Why do bikes need Allen keys?

[degrom]

Why do bike manufacturers mainly use nuts/bolt's that use allen keys?

Where can I get new ones when they get lost? (Not at my local Bunnings!!!)

[nudemetalz]

Bert, go to the Warehouse and buy a complete set for about $6. They're crap quality but will do the trick.
If you need borrow any of the extra big ones, let me know.

Answer to first question, phillips screws round off easier !!

[degrom]

Bert, go to the Warehouse and buy a complete set for about $6. They're crap quality but will do the trick.
If you need borrow any of the extra big ones, let me know.

Answer to first question, phillips screws round off easier !!

Thanks... I have the $6 allen key set....

The problem is I keep on misplacing the nut's and bolt's.... :second:
(Thanks again for helping with the bike.. :rockon: )

[Clivoris]

Maate. We have an outfit in Porirua called Coastal Fasteners. They can supply any bolt or nut you can think of for virtually any application, in any quantity you want. They constantly suprise me when I go in for things like a 5x110 ml Allen head bolt...just the one thanks. Always helpful and cheap. There must be similar over in the Hutt.

[dawnrazor]

any bike shop will be able to supply you with allen bolts, failing that mitre10?

[Goblin]

I got mine from my local engineering supply shop, and before that Mercer Stainless. They have all sorts. Cheap as chips too.

Answer to your first question...phuck nose.

[degrom]

Maate. We have an outfit in Porirua called Coastal Fasteners. They can supply any bolt or nut you can think of for virtually any application, in any quantity you want. They constantly suprise me when I go in for things like a 5x110 ml Allen head bolt...just the one thanks. Always helpful and cheap. There must be similar over in the Hutt.

Now that is really useful to know... I will have a talk with them and get the needed supplies I am after. I need to get my XV750 bolted together and on Trade-me.

[Shaun]

Why do bike manufacturers mainly use nuts/bolt's that use allen keys?

Where can I get new ones when they get lost? (Not at my local Bunnings!!!)

1st ? Cheaper to make, less metal, harder to round off when assembling with production line monkeys

2nd? OOOO Know,s for your town

1st bit if advice, get a tray to put your bolts etc in when you take them off

ie, wallet in pants pocket

[degrom]

I got mine from my local engineering supply shop, and before that Mercer Stainless. They have all sorts. Cheap as chips too.

Answer to your first question...phuck nose.

I think Nudemetalz hit it the nail on the head... How many allen key type bolt's have you stripped lately? (I can count a few Phillips ones!!!)

[Clivoris]

Now that is really useful to know... I will have a talk with them and get the needed supplies I am after. I need to get my XV750 bolted together and on Trade-me.

They might be able to put you onto someone closer, but they have been very friendly chaps. Apparently some of the local Harley riders have contonned onto them as well and make frequent, vibration induced visits:dodge:

[degrom]

1st ? Cheaper to make, less metal, harder to round off when assembling with production line monkeys

2nd? OOOO Know,s for your town

1st bit if advice, get a tray to put your bolts etc in when you take them off

ie, wallet in pants pocket

LOL... How did you know I keep on loosing my wallet!!!


Thanks... I will keep that in mind. Norther good tip is that if it's only a bolt, screw it back in the place where it came from even if the part it holds on is taken of... Then you only undo it and put the part back... You get what I am trying to say...

[degrom]

They might be able to put you onto someone closer, but they have been very friendly chaps. Apparently some of the local Harley riders have contonned onto them as well and make frequent, vibration induced visits:dodge:

LOL... I thought Americans liked screwing things...

Even if it's in a Phillips form.. :dodge:

[Goblin]

How many allen key type bolt's have you stripped lately? (I can count a few Phillips ones!!!)
Fark yes! and the allen keys are good in that you put anything handy on the end to get some leverage.

[nudemetalz]

Schrodoco in Tory Street here in Welly CBD is quite good. That's where I buy my screws etc.



