Road policing activities

[Skyryder]

Some interesting stuff here.

http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/2006/road-policing-programme-2006-07/road-policing-programme-2006-07.html

36 Part Two - Road Policing Activities
6. Performance
measurement.

Is worth a look in it's own right. I just love how they have bought the competitive element (scorecard) into the Road Policing Programme 06/07 between districts............and indaviduals.


Skyryder

[Ixion]

Hmm


A major initiative in 2003/04 was the development of sector codes to assist with risk analysis and identifi cation, especially on state highways. Sector code analysis involves dividing the road network into stretches of roads, groups of intersections or geographical areas and assigning them with risk ratings based on algorithms that consider a variety of data including reported crashes.
This type of analysis has resulted in the design and implementation of crash books which are currently being implemented nationally. Crash books are analytical documents that are intended to provide long-term risk profi les of stretches of roads, groups of intersections and geographical areas within a police district or area. ...
The nationwide implementation of the crash book system began during 2004/05 a...

Risk targeted patrol plans (RTPPs) are operational tasking documents that are critical to ensure the success of the risk targeted road policing model. The primary aim of RTPPs is to allocate strategic enforcement hours to known safety risks often by location and time. RTPPs are issued to both dedicated road policing and general duties staff and require suffi cient analysis to enable the frontline supervisor to direct the delivery of strategic enforcement hours tactically in support of the objectives of the RSAP.


Now , it seems to me that these crash books should be in the public domain. The public after all, have a right to know what roads are safe and wat are not, and the information is funded at taxpayer expense. and such information could hardly be argued to be confidential

And if the police are indeed following these RTPPs , then the conclusion is obvious. And no, I'm not going to spell it out.

[Ixion]

Nope, I just read very fast and have a devious mind.

[El Dopa]

You have a lot of spare time on your hands dude :spudbn:

Generally speaking, its the propellerheads with too much time on their hands, and a semi-autistic approach to fact-crunching, who unearth the most interesting stuff - the stuff that has been well-hidden, or quietly buried somewhere in the hope that no-one can be bothered to go to the trouble of unearthing it. Usually because its embarrassing for someone.

Just making a general observation, not a specific point about this info.

[Coyote]

Too many words

[terbang]

Starts off fairly good:


Integrating safety into the land transport system
A systemic approach to land transport management builds safety in, rather than adds safety
on. Therefore safety should be considered in all transport decisions and designed into our
infrastructure.
Our road network should be designed, and our land­use planning done, in a way that
challenges the acceptability of road deaths and serious injuries, and accommodates the safety
needs of all users -- pedestrians, cyclists, public transport users and motorists.


However reading on..:


36 Part Two - Road Policing Activities
6. Performance
measurement
Quarterly performance reports alternate focus between:
· a national scorecard comparing current performance between districts; and
· an individual district's performance progress over time.

[spudchucka]

Some interesting stuff here.

Skyryder

Why don't you just join up and save yourself all the time you spend looking this crap up on the net?

[Skyryder]

Why don't you just join up and save yourself all the time you spend looking this crap up on the net?

Shit we agree on something. Just not too sure what.

1 You want me to join up

or the

2 Road Policing Programme 06/07 is a load of crap.


Skyryder

[spudchucka]

2 Road Policing Programme 06/07 is a load of crap.


Skyryder

You can please some of the people......... You know how it goes.:whocares:

[Grahameeboy]

The Police have a job to do. It is obvious they have targets like a lot of civilian jobs, to achieve so not sure why this should be an issue.

I guess some guys have an issue with how targetting is spread....i.e. speeding and I guess there are times when this may have some validation, however, as Spud says you can't please everyone blah blah.

At the end of day, we know the score, we ride bikes and we have a choice.

Happy New Year and and quiet night for the Cops.....just avoid us at Busa's please and leave the sniffer dogs at home cause Dover will be there!!!

[Clockwork]

I dont personally do traffic but i have done a four month secondment there. We were expected to meet a rough number of tickets. I dont know what your winging about skyryder, if an officer is assigned to road policing duties then there has to be a way of tracking if he is actually going out and issuing Ions Tons and 1V reports....otherwise he could get away with doing nothing.

I am monitored on how many arrests i make and what problem geographical areas i have been targeting....i think its also needed to check what traffic cops are issuing out and then compare to what that is nationally.

You can never have too much information.

Surely you're not sugesting that Policemen can't be trusted to do their job!!

[scumdog]

Surely you're not sugesting that Policemen can't be trusted to do their job!!

Of course they can - it's just in the road policing side of things ACC want to see proof that their money is being used for what it was intended for.

Name me on job where there is not some form of checks and balances??

[Skyryder]

Surely you're not sugesting that Policemen can't be trusted to do their job!!


Not at all. I have some regard for the rank and file frontliners.

I am saying that the Police in as much as the Road Safety Strategy 2010, have become the enforcers of Government Policy. Road safety has now become an industry where self interested parties vie for their own media attention. This can be seen in the recent Herald story of the 27 December where Racheal Ford of the Campaign against Drugs on Roads said "Police estimates that 10 more people will die and 120 will be injured on the roads before the new year are unacceptable." This is based on an estimate and is linked to the groups opposition to the closures of drug rehabilitation centres. The group is 'useing a police estimatate to enhance their opposition to the closure of drug rehabilatation centres.

In other words not only have the police become pawns to Govt. policy they have unwittenly allowed themselves to become instraments of lobby groups.



Skyryder

[Ixion]

The argument that it is necessary for cops to give out tickets to prove they are doing their job is easily refuted. Moreover it may also easily be shown that the present practice of measuring performance by the number of tickets handed out is not in fact an effective performance measure.

The objective of road policing should be, not to "catch people", but to ensure the roads are safe.This could easily be measured by monitoring the percentage of people who were OBEYING the law. More people obeying the law means the police are doing their job and attaining their objective (which is safe roads, not prosecutions).

Of course, those who were not obeying the law would still receive tickets. But that would be incidental to the purpose of making the roads safe, not , as at present, the purpose of the job.

Moreover, the purpose of any performance or incentive scheme is to maximise the behaviour being measured. A salesman is measured on sales because we want him to maximise those. A surgeon is measured by the number of patients who live, not the number that die, because we want to maximise survival.

At present the police are measured and incentivised on the basis of bad driving. Inevitably, that will work to increase bad driving. This already happens , in many ways. For instance, if the purpose of policing is to make the roads safe, then it is best for a highway patrol car to be visible. That will cause people to be more careful to obey the law which will make the roads safer, but there will be fewer tickets given out. But if the purpose of policing is to give out tickets, it is better for the patrol car to be hidden. Then drivers will not be prompted to obey the law, and more tickets will be written. and the roads will be less safe.

And, of course, we can see every day that that is exactly what happens. The present method of measurement actually works to make the roads less safe. Because every police officer at present , and the police as an organisation, have a vested interest in ensuring that the roads are not safe. The worse the driving, the easier it is for police to achieve their targets, so they will not work to make driving better. Their incentive scheme incentivises bad driving and unsafe roads.

[MotoGirl]

Too many words

I totaly agree! I work on conclusions - don't want to decipher the information myself :whocares:

[Skyryder]

Of course they can - it's just in the road policing side of things ACC want to see proof that their money is being used for what it was intended for.

Name me on job where there is not some form of checks and balances??

You are talking about an audit. Of course money allocated needs to be seen that it has been spent where allocated.

“Outcomes are not about checks and balances. They are performance related. Strategies are the mechanism that ‘outcomes are achieved.

My original post is in opposition where outcomes are measured against districts and this is the purpose of 'scorecards.' To record winning districts and losing districts.

As you once said in one of your posts some time ago the funding is based on a business model. On that basis it is investment and profit e.g revinue gathering.

Skyryder

[SwanTiger]

Communicating within partnerships
Continuous improvement depends on continual discussion and coordination between the various road safety interests at all levels.

Effective communication within road safety partnerships helps everyone understand their role in achieving road safety goals.

For example, road safety action planning, including network safety coordination planning, will be critical in the drive for further road safety improvement.

Does this mean that organisations such as BRONZ can have a more active and weighted role in conveying the opinion of New Zealand motorcyclist? I hope so, as I like many others have little to no faith in those in Government who champion these 'elaborate' road safety intiatives.



Road policing community resources (Greater Auckland Region)
Four sworn offi cers are assigned to the dedicated traffi c groups in the North Shore Waitakere district area. These offi cers will service the greater Auckland region with a particular focus on urban arterial routes.

A key element of their role will entail working closely with various local government and community groups, using a problem solving approach to identify and target road safety hot spots with both Police and community resources.

These sworn officers will work as an adjunct within the wider Urban Arterial initiative and will maintain a record of issues tackled and problems solved to track effectiveness.

Who would these community groups be and how would the Police choose which community groups to approach for assistance with their road safety intiative?



Police vehicles as police stations
Police frontline vehicles will be fi tted with a boot-located reinforced computer which will function as the equivalent of a police station computing infrastructure server.

This computer will enable global positioning system (GPS) functionality and provide the computing capability required for future vehicle-based computing, such as vehicle-based E-Query, web-enabled police applications access, in-vehicle video and vehicle based Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR).

Another bullshit-waste-tax-payers-money initiative that will have no real effect on the level of service Police provide to the community. It would be a lot cheaper to setup another channel like metro for checks and have an additional operator manning a computer and radio.

