911 conspiracy on tv 16 december

[WINJA]

I Usually Dont Believe This Kinda Stuff But They Seem To Have Some Good Points , I Still Havent Figured Out What Their Getting At Tho , One Thing I Know Is Ill Never Forget Where I Was And What I Was Doing When I Heard The News And Saw The Pictures , I Was At Home Having A Late Start From Mork Cause I Was Waiting For Karl Katte Furniature To Drop Off My Custom Made Sofas

[Toaster]

I'm not one to jump into conspiracy theories. I still remember waking up and watching the TV. I was just unbelieveable. It must have been horrific inside those buildings. What a way to go out.

[WINJA]

The Thing That Shocks Me The Most Is How Thick Gw Bush Is , Drrrrr Fool Me Once Shame On You Fool Me Twice And .......um Yeah Um Mmmmmmmm Ooo Aaahhh Ddddddddrrrrrrrrr

[krash]

Theres a Documentary out called Loose Change the story of 9/11 or something along those lines, i watched it a while ago and its one of the most interesting takes on the whole incident that ive seen. This about sums things up

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

we all know GW is a fucktard. Watch The Daily show with John Stewart its good for a giggle :whocares:

[MVnut]

I don't need a conspiracy to drive my 911.............just petrol:yes:

[cowpoos]

I Usually Dont Believe This Kinda Stuff But They Seem To Have Some Good Points , I Still Havent Figured Out What Their Getting At Tho , One Thing I Know Is Ill Never Forget Where I Was And What I Was Doing When I Heard The News And Saw The Pictures , I Was At Home Having A Late Start From Mork Cause I Was Waiting For Karl Katte Furniature To Drop Off My Custom Made Sofas
whats up with your writing???? capitals at the start of every word???

[sAsLEX]

whats up with your writing???? capitals at the start of every word???

HE WROTE IN ALL CAPS AND THERE IS CODE THAT CHANGES THAT BACK TO WHAT YOU SEE

[gunnyrob]

T'was a load of twaddle. If the US military flew tanker aircraft into the buildings, what happened to the passengers on board the airliners? Did the Gummint execute them all at some undisclosed location to cover up the facts?

As for the flashes that occured just as the planes were about to hit the Twin towers, How good were the pilots to pick the exact windows to hit on a building that size!

The terrorists hijacked 4 airliners and flew them into buildings. That's it.

Thank god the Poms got the buggers with liquid explosives in their luggage in July before they could blow up airliners over the Atlantic.

[Skyryder]

Did not see it. But the definitive theory of all of this is Loose Change. The only people who belive that their own govt. attacked the World Trade Centre are the militia types, 2nd ammenders, conspiracy buffs, fundamentalists, and the usual fanatics without a brain in their head. Loose Change has been soundly rebuffed.

But it won't go away. There's a whole industry out there on consiracy's. There's just took much money to be made in writing about these things.

Skyryder

[pervert]

Loose Change does not dispute that the Airliners hit the world trade buildings.

The Pentagon is the disputed issue, all video evidence was confiscated and has never been seen. Take a look at the photos after it was hit, where the hell is the fucking plane pieces...???

[Skyryder]

Loose Change does not dispute that the Airliners hit the world trade buildings.

The Pentagon is the disputed issue, all video evidence was confiscated and has never been seen. Take a look at the photos after it was hit, where the hell is the fucking plane pieces...???

Loose Change postulates that it was the American Government that orchestrated the attack on the World Trade Centre and by that defination the Pentagon.

This from http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=Pentagon

As for the consfication, the Pentagon is the American Military HQ. Not surprising that little of any photgraphic evidence has come to light.

There's a bit more to the link. I've not read this particular one but others.

Skyyrder

[kiwisfly]

Watched a bit of it last night.
Certainly brings up questions on the Pentagon crash like:
All planes were trans-Atlantic flight with large amounts of fuel at impact. You saw the result on the WTC crashes with fire etc but not the same on the Pentagon? In fact photos show office furniture, PC screens intact & unscathed & a stand with a pile of papers - this is right on the edge of building collapse?
If the width of the impact was x and the width of the plane was xx how come there's not a whole punched in the side of the building to the width of xx, or bits of plane wreckage lying around?
As pointed out, where is any discernible plane wreckage, certainly at the least some significant tail section?
Lastly, to me the above building collapse looked far too clean to be a massive airliner slewing through effectively 9ft of reinforced concrete.

