Age vs performance:

[crack]

Guess we have all heard on the news about the young kids killed in a high speed accident/loss of control in Auckland on Friday night.
This got me thinking, and I can say in all honesty that this sort of thing was rare in my age groups day, not saying it didn't happen, but it was rare to run away from the police, as they had more powerful cars, or bikes than we had,
IE: Honda 50's, Suzuki 250's, morris 1000, vauxhall 14's, and the like>
If we wanted a car or bike to go faster, you had to hot it up, we were 15-16 year old's.
Yes we use to drink & drive, if stopped the copper new you, and your Dad, and your boss, took your keys, gave you a clip around the ear and took you home, with a warning, let me catch you again and I won't be so nice?.
Shit you were afraid to challenge that.

Now a young kid (thats all we were just kids) can get a 250 bike that will do 200 plus Km/h, or a imported twin turbo car that will give 250 Km/h a nudge.

Roads are more congested:

Now what I wish to ask is this:

How many of you think it is time for age vs performance to be legislated:
EG: Up to age 20 no cage of a capacity greater than 1300cc, and none turbo charged.
EG: Up to age 20 no bike above 125cc, and only one cylinder:

These examples are only examples to bounce about, and get feed back,
IE: age could be altered, some one may come up with another way.

Floors open, what do you think:

:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :rockon: :scooter: :done:

[Lou Girardin]

I agree that there should be restrictions, but it should be based on power to weight ratios. That would allow new riders to have larger less powerful bikes like 883 Sportsters etc.
The main catch that I can see is that heavy, but aerodynamically efficient cars could still be capable of reasonably high speed.

[bull]

ive always thought that putting a governor on all engines to limit to 100km/h as per speed limit would be a wise idea - then the cops could have no governor and voila - cant outrun the cops so no point trying.
As with everything the downfall will be that people will mod it to remove the governor, like people will get bigger engines than allowed too.

I liek the idea of having limits on the vehicles available but should be more relevant to persons experience - alot of young drivers whom are doing rally racing and track racing whom i would allow to be exempt from limited car CC rating due to experience, same with bikes - alot of farm and offroad riders whom should be exempt.

Very hard to find something that will suit the majority when you really think about it, but at least we are thinking about it....

Found the best governor for my car and bike is my wife and three kids, i cruise at the 100-109km/h and no faster.

[Ixion]

.. should be more relevant to persons experience - alot of young drivers whom are doing rally racing and track racing whom i would allow to be exempt from limited car CC rating due to experience, same with bikes - alot of farm and offroad riders whom should be exempt.

...

I disagree with this logic. Assuming that there are to be limits at all (on which I have an open mind), I do not think that racing or off road experience should qualify for an exemption. Indeed, I would argue the reverse, those are the very youngsters who most need to be restricted.

The problem with young drivers is not any lack of ability to DRIVE. They all know how to make the car go, and often are very skilled at it. It is a lack of "don't do stupid shit" ability. A lack of roadcraft, a lack of appreciation of consequences, a "I'm ten foot tall, I can make a car do anything and I'm invulnerable" attitude. And none of this is helped by experience in racing or rally driving. In fact, a young driver with such experience is more likely than most to believe that he can do anything on the road. Because he has "racing skillz".

We see it with motorcyclists, the "road is my racetrack" attitude. And car drivers are no different. I will opine that the most dangerous rider or driver on the road is the young person with the idea that he's a shit hot racer.

[doc]

This is one of those pointless discussions, years of social engineering has caused a myriad of problems.The Kahui twins were the tip of the iceberg there is a generation of kids being bought up out there with the same problem. You cant fix that problem overnight or at all really. They still breed not worrying about the consequences. Look at Africa.

[Bonez]

Roads are more congested:

Now what I wish to ask is this:

How many of you think it is time for age vs performance to be legislated:
EG: Up to age 20 no cage of a capacity greater than 1300cc, and none turbo charged.
EG: Up to age 20 no bike above 125cc, and only one cylinder:

These examples are only examples to bounce about, and get feed back,
IE: age could be altered, some one may come up with another way.

Floors open, what do you think:

:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :rockon: :scooter: :done:
Good points. I don't think single cylinder 125cc is a good idea. I personnally think the 250 is fine. Maybe broken down to limiting to twin cylinder 4 strokes. 4 cylinder and 2-stroke 250s for those that have completed advanced riding courses and a few kms under there belts possibly (don't know how you'd monitor this). I would'nt want anybody to ride/drive a vehicle that could do the current speed limit with a bit in reserve when needed. May another test/refresher for anything over 400cc like some other contries have.

Cars 1300cc fuel injected cars depending on age of the vehicle. 1500cc prior to about 1990.

Self control is a big factor I think. Lack of common sense and peer pressure or perceived peer pressure is a problem. But they've always been around.

[RT527]

Just have a cut out tied to your rego number...do something wrong , mr plod calls in rego....comms come back with an id tag number for the electronic engine cut out, enter it into there gps run Transmitter and 5 secs later your rolling to a stop.

Same could be done for stolen cars, you come out find your Bike/car/Truck missing...pull out cellphone ....enter code ,then wait for it to be found.

[Bonez]

Just have a cut out tied to your rego number...do something wrong , mr plod calls in rego....comms come back with an id tag number for the electronic engine cut out, enter it into there gps run Transmitter and 5 secs later your rolling to a stop.

Thank goodness I ride old shitters.

[Ixion]

Just have a cut out tied to your rego number...do something wrong , mr plod calls in rego....comms come back with an id tag number for the electronic engine cut out, enter it into there gps run Transmitter and 5 secs later your rolling to a stop.

Same could be done for stolen cars, you come out find your Bike/car/Truck missing...pull out cellphone ....enter code ,then wait for it to be found.
Unless this were incorporated into a CDI or immobiliser from the factory it would not be hard to bypass. So once again, it would only work on the law abiding, who are not the target audience.

The ones for stolen vehicles already exist, they would be more practical, because a car theif is not going to have time (or patience) to spend bypasing it.

[Dutchee]

My male cousins were good at doing dumb shit as teenagers. One cousin came screaming down our drive, parked his bike, ran off over to his place (we had a bridge between our homes). Cops figured out which drive (we were on a right of way), saw the bike ticking away & asked whose it was. Ah, that's my nephews, says dad. Don't know what he'd done.
Another time, either him or one of his brothers, along with a mate, decided to smoke out some quail at Waikumete Cemetery. When it was a good fire & totally out of control they high-tailed it back to his place, where his father found out what they'd done & took them to the cop shop.

That is part of it too though, being made to face the consequences of your actions. If it just gets ignored, you're not paying for your mistakes. Video games help with this mentality.

I heard a story about a couple of young kids playing. The little boy slipped & went through a glass window. His sister was "get up johnny, we'll go get you an energy bar" (as per games), she couldn't understand that he was seriously hurt & had to go to hospital. From memory they were around 10.

Society is doing this to itself, aided by finance companies. It doesn't help when people you respect go on about how fast they've driven/ridden.

we can't change the law, but we can change our mindset. Leave the speed for trackdays, both cars & bikes.

[terbang]

I disagree with this logic. Assuming that there are to be limits at all (on which I have an open mind), I do not think that racing or off road experience should qualify for an exemption. Indeed, I would argue the reverse, those are the very youngsters who most need to be restricted.

The problem with young drivers is not any lack of ability to DRIVE. They all know how to make the car go, and often are very skilled at it. It is a lack of "don't do stupid shit" ability. A lack of roadcraft, a lack of appreciation of consequences, a "I'm ten foot tall, I can make a car do anything and I'm invulnerable" attitude. And none of this is helped by experience in racing or rally driving. In fact, a young driver with such experience is more likely than most to believe that he can do anything on the road. Because he has "racing skillz".

