Graeme William Burton in custody

[jimbo600]

Graeme William Burton the twat murderer released on a fucked up parole system has been caught by the cops after the filled him with lead poisoning, well shot him in the leg anyway. Should have emptied the clip in his head though. Happened in Wainuiomata wellington.

Big pat on the back to all the cops involved with this one.

[98tls]

Agreed on all counts.............but nope........we will all have to pay for him to get older now...................:angry:

[davereid]

shit, his leg is at least 4 ft from his head.. how did they miss !

(Congrats to the plice.. but practice yer aim..)

[onearmedbandit]

I think the news said something about 3 mountain bikers getting caught up in it. Read in todays paper that at his 3rd appeal for parole family members expressed concern over a lack of remose shown by Graeme, and they felt he would quickly reoffend. Assuming this is true, obviously the parole board knew better...

[Jorja]

they said two were injured and think one is possibly dead. armed defenders are searching the area tonight. shame someone possibly had to die before they got him.

if they had killed him police would have then been investigated. some people should never be let out!!!

[98tls]

As has been said many times........if a dog hurts someone its diposed of.....why dont we get wise and face facts.....get rid of pricks like this and save innocent people from misery in the future.

[Mental Trousers]

As has been said many times........if a dog hurts someone its diposed of.....why dont we get wise and face facts.....get rid of pricks like this and save innocent people from misery in the future.
Apparently he's human and therefore has certain rights ........ /tui_ad

[marty]

good work. how many of you went to work today with the possibility of being shot?

[davereid]

ahh, actually all the shopkeepers, security guards, bank tellers etc have more chance of being at the hole end of an illegal gun than the plice.. not minimising the great job done in this case by the police, but joe public suffers serious crime too. Lets just hope an innocent mountain biker didnt cop it in this case too.

[98tls]

Apparently he's human and therefore has certain rights ........ /tui_ad Strange race humans eh.........Stalin killed 15 millon of his own then repulsed the Germans and became a fucken martyr..............:shit:

[Steam]

I sometimes wish there really was a God who burned people for all eternity, but I don't believe that sadly.
So what's the solution?

Longer sentences...?
Therapy for prisoners...?
Thousands more police and more power for them...?
Compulsory parenting classes...?
The death penalty...?
Sharia law...?
Religion in schools...?

[98tls]

I sometimes wish there really was a God who burned people for all eternity, but I don't believe that sadly.
So what's the solution?

Longer sentences...?
Therapy for prisoners...?
Thousands more police and more power for them...?
Compulsory parenting classes...?
The death penalty...?
Sharia law...?
Religion in schools...? I reckon a complusery kick up the arse for fucking up from 5 years old upwards would be a good starting point..............

[Ixion]

I sometimes wish there really was a God who burned people for all eternity, but I don't believe that sadly.
So what's the solution?

Longer sentences...?
Therapy for prisoners...?
Thousands more police and more power for them...?
Compulsory parenting classes...?
The death penalty...?
Sharia law...?
Religion in schools...?

Bullets are cheap, and effective.

[Ixion]

Strange race humans eh.........Stalin killed 15 millon of his own then repulsed the Germans and became a fucken martyr..............:shit:

Just so. Revered despite the most heinous crimes. Whilst others commit one minor indiscretion and are pariahs thenceforth.

Stalin murdering 15 million people is surely a greater crime than (for instance) The Dover raping one goat . Yet one is commended the other deplored.

[Drum]

Jebus, Wainui is dodgy!

[Swoop]

Thank-you NZ parole board....

Are you lot positive you are on the correct side of the bars?

[98tls]

Just so. Revered despite the most heinous crimes. Whilst others commit one minor indiscretion and are pariahs thenceforth.

Stalin murdering 15 million people is surely a greater crime than (for instance) The Dover raping one goat . Yet one is commended the other deplored. I can forgive Dover though.........hes so fucken ugly hes gotta take what he can get............can you imagine it........"oh yea billy....slap slap......you are one bad mother fucking goat.........slap slap"........

[RC1]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3920563a10.html

[NighthawkNZ]

"oh yea billy....slap slap......you are one bad mother fucking goat.........slap slap"........

Thats a bit grough don't yah think ;)

[Ixion]

I can forgive Dover though.........hes so fucken ugly hes gotta take what he can get............can you imagine it........"oh yea billy....slap slap......you are one bad mother fucking goat.........slap slap"........

Mind you, he's only *admitting* to one goat - but what of others that we know not of. Could hardly be 15million though, he'd have no time left for wanking.

[98tls]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3920563a10.html cheers RC.............confirms it then..........when you go to work monday feel good about the fact that your graft is going to feed this dipshit...........

[RC1]

cheers RC.............confirms it then..........when you go to work monday feel good about the fact that your graft is going to feed this dipshit...........

im a kept man and dont have a income so he aint getting shit from me.

[98tls]

Good shit.............she got a sister.............:angry:

[oldrider]

What accountability do parole boards have?
The consequences of their seemingly incompetent decisions are a bit heavy on the welfare of our own citizens!
So just to whom and how are they accountable and what happens to them when they cock up!
They seem to get it wrong more often than they get it right.
Are we going to just let them continue to release unrepentant criminals without being accountable?
Does anyone on this forum actually know anyone that is a member of a parole board?
They seem to me to be pretty protected and insulated group of incompetent dickheads judging by their results.
Sensible sentencing is one thing, sensible releasing should be on the agenda too. :yes: Cheers, really pissed off, :nono: John.

[James Deuce]

It is only anecdotal at this stage that someone is dead. If someone is dead it is likely to be one of his two accomplices involved in a home invasion last night.

In regard to the parole board's "responsibility" I keep trying to tell you people that individuals don;t matter in the great Socialist paradise. The only way out of this particular hole is revolution.

But then we'd just replace one system of mass murder, sorry, democratic government, with some other form of mass murder, sorry, government.

[RC1]

Good shit.............she got a sister.............:angry:

no i got the only lady in the bunch :Punk:

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3920563a10.html

[Steam]

When was the last push to get the death penalty re...um, reinstituted. Put in again.

[98tls]

When was the last push to get the death penalty re...um, reinstituted. Put in again. push all you like mate...........Helen will just spin round put it in her arse and feel good about shitting all over you........................

[avgas]

fuck the death penalty, that cost money, just let me do it for free

[NighthawkNZ]

What accountability do parole boards have?


Its not the first time the have fucked up... and they will do it again, and again and again...

why cause well they are stupid weak and don't learn from past mistakes

[SixPackBack]

Good job by the coppers...that retard had a fuck load of scary weapons and I for one would be more than a little nervous chasin' the prick down.

[rwh]

What accountability do parole boards have?
...
They seem to get it wrong more often than they get it right.

Really? Got stats to back that up? I'm betting the ones they get right never make the news, and there are probably far more of them.

Richard

[chanceyy]

wow go to two days speedway racing & look at what you miss ...

yay for speedway ;)

[Crasherfromwayback]

Graeme William Burton the twat murderer released on a fucked up parole system has been caught by the cops after the filled him with lead poisoning, well shot him in the leg anyway. Should have emptied the clip in his head though. Happened in Wainuiomata wellington.

Big pat on the back to all the cops involved with this one.

Indeed mate!
Came home on Wed to find my apartment complex swarming with police after this 'chap'!
Then on Thurs One News....they were showing pictures of my apartment like it was in HERE that the cunt was holed up!

Fucking glad they didn't broadcast me feeding the chickens or something.....:innocent:

[Madmax]

if it was round here he would have had a lead sedative pretty quick

[riffer]

I'm glad to see him caught. Sean Murie and Graham Watkins (my ex's father) used to own a club in Willis Street called The Carpark (now The Malthouse).

My band played there a number of times and I used to hang out there a bit because there were bands playing and my ex and I got in free and had a bit of a free bar tab there. Anyway, this piece of shit killed our lighting technician for no reason other than he was unfortunate enough to be standing next to him.