Enough there to be a "tad" cynical about the whole thing!

[ZorsT]

False flag operations were planned in the 60's (Operation Northwoods). I wouldn't be surprised if it was the work of the US government.

[onearmedbandit]

Meh, I really don't know who was behind the 9/11 attacks. Heard most of the conspiracy theories, some have some interesting points, along with some very random shit. But what I do know, or remember, is that within 2 weeks of the attacks there was a movie on TV here about a female CIA assassin (can't remember the name, may have actually been 'Assassin') who is being hunted by the CIa after disappearing for a few years (something like that). Anyway, in one particular scene she is held captive by the CIA and one of their guys tells her of a plan they had. A plan in which they were going to leave a gas tanker laden with fuel outside a major inner city building and blow it up. They already had a Middle Eastern male who they were going to 'kill' in a car crash fleeing the scene, painting it to look like a terrorist attack so they could get more public support and more funding from the US Govt. I thought at the time that it was kind of uncanny.

[pervert]

Loose Change postulates that it was the American Government that orchestrated the attack on the World Trade Centre and by that defination the Pentagon.

They sure do, but they don't dispute that the Airliners hit the WTC buildings, just the Pentagon.

Like many others I find it strange that 3 buildings (let's not forget tower 7) all collapsed on the same day, allegedly due to fire weakening the structural steel...when not once has that ever happened in history before. Even when similar design buildings have burned for over 20 times longer.

I don't know what happened or who organised it, and I don't claim to. One thing is for sure though, the official 911 commission organisation and subsequent findings are not even close to the truth.

[WINJA]

Loose Change does not dispute that the Airliners hit the world trade buildings.

The Pentagon is the disputed issue, all video evidence was confiscated and has never been seen. Take a look at the photos after it was hit, where the hell is the fucking plane pieces...???

NO PICES CAUSE IT WAS A BUNKER BUSTING BOMB ACCORDING TO THE PROGRAM , I LAUGHED AT FIRST BUT WHEN THEY PRESENTED EVIDENCE IT MADE SENSE

[pervert]

NO PICES CAUSE IT WAS A BUNKER BUSTING BOMB ACCORDING TO THE PROGRAM , I LAUGHED AT FIRST BUT WHEN THEY PRESENTED EVIDENCE IT MADE SENSE

You can present information to say anything...Loose Change presents information saying it was a cruise missile...and backed that up with pretty good reason..

The whole situation is so hard to diagnose because there are so many different stories and accounts, witnesses can't even agree with each other in what they saw.

Certian facts do tend to stand out though, such as the the guy who's plane allegedly crashed into the pentagon, had retired from working at the pentagon and taken a job at American Airlines less than a year before the event.

No matter who you believe, Loose Change is worth a watch. The whole hour plus long movie is available to watch on Google Video from memory.

[Skyryder]

No matter how much evidence is put up against a conspiracy theory there are some who simply refuse to beilieve factual evidence. The crop circle consiracy is evedence of this. http://www.scifimoviepage.com/dvd/cropcircles-dvd.html

Loose Change has been thoughly debunked. It just seems sad that there are people who see things that can not be seen and refused to see things that can be clearly seen. The above link demonstrates that and the myth that 9/11 was part of a government attack so that they could wage war on terror or use that as an excuse for the invasion of Iraq etc etc is nothing but another example blindness. Bit like the Flat Earth Society
Yes consiracy theories are interesting and raise questions. But it is also an industry that is self serving. Look at it that way first and if no answers can be found...........................??????????????????


Skyryder

[pervert]

No matter how much evidence is put up against a conspiracy theory there are some who simply refuse to beilieve factual evidence. The crop circle consiracy is evedence of this. http://www.scifimoviepage.com/dvd/cropcircles-dvd.html

Loose Change has been thoughly debunked. It just seems sad that there are people who see things that can not be seen and refused to see things that can be clearly seen. The above link demonstrates that and the myth that 9/11 was part of a government attack so that they could wage war on terror or use that as an excuse for the invasion of Iraq etc etc is nothing but another example blindness. Bit like the Flat Earth Society
Yes consiracy theories are interesting and raise questions. But it is also an industry that is self serving. Look at it that way first and if no answers can be found...........................??????????????????


Skyryder

The official 911 commission reports are also full of flaws and holes, and can be "thoughly debunked" as you put it.

You don't know what really happened and neither does the vast majority of the world.

