Eprom + PCIII?

[Clivoris]

Hey all you brainy fullas:scratch: Is there anyone out there that types slow enough to explain to me what an EPROM chip does that a PCIII doesn't? I think I know, but I spent a good two years thinking a perm was a good idea in the early 80's:o . I've never trusted my own opinion since.

[NighthawkNZ]

Erasable Programable Read Only Memory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM
Basically it will hold the program till erased even when you switch the device off etc etc..

[sAsLEX]

EPROM is a place you store a MAP for the ignition and fuelling that is in the original loom.
PCIII is a place you store a MAP for the ignition and fuelling that hooks into the original loom.



To be honest I thought a PCIII was a better option as it has a UI(user Interface) allowing you to upload new maps via you computer thing via a cable thing after you get them off the interweeb.

Where as a EPROM chip would need specialised EPROM chip programming equipment and a nerd to do, kinda you buy one specific to your bike from a guy.

[Sparkz]

Will give it a try:

The engine is controlled by an ECU (Electronic control unit) which uses sensors to work out engine RPM, crank position, throttle position etc and then gives the correct ignition advance and fuel injection pulse width. Ignition advance and fuel injector pulse width need to change with RPM, throttle position, manifold pressure etc. to make maximum power (and minimum emissions) under all riding conditions.

This requires a "map" which is basically a table that gives the correct advance and fuelling for all the different sensor inputs. The "map" is stored in memory in the ECU. EPROM stands for Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory and is just a chip that stores the map. The map can be changed, for instance to give more fuel at certain RPM or throttle position or to advance the ignition more or less, and then this new map can be stored in an EPROM chip. Put this new chip into an ECU, and the engine will perform differently.

A Power Commander, or other aftermarket boxes, either replace the original ECU, or intercept the outputs from the original one and modify them to extend injector pulse widths etc. They also allow you to modify the map easily with a laptop instead of swapping an EPROM chip.

Hope that helps a bit. There is heaps more to it, but that is the basic idea

[Clivoris]

Keep it coming guys. Does a PCIII change the ignition curve?

[bluninja]

Thought ePROM was a new things for students graduating from eschools....

[Sensei]

Thought ePROM was a new things for students graduating from eschools....

Don't give up ya day job for Stand up Comedy show LOL

[madmal64]

Ok guys my turn to jump in with the questions for those with more knowledge than myself. Ive been lurking on the other thread with interest
What is the advantage of using PCIII over an upgrade EPROM? Does it make it easier to tune/map?
Im running SL Carbon race cans with the SL chip, derestricted air box & wire clip. Quite happy with the overall performance. Shite loads better than standard exhaust & chip but Im thinking about installing PCIII and spending some dyno time.
Worth the $$'s?
Will it make a noticable difference?
Sensei is this EPROM chip compatible with the Falco?

[bluninja]

Sensei, not as funny as me trying to explain about eproms properly.

To me the whole point of the PC3 is so that you can have whatever curve you want (that is possible). If you buy an EPROM you can have a couple of maps...with the PC3 you could just store loads of maps on a PDA (or laptop if you prefer) and then upload the map before a ride....So a map for day to day riding, a map for trackdays at Taupo, a top end map for a trackday at Puke.

[xwhatsit]

Basically what everybody is trying to say, is that they do exactly the same thing. The only difference is that the EPROM (well, it will be an EEPROM to be technically correct) is effectively hard coded (it can be changed, but only by geeks like me), whereas the advantage of a PC3-type device is that you can change the map as often as you like, by yourself.

[sAsLEX]

Basically what everybody is trying to say, is that they do exactly the same thing. The only difference is that the EPROM (well, it will be an EEPROM to be technically correct) is effectively hard coded (it can be changed, but only by geeks like me), whereas the advantage of a PC3-type device is that you can change the map as often as you like, by yourself.

Hey I could do it to.... but I wouldn't be arsed . Plus you often need expensive programming hardware for the chips etc whereas anything can do a PCIII.