We see it with motorcyclists, the "road is my racetrack" attitude. And car drivers are no different. I will opine that the most dangerous rider or driver on the road is the young person with the idea that he's a shit hot racer.

Bang on there my good man. Track riding develops good handling skills for the track but not necessarily good road skills which involves a lot more consideration of self control. Something teenagers rarely have..!

[James Deuce]

Governors and cut outs would be more dangerous than a drunk driver, especially with the average Kiwi's attitude to driving:

1. I have a right to drive the way I want.
2. I have a right to get everywhere "first" and therefore reserve the right to overtake you at the worst possible moment.
3. My car is a weapon and I will threaten you with it if you appear to be better than me at right No. 2 (see above).
4. The Police are only on the roads to raise revenue.
5. Thanks to advances in US television medical dramas, everything can be fixed and no one dies.

You cannot impose those restrictions on people who didn't start driving with them in place already and not expect mass carnage. Imagine three people side by side arriving at the end of an overtaking lane all side by side and refusing to give way to anyone because they have to win. All traveling at the same imposed maximum speed.

Imagine someone on a big sprotsbike, just winding the throttle on on the way out of a corner when Mr Plod nails the immobiliser remotely thanks to Doris Doogood complaining about that young man leaning his motorcycle over to go round corners. Chassis attitude alters radically thanks to 100HP being removed from the drive line. Front tyre gets overwhelmed and our lad lowsides into oncoming traffic.

[car]

Just have a cut out tied to your rego number...do something wrong , mr plod calls in rego....comms come back with an id tag number for the electronic engine cut out, enter it into there gps run Transmitter and 5 secs later your rolling to a stop.

Why bother disabling vehicles? Just tattoo a barcode on the back of everyone's neck, stick an RFID tag in their skull and, when the lawgivers decide that someone has done something they don't like, they can just broadcast a signal to a small pacemaker device in the miscreant's chest and disrupt their heartbeat.

Then it would work in many more situations: if the evildoer were escaping on foot, screwing your wife, reading an unapproved book, being black etc.

[Fub@r]

How many of you think it is time for age vs performance to be legislated:
EG: Up to age 20 no cage of a capacity greater than 1300cc, and none turbo charged.
EG: Up to age 20 no bike above 125cc, and only one cylinder:


1300cc car would be a good idea, but they will still be able to jump in to a 13B Rotary and do well 200kph. With cars I think the laws that be assume that the insurance industry will regulate it as no insurance = no finance. But then you get the dipshit parents who buy the cars for their kids.

As for a 125cc limit they could always get a 2 stroke, or make them ride 250cc Ginny's they only good for 100kph :scooter:

[granma2]

I totally agree. Any learner driver, restricted licence driver or under 20yr old should not have a cage over 1300cc and with no modifications. If Police even suspect the car is modified they have the right to impound. Parents should be accountable for any bad driving by teens.eg if your teen crashes and cant pay reparation, then the parents pay. If the parents cant pay,(even time payment) they go to jail. That covers the ones who dont care about their kids or where they are. Maybe parents wont buy their kids cars that are far too powerful for them. Or at the very least keep their 14-17yr old kids at home and out of a vehicle. Give teens something to look forward to as an adult.
Dealers should be accountable for selling a car over 1300cc to a young driver.
yes I know it would be harsh on the more responsible young drivers, but so was the change from getting a full licence immediatley to learners, restricted etc.
I had to get my learners etc after riding bikes for 36yrs. 10pm curfew sux, when your 46yrs old.
Life is good now that I have my full.:done:

[Hillbilly]

Here in NSW, "P-paters" cannot own a high performance car or a V8. They lose their licence if caught because of all the accidents. They're as mad as hatters in their little jap cages.

Bike restrictions only apply to learners. After getting their "p-Plates" they're not allowed to ride after 10 PM (like cars) or carry a pillion. Even after getting a full licence, you're still not allowed to carry a pillion for a year.

[avgas]

While i like the concept, i dont like the maths.
CC rating is not going to work. as most kids drive mum/dads car. so unless you yourself is going to buy a 1300cc car there goes that theory.
Same with the 125 bikes. I think it should be compulsory that every learner ride a dual sport bike upto 200cc. Even if you dont ride off road the only have a top speed of 120. Where as my RG did 210 in a speed trial with only a few $$$'s spent on it.
16 year old should not be in cars, yes i know that pretty much everyone on here says that they could drive then - but the point being that until you are over 17 you are still a cocky dopey person. And have not yet experinced the fact that life isnt a party.

[TLDV8]

I think if i had to make the choice between being in a car with someone who drove at the speedlimit but had no experiance in dealing with a sudden stop or maintaining control due to loss of traction round a corner (for whatever reason) verses someone who had experianced these things in a controlled enviroment..ie had the repeated chance to cope with it until it became second nature,i would rather ride with them.
Most accidents are due to not knowing how to deal with a situation on the spot.
How many bikes go into a corner,the rider thinks they are going to fast,hits the brakes,goes straight ahead with only a prayer to save them.

I think it is long overdue that constructive training should be part and parcel of learning to drive/ride.
Being able to obtain a license at 15 is outdated and was fine for driving down on the farm 40 years ago.Times have changed and any new rules need to be blanket rules.Once they have if's and but's attached they are worthless.

[Meekey_Mouse]

[QUOTE=Ixion;874610]
It is a lack of "don't do stupid shit" ability. A lack of roadcraft, a lack of appreciation of consequences, a "I'm ten foot tall, I can make a car do anything and I'm invulnerable" attitude. And none of this is helped by experience in racing or rally driving. In fact, a young driver with such experience is more likely than most to believe that he can do anything on the road. Because he has "racing skillz". Some might be like that but don't forget that if the person did do racing/ rally driving then no doubt he has had mates who have been killed/ injured there fore he/she will know how easy it is to slip up and that there are consequences.


We see it with motorcyclists, the "road is my racetrack" attitude. And car drivers are no different. I will opine that the most dangerous rider or driver on the road is the young person with the idea that he's a shit hot racer.

Totally agree with that :yes:

[Meekey_Mouse]

16 year old should not be in cars, yes i know that pretty much everyone on here says that they could drive then - but the point being that until you are over 17 you are still a cocky dopey person. And have not yet experinced the fact that life isnt a party.

Sorry a bit of a rant here....

Just because of other young morons that think they are all hot, then make stupid decisions and crash doesn't mean that then I should not be allowed to drive... because of their mistakes.

I'm 17, I have my full license and all the time I've been driving I have not been cocky. I know I'm only a kid and learning, although I've been driving for over 10 years. We use to own a farm, I learnt how to emergency brake in wet conditions, keep an eye out for things you can't always see like rabbit holes (comes in handy for pot holes) etc... I know the farm is not the same as the road, but my experiences there has greatly helped me on the road. So in my view I don't see why I should not be able to drive because of another persons mistake.

Rant over :done:

[Ixion]

A good case could probably be made for setting the licence age for young men at 3 or 4 years higher than young women.

This is an option that is being considered at present by the Gubbernmint.

My (unscientific) obervation is that where young drivers are observed to be deficient , young male drivers are usually technically proficient but reckless. Young female drivers are more likely to be technically unskilled and inconsiderate on the roads, but not reckless.

Of course we must remember that many young people are good , careful, courteous drivers. In many cases more so than their elders.

We can see right here on this site examples of both the good and the bad.

So it might be thought harsh to punish the many for the derelictions of the few. Which is one reason why I have an open mind about changes to the present regime.

Perhaps stricter enforcement , and harsher penalties would be a better approach.

Young men are usually at their worst when they have mates in the car, showing off. The present restrictions on carrying passengers are widely ignored. Perhaps automatic impoundment of the vehicle in such cases would be salutary?