[WINJA]

And It Was Interesting How They Said The Government Had Planned To Do Terrorsit Acts On Its Own Citizens In The 70s To Get The American Citizens In Behind A War On Cuba

[pervert]

And It Was Interesting How They Said The Government Had Planned To Do Terrorsit Acts On Its Own Citizens In The 70s To Get The American Citizens In Behind A War On Cuba

That sure is interesting, and those facts come from from declassified government reports.

[The_Dover]

the 911 is just a beetle on Pee

[riffer]

Loose Change has been thoughly debunked.

As has the debunking of Loose Change.

So where is the $160 Billion of gold gone then Skyrider? This amount of theft makes the Labour government look like the mislaid some milk money?

[Kickaha]

You can present information to say anything...Loose Change presents information saying it was a cruise missile...and backed that up with pretty good reason..

How did they explain away all the eye witness accounts of people that saw the plane hit?

[pervert]

How did they explain away all the eye witness accounts of people that saw the plane hit?

They didn't, but there is also all the eye witness accounts of people that saw an object that was not a plane hit the building.

You should do some research on the matter, you clearly need it.

[The_Dover]

How did they explain away all the eye witness accounts of people that saw the plane hit?

they were all smoking crack.

crack is american pee.

[riffer]

How do you explain away all the people who still see Elvis? :dodge:

[Skyryder]

The official 911 commission reports are also full of flaws and holes, and can be "thoughly debunked" as you put it.

You don't know what really happened and neither does the vast majority of the world.

No I don't but there are probabilities and possibilites. I'ts possible that the Americans did this to themselves but more probable that they 'did not.' It seems to be part of the Amrican culture to devise conspiracy theories. This has never occurred in Britain with the bus bombing, not has it occured in Spain with the Basques or for that matter the Madrid rail crash, nor in Japan with the Tube poisening. Conspiriacies tend to develop in America where there is a strong tradition of distrust in the Federal Government in particular.

Some is well founded as in the Waco incident.

Just out of interest I do find conspiracy theories 'intersting,' but usully with a bit of diligent research most, not all, but most can be discounted. 9/11 falls into the discounted theory. One other interesting thing about conspiracy theories is the more complicated the 'event' the more likelhood that someone will come up with a conspiracy theory. Both the Man landing on the moon and 9/11 fits these two example easily as there are a lot of factors to be considered with the result that much can be questioned.

Skyryder

[pervert]

It's not even a case of whether they did it to themselves or not.

There are so many more possibilities, such as the government knowing it was going to happen and not doing anything to prevent it, or even assisiting to make it happen.

[Skyryder]

NO PICES CAUSE IT WAS A BUNKER BUSTING BOMB ACCORDING TO THE PROGRAM , I LAUGHED AT FIRST BUT WHEN THEY PRESENTED EVIDENCE IT MADE SENSE

That's what makes consiracy theories interesting. They make sense and as a result there must be more than the authorites are telling. Conspiricies by their nature do not tell the other side of the story. They only tell what is relevent to their argument. Mind you Governments do this too.

Skyryder

[WINJA]

How did they explain away all the eye witness accounts of people that saw the plane hit?

YOUR EYES WILL SOMETIMES SEE WHAT MAKES SENSE TO THE BRAIN, A MISSILE WOULD MAKE NO SENSE , IF IT WAS A PLANE WHERE ARE THE BITS OF PLANE?

[pervert]

They only tell what is relevent to their argument. Mind you Governments do this too.

I'm relieved you added the second sentence, you'd look mighty stupid otherwise.

[terbang]

So where is the (supposed) plane and all its occupants that supposedly hit the pentagon..?

[WINJA]

So where is the (supposed) plane and all its occupants that supposedly hit the pentagon..?

THERES A LOT OF OCEAN TO LAND IT IN , 100 METERS OF WATER COULD HIDE ANYTHING

[pervert]

So where is the (supposed) plane and all its occupants that supposedly hit the pentagon..?

Have a read of Wikipeida, or even watch the movie. It can't hurt to learn something new, even if it is a conspiracy theory.

[Kickaha]

So where is the (supposed) plane and all its occupants that supposedly hit the pentagon..?

Parked in a garage out the back with a cover over it,they fed all the people onboard through a Stargate to populate Atlantis

[terbang]

Have a read of Wikipeida, or even watch the movie. It can't hurt to learn something new, even if it is a conspiracy theory.


Calm down there old fella I wasn't being cynical. Just wondering where people think it went thats all..?

