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Blahhh
3rd January 2007, 04:22
I agreed and understand how counter-steering works. In fact, the skill has saved me from many nasty potholes.

The problem is with my body's position. When I engage a bend at a high speed, my body will just shift the opposite side of the turn when counter steering. I try forcing my body to lean INTO the bend while counter steering, but it just feels weird.

How do I remedy it?

James Deuce
3rd January 2007, 05:46
1. Look through the bend.

Break the corner into small parts starting with the following big chunks:
a. Road position - position yourself for the best view through the corner.

b. Braking marker - choose where you set your entry speed by either braking or rolling off the throttle.

c. Turn in point - pick a specific place to nudge the bars in which ever direction you are turning. Actively set the amount of maximum lean you will need, as quickly as possible. Set the chassis with a tiny amount of throttle and wind it on through the corner.

d. Pick your apex and nail it every time - this is where you begin to actively stand the bike up.

e. Begin the process all over again on the exit.

Each of those actions can be broken into a myriad of sub-components.

2. Body position.

a. Run through points 1a to 1e one after the other. While you are doing 1a, plan point 1b and so on. This will force you to look through the corner in stages by turning your head. Do not look at the road immediately in front of the bike. Plan every move ahead so you have time to avoid hazards or change your line or whatever avoidance techniques you have to use.

b. Drop the shoulder on the inside of the bend (the shoulder that will be lowest) and point it at the apex (1d).

It's more complex to explain than do. Practice this over and over until it is natural, on the same piece of road.

If it never becomes natural go Motard racing. :)

Looking through the corner is a big deal. It keeps your head level with the horizon it stops your body from trying to fight the falling over feeling as you lean. Keeping your eyes level with the horizon (either visible or imagined) stops your inner ear from telegraphing, "Oh crap, I'm falling over" messages to your brain.

Grahameeboy
3rd January 2007, 06:01
All of that and I pull the opposite bar a bit too.........

Jeeze Jim does your brain never sleep.........respect to you.

DEATH_INC.
3rd January 2007, 06:18
If I've got a bit of pace on what I do is sorta fall to the inside and then catch myself with the bike.......like jim sez, harder to explain than do. Oh, and looking through the corner (again re jim) is real important.

bugjuice
3rd January 2007, 06:38
wow, that's a lot for this time of the mornin Jim!

oh, relax too, kinda helps. Over think something, and it won't work.

ArcherWC
3rd January 2007, 07:16
What Death and Jim said

Motu
3rd January 2007, 07:51
Sounds like you are riding like a dirt rider,pushing the bike down lower than your body...I often do that on tight corners.A dirt rider (or motard on road) will often keep their inner arm straight and push down on the bars through their shoulder - it's still countersteering,just a more forceful way of doing it...making the bike turn....and that's what countersteering is all about.

You need to be more subtle maybe,move with the body first and the bike will follow.

Squeak the Rat
3rd January 2007, 08:23
If like I did, you have trouble dropping your inside shoulder (source: Jim2, 2,b ), you could try dropping your inside elbow lower than your hand.

Ixion
3rd January 2007, 09:04
Some folk (like me) find it easier to pull the outer bar rather than push the inner one. Try that.

Grahameeboy
3rd January 2007, 09:16
Some folk (like me) find it easier to pull the outer bar rather than push the inner one. Try that.

I do both..............as you know..wink wink!!

El Dopa
3rd January 2007, 09:20
I agreed and understand how counter-steering works. In fact, the skill has saved me from many nasty potholes.

The problem is with my body's position. When I engage a bend at a high speed, my body will just shift the opposite side of the turn when counter steering. I try forcing my body to lean INTO the bend while counter steering, but it just feels weird.

How do I remedy it?

I used to do exactly the same thing. I read about counter-steering, everyone said I should be doing it, so I did. However, it felt weird leaning my body into the corner, so I'd bend at the waist and lean the opposite way to the bike - sort of try and stand myself upright while the bike was leaning.

I've stopped doing that because I realised the bike would tip into the corner quicker, and corner harder and faster, if I dropped my body weight into the corner too.

It does feel unnatural, but I keep telling myself to do it when I'm riding and cornering. The plan is to keep doing it and doing it and doing it until something that seems unnatural and counter-intuitive becomes instinctive.


Some folk (like me) find it easier to pull the outer bar rather than push the inner one. Try that.

I do that, too.

Squeak the Rat
3rd January 2007, 09:54
Some folk (like me) find it easier to pull the outer bar rather than push the inner one. Try that.

Or some weirdo's (like me) use left hand for turning, right hand for throttle....... My right hand can't multi-task, especially when lent over.

86GSXR
3rd January 2007, 09:55
Thanks to all you guys on this thread for some really good info on counter steering, esp that breakdown Jim2. I'm getting back into the biking after a wee break, and this stuff is great.

