Two-stroke oil usage

[prvoke]

Right so i know have my 1st bike - KR150a (cheers Racey Rider)
ive only commuted on it twice now (200km return) im using around 9L gas and 230-250ml oil give or take. Just wondering what the normal oil usage is like as the stuff i got was $25 per L so it brings up the running costs a tad. If that usage is normal i might look into a cheaper oil haha

[Motu]

I do about 1,000km per litre.

[Ixion]

1000km/l is a typical figure. Petal is odd, does nearly twice that about 2000km/l. But it sokes like a smokey thing and the pump setting is correct - over oiling if anything. I guess it's because the fuel consumption is so bad.

[vamr]

I do slightly below that on my KR... around 800ml per 1000km. It's definately quite slow in consumption of 2t.

[Ghost Lemur]

The CRM is incredibly economical on oil. I've only topped it up twice since I got it.

I might top it up again and do 500-1000k's and see exactly how much she's using.

[Racey Rider]

$25 per litre for 2/ oil?!!

Even the Full synthetic I use in the race bike is only $17/L.

My suggestion was you should only need semi synthetic oil for commuting with.
I've seen suitable stuff at $10/L at Supercheap Autos.

[prvoke]

that was for Fuchs comp 2 silkolene (spelling)
found they do a cheaper version for $14.50 for 1L so grabbed that instead

[geoffm]

RG500 gets around 800k/l of bloody expensive fully synth oil, sometimes less if you wring its neck all the time.
Geoff

[SlowHand]

Old RG was 1.2L per 350km...

[vamr]

RG500 gets around 800k/l of bloody expensive fully synth oil, sometimes less if you wring its neck all the time.
Geoff

What's the oil that you run on if you don't mind me asking?

[jade]

I use castrol TTS fully synthetic 2 stroke - its main emphasis being on more protection at higher rpm - 28 bucks a litre - from cycletreads or super cheap auto - elf is also quite good and puts off the best smell - about 34 per L tho

[gammaguy]

my bikes are all strokers.St 125 gets around 700km per litre,but its working the hardest.RG 400 about 1200 km per litre,runs clean as a whistle.TDR 250 somewhere in the middle at 1000km per litre.I run Rock Oil synthesis fully synth in all my bikes,never had a problem with it so i stick with it.Seems the smaller they are the longer the throttle is fully open therefore longer oil pump is too.makes sense!

[Mr. Peanut]

Id be lucky if I got 800km/l, use Motul 710 - $28 a litre.
Could use Mobil 1 at $21/l but its not a pretty blue colour, and its not smokeless.

[gammaguy]

Id be lucky if I got 800km/l, use Motul 710 - $28 a litre.
Could use Mobil 1 at $21/l but its not a pretty blue colour, and its not smokeless.

mobil 1 is for four strokes i thought?:confused:

[Mr. Peanut]

So that's why I kept fouling my plugs... :gob:

They make mobil 1 for 2t ;)

[gammaguy]

a few interesting ideas here.:http://www.dansmc.com/2stroke_oil.htm

[Aiolos]

I use Shell VSX2. Its fully synthetic and less than $50 for 4 litres.

[bumsex]

never trust an oil pump. (2 stroke oil pump)

[Racey Rider]

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to why not, rather than just chuck out a statement like that!
and if we aren't to trust them,, what Are we to do,,, Not ride our bikes? Not ride further from home than half a tank of pre-mix?

Two stroke oil pumps have been a system working well for years.
Yes you occasionally hear of one 'packing up' and causing seizer, but then everything on any motorbike you might name has 'packed up' at least once, for someone, somewhere.

[Ixion]

I've trusted them for thirty odd years. Never had a two smoker oil pump fail . Have seized engines both pump and pre-mix, more premix than pump.

And I have had four stroke oil pumps fail. Why should a two stroke oil pump be more prone to failure than a four stroke one ?

[Coyote]

My suggestion was you should only need semi synthetic oil for commuting with.
I've seen suitable stuff at $10/L at Supercheap Autos.
I currently use Valvoline 2 Stroke Racing Oil. That's the one for $10/L at Supercheap. I haven't noticed any problems. But friends who have been there when i start it and who have followed me comment on how bad it smells, which I hadn't noticed. Maybe these 4 stroke riders and non-bikers just aren't accustomed to the fragrant odour of a 2 stroke

And it's only an RG, doesn't need the finest stuff. My Dad runs the $70/L stuff on the Montesa (he loves that thing more than the family though)

[KLOWN]

i would get about 600km - 800km for a litre of in my old rg.