[pervert]

Calm down there old fella I wasn't being cynical. Just wondering where people think it went thats all..?

...and I'm not uncalm...merely giving some advice...should I have used some smilies??? :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

[terbang]

THERES A LOT OF OCEAN TO LAND IT IN , 100 METERS OF WATER COULD HIDE ANYTHING


Agreed.. Oh and you land on land and ditch into the sea..(I know pedantic prick)..

[WINJA]

When The Rainbow Warriour Sunk Who Woulda Thought It Would Be A So Called Nation Friendly To Us That Woulda Done It , Anyone Pointing The Finger To The Dirty French First Off Woulda Been Called Outrageous , So Why Is It Not Plausable That Someone As Fucked Up As Gw Bush Would Fuck Up His Own Citizens

[WINJA]

Agreed.. Oh and you land on land and ditch into the sea..(I know pedantic prick)..

WHAT ABOUT WHEN A FLYING BOAT LANDS IN A LAKE?

[Satch]

I also fully reccomend everyone watches loose change. Can be found on Google video and you tube.

Even if your not a conspiracy theorist, it makes you think a bit, and opens the box in your mind

[terbang]

WHAT ABOUT WHEN A FLYING BOAT LANDS IN A LAKE?

A water landing..! Thats aviation for ya..

[Skyryder]

As has the debunking of Loose Change.

So where is the $160 Billion of gold gone then Skyrider? This amount of theft makes the Labour government look like the mislaid some milk money?

http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/nov/17wtc.htm


http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/05/top-lies-and-deceptions-in-loose_17.html

See 37. Over half the worlds gold supply in the WCT. That's more than for Knox has. I don't think so.


The best for last.

http://911yj.blogspot.com/2006/08/wtc-gold-issue.html

Like I said there are always answers if you want to look for them. Seems to me Riffer that you have believed the answer of Loose Change with out knowing 'all' of the question.

Loose Change is Bullshit, so it's got some perfume to it to make it more acceptable but still it's bullshit.

Skyryder

[terbang]

Watching that programme last nite, I too was shocked at the pentagon footage and reckon there is something dodgey happening there. You don't squeeze a fully laden 757 down a 14 foot hole without having all the flying surfaces (wings and shit) being thrown all over the place.

[Indiana_Jones]

I believe what the 43 year old virgin on his grandma's computer says lol

-Indy

[Skyryder]

When The Rainbow Warriour Sunk Who Woulda Thought It Would Be A So Called Nation Friendly To Us That Woulda Done It , Anyone Pointing The Finger To The Dirty French First Off Woulda Been Called Outrageous , So Why Is It Not Plausable That Someone As Fucked Up As Gw Bush Would Fuck Up His Own Citizens

Conspiracy theories give rise to plausable explanations. Prior to the arrest of of Marfat and Prieur the public had no knowledge of a 'French connection" other than the yaucht Ouvea was from New Calidonia. There was no French connection untill the arrest and as such no linkage.

[Steam]

The Russians bombed one of their own apartment buildings and blamed it on the Chechens, becasue public opinion of their war there was softening.
They as much as admitted that, and several high-ranking in the FSB (KGB) were fired for incompetence, from what I remember.
SO it's not beyond the realm of doubt.
I'm downloading Loose Change 2nd Edition right now on Bittorrent, will watch it tomorrow.
I think Osama did it though, but it will be fun to see the doco just for kicks.

[WINJA]

Conspiracy theories give rise to plausable explanations. Prior to the arrest of of Marfat and Prieur the public had no knowledge of a 'French connection" other than the yaucht Ouvea was from New Calidonia. There was no French connection untill the arrest and as such no linkage.

AND UNTILL PROOF WAS OFFERED THE ACUSATION OF THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT WOULDA BEEN A CONSPIRICY THEORY AS WHO WOULD BELIEVE A DMOCRATIC NORMAL TYPE COUNTRY WOULD CARRY OUT A TERRORIST ACT ON ANOTHER NORMAL DEMOCRATIC TYPE COUNTRY .