[SuperDave]

I think there should be power restriction to cars similar to what they are doing with bikes on learners and restricted. How to do this I'm unsure of as cc restrictions obviously have pitfalls ie 250 two strokes and 1300cc rotaries.
Electronic hp restrictions with severe punishment if caught driving a car/bike that is not restricted and against a condition on your licence is one way.

Though dunno how this will work because it sounds awfully hard to implement as well as police effectively.

However I don't think the solution lies in written restrictions and laws. I think these will only work to supplement a PROPER licence gaining process, not this bullshit testing process that we have at present. It's really a joke, it's way too easy to get a licence, be it learner, restricted or full.

The fact that it's so easy to get a licence here instantly translates into people (especially youth) not valueing their legality to drive, they treat it like shit because it's literally just been given to them on a plate - for fuckall work and a couple hundred dollars.

[oldrider]

there should be less laws and rules, harsher penalties, less loopholes in law, more consistent policing, more support for police, greater responsibility and accountability for judges and above all greater emphasis on "personal responsibility and accountability of the individual members of our society!"

Every adult in New Zealand should really take a good hard look at what contribution "they" make towards the standards of public behaviour that we have here today.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone of condemnation.

I am sure that I personally have contributed to the decline in behavioural standards of the generations of today even though I am not personally aware of any such individual contribution.

We do what we do, even though sometimes we know not what we do.

Monkey do as monkey see, the behaviour of the younger generations are only a reflection of the behaviour of the generations before them but with a few added flavors and enhancements to make them stand out from those that have gone before them.

Freedom means greater personal responsibility and individual accountability and for any personal action there has to be a clear positive or negative personal consequence!

IE: Reward or punishment ranging somewhere between public adulation and death!

In New Zealand it is always someone Else's fault, never our own! :innocent: Cheers John.

[Two Smoker]

Raise the age for drivers licences. 17-18 would be good. I dont see any problem with the current licence system with bikes... How many people on 250's do you hear about getting killed, or being in a serious accident (those oh shit i fell over at 30kmh on gravel doesnt count)???

There is lots of good ideas such as restricting cc limits on cars and power restrictions. But it isnt practical, as avgas said "What about mummy and daddy's car???" Raising the age is the easiest one.

[Motu]

Just because of other young morons that think they are all hot, then make stupid decisions and crash doesn't mean that then I should not be allowed to drive... because of their mistakes.


The reason you have to wear a helmet at all times and are restricted to 250's as a learner is because of mistakes made by morons over 35 years ago.These people are just asking for more restrictions on morons.

It's fine when you want the make laws to limit the actions of others.....but a different story when the restrictions effect you personally.

[NighthawkNZ]

There is lots of good ideas such as restricting cc limits on cars and power restrictions. But it isnt practical, as avgas said "What about mummy and daddy's car???" Raising the age is the easiest one.

What about mummy and daddy's car... if they can't afford there own why should they drive mummys or daddys car... I had to buy my first bike... through blood sweat and tears... I was never allowed to ride dads... or drive the car... If they can't afford to buy one then then simply don't go on the road till they have a job and buy there own... if mummy and daddy want to buy a car form them... so be it... I have no problem with that either.

However...

Kids and youth today are getting everything handed to them on a platter... They don't earn it... as said above the licence system is a joke... practically given to them... Mommy and daddy buy a car and or bike... given to them. List goes on...

If they don't earn the right (for whatever) they not going to respect it are they. no?!?

Raising the age for both drinking, and been able to drive would help, but its not going to solve the issue of taking responsibility is it, and lets be honest here that is at the crusts of the matter!

[RT527]

Why bother disabling vehicles? Just tattoo a barcode on the back of everyone's neck, stick an RFID tag in their skull and, when the lawgivers decide that someone has done something they don't like, they can just broadcast a signal to a small pacemaker device in the miscreant's chest and disrupt their heartbeat.

Then it would work in many more situations: if the evildoer were escaping on foot, screwing your wife, reading an unapproved book, being black etc.

too much like big brother , i Dont mind some way of disabling a vehicle...besides if the little bugger is running from the cops hes up to no good, in my opinion if they did disable his bike and he lowsided ...so what, his actions put him there so theres no one to blame except himself.

If it was a traffic stop, then the person who doesnt run wouldnt have there motor disabled would they.

And as for the cut out Idea, was just a thought...I`m not a mechanic so what ever would work would be decided by the experts.

the security system would be the way to go.

Its been done on tv both here and overseas.

[Two Smoker]

What about mummy and daddy's car... if they can't afford there own why should they drive mummys or daddys car... I had to buy my first bike... through blood sweat and tears... I was never allowed to ride dads... or drive the car... If they can't afford to buy one then then simply don't go on the road till they have a job and buy there own... if mummy and daddy want to buy a car form them... so be it... I have no problem with that either.

However...

Kids and youth today are getting everything handed to them on a platter... They don't earn it... as said above the licence system is a joke... practically given to them... Mommy and daddy buy a car and or bike... given to them. List goes on...

If they don't earn the right (for whatever) they not going to respect it are they. no?!?

Raising the age for both drinking, and been able to drive would help, but its not going to solve the issue of taking responsibility is it, and lets be honest here that is at the crusts of the matter!

Good point, if they buy there own car (which i did with my first car and bike) they have more appreciation and respect for it. But surely using your parents car would only be the purpose of learning to drive under their supervision?

Taking responsibility??? That is a hard thing to teach. Compulsory defensive driving courses and tougher testing is required.

[Pixie]

a lack of appreciation of consequences, a "I'm ten foot tall, I can make a car do anything and I'm invulnerable" attitude.

A sharpened 6" steel spike mounted in front of the driver's head is a good reminder.
I'm serious

[James Deuce]

too much like big brother , i Dont mind some way of disabling a vehicle...besides if the little bugger is running from the cops hes up to no good, in my opinion if they did disable his bike and he lowsided ...so what, his actions put him there so theres no one to blame except himself.

.

You missed my point completely. Some old biddy's perception of what constitutes lawful behaviour does not give her the right to request the potential injury or death of another individual. That individual could be you commuting to work.

[AllanB]

write to the government - I have on this very matter. Yes to restricted cars for new drivers and yes to raising the driving age.

[Moxy]

You missed my point completely. Some old biddy's perception of what constitutes lawful behaviour does not give her the right to request the potential injury or death of another individual. That individual could be you commuting to work.

Also, there were tons of cases where a person was prosecuted for some crime, their court case lasted for months or years, they were put in prison for years, only to find out years later that they were innocent all along, then released with a "sorry" and a destroyed life.

Disabling somebodys engine like above could potentially result in serious injury - is the grandparent poster (RT527) sure that the chance of human error, or prejudice in conviction is so low that it's worth crippling somebody?

[NighthawkNZ]

As part of the pull over proceedure... the first thing the cop should do is to obtain the keys to the vehicle, if all ok the cop hands back and sends on merry way... That would stop the ones that try to run after they have been pulled over...

However disabling the engine while in motion would cause other unforseeable problems

[Ixion]

Or follow the Yank practice "Please step out of the car , Sir, keeping your hands in plain view". More difficult here though where the cops don't have the "or, bang bang" option.

Wouldn't be too hard though for the cop to do the "step out of the car" thing on his loud hailer. And maybe a law change making it illegal not to. If they don't cop can assume the worst.

[doc]

For fucks sake people who wants more laws ? Fixes nothing they have trouble enforceing the laws they have now, they are only thought of after the event. This is called Evolution things are going to happen like this and probably more often until nature/Darwin cleans out the gene pool. Pointless wasting your effort talking about it sort of like talk back radio. Get on your bike and go for a ride nice day for it, I've been and might go for another.

[Waylander]

That is part of it too though, being made to face the consequences of your actions. If it just gets ignored, you're not paying for your mistakes. Video games help with this mentality.

