Please don't enter blind corners too fast!

[Kinje]

I must say that something I find disturbing about Kiwi biker forums,is the way accidents,spills ,bins,whatever you like to call them,are almost boasted about.It is almost as if a crash has become a badge of office!
In my early days of motorcycling,to admit to coming off ,was to admit to being an idiot,something to be ashamed of,not something to skyte about.
It is as if we have developed a "crash culture". Shouldnt we instead be telling how many years we have ridden without a crash,or how many klm we have travelled without incident?


Was reading through another thread and found this which got me thinking. I've got a story which people might be able to learn from if I tell it, though im not proud to have crashed. I had a wee bin not long after I got my bike and kept very quiet about it. I have read on here too a few posts about going into blind corners too fast, and some claim it to be often 250 riders doing it, though just yesterday I was very concerned about the guy I was following on a big cruiser.

Well, I was on my 250 going for a blat after work. Some nice quiet twisty country roads. Got into a good groove and speed started increasing. Around one BLIND corner was a farmers gate. He had stopped in his Hilux ute, waited and checked as far as he could and pulled out. I was blasting round the corner, saw him in my path, braked then tried to swerve around the back of him. I clipped the rear corner of the ute tray and consider myself very lucky. Small amount of damage to the bike- wing mirror, brake lever, handlebar; and a bump on my right hand and knee to me. Kept it upright, but I keep thinking...

What if: he had been towing a trailer?
he had been in his tractor?
I had been going even faster?

I now have a lot more respect for blind corners. If I cant see through it I peel off the speed before the bend, then accelerate once I can see the way is clear. I like to know I can stop before or manouver around the obstruction I can't see yet. I should have been applying that from the start. I was only learning, and didn't have the skills to deal with the unexpected situation.

PLEASE dont cross the center line or enter blind corners too fast. What if???

[Toaster]

Met a nice bunch of cows on SH16 once - on a blind corner. I missed the lead cow by a couple feet. First real emergency brake I ever did. Thankfully it paid off and I didn't become one with the future burger patty staring at me as I cursed into my helmet. The other point was that i was going the speed limit. Any faster and I would have been stuffed (or the cow would have been stuffed with me).

[XP@]

Whilst we can't avoid every accident, there is quite a lot we can do to minimise the risks.

* As you say setting the right speed before the corner helps.
* You can also pay attention to your line, and delay the apex to give yourself maximum view before you commit to the corner.
* Looking where you are going also helps. Spot your turn in point, once you have ascertained the turn spot is clear, keep it in your peripheral vision and move on to look around the corner.
* Aim to exit close to the midle of the road but be prepared to change your line mid corner.

Also visit the survival skills forum there is a lot if discussion on the subject there.

[MSTRS]

We are supposed to be able to stop in half the clear distance ahead. How many of us can do this? Too fast is always relative. And difficult to quantify due to there being so many factors involved. 'twould only be truly safe to never ride a bike. (Tui moment).
I do know what you meant tho (and so does Yungatart)

[Squeak the Rat]

Next time you're out, try doing an emergency stop in the middle of a fast blind corner and stop in the visible road ahead.

Actually, please don't unless you're really competent at braking while cornering.

[XP@]

Next time you're out, try doing an emergency stop in the middle of a fast blind corner and stop in the visible road ahead.

Actually, please don't unless you're really competent at braking while cornering.

Any ideas on how to get really competent at braking while cornering?
It ain't that easy! and it is even harder when trying to work out what the hell is going on in front of you, be it a tractor, possum, gravel patch, flying biker who has recently been disconnected from bike...

[beyond]

Next time you're out, try doing an emergency stop in the middle of a fast blind corner and stop in the visible road ahead.

Actually, please don't unless you're really competent at braking while cornering.

Pleased you quantified that :)

Braking mid corner has many nasty side effects to the inexperienced and it's easy to wash out :(

[Gremlin]

We are supposed to be able to stop in half the clear distance ahead.
Thats for roads with a single lane, ie, you and oncoming each need half. For a road with at least one lane each way, the law is to be able to stop in the clear distance ahead.

Practising braking is not the only thing... as some have said, braking in a corner can lead to nasty effects. Avoidance and countermeasures can be just as an important aid.

[Squeak the Rat]

Any ideas on how to get really competent at braking while cornering?.
No ideas sorry, I'm incompetent! But that was half my point, it aint easy and we never practice it, or if we do practice it we run the risk of hurting ourselves. Catch 22 anyone?