[Motu]

I've taken a few pumps out of 2 strokes for various reasons - can't be stuffed repairing cables,lose a few grams,salt water damage,fires....plenty of reasons where it's more economical to ditch the system than repair it.But not on Suzuki's with pressure fed bearings,Kawasaki street bikes too.Yamaha are easiest,they always just run a jet into the intake.

[imdying]

But not on Suzuki's with pressure fed bearingsHeh, was gonna mention them. Premix that you bastards!

[Motu]

Remove the cable but leave the pump hooked up,then run 50:1 pre mix or less - that gives an rpm fed supply to the left side bearing,which is collected and fed to the bigend,and premix for the bore and added safety for the bigend.

[imdying]

Or leave the pump as it is :lol:

[gammaguy]

pumps are best left as is unless you have an in depth knowledge of various two stroke principles including fuel quality variations and even ambient air density to name but two.any system is a compromise but at least the oil pump system prevents over-oiling at low RPM which is the cause of many problems,not the least being peoples misconception that two strokes are "smelly smokey bloody things"If your oil system is set up right they can be as clean burning as a four stroke with no visible smoke at all.
Having said that the Nylon Oil Pump drive gear on my TDR sheared off last year so yup it was engine rebuild time.Turns out some previous "fiddler"had forgot to put the pump drive gear clip on when he last was in there!:angry:

[TygerTung]

I use Castrol TTS, it's 28 a litre OR if you get a 4L pack from supercheap it's only $80 for 4 Litres, making it pretty economical

[gammaguy]

dont skimp on the oil quality.RG 150 power valves cost my mate $340 EACH cos it had been run on cheap oil and they had to be destroyed to get them out :gob: when they jammed in place making the RG as slow as a honda 50(well almost).Was still cheaper than a new cylinder tho but only just......

[Racey Rider]

Just for reference:

I have done two tests on my current KR150a re 2/oil use.

Test 1.
1000Kms - 80% open road riding at 110km/h - used 1050mls

Test 2.
1000Kms - Commuting - 50% town, 50% open road. - used 950mls

One thing that bugs me on the KR150 is the low fuel light. It seems to come on about 2 km After I have had to switch to reserve. Hello! I've just switched to reserve while looking in the mirror at that big truck I just passed bearing down on me! :shutup: I know I'm low on fuel!

[vamr]

Also for reference...

Motul 710 smells better then TTS.

That is all.

[bumsex]

Perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to why not, rather than just chuck out a statement like that!
and if we aren't to trust them,, what Are we to do,,, Not ride our bikes? Not ride further from home than half a tank of pre-mix?

Two stroke oil pumps have been a system working well for years.
Yes you occasionally hear of one 'packing up' and causing seizer, but then everything on any motorbike you might name has 'packed up' at least once, for someone, somewhere.




yes you are right of course and welcome to your opinion but the reason I say that is because when you are running an oil pump on a two stroke bike, you can never be sure of the exact ratio of oil to fuel at any one time.

I had a yam tzr that I would ride from hamilton to wairoa an back in my student days: it was pre mixed and I never had a problem with it.

[Motu]

The other way around I think - with premix (or mix it yourself in the tank like in times of yore) at times the engine can be getting too much oil,others too little.The oil/fuel mixture is set to worse case scenario,in that it has enough oil for the most load it will ever have,in no load situations there is far too much oil.An oil pump regulates oil to speed and load,very much in the same way an ignition system supplies advance (with vacuum advance as well as cetrifugal)

I've taken oil pumps off 2 strokes,sometimes because of eliminating a possible fault that might happen,othertimes because of damage to the pump system.I prefer to leave it on,and for a road bike the pro's put the nay's into insignificance.

[imdying]

the reason I say that is because when you are running an oil pump on a two stroke bike, you can never be sure of the exact ratio of oil to fuel at any one time.But why does that even matter? When the bike needs more oil, the pump adds more, when the bike needs less, it adds less. What difference does knowing the exact ratio actually make to the rider?

[MrMelon]

This is kinda relevant. I've got this kdx that's got an oil pump but the owner didnt know about it so has been running premix (admittedly he's only used 1 tank of gas since he's owned it) I'm pretty keen to run it using the oil pump. What should I do or check to make sure the oil pump's working fine so I can safely stop using premix. Should the oil tank be flushed, does it need to be primed to make sure the oil's flowing through or anything?