I heard a story about a couple of young kids playing. The little boy slipped & went through a glass window. His sister was "get up johnny, we'll go get you an energy bar" (as per games), she couldn't understand that he was seriously hurt & had to go to hospital. From memory they were around 10.

Society is doing this to itself, aided by finance companies. It doesn't help when people you respect go on about how fast they've driven/ridden.

we can't change the law, but we can change our mindset. Leave the speed for trackdays, both cars & bikes.
I'm getting tired of people blaming video games. I grew up playing vid-games and I'm fairly normal. I even know several young kids that play them and they know the difference between reality and fantasy.

Ask why would a kid not know the difference and you'll get the real problem. Parents are expecting things like TV, Movies, School teachers and such to raise their kids for them. And the welfare state of this country is only making a lot of parents even lazier. Now they don't have to get jobs to survive.

Sad thing really that mankind has stepped out of natural selection and the lazy ones keep breeding into more lazy ones, while the rest of us have to work harder to support them.

[James Deuce]

Parents are expecting things like TV, Movies, School teachers and such to raise their kids for them. And the welfare state of this country is only making a lot of parents even lazier. Now they don't have to get jobs to survive.



I'm getting tired of being held up as an example of why "the kids" aren't OK.

Once again for those of you slow of learning - I as a parent am not responsible for creating the minority of kids who create the majority of headlines. I am tired of the word parent being used as an insult. I hope that when you have the opportunity to "parent" that every decision you make and every direction you give your child works exactly as you want it to. It won't. The successful vs unsuccessful direction runs at about a ratio of 20-1 in favour of unsuccessful.

If you want a "reason", you would do better to try and review the development of a society where both parents are expected to work thanks to the creation of an economy that demands that both parents work to maintain a reasonable standard of living. How about a Prime Minister that wants to remove males from any position of responsibility in regard to child raising or who publicly states that she wants all women in the workforce - whether that is a good thing for child development, maintaining an adult relationship, or even economically thanks to the cost of childcare.

Some of the little bastards out there aren't a product of their family either. Everyone is quite happy to quote the person who rises above their circumstances in spite of their upbringing but no one seems willing to acknowledge that there are at least as many kids with everything going for them, including parents who are pretty damn good at parenting, who are just dicks, and not because they are spoiled either.

I agree whole heartedly with your comments about video games though. 20 years ago it was TV. 30-50 years ago it was that damn Rock Music and those darn reefers. Before that it was absinthe. Before that it was Whiskey. Before that it was Gin.

[Waylander]

I'm getting tired of being held up as an example of why "the kids" aren't OK.

Once again for those of you slow of learning - I as a parent am not responsible for creating the minority of kids who create the majority of headlines. I am tired of the word parent being used as an insult. I hope that when you have the opportunity to "parent" that every decision you make and every direction you give your child works exactly as you want it to. It won't. The successful vs unsuccessful direction runs at about a ratio of 20-1 in favour of unsuccessful.

If you want a "reason", you would do better to try and review the development of a society where both parents are expected to work thanks to the creation of an economy that demands that both parents work to maintain a reasonable standard of living. How about a Prime Minister that wants to remove males from any position of responsibility in regard to child raising or who publicly states that she wants all women in the workforce - whether that is a good thing for child development, maintaining an adult relationship, or even economically thanks to the cost of childcare.

Some of the little bastards out there aren't a product of their family either. Everyone is quite happy to quote the person who rises above their circumstances in spite of their upbringing but no one seems willing to acknowledge that there are at least as many kids with everything going for them, including parents who are pretty damn good at parenting, who are just dicks, and not because they are spoiled either.

I agree whole heartedly with your comments about video games though. 20 years ago it was TV. 30-50 years ago it was that damn Rock Music and those darn reefers. Before that it was absinthe. Before that it was Whiskey. Before that it was Gin.
Perhaps I generalized a bit much there. Not all parents are lazy as you point out Jim and not all shit head kids are the cause of the parents either but a majority of them seem to come from families on the dole whose adults are usually drinking alot (as in near every night and day) and barely pay attention to thier kids or let them get away with anything.

I'm not a father yet but I hope to be one day and I already know that when my son/daughter does something stupid I will show them the error of thier ways just as my father did for me. They may hate me when I do but atleast I wont be adding to the drain on society. And maybe one day they may realize that I was doing them a favor.

[Krayy]

As part of the pull over proceedure... the first thing the cop should do is to obtain the keys to the vehicle, if all ok the cop hands back and sends on merry way... That would stop the ones that try to run after they have been pulled over...

However disabling the engine while in motion would cause other unforseeable problems
The tech has been around for ages to remote disable on board ECUs via radio signals. I believe that most of these systems will not cause the wheels to lock, but will enable the "driver" (or "f**kwit") to pull over a sthe power fades, similar to running out of gas. If the powers that be would get a clue, making these kinds of ECUs de-riguer on all modified vehicles it could save a lot of lives.

Also, in Europe they use speed recoirders for all heavy vehicles which can be used to write up tickets for excessive speeds obver the last 24 hours. Modern ECUs can record a heap of info and retrospective toicketing might be a damn good idea. And f**k the question of who was driving, just give it to the owner.

[Bonez]

And f**k the question of who was driving, just give it to the owner.So if someone was speeding in your vehicle you'd be quite happy to pay the fine?

[rwh]

Or follow the Yank practice "Please step out of the car , Sir, keeping your hands in plain view". More difficult here though where the cops don't have the "or, bang bang" option.

Wouldn't be too hard though for the cop to do the "step out of the car" thing on his loud hailer. And maybe a law change making it illegal not to. If they don't cop can assume the worst.

Can they?

I read a story where the cops went knocking on the door of a suspect. No answer. They were pretty sure the guy was in there, so knocked the door down. Banged on the bedroom door. Still no answer. Charged in and kicked the guy roughly out of bed, hands behind his back etc.

Turned out the guy they wanted was the next house; this guy was deaf.

Do you want to require a big sticker on the back of the car if the driver can't walk? Can't hear? Can't find his seatbelt buckle?

Richard
(How does that work btw? How do you get to your seatbelt buckle while keeping your hands in plain view?)
[story from 'People of the Eye' Rachel McKee/BWB 2001, paraphrased from memory]

[Swoop]

Perhaps stricter enforcement, and harsher penalties would be a better approach.

Perhaps automatic impoundment of the vehicle in such cases would be salutary?
I think it is far too simple to get ones licence back when it has been taken away from a driver.
Perhaps a session of re-education is needed before it is simply handed back.

"Off to the Gulag with him!"

I'm getting tired of people blaming video games. I grew up playing vid-games and I'm fairly normal.
I'm terrified of space invaders landing before my fortresses are destroyed by their vertically firing missiles...:shit:

[sunhuntin]

i disagree with restricting bikes to 125 singles. i know a lot of 125s and 250s can go a lot faster than, say, a harley. honestly, id feel safer learning on a harley than anything like the 250 sprotsbikes. weight to power, harleys are the slower end of the spectrum.
i do agree with restricting cars though...specially for 15 year olds/learners of any age. also, raise the age they can get a full license, so they cant do like this 16 year old and take passengers.

[RT527]

You missed my point completely. Some old biddy's perception of what constitutes lawful behaviour does not give her the right to request the potential injury or death of another individual. That individual could be you commuting to work.