If you are unlucky enough to encounter something in your path then your chances of a lucky escape decrease rapidly the faster you're going.

Beyond posted a good thread about this a while backhttp://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=37547.

I'd be a mild hypocrite to tell people to ride slow. But at the very least understand the risk.

[RantyDave]

Any ideas on how to get really competent at braking while cornering?
Now that is a very good question. It's clearly the point at which we, bikers, are most vulnerable and yet basically no-one has the first idea how to bail out from a fast corner. Except, perhaps, for physically bailing out ... which I have seen espoused as a viable option more than once.

How to go about learning it? Clearly 150ms before you need to know it is not the best time to work it out...

Dave

[justsomeguy]

From what I've found in my limited clumsy riding experience is that hard to severe braking in corners can be done. All it takes is a bit of practice.

Braking:

Always think progressive braking and always brake as hard as you can as quickly as you can always overestimating the amount of space you think you need - don't forget to look in the mirrors too.

The front wheel may start to fight you and start wobbling - don't squeeze the lever completely - think of an ABS system in cars - squeeze and let go a bit.

You may even get front wheel judder or the wheel hopping - it happens - just look where you want to go and focus on your exit - DON'T JUST TURN YOUR EYES - TURN YOUR WHOLE HEAD TOWARDS YOUR DESIRED EXIT.

On modern sport bikes the front gives you most of your stopping power. So it's ok to forget about your back brake and concentrate on your front and on looking where you want to go in an emergency.

When practicing start off progressively -

- By now I'm assuming you've done a lot of heavy braking practice going straight in appropriate practice areas and have familiarised yourself with how aggressively your brakes on your bike work. You've also experienced a few back wheel lock ups.


- Start off by feathering the brakes - think of how you'd stroke a girls face with your fingers - use that much force and a similar motion- a gentle pull with your fingers - you should feel your pads taking grip and hear them - but the bike should continue on its path smoothly. ALWAYS TURN YOUR WHOLE HEAD TOWARDS WHERE YOU WANT TO GO AND FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION THERE.

From there on take it one step at a time and practice applying your back brake through corners as well - but be very gentle until you're comfortable with this AND - you've already quite happy with using the front brake through corners.

If you reach a stage where you can at will bounce the front wheel under heavy braking then you're starting to approach a stage close to the limits of your brakes - give yourself a pat on the back.

Blind Corners:
Well there should be none theoretically - as you would have slowed down when you noticed the vanishing point approach you - indicating to you what the corner was doing.

If the vanishing point stays at a constant distance from you until you see the corner exit maintain your speed, if it approaches you slow down - if it starts to draw away pour on the throttle while maintaining a speed where you can stop in the visible distance – how do you know how fast that is you ask?? – Well from all the braking practice you did earlier :)

Oh before I forget Nappy Yew Hear & Welcome!!! To the mad house.

:niceone:

[Bonez]

One of those hazards one has to accept when on back country roads, along with cow shit, slips, fallen trees, etc. Glad you come out relatively ok Kinje. I would say amount of looking ahead blah blah blah would have helped in this sitiuation by the sound of it. If I was you I'd go out and buy a lotto ticket.

[Moxy]

*edit: oops. Justsomeguy submitted his comment just as I started writing this one. The only thing I would add is: when you're in a lean, the best thing to do is use just the front brake, and avoid the back completely - if you lock the back, you'll probably highside when you come back off of it*

Just practice breaking in sweeping corners, and straightening out the bike at the same time until you get good at it. Even if you just practice slowing down mid-corner, you'll get a feel for it. (take it easy!) I think it's just a matter of getting your muscle memory trained to gauge how hard you can break before highsiding.

Also - you probably want to avoid using the rear break as much as possible when you are in a lean!

For me, I just go around blind corners at a speed where I know that I can stop (or adjust my line) in time if I need to. I'm always worried that somebody is going to cross the center line and clip me - no amount of breaking skill will save anybody from that. :mellow:

[bell]

but I keep thinking...

What if: he had been towing a trailer?
he had been in his tractor?
I had been going even faster?

PLEASE dont cross the center line or enter blind corners too fast. What if???

Good on you for posting this thread Kinje. I've had a near miss on a bend with a rather long drop to the bottom as a result of taking a corner too fast along with a large amount of inexperience. Ok, it was the 2nd time on that bike...