I won't go into any details other than to say that Paul never stood a chance against a mad skinhead half a foot taller and 30kgs heavier than him. I sure as hell don't understand why Sean Murie was in the paper yesterday trying to say he wasn't so bad as he had a shocking reputation before he killed Paul.

This bloke has no redeeming qualities. He should be afforded the same respect as a rabid dog.

[terbang]

You can go to their site here http://www.paroleboard.govt.nz/nzpb/index.htmland give em your thoughts on this subject if you wish. I have..


Dear Parole board,



It is now obvious that you made a gross error of judgment when releasing Graeme William Burton back into our society. What assurance can I, a citizen and father, have that you will not make such a decision again? It would be woeful to think that a lack of resources in our country’s penal system may have played a part in your misguided decision.



Yours Faithfully

Bruce Roy

[SixPackBack]

The parole board DID not commit a crime!..Graeme did, and it will be safe to say the prick will never get out again.

[Colapop]

He'll never get out again - at least not for ten years when people have forgotten who he is, then he'll be out again...

[The_Dover]

I'd like to categorically deny any allegations of interfering with goats, consensual or otherwise.

Any further questions shall be answered by my lawyer.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'd like to categorically deny any allegations of interfering with goats, consensual or otherwise.

Any further questions shall be answered by my lawyer.

What about 'dating'?....like the chappie from Blenheim a few years back....:innocent:

[my_lawyer]

I'd like to categorically deny any allegations of interfering with goats, consensual or otherwise.

Any further questions shall be answered by my lawyer.


YOU CALLED?

[MSTRS]

Really? Got stats to back that up? I'm betting the ones they get right never make the news, and there are probably far more of them.

Richard

Probably. Sad eh?

[sAsLEX]

good work. how many of you went to work today with the possibility of being shot?

There are a few on here that do.
Navy
Army
Air


Bullets are cheap, and effective.

Do the Chinese method and bill the family for the round.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/3920563a10.html

What a poorly written article. Says he is captured at the beginning and then goes on to warn people about him near the end..


The parole board DID not commit a crime!..Graeme did, and it will be safe to say the prick will never get out again.

Yeah like the last time he killed someone and was put away for good.......:shutup:

[The_Dover]

YOU CALLED?

Maurice? Is that you?

[riffer]

He'll never get out again - at least not for ten years when people have forgotten who he is, then he'll be out again...

There are some things you can't forget. Having a mate stabbed viciously to death is one of them.

[Crasherfromwayback]

There are some things you can't forget. Having a mate stabbed viciously to death is one of them.

Yeah mate....while I didn't know your mate.....I lost one the same way at a party in Belmont to some total tool armed with a knife.

Hope the New Year's going well so far....see you for some demo rides soon!:sick:

[onearmedbandit]

Should've been a chest or head shot. You could almost be 100% certain there would've been no crying over that. Now we pay for his hospital treatment, his trial, and his sky tv and underfloor heating for the rest of his life. Fucking scum does not deserve to breath the same air I do. If he was a dog, he'd be put down. But he's lower than a dog, so we keep him alive. Fucked up imo.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Should've been a chest or head shot. You could almost be 100% certain there would've been no crying over that. Now we pay for his hospital treatment, his trial, and his sky tv and underfloor heating for the rest of his life. Fucking scum does not deserve to breath the same air I do. If he was a dog, he'd be put down. But he's lower than a dog, so we keep him alive. Fucked up imo.

Won't just be your opinion Mate!:Punk:

[Swoop]

YOU CALLED?

What is your hourly rate???
Also, do you have one of those fancy wigs and a cloak when you are in the court and can it be worn at informal gatherings?

[scumdog]

There are a few on here that do.
Navy
Army
Air

....

No offence, but not in the streets of new Zealand they don't.....

[Lou Girardin]

It's reported that one person is dead and two others wounded. A Father and daughter were also assaulted.
The paper said he was attempting to steal a Bushmaster from a Police car, I'd like to know the story behind that!
It's a shame the cop shot him in the leg though. Now he'll get another chance for the Parole board to free him to kill again and the great unwashed will expect cops to be able to shoot every crim in a limb.

[sAsLEX]

No offence, but not in the streets of new Zealand they don't.....

True....but Marty didn't say to work in NZ did he.....

And you never know, whilst we aint as high up the target list as the yanks for the crazies of the world there are those that like Military targets. Remember the USS Cole...... no reason that sort of thing couldn't happen in Devonport.

[spudchucka]

Should've been a chest or head shot.

The worst of it is that now whenever the police shoot someone anywhere other than in the leg the moaning twats will all sing in chrous, "but they shot Graeme Burton in the leg".

[sAsLEX]

The worst of it is that now whenever the police shoot someone anywhere other than in the leg the moaning twats will all sing in chrous, "but they shot Graeme Burton in the leg".

One has to ask how poor the officers shooting is since you are trained to shoot at CoM are you not?

[Colapop]

There are some things you can't forget. Having a mate stabbed viciously to death is one of them.
Granted there is no lessening the memory for someone close to the situation, but for those general population - how easy it is for them to forget... Isn't that why we have parole - so we can "forget" the heinous crimes tehse f*ckers have commited?

[onearmedbandit]

The worst of it is that now whenever the police shoot someone anywhere other than in the leg the moaning twats will all sing in chrous, "but they shot Graeme Burton in the leg".

Unfortunately so.


One has to ask how poor the officers shooting is since you are trained to shoot at CoM are you not?

Didn't realise you were there. Can you provide us with a detailed account of the event, you know, light conditions, background behind the officers aim point, position of the suspect, time in which the officer had to make a decision. Thanks in advance.

[sAsLEX]

Didn't realise you were there. Can you provide us with a detailed account of the event, you know, light conditions, background behind the officers aim point, position of the suspect, time in which the officer had to make a decision. Thanks in advance.

No.

I was providing another view point some may take.

He was shot and apprehended, gold star to the cops on this one.

[onearmedbandit]

Ahh sorry mate, was taking the piss really. Just your use of the word 'poor' pricked my ears! Didn't realise you meant it as 'someone elses' viewpoint.

[doc]

Isn't it great having a Democracy.
Now the police have to prove it was him cos he is innocent until "beyond resonable doubt"
Legal aid I guess
He will probably never be released.
Our cost I guess

I'm only basing all this on the fact the media did get it right. They were probably hard on heels of the poor coppers with live cam stuff which is probably why the copper couldn't get a second shot in. Maybe it was the coppers fault because he will now be under investigation that he did everything right.

[spudchucka]

One has to ask how poor the officers shooting is since you are trained to shoot at CoM are you not?

Yes we are.

Maybe he was break dancing at the time, doing a headspin or something cool like that.

[Lou Girardin]

Isn't it great having a Democracy.
Now the police have to prove it was him cos he is innocent until "beyond resonable doubt"


You'd prefer 'guilty because a cop says so'?

[doc]

You'd prefer 'guilty because a cop says so'?
Hell yes in this case he Burton was basically caught in the act, prior history blah blah etc etc. You have to allow the copper on the scene to use his insticts. I would have considered this a "shoot to kill" situation , but we are only talking about after the case sort of like reality TV easy to judge from the comfort of the keyboard and only having the info the media has fed us, Basically there are times you have to allow the coppers the use of "Ultimate force" They guy had killed one person in his life time shouldn't have been allowed a second chance and had that made aware to him on his release, fuck up again and we shoot to kill . Well thats how I feel about it I may be wrong but I don't support any leniency in this case.

[Lou Girardin]

Hell yes in this case he Burton was basically caught in the act, prior history blah blah etc etc. You have to allow the copper on the scene to use his insticts. I would have considered this a "shoot to kill" situation , but we are only talking about after the case sort of like reality TV easy to judge from the comfort of the keyboard and only having the info the media has fed us, Basically there are times you have to allow the coppers the use of "Ultimate force" They guy had killed one person in his life time shouldn't have been allow a second chance and had that made aware to him on his release, fuck up again and we shoot to kill . Well thats how I feel about it I may be wrong but I don't support any leniency in this case.