[laRIKin]

There are 3 buttons on the PCIII so you can adjust the map a little bit and is very easy to do.
The adjustments are spread evenly across the rev range. (low,Mid,hi)
http://www.powercommander.com/featintro.shtml

Must go to work now.
Last day:done: :banana: :banana:

[Sensei]

Sensei is this EPROM chip compatible with the Falco?

No i believe it is only for 01/02/03 Mille's but can ask if it would do or if he has one for the Falco if ya like ?

[vifferman]

Yeah, what they said.
The PCIII intercepts the signals sent to the injection and modifies the pulse length of the injectors (shorter=leaner/longer=richer). I know the PCII allows ignition advance changes, but I'm not sure if the PCIII does.
Apart from the buttons (for an easy change, or if you load a reall crap map and need to correct it so you can at least get the bike home to remap it!), the PCII or III allows you to make incremental changes, test-ride it, and see if it's better or worse. It means too that you can change things on a whim (like take the spud outta your Satantune because you're grumpy) and change the mapping just for that. Or do a track day and whack in a couple of degrees of ignition advance and some extra petroleum distillates at high revs. Or just have fun tinkering. I did.:scooter:

[imdying]

Keep it coming guys. Does a PCIII change the ignition curve?The PCIIIUSB doesn't by itself, but there's an option to get an ignition module as well.

Here's the guff: http://www.powercommander.com/907-411.aspx
Note the 6-14 ignition module.

A chip relies on the bike being in the same order as the one the chip was originally made for. A chip also relies on the bike being used in the same altitude/humidity conditions as the place where the bike was tuned for. Some factory ECUs go some way towards self compensating for the latter, some don't. Couldn't say what happens with an Aprila Tuono sorry.

The PCIII on the other hand relies on a tuner that knows what they're doing, especially when it comes to tuning in part throttle response. Having to setup the ignition module as well increases the complexity again somewhat.

In theory, a PCIII is the better option, as it allows a complete custom setup for your bike, taking into consideration any exhaust or intake mods that you might have done, which obviously the chip can't do. Of course, if you make more mods, the PCIII can be retuned to compensate for those too.

Even though the chip appears to be pretty worthless in comparison to a PCIII, as it allows for no adjustment, and might have been tuned and programmed under totally different conditions to your bike and usage, the PCIII could piss you off infinitely more if it's not setup correctly. When you do your budget, make sure you include plenty of dyno time to get it well sorted.

[madmal64]

No i believe it is only for 01/02/03 Mille's but can ask if it would do or if he has one for the Falco if ya like ?

At this stage I think I will go the PCIII way but I will pm you if I decide to give it a whirl later.



In theory, a PCIII is the better option, as it allows a complete custom setup for your bike, taking into consideration any exhaust or intake mods that you might have done, which obviously the chip can't do. Of course, if you make more mods, the PCIII can be retuned to compensate for those too.

Even though the chip appears to be pretty worthless in comparison to a PCIII, as it allows for no adjustment, and might have been tuned and programmed under totally different conditions to your bike and usage, the PCIII could piss you off infinitely more if it's not setup correctly. When you do your budget, make sure you include plenty of dyno time to get it well sorted.

Sweet! Awesome! Thanks for all the info guys :rockon:
Anyone recomend someone good with dyno & Aprilia knowledge in Wellys?
Looks like a PCIII may be a worthwhile spend

[Clivoris]

Right then.
Thanks for the help chaps. If I have digested the info correctly, a PCIII gives the ability to create infinite fuelling maps. I ken that it doesn't change the ignition mapping (apologies if this is incorrect terminology). My thinking is that a "good" eprom will alter both but it can be a lottery whether it will be the right mapping for a specific bike.

[98tls]

Not knockin these things at all.........i bought my own yosh box as it suits my needs better than a PC2/3..............thing is i constantly come across guys bitching about PC2s on overseas bike forums.......and its the same whinge every time........everythings fine one minute...next the thing crashes and there fucked.......as in bike wont go,never heard anything about it on here but cant imagine there all talking shit.......they do say that the things have been replaced free of charge......after a wait.honestly not knockin them...got a mate with one on an SV and hes had no problems........just a little dubious.