(Thanks again for helping with the bike.. :rockon: )

Nah worries at all !!!

[Mom]

get a tray to put your bolts etc in when you take them off

ie, wallet in pants pocket

Girlfriends hands/pockets.........:innocent:

[Mom]

Answer to your first question...phuck nose.

More robust methinks..less able to round out under pressure.........if I was smart enough to comment from an engineering perpective it is probably something to do with even pressure being applied to wider surfaces, avoiding the whole..........GRRRRRRRRRR F#@K me now I have to drill it out thang happening.......

[Motu]

Nothing to do with them rounding off when being dismantled....they make bikes to be assembled quickly,not to be pulled apart.Phillips head screws were used for several decades...the change has come from consumer demand.Allen screws look cool because the racers use them,hence production race rep bikes got them...now they all have them.Like airconditioning or power windows in cars - you never saw them 20 years ago,now every car has it.

[Animal]

Hey Bert,

Unless you buy cheap, nasty, evil shit tools, the metal used is is always heat-treated / processed to be a helluva lot harder than the nuts or bolts they're undoing. If the Allen key suddenly becomes rounded because the hardness if the bolt exceeds the hardness of the Allen key, you should give yourself a healthy kick in the arse for buying crap tools. If the jaws of a spanner you're using to undo a hex bolt suddenly spread open like a Hillbrow whore, the same applies: Crap tools vs hardened steel bolts. Unlike spanners, which need a large turning arc to undo the subject bolt, an Allen key - especially those with a square drive socket base - require very little turning arc, and you don't run the risk of demolishing your knuckles on adjacent bike parts. I don't think I've answered your question but it was a helluva lot of fun trying to!

[krash]

Hey man, Coastal fasteners are on abel smith st in wellington. Can't go wrong.:yes:

[moko]

...the change has come from consumer demand.Allen screws look cool because the racers use them,hence production race rep bikes got them...now they all have them.

Hit the nail on the head with that one.There was a time when accessory sellers were making a fortune selling Allen bolts to replace the invariably poor quality fasteners fitted as standard to bikes.Be grateful,just about any job on any bike was made twice as hard as it should be because of crappy bolt heads rounding off and it was pretty standard practice to get replacement Phillips screws before you started any job where you`d come across them,biggest mystery was always how the Japs got them to tighten in the first place because no matter how careful you`d inevitably trash the bloody things getting them out.

[Pixie]

Hit the nail on the head with that one.There was a time when accessory sellers were making a fortune selling Allen bolts to replace the invariably poor quality fasteners fitted as standard to bikes.Be grateful,just about any job on any bike was made twice as hard as it should be because of crappy bolt heads rounding off and it was pretty standard practice to get replacement Phillips screws before you started any job where you`d come across them,biggest mystery was always how the Japs got them to tighten in the first place because no matter how careful you`d inevitably trash the bloody things getting them out.

The Phillips screws weren't poor quality.
The "mechanics" that use the wrong sized driver or pozidrive drivers on them were the ones responsible for buggering the heads.

[Ixion]

Not entirely. The screws were tightened at the factory using air operated equipment. Often they were very tight (and I believe tended to tighten up in use, too).

Removing them with an ordinary Phillips screwdriver could be very difficult. The design of the Phillips screw is such that , unless a considerable axial force is maintained, the driver , with its angled tips, will tend to "cam" up the slots in the screw. Once that happens the resulting damage to the head makes removal very difficult.

I never had any problems, using an impact driver. But not everyone has one

The Allen head, having no angled faces does not have this problem.