I fail to see what you are complaining about. The cop shot him and I'm damn sure he didn't aim for his leg. Sheer luck for Mr Scumbag.
As for allowing cops to inflict a death sentence at their discretion, I'm sure you will find several countries where this happens to be more to your liking.

[doc]

I fail to see what you are complaining about. The cop shot him and I'm damn sure he didn't aim for his leg. Sheer luck for Mr Scumbag.
As for allowing cops to inflict a death sentence at their discretion, I'm sure you will find several countries where this happens to be more to your liking.

I'm basically disappointed that there wasn't another shot. How many did they use on Wallace in Waitara and he was only breaking windows

[onearmedbandit]

You'd prefer 'guilty because a cop says so'?

It's what happens when we get identified as speeding even though there may be reason for doubt (other traffic etc).

[Hitcher]

How many did they use on Wallace in Waitara and he was only breaking windows

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. Constable X feared for his life and fired in self-defence. Burton's case sounds a bit like "attempted-suicide by Police bullet".

[Lou Girardin]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. Constable X feared for his life and fired in self-defence.

Sure he did. All THREE cops feared for their lives.

[RT527]

I sometimes wish there really was a God who burned people for all eternity, but I don't believe that sadly.
So what's the solution?

Longer sentences...?
Therapy for prisoners...?
Thousands more police and more power for them...?
Compulsory parenting classes...?
The death penalty...?
Sharia law...?
Religion in schools...?

I got an Idea....The Parole Board people should be Held responsible for anyone they let go early..Sought of like a Bond...If the parolee gets let out early and Fucks up then any costs associated with his re-offending or Re-Capture should be placed squarely on the shoulders of those who let him/her out....

Bet we wouldnt see very many let out then???!!!.

This guys re-offending would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in Police man hours,ambulance(victims), costs of hospital for victims,therapy, funeral for deceased, it goes on.

If he sees the light of day again someone should pay.

[MD]

I've said this before but each time this happens nothing ever happens to the incompetent parole board. They are not identified and made to answer for their, unbelievable at times, incompetence. They know their decisions directly endanger the public so they should be held accountable. If a doctor scews up they face serious repercusions and public naming & shaming.
This case sounds like another example of the Parole Board aiding and abetting a known criminal. Such incompetence would not be tolerated in other jobs. I wish the Police could lay charges against these dickheads who decided he was just fine and dandy and deserved to be let loose on us.
Just how a big a neon sign do they need screaming out that his past actions prove he is a totally out of control murderous creep.
EDit- now I see RT527 just beat me to it above

[RT527]

Should've been a chest or head shot. You could almost be 100% certain there would've been no crying over that. Now we pay for his hospital treatment, his trial, and his sky tv and underfloor heating for the rest of his life. Fucking scum does not deserve to breath the same air I do. If he was a dog, he'd be put down. But he's lower than a dog, so we keep him alive. Fucked up imo.

The cop would have been aiming for Centre of mass Ie chest area.

The fact that he hit him at all is amazing given how small the bullet is and the propensity for the bullet to leave the barrel any way but dead straight.
Glocks are good weapons but are very unforgiving the faster you fire ...as are all weapons due to lack of heat dissapation the barrels of rifles are worse.

he should have been aiming around about, just behind his left ear....from around 5 feet then he might have hit him in the chest...or the bullet left the barrel dead straight and no more mr burton!!!.

[Skyryder]

There needs to be a sentencing option for judges like they have in America.

LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE. That gives the best of both options. If there is a miscarriage of jusatice at least some semblance of compensation can occur, and life without parole is just as effective for keeping some of these @#%&* (there 'aint' no word for this fucker) out of society.

No one has said what leg this @#%&* has been hit. Just hope it's the middle one and hope the surgeons have gone on holiday.

Skyryder

[sAsLEX]

No one has said what leg this @#%&* has been hit. Just hope it's the middle one and hope the surgeons have gone on holiday.

Skyryder

Well they must of since its taken a day to get to surgery.... not that I am complaining about him suffering a bit more!

[riffer]

There needs to be a sentencing option for judges like they have in America.

LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE.


One can only hope and pray that when and if he eventually is found guilty of murder, as well as a raft of other charges, that the judge uses common sense and awards the highest possible sentence that he can in this country - preventive detention.

Killing him won't bring Paul back. :mellow:

[spudchucka]

Sure he did. All THREE cops feared for their lives.

One of them I know quite well and they are still dealing with the shit stain Wallace left on their life.

Only one cop fired a shot, whats your point regarding the other two?

[candor]

Murder - most bargain it down to m/s don't they? Cut to the chase and just shoot the parole board. Truth in sentencing what is so hard about that. I'm not impressed my mums killer, a 4x dui offender on P / pot / benzos and opiates got 2 yrs which means automatic release after a third.

And that the parole board wrote to us 3 mths later asking if we'd mind if he was released for xmas (before the 1/3rd) after just 4 months odd - on home detention. They said he was high risk for re-offending but that it was not a serious crime tho tragically it had been offending perchance "associated with a death". Scusey - HE KILLED, it did not just happen coincidentally.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SHOOT THEM. SHOOT THEM SHOOT THEM SHOOT THEM SHOOT THEM pleeeeeese

Cases like this get headlines cos of the drama but repeat DUI offenders do almost no time and cause numerous repeat preventable homicides as a result. Only its not counted. No connection between intent to drive impaired and violent consequences in parole boards mind, they are EVIL. A 12x repeat dui offende given license back other day.

I hope this latest F up atop of the still proceeding prosecution or civil case re RSA prompts a sacking of these incompetents and also - the govt should get its Ass kicked out. END OF RANT. And did I say SHOOT THEM. Aaaaaal of them. It would be for the best.

[candor]

They know their decisions directly endanger the public so they should be held accountable. If a doctor scews up they face serious repercusions and public naming & shaming.
This case sounds like another example of the Parole Board aiding and abetting a known criminal. I wish the Police could lay charges against these dickheads who decided he was just fine and dandy and deserved to be let loose on us.
EDit- now I see RT527 just beat me to it above

Well said. I'm divided as to whether they are complete bleeding heart freaks with no brains or as to whether they are like the people that helped process Jews in Nazi days (diffusion of responsibility - "I'm just a link in the system and not responsible) or whether some of them are sadistic psychopaths mad on power who get gratuitious enjoyment from wreaking havoc. Whatever the case each member needs its head examined for accessorising.

[Steam]

I knew a guy at highschool named Graeme Burton. (not related.) I didn't like him, bet he's spewing now! haha!

[doc]

I got an Idea....The Parole Board people should be Held responsible for anyone they let go early..Sought of like a Bond...If the parolee gets let out early and Fucks up then any costs associated with his re-offending or Re-Capture should be placed squarely on the shoulders of those who let him/her out....

Bet we wouldnt see very many let out then???!!!.

This guys re-offending would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in Police man hours,ambulance(victims), costs of hospital for victims,therapy, funeral for deceased, it goes on.

If he sees the light of day again someone should pay.

Accountablity don't start me on this.

Parole board covering cost of legal aid if they are wrong

Politicians for lowering the drinking age

whatever fuckwit party that is responsible for the PC bullshit

Lawyers for accepting money for lost cause rights

The Greens right idea about the planet but leave social engineering out of it

Arm the fuckin police ( Gives them more respect when they pull you over, maybe pre Christmas three boy racers might still be alive.

Hey we can all be hypocrites afterwards.

[James Deuce]

Accountablity don't start me on this.

Politicians for lowering the drinking age

whatever fuckwit party that is responsible for the PC bullshit



Before making sweeping statements like that always remember we get what we vote for.

[doc]

Before making sweeping statements like that always remember we get what we vote for.
I know I know, but they are only our friends from the period the election is anounced to the day of the result. People still believe Saddam (I'm hoping he really did have a double then we can do it again)

[Lou Girardin]

One of them I know quite well and they are still dealing with the shit stain Wallace left on their life.

Only one cop fired a shot, whats your point regarding the other two?

My point is, why could three cops not subdue one man?
But let's not rehash this all over again.