There's a lot of merit to asking oneself that "What if....?" question on a very regular basis when we ride. Perhaps more so when riding on roads that we've not ridden on before. Ride the road as you find it - not how you remember it last, how you'd like to be riding it....and so on. (Was that on www.rideforever.co.nz ?)


Hmmm, weather looks good for tomorrow. Must be due some emergency braking practice.

[RantyDave]

From what I've found in my limited clumsy riding experience is that hard to severe braking in corners can be done. All it takes is a bit of practice.
Nice post - greenie applied.

Perhaps we should try to do some braking practice on TCWNR.....

Dave

[justsomeguy]

May also pay to find a copy of the road code and read up about hazard recognition, or do some of your own research.

You've already made a great start with your tendency to ask "What if?"

What if that car driver sneezes and crosses the lane?

What if there's a car hidden behind that fence I can't see approacing the intersection?

What if ......

[TLDV8]

I think part of the problem is even with practice,you do not know how you will respond/react under pressure.
Coming back from the Hamilton 250 ride the other day... Some where out the back of Mystery Creek..Ahead was a 45 kmh sign with a crest,you come over this crest thinking no worries and there is a downhill with a hairpin looming very quickly :gob: ......Not a big deal,ease some brake on,knock some K's off and turn in.
What i did think as i was doing so was......Man,it would be easy to freak out,lock the brakes up and do the straight ahead thing going off road.
I had a split second of :gob: Its what you do after that which is the million dollar question.
I do not know the answer.....You can not fly unless you try but when you jump out of the nest......... ?

Build up to things at your own pace perhap's..Expect the unexpected but not in a way that you are looking so hard you miss the obvious.

I remember being on SH22 once........coming along a straight i see a quad going along the left side of the road slower than me but at a reasonable pace,half on the tarseal........As i get closer i go to indicate and move across..... I then roll of the throttle and stay in my lane instead......When i would have been on top of this thing if i had passed he suddenly does some move across to the other side of the road without even looking..... I cruise past..He didn't look at any time.....I would have collected him for sure if i had passed.

[limbimtimwim]

Trackday trackday trackday.

One more time.

Trackday.

It is a good time to learn how brake as hard as you can, with a corner in the mix.

Look, Kinje: Here is one near you: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=946

[Bonez]

Trackday trackday trackday.

One more time.

Trackday.

It is a good time to learn how brake as hard as you can, with a corner in the mix.

Does it include cockies and fwds as well?

[The Pastor]

Go as fast as you want, protective gear nowdays is so good theres almost no chance of injury if u crash,

I go slow becuase I dont wear any gear, so im safe as houses.

[beyond]

JSG made some good points.

If you know what you are doing, you can actually brake very hard when in corners but there is a limit and they are as follows:
1. Also as JSG points out, under heavy braking your rear brake is next to useless but can be used slightly in a harder lean to lean your bike even more.

2. Your front brake can be used in a turn but has the opposite effect of the rear in that it will try and stand you up, so this means you have to counter act that effect by applying more presure on the inside bar. i.e. Counter steer to off set the braking effect.

3. Under both front and rear brake there are limits which you will need to know as they are different for each bike and rider, Weights come into this equation as well as rider weight, tyre pressure and road camber. Ingore these at your peril.
If cornering too hot and hitting the brakes you cannot apply more brake than the percentage of your lean angle. i.e. At 10% lean you can use 90% braking force without disappearing sideways down the road. BUT at 90% lean you have only got 10% braking force left before you use up all your available grip. This applies to good tyres, the right pressure and dry conditions.

Once you pass the apex, you are now beginning to stand the bike up again and applying throttle and the same rules apply. 90% lean off the apex means you can use 10% throttle without upsetting the apple cart. Once you are at 10% lean off the apex, you can use 90% throttle etc.

Hope that's clear,

Violate these rules for braking and throttle on corners and you are going to lowside or highside.

[limbimtimwim]

JOnce you pass the apex, you are now beginning to stand the bike up again and applying throttle and the same rules apply. 90% lean off the apex means you can use 10% throttle without upsetting the apple cart. Once you are at 10% lean off the apex, you can use 90% throttle etc.Hope that's clear, Violate these rules for braking and throttle on corners and you are going to lowside or highside.That is far too black and white. Once you can see out of the corner, on a CBR250RR with good tyres, you could use 100% throttle at 100% lean (Pegs scraping) at peak power on a good bit of tarmac and not come off.