XP@
3rd January 2007, 10:14
This is Keith Code on the subject of countersteering. He points out that your body alone dosent make any difference to the direction.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Whilst this is true, I have found that since I have started consiously adjusting my lean in to the corner rather than out of the corner my speed has increased. On a fave set of corners I used to scrape pegs at 60kph, now I take the same corner at 70kph and still have room to spare.

terbang
3rd January 2007, 10:14
We all countersteer with or without realising it. I apply pressure in the direction I want to lean (left bar, lean left and vice versa). As far as my body position, I tend to shift my weight into the turn by either dropping my shoulder into it or shifting my arse to the edge of the seat or a combination. This has the effect of what I call finding the "sweet spot" of the turn. A position where I am relaxed with my weight spread between footpeg and seat and the bike also feels relaxed while it is turning on your chosen line with minute handlebar adjustments (countersteer) fine-tuning its path.

Ixion
3rd January 2007, 10:25
This is Keith Code on the subject of countersteering. He points out that your body alone dosent make any difference to the direction.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Whilst this is true, I have found that since I have started consiously adjusting my lean in to the corner rather than out of the corner my speed has increased. On a fave set of corners I used to scrape pegs at 60kph, now I take the same corner at 70kph and still have room to spare.

Bear in mind though that there is no free lunch. Moving weight inward will mean a higher speed for the same angle of lean (as you observe). But the price is a higher sideways force through the tyre, which means a greater risk of breakaway and lowside. Not really an issue nowdays for people with sporty tyres, they are so sticky, but it can be something to consider for those using knobblies on the road. (then again of course, weight outward will reduce sliding force but risk rolling over the edge of the knobs. Sigh. So many variables) Or, those on small bikes with plastic tyres like the FXR150.

James Deuce
3rd January 2007, 10:38
This is Keith Code on the subject of countersteering. He points out that your body alone dosent make any difference to the direction.
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.html

Whilst this is true, I have found that since I have started consiously adjusting my lean in to the corner rather than out of the corner my speed has increased. On a fave set of corners I used to scrape pegs at 60kph, now I take the same corner at 70kph and still have room to spare.

See point 1c. I always select my angle of lean from my steering input, not a vague "leany over type feeling thingy."

I was trying to avoid Keith Code because he's far too complex for someone just starting down this path.

I've condensed his stuff in my post up the page.

Pointing your shoulder has the effect of generating a positive push steering input while you are getting used to active participation in countersteering.

Read Keith Code at your peril. If you are not a person given to Metaphysics you will be confused or overwhelmed or both almost instantly.

bluninja
4th January 2007, 08:04
Read Keith Code at your peril. If you are not a person given to Metaphysics you will be confused or overwhelmed or both almost instantly.

I love the way he explains each word he uses as if the readers are morons; but then it was written with americans in mind. :yes:

Nice simple explanation Jim.

Only things I would offer in addition is get yourself in position on the bike, before you start your turn, when it's upright.

pritch
4th January 2007, 09:38
Sounds like you are riding like a dirt rider,pushing the bike down lower than your body...I often do that on tight corners.

I used to do that too and since it was the opposite of what should have been happening it was a minor worry, but now I have the answer.

Last weekend I re-read TOTW2 and found this problem is discussed therein in detail. You place your weight on the outside foot peg which should make you move your body with the bike. This also helps the bike remain stable in bumpy corners.

It can be a bit difficult to start with; pushing the left bar and weighting the right peg etc, but if you weight the peg just before you make the steering input you should be fine.

Sometimes, in the early stages of cementing this new method in, I'd be momentarily confused as to which peg to weight when approaching a bend so I decided if in doubt weight both.

Crisis management
4th January 2007, 12:19
I wonder if we try to hard on this counter steering, body position stuff?
Counter steering is wonderful and a natural progression in learnt skills but I feel we always seem to try and combine it with shifting body position as well when it works fine if you just do the sack of potatoes act on the seat.

I move all over my bikes and ride a varied combination of styles on either the road or dirt bike dependant on conditions, level of boredom etc but it works just as well for 90% of the time just sitting on the bike vertical to the bikes axis and letting the whole lot lean together.

As Jim2 says, Keith Code is complicated, and surely we should just give advice about getting the bike in the right place on the road and smoothly cornering rather than complicating it with the Kama Sutra of sprots bike fashion?

As a rider progresses it will make sense to move your body around but at the start what we want is a confident entry, apex and exit from the corner and to achieve this let the guy concentrate on sitting in one position and aclimatising to the sensation of lean.

Right, time for my afternoon nap.....

AllanB
4th January 2007, 12:56
RELAX - chew some gum while you ride, it will take your mind off over thinking each corner.

Enter at a low- medium speed - if it all looks good you can power on mid corner.

Try sticking the inside knee out a wee bit

RELAX

James Deuce
4th January 2007, 13:01
Chewing gum while riding can be fatal.