[doc]

My point is, why could three cops not subdue one man?
But let's not rehash this all over again.

Probably because of OSH

[sAsLEX]

Before making sweeping statements like that always remember we get what we vote for.

No we get what the majority vote for.

[Toaster]

Stalin murdering 15 million people is surely a greater crime than (for instance) The Dover raping one goat .

I thought the goat gave wanted it baaaaad?

[oldrider]

You can go to their site here http://www.paroleboard.govt.nz/nzpb/index.htmland give em your thoughts on this subject if you wish. I have..

Thank you for posting that Bruce, I was wondering where to go to find out something about this parole board business.

I notice there is a whole lot of information about what they can do but absolutely nothing about accountability for their decisions!

All care and no responsibility, it seems the adage "That what gets measured gets done" doesn't apply to these people!

Some one on here asked me if I had statistics to back up my statement in a previous post, that they (the parole board) seem to get it wrong more often than they get it right, well you don't usually have statistics when you suggest that it "seems" to be so!

I was looking for some statistical info from their site but it doesn't look as if they publish those sorts of measures on there. Correct me if I am wrong.

I will do as you have done and at least E-mail them for a start. Cheers John.

[Toaster]

My point is, why could three cops not subdue one man?
But let's not rehash this all over again.

Lou, dude..... to be fair on the cops, none of us know the facts and weren't there. I have heard that he presented a firearm at police.... that is plenty reason to shoot him on the basis you believe yours/anothers life is in imminent danger. Or maybe you'd rather cops waited to find out if he mean't business and let him fire at them first just to be sure he wasn't just kidding around?

If you can subdue an armed man without using a firearm against another firearm, you be sure to let the police know how they should do their job properly dude.

[James Deuce]

No we get what the majority vote for.

No, we don't.

We do NOT know how to use MMP. It isn't a majority system at all. We continually manage to avoid anything like strategic voting, because that would take a bit of political nouse and organisation, and maybe voting for a party you don't like and a local candidate you do.

We get what we get because a good bunch of the voters waste the two votes they have.

[sAsLEX]

My point is, why could three cops not subdue one man?
But let's not rehash this all over again.

You ever gone up against a P'd (or whatever he was likely to be on) person? Or even a mental? Those of not sound mind can often be immensely strong and impossible for a few people to hold down.

There was footage on the news once of a cop absolutely putting his full force, not a small chap either, into swinging his Asp baton at a Mongrel Mob dudes back and the guy was carrying on like nothing was happening.


If they had had a Tazer?

[sAsLEX]

No, we don't.



well shut my mouth

[Lou Girardin]

Lou, dude..... to be fair on the cops, none of us know the facts and weren't there. I have heard that he presented a firearm at police.... that is plenty reason to shoot him on the basis you believe yours/anothers life is in imminent danger. Or maybe you'd rather cops waited to find out if he mean't business and let him fire at them first just to be sure he wasn't just kidding around?

If you can subdue an armed man without using a firearm against another firearm, you be sure to let the police know how they should do their job properly dude.

We were discussing Steven Wallace, not Burton. I'm all in favour of them shooting Burton.

[Lou Girardin]

You ever gone up against a P'd (or whatever he was likely to be on) person? Or even a mental? Those of not sound mind can often be immensely strong and impossible for a few people to hold down.



We didn't have 'P' in my day. But I'm fairly short and had to take down a fuckin' huge Samoan once.
Thank God for Maglites.

[oldrider]

Really? Got stats to back that up? I'm betting the ones they get right never make the news, and there are probably far more of them.

Richard

No, the only information I have is what has been reported in one media or another.
I did say that it "seems" they get it wrong more often than they get it right!
I tried to find out some real info but wasn't doing too good until Terbang posted the parole board Webb site, still couldn't get much off there but will have another look later.

Your counter comment would have more relativity if I had claimed it as a "fact"!

Do you have any statistical information on the success or failure of the parole board actions or decisions? cheers John.

[candor]

Checked oldriders link. Here is one defining who the parole boards gits are - and its mostly those wiggy blonde bimbos - flakey judiciary;

http://www.lawyermeup.co.nz/afa.asp?idWebPage=26957&CATID=1&SUBID=31&ID=123&SID=107853708&productdetails.html

Statistics on Oldriders page show round 3000 on home detention, round 3000 on parole - which is half the current prison population odd. An equal number was declined during that year (could be same people that made it on later applications though).

The Government is looking at a big loosening up with more restorative Justice per a recent conference. Despite the pioneer ogf RJ being a convicted sex offender. It also seems to be trying to kill off the sensible sentencing Trust's lonely voice of sanity eg with new charities law. Media has been ridiculing McVicar lately. NZers imo need to start jumping up and down on this eg donate to sensible sentencing who work like slaves on limited resources - or its more of the same. Powers that be prolly live in gated communities or leave once feathered nests. They don't care about our safety, the violence here is giving us a really bad name overseas & I reckon it could kill our economy.

As a psyc nurse I've had to work alone in community housing with particularly one released very dangerous random murderer - wrongly assessed as safe. He hangs out unsupervised in a park popular with kids in NW Christchurch. I am afraid at times and feel sorry for the community. Many situations exist like this.

[Hitcher]

The Government has to look at other options, as building more prisons is both expensive and ineffective. New Zealand has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world, often for comparatively trivial offences -- such as minor crimes against property. Parole can be an effective form of rehabilitation, and recidivist nongs like Mr Burton should not be used as an excuse to condemn the whole parole "system".

[Swoop]

Remember the USS Cole...... no reason that sort of thing couldn't happen in Devonport.

???
Absolutely NO chance of anything like that happening here... the terrorists would never be granted a resource consent!

[Mom]

Now the police have to prove it was him cos he is innocent until "beyond resonable doubt"


One word the annoys me from time to time is "allegedly"

The suspect "allegedly" punched the victim in the head.......camera shot shows poor "victim" bleeding profusely from his nose......hmmmmm i guess someone else could have punched him

[Hitcher]

One word the annoys me from time to time is "allegedly"

One thing that annoys me from time to time is people leaping to conclusions. Unless you saw it happen, of course it must be "allegedly", until proven. The guy could have fallen over or smacked himself in the head.

[candor]

problem is abuse of prison facilities. Judges are concerned about capitalism so imprison tghieves but not the violent imo. Examples - a friends EX bashes her unconscious in front of their toddlers. He gets 50 hrs community service. He steals a car and gets 6 mths jail. She is now a prison worker!

Example 2 - a bankrobber I know is paroled, he bashes someone outside nightclub in chancery lane with a baseball bat for no good reason - charged with male asaults female. Not recalled! He does several more worrrying things suggesting he may be dangerous - not recalled. As I hear the saga with many such episodes unfold for over a year (from mutual acquaintance)my eyebrows raise higher and higher. This guy just did the pak and save ARMED robbery in CHCH - ?100 g odd not recovered. NOW he is inside - but actually not for too long because the squeeze is on now more than eve in his 20 yr crime career. Sorry L if you're reading this - but just making a point OK.

[gammaguy]

how about they put him in a cell with the parole officer who let him out?

[Ixion]

The Government has to look at other options, as building more prisons is both expensive and ineffective. New Zealand has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world, often for comparatively trivial offences -- such as minor crimes against property. Parole can be an effective form of rehabilitation, and recidivist nongs like Mr Burton should not be used as an excuse to condemn the whole parole "system".

Why not? Proof of the pudding etc.

And if prisons are expensive? Bullets are cheap. Ropes even cheaper, cos you can reuse it. And please define "minor property crimes". Like burglary maybe? I know of old ladies , not a mile from here who have been burgled. Yeah yeah, property crime, no crime at all, nothing of value taken.

No, just the memories of a lifetime, peace of mind, the sense of place of being safe in homes they'd lived in for a lifetime. Two of them, don't sleep now at night, they stay awake, terrifed of every noise. At an age when they should be entitled to security and safety they have none. Minor property crime ? Too right. Give me a gun and the bastards who perpetrate "minor property crime" and the incarceration rate will be solved. Minor property criminal, meet Mr Minor Bullet. I'd not have a moments hesitation. I loath those bastards with all my being.