No I didnt miss your point...just debating the point about people being responsible for THEIR actions.....my opinion may not match many other people on here and I would never advocate deliberatly hurting someone else, But had there been an immobilisation device on a lot of vehicles who have done a runner then there would still be an awful amount of people alive today.
Remember I`m talking worse case scenario ie: bad crim robs a bank jumps in car with police in hot pursuit......for all of what 200 mtres as the grinning cop sits and pushes the code to immobilise vehicle...I can see lots of problems tho around that issue too....Like car with no plates, once car stops whats to stop him taking a hostage etc etc....I only had an Idea ..and an opinion and dont expect a lecture on the wrongs and rights of what if poor little johnny whos running from the police after hes killed someone gets hurt whilest being disabled by the law whos there to Protect us, also if a bike lowsides chances of someone in a car which is struck by the bike surviving are extremely high as the bike will in most instances go under the front of the car......but your talking about corners Im suggesting that they probably wouldnt even make it to a corner, but hey , if it saves 5 out of 7 lives I would be prepared to accept that , better than 7 out of 7 innocents being maimed or killed ...shit the police are not allowed to run a vehicle off the road in case they hurt the poor driver.


Man we all need to Harden up and take responsibility for our actions.

If i run from the law ...crash and kill myself then it is my fault ...if i run and kill someone else its still my fault not the police , not my mother father brother ......it would be my decision to do it ( which is something that I would not do.)

[RT527]

is the grandparent poster (RT527) sure that the chance of human error, or prejudice in conviction is so low that it's worth crippling somebody?



OK so the guy whos doing a runner is completly innocent of doing no wrong , thought failing to pull over for a police officer an offence and as for the grandparent part , I take that as an insult, Im younger than Jim2 and have probably seen more carnage on the roads than youd like too.but i still think responsibility still lies with the person breaking the law...so its ok now to run from the cops because they`ll give up chasing you if you go over 140 is it.

Just thought of something...You can put a gun in someones hand but the gun cant fire itself with the safety on !!!

[MikeyG]

Check out the Aussie LAMS system for bikes. It is based on power to weight ratio with a maximum weight and maximum power limits, only available in some states though.

The same states do not allow learner or restricted drivers to drive V8's or turbos.

We need some compulsary driver training as well.

From what I heard though the driver of the crashed teens was unlicensed/suspended license so more license restrictions would have had no effect on the end result.

[crack]

From what I see, no one wants more laws, and yes from a technology point of view, the ability to remotely shut a vehicle down, or track it has been with us for some time.
I do not think this the answer either.

Q: Do the police cars have GPS DATA recording?.

While no one like more LAWS, I do think, and this is only my opinion, that some of the LAWS we have are totally stupid, and needless, while as in the case of AGE vs PERFORMANCE I think we are lacking and have not evolved as have our cousins across the ditch:

As with all things you cannot please all the people all the time:

I am of the opinion the the Govt of the day,doesn't Govern, it leaves industry and commerce to regulate itself, and it developes consultants for this and that, that we pay for, in the mean time mayhem continues.

If I was to ask those that are parents , how they would react as I described in the posting, if the copper gave your son a kick in the backside and bought him home to you, how would you react:

If you are a Teenager, or slightly elder how would you react:

While I agree that most young drivers have generally good driving skills, it is the decision making process that goes with the young that is the problem.

IE: Peer pressure, all of a sudden in a situation outside of their control, I don't think we can just say re- education is the way to resolve it, teenagers and those in their 20's, will by nature do dumb things, the problem as I see it is that we have nothing in the system that will allow for the idiocy of youth.

Again I think we the elder need to be moulding the younger, this can only be done by parenting and good laws:

No one teach's us how to be parents, we use by and large, how we were bought up as a yard stick, and alter what we think we could do better in, or ignor and try something else all together.

As Jim said 20-1 success:

But one thing I absolutely abhore is the needless and sensless loss of young lives:

As some on here are in no doubt Coppers, Ambo's, Dr's, Nurses, Teachers, Lawyers, Judges, F--K probably even the odd POLITICIAN, I think that we need something, and the postings, I think refect this.

But hey I don't have the answers, only thoughts, and opinions.

:love: :love: :love: :love: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares:

[RT527]

Q: Do the police cars have GPS DATA recording?.


Yup And Laptops





If I was to ask those that are parents , how they would react as I described in the posting, if the copper gave your son a kick in the backside and bought him home to you, how would you react:



Id shake the coppers hand ...take my boy inside and give him another kick in the bum

[NighthawkNZ]

Id shake the coppers hand ...take my boy inside and give him another kick in the bum

ditto... :yes:

[crack]

My 2 cents worth: DITTO also:

And correction, that should read 1 in 20 success:

[Ixion]

If I was to ask those that are parents , how they would react as I described in the posting, if the copper gave your son a kick in the backside and bought him home to you, how would you react:


When I was a young rider, that was the ultimate humiliation and degradation (except, I guess, crashing. that would have been naff beyond measure, but noone did that I recall, or if they did, they made sure to keep it a deep secret). To be brought home in the Snakemobile for the Snake to have a long chat with Mum and Dad.And your bike was taken to Snake Central, where it had to be collected the next day. But not by you, it had to be collected by Mum or Dad. Who had to have ANOTHER long chat with Snake Senior. (I doubt there was the slightest legislative warrant for any of this. But noone was going to argue with a Snake - we weren't *THAT* stupid)

Never happened to me, though one time I only got out of it by grovelling magnificently and swearing by everything I could think of that I'd never do anything foolish ever again, I've learned my lesson etc etc. Bastard did make me push the bike all the way home though, while he rode behind.

Did happen to several mates. It took a LONG time to live down the ignominy ("Hah, yer Mum got yer bike back for you yet, jeez fancy being carted home in the snakemobile like a lost kid yah yah "). And yes, the miscreant could be sure of a damn good clip round the ears from Dad, a long woeful dirge from Mum (" Why do you want that nasty dangerous thing, it's only cos we love you etc etc" - which actually hurt more than the clip round the ears), and in bad cases the invocation of Gran or Aunty or some other feared matriarch (" I always knew you'd come to no good, just going to break your poor Mother's heart , etc etc").And it went without saying that the errant one would be "grounded" for a LONG time. The shame of it, having the neighbours see the Snakemobile in the drive, Mum would never live it down.

Needless to say, I now think it an excellent scheme, and should I have a child brought home in like circumstance, the necessary clip would be promptly administered (and damn Sue Bradford), with thanks to the snake and apologies for wasting his time.

EDIT. I think it was the local SnakeShop that the bike had to be collected from, not Snake Central.

[Mr. Peanut]

I'm not paying for a better system thank you very much! I've got stadiums to build...

[Pixie]

I'm bored with this discussion.
Has anyone considered leaving the deadshits to kill themselves?
I'm more concerned should they survive long enough to reproduce

[imdying]

Has anyone considered leaving the deadshits to kill themselves?
I'm more concerned should they survive long enough to reproduce

The problem is they sometimes take others with them.

Sterilization I agree with though. Bit tough to dish out willy nilly though. Use it in place of the death sentence... take some of their swimmers on ice, on the off chance at a later date they are proven to be innocent because it does happen, and then sterlize them. This is of course on top of the regular sentence.

[Hillbilly]

Check out the Aussie LAMS system for bikes. It is based on power to weight ratio with a maximum weight and maximum power limits, only available in some states though....


Three good examples of this rule are the GS500(f) the Hyosung GT650/Comet 650 and the Ducati Monster 620.

The Suzukis are straight forward, 48hp 500cc, with a dry weight of 180kg. Now, the Ducati and the Hyosung are made in special LAMS versions, both restricted. I can only speak with cerainty about the Hyosung GT650 series. The bikes have longer carbie slides that don't fully open, restricting the rev range to just over 6,000 where things get athsmatic . The power output is dropped from 79hp to around 45hp. They're sold that way, and then when the owner gets their "P-Plates" (provisional licence) they can have it de-restricted for aroung $165 AUD back to the full 79hp. The GT650R weighs 195kg dry thanks to the twin spar steel frame. If it had an alloy frame like it's cousin the SV650, it wouldn't be LAMS approved.