As for ANPR, I don't believe this will be effective. It sounds like a good idea, however nothing will beat good old fashion policing. Our country isn't that big, yet, and such technology will only complicate the officers job.

[Ixion]

WTF is "network safety coordination planning". And why does it make the hair on the back of my neck stand up?

[SwanTiger]

It's alright Ixion, when was the last time you saw a Highway Patrol unit or speed camera on one of New Zealand's many gravel roads.



National Road Safety Advisory Group (NRSAG)
The National Road Safety Advisory Group (NRSAG) comprises a wide range of public and private sector agencies which have an interest in road safety. It provides a forum for agencies to provide independent advice and bring outstanding road safety issues to the attention of the NRSC and other appropriate agencies.

Members include Land Transport NZ, Police, Ministry of Transport, ACC, Transit NZ, Local Government NZ, Ministry of Health (Public Health Group), Te Puni Kokiri, Alcohol Advisory Council of NZ, Ministry of Justice, NZ School Trustees Association, NZ Automobile Association, Department of Internal Affairs, a road safety coordinators' representative, Cycle Support NZ, Energy Effi ciency Conservation Authority (EECA), Ministry of Youth Affairs and the Ministry of Justice (Crime Prevention Unit).

Who the hell are Cycle Support NZ? Why isn't BRONZ on this list? Were they rejected or have they not bothered to muscle their name onto the list?

The objective would be to convey the interest of motorcyclist in New Zealand, however at a bare minimum they should be going to these meetings for the free nibbles and coffee.

[Ixion]

The difficulty of monitoring traffic on gravel roads had occured to me. But, on the other hand, I have seen cops of late on double digit state highways , where everyone knows they have no business to be. so nothing is safe, methinks.

The NRSAG is "by invitation only". BRONZ would be happy to toddle along if invited. It is exceeding inprobable it ever will be, since the first requirement for an invitation is that the group must either be a government department (as almost all members are) or be certain to toe the government line. The group meets very rarely and its only purpose in life is to provide window dressing for government decisions.

[Skyryder]

The NRSAG is "by invitation only". BRONZ would be happy to toddle along if invited. It is exceeding inprobable it ever will be, since the first requirement for an invitation is that the group must either be a government department (as almost all members are) or be certain to toe the government line. The group meets very rarely and its only purpose in life is to provide window dressing for government decisions.

Nowhere are motocylcist refered to in any safety campaigns. In fact they (we) do not even figure in the document.

1.5 User-group
outcomes
Two particular user groups ­ pedestrians and cyclists ­ are singled out in the strategy because
they have particular safety requirements. The safety framework for these user groups will be
developed in association with a broader national walking and cycling strategy.

Skyryder

[SwanTiger]

Nowhere are motocylcist refered to in any safety campaigns. In fact they (we) do not even figure in the document.

The only related item I found was near the end of the document which made reference to (what I beleive) is the number of Motorcycles that exceeded 40 kmp/h in the 2005/2006 period. I may be incorrect, search the page for the term "M/Cyclist".

Which is interesting, however not suprising.

Isn't there already a safety intiative that followed on from the "look out for bikes" campaign? I think someone posted up a survey form on Kiwi Biker and highlighted their new campaign to get motorcyclist wearing the correct potective gear.

[Swoop]

WTF is "network safety coordination planning".

*sniff, sniff* I smell consultants!
Scum of the earth.

[El Dopa]

I totaly agree! I work on conclusions - don't want to decipher the information myself

Only works if you implicitly trust the person who comes to that particular conclusion, though.

[Lou Girardin]

Now now, the Polioce are solely responsible for the drop in this years road toll. Improved roads, vehicles, and medical care have nothing to do with it at all.
Nor has the drop in vehicle usage when fuel prices were sky high.
It's all down to the boys in blue writing up Mum's and Dad's for 11 k's over the limit.
Well done Guys!

[Grahameeboy]

Now now, the Polioce are solely responsible for the drop in this years road toll. Improved roads, vehicles, and medical care have nothing to do with it at all.
Nor has the drop in vehicle usage when fuel prices were sky high.
It's all down to the boys in blue writing up Mum's and Dad's for 11 k's over the limit.
Well done Guys!

Improved roads mean nothing unless driving standards improve.

Vehicles are built safer with air bags, ABS etc, however, cars are faster and again fast cars are not safe in hands of bad drivers.

I doubt that fuel prices have any bearing, but happy to be corrected.

Yes, a ticket for being 11k over does seem petty when it is an open road, however, that is the law whether we like it or not. I guess it is also down to individual attitude of Police officer which is another debate......on way back home from 250 ride there were 3 of us doing about 140k and the cop car just flashed his lights.....open road, good call I say.

I know a few years back NZ had the 2nd highest toll rate so something is wrong so maybe we are not mature enough in NZ to do more than 100k.

[The Pastor]

Hey man.

Speed Kills.

Hear about that poor guy at the new years eve party in waikato? He did 53 in a 50 zone a few weeks before.


Speed Kills, slow down.


<img src="http://www.kissingthesky.com/images/speed2.jpg">

SPEED KILLS

[Skyryder]

Dude thats rubbish. Of course we are enforcers of government policy, what they tell us to police we police. We dont make the law we enforce it. We dont do Frank Baniramawamakama's when we are not happy with how the law is dicated to us, its not our place.

What wrong with using Police estimates? An estimate based on historical trends and current data is never solid but its a way of predicting what may happen. All sorts of agencies use Police statistics or estimates for even the most mundane purposes.

Of course the "Campaign against Drugs on Roads" are going to talk to the media and quote statistics and estimates...thats what Campaigns do.

Your coming across pre biased and totally single minded against the Police.



You seem to miss the point. The estimate was used by the CANDOR TRUST for their own political purposes.

The estimates reflect a failed government road safety policy, Rachael Ford, spokeswoman for Candor (the Campaign against Drugs on Roads), said yesterday.

"Our crash rate, serious injuries and hospitalisation have steadily trended upwards if you take a close look - parallel to the closure of drug rehabilitation centres," she said.

All the data I can find suggests the complete opposite.

Two things emerge from this.
1 The Police are producing estimates that arrive in the public domain. This may be deliberate or not. I don't know but I suspect that the estimate was given out to the media.

2 CANDOR have criticised the closing of drug rehabiltation centres and used police estimates for their own political purposes.

That is not criticising the police. But on the other hand I can not see any motive as to why the police would release crash estimates other than to counter the downward trend of roadside trauma's.

I'm a cynical sod. I'm just wondering if someone is playing political games here.

What do you think.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Mmmm well if the information they have used is incorrect and they knowingly used it for some kind of court purpose to open drug trauma places then they would be liable for possibly fraud depending on how they profited or obtained something from it.

All police statistics and estimates are available to any New Zealander under the official information act...the media is however always wanting everything they can get under the privacy act so it is possible they obtained the information from the media....who have left themselves wide open to public outcry and loss of faith if it was in fact they who allegedly intentionally altered data.

I accept the possibility that CANDOR may have been responding to a media interview and that the release was not of their cause. But their response to the estimate, while of no direct resposnibility of the police does, at least to me, highlight that there is an emerging 'speed industry.'

I acknowledge the other points you have made.

Skyryder

[scumdog]

The argument that it is necessary for cops to give out tickets to prove they are doing their job is easily refuted. Moreover it may also easily be shown that the present practice of measuring performance by the number of tickets handed out is not in fact an effective performance measure.

The objective of road policing should be, not to "catch people", but to ensure the roads are safe.This could easily be measured by monitoring the percentage of people who were OBEYING the law. More people obeying the law means the police are doing their job and attaining their objective (which is safe roads, not prosecutions).

Of course, those who were not obeying the law would still receive tickets. But that would be incidental to the purpose of making the roads safe, not , as at present, the purpose of the job.
.

Aha Mr Ixion you're onto my cunning scheme for that is how I operate!!

I monitor the percentage OBEYING the law - and ignore them.

The rest I give tickets to.

[scumdog]

Na man these are awesome. I have found so many criminals who lie to me about who they are and have no ID...quick check on the on board computer gives me his photo and any active charges, warrant or bail conditions.

Also straight away know if a cars stolen, no waiting 8th in line on a friday night for a check from comms.

They contain GPS and other really helpful tools which have made a huge difference in my job.

Yup, worked when I was with the cops in the US - no down time, no radio chatter frustrating you, straight to the info you needed at the time and without delay.:yes:

Well worth getting.

[mstriumph]

..........Name me on job where there is not some form of checks and balances??

queen
god
prime minister of australia

one may be deposed
one may be discounted
one may be dumped from office

----------- but it would take so long, and so much more effort than most peopls are willing to expend that, to all intents & purposes there ARE no checks & balances ..........

nevertheless, i do follow your drift .............

[Lou Girardin]

Improved roads mean nothing unless driving standards improve.

Vehicles are built safer with air bags, ABS etc, however, cars are faster and again fast cars are not safe in hands of bad drivers.

I doubt that fuel prices have any bearing, but happy to be corrected.

.

Think before you post GMan, what about motorway barriers?
What about more divided carriageways separating traffic?
How about fuel prices cutting the km's travelled?
Have you any evidence that drivers of 'safe' cars drive faster?
How about the proliferation of cell phones meaning that emergency services are called to accidents quicker, and choppers allowing quicker transit to hospitals.