Chewing gum lodged in an airway can be a bastard to remove, whether it got lodged there by a pothole, or an accident, it doesn't matter when you can't breathe and people can't clear your airway.

Ixion
4th January 2007, 13:04
It's a bit like the difference between sex education and shagging , really. Works better and lot more fun if you just get on with the practical stuff, rather than getting all tied up in the theory

XP@
4th January 2007, 15:47
The Keith Code quote was intended to show this:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Which is the no bs bike which shows that leaning alone does not do anything.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/video-clips/nobs.mov

This is not what is asked in the original question which is how not to feel strange leaning in to a high speed bend.

Is there a page anywhere which shows the differences between leaning "in", "with" and "out" of a corner?

I have been taught that on the road you should lean "in" or "with" because we are helping the physics og the corner. I remember that at first making the change to leaning in was strange, it went against everything i had taught myself. But now the reverse would be true, it just took a little practice.

James Deuce
4th January 2007, 16:16
The main issues with leaning feeling odd is to do with not looking through the corner and not keeping your head level with the horizon. It doesn't matter what method of body position you use, if you lean your head over and look directly in front of the bike it will freak you out.

Naki
4th January 2007, 21:35
When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually via the handlebars, in the opposite direction. While necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable as speed increases.

A bike can negotiate a curve only when it leans towards the inside of the turn, at an angle appropriate for the velocity and the sharpness of the turn. Otherwise centrifugal force will tip the bike and rider over towards the outside of the curve. The transition of riding in a straight line to negotiating a turn is a process of leaning the bike into the turn.

If a rider wants to turn to the right, he first throws the bike off balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this straight line. As gravity then tips the bike over to the right, the front wheel is steered into the curve, and the curve is negotiated with the proper inward lean. This process usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry (rake and trail on motorcycles) of the steering of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean.

At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike.

Once in a turn, countersteering is again required to make changes to its shape. The only way to decrease the radius at the same speed is to increase the lean angle, and the only way to increase the lean angle, is again to momentarily steer opposite to the direction of the curve. To the untrained, this can be extremely counter-intuitive.

To exit a turn, countersteer by momentarily steering further in the direction of the turn. This tilts the bike back upright.

Countersteering is indispensable for bike steering. Most people are not consciously aware that they employ countersteering when riding their bike. Their body has learned to include the well timed countersteering jolt. They may have learned to do so while learning to ride a bicycle in childhood. Often people simply assume that the steering of a bike is just like the steering of a car. Their subconscious balance skills know better.

Motu
4th January 2007, 21:48
Chuck Norris does not countersteer - the turn leans into his bike....

bluninja
5th January 2007, 03:17
At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike.


I'll disagree on that point. On a stationary bike if I turn to the left and then set off (say I'm doing a U turn) I turn tightly to the left. Myself and the bike are still subject to gravity and centripetal forces but do not require countersteering to initiate the turn.

When countersteering 2 forces (gyroscopic precession? and interia) cause the bike to move onto the side of the tyres, where camber thrust provides the turning moment. At low speeds both these forces are very very low, else you would position the bike to turn left, accelerate away and immediately fall (and turn) to the right.

All this physics stuff goes over my head...really.

In terms of position on the bike through a corner....make sure your weight is primarily on the outside peg, and less weight on the seat. This lowers your centre of gravity as the point where your body weight acts is now lower on the bike than the seat. If you weight the inside peg your body weight and any leverage applied is pushing the bike downwards till you either fall off the edge of the tyres, or your peg digs in with your full weight on it(this is at the extreme). Weighting the outer peg does the opposite.

Also if you weight the inside peg and fall off there is more chance of trapping your foot/leg under the bike than if it's free to allow a graceless step off and slide.

Motu
5th January 2007, 13:12
Countersteering is ingrained and natural to all of us - it's part of our balancing act to stay upright.

I've had a few sidecars and never had a problem riding them,I knew how to ride one in the first 100 metres,some people have problems - and my wife is one.A sidecar is set up with a small amount of leanout,this is to counteract the pull of the sidecar and road camber.When my wife gave riding my child/adult outfit a go as she went down the drive she kept turning right and crashing into the fence bordering the driveway.No matter how I explaned it to her she kept vearing off to the right - she was countersteering to bring the bike upright,no way would her subconcious mind allow her to ride the bike leaning to the right.

Oh,and weighting the pegs doesn't lower the centre of gravity.

bluninja
5th January 2007, 23:42
Oh,and weighting the pegs doesn't lower the centre of gravity.

Busted :dodge:

Quite right...though depending on the position of your seat and pegs, weighting the pegs may alter the horizontal position of CG and thus effect the handling. Only way to lower CG is to crouch down on the tank or bend at the middle. Now my urban myth is exposed and I've been busted I won't use it anymore.

Blahhh
14th January 2007, 02:36
Woohooo.. I seem to be able to lean my body into the bend whilst countersteering now. After reading the posts here and re-evaluating my body posture, I discovered the reason I leaned against the corner was because my inside elbow was straight (kinda like forcing the bike down). Taking a corner feels so much better when I bend my elbow into the corner.