The Ducatis however, are not able to be de-restricted. The LAMS "Lite" version of the Monster 620 weighs 177kg dry with an unspecified hp rating. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself here:

http://www.ducati.com.au/MOnster620lite.php

Just think, a Learner's own Ducati. Isn't OZ wonderful....:love:

DUCATI MONSTER PRICE LIST

M 620 Dark/Lite 2-Disc Lite learner legal, ACT, NSW, TAS, SA
2006 AU$ 11995.00 NZ$ 14795.00

M 620 Av. in Learner Legal Version ACT, NSW, TAS, SA
2006 AU$ 12795.00 NZ$ 15795.00

[Lou Girardin]

I liek the idea of having limits on the vehicles available but should be more relevant to persons experience - alot of young drivers whom are doing rally racing and track racing whom i would allow to be exempt from limited car CC rating due to experience, same with bikes -.

Racing experience has nearly nothing to do with public road driving skills. There's more to driving safely on the road than car control.

[Mr. Peanut]

Why dont you just ask their teachers. Make driver training a part of the public school system, and set individual limits according to behaviour and ability.

[onearmedbandit]

Yeah, 'cos schools do such a great job as they are.

[LilSel]

Havent read the whole thread... but from the first one...

Why let teenage BOY racers, who think they have big dicks cuz they have fast cars, ruin it for everyone else???

I am 22.... I have had my car (Subaru 2L twin turbo) for a few years now... and not once have I crashed... Sure I can go stupidly fast in it... but its about being responsible... same with my bike... only 250... but still hauls when I twist the wrist... there is a time and a place for that tho.

I would've be gutted if I was not able to have my car/bike due to age.

It wouldnt matter if a boy racer was in a mini or on a pushbike... they'd find ways to go fast... it all comes down to being responsible and making educated decisions.... who's to say that they wouldnt just STEAL a car that goes fast seeming as they couldnt legally own one??!! or mummy n daddys cars being taken for joy rides=more accidents.... :done:

[Waylander]

Havent read the whole thread... but from the first one...

Why let teenage BOY racers, who think they have big dicks cuz they have fast cars, ruin it for everyone else???

Are you trying to imply that boys are the only idiot drivers? lol how many here have been cut off or had some other inconsiderate move done y a woman driving a car no matter the age.

Boys just do it all in one lump of years,women drag it out for thier entire lives lol


BTW, I'm stirring.

[LilSel]

Are you trying to imply that boys are the only idiot drivers? lol how many here have been cut off or had some other inconsiderate move done y a woman driving a car no matter the age.

Boys just do it all in one lump of years,women drag it out for thier entire lives lol


BTW, I'm stirring.

LOL!!! no im not implying boys are the only idiot drivers... shit we all know some women are shockers!!
In terms of the whole 'boy racer''girl racer''teenage' thing... the majority are boys wearing hoodies with pants that are halfway around their ankles... oh and a hat to the side too lol... :yes:

Just gotta look at the newspapers/statistics... its the boys that are writing themselves and their mates off in their cars...

EDIT: the girls just get drunk n pregnant at 16...

Nice stir :love:

[James Deuce]

But you have a point Waylander. When commuting I find that truck and van drivers (irrespective of gender) move over to let you by where women driving private vehicles change lanes into you, and generally seem to be doing anything except concentrating on driving.

Pastybee witnessed an incident where the women actually changed lanes, hit me and then continued to try and push me into the barrier while looking right at me with her mouth open. Her windows were all mostly obscured with internal condensation.

I wasn't even lane splitting at the time.

It is something that happens a lot (to me anyway) when traveling on the motorway in peak times and I usually avoid those incidents before they develop by keeping a close eye on vehicle body language and moving about as much as possible, staying ahead of peripheral vision zones.

[terbang]

[LEFT]continued to try and push me into the barrier while looking right at me with her mouth open. Her windows were all mostly obscured with internal condensation.



It's those sheilas in 4WD shopping baskets that I keep an eye on..

[Dai]

Comming into work last week. Northbound from Papakura to Newmarket.

Cage moving quite noticably in a serpentine motion in its own lane. WHen I pulle up beside it I glanced in and lo and behold there was a young lady casually eating her cereal from a bowl.

Bowl held in her left hand which also was holding the bottom of the steering wheel, right hand holding the spoon and shovelling the cereal to he mouth. Every time she went to get another spoonful the car verved left. When she moved the spoon to her mouth the car whent to the right. Something to do with her lowering her eyes everytime she filled up.

All this at speed up to 100kph.

Once I saw this I opened up and left this very "talented" driver way behind me.

If I had of seen a cop on the motorway I would have reported her

[LilSel]

This is about Age Vs Performance right?? lol...

Being non gender specific... some youth can handle high powered cars n not write themselves or others off... sure a few bad apples (youths) spoil things... shouldnt mean all youth are put in the same basket...

(more expensive insurance/licence waiting times etc are plenty enough for under 25's.. IMO... (maybe cuz im under 25)... but still... I along with other mates of mine... are not racers etc... drive high power turbo cars...*shrug*... I find having a turbo/fast car helps me sometimes to get out of potentially damaging situations... :done:

[imdying]

Why let teenage BOY racers, who think they have big dicks cuz they have fast cars, ruin it for everyone else???

I am 22.... I have had my car (Subaru 2L twin turbo) for a few years now... and not once have I crashed... Sure I can go stupidly fast in it... but its about being responsible... same with my bike... only 250... but still hauls when I twist the wrist... there is a time and a place for that tho.One could argue that you're the worst kind of NZ driver... you've got a car too powerful for NZ roads and drivers abilities, and you think you're safe and everyone else is a bad driver. Sure, whenever I speed, it's an appropriate time...

[imdying]

This is about Age Vs Performance right?? lol...

Being non gender specific... some youth can handle high powered cars n not write themselves or others off... You cannot state that as fact, for all you know, they may have just been the lucky ones. Ask around people driving those sorts of cars, I bet they've all had a 'moment' at some stage or another. Worse still, it was probably their experience and 'skill' that saved them, not the grace of God.

[LilSel]

One could argue that you're the worst kind of NZ driver... you've got a car too powerful for NZ roads and drivers abilities, and you think you're safe and everyone else is a bad driver. Sure, whenever I speed, it's an appropriate time...

LOL... Sure... whatever you say :yes:
car too powerful?? in who's eyes?... driver ability?... *bites tongue*... :shutup: lol.... (speed kills... exactly my point!!! time and a place= track!)

[LilSel]

You cannot state that as fact, for all you know, they may have just been the lucky ones. Ask around people driving those sorts of cars, I bet they've all had a 'moment' at some stage or another. Worse still, it was probably their experience and 'skill' that saved them, not the grace of God.

fair enough... what im trying to say is that some DO have the skill!

EDIT: Not saying I have lots and lots of 'skill' but do have some... from experiences, car driving course thru work (pushed company vehicles to their limits, learing to control the cars when they lose traction and skid etc...) on the track!!... Even the (D1NZ) drift cars... those guys have skills!! my first attempt at drifting cousins drift car (on track!!)... I came in after being out for only bout 5mins and far out.. I had gained the utmost respect for those guys and the way they control their machines, makes me want to learn more.... I know some take it to the streets... and they are idiots for doing so... but high power cars does not mean dangerous fast driving!... blah blah rambling now... *bored*

[imdying]

fair enough... what im trying to say is that some DO have the skill!But how would you measure that skill? How would you keep those people who can't drive well enough out of those cars?

EDIT: Not saying I have lots and lots of 'skill' but do have some... from experiences, car driving course thru work (pushed company vehicles to their limits, learing to control the cars when they lose traction and skid etc...) on the track!!... 99.99% of the time those skills are useless on the road, and yet, by acquiring that skill set, it would be easier to mistake oneself for having good road craft.

[LilSel]

99.99% of the time those skills are useless on the road, and yet, by acquiring that skill set, it would be easier to mistake oneself for having good road craft.