[Motu]

There should be a bleed valve on the pump.Have a look inside the tank - if it looks clean I'd just put some oil in the tank,pull the hose off the pump and run a bit through with gravity.Hook up the hose and gravity bleed the pump.If the tank looks crappy,remove and flush.The pump will have a couple of marks on the arm the cable is on - the most important is wide open,this should line up with WOT,the carb will also have some mark on the slide too.Having a pump means you can ride anywhere,not be tied to your fuel can.

[MrMelon]

Cheers I'll check that out tonight.

[Ixion]

Main thing is you need to bleed the pump and lines. Like Mr Motu says, there'll be a bleed valve on the pump. That will bleed the pump, but odds are you may need to bleed the lines also. You can (usually) see any air bubbles in the line, so slacken off the banjo bolts at athe end and run the engine with the oil pump manually held full open until there are no more air bubbles (it makes a shit of a mess, but)

[bumsex]

The other way around I think - with premix (or mix it yourself in the tank like in times of yore) at times the engine can be getting too much oil,others too little.The oil/fuel mixture is set to worse case scenario,in that it has enough oil for the most load it will ever have,in no load situations there is far too much oil.An oil pump regulates oil to speed and load,very much in the same way an ignition system supplies advance (with vacuum advance as well as cetrifugal)

I've taken oil pumps off 2 strokes,sometimes because of eliminating a possible fault that might happen,othertimes because of damage to the pump system.I prefer to leave it on,and for a road bike the pro's put the nay's into insignificance.

yeah what you have said here pretty much negates my argument. maybe I am just superstitious (about oil pumps failing)

[bumsex]

But why does that even matter? When the bike needs more oil, the pump adds more, when the bike needs less, it adds less. What difference does knowing the exact ratio actually make to the rider?


it matters because the pump can be calibrated or adjusted wrong and the engine then does not get the oil in the quantity required

[imdying]

it matters because the pump can be calibrated or adjusted wrong and the engine then does not get the oil in the quantity requiredBut it you're running premix, then it's just as likely (if not more) that the engine is getting the wrong quantity of oil. Not to mention what happens if someone servicing it tops up the gas, or you get stuck without oil, or, or, or. Oil pumps have proven to be pretty reliable, humans, less so.

[Motu]

maybe I am just superstitious (about oil pumps failing)

I worry,because I've had a cable break.I remember smugly thinking - ''At least my bike doesn't smoke like those Spanish bikes,and I just love this nice light throttle....'' When things are going just a little tooooo well is the time I get suspicious.Actual oil pump failure is very rare - Ixion will tell you how old his pumps are.

[bumsex]

yes, I remembersomeone writing above that four stroke oil pumps don't seem to fail that much (implying that 2 stroke ones shouldnt either), however the oil pumps on 4 stroke motors are very simple (the ones I have seen anyway) and all the two stroke oil pumps I have seen have a lot of things that can go wrong (are more complex). Cables breaking and more commonly with the bikes have worked on are the oil pump drive gears failing

[gammaguy]

I have replaced a few failed oil pumps in the rotax engine fitted to the bmw F650 Bikes.They are driven by nylon gears and these can fail or sometimes bits of debris jam inside the pump.
and it makes more of a mess when they fail cos theres more bits inside to start with arent there?
four strokes more reliable?
pffffttt.

[imdying]

When a cable brakes, the pump goes to min instead of max delivery? Seems a funny idea!

[MrMelon]

Main thing is you need to bleed the pump and lines. Like Mr Motu says, there'll be a bleed valve on the pump. That will bleed the pump, but odds are you may need to bleed the lines also. You can (usually) see any air bubbles in the line, so slacken off the banjo bolts at athe end and run the engine with the oil pump manually held full open until there are no more air bubbles (it makes a shit of a mess, but)

Ok so just to clarify this, I should take the hose off at the oil pump that comes from the oil tank and let a little oil run out then hook it up to the pump again, then could I run the engine for a few minutes to get this oil sucked through the pump, and through the hose to where it's added to the fuel mix just after the carb? There's still a bit of premix in the tank so I shouldn't have any problems with lack of oil running it like that for a bit.
Or will that be a bad idea? I couldn't easily see any bleed valve on the oil pump.

[Ixion]

Yes. If there's no bleed valve (not all pumps have one), just slacken the banjo bolts , one section at a time , and let oil run out until there's no more air. What you're basically doing is making sure you don't get an air lock. Once oil is flowing without bubbles or froth, tighten that bolt and move to the next one.