Now I am going to focus on my eyepoint, ain't too good at that yet!

Strider
10th October 2007, 15:03
What is the best way to turn a bend/corner and what is counter steering? I need to build up my confidence on the cornering of my riding. Just not sure on how to best way to lean / turn at speed. Do I stay to the left of the road to turn left and same for the right or do I go a wide and turn from just in side the centre line?

enigma51
10th October 2007, 15:10
There is no such thing as truning when you ride a boulevard :p

TLMAN
10th October 2007, 15:20
What is the best way to turn a bend/corner and what is counter steering? I need to build up my confidence on the cornering of my riding. Just not sure on how to best way to lean / turn at speed. Do I stay to the left of the road to turn left and same for the right or do I go a wide and turn from just in side the centre line?

Countersteering - try it!!

Push the left grip forward and youll veer left
Push the right grip forward and youll veer right

Its that simple.

yungatart
10th October 2007, 15:21
Get yourself a mentor.

The Stranger
10th October 2007, 15:32
Counter steering is essentially pushing on the left bar to turn left and vica versa.

For any given speed which is easier, a tighter curve or a more open curve? A more open curve is the correct answer. So why not start your left bend from the RHS of the lane and your right curve from the LHS of the lane? This produces the easiest curve.

As to leaning, try it on a round about some time. When it is clear to do so try keeping a consistent speed and leaning your upper torso into the corner then try leaning it away from the corner. As you lean in you will find the bike wanting to stand up to hold the same arc and you lean out you will find the bike wanting to lay over toward the corner more to keep the same arc.

So leaning in will give you more ground clearance. That said, I can't say I have ever seen a cruiser rider lean independently of their bike.

avgas
10th October 2007, 15:37
get a little bike until you graduate....
rest of us had to

GaZBur
10th October 2007, 15:40
Get yourself a mentor.
Great Idea.
If you are trying to push yourself in corners then please make sure you late apex a corner. That gives you more room when you stuff it up, and you can guarantee you will the harder you push. Most good road riders do that all the time without thinking about it, not the fastest but more survivable cornering style.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(racing)

enigma51
10th October 2007, 15:40
get a little bike until you graduate....
rest of us had to

Fucking amen

Sorry dude but a boulevard is not the bike to learn things like counter steering on

bert_is_evil
10th October 2007, 15:47
Surely when someone asks about countersteering it's because they don't know what the term means, not that they don't know how to do it. It would be impossible for anyone who's ridden a motorcycle/pushbike at any speed greater than 10kph not to have countersteered at some point (unknowlingly)!

Pumba
10th October 2007, 15:49
Is Ride Right Ride safe (http://www.rrrs.org.nz/index.html) in the Hut? If it is best you get along to ASAP

limbimtimwim
10th October 2007, 16:10
Go on one of Andrew's courses, it's worth the day out of your life to do it.

http://roadsafe.co.nz/contact/contact.htm

Talk to him about what course is for you. He has a tuition style that you'll either love or hate, but give him a chance. You will spend A LOT of the course talking about the best way around a corner.

Also go along to this: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=57104 and talk to people. The vast majority of people there will be glad to share their thoughts and answer your questions.

smoky
10th October 2007, 16:16
Counter steering is essentially pushing on the left bar to turn left and vica versa.

So leaning in will give you more ground clearance. That said, I can't say I have ever seen a cruiser rider lean independently of their bike.

ha ha ha - not the kind of thing you do much on a cruiser

When they say push the handle bars- they are talking about a gradual pressure being applied - try it, It works.

look up driving lines or apex of a corner on google

One thing though - get off the brakes when your cornering, unless you're wanting to back into a corner using your rear brakes, the general rule is, You can't go around a corner and be on the brakes at the same time.
Most learners I've riden with are hard on the front brake and go striaght ahead instead of around the corner.
You're better off taking your chance in the corner, even if you're going too fast, than to stay hard on the brakes.

terbang
10th October 2007, 16:48
For any given speed which is easier, a tighter curve or a more open curve? A more open curve is the correct answer. So why not start your left bend from the RHS of the lane and your right curve from the LHS of the lane? This produces the easiest curve.


Bingo and it also lets you see further into the curve as you enter.

325rocket
10th October 2007, 16:49
get hold of buckbuck and go on one of his cornering sessions around the hutt.
hes really good at this sort of thing

terbang
10th October 2007, 16:52
get a little bike until you graduate....
rest of us had to

You assume he hasn't, or know something..?


Fucking amen

Sorry dude but a boulevard is not the bike to learn things like counter steering on

Guy asks for a bit of advice on countersteering, probably just trying to get to grips with the glossary.
If he's riding a boulevard then he is definatly countersteering. Whether he knows it or not is a different story.