This is what has cut the road toll. Not cops just "doing their jobs".

[scumdog]

Think before you post GMan, what about motorway barriers?
What about more divided carriageways separating traffic?
How about fuel prices cutting the km's travelled?
Have you any evidence that drivers of 'safe' cars drive faster?
How about the proliferation of cell phones meaning that emergency services are called to accidents quicker, and choppers allowing quicker transit to hospitals.

This is what has cut the road toll. Not cops just "doing their jobs".

I dtect G'eboy is taking exception to the other end of the stick which kinda indicates the cops have absolutely nothing to do with the road toll being lower than the past..

[Lou Girardin]

It's alright Ixion, when was the last time you saw a Highway Patrol unit or speed camera on one of New Zealand's many gravel roads.

Unsealed roads are our safest in terms of accident numbers. The cops aren't needed there.
They're needed out at night catching drunks, boy-racers playing PS behind the wheel and other general motoring retards, not during the day. (The highest revenue producing period)

[scumdog]

Unsealed roads are our safest in terms of accident numbers. The cops aren't needed there.
They're needed out at night catching drunks, boy-racers playing PS behind the wheel and other general motoring retards, not during the day. (The highest revenue producing period)

Once again I do not fit the 'mold'.
I like using the radar at night, people don't have visual warning that your there and nobody flashes their lights.

And you meet a nicer type of people, the type that say "I don't see why a man of my obvious experience and good driving ability can't go as fast as he wants to at night on a road like this" (said after getting picked up at 132kph).

The obvious answer was "I quite agree sir, it's just you have to pay a little for that privelege" - ah yes, that degree in Tact and Diplomacy is really paying of eh?:laugh: :killingme

[Lou Girardin]

Once again I do not fit the 'mold'.


I know you aren't mouldy scummy, the trouble is that what I said is the norm for the higher populated parts of the country.

You'll rarely see an HP car up on SH16 at night f'rinstance.
If there were, they may have got the retards in a van, before they did a double somersault followed by a half twist outside Pixies place.

[Bonez]

Aha Mr Ixion you're onto my cunning scheme for that is how I operate!!

I monitor the percentage OBEYING the law - and ignore them.

The rest I give tickets to.
Been a few nice cops our way lately. Seem more interested in around town antics than open road stuff. Could have been pulled over a few times over the last week or so.

[RT527]

You'll rarely see an HP car up on SH16 at night f'rinstance.
If there were, they may have got the retards in a van, before they did a double somersault followed by a half twist outside Pixies place.

If you go Fishing Lou , Do you Catch All Of The Fish In The Sea?????.

Guys we all make Mistakes, we all are human, And despite a few Bad apples , I`d say without a doubt that for what the govt pays our boys in Blue, they Do the best Damn Job that they Can.
I know one or two guys...well actually quite a lot of them , and its just from talking to them with respect that I get the same back.
I`m a truck driver and get pulled over by CVIU a few times a year,...They Know most of the Drivers that they pull from reputation IE if your a smart arse then most of the officers will Know and treat you the same, if you treat them as human beings you get respect back, I will Often ring up my mates at cviu if i have a problem understanding a rule or regulation and want clarification, Which Often means I will be subjected to a beating and a pepper spray at the nearest weighbridge...well not really just jks there.

What I am saying is that rather than criticise try doing the job yourself then see what you think...

piss poor wage
little support from superiors
Public judgement
Abuse

And the list goes on.
But at least we still have the right to Freedom Of speech .

[Indoo]

I think the problem with the whole ticket based performance measuring of traffic cops is that all it does is encourage them to police where they are most likely to get tickets, not where excessive speed is dangerous or an accident black spot.

Everytime I enter Dome Valley, I see a ton of signs either side warning that its an accident black spot and to slow down, I have not yet seen a speed camera or HP policing the area. Yet on the passing lanes prior to and after you often get a speed camera van sitting at the end of a lane punishing those who have waited to pass slow traffic.

I know quite a few of the poor buggers and I think its wrong that some idiot focused on performance targets rather than proper policing dictates what they do.

[Ixion]

Exactly so. My point precisely. When the performance measure is tickets written any cop with half a brain is going to hang about where he can most easily pick up tickets. Which is those passing lanes.

Whereas if the performance measure was fewer accidents in Dome Valley, they would all hang out there. Some motorists (those driving unsafely) would still get tickets. But fewer than from the passing lanes. But, the visible strong presence would make all traffic more careful, and the accident rate there would reduce.

[doc]

I dont personally do traffic but i have done a four month secondment there. We were expected to meet a rough number of tickets. I dont know what your winging about skyryder, if an officer is assigned to road policing duties then there has to be a way of tracking if he is actually going out and issuing Ions Tons and 1V reports....otherwise he could get away with doing nothing.

I am monitored on how many arrests i make and what problem geographical areas i have been targeting....i think its also needed to check what traffic cops are issuing out and then compare to what that is nationally.

You can never have too much information.

So what "makes your day" "Fucks someone else's day" even though you can be wrong and we have to spend time and money correcting your error in monitoring. Your a f..king wanker if you think you are doing a real job. Tosser... get out of the trough and see what it is like for real. You have lost touch. Don't try and defend yourself on a motorcycle internet forum. We are all guilty as soon as we get on a bike, that is capable of exceeding the speed limit.And now moving on the weather looks fine tomorrow another chance for you to save me from myself.

[doc]

If you go Fishing Lou , Do you Catch All Of The Fish In The Sea?????.

Guys we all make Mistakes, we all are human, And despite a few Bad apples , I`d say without a doubt that for what the govt pays our boys in Blue, they Do the best Damn Job that they Can.
I know one or two guys...well actually quite a lot of them , and its just from talking to them with respect that I get the same back.
I`m a truck driver and get pulled over by CVIU a few times a year,...They Know most of the Drivers that they pull from reputation IE if your a smart arse then most of the officers will Know and treat you the same, if you treat them as human beings you get respect back, I will Often ring up my mates at cviu if i have a problem understanding a rule or regulation and want clarification, Which Often means I will be subjected to a beating and a pepper spray at the nearest weighbridge...well not really just jks there.

What I am saying is that rather than criticise try doing the job yourself then see what you think...

piss poor wage
little support from superiors
Public judgement
Abuse

And the list goes on.
But at least we still have the right to Freedom Of speech .

Are you a volunteer?

[Grahameeboy]

Think before you post GMan, what about motorway barriers?

Oh so do accidents only happen on the other side then?

What about more divided carriageways separating traffic?

Oh so that stops cars having accidents on their side of road?

How about fuel prices cutting the km's travelled?

Most Kiwi's hate travelling for more than 30 minutes so not sure this makes a difference.

Have you any evidence that drivers of 'safe' cars drive faster?

Not on me but I remember when the Audi Quattro came out. It had 4 wheel drive so drivers went faster thinking they could take bends faster and they had a a lot of crashes.

I was saying that cars are faster now.

How about the proliferation of cell phones meaning that emergency services are called to accidents quicker, and choppers allowing quicker transit to hospitals.

So the accident has still happened right?

This is what has cut the road toll. Not cops just "doing their jobs".

Sorry cops not required anymore. You can all go home cause cellphones are reducing the road toll...............but don't text whilst driving?

......................................

[SwanTiger]

Yup, worked when I was with the cops in the US - no down time, no radio chatter frustrating you, straight to the info you needed at the time and without delay.:yes:

Well worth getting.
I was out with my Dad the other night and overheard on the radio a constable asking comms how to operate the thing! Gave me a chuckle.

[Skyryder]

Call me a fucking wanker and a tosser? Your a fuckwit, well actually just a fuck cause you havent got any wits .:angry:

A few more cops on the road like you and SD and there would not be the need for Tasors. We'd kill our selves with laughing.

Skyryder

[iwilde]

If you go Fishing Lou , Do you Catch All Of The Fish In The Sea?????.

Guys we all make Mistakes, we all are human, And despite a few Bad apples , I`d say without a doubt that for what the govt pays our boys in Blue, they Do the best Damn Job that they Can.
I know one or two guys...well actually quite a lot of them , and its just from talking to them with respect that I get the same back.
I`m a truck driver and get pulled over by CVIU a few times a year,...They Know most of the Drivers that they pull from reputation IE if your a smart arse then most of the officers will Know and treat you the same, if you treat them as human beings you get respect back, I will Often ring up my mates at cviu if i have a problem understanding a rule or regulation and want clarification, Which Often means I will be subjected to a beating and a pepper spray at the nearest weighbridge...well not really just jks there.

What I am saying is that rather than criticise try doing the job yourself then see what you think...

piss poor wage
little support from superiors
Public judgement
Abuse

And the list goes on.
But at least we still have the right to Freedom Of speech .

Have to agree here. I wouldn't care if they paid the cops $127000/yr round about the same as a bloody useless Polly in Wellington. But I would expect value for money and a culling of the bad apples. It would most likely attract a more intelligent type of officer instead of the X-All Black inspired rugby drop outs we have now. We already have some bloody good cops now that are in danger of leaving due to the rot that the idiots have spread. Pay them the money, and expect the results to follow

[Toaster]

.