As for parole boards, I have never heard any good argument about why we have parole at all. Can *anyone* give a good reason why X years inside should not mean X years inside. Unless the criminal causes trouble inside, in which case its X + Y + Z years inside. and repeat until he dies of old age.

[Hitcher]

You're starting to sound like that seething redneck spokesperson from the "Sensible Sentencing Trust". I have little respect for people like Mr McVicar who have nothing constructive to add to the debate apart from tired rhetoric like "hanging's too good for them" or "lock them up and throw away the key". If only life was so black and white.

[candor]

I believe he simply takes an extreme stance in order to achieve moderate goals. Politics - people don't always mean what they say - it's goal oriented and necessarily manipulative isn't it? McVics statements don't define him, they're just words! I reckon he has respect for crims - simply wants a world with some standards. And he does have constructive ideas - why else would he bother doing study tours of other countries which have working systems that reduce recidivism.

Maybe Hitcher you are lucky enough to have never met evil or sociopathic people. They exist - we are not all the same. If you had it might change your view. And for some of them the happiest place they know is inside - it therefore works for all parties!

[Dadpole]

I believe he simply takes an extreme stance in order to achieve moderate goals. Politics - people don't always mean what they say - it's goal oriented and necessarily manipulative isn't it?

So we just assume he is simply a crap-spouting political animal and ignore him?

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921062a10.html

Uniforms got him and they opened up from 20-25m away. That is some fine shooting.

Poor bugger on the quad bike.

FWIW, Hitcher is on the money. Yes candor there are people who could be regarded as sociopaths, but unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done.

Parole board's operate under a set of strictures the same way the courts do. It isn't a case of, "aww, he looks nice today, let's let him out", at all. The parole board may have wanted to keep him in, but are ultimately limited by the original sentence. The judge is also limited by law in regard to the sentence that he could have dished out. At the time this loony went down, there were no minimum non-parole periods available to judges.

[Ixion]

You're starting to sound like that seething redneck spokesperson from the "Sensible Sentencing Trust". I have little respect for people like Mr McVicar who have nothing constructive to add to the debate apart from tired rhetoric like "hanging's too good for them" or "lock them up and throw away the key". If only life was so black and white.
No. I am simply a Benthamite.

If there is any function that someone may fufill to add worth or value to society, if their presence in society , overall, is a contribution, well and good. Otherwise, I see no reason why their continued existence should be justified. If they are worthless (and I would challenge anyone to argue that Mr Burton was not), but they can remove themselves from society by going somewhere else, well and good. They are gone, society is better for their absence . If they will not remove themselves , then they should be removed. If no other country will take them on, then they need to be eliminated.

No person has any inherent right to existence. We justify our place in society by the contirbution we make to it.

If a person or animal is plagued by parasites , we use drugs to kill the parasites. I see no reason why those who are parasites on society should not be treated in the same way.

I challenge you to provide one good, objective reason why Mr Burton should remain in our society.

[Ixion]

Yes candor there are people who could be regarded as sociopaths, but unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose.,,

That sounds like the emotive crap about people in Victorian England being hung for stealing a loaf of bread (never happened).

Can you supply ANY reference to a 17 year old (or any age for that matter) being sent to gaol , let alone hung, for stealing milk money.

[candor]

"unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done".

Not sure where u got that idea I'd string up milk money takers Jim. I got a whole post there saying that jails are full of the wrong people (petty crims) while the dangerous ones too often are 'given a chance'. Nor would I string up sociopaths - just keep them seperate and comfortable, for all our safety is good :yes: . Have worked with too many of them in my job to be happy about sharing the outside world with them.

This a**hole and several others lately who went on rampages were from all appearances both mad and bad. Any fool with a bunch of reports shoulda seen that it was
A) best not release if at all possible (but as you say Burton went in when conditions were different it seems)
B) release only under very close supervision and pull back in at any bad sign
I hope Burton has killed this time in a way that the special class of murder applies... hmm - includes I think "vulnerable people, cop killing, extreme cruelty" and a few more categories. And earns a long stay.

Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 30 yrs of age did something a little silly.

He was on medication for a mental illness and fine on it. But a bit weird off (obviously). He missed his medicine for a week. Went a bit funny. Impulsively stole a bottle of cheap 5$ wine - chardon. A Maori. In chch years ago. From our workplace several were allowed to go to court to support and as we had not much doing.

What a shock. :shit: His first offense (and last) - 6 weeks jail. :bye: I think he was out in half was the deal back then. It was insane. And he got no medicine in there so climbed the walls - plus got a hard time. Being gay - lucky he survived (just). The system sux, its all back to front with things valued over people.

[candor]

"unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done".

Not sure where u got that idea I'd string up milk money takers Jim. I got a whole post there saying that jails are full of the wrong people (petty crims) while the dangerous ones too often are 'given a chance'. Nor would I string up sociopaths - just keep them seperate and comfortable, for all our safety is good :yes: . Have worked with too many of them in my job to be happy about sharing the outside world with them.

This a**hole and several others lately who went on rampages were from all appearances both mad and bad. Any fool with a bunch of reports shoulda seen that it was
A) best not release if at all possible (but as you say Burton went in when conditions were different it seems)
B) release only under very close supervision and pull back in at any bad sign
I hope Burton has killed this time in a way that the special class of murder applies... hmm - includes I think "vulnerable people, cop killing, extreme cruelty" and a few more categories. And earns a long stay.

Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 3 yrs of age did something a little silly.

He was on medication for a mental illness and fine on it. But a bit weird off (obviously). He missed his medicine for a week. Went a bit funny. Impulsively stole a bottle of red wine. A Maori. In chch years ago. From our workplace several were allowed to go to court to support and as we had not much doing.

What a shock. :shit: His first offense (and last) - 6 weeks jail. :bye: I think he was out in half was the deal back then. It was insane. And he got no medicine in there so climbed the walls - plus got a hard time. Being gay - lucky he survived (just). The system sux, its all back to front with things valued over people.

[Ixion]

,,
Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 30 yrs of age did something a little silly.

,,

Oh, I quite agree. Once again, my test is the overall utility of the person. Someone who is 30 years old, and holding down a job, has almost certainy made a significant positive contribution to society already. And the circumstances would sound such that it would be pointless and counterproductive to remove him from it (whether by imprisonment or otherwise). Moreover the cause of the offending is apparent and very readily remedied, after which a further future contribution may be expected.

One could hardly call such a person worthless. Social utility would argue that the best benefit from society is had by taking no action over the immediate offence (apart from restitution to the owner), and ensuring that the person concerned takes his medication in future.

But people like Mr Burton are quite another matter.

[pixc]

I challenge you to provide one good, objective reason why Mr Burton should remain in our society.

Ive said this before. He is of use to our society as a guinea pig. First you mark him. An identifier. Maybe a tattoo on forehead or even take his nose off. Then you put him and others like him onto an island prison/lab. Then you give him a disease and test cures on him. He has lost his right to play with the rest of our society.

[elle-f]

i agree, he has lost his right to play with the rest of society but he also lost that the last time as well.

[Dafe]

I wish we had a Death Row..........

That would save this Government enough money to at least introduce another labour anti-discipline policy - Maybe no raising your voice at children.

Or maybe the jails need Saunas units installed to complement their recent underfloor heating installations.

This country needs a mercenary, I recommend Darkman!

[riffer]

Ive said this before. He is of use to our society as a guinea pig. First you mark him. An identifier. Maybe a tattoo on forehead or even take his nose off. Then you put him and others like him onto an island prison/lab. Then you give him a disease and test cures on him. He has lost his right to play with the rest of our society.


What a shame. He lost his leg (http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921702a10.html). Is that enough for you?

[Finn]

A change of Government would be a good start. Then bring in the electric chair... in schools. "Sorry Mrs Burton, little Graeme won't be coming home from school today."