AS FOR THE RAINBOW WARRIOUR IT STILL PISSES ME OFF , WE SHOULDA HUNG THOSE DIRTY FRENCHMEN INSTEAD WE SENT THEM HOME , AND THE AMERICANS SHOULDA EMBARGOED FRENCH IMPORTS YET NONE OF OUR SO CALLED FRIENDS BACKED US UP , ITS HARD FOR ME TO HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE VICTIMS OF 911 WHEN THEY REALLY DIDNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT US

[KATWYN]

Pretty amazing how the airliner that flew into the pentagon managed
to come screaming in ......and not knock down one of the lamp posts/posts
and various other obstacles that would have been in its path on route to its resting place in the pentagon........I would have thought that the plane would have had a wake of destruction in its path and have taken everything out,considering how long a runway has to be to allow for a landing plane.........I didn't see that amount of barron land surrounding the pentagon

[Steam]

I do my part to remind the French that their country is a Terrorist State. Whenever I meed a French tourist at work, I say "oh have you been hassled much about the French doing the terrorist bombing of the Rainbow warrior? Cos some people I know really hate the french here in New Zealand"
and they go all quiet and look away.
Cocksuckers. No wonder they caved in so fast in WW2, they love world domination.

[terbang]

THEY REALLY DIDNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT US

And they still don't...

[WINJA]

Pretty amazing how the airliner that flew into the pentagon managed
to come screaming in ......and not knock down one of the lamp posts/posts
and various other obstacles that would have been in its path on route to its resting place in the pentagon........I would have thought that the plane would have had a wake of destruction in its path and have taken everything out,considering how long a runway has to be to allow for a landing plane.........I didn't see that amount of barron land surrounding the pentagon

YOUR SO HOT WHEN YOU GET TECHNICAL.
DID YOU ALSO SEE THE PICS WHERE THE ENTRY HOLE TO THE PENTAGON WAS TINY IT DID NOT AT ALL LOOK LIKE AN AIR CRAFT THAT BIG HIT THERE

[Skyryder]

AND UNTILL PROOF WAS OFFERED THE ACUSATION OF THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT WOULDA BEEN A CONSPIRICY THEORY AS WHO WOULD BELIEVE A DMOCRATIC NORMAL TYPE COUNTRY WOULD CARRY OUT A TERRORIST ACT ON ANOTHER NORMAL DEMOCRATIC TYPE COUNTRY .

AS FOR THE RAINBOW WARRIOUR IT STILL PISSES ME OFF , WE SHOULDA HUNG THOSE DIRTY FRENCHMEN INSTEAD WE SENT THEM HOME , AND THE AMERICANS SHOULDA EMBARGOED FRENCH IMPORTS YET NONE OF OUR SO CALLED FRIENDS BACKED US UP , ITS HARD FOR ME TO HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE VICTIMS OF 911 WHEN THEY REALLY DIDNT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT US

Well I'm with you on the Rainbow Warrior. But you miss what I'm saying. Conspiricies need a connection. The connection with 9/11 are many and have to do with the American Government. There's no conspiracy against the Brits, French or anyone else becasue there is no connection with them to 9/11

Conspiricies do not offer proof, they suggest other altenitives (subjective) from the official explanation. No one has proved that the Americans were involved in 9/11 just a series of hypothesis to substantuate the theory that the Federal government was involved in 9/11. Conspiricy theories, all of them, exist becasue there is no way disproove the allegations.

That's my last word Winj.

This should keep some of you busy for a day or two.

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/cons/

Skyryder

[scumdog]

9-11 conspiracy theory? Mwahahahahaa!
The world has a lot of suckers that leap onto every conspiracy bandwagon that goes past their door.
I wonder what next years No1 conspiracy is going to be?:whistle: :wait:

Did you hear how the Govt wants all new cars to be fitted with GPS - only it's not just GPS, it's a system for controlling your speed, oooooh now THERE'S a conspiracy to consider eh?:yes:

[Winston001]

I haven't followed the links so will reserve judgement.

However in life I've found that Occams Razor is a useful tool. This is a logical rule which says:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Or put another way - the most simple explanation, is likely to be the right one.

Conspiracies are always complex explanations, requiring the collusion of human beings to create a secret plan, carry it out, and then keep it hidden from everyone else. When large organisations such as government agencies are involved, keeping the secret becomes impossible.

For example, the moon landing hoax. For this to be true, the conspirators would have needed to suborn literally thousands of people - scientists, astronomers, technicians, the astronaughts themselves, and journalists. How likely is it that all of these people were persuaded to lie and not blurt it out eventually?

So the 9/11 conspiracy requires people to set the bombs, people to die flying the planes, and organisers. How likely is it that?

The simple answer is that terrorists did exactly what we saw them do. Simple and all too terrible.

[ManDownUnder]

I haven't followed the links so will reserve judgement.