Strider
10th October 2007, 19:44
There is no such thing as truning when you ride a boulevard :p

What is "truning"?

BMW
10th October 2007, 19:49
Surely when someone asks about countersteering it's because they don't know what the term means, not that they don't know how to do it. It would be impossible for anyone who's ridden a motorcycle/pushbike at any speed greater than 10kph not to have countersteered at some point (unknowlingly)!

agreed most people do the leaning and the countersteering without knowing

I did one of the Ride Safe, Ride Right courses. Well worth it on any bike. Even if you think you know about riding!

Strider
10th October 2007, 19:51
get a little bike until you graduate....
rest of us had to

I have a full license, Just been many years since I last rode and just needed some under standing and refresh my memory on cornering and what counter steering is.

HenryDorsetCase
10th October 2007, 19:59
For an interesting take on this, and a demonstration and discussion of the theory a bit, check out the "No BS" bike at the California Superbike School (http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php)

I hope to do the Philip Island CSS next year in April :rockon:

smoky
10th October 2007, 20:03
get a little bike until you graduate....
rest of us had to

I've got an idea - lets make really fast light bikes and stick a pimple arsed hormone induced beginner on it.


I have a full license, Just been many years since I last rode...

good on ya mate - your bikes a hell of a lot safer than some of those 250 screaming death machines - go like a strangled fart, and can't stop at all.

tri boy
10th October 2007, 20:09
What is "truning"?

Thats a new one to me too.:scratch:

Mental Trousers
10th October 2007, 20:15
Surely when someone asks about countersteering it's because they don't know what the term means, not that they don't know how to do it. It would be impossible for anyone who's ridden a motorcycle/pushbike at any speed greater than 10kph not to have countersteered at some point (unknowlingly)!


agreed most people do the leaning and the countersteering without knowing

I did one of the Ride Safe, Ride Right courses. Well worth it on any bike. Even if you think you know about riding!

True. However, I have seen a couple of cases where people didn't counter steer at all, instead they wrestled the bike around corners. Needless to say their riding was scary for both them and anyone around them until they were shown what it's all about.

smoky
10th October 2007, 20:17
What is "truning"?

It's like pruning a tree - t'runing

MyGSXF
10th October 2007, 20:19
Go on one of Andrew's courses, it's worth the day out of your life to do it.

http://roadsafe.co.nz/index.html

I totally & utterly 100% second that suggestion!!!!!!!!!!! :niceone:

I've just spent all of last weekend, A) helping out on Sat & B) participating on Sun, in courses Andrew & Lynne come down here to hold every year!! This is the 3rd year in a row now that I have been. They are absolutley bloody brilliant!!!!! :2thumbsup I CANNOT speak highly enough & totally recommend that EVERY motorcyclist attend one.. NO matter HOW long they have been riding!!! here's a link to a post I put up last year..

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=804098&postcount=1

Ring them up, book yaself in & DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:

Jen :rockon:

howdamnhard
10th October 2007, 20:22
What Stranger said and do a Ride Safe,Ride Right course.:niceone:If turning stay wide and then cut in straight across the apex.Just be careful of cagers and your head going over the middle line.Remember slow into corners and fast out.Try keep an even slightly positive throttle going through the corner accelerating smoothly as you have a clean light out of the corner.Also try relax and concentrate on being smooth,the fast comes with it naturally.If you come in to hot just try lean further.Countersteering is a much easier way of getting a heavy bike like yours to lean over rather than trying to manhandle it.Hope this helps,take it easy and enjoy.:clap:

MyGSXF
10th October 2007, 20:34
Notes on cornering from the Roadsafe course. :Punk:

* Keep your eyes on the horizon - turn your head & look where you want to go.

* Slow down on the approach to the curve. (brake & change down gear as necessary while upright & straight.. BEFORE the corner)

* Enter wide for better visibility, apex only when you can see the exit, exit in the centre to allow for drift out wide under acceleration.

* Just before leaning into the corner - need positive throttle. Constant speed through the curve using constant throttle.

* When exiting, look up and around.

* Use of counter-steering

tri boy
10th October 2007, 20:50
It's like pruning a tree - t'runing

Aaaaah clear as mud......
I'm useless at that, killed a Poplar tree once using "assertive Pruning" techniques.:doh:

smoky
10th October 2007, 20:56
"assertive Pruning"

that would be ass'truning

Cr1MiNaL
10th October 2007, 22:09
Counter steering is essentially pushing on the left bar to turn left and vica versa.

For any given speed which is easier, a tighter curve or a more open curve? A more open curve is the correct answer. So why not start your left bend from the RHS of the lane and your right curve from the LHS of the lane? This produces the easiest curve.

As to leaning, try it on a round about some time. When it is clear to do so try keeping a consistent speed and leaning your upper torso into the corner then try leaning it away from the corner. As you lean in you will find the bike wanting to stand up to hold the same arc and you lean out you will find the bike wanting to lay over toward the corner more to keep the same arc.