Agreed. Been there done that myself - and yes, outputs are a part of almost any employment role.... police are no different and are expected to pull their weight and produce results in arrests/road policing enforcement etc. There is nothing wrong with that and gives taxpayers some return on the investment made.

The road policing strategies in place are about reducing road deaths and crashes. I am sure we would all be happier if the risks of us getting wiped out while out riding by some other tosser were lower because of the contribution made by policing to safer travel on NZ roads.

Keep up the good work locking up them PRNs dude.

[SwanTiger]

A few more cops on the road like you and SD and there would not be the need for Tasors. We'd kill our selves with laughing.

Skyryder
I kind of think the Tazor is quite a nifty Police 'resource'.

Here is an example of two instances:

Irrate ex-husband comes onto womans property with an axe threating to arm her and daughter. He won't leave and is in a wound up state. How do you pepper spray or communicate sense to such a person, or to go one further, what if he is on drugs and is beyond reasoning?

A drug fuelled loony decided to break into a KFC (Dyna you mighta heard about this one) and mess with all the food. He smeared his own fecies (yes, shit, stools, excrement, crap... warm stinky crap) all over the frozen chicken and other food items in the food storage areas. He then smeared shit all over himself and was irrate. Pepper spray didn't work. What do you do?

BTW - the KFC was promptly shut down, for good. Let's hope KFC don't bring out a 'special peanut butter sauce' in the future.

In both instances an Officer or Officer(s) have to increase their risk of serious injury or death to conclude the situation. With a Tazor it is different, it is a bit like a gun however you have recourse (i.e. the suspect doesn't die, but is equally incapacitated).

Anyway, that doesn't address the issue of misuse. Human error will always prevail, no matter what stops are in place.

[padre]

Who would these community groups be and how would the Police choose which community groups to approach for assistance with their road safety initiative?

.

Gidday. Here's how it goes. Community Groups = council road safety co-ordinators and very uninformed interested parties in the community eg the rest home walking group, so long as they are happy to muse endlessly about seatbelts, drunks, intersections and of course the S word.

For a list of eligible Community Groups go see who 2 major road safety funding bodies have favored as shown by their grant records. Both bodies have M.O.T. or LTNZ reps on the board. The Trusts are
1. the Road Safety Trust which gives millions to the AA and back to itself (the LTNZ) and pennies to knitting groups and for road safety mats at primary schools @ $20.
2. The JR McKenzie Trust
If you or Bronz can brownnose enough to get a grant from either of these bodies you are in with a grin. But first recite the following. Can you say "speed kills" 100x, followed by "seatbelts do save people in 100 k head-ons - truly they do" and then learn to say "speed kills" while standing on your head. If your sleep talk consists of "speed kills so bad" you'll make the grade. You may get a 50$ grant - not a mill like the AA... cos they deserve it they so sold out.


Incidentally I agree with Skyrider - it is revenue raising - 100%. There may be dd road safety benefits to speed contol tho its verey debatable. I say this based upon having viewed Treasury papers. Which set a requirement for fines revenue to produce a draw even on the Road Safety Program National Adverts.

Also based on an Economists report held by Treasury that outlines the ticket numbers needed to employ x number of cops at x amount of dollars plus to pay for their vehicles and gas costs and other incidentals. Saidd report looks at how well several different Countries are balancing their books or road safety accounts with fines - not just speeding ones but the whole shebang.

Lastly I want to highlight that a passage in that volume for which the thread was started states that a KPI (key perf. indicator) is that cops will be issuing at least 25% of their tickets for offenses that are negligent or dangerous enough to result in trauma.

Would any of the boys in blue here accounted for care to explain. Are you currently issuing over 75% of tickets for non safety related traffic offences? Be most interesting to hear what those offences are - speeding perhaps?

One is referred to a table I could not find that lists trauma related offences - is speed on it? And more t the point what are these other (non safety related) offences attracting the lions share of tickets.

Are the bulk of tickets issued for safety reasons then? Seems not. And if not why not. Area Commanders have some explaining to do. And you will find an article coming out January in a prestigious magazine will be turning some a shade of beetroot - many of their Press utterances of recent days will be a source of deep embarrassmet come the big expose. :shit: Down trou :Punk:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hmm


Now , it seems to me that these crash books should be in the public domain. The public after all, have a right to know what roads are safe and wat are not, and the information is funded at taxpayer expense. and such information could hardly be argued to be confidential

And if the police are indeed following these RTPPs , then the conclusion is obvious. And no, I'm not going to spell it out.

The Official Information Act is your friend. After the Pleece turn you down, you will need to apply to the Ombudsman. As you say, the way we pay these people to police our roads must be subject to our scrutiny.

[SwanTiger]

If you or Bronz can brownnose enough to get a grant from either of these bodies you are in with a grin. But first recite the following. Can you say "speed kills" 100x, followed by "seatbelts do save people in 100 k head-ons - truly they do" and then learn to say "speed kills" while standing on your head. If your sleep talk consists of "speed kills so bad" you'll make the grade. You may get a 50$ grant - not a mill like the AA... cos they deserve it they so sold out.
I believe that, where there is a will there is a way.

[RT527]

Are you a volunteer?

FireFighter ?...yes.

[mstriumph]

*sigh* ................

[Lou Girardin]

If you go Fishing Lou , Do you Catch All Of The Fish In The Sea?????.



No, but I'd fish in different possies from time to time. You might not get a bin of schoolies, but you could get a couple of big Kings.

[doc]

Whats up doc...you seemed to have pulled your gruds out the back of your pants:shit:

Im a general duties cop you idiot for a start, if you think what I do isnt a real job, hell come and try it and then tell me what you think...there is no radar or laser detection instruments in my car. When did i say it "makes my day???? Im not talking about "quotas" im talking about how the Police gathers information and puts it on a national grid. They do that for all parts of the Police including all the stuff outside the traffic side. I dont think its a bad thing to monitor whats going on. You have missed my point completley or you are on some blanket anti cop binge. I aint got any time for that single minded bullshit.

I do know that a lot of bikers could take a corner on an open road at speed and pull it off safely where as a junior biker or average car driver couldnt and struggles to at the current speed limit. The liberals would never allow motorcycists to have a higher speed toleration on the open road based on their experience though; apart from sub 100 like the 70km hr restriction on learner riders.

While i dont know what you do it is a bit rich commenting on whats a real job from the safety of your arm chair.

I speed, you speed, everybody speeds at times....im commenting on government policy and how the police gathers information, not how the road is being policed.

Call me a fucking wanker and a tosser? Your a fuckwit, well actually just a fuck cause you havent got any wits .:angry:

Quite proud of ourselves aren't we. Run along and gather more intelligence, that will fix the problem.

[Grahameeboy]

Quite proud of ourselves aren't we. Run along and gather more intelligence, that will fix the problem.

What's up Doc......

[doc]

What's up Doc...... Run out of lions to feed christians too.

[Grahameeboy]

Run out of lions to feed christians too.

Don't eat red meat...sorry....peace be with you...........:sunny:

[denill]

Of course they can - it's just in the road policing side of things ACC want to see proof that their money is being used for what it was intended for.

Name me on job where there is not some form of checks and balances??


Well knock me over with a feather :killingme :killingme
It wasn't too long ago that we were assured by :Police: (the ones we should be able to trust) that there was no such thing as a Quota System :shake: :shake:

But we ALL knew that was bullshit too!

[scumdog]

Gidday.
Would any of the boys in blue here accounted for care to explain. Are you currently issuing over 75% of tickets for non safety related traffic offences? Be most interesting to hear what those offences are - speeding perhaps?

One is referred to a table I could not find that lists trauma related offences - is speed on it? And more t the point what are these other (non safety related) offences attracting the lions share of tickets.

Are the bulk of tickets issued for safety reasons then? Seems not. And if not why not. Area Commanders have some explaining to do. And you will find an article coming out January in a prestigious magazine will be turning some a shade of beetroot - many of their Press utterances of recent days will be a source of deep embarrassmet come the big expose. :shit: Down trou :Punk:

Can't speak for others but a fair number of my tickets are 'compliance' ones for cracked windscreen, non-functional or missing inside door latch handle, non-functional headlight/raer-light/indicator, tyre below the minimum tread and the list goes on.
All are counted as tickets, none create income for the Government.

What percentage are they?
Dunno and don't give a shit.

BTW Do you count giving a Learner driver a ticket for breach of his learners conditions a 'safety' ticket? - I do.

Wanna speed past me?
You may or may not get a ticket.
If you do? - bad luck , get on KB and whinge.
I don't give a shit, whinge if it makes you happy.

Don't like the speed tickets?
Do 'something' about it - or else grin and bear it or piss off.

And is this Prestigious magazine 'Driver' or similar by any chance?

Have a nice day.

[Grahameeboy]

Can't speak for others but a fair number of my tickets are 'compliance' ones for cracked windscreen, non-functional or missing inside door latch handle, non-functional headlight/raer-light/indicator, tyre below the minimum tread and the list goes on.
All are counted as tickets, none create income for the Government.

What percentage are they?
Dunno and don't give a shit.

BTW Do you count giving a Learner driver a ticket for breach of his learners conditions a 'safety' ticket? - I do.

Wanna speed past me?
You may or may not get a ticket.
If you do? - bad luck , get on KB and whinge.
I don't give a shit, whinge if it makes you happy.