However in life I've found that Occams Razor is a useful tool. This is a logical rule which says:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Or put another way - the most simple explanation, is likely to be the right one.

Conspiracies are always complex explanations, requiring the collusion of human beings to create a secret plan, carry it out, and then keep it hidden from everyone else. When large organisations such as government agencies are involved, keeping the secret becomes impossible.

For example, the moon landing hoax. For this to be true, the conspirators would have needed to suborn literally thousands of people - scientists, astronomers, technicians, the astronaughts themselves, and journalists. How likely is it that all of these people were persuaded to lie and not blurt it out eventually?

So the 9/11 conspiracy requires people to set the bombs, people to die flying the planes, and organisers. How likely is it that?

The simple answer is that terrorists did exactly what we saw them do. Simple and all too terrible.

'ang about. Here's the theory - it wasn't a plane that hit the pentagon.

Supporting comments (for discussion only, I reserve judgement on what actually happened)


Plane hitting pentagon should have wrecked more stuff on approach
Hole in Pentagon wall too small
Bits found at scene too small for missing plane
What else is needed again?

[pervert]

'ang about. Here's the theory - it wasn't a plane that hit the pentagon.

Supporting comments (for discussion only, I reserve judgement on what actually happened)


Plane hitting pentagon should have wrecked more stuff on approach
Hole in Pentagon wall too small
Bits found at scene too small for missing plane
What else is needed again?


You're always going to get people who think they know best, when they don't even know 1 fact about the situation.

He states the most simple explanation is usually right, well the most simple explanation for the Pentagon is that it WAS NOT hit by a plane...but like I've said before, not I, or any of you know what REALLY happened.

[ManDownUnder]

...but like I've said before, not I, or any of you know what REALLY happened.


BULLSEYE! :niceone: :niceone: :niceone: :niceone: :niceone:

[Lissa]

Didnt see the doc, but of course the figgin plane hit the pentagon... if it didnt, what happened to it and all the passengers. Werent passengers on that plane, on cell phones at the time of the impact? Wasnt the plane full of fuel, once it crashed it exploded thus not alot of bits left.. oh I wish I had watched it. There is always going to be conspiracy theories.. I just think its sad so many innocent people lost their lives.

[pervert]

Werent passengers on that plane, on cell phones at the time of the impact?

Another very interesting point, it has been proven that cell phones have a very low rate of success when used in flight, yet they all allegedly worked so well on that day?

If people were going to go to all this trouble, making a plane and a few hundred people dissapear would be the easiest part.

[Blairos]

Another very interesting point, it has been proven that cell phones have a very low rate of success when used in flight, yet they all allegedly worked so well on that day?.

Given the huge quantities of Cell Phone users in the US, I would suspect that coverage would not have really been a problem, especially given the lower altitudes involved?

[jetboy]

Yeah I saw this but am a bit skeptical. The presenter was a rather wierd looking guy too.
Got me thinking but I dont think even George Bush would go as far as to destroy the twin towers (and murder all those people) just to wage a war.

[pervert]

Given the huge quantities of Cell Phone users in the US, I would suspect that coverage would not have really been a problem, especially given the lower altitudes involved?

People were allegedly making calls when at cruising altitude of 32,000 feet, which under tests had a success rate of less than 0.01%.

[placidfemme]

I've read and watched so many things on this matter. I have no doubt that the planes flew into the Twin Towers. However, I DO NOT believe that alone caused the towers to collapse.

I also believe that whatever hit the pentagon was NOT a plane.

I don't know who did it, but I do believe the american government was involved to some degree. They are hiding something, and sad as it is, I doubt we will ever find out... kinda like Roswell and Crop Circles etc...

[pervert]

I've read and watched so many things on this matter. I have no doubt that the planes flew into the Twin Towers. However, I DO NOT believe that alone caused the towers to collapse.

I also believe that whatever hit the pentagon was NOT a plane.

I don't know who did it, but I do believe the american government was involved to some degree. They are hiding something, and sad as it is, I doubt we will ever find out... kinda like Roswell and Crop Circles etc...

I fully agree with you.

Did they know it was going to happen and do nothing to prevent it?

Did they assist?

...or did they plan and implement the whole thing?

[placidfemme]

...or did they plan and implement the whole thing?