[Lou Girardin]

This may shock some, but having read a report on the cops actions who shot Burton, I think they should be honoured for their courage.
it seems they initially backed off when confronted by him, but when they considered the danger if he'd got hold of their rifle/s from their car, they decided to confront him and prevent further risk to the public. Very brave guys to face a shotgun while armed with pistols.

[imdying]

Oooooh, I hope they chopped that pricks leg off because they could, or because they couldn't be bothered trying to save him, or because they thought he was a piece of shit getting what he deserved, instead of because of some vital medical reason.

Nothing would make me happier right now than knowing that piece of crap is crippled purely because people know how much of a waste of space he his and wanted to royally fuck his life up, and not because it had to be done.

I'm glad they didn't shoot him in the head, now he has a lifetime of suffering as a man in wheelchair to look forward too. Only by chopping his opposite arm off could it get any better.

[pixc]

What a shame. He lost his leg (http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921702a10.html). Is that enough for you?

no. It prolly cost $20000 to do the job. Waste of our money

[sAsLEX]

This may shock some, but having read a report on the cops actions who shot Burton, I think they should be honoured for their courage.
it seems they initially backed off when confronted by him, but when they considered the danger if he'd got hold of their rifle/s from their car, they decided to confront him and prevent further risk to the public. Very brave guys to face a shotgun while armed with pistols.

Care to share the report?

Why though did they back off in the first place it has to be asked? They where going after a armed and dangerous criminal and decided after retreating that he was dangerous?And why did they only have their pistols and not the bushmasters they had in the car?

-someone has to play the devils advocate.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921062a10.html

Uniforms got him and they opened up from 20-25m away. That is some fine shooting.



Report said the were general duties, how often do they get to "play" with weapons? Not often is my guess.

[Hitcher]

Maybe Hitcher you are lucky enough to have never met evil or sociopathic people. They exist - we are not all the same. If you had it might change your view. And for some of them the happiest place they know is inside - it therefore works for all parties!

I'm not denying that evil people exist who should be lock away indefinitely for their own and society's best interest. But like many things in life we're talking about a bell-curve distribution. Folks like Mr Burton are clearly at one extreme end of that curve, but it makes little sense to engineer a system that treats all offenders as though they are three standard deviations from the mean.

[Paul in NZ]

I have no problem if people want to be useless cunts and waste their whole lives. I’m even moderately happy for them to be on the dole as long as they keep their hands to themselves. The can even lay about in bus lanes (the blanket man) whacked out on plonk and grooving to their ipods for all I care.

However, useless (deleted) like this prick that have now ruined a whole lot of decent peoples lives can never make good on their deeds and need to be put down. It need not be a stage show like Saddams hanging but it needs to be done never the less. It’s not revenge – it’s just common sense.

Throwing people inside jails is a last resort BUT petty crime is only petty to those who have not been assaulted or robbed of their goods. I’m not going to insert examples here but good peoples lives can be ruined by so called ‘petty’ crime. Screw that….

The root of the problem (well one root anyway) is the systemic belief that all criminals are redeemable and all 'patients' with mental problems can be returned into society eventually. It is the vanity of humanity that we can fix everything when patently we cannot. The resources that go into rehabilitating these truely dangerous people is an utter waste, completely pointless and will only ever result in the eventual harm of the innocent. I also find it odd that so much effort goes into it when relatively minor problems cannot be supported or assisted.

Our society needs to start taking responsibility for ourselves. The current open slather system is not sustainable long term as too many people are actively preying on the incapable and reducing them to the level where this so called petty crime is the only answer.

I'd rather cease all effort in supporting the really bad via a quick termination and the resources going into helping the petty and stupid.

Politicians? They won’t help ‘cos they earn enough to afford bigger fences and better security and they need to be popular to get voted in next session. We muppets only get to vote on the options they give us and those options are always less than perfect and very carefully constructed to achieve a certain result.

Bah!

[Hitcher]

This may shock some, but having read a report on the cops actions who shot Burton, I think they should be honoured for their courage.

Lou, are you feeling unwell, or has somebody else hacked into your login?

[James Deuce]

Just so you guys know, this guy is the shit that burgled us twice in the early 90s and whom I had to defend myself from with a very hefty cymbal stand, and couldn't get the 5-0 to turn up at the house despite being cornered by someone twice my size. I'm fairly certain I broke his arm.

I pleased to see the real "candor" isn't the foaming redneck he was painting himself to be. Eh, mate? :)

[James Deuce]

That sounds like the emotive crap about people in Victorian England being hung for stealing a loaf of bread (never happened).

Can you supply ANY reference to a 17 year old (or any age for that matter) being sent to gaol , let alone hung, for stealing milk money.

6 weeks for a kid I worked with. Sent to borstal as it was then. No I'm not naming names.

[sAsLEX]

Just so you guys know, this guy is the shit that burgled us twice in the early 90s and whom I had to defend myself from with a very hefty cymbal stand, and couldn't get the 5-0 to turn up at the house despite being cornered by someone twice my size. I'm fairly certain I broke his arm.

I pleased to see the real "candor" isn't the foaming redneck he was painting himself to be. Eh, mate? :)




Surprised they didn't do you for assault.......

[scumdog]

Surprised they didn't do you for assault.......

Hmmm, sAsLEX is on fire today!!!

What's wrong? Not enough sleep? Have a bad run in with the Law?


Chill-out dude or you'll have a meltdown. :yes:

[scumdog]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921062a10.html

Uniforms got him and they opened up from 20-25m away. That is some fine shooting.

Poor bugger on the quad bike.

They showed more resraint than I would have in the circumstances - (either that or he fell to the ground whimpering like a nancy-boy when he was hit), if he was still moving and had access to ANY weapon I would have still deemed him to be a threat, already shot or not.

What a piece of shit that Burton is, best place for him is in the bottom of a well-used offal pit....

[Crasherfromwayback]

What a piece of shit that Burton is, best place for him is in the bottom of a well-used offal pit....

Yeah it's just a crying shame that when they amputated his leg, they didn't take it off at the neck!

[Finn]

Just so you guys know, this guy is the shit that burgled us twice in the early 90s and whom I had to defend myself from with a very hefty cymbal stand, and couldn't get the 5-0 to turn up at the house despite being cornered by someone twice my size. I'm fairly certain I broke his arm.

I pleased to see the real "candor" isn't the foaming redneck he was painting himself to be. Eh, mate? :)




Jesus Jim. Now, had you owned a firearm back then, you could have done us all a favour and finished the guy off. If not dead, then a six pack would have stopped him from his crime spree.

Well done.

[Finn]

Yeah it's just a crying shame that when they amputated his leg, they didn't take it off at the neck!

If the cops (not the 18 years old ones - but the real old grumpy ones like Scumdog) were given proper firearms they could of got a head shot.

[James Deuce]

I tell you that Glock 18 with the 50 rnd mag, the laser sight, and the bipod, is looking more attractive all the time.

And that Benelli shotgun.

[Finn]

I tell you that Glock 18 with the 50 rnd mag, the laser sight, and the bipod, is looking more attractive all the time.

And that Benelli shotgun.


Too heavy and awkward for close combat. The Glock by itself will do fine. Just add bullets.

[Finn]

I'm not denying that evil people exist who should be lock away indefinitely for their own and society's best interest.

I have an ex just like this.

[Crasherfromwayback]

If the cops (not the 18 years old ones - but the real old grumpy ones like Scumdog) were given proper firearms they could of got a head shot.

Yeah...or even something like my 12g o/u....pretty hard to miss

[Finn]

Yeah...or even something like my 12g o/u....pretty hard to miss

Perhaps, if the perpetrator was a duck.

[imdying]

best place for him is in the bottom of a well-used offal pit....Waste of a perfectly good offal pit :no:

Just let him die on the ground where he fell :yes:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Perhaps, if the perpetrator was a duck.

Dunno mate....from about 6 inches away that'd make his head look like a duck!:Punk:

[scumdog]

Dunno mate....from about 6 inches away that'd make his head look like a duck!:Punk:

But Burton was 25 or so METRES away

It would still have smarted a bit getting hit by a load of no.4's at that range though.