So leaning in will give you more ground clearance. That said, I can't say I have ever seen a cruiser rider lean independently of their bike.

I don't think I know of a man who would explain this to you with more patience. However use the search feature Mr.Strider... it will bring up a lot of useful stuff... theres a couple of me on U tube bein a muppet too that might give you a few laughs...

riffer
11th October 2007, 09:55
Plenty of info on countersteering on this forum.

Here's a few I found quickly looking:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=39752

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=49983

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=44511

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=41457


Want to know more? The easiest way is to go to Search (its one of the options in the blue Tabbed field at the top of the page, go to Advanced Search, and enter the Key Word(s): steering and select the forum: Survival Skills (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=49)

Roj
11th October 2007, 10:09
What is the ......?

Having read the previous posts, welcome back to riding, take your timeand relax, if you are able to do some of the courses recommended it can be a big help,

If not try and find a menotr to get you back into riding.

avgas
11th October 2007, 10:13
I've got an idea - lets make really fast light bikes and stick a pimple arsed hormone induced beginner on it.

good on ya mate - your bikes a hell of a lot safer than some of those 250 screaming death machines - go like a strangled fart, and can't stop at all.
Yeh i have an idea - leave L platers to drive semi's too.
Just cos its not fast doesnt mean its easier than a 250 single :P
Also if i can get a GN125 to do 130 2-up dont give me bullshit about torque etc

MSTRS
11th October 2007, 10:16
Having read the previous posts, welcome back to riding, take your timeand relax, if you are able to do some of the courses recommended it can be a big help,

If not try and find a menotr to get you back into riding.

+1. Best advice is to remember that one never forgets how to ride, but you gotta appreciate that you will be rusty. Oh - and that bike design has come a long way in the last few years in terms of power output and tyre technology.

smoky
11th October 2007, 20:14
Yeh i have an idea - leave L platers to drive semi's too.
Just cos its not fast doesnt mean its easier than a 250 single :P
Also if i can get a GN125 to do 130 2-up dont give me bullshit about torque etc

Not sure I follow your logic (presuming you have one)
Who said their bikes not fast?
Doing 130 two up on a 125 ! is that an achievement? I never said anything about torque?

Point I was making was; our government has decided to limit the cc of bikes that learners can ride – yet there are some pretty amazing small bikes that have the ability to get up there and really boogie – they don’t always have the same performance ability to stop due to being light weight, smaller brakes, smaller tyres and so on. They take a bit more skill to ride than some larger cc bikes.
Some smaller bikes have a better power to weight ratio than larger bikes in the 400 cruiser range.

enigma51
12th October 2007, 23:13
I have a full license, Just been many years since I last rode and just needed some under standing and refresh my memory on cornering and what counter steering is.

No problem with the counter steering question but refreshing? must have been a very long time

Reckless
12th October 2007, 23:45
Just remember countersteering is usually only done at the moment of turn in.
I had a mate that swears he pushes the bars slightly the opposite way all the through the corner. He thinks thats countersteering. Thats quite wrong!
You are much much better to lean in with your shoulder mid corner and let the bike do its thing without assisting it with un-natural opposite locking type bar movements. Most people don't even know they are doing it upon turn in, and thats quite ok!

Over doing it is described quite well and breifly here http://www.thunderbike.co.nz/workshop/notes/lifeAfterCountersteering.htm

There is also quite a few good vids on U tube if you do a search.

My opinion only! I may get a lot of replies saying you do this or that and there are a lot of different techneques to tuck the bike in extra. But generally I think I'm pretty correct?? :confused:

Strider
13th October 2007, 18:51
:spanking:Had a ride from the Lower Hutt all the way up to Kapit coastlands. It has refresh my confidence again in my riding so no prob in the corner. Just a lot of wind around on the Hutt motorway and the Haywards hill. So other than that it was a RUSH getting back into riding. :2thumbsup

Strider
13th October 2007, 18:54
More riding the better I will build up my Confidence.:niceone::msn-wink:

Toaster
13th October 2007, 18:58
There is no such thing as truning when you ride a boulevard :p

Ain't that the truth!!! <_< Mine has so much gravitational pull, the road sticks to the bike.

Toaster
13th October 2007, 19:03
My advice:

Practice as often as possible and challenge yourself a little more each ride.

Countersteering is vital on cruisers, especially the big ones.

Don't forget to look through the corners and look well ahead - not straight ahead. Works really well and helps pull you round the corners and straighten up nicely. (remember "look where you want to go").