[TLDV8]

Ducati V-Twins have used capscrews as standard since 1971,maybe the singles going back to the 1960's also.
The phillips head screws used on japanese bikes in the 1970's were made of cheese,if they were anything like tight they were not going to be removed with anything short of an impact driver,not to mention secondhand bikes and previous owners backyard mechanic's.You can actually torque a capscrew with ease which is half the problem solved.
The force applied to a capscrew is direct to the rotation unlike a cheesey screw.
Capscrew's are available from any Engineering supplies outlet or fastener retailer.As close as the Yellow Pages or an a'Courts Business Handbook.
As far as Allen Key's (imho) you get what you pay for,buy a quality set and they will last the distance.Home use,that could be decades.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hit the nail on the head with that one.There was a time when accessory sellers were making a fortune selling Allen bolts to replace the invariably poor quality fasteners fitted as standard to bikes.Be grateful,just about any job on any bike was made twice as hard as it should be because of crappy bolt heads rounding off and it was pretty standard practice to get replacement Phillips screws before you started any job where you`d come across them,biggest mystery was always how the Japs got them to tighten in the first place because no matter how careful you`d inevitably trash the bloody things getting them out.

absolutely! one of the first tools I bought was an impact driver so I could get shitty Philips screws out of old Jap bikes. My CB400 still had them, and Ive bought replacements (mmmm polished, pity the cases carry their 30 year "patina"). Back to the old standard WD40, impact driver and a 3 pound hammer. I used to get completely livid when a ten minute job turned into an epic because I had rounded off a phillips screw.

You get handy with drills and ezy outs and stuff like that though......

[HenryDorsetCase]

oh yeah, one of those little magnetic trays is useful. I have a roller stool with a a tray under it as well for collecting bits and bobs.

and Im pretty sure the tradezone Xmas catalogue had long handle quality allen keys (with ball ends too) for reasonable money... about $30??

[ManDownUnder]

Allen keys are made of high tensile steel (i.e. they're damned strong) and their head design is small, relatively discreet and can easily be recessed into things - drill a whole the same diameter as the allen key head and you're good to go.

Try doing that with a hex head bolt... high tensile or not.

[Motu]

Which comes down to ''it looks cool'',and that's why production bikes have allen head fasteners.

[Brian d marge]

The head on an allen screw is smaller . ie smaller area , so the forces are distributed over a smaller area , not good

Thats why the washers ( head design ) are built into the factorybolts , load spread , espesially when used with High silicon castin alloy , and a stack of other desighn concideration ,,, sorry bit rushed so crap answer ,,, but given choice I use the factory bolts ,,,except where a protrusion could hurt someone in case ocf a crash ..eg top yoke

Stephen

[froggyfrenchman]

Cap screws are made of high tensile steel (the same grade as average brands allen keys) so you do really need good allen keys. One of the major attractions of capscrews is the thread is cut right up to the head there is no "blank" section of flank.

Remember when buying capscrews for your bike, the anodised coloured ones may look pretty, but you can only anodise alloy, so they have roughly the same tensile strength of old cheese. Be gentle tightening these and only use for decorative purposes where no strength is needed!

Just 2c from an biker/engineer.

For the record, almost every bolt on my bike and any machinery i build is a cap screw. They are better in all the ways listed by everyone in this thread

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not entirely. The screws were tightened at the factory using air operated equipment. Often they were very tight (and I believe tended to tighten up in use, too).

Removing them with an ordinary Phillips screwdriver could be very difficult. The design of the Phillips screw is such that , unless a considerable axial force is maintained, the driver , with its angled tips, will tend to "cam" up the slots in the screw. Once that happens the resulting damage to the head makes removal very difficult.

I never had any problems, using an impact driver. But not everyone has one

The Allen head, having no angled faces does not have this problem.

Maybe why 'posi-drive' was sometimes used? They're a bit 'flatter' in the bottom of the grove no?? One problem I don't think anyone has mentioned with allen head bolts is I feel......it's way too easy to over tighten things if you're heavy handed....which can cause real serious problems!!

[Motu]

What puzzles me is why Allen....what if Desmond invented them....would we then be calling them Desmond keys?

[imdying]

What puzzles me is why Allen....what if Desmond invented them....would we then be calling them Desmond keys?

Wonder no more... it's just a trademark for a particular brand of hex keys:


Generically known as a hex key, this tool is also commonly referred to by one of many trademark or brand names. "Allen wrench" was originally a trademark of Allen Manufacturing Company in Hartford, Connecticut in 1943.