Don't like the speed tickets?
Do 'something' about it - or else grin and bear it or piss off.

And is this Prestigious magazine 'Driver' or similar by any chance?

Have a nice day.

Respect to that post Scumdog..........the Police will never win I guess but the whinging will continue eh.............I prefer to ride.......:Punk:

[scumdog]

Well knock me over with a feather :killingme :killingme
It wasn't too long ago that we were assured by :Police: (the ones we should be able to trust) that there was no such thing as a Quota System :shake: :shake:

But we ALL knew that was bullshit too!

QUOTAS?
Of course there is a quota.

But not for me, I issue as many tickets as I feel necessary.

And anyway WHO CARES IF THERE IS A QUOTA ??????

[TLDV8]

Count me in for another 20 demerits and $120

The scene of the crime,you got it...... Meremere ..wide,two lane.. divided,single direction..by myself in the left lane cruising along at 120 kmh (4000 rpm) apparently.He seemed very concerned i did not know the exact speed i was doing :laugh:

You get that.

[scumdog]

Count me in for another 20 demerits and $120

The scene of the crime,you got it...... Meremere ..wide,two lane.. divided,single direction..by myself in the left lane cruising along at 120 kmh (4000 rpm) apparently.He seemed very concerned i did not know the exact speed i was doing :laugh:

You get that.

Ah well, good entertainment don't come cheap, glad you enjoyed your ride eh!

[Grahameeboy]

Count me in for another 20 demerits and $120

The scene of the crime,you got it...... Meremere ..wide,two lane.. divided,single direction..by myself in the left lane cruising along at 120 kmh (4000 rpm) apparently.He seemed very concerned i did not know the exact speed i was doing :laugh:

You get that.

My sympathy.........hard not to view this as petty given the road eh but that is the way it is.

[TLDV8]

My sympathy.........hard not to view this as petty given the road eh but that is the way it is.

Exactly..The law is the law...... A little ironic given i was returning from another 250 ride where the average speed was the limit or less :laugh:

I suppose i could get a radar detector but it would be a first and something i have been putting off.
With 40 demerit points now (last ticket one a year go,115 kmh along the Bombay straight in light traffic/left lane) and a planned South Island trip shortly i see no choice given it is that or to be continuously not looking where i am going given the speedometer is out of plain view.
The chances of sticking to 100 kmh over that mileage is near impossible without it turning into a PITA.
It has to be said i rarely go over 140 kmh on the bike these days but atleast yesterday got one maniac off the road for 15 minutes :rofl:

[Clockwork]

QUOTAS?
Of course there is a quota.

But not for me, I issue as many tickets as I feel necessary.

And anyway WHO CARES IF THERE IS A QUOTA ??????


I care, if there wern't any quotas then people on the recieving end of an infringment notice might have to accept the fact that the issuing officer had a genuine concern for public saftey rather than dismissing it as simply revenue gathering.

[denill]

QUOTAS?
Of course there is a quota.
But not for me, I issue as many tickets as I feel necessary.
And anyway WHO CARES IF THERE IS A QUOTA ??????

Maybe you never said there was a Quota System in operation (or did you?) but it is about credibility. Cos I would swear that the official line was "'There is no such thing as Quotas". (Or did I get it wrong?)

So when the Cop pulls you up for exceeding 110 ks on a straight stretch of deserted road and says "It is for your own good sir/madam", that of course is Bullshit too.
But EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT, except Cops wont admit it - yet.

[RT527]

No, but I'd fish in different possies from time to time. You might not get a bin of schoolies, but you could get a couple of big Kings.

Nice Reply and well said!!

[scumdog]

So when the Cop pulls you up for exceeding 110 ks on a straight stretch of deserted road and says "It is for your own good sir/madam", that of course is Bullshit too.
But EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT, except Cops wont admit it - yet.

Never ever said that - never will.
Never given a ticket for 110ks have for 93 - but that was in a 50 area.

I 'Give' out tickets when I feel they are desrved, just do it as part of my job, no moral qualms about it at all.
(sort of like the Warehouse sells an item for $45 when they bought it in China for $8:60 kinda morals)

STILL only had one speed ticket in my life - I guess ya just don't know where to speed???

[Lou Girardin]

I care, if there wern't any quotas then people on the recieving end of an infringment notice might have to accept the fact that the issuing officer had a genuine concern for public saftey rather than dismissing it as simply revenue gathering.

Anyone with a reasonable level of driving experience knows that tickets for 11 k's over the limit has nothing to do with road safety. Yet 75% of all speed tickets are for 11 to 15 over.
Even the cops and LTNZ constantly refer to "excessive speed for the conditions" and expect the great unwashed to believe that they mean exceeding speed limits.

[denill]

Never ever said that - never will.
Never given a ticket for 110ks have for 93 - but that was in a 50 area.
I 'Give' out tickets when I feel they are desrved, just do it as part of my job, no moral qualms about it at all.
(sort of like the Warehouse sells an item for $45 when they bought it in China for $8:60 kinda morals)
STILL only had one speed ticket in my life - I guess ya just don't know where to speed???


In that case that makes you a 'good' cop.

But don't even attempt to try to convince that your attitude is endemic in the brainless self-serving HWP:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Clivoris]

I guess ya just don't know where to speed???

Go on. Give us a clue. Now that would be a thread of inestimable value this font of brotherly and sisterly love that is KiwiBiker. Anyone else hear banjos?

[denill]

Do you think the tolerance should be rasied on the open road to 20k? or that some areas should have an increase in the limit?

Of course not and that is just an attempt to defend the indefensible.

The nub of the dilemma is - the overly zealous and pedantic policing of arbitrary but not always realistic speed limits in zones where even the half witted drivers on our roads (and there are a few) can travel at higher than the designated speed with complete safety (and Cops know it!)
Eg: The policy of targeting passing lanes is just one example. As long as this regime exists the lack of respect for Cops will continue to increase.

[scumdog]

It's the LAW people, written in by your favourite Government (insert brand choice here)
It's the same laws that prevent me owning an MP5, that make me wear a helmet, that stop me making 'P', that say my swimming pool, - nay fish-pond- has to be fenced, that says at 400 breath level I'm safe but at 401 I'm not.

But apparently when the law says you can drive at a maximum of 100kph and you may get away with 110 that a ticket for 111 is a crime against humanity?

Like it or lump it.
I do.:yes:

[Squeak the Rat]

It's the LAW people, written in by your favourite Government (insert brand choice here)
.....snip.....
Like it or lump it.
I do.:yes:

And it's illegal to smack your kids, but the government says the cops won't enforce that for minor cases. Let's see......

[Ixion]

Consideration of complaints about speeding tickets will show that in many cases the complaint actually indicates an opinion that the speed limit is indeed too low.

If the speed limit was 200kph, how many people would think a cop was out of line handing out a ticket at 201kph?

Which is why there is general acceptance of the "drop dead" limit of 400 thingjigles for breath testing. 401, and you are in the shit. It is accepted because those who have considered the matter have concluded the figure is reasonable. You have to be fairly tiddly to get to 400. And if someone blows less than 400 but still seems tiddly the cops will usually take his keys for the evening.

But, people considering the matter of the 100kph speed limit conclude that it is not universally reasonable. and complain about getting a ticket for something they (probably correctly) do not consider unsafe.

The solution, I submit, is either a much wider range of speed limits (varying by time of day, weather etc): or, a "double" speed limit - a high upper absolute limit, and a lower , discretionary, limit, where a cop can give you a ticket for the (new) offence of "inappropriate speed", but you can contest it on the basis the speed was not inappropriate under the circumstances. And, yeah, that is a sneaky back door way of bring back the forbidden 'D' word, and getting back to where we used to be.

[denill]

And it's illegal to smack your kids, but the government says the cops won't enforce that for minor cases. Let's see......
And to ride a cycle with out a helmet? And to indicate incorrectly at a Roundabout?


The point is some laws are Policed and some aren't. Is that because some laws are fucking stupid?

[scumdog]

But it's the law!!!!

[Squeak the Rat]

law schmaw

[Grahameeboy]

Of course not and that is just an attempt to defend the indefensible.

The nub of the dilemma is - the overly zealous and pedantic policing of arbitrary but not always realistic speed limits in zones where even the half witted drivers on our roads (and there are a few) can travel at higher than the designated speed with complete safety (and Cops know it!)
Eg: The policy of targeting passing lanes is just one example. As long as this regime exists the lack of respect for Cops will continue to increase.

Shame you see it that way.

Scumdog is happy to be more pragmatic, some are not. Does not mean that those who are not like Scumdog should be criticised. I am sure we have all at times had to make a decision, follow the rules set down by employer i.e. do the right way or stretch the rules i.e. do the right thing. Not all employee's are happy to stretch rules so why should the Police be treated differently?

As Bikers we have the same decisions. To exceed or not to exceed the speed limit. It is our choice so if we get caught then have to accept responsibility.

Lou, 100k is the Law so travelling at 11-15 k over this is breaking it. Yes, the Law may be an arse at times. I think Motorways should have a higher speed limit than Highway's and in the UK the Police tolerate 90mph without too many issues.

All the time we complain about speed limits and blame the Police, we will not get the respect from Police and it is human nature to treat those the way they treat you.