So driver training courses etc are irrelevant? why have them then? the emergency services all do those courses...
I understand what you are saying... you dont just get a licence n that means you can drive/ride well... but surely by doin professional training etc its gotta make some kinda a diff...

I just dont think its all speed because of fast cars thats killing these kids...
Alcohol... drugs... lack of responsiblity and no respect for the law is what's killing them... the vehicle is really irrelevant... they could be in a bambina or a mini and still go fast enough to be killed...

[imdying]

I just dont think its all speed because of fast cars thats killing these kids...
Alcohol... drugs... lack of responsiblity and no respect for the law is what's killing them... the vehicle is really irrelevant... they could be in a bambina or a mini and still go fast enough to be killed...I would go even further along that line... lack of respect for anyone including themselves. The vehicle can't be irrelevant though, it's a factor that presumably can be measured... the insurance companies would sure like to think so, and I'm guessing that their data is at least as accurate as anything the government has.

Powerful cars are easy to get into trouble in, there appears to be no doubt about that, I think we're fortunate that driver aids have progressed at the pace they have, or the stats could be much much worse? Having said that, bikes have no driver aids, and are considerably more powerful than twenty years ago, as a rider to bike ratio, I wonder if they're actually killing more people than they use to? I guess only the insurance companies would know that (I bet the government have no idea about which bikes are 'killers', just that a 'biker' died), and given that they aren't impossible or crazy expensive to insure even for the relatively young, I'm guessing not?

[Lou Girardin]

Comming into work last week. Northbound from Papakura to Newmarket.

Cage moving quite noticably in a serpentine motion in its own lane. WHen I pulle up beside it I glanced in and lo and behold there was a young lady casually eating her cereal from a bowl.

Bowl held in her left hand which also was holding the bottom of the steering wheel, right hand holding the spoon and shovelling the cereal to he mouth. Every time she went to get another spoonful the car verved left. When she moved the spoon to her mouth the car whent to the right. Something to do with her lowering her eyes everytime she filled up.

All this at speed up to 100kph.

Once I saw this I opened up and left this very "talented" driver way behind me.

If I had of seen a cop on the motorway I would have reported her

This sounds like a job for...............................Ta dahhhhh

Stebel man.


One blast of that and she'll be picking cornflakes out of her crutch all day.

[disenfranchised]

Now what I wish to ask is this:

How many of you think it is time for age vs performance to be legislated:
EG: Up to age 20 no cage of a capacity greater than 1300cc, and none turbo charged.
EG: Up to age 20 no bike above 125cc, and only one cylinder:

These examples are only examples to bounce about, and get feed back,
IE: age could be altered, some one may come up with another way.

Floors open, what do you think:

Similar to the riding a scooter on a full car license thing.
Limit the Power output, Max speed, and cc size of the engine.
(Not that many scooter riders seem to obey all 3 of these restrictions)

And instead of age, use a graduated licensing system:
Learner - must be supervised, car restricted by the license of the supervisor
Restricted - 1300cc, 100km/h max, 60Kw output
Full Basic - 2000cc, 120km/h max, 80Kw output
Full Advanced - 3000cc 150km/h max, 120Kw output
Race Driver - unlimited

not sure what figures to give to bikes really...even a 250cc with 22Kw seems plenty fast enough for me at the mo.

Make the advanced and race licenses have to be retested every few years, don't worry about age as the time between each license would mean you'd have to be old enough by the time you got to a race license, plus the extra revenue from all the extra licensing would offset the need for so many traffic cops, so they could go back to working on real crime.

[eviltwin]

when i was 15 i had a dirt bike in waiouru...got caught doing 125kph (80kph limit back then) on the dessert road by the only civvy cop there...i did a runner, but eventually got caught.
i was snapped for: no licence, no WOF, no rego, carrying a pillion passenger with no foot pegs or helmets, speeding, evading the police, flipping the bird...$25 fine.
he took my spark plug cap and key and said push it home ya little pricks!
we hotwired it and fucked off down the road 5 mins later, speeding again...who should drive past us, you guessed it, the same cop...we did another runner, half hour chase through the residential area. thought we had outsmarted/lost him but when we got back to my house he was sitting up the driveway. his son was my younger brothers best friend and knew where i lived. the following week i went for my drivers licence with the same cop.

my point is at that age, everything is a game.

fortunately back then it i was limited to driving my mums mini, which i think had a top end of about 110kph.

kids these days are no different in attitude, they just have access to more powerful vehicles.

governers etc won't bloody work, if the government tried to enforce that on me i would simply unbolt it and throw it in the bin, fuck the consequences!

there should be a couple of simple rules for driving:
if you're still a virgin...you shouldn't drive!
if your conversation skills are monosyllabic...you shouldn't drive!
if you were recently imported from asia and have an international licence...you shouldn't drive!

i like the idea of youth being allowed to drive, but in smaller/slower vehicles only, giving them time to learn to drive first before putting the foot down.

we had guys at school who drove $300 ford anglias with fuckin rich parents too, we didn't care what it looked like, it was transport / freedom, these day its all ego! if a retard parent wants to give their kid a more powerful car...it should get impounded! the cops are too fuckin soft.

[Waylander]

LOL!!! no im not implying boys are the only idiot drivers... shit we all know some women are shockers!!
In terms of the whole 'boy racer''girl racer''teenage' thing... the majority are boys wearing hoodies with pants that are halfway around their ankles... oh and a hat to the side too lol... :yes:

Just gotta look at the newspapers/statistics... its the boys that are writing themselves and their mates off in their cars...

EDIT: the girls just get drunk n pregnant at 16...

Nice stir :love:
lol yea I know as I said in another thread somewhere, there are times I'm ashamed of being a young male in this country.

Are you gonna be at Busa Pete's party?:innocent:



But you have a point Waylander. When commuting I find that truck and van drivers (irrespective of gender) move over to let you by where women driving private vehicles change lanes into you, and generally seem to be doing anything except concentrating on driving.

Pastybee witnessed an incident where the women actually changed lanes, hit me and then continued to try and push me into the barrier while looking right at me with her mouth open. Her windows were all mostly obscured with internal condensation.

I wasn't even lane splitting at the time.

It is something that happens a lot (to me anyway) when traveling on the motorway in peak times and I usually avoid those incidents before they develop by keeping a close eye on vehicle body language and moving about as much as possible, staying ahead of peripheral vision zones.


lol funny that. I've never had a close call while lanesplitting but when politely sitting in a lane like the rest of the world a car will unknowingly (or maybe they do know) do something stupid that puts me at risk.

I would rather risk my own life than someone else risk it for me.

[crack]

All good stuff:

I like the throttle slide Idea! (give that man a DB)

I use the young male as a yard stick, but on speaking to a AMBO and a Cop friend, they inform me that the young lady of today is just as likely to own a sport twin turbo and drive pissed, as is a male, anyone want to comment on this?

As I read I see that I wasn't the only stupid prick in my youth, but as said, we didn't have stuff that could do 250+kph! shit and old Morris 8, 65 mph, old Vauxhall 14 with back door removed, rear seat out, T 20 carried to meetings in this manner, and dickie seat in the boot for piss drinking mates? shit only 70 mph,?

The legislation, whatever, needs to be simple and inexpensively managed, IE: No Rotary engines, no turbo charged engines say to age 25: and then only if someone had been to a defensive driving course, and been driving for an amount of time that signals a suitable level of experiance.

Limit the size of the Car, to an age and experiance level.

Limit the performance of the bike to an age and experiance level:

The age and experiance level gets displayed with a colour sticker:

If a Copper suspects the machine may have more performance that the rider/driver is entitled, the copper tests it, yes he gets in with a hand held GPS, and drives it, if he is right the machine gets confiscated and sold by police auction.

IF this happens, the perpetrator cannot drive on the public road again until an age of 25.