[degrom]

What puzzles me is why Allen....what if Desmond invented them....would we then be calling them Desmond keys?

Good point...

More facts:

* The tool is simple, small and light.
* The contact surfaces of the screw or bolt are protected from external damage.
* The tool can be used with a headless screw.
* The bolt can be inserted into its socket using the key.
* There are six contact surfaces between bolt and driver.
* Torque is constrained by the length and thickness of the key.
* Very small bolt heads can be accommodated.

Name comes from:

Generically known as a hex key, this tool is also commonly referred to by one of many trademark or brand names. "Allen wrench" was originally a trademark of Allen Manufacturing Company in Hartford, Connecticut in 1943. In non-English speaking parts of Europe, it is usually known as an "Unbrako key" (also often misspelled as "Umbrako"), which is a brand name established in 1911.

[Ixion]

Allen wench ? I thought that was sweet Barbara Allen ? Ah now there was a wench that was Allen screwing at its best.

[Goblin]

Allen wench ? I thought that was sweet Barbara Allen ? Ah now there was a wench that was Allen screwing at its best.
:gob: You know my Grandmother??

[Motu]

And I don't like Phillips screws either - they should be Paul screws.

[Crasherfromwayback]

What about Dick Driver...what shape is that?

[pritch]

biggest mystery was always how the Japs got them to tighten in the first place because no matter how careful you`d inevitably trash the bloody things getting them out.

Not quite fair.

The main supplier of BSA unit single parts in the UK listed complete sets of stainless Allen screws to replace all the external case screws on the bike. At the time they were perceived as being the "quality" alternative...
Yes, I bought a set.

One Hornet owner I know recently bought a set of gold plated Allen screws for his new pride and joy.

These options apparently still exist....

[Bonez]

Unlike spanners, which need a large turning arc to undo the subject bolt, an Allen key - especially those with a square drive socket base - require very little turning arc, and you don't run the risk of demolishing your knuckles on adjacent bike parts. I don't think I've answered your question but it was a helluva lot of fun trying to!Sometimes one does need to some sort of an extenion (bit of pipe or ring end of a spanner) because there is not enough leverage available with the key to loosen allen head bolts. So the arch is therefore extended. This is more likely to deduce the risk of bleeding knuckles than using the key by itself. I find they are generally too short and fingers slip. Allen head bolts can be very stubborn if not been undone for a decade or two you know. Had to resort to the ol hammer a few times to give them a "wee" tap to break the threads also.

[What?]

1st bit if advice, get a tray to put your bolts etc in when you take them off

Yep - my favourite is an old muffin tray; gives me 12 little dishes so like fasteners, or those from same place, can be kept together.
Go forth and rob your mum's kitchen (just don't get caught).

[TLDV8]

Nice if you want to torque capscrews,saves having to find a piece of pipe to put on the allen key :laugh:

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[toymachine]

How much for a set like that?

Found a page with the torque settings for all the bolts on the vfr I wanna fix up...

Though for general bolts around the bike is torque an issue?

[erik]

Yep - my favourite is an old muffin tray; gives me 12 little dishes so like fasteners, or those from same place, can be kept together.
Go forth and rob your mum's kitchen (just don't get caught).
Egg cartons or trays are another option if your mum or mrs doesn't like you pinching the muffin trays.

[The Stranger]

Why do bike manufacturers mainly use nuts/bolt's that use allen keys?

Where can I get new ones when they get lost? (Not at my local Bunnings!!!)

I made a small modification to the brakes on the GSXR and wanted some high tensile bolts.

Bloody hard to find a standard bolt that was greater than grade 8.8. I had no problem locating Allen head bolts at grade 12.9. I was told that you only get 12.9 in an allen head. So maybe there is also a quality issue here in some cases.