Thats what I believe, but I have no proof or whatever to prove it, just a gut feeling I get from it

[SPman]

Ultimately, regardless of who planned it (Venusians, I reckon), lots of people lost their lives, the special effects were awesome and the shock value enabled dubya and his cronies (including that criminal Blair and the naive half wit Howard) to instill their own brand of paranoia world wide. Osama won, George won, the rest of the planet lost!

[geoffm]

They sure do, but they don't dispute that the Airliners hit the WTC buildings, just the Pentagon.

Like many others I find it strange that 3 buildings (let's not forget tower 7) all collapsed on the same day, allegedly due to fire weakening the structural steel...when not once has that ever happened in history before. Even when similar design buildings have burned for over 20 times longer.

I don't know what happened or who organised it, and I don't claim to. One thing is for sure though, the official 911 commission organisation and subsequent findings are not even close to the truth.

I have to comment on this, as it is something I know a fair bit about. The WTC fires have been extensively studied and modelled, and I have talked to some of those involved in the investigation. The SFPE had an interesting presentation on the WTC collapse at the last meeting.
You are quite correct that other steel framed buildings have survived major fires without structural collapse - Broadgate being a well known example. A common feature is they didn't have a fully loaded airliner flying into them, loaded with 70,000l of fuel - many times the expected building fuel load. Around 1/3 of the fuel was lost in the fireball, with the remainder burning inside the building. and running into the floors below.
The WTC was an interesting design. The building consisted of a central core containing the services and liftshafts, with an exterior steel frame and curtain wall. The wall and the core were connected by the floor slabs, which were supported on lightweight steel trusses, bolted at each end. The fireproofing of the structural steel was originally by spray asbestos in part of the 1st tower, with spray mineral fibre/ plaster (IIRC) in the rest. Steel has the advatage fo rhigh rises that it is strong, and lightweight (comapretively). .Unfortunately it weakens with increasing temperature, with the strength starting to diminish around 200 degrees, and by 500 degrees, it is at 40% of it's cold strength. Steel framed buildings often have insulation added to the steel members so they don't reach the failure temperature. ALternatively, if the steel is large enough, it won't get hot enough to fail in the time available - for the design conditions, which don't include a huge additional fuel load.
The impact of the airliner sheared off a lot of of the outer frame, along with the fire sprinkler riser pipes, so there was no sprinkler control of the fire, although the fuel load would be far in excess of what the sprinklers could handle. The impact also knocked off the fire protection insulation - a key factor in the collapse The fire weakened the remaining connections, so that the end connections of the trusses failed and the floors collapsed, leading to the pancake stacking you saw at the end.
Buildings are designed to handle certain fire conditions, based on the expected usage, fuel load, openings, etc. Office buildings are not designed to take 5-600kph impacts combined with a full load of jet fuel, as well as the extra fuel provided by the airliner itself. The design usually takes some consideration of the benefits of a sprinkler system, and is assumes there is at least most of the applied fire protection to the structure. All fair assumtions for an accidental fire. No fire protection system can prevent arson or terrorism, except security.
The only buildings designed to handle a jet airplane fire are large hangers at airports, and they have big chemical foam monitors to drown the whole lot in foam.
Geoff

[pervert]

I have to comment on this, as it is something I know a fair bit about. The WTC fires have been extensively studied and modelled, and I have talked to some of those involved in the investigation. The SFPE had an interesting presentation on the WTC collapse at the last meeting.
You are quite correct that other steel framed buildings have survived major fires without structural collapse - Broadgate being a well known example. A common feature is they didn't have a fully loaded airliner flying into them, loaded with 70,000l of fuel - many times the expected building fuel load. Around 1/3 of the fuel was lost in the fireball, with the remainder burning inside the building. and running into the floors below.
The WTC was an interesting design. The building consisted of a central core containing the services and liftshafts, with an exterior steel frame and curtain wall. The wall and the core were connected by the floor slabs, which were supported on lightweight steel trusses, bolted at each end. The fireproofing of the structural steel was originally by spray asbestos in part of the 1st tower, with spray mineral fibre/ plaster (IIRC) in the rest. Steel has the advatage fo rhigh rises that it is strong, and lightweight (comapretively). .Unfortunately it weakens with increasing temperature, with the strength starting to diminish around 200 degrees, and by 500 degrees, it is at 40% of it's cold strength. Steel framed buildings often have insulation added to the steel members so they don't reach the failure temperature. ALternatively, if the steel is large enough, it won't get hot enough to fail in the time available - for the design conditions, which don't include a huge additional fuel load.
The impact of the airliner sheared off a lot of of the outer frame, along with the fire sprinkler riser pipes, so there was no sprinkler control of the fire, although the fuel load would be far in excess of what the sprinklers could handle. The impact also knocked off the fire protection insulation - a key factor in the collapse The fire weakened the remaining connections, so that the end connections of the trusses failed and the floors collapsed, leading to the pancake stacking you saw at the end.
Buildings are designed to handle certain fire conditions, based on the expected usage, fuel load, openings, etc. Office buildings are not designed to take 5-600kph impacts combined with a full load of jet fuel, as well as the extra fuel provided by the airliner itself. The design usually takes some consideration of the benefits of a sprinkler system, and is assumes there is at least most of the applied fire protection to the structure. All fair assumtions for an accidental fire. No fire protection system can prevent arson or terrorism, except security.
The only buildings designed to handle a jet airplane fire are large hangers at airports, and they have big chemical foam monitors to drown the whole lot in foam.
Geoff