I mean where do you draw the line with speed. A lot of us travel in excess of 120k so even if they increased the limit in some areas some of us would still be breaking the Law so complaining is really nonsensible is'nt it??

[scumdog]

law schmaw

And it's an ass too!


But it's the law.

[Grahameeboy]

But it's the law!!!!

Now you know that is too simple for some to understand..........

[denill]

But it's the law!!!!

I'll say it again.

The point is some laws are Policed and some aren't. Is that because some laws are fucking stupid?

[Grahameeboy]

The solution, I submit, is either a much wider range of speed limits (varying by time of day, weather etc): or, a "double" speed limit - a high upper absolute limit, and a lower , discretionary, limit, where a cop can give you a ticket for the (new) offence of "inappropriate speed", but you can contest it on the basis the speed was not inappropriate under the circumstances. And, yeah, that is a sneaky back door way of bring back the forbidden 'D' word, and getting back to where we used to be.

That sounds like a good idea Ixion. In the UK they have roads where the speed is variable according to time of day...........may produce a few more cops like Scumdog (heaven help us!!)

[Grahameeboy]

I'll say it again.

The point is some laws are Policed and some aren't. Is that because some laws are fucking stupid?

No, the Law is still open to interpretation which is why we have Courts. If the Law was an absolute then we would not need Courts.

[Ixion]

,,
Scumdog is happy to be more pragmatic, some are not. Does not mean that those who are not like Scumdog should be criticised. ,,

Yes. Yes they should. laws were made by man to be a benefit for him, not a rod with which to break him.

If a copper does not have the judgement to know when the law should be enforced , and when a blind eye should be turned; and the balls to back up his call; then he should not be a copper.

(Mr Scumdog's weird mustachios are another matter entirely. )

[denill]

No, the Law is still open to interpretation which is why we have Courts. If the Law was an absolute then we would not need Courts.

Sorry, I wrote: "The point is some laws are Policed and some aren't. Is that because some laws are fucking stupid?"

I should have written: Some laws are fucking stupid.

[Grahameeboy]

Yes. Yes they should. laws were made by man to be a benefit for him, not a rod with which to break him.

If a copper does not have the judgement to know when the law should be enforced , and when a blind eye should be turned; and the balls to back up his call; then he should not be a copper.

(Mr Scumdog's weird mustachios are another matter entirely. )

A cop knows the Law and you cannot criticise him / her (being PC) for following the Law. That is why they spend money to send them to Police Training.

A cop who follows the letter of the Law is doing the job he is told to do. Now I am not saying that I disagree with your sentiment, however, we cannot criticise a Cop for doing something you do not like or agree with.

[Grahameeboy]

Sorry, I wrote: "The point is some laws are Policed and some aren't. Is that because some laws are fucking stupid?"

I should have written: Some laws are fucking stupid.

Okay.......................................so I guess it is a hard road for the Police when they have to enforce Laws that they don't agree with......but that is just like employee's in other jobs.

How many threads have been started about late ambulances, long waits in A&E......?? None I suspect cause it is easier to attack the Police than it is paramedics and nurses but I bet you they have the comparable dilemma's??

[Squeak the Rat]

A cop who follows the letter of the Law is doing the job he is told to do. Now I am not saying that I disagree with your sentiment, however, we cannot criticise a Cop for doing something you do not like or agree with.

That's just asking for a comparison with the Nazi's working at Auchwitz.......

[Grahameeboy]

That's just asking for a comparison with the Nazi's working at Auchwitz.......

Mmmm...no slightly different cause a lot of the Nazi's feared for their own lives if they didn't follow instructions plus it was a not about 'Law'.......please keep on subject you dirty rat......

[Squeak the Rat]

Mmmm...no slightly different cause a lot of the Nazi's feared for their own lives if they didn't follow instructions plus it was a not about 'Law'.......please keep on subject you dirty rat......

A lot of the cops fear for their jobs if they don't follow instructions, which these days is a pretty big fear for most people.

And what is the subject anyway, I thought it was a new years cop bashing thread :innocent:

[Grahameeboy]

A lot of the cops fear for their jobs if they don't follow instructions, which these days is a pretty big fear for most people.

And what is the subject anyway, I thought it was a new years cop bashing thread :innocent:

So proves my earlier point. Cops are just like the rest of us.....Job = Money = Lifetsyle (well trying to have one).

You innocent....pfttttt.......guess the season's spirit did not last long eh.......

[Grahameeboy]

[QUOTE=denill;882991]Of course not and that is just an attempt to defend the indefensible. [QUOTE]Huh? how what the fuck are you on about. What am i defending? I was asking a question :spanking:

No you know asking a question is gonna be in the hard basket Dyna........

[Toaster]

So proves my earlier point. Cops are just like the rest of us.....Job = Money = Lifetsyle (well trying to have one).

You innocent....pfttttt.......guess the season's spirit did not last long eh.......

I left the job to get a lifestyle back.... (and a better salary with less hours)what does that tell ya?!

[denill]

[QUOTE=denill;882991]Of course not and that is just an attempt to defend the indefensible. [QUOTE]Huh? how what the fuck are you on about. What am i defending? I was asking a question :spanking:

You wrote: "Do you think the tolerance should be rasied on the open road to 20k? or that some areas should have an increase in the limit?"

So you were not attempting to justify pedantic (and profitable) policing???

The way I read it - you were.

[Grahameeboy]

OI! Ambulances are only "late" cause the dispatcher has the vehicles in the wrong place at the wrong time (I mean we all know where the next emergency will be). But also cause no bastard gets out of the way anymore for lights and sirens.. why is this so? I remember as a kid that everybody pulled over and stopped for ambo's etc, but now..No. The guy in front wants to take advantage of the cars ahead pulling over, so he can get ahead some more.
Or the person who does actually see us in his mirror (surprise surprise, they used a mirror!) but will wait untill we are on top of him before moving... so in the mean time I have backed right off anticipating them to be Asian and will no doubt stop in the middle of the lane or worse, pull to the right.
But G boy, you live on Devo which is hard to get to quickly at the best of times, let alone when Lake road is busy at peak time.

I was not complaining about you guys but was just using this as a point in my argument......

Asian drivers still better than Kiwi drivers........Kiwi drivers cannot drive in their own bloody backyard.....at least Asian drivers have an excuse.......well except JSG......did I just say that?? Just kidding JSG.....

Traffic, Lake Road...sorry does not compute...............you could always stop at Birkenhead and get Ferry to Devonport via Town and it is free (cause you only have to show ticket at Town gates and you would stay in terminal) so you would save tax payers money......mmm but maybe not lifes......:dodge:

[Grahameeboy]

I left the job to get a lifestyle back.... (and a better salary with less hours)what does that tell ya?!

I was being generic.............tells me you did not have balance in life which I understand.

[TLDV8]

A lot of the cops fear for their jobs if they don't follow instructions, which these days is a pretty big fear for most people.

And what is the subject anyway, I thought it was a new years cop bashing thread :innocent:

I think it has to be mentioned.
One major difference these days compared to yester year is you do not know who are Police and who are MOT.
It was a lot easier in the days of Black and Whites (MoT/Snakes) and Greys (Police)
Where do you think all the MoT went when the forces were combined ?
Do you think a lot of MoT did not want to be Police on general duties? given that is not why they joined originally.
Ask any long term Police officer what they think of MoT members :laugh:
You may be surprised how many MoT are at the top of the chain not to mention district old boys clubs.It is way over due for heads to roll and only the public can get that done.With the general apathy that will never happen.

It may be a little different for me given my family has a total of 43 years service......What that means is when i got pinged as above and got the ticket,i then looked at the officer ID number and thought I number,around 8 years service and on Traffic.
The smart arse smerk when he got out of the car was no surprise.

It must really suck to be a Police officer getting tarred with the same (public) brush.

There is no comparison between front line Police and some Maggot HP..imho

[Grahameeboy]

I was just wondering but isn't this thread a re-post...............:dodge: :innocent:

[denill]

There is no comparison between front line Police and some Maggot HP..imho

Gotta be with you there TLDV8!
Although that probably excludes SD from the Maggots.

[Ixion]

A cop knows the Law and you cannot criticise him / her (being PC) for following the Law. That is why they spend money to send them to Police Training.

A cop who follows the letter of the Law is doing the job he is told to do. Now I am not saying that I disagree with your sentiment, however, we cannot criticise a Cop for doing something you do not like or agree with.

Yes I can. And no he isn't. A police officer is required as part of his job to exhibit good judgement. This is what distinguishes him (I ain't PC) from a parking warden. And if someone is telling cops to mindlessly follow the letter of the law, then Parliament needs to get involved.

[Ixion]

How many threads have been started about late ambulances, long waits in A&E......?

Maybe because ambos ain't often late? When a car smashed into the power pole outside I called police (cos he woz drunk and belligerant), ambo (cos people were hurt) and fire (cos the power lines were down and petrol was pissing out).

And timed their response (all called out at the same time). I heard the ambo siren at 1 min 30 sec. He was on site and deployed in less than 4 minutes. Fire, I heard the siren at 3 and a bit minutes , deployed in 7. Police turned up (no sirens) after about 40 minutes when everybody (including the driver!) had gone. Note that police and ambo stations are right next door to each other. Fire is about the same, maybe a fraction closer.