[pritch]

my favourite is an old muffin tray; gives me 12 little dishes


For bigger parts like fairings I like the hint I saw in a bike mag. Get a cardboard box and draw a picture of the part on the box. Poke holes in the box at the appropropriate places on the drawing and as each screw is removed poke it in the relevant hole.

[Bonez]

Though for general bolts around the bike is torque an issue?Just tighten them up till the threads strip, then back off half a turn.

[Motu]

Have you worked on my bike before? Just wondering.....

[Bonez]

Valuable lesson I learnt working on my old Hondas. I'm sure it's cheese they use in the castings..................

[Motu]

I found cheese too - so it was you!

[Oscar]

What puzzles me is why Allen....what if Desmond invented them....would we then be calling them Desmond keys?

Good thing I didn't invent them..."...could you pass the grumpycahnt key please?":yes:

[HenryDorsetCase]

One Hornet owner I know recently bought a set of gold plated Allen screws for his new pride and joy.
....

oooooOOOOOOoooooo where from??

*slap me for gods sake*

[McJim]

I was just looking at some of the cheap flat packed furniture we bought (like the computer desk I'm sitting at) they all use allan key fittings so that puts modern bikes in the same quality bracket as flat packed furniture.....hmmm....anyone wanna buy a VTR 250? - I'm gonna buy a cage.

[jonbuoy]

Allen keys still look pretty mint even after being used a few times, screws get all chewed up especially when people use a pozi in a philips and vice versa although they say you can they still don't fit right.

[Pixie]

Not entirely. The screws were tightened at the factory using air operated equipment. Often they were very tight (and I believe tended to tighten up in use, too).

Removing them with an ordinary Phillips screwdriver could be very difficult. The design of the Phillips screw is such that , unless a considerable axial force is maintained, the driver , with its angled tips, will tend to "cam" up the slots in the screw.

I beg to differ.
If this was the case the air tool would "cam up" on the head when the screw was fastened.
I never rounded a screw that was pristine and rarely had to resort to an impact driver.
I've also seen many people try to undo a # 3 phillips ( the one commonly used to retain cases on Japanese motors ) with a # 2 driver.

[Ixion]

They didn't because the air driver had a powerful longituditional force applied to it. ie it was firmly held down into the "slot". That was (and is) the secret to undoing them. Lots of pressure along the shaft of the screwdriver. I seldom (I'd like to say never, but I'm not tempting fate) mangled a head. But there have been some too tight to undo without recourse to the impact driver.

[Pixie]

One of the major attractions of capscrews is the thread is cut right up to the head there is no "blank" section of flank.



Whether a fastener has an unthreaded shank section is pure related to whether it is a bolt style fastener or a machine screw.
Capscrews are available as bolt style (partially unthreaded ) as well as machine screws
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/glossary.htm
http://euler9.tripod.com/bolt-database/22.html

[Ixion]

There are also good reasons why an unthreaded shank is often desireable.

[Bonez]

There are also good reasons why an unthreaded shank is often desireable.I was going to point that out too. Also some are recessed-dia of the threads groove or less, and some are the same dia as the threads outside diamension.

[Pixie]

There are also good reasons why an unthreaded shank is often desireable.

Yes.
The unused threaded section can "saw" away at the hole in some cases.

[Ixion]

It can also act to draw oil past gaskets, along the thread . And in some cases tightening a "fully threaded" bolt retaining a cover or such like , can cause the thread to "pick up" on the retained cover, twisting it (the cover) or subjecting it to a non clamping force. This will "unwind" with time causing the torque on the bolt to also relax - ie it "comes loose", to the vexation of the owner.

If the designer specified an unthreaded shank, you may be sure he had a good reason to do so. A wise man respects such design decisions.

[pritch]

oooooOOOOOOoooooo where from??


OK in case anyone was interested I enquired as to the source of the gold allen screws. (I forgot to ask if they are anodised or plated or whatever tf?)

They can be obtained from Eurobike Wholesale through your local dealer. The cost for the 5mm screws fitted to the Hornet was quoted as $1.90 each.