Entry position is important. Stay wide as long as you can then turn in, follow a smooth curving line and you should sit nicely for the exit. This was you can maintain more speed and keep it smoother.

crash99
15th October 2007, 10:45
Read
A TWIST OF THE WRIST VOLUME II
THE BASICS OF HIGH-PERFORMANCE MOTORCYCLE RIDING
BY KEITH CODE
for a real understanding of how all these things work together.
:rockon:

avgas
15th October 2007, 16:14
Some smaller bikes have a better power to weight ratio than larger bikes in the 400 cruiser range.
Actually alot of Sub-250's have better power to weight than 400's. As someone that went from a 150 smoker to a 400 single, to save my life and my license i know. But if you have a look at what this guy is riding as a first bike - you can see the reason for my comment.
My feeling is if you have to ask about cornering, while owning a 50+hp machine.....well lets just say i hope the road is gentle to you.
If i had not ridden a bike for 10 years, the first thing i would do is go out and buy a cheap, gutless bike to re-learn how to ride......then after i had some skills i would buy a bigger one.
I'm not talking the govt. bs that comes with cc rating....im talking common sense. 400cc cruisers are ok in my books for "learners" or re-learners. Not the best option for them - but better than 'anything goes'
I'm sick of seeing people destroy lovely creations because they don't have the skill to own them.
Ego's kill more people than women.

duckonin
15th October 2007, 16:44
It's all good strider, take your time you have a good set of wheels between your legs, be gentle with the bars, next time out wriggle the bars at 80ks get it figured out how responsive your machine is you may be surprised..most of all keep your tire pressures right makes all the difference...

Strider
15th October 2007, 20:20
[QUOTE=avgas;1247835]Actually alot of Sub-250's have better power to weight than 400's. As someone that went from a 150 smoker to a 400 single, to save my life and my license i know. But if you have a look at what this guy is riding as a first bike - you can see the reason for my comment.
My feeling is if you have to ask about cornering, while owning a 50+hp machine.....well lets just say i hope the road is gentle to you.
If i had not ridden a bike for 10 years, the first thing i would do is go out and buy a cheap, gutless bike to re-learn how to ride......then after i had some skills i would buy a bigger one.
I'm not talking the govt. bs that comes with cc rating....im talking common sense. 400cc cruisers are ok in my books for "learners" or re-learners. Not the best option for them - but better than 'anything goes'
I'm sick of seeing people destroy lovely creations because they don't have the skill to own them.

Looking at your profile, at 24 years and some who rides a sport bike. Does that make you an expert on cruisers and who should be riding what ever cc's? So are are you saying I should be starting of on a 400 cc (looking at your profile pic) I would say that bike would be mush more faster and dangerous than a 800cc cruiser, cruise being a bike to sit back, taking my time riding and enjoying the ride compare to a sport bike made for speed. I will stick with my choice the right choice.

discotex
16th October 2007, 11:27
+1 for Twist of the Wrist. It's only $30 from Fishpond.co.nz

http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Sports_Recreation/Motor_Sports/product_info/1327959

Best video I've seen that shows countersteering in action.

lxM_GU7W-dE

Badjelly
16th October 2007, 16:33
My feeling is if you have to ask about cornering, while owning a 50+hp machine.....well lets just say i hope the road is gentle to you. If i had not ridden a bike for 10 years, the first thing i would do is go out and buy a cheap, gutless bike to re-learn how to ride......then after i had some skills i would buy a bigger one.

Why you whippersnapper! I've half a mind to box your ears.

Just because he asked a question on the forum, doesn't mean he has no skills. 10 years away from biking might make you a little rusty, but it doesn't turn you into a novice. As for the 50+hp, doesn't that depend on how far you twist your wrist?

Badjelly
16th October 2007, 16:45
Just remember countersteering is usually only done at the moment of turn in. I had a mate that swears he pushes the bars slightly the opposite way all the through the corner. He thinks thats countersteering. Thats quite wrong! You are much much better to lean in with your shoulder mid corner and let the bike do its thing without assisting it with un-natural opposite locking type bar movements. Most people don't even know they are doing it upon turn in, and thats quite ok!

Over doing it is described quite well and briefly here http://www.thunderbike.co.nz/worksho...ersteering.htm

My opinion only!

I don't agree that countersteering is only relevant to turn-in. I think it depends very much on the bike: once you've started the bike on the turn, some bikes will want to follow a constant radius, some won't, and of course on most bikes it depends on how much power you apply at the rear wheel.

In my attempts to re-learn riding over the last month, I've found that my cornering has improved in smoothness as I've though consciously about adjusting the bike's line through the corner via handlebar inputs.

The link you've given sets up & demolishes a straw man: apparently counter-steering consists of successive violent nudges to the handlebars, with the arms locked straight in between to cope with the enormous forces involved. Well, yes, it's not good idea to do it that way. So I don't.

My opinion only.

Strider
16th October 2007, 17:51
That video really clears things up on what counter steering is. Thanks alot:niceone:

Strider
16th October 2007, 18:02
I have had done a few ks on my bike even been from Lower Hutt up the Kapiti coast. I also have to travel over the Wainiomata hill to or from home on the bike. For those that know that hill, it is a good hill to get to understand the counter steering. I am not out to break any speed records nor have I have not had any riding problems with handling the bike. I also have booked in for the Roadsafe course coming up in November just to help improve my riding. So thanks to all you "kiwibikers" for your advice.:woohoo:

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 12:06
Thanks to all you guys on this thread for some really good info on counter steering, esp that breakdown Jim2. I'm getting back into the biking after a wee break, and this stuff is great.