Maybe so, but for every knowledgable person (in that particular field) like yourself, there is another who is just as credible, if not more, who disagrees with that explanation.

Especially when it comes to how the building's managed to fall at near free fall speed, and the unexplained collapse of tower 7, which suffered no impact which kinda fucks up your pattern, guess that could be why they won't release that report on tower 7's collapse aye?

Even the experts can't agree, research will discover that.

[Ixion]

I have to comment on this, as it is something I know a fair bit about....
{lotsa facts snipped}


Oh, well, of course if you're gonna bring FACTS into it, ...

[Skyryder]

Maybe so, but for every knowledgable person (in that particular field) like yourself, there is another who is just as credible, if not more, who disagrees with that explanation.

Especially when it comes to how the building's managed to fall at near free fall speed, and the unexplained collapse of tower 7, which suffered no impact which kinda fucks up your pattern, guess that could be why they won't release that report on tower 7's collapse aye?

Even the experts can't agree, research will discover that.

Yes and it's called the Andy Warhol factor, or better known as the 15 minute fetish. Experts always disagree with experts. They write papers criticising collegues, theorys etc. It's how they become experts. The building collapsed becasue a plane flew into it. The Pentigon cought fire becasue a plane flew into it. There's a fucking great big hole in the building where the fuselage and a lower breach on both sides where the wings pentrated the building.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/pentagon.html#damage

Skyryder

[pervert]

The Pentigon cought fire becasue a plane flew into it. There's a fucking great big hole in the building where the fuselage and a lower breach on both sides where the wings pentrated the building.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/pentagon.html#damage

Skyryder

Computer generated images for proof...ouch...

Suppose you believe Santa's fueling up his Reindeer about now too?

[Skyryder]

Computer generated images for proof...ouch...

Suppose you believe Santa's fueling up his Reindeer about now too?

If that was the case then they would have been exposed by now. I don't know much about 'dressing up photos but there are plenty around who do. Doctored photo's can be detected. No one has made the claim that you suggest and proven it.



Santa Of course. How else do you think he flies.

Skyryder

[Squiggles]

airliners have a large portion of magnesium in them... the one that hit the pentagon will have all but burned up in an instant (correct me if im wrong)

ah, conspiracy's, unless you actually saw it then theres always room for one.

[Skyryder]

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/witnesses.html

Interesting for those who do not believe.

Skyryder

[The_Dover]

Suppose you believe Santa's fueling up his Reindeer about now too?

maybe, but that ain't a diesel pump that the old perv keeps in his pants and AFAIK the fuel goes in the other end of a reindeer..

[geoffm]

Maybe so, but for every knowledgable person (in that particular field) like yourself, there is another who is just as credible, if not more, who disagrees with that explanation.

Especially when it comes to how the building's managed to fall at near free fall speed, and the unexplained collapse of tower 7, which suffered no impact which kinda fucks up your pattern, guess that could be why they won't release that report on tower 7's collapse aye?

Even the experts can't agree, research will discover that.

Per your questions, look at http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml (bottom half). For details on the buildings, a short description is at http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html. If you can't sleep, the full report is on the NIST website.
Don't forget with WTC7, the building were interconnected by underground parking and space, with joined foundations. Collapse of the other towers and destruction of the mutual supports doesn't do the structural stability much good.
I had a quick google - man there are some flakes out there with no idea of physics and engineering (or logic). Stridently declaiming something is so, without any supporting evidence whatsoever, doesn't make it so.
Geoff