U/O's - only two shots, too slow to load and you can't fire it in mid reload like an auto or pump.

But ideal for ducks and trap-shooting.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But ideal for ducks and trap-shooting.

Which is exactly what I use it for......and exactly why it would've had to have been six inches away to acheive my desired effect on that twat!
Something I would've had no hestitation in doing....I pity you guys in the force when your hands are tied.....like....wouldn't it have been a 'pity' if the officers involved accidently had their glocks discharge while that sausage was rolling round on the ground......but so not worth the trouble they'd end up in....tis a sad world....

[MSTRS]

Terrence Thompson comes to mind...a much better outcome all round. Would seem that only cop-killers get treated correctly.

[Toaster]

We were discussing Steven Wallace, not Burton. I'm all in favour of them shooting Burton.

Excellent.

[jrandom]

I tell you that Glock 18 with the 50 rnd mag, the laser sight, and the bipod, is looking more attractive all the time.

Glock don't sell the model 18 to civilians, AFAIK. For that matter, I'd rather have an MP5.

Mrs Fish just brought to my attention the fact that this discussion is being mirrored over at vorb.co.nz. Scary times for mountainbikers; makes the practice of 'carrying' on forest rides seem a little less crazy, doesn't it?

My Chinook always travels in a jersey pocket on the pushie, both MTB and road. You just never know.

Respect, by the way, for walloping that guy with the cymbal stand. I hope it didn't get scratched or bent.

[James Deuce]

I was shit scared and lashed out with the nearest thing to hand. Early '90s Pearl extendable boom stands were made of steel and the boom counter balance was a lump of painted iron.

[RC1]

has had his leg taken off http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10418120

[jrandom]

I was shit scared and lashed out with the nearest thing to hand.

Nup, I don't think I'd like to be on the wrong end of a five-foot steel-and-iron mace with your weight behind it. Nicely done.

If you don't mind sharing, I'd be very interested to hear a bit more about that incident. What time of day or night did it happen? What were the circumstances? Who else was in the house? What was the eventual outcome? Did your approach to personal security change as a result of it?

[ManDownUnder]

has had his leg taken off http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10418120

Hopefully balls and all....

[RC1]

and now we are supposed to feel sorry for him http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10418164

[jrandom]

and now we are supposed to feel sorry for him...

ROFL. Jesus motherfucking Christ. The system failed him, did it? I suppose someone had to say that at some point.

The only thing proven by Burton's release and subsequent rampage is that there really is such a thing as 'evil'. I haven't seen the slightest suggestion that he was in any way mentally impaired.

[James Deuce]

Nup, I don't think I'd like to be on the wrong end of a five-foot steel-and-iron mace with your weight behind it. Nicely done.

If you don't mind sharing, I'd be very interested to hear a bit more about that incident. What time of day or night did it happen? What were the circumstances? Who else was in the house? What was the eventual outcome? Did your approach to personal security change as a result of it?

We got cleaned out while we were both at work. Everything went. They didn't get what they wanted because Heather was wearing it to work - her Nursing medal. They wanted it to be able to access a Hospital Pharmacy. The only thing we had left was cutlery, plates, my drum kit, and the large furniture items, most of our clothes were strewn through the house. Most everything else went, though I did recover some CDs from a 2nd hand book shop. Who got done for receiving. They hadn't even tried to remove name and address from inside the covers. I then realised I was telegraphing the fact that I had CDs and books by putting name and address in them.

The landlord put up bars on the windows that ran down the blind alley up the back of the house.

They came back a month later and stole the stereo out of the car. Then they came back the next week, the bars thwarted them and they tried to come in through the front door. I got a good look and rang 111. No one available. The dude tried to break the lock open with a jimmy bar and then came into the house. I was home with Heather and fight or flight took over, and I launched myself at the dude. He was fekking enormous. He dropped the jimmy bar and ran off when the stand connected on a back swing and the fingerprints got him convicted of all three events. No mention was ever made of my self-defence. The prints from the first burglary and the car break in matched the the third event.

He'd been following Heather to and from work, I think.

We moved out within a month of the last one.

My attitude hasn't changed. You do what you can, but I don't sleep with a baseball bat next to the bed or anything.

What has changed is that we make sure we leave curtains open when we go away, and put a light in the garage on a timer, and get a mate to patrol the lawn for empty beer bottles and to pick up the mail. We also try to avoid routine in anything that involves leaving the house.

[James Deuce]

ROFL. Jesus motherfucking Christ. The system failed him, did it? I suppose someone had to say that at some point.

The only thing proven by Burton's release and subsequent rampage is that there really is such a thing as 'evil'. I haven't seen the slightest suggestion that he was in any way mentally impaired.

Drug enhanced more like.

[jrandom]

The dude tried to break the lock open with a jimmy bar and then came into the house. I was home with Heather and fight or flight took over, and I launched myself at the dude. He was fekking enormous. He dropped the jimmy bar and ran off when the stand connected on a back swing... You do what you can, but I don't sleep with a baseball bat next to the bed or anything.

What a thoroughly awful thing to have had to deal with.

Your lack of subsequent paranoia is commendable.

[yungatart]

So now they have amputated his leg..pushed some poor old guy in desperate need of a hip replacement out of his bed, to do it no doubt. Not only do I pay for his legal aid, trial expenses, incarceration.. but now through ACC, I will contribute to a permanent disability payout for the rest of his natural also.... while kids born with a disability get sweet f a and schools suffer lack of funding to employ teacher aides....
Seems all fair and just to me.. NOT!

[Squeak the Rat]

His shooting shouldn't be covered by ACC - it wasn't an accident. Instead he should be forced to do some meaningless work for his existence. No leg? We'll give you 5 cents for every time you kick that waist high red circle on the wall. No kick no eat.

[spudchucka]

My point is, why could three cops not subdue one man?
But let's not rehash this all over again.

If you had been there you would know why, if you had the opportunity to speak to some of the people that were there you might understand but I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you.

[Lou Girardin]

Why though did they back off in the first place it has to be asked? They where going after a armed and dangerous criminal and decided after retreating that he was dangerous?And why did they only have their pistols and not the bushmasters they had in the car?


I think their instructions are to back-off and contain. Perhaps they didn't have time to get the rifles unlocked?

[Lou Girardin]

If the cops (not the 18 years old ones - but the real old grumpy ones like Scumdog) were given proper firearms they could of got a head shot.

Yeah that's right, a couple of cops who've never fired a shot in anger are confronted by a maniac with a shotgun, so they set up their MP5 with laser sight and tripod, get a sight picture, take 2 deep breaths and let out part of the third and then take a head shot.
Riiiight!

[sAsLEX]

Too heavy and awkward for close combat. The Glock by itself will do fine. Just add bullets.
WE use shotguns for close in work, pistol grip ones though....


I think their instructions are to back-off and contain. Perhaps they didn't have time to get the rifles unlocked?

Interesting way to deal with a crazy. Maybe there SoPs need looking at.

Do they not have a bird down there? I mean up here they could of easily found the guy with the FLIC on the Eagle.... it does have one doesn't it?


Yeah that's right, a couple of cops who've never fired a shot in anger are confronted by a maniac with a shotgun, so they set up their MP5 with laser sight and tripod, get a sight picture, take 2 deep breaths and let out part of the third and then take a head shot.
Riiiight!


ummm MP5 are close in weapon so doubt you would use a tripod with them....

[Finn]

WE use shotguns for close in work, pistol grip ones though....

In Albany?

[sAsLEX]

In Albany?


Nah in G Field.

[Finn]

Yeah that's right, a couple of cops who've never fired a shot in anger are confronted by a maniac with a shotgun, so they set up their MP5 with laser sight and tripod, get a sight picture, take 2 deep breaths and let out part of the third and then take a head shot.
Riiiight!

Well they give them patrol cars and look how responsible they are with those.

[RT527]

What a shame. He lost his leg (http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921702a10.html). Is that enough for you?

In my opinion,....They threw away the wrong part...:Punk: :innocent: :mellow:

[RT527]

ummm MP5 are close in weapon so doubt you would use a tripod with them....