And your example of A&E actually breaks your case. The reason that there may be long waits is precisely because the A&E staff are doing what we expect to police to do - using their judgement. They take seriously ill/injured people ahead of minor injuries. There would be a major scandal if it were found that A&E were "following the letter of the law" by rigidly and mindlessly enforcing a "first come first seen" policy ,m so that someone died waiting, while a sprained finger was being seen to ahead of the critically injured person. That is what the public expect the police to do also: use judgement - "this is bad - that is not". Most cops do so - as we see from their responses here. Some do not. That pisses people off.

[denill]

[QUOTE=denill;883096][QUOTE=Dynamytus50;883088]

Get your eyes checked, is english your first language? Im asking a question of Lou Giradin which you have decided to state that i am defending something?? :argue:

Yep, English is and if it's yours brush it up, instead of diatribes, - just answer my question:
"So you were not attempting to justify pedantic (and profitable) policing???" :argue::argue:

[Grahameeboy]

Maybe because ambos ain't often late? When a car smashed into the power pole outside I called police (cos he woz drunk and belligerant), ambo (cos people were hurt) and fire (cos the power lines were down and petrol was pissing out).

And timed their response (all called out at the same time). I heard the ambo siren at 1 min 30 sec. He was on site and deployed in less than 4 minutes. Fire, I heard the siren at 3 and a bit minutes , deployed in 7. Police turned up (no sirens) after about 40 minutes when everybody (including the driver!) had gone. Note that police and ambo stations are right next door to each other. Fire is about the same, maybe a fraction closer.

And your example of A&E actually breaks your case. The reason that there may be long waits is precisely because the A&E staff are doing what we expect to police to do - using their judgement. They take seriously ill/injured people ahead of minor injuries. There would be a major scandal if it were found that A&E were "following the letter of the law" by rigidly and mindlessly enforcing a "first come first seen" policy ,m so that someone died waiting, while a sprained finger was being seen to ahead of the critically injured person. That is what the public expect the police to do also: use judgement - "this is bad - that is not". Most cops do so - as we see from their responses here. Some do not. That pisses people off.

I recall a few years ago a media article about late ambulances and people do complain about waiting times at A&E.............that was all I was saying reference to 'complaints'. I was not saying that the A&E guys do not use judgement although I suspect that 'prioritising' is part of their policy / rules whatever given the nature of what they do so assume by the same token the Police follow their policy / rules but this is not okay

So if most cops use judgement and are okay then why are you moaning about cops..........life is not perfect and there is good and bad everywhere and in any event all you are moaning about is traffic offences which affects you.

That example of yours sounds bad but on the other hand I guess, based on what your say, that the priority was the injured driver and the damaged power line so guess the right people were there on time and not sure what use the Police would have been whilst all this was going on.............40 mins does seem slow but maybe they were having a busy night and as I said the important guys were on the scene......like people complain about waits following a burglary....what can the Police do after event.

I was in A&E with a buggered (tore tendon right off knee cap) and they forgot about me.....I didn't complain though as it was change over, however, just shows that things are not perfect.

We generally only hear about negative stuff which tends to exagerate things.

A perfect Police Force is dreaming. I am sure a lot of young guys join up with all good intent and perhaps realise that their hands are tied at times and that they are caught between a rock and a hard place............

[scumdog]

And timed their response (all called out at the same time). I heard the ambo siren at 1 min 30 sec. He was on site and deployed in less than 4 minutes. Fire, I heard the siren at 3 and a bit minutes , deployed in 7. Police turned up (no sirens) after about 40 minutes when everybody (including the driver!) had gone. Note that police and ambo stations are right next door to each other. Fire is about the same, maybe a fraction closer.

Athe police to do also: use judgement - "this is bad - that is not". Most cops do so - as we see from their responses here. Some do not. That pisses people off.

Not rising to a troll BUT:
Often we are the last to know (like the cuckolded husband you say?), a hell of a lot of the time it's "Report of two-car crash, persons injured, Ambo and Fire in attendance" (You scanner leeches will know that)

In a small town we often get the 'jump' on a crash by hearing the Ambo or Fire sirens and asking Comms to do a check in case it's a crash.

And often shitheads are happy to see an Ambo when they sail through a fence and roll while pissed but for obvious reasons the last thing they want to see is a cop.

[TLDV8]

dispatcher

The other night it may have been lucky i was there..... Picture someone who has a known terminal problem and will probably be gone this year... they collapse are incoherent,lips going blue and gasping for air.
I can hear the person talking to the dispatcher as i make sure the airway is clear etc..... They are talking in a clear and controlled fashion..Do you know what the person was told by the dispatcher ? to SHUT UP ?..... The ambulance took some 15 minutes plus to come what might be 2 kms at a leisurely pace.
They took said person to Middlemore where they are now concerned about heart condition.
I am in no doubt if we had not been there my Mum would be dead now.

Ohh yeah ... !@#$ dispatchers.

[Ixion]

I get called to vehicle collisions all the time. "*** please go to a 1v at the intersection of **** and **** two car 1v minor injury. Its been in the system for half a hour"

Its the amount of time that it takes a general duties car to come free to take the job, not police being lazy or turning up when they decide to.

Not suggesting you (generic you) were, just responding to the original comment that people don't complain about ambulances arriving late.In the example posited , I would accept that it was probably fairly urgent from the POV of ambo and fire (passenger dude rather munted and petrol and live wires all over); and not so important from the POV of the cops (already all over, really) . Just pointing out that ambos get there real fast (providing, as noted, that bloody idot wankers will get out their way like they are supposed to)

[denill]

[QUOTE=denill;883194][QUOTE=Dynamytus50;883149]

No dork i was asking a question! :weird:

I am close to giving up trying to get a STRAIGHT answer from you!
When I asked: "So you were not attempting to justify pedantic (and profitable) policing???"
I wanted to know which side of the fence you are really on???
So try this question (and try and resist resorting to personal attack - a sign of weakness): "Are you in favour of the current HWP policing regime??" It's a Yes/No question.

I don't really expect a straight answer though. If you are Gay, I bet you are still in the closet!

[candor]

AKA Mothers Against Scimsuckin Speeders. No lobby group I can see for this issue. Unless you count the guy moping on a curve over his mother on the box - but I strongly suspect he is a fictional creation a la Annette and Harry.

Incidentally the toll is not under 400 - all that crowing was over unofficial estimates as when toll is properly collatedby ACC it will certainly exceed 400.

A snapshot of the real picture (which people on this site have had ytragic reminders of lately) from statistics NZ.

Social cost of road crashes 2004 - 3.3 hundred mill (ie 3.3 bill)
Social cost of road crashes 2005 - 3.3 hundred mill " "

Injury crash social cost up from 2,003 mill in 2004 to 2,066 mill in 2005
So injury crashes are costing us 63 million more

Its a bloody road safety miracle aint it! No. Well maybe an economic one then - Tui!

Select Quotes from Police News Journal

"We (Police Assn) will continue to work to ensure the Public understand that it is continued failure of Govt to utilise strategies other than enforcement which drives the current model of Policing"

"Govt has underinvested in the 2 other areas which also impact greatly on road deaths - education and more importantly road engineering - as 2 horrific head-ons in August showed"

"Instead the Government has decided to rely on enforcement to achieve it's goals - that decision has 2 impacts on policing..." (bad Public Relations & Police diverted from dealing with other crime due to preventable carnage call outs).

"Perhaps it will take for the Health Department and ACC to fund the Police and demand some accountability as LTNZ does to get action in this area"

"In the meantime the Police Association will continue to place pressure on Politicians to use all the tools available to make roads safer"

OMG - the voice of reason, can some-one Taser Duyny pls. But why do top cops then keep pushing the boring speed and seatbelts message at every opportunity - do they not belong to the Police association?

"

[denill]

The cops dont do anything at a crash anyway


Yes they do. They're there to nail someone/anyone. Some more revenue/income/tax to be dispersed amongst the Vultures.

[TLDV8]

They were talking to a call taker, not a dispatcher. If you have a problem then phone St John and complain mate, dont bitch on here with claims no one can defend. All calls are recorded, I highly doubt you were told to Shut Up.

Question... Why did you call an emergency ambulance to someone who is terminally ill? You say they will probably be "gone" this year. Why prolong the process? What is the persons wishes? Do you know? Do they want aggressive medical intervention in cases such as you witnessed?
95% of cases where we go to terminally ill patients (for whatever reason) they have a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate order). We respect that, make them comfortable... bit of morphine perhaps... and consult with the family as to what they wish.. i.e go to Hospice or Hospital, or stay at home and peacefully pass away.

Not having a go,.. its a genuine enquiry.

When people complain that they have been waiting "half an hour"!!! for us to "turn up", I tell em sorry was just at a cot death, that shuts them up.



Where does does it say bed ridden..house bound ..terminally "ill" or dying ?

Can people see how the system might jump to conclusions based on assumption if that reply is anything to go.
Can you see how a person in that profession wrote someone off based on their own perspective of what they read and was so far off in diagnosis that they might pop around later with some morphine for the old dear.
Think what if you got that person when you rang for help.


Sadly i rest my case.

No offence to Speedie but you elected to represent it seems.
Not to mention at no part did i bag the paramedic's or ambulance service itself ?
My point was what can happen when communicating by telephone.