[Clivoris]

Not knockin these things at all.........i bought my own yosh box as it suits my needs better than a PC2/3..............thing is i constantly come across guys bitching about PC2s on overseas bike forums.......and its the same whinge every time........everythings fine one minute...next the thing crashes and there fucked.......as in bike wont go,never heard anything about it on here but cant imagine there all talking shit.......they do say that the things have been replaced free of charge......after a wait.honestly not knockin them...got a mate with one on an SV and hes had no problems........just a little dubious.

It's funny you should say that. I have a TL riding mate who had similar reservations when I got mine. Must have heard the same stories. I haven't had any problems with mine. It's done exactly what it claimed to and I scored it second hand. When I installed it, it even still had the previous owners map loaded. Definitely need to have someone do the dyno time for ya tho and that aint cheap.

[laRIKin]

I have only been looking at these things for a short time as I have my first F.I bike.

I have not heard of them crashing and I'm not saying that you are wrong about that.
And that most of the V11 guys seen to really like them.
Because of the ease of adjustment on the bike and the down loading of maps.

But I did read once that if you do have a problem you can unplug the PC and run on the standard ECU to get home on, is this right?
And could someone tell me what I would have to pay for one here in NZ, thanks.

[Clivoris]

At this stage I think I will go the PCIII way but I will pm you if I decide to give it a whirl later.



Sweet! Awesome! Thanks for all the info guys :rockon:
Anyone recomend someone good with dyno & Aprilia knowledge in Wellys?
Looks like a PCIII may be a worthwhile spend

Hey Madmal. Craig at Motomart in the Hutt might be the only option. He put in heaps of extra (unpaid) time to get mine running as good as he could. They don't have a Dynotune dyno but he seems to know his machine well enough to find me around 10 horses and improved the throttle response etc no end. Also, there is a PCIII on tardme at the moment for the 03 Mille but I don't know if it's compatible with your machine (I e-mailed Powercommander about mine and they got back real quick. Very helpful chaps). He also wants a bit much for it too. I think Kerry can get them in for between 5-6 hundy new (but I might have made that up).

[Clivoris]

But I did read once that if you do have a problem you can unplug the PC and run on the standard ECU to get home on, is this right?
And could someone tell me what I would have to pay for one here in NZ, thanks.

I haven't had to do it yet but that has to be correct. I've heard of prices from just over 5 hundy to 8 hundy. I've had a bit of a scan on e-bay but have never purchased anything from there. If ti worked out, there could be bargains to be had.

[laRIKin]

I've heard of prices from just over 5 hundy to 8 hundy.

Thanks for that it is about what I thought it was going to be.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm reluctant to post this but...

You could do a lot worse than talk to this guy - he comes highly recommended by the Aussies and a lot of the yanks.

http://www.jefferies-au.org/MyECU/index.htm

Cheers

[Clivoris]

I'm reluctant to post this but...

You could do a lot worse than talk to this guy - he comes highly recommended by the Aussies and a lot of the yanks.

http://www.jefferies-au.org/MyECU/index.htm

Cheers

Why the reluctance Paul? Looks like a good thing for those other Italian bikes. Cheers mate.

[Paul in NZ]

Why the reluctance Paul? Looks like a good thing for those other Italian bikes. Cheers mate.

My opinions are often badly expressed and get me into bother.

I don't own a FI bike so I have no personal experience but in this case everyone I know that has dealt with Cliff (through AIGOR) has come away well pleased. Plus you can often build a kit yourself saving $$.

He publish some long long articles on how he started developing his systems and I was just very impressed by his can do attitude and the lengths he went to to help others. Certainly if you read a lot of the stuff on his site I think he explains your original question quite well.

I see he is developing modules for other bikes now including the TL1000.