Trackday.

[avgas]

One thing that i have picked up over the years is to assume that the world stops where my vision ends, so i can cant see it - i prepare to stop for it.

[avgas]

Brock said it best....
"Brake on the straight, before it too late"

[justsomeguy]

That is far too black and white. Once you can see out of the corner, on a CBR250RR with good tyres, you could use 100% throttle at 100% lean (Pegs scraping) at peak power on a good bit of tarmac and not come off.

Trackday.

Really?? Cos I found the back would start to slide and you'd have to catch it on your knee and lift it slightly - this is on perfectly decent GPR70 SP's on a very mint CBR250.

[beyond]

That is far too black and white. Once you can see out of the corner, on a CBR250RR with good tyres, you could use 100% throttle at 100% lean (Pegs scraping) at peak power on a good bit of tarmac and not come off.

Trackday.

Only answer for that is the pegs are too low :)

[boomer]

Really?? Cos I found the back would start to slide and you'd have to catch it on your knee and lift it slightly - this is on perfectly decent GPR70 SP's on a very mint CBR250.

You've been watchin fuckin movies again haven't ya Arpu.... Why don't you tell it like you do it... accelerate the tits of ya bike until a corner appears, brake like there's no tomorrow then coast around.. repeat until..


a. you annoy someone
b. you annoy someone
c. you annoy someone
d. you annoy someone
e... i think you get the picture

[Kittyhawk]

I've had close calls even on straight roads with cars/livestock pulling out.

As for corners, and blind corners, if I can't see I slow down. I'm a nana, rather be a nana and safe one at that. Than clock up $$ worth of damage on my bike or to anyone else for that matter.

Usually I ride within my limits.

But sometimes situations can't be controled so you have to always be prepared and have eyes at the back of your head.:yes:

[scracha]

*edit: oops. Justsomeguy submitted his comment just as I started writing this one. The only thing I would add is: when you're in a lean, the best thing to do is use just the front brake, and avoid the back completely - if you lock the back, you'll probably highside when you come back off of it*

bwahahahaaha. This is bait no?



Also - you probably want to avoid using the rear break as much as possible when you are in a lean!

Yeah, cos controlling a front end slide is so much easier than the rear

[limbimtimwim]

Really?? Cos I found the back would start to slide and you'd have to catch it on your knee and lift it slightly - this is on perfectly decent GPR70 SP's on a very mint CBR250.I'm making the assumption that the CBR is very similar to my RVF. Of course, smaller and lighter. If I could on my 400, surely a 250 could do it? I had BT-090s on it. No way someone with my inept skill level could do that on the 750. You were saving it with your knee? You should be in MotoGP. I would have fallen off.
Only answer for that is the pegs are too low :)Yes, quite possibly. The pegs came down early on the RVF, but I am a bit of a fatty. Hanging off more might have helped.

[justsomeguy]

You were saving it with your knee? You should be in MotoGP. I would have fallen off.

Na mate - the back would start to slide - I already had my knee dragging and you'd feel the pressure on your knee slightly increase - by pushing away with my knee I could lift the bike up slightly and it would feel a lot more stable.

That's what I did - I don't really know exactly what saving it with a knee actually means. What does it mean anyway??

------

I hope you're not selling your RVF - that things a beauty. I miss my little CBR (as I do that fella with the goofy smile in the background) - lovely little machine that was :first:

[Denniso]

When it comes to blind corners on the road I have a technique that I use to increace my chances of missing any hazard and that is to enter the corner as late as possable as if you start your turn into the corner too soon you commit yourself to a line that may hurt , if you leave your turn in as late as possable you are able to see further around the corner and adjust your line to suit any hazard . This does mean that you have to turn the bike faster but a little more bar input will see this right. Failing that on the road just slow down if you want to go fast go to a race track.

[Gremlin]

Denniso, that is called late apexing (apex being the innermost point in a corner you would touch), and a wise idea for road riding. With an early apex, you can run out of options, should something go awry, and often result in having to double apex.

As you say, a late apex allows you to keep your options open, should there be an issue. Equally, I find the best thing to do, is to see your line out of the corner, and only when it is visible, do you properly accelerate. This saves you from opening up early, and finding you still have more corner to negotiate.