On the far side of the pump you'll have to have the engine running (otherwise no oil flow). Hold the lever that the cable operates in the "full throtte" position (ie max oil flow), to make the job quicker and also ensure that the engine gets enough oil. It only takes a couple of minutes, though it makes a right mess.

[MrMelon]

Ah yep I think I should be able to sort it. Didn't see a lever there which changes the flow rate but i'll have a better look when I get into it tonight.

Cheers.

[Ixion]

Just follow the cable that goes to the pump, it's whatever it hooks onto. Twist the grip to full throttle and see what moves.

[MrMelon]

Ok this has got me. I went to top the oil tank up but it started overflowing pretty much straight away. I've had a closer look at the oil line that comes out form the oil pump and joins on after the carb and it looks like it might be full of oil. Is there any way I can tell for sure whether there's oil in the oil tank without pulling the whole thing apart? Riding it without premix to see if it seizes or not isn't the answer I'm after either.

Cheers

[Mr. Peanut]

I worry,because I've had a cable break.I remember smugly thinking - ''At least my bike doesn't smoke like those Spanish bikes,and I just love this nice light throttle....'' When things are going just a little tooooo well is the time I get suspicious.Actual oil pump failure is very rare - Ixion will tell you how old his pumps are.

My pump floods the engine with oil if the cable breaks. Had it come off after a bin, and got quite a shock!

[Motu]

Normaly,on Mikuni and Yamaha pumps...the arm is spring loaded against the pull of the cable,so it goes to the low delivery position on cable failure.That's why everyone worries about cable breakage.Dunno what you have to make it do that.

[Mr. Peanut]

Normaly,on Mikuni and Yamaha pumps...the arm is spring loaded against the pull of the cable,so it goes to the low delivery position on cable failure.That's why everyone worries about cable breakage.Dunno what you have to make it do that.

I've been wrong before! Engine was totally flooded with oil, and wouldn't rev out.

Noticed the cable was off the pump (lucky I didn't ride it home, engine just rebuilt!!) reattached and it slowly improved.

Cable could have slipped half off and held the pump open though.

[gammaguy]

not always.

My TDR 250 oil pump cable frayed and jammed the pump on full.(which was nicer than the alternative!):doctor:

[Motu]

A common one is for the outer cable to be pulled up on the boot,then they over oil.When working on a 2 stroke I always make sure the cables are fully seated.

[Ixion]

Ok this has got me. I went to top the oil tank up but it started overflowing pretty much straight away. I've had a closer look at the oil line that comes out form the oil pump and joins on after the carb and it looks like it might be full of oil. Is there any way I can tell for sure whether there's oil in the oil tank without pulling the whole thing apart? Riding it without premix to see if it seizes or not isn't the answer I'm after either.

Cheers

Just stick a dipstick down it?

But for safeties sake, loosen the banjos where the pipes go to the motor (or inlet manifold) and check that oil comes pissing out when the motor runs .

[Ixion]

A common one is for the outer cable to be pulled up on the boot,then they over oil.When working on a 2 stroke I always make sure the cables are fully seated.

Yeah, I've had that happen. With Suzukis quite often when the cables correctly adjusted there's actually quite a lot of slack on a fully closed throttle. And sometimes the outer can jump out of the socket on the adjuster thingy and catch on the top of it. So on large throttle openings its pumping far too much oil. Much smoke.

I also have a habit of reaching down and giving the cable a tug if I'm working the motor hard, to give an extra squirt of oil, just like giving an extra squirt on the old petrol tank mounted lubricators (shit, that's going back a bit!).Or, just if I want to check the cable hasn't broken!

[MrMelon]

Just stick a dipstick down it?

But for safeties sake, loosen the banjos where the pipes go to the motor (or inlet manifold) and check that oil comes pissing out when the motor runs .

The arrangement makes it pretty impossible to get a dipstick down there but I managed to pull the oil line off where it connects after the carb and it seems to dribble out a bit of oil whenever I give it a rev. Filled the tank up with 91 today and went for a blast. Done 40k's so far and it hasn't seized so I guess that's a good sign. Was smoking cars the cars behind me out hardcore down the motorway while it used the last of the premix up though heh heh. Cheers for the advice :D

[kippy]

i get about 4tanks petrol on a full tank 2stroke dono how much that is..and i get about 180km petrol on a tank and if i feel like riding i get 120 to 140km on a tank