[Clivoris]

I'm in Hastings at the moment and I have just spoken to a geezer called Nigel at Procycles (Napier). They have a Dynotune dyno. He seemed to know what he was talking about. His argument for using this with the PCIIIusb is that it is a much quicker job, the dyno and the PCIII have compatible software, and there is scope to remap the ignition as required. It will require a financial investment of 3-5 hundy. They do Bruce Telford's Aprilia race bikes too. For me it's worth thinking about but I will need to see what the reserves are like after New Years.

[Sensei]

Well swapped my bike for mates Factory Tuono as he wanted to see what my New Eprom chip was like as he has a Factory Evo chip that come's with the Tuono as part of their race kit & this chip is neally as good as his Aprilia race chip that he had in his 03 RSVR like mine with the Factory pipe that came with it , cost $2800 for both so not cheap ! My new Eprom made it look like SHIT ! We are going up to see Dean & buy another it's that good . Sorry but there is no way you would get a PC3 to better this Chip . It was made in Germany after months of Dyno / road & Track testing till it was Perfect & it is . For under $200 to just put it in ya bike & have perfect fueling from idle to Rev limiter is way Kooler than over a $1000 for pissing round with something that still doesn't get it right ! But keep playing & paying the shops Love that .:yes:

[Clivoris]

But keep playing & paying the shops Love that .:yes:

:laugh: Just spreading the love and keeping the economy running.

[laRIKin]

I can agree that the PCIII is not perfect, unless you put a lot of work in to it. (I think that what you were saying)

I just want something so I can adjust out the bad spots to get the bike to run good if I change stuff. (pipes etc)

A bit like you can change jets etc in a carb.

If I wanted a race bike or a fast bike that I wanted to get every bit of power out of.
I would not be riding a hotted up 1965 based motor, I would have bought a GSX or a R1 or something that is worth spending the money on.

So in my case I just like the old Guzzi motor and want to be able to play with it and not have to take the bike in to the shop to adjust the fuelling when I want to try or change somethings.

So the PCIII should good for what I want, what do you think.

[Sensei]

Talk to these Guys, had one of their Eproms in My 93 907 Ducati & was perfect . Worth a look & read as well .

http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/weblist.html

[TLDV8]

I've heard of prices from just over 5 hundy to 8 hundy.

I payed $360 for my PCIII out of the US.
I seem to remember the RRP here for a PCII was around $550,i got a new one off Ebay for $179 shipped at the time.

:confused: They would have a worldwide distributor cost out the door from Dynojet so you have to wonder about the mark up here...Whoops thats right,it's freight or the exchange rate. :laugh:

[Clivoris]

I payed $360 for my PCIII out of the US.
I seem to remember the RRP here for a PCII was around $550,i got a new one off Ebay for $179 shipped at the time.

:confused: They would have a worldwide distributor cost out the door from Dynojet so you have to wonder about the mark up here...Whoops thats right,it's freight or the exchange rate. :laugh:

Cheers for that. I think it might be time for me to register with e-bay and get some bargain bits for the Tuono. Wouldn't mind a seat cowl and a standard rider seat (mines been monkeyed with).

[TLDV8]

The thing with a TL1000 and other bikes using that engine is there is no removable chip like European bikes.
You either piggyback into the stock ECU with the likes of a Yosh Box (YAFMS) or TEKA which is fine for mild mods like an exhaust change.Things get a little more touchy when you change numerous items..exhaust,airbox,cams etc..The Power Commander's allow changes in the fuel map at 250rpm steps but is only as good as the tuning.



As Mr Sensei has posted the chips available are very good since someone has spent a lot of time on a Dyno to get it right.If you were simply adding an exhaust to a stock bike it would be much easier and cheaper in the long run.
Not much different to when 916SP's etc came with a set of Termignonis and a Chip to match,plug and play.
It probably has to be mentioned European bikes are more refined than the TL's which are old now (ECU bit wise included ) so there is a bigger market of updates available off the shelf.

Ebay can be a great source for items not available here or those grossly overpriced.It just pay's to do your homework on possible freight charges.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=tldv8