When my old man took my motorbike off me, by giving it to someone I didn't know, shit it hurt, I had to ride a pushbike to work, all my work mates asking what happened to your motorbike???? shit this lasted a two weeks period:

I have never ever spoken to him in the manner for which he took it off me for.

( Never found out where he put it)

Fines, just do not work, take the machinary away, a few lossing their jobs because thay cannot get to work, or can't get their pregnant girl friend to the hospital? this is the level it has to be aimed at.

Shit to reinforce the responsibility thing I would give them a fine for every day they arrived late for work, or a weeks extension to the license suspension.

I do not know, only ramblings, but if there is a POLITICIAN amongst the members of this site, or a copper,or an ambo, how about relaying a bit of the heart ache you see ?

One thing is definate, we all want the same thing from the postings, just have to arrive at a solution and F---ing well pitch it.

I have seen the absolute grief and devastation, and have heard the words, IF ONLY, 100% of the time it is the survivors either injured, or Parents and siblings that pay the price, and yes the Pregnent Mother to be, and a little gift, that will never know his/her Daddy/Mummy.

Sound corny?

:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :whocares:

[Lou Girardin]

If a Copper suspects the machine may have more performance that the rider/driver is entitled, the copper tests it, yes he gets in with a hand held GPS, and drives it, if he is right the machine gets confiscated and sold by police auction.



This is totally impractical on many levels.
Most cops don't have bike licences.
You can't test performance and hold a GPS at the same time.
A GPS doesn't measure acceleration.
The courts may not find that a cop is an expert in vehicle performance testing.
Ad infinitum.

A power to weight ratio based on manufacturers specs is the best answer.
If a cop suspects the vehicle has been modified, and this could be something as obvious as a big bore exhaust, externally venting wastegate or pod air cleaner, it should be sent to a vehicle testing facility to be checked. As they will do for excessively noisy exhausts. A tolerance of 20% will account for normal performance variations between similar vehicles. Exemptions should be available, but reasonably uncommon, to allow for situations where a restricted driver has no option but to use a non-compliant family vehicle. Eg. Rural families.
Any breach results in confiscation and sale of the vehicle. No other penalty.

[Ixion]

The law already requires any modification that affects the engine (including exhausts, headers, ECUs etc) to undergo small volume compliance, unless the power increase (if any) is less than +20%. The differences we are talking about here, between the power of vehicles inexperienced drivers have access to at present, and what might be considered appropriate, are large. The effect of a big bore exhaust (other than in nuisance factor) is not going to matter.

Just use the aussie system. A list of approved vehicles for novices.

Grandfather anything earlier than , say, 1980. The rare high performance car of early days will not come into the hands of kids. Allow any naturally aspirated engine of less than Y cc, then list any other allowed vehicles. It doesn't have to list every possible model, just the reasonably common ones.If you are a novice and the car you yearn for isn't on the list, tough. Sorted.

[Skyryder]

I'm getting tired of being held up as an example of why "the kids" aren't OK.

Once again for those of you slow of learning - I as a parent am not responsible for creating the minority of kids who create the majority of headlines. I am tired of the word parent being used as an insult. I hope that when you have the opportunity to "parent" that every decision you make and every direction you give your child works exactly as you want it to. It won't. The successful vs unsuccessful direction runs at about a ratio of 20-1 in favour of unsuccessful.

If you want a "reason", you would do better to try and review the development of a society where both parents are expected to work thanks to the creation of an economy that demands that both parents work to maintain a reasonable standard of living. How about a Prime Minister that wants to remove males from any position of responsibility in regard to child raising or who publicly states that she wants all women in the workforce - whether that is a good thing for child development, maintaining an adult relationship, or even economically thanks to the cost of childcare.

Some of the little bastards out there aren't a product of their family either. Everyone is quite happy to quote the person who rises above their circumstances in spite of their upbringing but no one seems willing to acknowledge that there are at least as many kids with everything going for them, including parents who are pretty damn good at parenting, who are just dicks, and not because they are spoiled either.

I agree whole heartedly with your comments about video games though. 20 years ago it was TV. 30-50 years ago it was that damn Rock Music and those darn reefers. Before that it was absinthe. Before that it was Whiskey. Before that it was Gin.

You just got my vote for post of the year. Take note some of you and FRAME IT FOR FUTURE REFERANCE.


Skyryder

[Motu]

Take a look at the cars these kids are totaling in a really big way - most of them would fit within your learner restriction plans.You have all told me my NX Coupe is not a performance car - let me loose on city streets with the pedal to the metal and I could wrap it around a powerpole so both ends meet on the other side.

Make them drive a Lada 2104 until they are 25.

[Ixion]

Perhaps though the benefit would come, not from the actual horsepower or speed limitation (after all, you can kill yourself at 100kph easily enough), but rather from defusing the "focus" on speed and performance. In bike terms, if novice riders were restricted to GN250s it is unlikely there would be much a "boi-racer" culture develop.

In the present environment, possession of a more powerful, faster car than others has become a "proving you're a man (or woman!) " thing. And of course once the claims are made "my car is faster than yours, I can drive faster than you", then the next thing is proving the claims.

When I was a kid it wasn't just the outright lack of performance from the cars we had , it was the fact that trying to prove how fast you were in a Morrie Minor just made you look silly.

[scumdog]

A power to weight ratio based on manufacturers specs is the best answer.
If a cop suspects the vehicle has been modified, and this could be something as obvious as a big bore exhaust, externally venting wastegate or pod air cleaner, it should be sent to a vehicle testing facility to be checked. As they will do for excessively noisy exhausts. A tolerance of 20% will account for normal performance variations between similar vehicles. Exemptions should be available, but reasonably uncommon, to allow for situations where a restricted driver has no option but to use a non-compliant family vehicle. Eg. Rural families.
Any breach results in confiscation and sale of the vehicle. No other penalty.

And then there would be rampant applications for the exemptions as mentioned by you Lou, where Dad has a modified vehicle and daughter needs to drive to crochet classes......

[Motu]

You are making a good case for the Lada....

[nadroj]

Common sence
Appropriate education
Self dicipline
Appropriate penalties - may be basic military training

The main thing is to keep it simple

[crack]

[QUOTE=Lou Girardin;877050]This is totally impractical on many levels.
Most cops don't have bike licences.
You can't test performance and hold a GPS at the same time.
A GPS doesn't measure acceleration.
The courts may not find that a cop is an expert in vehicle performance testing.

#1 Well there in lies part of the policing problem:

#2 You do not have to hold the GPS, It can be placed on the dash, or seat, the Antenae could be on the dash, or cable and magnetic base and just placed on the roof:

#3 Yes it does see thread title.

#4 Criteria set down by legislation, the vehicle either meets it or it doesn/t.

[Lou Girardin]

[QUOTE=Lou Girardin;877050]This is totally impractical on many levels.
Most cops don't have bike licences.
You can't test performance and hold a GPS at the same time.
A GPS doesn't measure acceleration.
The courts may not find that a cop is an expert in vehicle performance testing.

#1 Well there in lies part of the policing problem:

#2 You do not have to hold the GPS, It can be placed on the dash, or seat, the Antenae could be on the dash, or cable and magnetic base and just placed on the roof:

#3 Yes it does see thread title.

#4 Criteria set down by legislation, the vehicle either meets it or it doesn/t.



You said "handheld".
For the rest, you need to check the reality of enforcement and law. All your proposal would do is enrichen more lawyers.

[Pixie]

The problem is they sometimes take others with them.

Sterilization I agree with though. Bit tough to dish out willy nilly though. Use it in place of the death sentence... take some of their swimmers on ice, on the off chance at a later date they are proven to be innocent because it does happen, and then sterlize them. This is of course on top of the regular sentence.

Willy nilly sterilisation.
Is that via removal of the male member?
Is "willy nilly" latin for "no penis"?