Getting back into biking after a "wee break" What did you break and do you think the breakage could have been avoided if you knew more about countersteering?

GSVR
23rd January 2008, 13:54
Countersteering - try it!!

Push the left grip forward and youll veer left
Push the right grip forward and youll veer right

Its that simple.

I tried this and almost fell off :no: Think I'll just stick to my natural don't even think about it steering.

MotoKuzzi
23rd January 2008, 17:36
Perhaps its the width of the bars, and other geometry of the bike, but when I first tried counter steeriing with forceful inputs ( as recommended ) I damn near went into a ditch. I've since refined it to minor pressure ( pulling ) left or right will cause the Guzzie to go exactly where I want it. And a light weight on the outer handle bar will steer it round a tight corner without requiring to much shifting of body position. But its good to practise both.

mowgli
26th January 2008, 07:36
Woohooo.. I seem to be able to lean my body into the bend whilst countersteering now. After reading the posts here and re-evaluating my body posture, I discovered the reason I leaned against the corner was because my inside elbow was straight (kinda like forcing the bike down). Taking a corner feels so much better when I bend my elbow into the corner.

Now I am going to focus on my eyepoint, ain't too good at that yet!

Congrats on figuring it out. I was once told to imagine kissing my mirrors going into turns. It helps with leaning and pushes the inside shoulder forward a little to help with counter steering.

I've also had trouble with straight arms. I gave myself a scare in a corner when my position and speed were off. I knew I needed to lay the bike further into the turn but counter steering didn't seem to be working. WTF @#$! I played around afterwards and discovered that it was my tensed up, straightened outside arm that was cancelling out pushing forward on the inside.

Now when I think counter steering I don't think "push inside forward", I think about rotating my shoulders. This has freed up my steering control heaps especially at town speeds.

MVnut
26th January 2008, 07:41
Sounds like you are riding like a dirt rider,pushing the bike down lower than your body...I often do that on tight corners.A dirt rider (or motard on road) will often keep their inner arm straight and push down on the bars through their shoulder - it's still countersteering,just a more forceful way of doing it...making the bike turn....and that's what countersteering is all about.

You need to be more subtle maybe,move with the body first and the bike will follow.

Now this comment I like !!!:scooter:

steveb64
5th February 2008, 16:13
All of that and I pull the opposite bar a bit too.........

Snip'd



Some folk (like me) find it easier to pull the outer bar rather than push the inner one. Try that.

DON'T pull! PUSH!

I'm not exactly sure why (some other race guru may have a better explanation - please do) - but pushing on the inside bar seems to stabilise things much better than pulling on the outside bar does. A mate of mine who's done a lot of racing passed the tip onto me some years ago (after a race school IIRC) - I tended to pull on the outside too, but once he pointed it out to me, and I started experimenting, and found that it DID make a difference (quite a large one too!) - I now push on the inside bar....
IMO - it's to do with having the inside arm under pressure (as opposed to tension), which sets up a form of triangulation between the grip, the shoulder, and the seat - helping to keep things stabilised - particularly in those corners where the entry speed has turned out to be slightly higher than it really should have been...
...maybe also to do with it being easier to keep your arm steady when you're pushing something, than when you're pulling something?

YellowDog
5th February 2008, 16:42
Thanks for some very good explanations. I poersonally find that my best cornering is when I have no idea at all what just happenned.

Looking through the corner, for me, means that everything else just happens automatically. It is a very strange sensation.

I went through a period of struggling with confidence as I had kind of forgotten how to corner. A very strange feeling however I was just focussing on the road infront of me and not the entire bend.

Where the problem comes is that when you want to ride faster, you start to think more about what you are actually doing.

The Stranger
5th February 2008, 16:47
DON'T pull! PUSH!

I'm not exactly sure why (some other race guru may have a better explanation - please do) - but pushing on the inside bar seems to stabilise things much better than pulling on the outside bar does. A mate of mine who's done a lot of racing passed the tip onto me some years ago (after a race school IIRC) - I tended to pull on the outside too, but once he pointed it out to me, and I started experimenting, and found that it DID make a difference (quite a large one too!) - I now push on the inside bar....
IMO - it's to do with having the inside arm under pressure (as opposed to tension), which sets up a form of triangulation between the grip, the shoulder, and the seat - helping to keep things stabilised - particularly in those corners where the entry speed has turned out to be slightly higher than it really should have been...
...maybe also to do with it being easier to keep your arm steady when you're pushing something, than when you're pulling something?


Try reading Total Control by Lee Parks for an explanation why this works.