My Mum should be out of hospital some time on the weekend.

Speedie unfortunately must now go to that little place called ..one strike and you are out :laugh:

[NUTBAR]

I dont personally do traffic but i have done a four month secondment there. We were expected to meet a rough number of tickets. I dont know what your winging about skyryder, if an officer is assigned to road policing duties then there has to be a way of tracking if he is actually going out and issuing Ions Tons and 1V reports....otherwise he could get away with doing nothing.

I am monitored on how many arrests i make and what problem geographical areas i have been targeting....i think its also needed to check what traffic cops are issuing out and then compare to what that is nationally.

You can never have too much information.

Iv been misslead :doh: i thought it was all about road safety!
not money making for the government?:tugger:

[doc]

if an officer is assigned to road policing duties then there has to be a way of tracking if he is actually going out and issuing Ions Tons and 1V reports....otherwise he could get away with doing nothing.

I am monitored on how many arrests i make and what problem geographical areas i have been targeting....i think its also needed to check what traffic cops are issuing out and then compare to what that is nationally.

You can never have too much information.

Hi, Guy's sorry my turn again (just poped out of lurk mode to check on my red reps )

Its a bit sad really when Joe Public is starting to mistrust the police, and their own system doesn't trust them. So they have to annoy us to check that their yes men are actually working (ie if you didn't issue tickets or whatever what would happen the Boss miss his bonus that you never see ) . If I appear faceitious I don't intend to be. Might see Scummy at Woodstock for god sake dont't bring the "Uzi"

[davereid]

If you get a ticket for 111 km/hr, and you were speeding you just lost the bet.

You should just pay the fine.

If you think that tickets for that kind of speed are just daft, then:
DENY you were speeding on the spot
VIEW the radar and record the readings
EXPLAIN you deny the offence and will be going to court over it
REMAIN polite
IF the cop gets rude FILM him on your mobile or better, secretly record his speech (its easy to fail the attitude test and get your cop abusive)

THEN when the ticket arrives:
DEMAND Disclosure .. of the radar and its calibration
copies of manufacturers specs
copies of cops training record
HISTORY of tickets issued that day, in case the cop got the first guy on his shift at 112, and has just been issuiong the same ticket all day
If you have egged the cop up and he abused you on tape, then complain..

Now you have already won.. the police have spent $$$ chasing your ticket, and he's not been on the road either, so its two birds with one stone.

And don't believe its not about $$$... the police have financial targets to meet, and don't like spending time and money chasing $75 tickets.

PLUS the cops might get it wrong - not have valid quals for the radar, not have calibrated it etc etc.

If you are still keen, take it to court.
Even if you lose we all win.
You may have to pay court fees, but the cop is paid to be there. So the system loses more money. And the cop may be unable to make it, or may cock up his evidence.

Tickets for small offences only exist because you choose to pay them. Get bigger balls, be prepared to pay a few $ extra in court fees if you lose, but you can be sure that the system will not cope with dozens of court cases, and will give up.

I read on another thread that there were 40,000 tickets issued in Central Districts alone last year. If even 25% of those said "see you in court" the police would now be under instructions to prosecute only serious cases.

So really stop bleating, and start defending yourself.

[denill]

[QUOTE=denill;883362][QUOTE=Dynamytus50;883305]

No I dont and no sorry im not gay. I'm pleased that you answered the Yes/No question and pleased (and surprised) that you chose "No". But hey, don't be sorry that you're not gay. Some guys aren't.


Its the governments misguided directives, the imbalance of the Police force and the way they deploy us. We need to kick the civillians out of the Police upper management that you dont see and put real Police officers with experience on the street back in charge like it was pre 1995 - 2000.
Hey, I didn't know that you were one of THEM Dynamytus50, but I think I could get to like you, I mean respect you. I have to agree with you totally on your above quoted remarks. (Hope your bosses don't read this though cos I don't think you guys are allowed opinions?)
I could accept being ticketed by a professional, rather than the mealy mouthed maggots that I have encountered, fortunately, not toooo often.

[tl_tub]

... THEN when the ticket arrives:
DEMAND Disclosure .. of the radar and its calibration
copies of manufacturers specs
copies of cops training record...

I wouldnt bother requesting the calibration certs, its just a waste of everyones time, ofcourse its going to be calibrated

[Ixion]

If its HP, almost certainly. But if its a GD car with a radar, maybe not. Bear in mind its the cert that matters, not whether it is in fact correctly calibrated.

[scumdog]

If you get a ticket for 111 km/hr, and you were speeding you just lost the bet.

You should just pay the fine.

If you think that tickets for that kind of speed are just daft, then:
DENY you were speeding on the spot
VIEW the radar and record the readings
EXPLAIN you deny the offence and will be going to court over it
REMAIN polite
IF the cop gets rude FILM him on your mobile or better, secretly record his speech (its easy to fail the attitude test and get your cop abusive)

THEN when the ticket arrives:
DEMAND Disclosure .. of the radar and its calibration
copies of manufacturers specs
copies of cops training record
HISTORY of tickets issued that day, in case the cop got the first guy on his shift at 112, and has just been issuiong the same ticket all day
If you have egged the cop up and he abused you on tape, then complain..

Now you have already won.. the police have spent $$$ chasing your ticket, and he's not been on the road either, so its two birds with one stone.

And don't believe its not about $$$... the police have financial targets to meet, and don't like spending time and money chasing $75 tickets.

PLUS the cops might get it wrong - not have valid quals for the radar, not have calibrated it etc etc.

If you are still keen, take it to court.
Even if you lose we all win.
You may have to pay court fees, but the cop is paid to be there. So the system loses more money. And the cop may be unable to make it, or may cock up his evidence.

Tickets for small offences only exist because you choose to pay them. Get bigger balls, be prepared to pay a few $ extra in court fees if you lose, but you can be sure that the system will not cope with dozens of court cases, and will give up.

I read on another thread that there were 40,000 tickets issued in Central Districts alone last year. If even 25% of those said "see you in court" the police would now be under instructions to prosecute only serious cases.

So really stop bleating, and start defending yourself.

Mwahahaha!
Funniest post on this thread yet, good one, almost sounds for real.

[Lou Girardin]

Do you think the tolerance should be rasied on the open road to 20k? or that some areas should have an increase in the limit?

In my day, (Jeez, I'm old) that was exactly what it was. Very few MOT cops wrote tickets for less than 16 over, normally it was 20 over. We all disregarded the official 8 km/h tolerance for radar tickets.
And yes, if suburban roads can have variable limits, rural roads could as well. Many parts of the South Island and even the North could have a 110 or 120 limit.
But, I'd like to see much tougher driver testing first, both of new drivers AND existing ones.

[davereid]

Mwahahaha!
Funniest post on this thread yet, good one, almost sounds for real.

Yeah your right some of its not for real - I didn't mean the bit about paying the fine if you were speeding, sorry about putting that in there.

Interestingly when cops used discretion and used to let you off the odd ticket I used to admit I'd been speeding and hope for a bit of leniency.

Now I know I'm going to get a ticket anyway, I politely deny the offence. Of my last two tickets (since I started this policy) I've had two letters from the police saying they are not going to continue with the prosecution. I know one was because the cop who issued the ticket left the force a couple of days after the ticket. I don't know why the other one went away.

I also had a pal do the same. He ended up in court, and won. The radar calibration docs were in a shambles, and the cop had never been trained on the radar.

[scumdog]

Yeah your right some of its not for real - I didn't mean the bit about paying the fine if you were speeding, sorry about putting that in there.

Interestingly when cops used discretion and used to let you off the odd ticket I used to admit I'd been speeding and hope for a bit of leniency.

Still let people off with a warning - but I guess people don't get so hot under the collar about THAT!
Or want to report it on KB.

Nearly ten years and not a single defended speeding ticket - why?
Cos I do my job properly.
Sure, had the odd 'roadside-ranter' that jumps up and down and some are " I know all about this - I'll get off" kinda thing - but in their heart they know they're screwed and are just venting.
Even given a couple of lawyers (one high profile) tickets and not a murmer.
Ya must have a different type on the radar up your way.

[Squeak the Rat]

Ya must have a different type on the radar up your way.

Or different performance targets........

[davereid]

Still let people off with a warning - but I guess people don't get so hot under the collar about THAT!
... Nearly ten years and not a single defended speeding ticket - why?
Cos I do my job properly....Ya must have a different type on the radar up your way.

I think thats the point scumdog... I think we all know that there are times when the speed limit is far to low for the conditions. A warning is entirely appropriate in those circumstances, and congrats to you for having the common sense to police that way.

Sadly up here, you just don't get warnings, you just get hammered.

Its common to see a laser equipped cop standing at the end of passing lanes zapping people who have sped up to pass. I can't see how this enhances road safety, all it does is mean only one person gets past the camper van. The other 20 get to pass later when there are no passing lanes.

Its behavior that changes everyones attitude - if the police are going to go to the letter of the law and show no common sense, then the public have to be just as bloody minded !

[tl_tub]

...I also had a pal do the same. He ended up in court, and won. The radar calibration docs were in a shambles, and the cop had never been trained on the radar...

At a guess you would be referring to the log book (daily check), not the actual calibration.

[davereid]

The police never disclosed any test other than the tuning fork test.