Yup and they are also a Bloody sight more accurate than a glock at 25 metres .


Cartridge 9 × 19 mm Luger
Action Roller-delayed blowback, closed bolt
Rate of fire 800 round/min
Muzzle velocity 270 m/s (886 ft/s)
Effective range 200 m (219 yd)
Feed system 15- or 30-round detachable box magazine
Sights Rear: rotary diopter; front: tritium hooded post.

[jrandom]

Yup and they are also a Bloody sight more accurate than a glock at 25 metres...

They fire the same cartridge, you know. But yes, to all accounts the MP5 is just fine out to 100m.


Muzzle velocity 270 m/s (886 ft/s)

That's gotta be wrong. NATO standard 9x19 has a 115 grain bullet going at > 1,200fps from a pistol barrel, and I'd expect the cops to be using +P (overpressure) JHP (expanding hollowpoint) loads which would travel even faster.

A single 9mm hit resulting in leg amputation is somewhat beyond the usual reported experience, though. I know of a guy who shot himself in the femur with a .44 Magnum during a CAS match. He walks a bit funny now, but it was hardly an amputation situation.

Hmm.

Note to self: Link to this story on glocktalk.com. Troll as many .45 maniacs as possible by pointing out that it's a good thing the cops didn't shoot him with a .45; if a 9mm can take off his leg, undoubtedly a .45 would have blown his entire body apart and left a nasty mess on the hillside.

[davereid]

Swat in the USA use Bushmasters or similar. But non specialists use pump action shot guns, not because they are a better weapon, but because at close range they are better than a handgun or sawn off shotty. Maybe, given the amount of time our cops spend on firearm training, we should have got them Shotguns for the GD lads.

It just seems to me, that a handgun is selected because its easy to carry. So for a generally unarmed police force, its the wrong gun. If they need arming, they need a weapon that is effective, easy to use, and if you get it wrong not going to be killing bystanders 2km away.

I'm sure if the cops in this case DID NOT have access to handguns, they would have taken the Bushmasters. That would have given us a better outcome. But better again would have been a 12ga pump action !

[Scorpygirl]

So now they have amputated his leg..pushed some poor old guy in desperate need of a hip replacement out of his bed, to do it no doubt. Not only do I pay for his legal aid, trial expenses, incarceration.. but now through ACC, I will contribute to a permanent disability payout for the rest of his natural also.... while kids born with a disability get sweet f a and schools suffer lack of funding to employ teacher aides....
Seems all fair and just to me.. NOT!


I'm with you Yungatart!!! Pity they didn't amputate at the neck. "Sorry nurse ...the knife slipped, honestly!!!" "What a shame" :shutup:

[SixPackBack]

So the police would be better of with sawn off shot guns?. Wouldn't that have stopped William's with the first shot taking the pellet spread into account.

[jrandom]

I'm sure if the cops in this case DID NOT have access to handguns, they would have taken the Bushmasters.

Bear in mind that these were general-duties cops. They probably didn't expect to be the ones that would actually encounter Burton. Their primary task was much more likely to be shepherding civilians out of the area, providing roadblocks etc. If it wasn't for their Glocks, those cops may well have been unarmed when Burton turned up.

In most police situations, a handgun on the hip makes much more sense than having to carry an assault rifle around. You have to put the rifle down to do anything, and the M4s aren't exactly friendly-looking grampa's-walnut-stock rifles to wave around in front of civilians, either.

A pistol is quickly accessible at all times if the SHTF, but doesn't get in the way when you have to do the 99.9% of random-other-stuff that cops spend their time doing. That's why most PDs have separate AOS/SWAT teams - the requirements of general public-facing policing and conflict with armed opponents are very different.

Also, have you ever tried getting in and out of a vehicle in a hurry while keeping a long gun safe, secure and ready to bring quickly into action? It's not that straightforward.

[sAsLEX]

I'm sure if the cops in this case DID NOT have access to handguns, they would have taken the Bushmasters. That would have given us a better outcome. But better again would have been a 12ga pump action !

From what I have heard they had them in the vehicle which is why they reversed their retreat and engaged Burton as they did not want him getting hold of the weapons....




Also, have you ever tried getting in and out of a vehicle in a hurry while keeping a long gun safe, secure and ready to bring quickly into action? It's not that straightforward.


Depends on the vehicle, easy to jump out the back of a LAV or Mog ready and running

Maybe they need shorter carbine weapons, (maybe wrong use of term there) like the tankies Styr's with the short barrel

[davereid]

Yeah, thats the point I'm making - a handgun is ideal for carting around if you have to be armed all the time.

But if you KNOW that today, someone might be shooting at you, I think you want a better weapon.

And if you don't train or use guns a lot, a pump action shotgun would be a better choice than a handgun.

[Lou Girardin]

if a 9mm can take off his leg, undoubtedly a .45 would have blown his entire body apart and left a nasty mess on the hillside.

Could it be that it didn't take off his leg, just did irrepairable nerve and artery damage?

[sAsLEX]

Could it be that it didn't take off his leg, just did irrepairable nerve and artery damage?

Or shattered bone they take limbs off for that

[jimbo600]

Give the GDB guys these to sort out fucktards.

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah, I can just see the 5 shot Taser cop armed with that!

[RT527]

A thought just came to me ....A lot of people are saying the cops should be armed....



Well I would have thought this would be a given....fuck all they can do with out arms is there!!!


Cant write
cant drive
cant shoot
cant write tickets etc etc.

[Hitcher]

Can't insert apostrophes.

[jrandom]

Depends on the vehicle, easy to jump out the back of a LAV or Mog ready and running

Well, yes, of course. I was thinking of the "front seat of patrol car" scenario as it applies to general Plod.


Maybe they need shorter carbine weapons, (maybe wrong use of term there) like the tankies Styr's

Steyrs. No apostrophe. Consider yourself on warning...

AFAIK, the M4 is about the same length as the AUG [edit: and was primarily developed because troopers complained about having to maneuver full-length M16s around in confined vehicular spaces]

[James Deuce]

Nah, you want a Glock 18 carbine you do.

[sAsLEX]

Steyrs. No apostrophe. Consider yourself on warning...

AFAIK, the M4 is about the same length as the AUG [edit: and was primarily developed because troopers complained about having to maneuver full-length M16s around in confined vehicular spaces]

Steyrs come in two lengths in the NZDF one where the barrel ends just after the receiver ends, past the gas plug and another with a more normal length barrel. Coupled with the bulpup design it makes the tankies version quite short

[Hitcher]

Steyrs. No apostrophe. Consider yourself on warning...

A BDOTGNZA Stormtrooper!

Rule 1. Never argue with anybody named after a pistol. Here endeth the Wesson.

[Hitcher]

And as a one-time "tankie" I would have preferred the MP5K that the SAS used, rather than having to heft an SLR around.

[sAsLEX]

SLR around.

Been superseded they have by Steyrs, nice little 5.56 bullets now.

[Hitcher]

There's something strangely reassuring about standing behind a 7.62mm slug going the opposite direction at about 840 metres a second.

[James Deuce]

SLR/FN-FAL's are great for felling gum trees. Any softwood tree actually.

You pin one of those targets that were a commie's head with the helmet with the red star and keep firing until the tree falls down. Good fun.

[Ixion]

:Oi: Watch it wiv the head. :Pokey: :spanking:

[sAsLEX]

There's something strangely reassuring about standing behind a 7.62mm slug going the opposite direction at about 840 metres a second.

If you ever get the opportunity watch a Howitzer display, reassuring standing behind them as they hurl the shells but go to the other end ........ glad I am in the Navy, 115mm airbursting does not look like fun to be anywhere near!

[scumdog]

Yup and they are also a Bloody sight more accurate than a glock at 25 metres .


Cartridge 9 × 19 mm Luger
Action Roller-delayed blowback, closed bolt
Rate of fire 800 round/min
Muzzle velocity 270 m/s (886 ft/s)
Effective range 200 m (219 yd)
Feed system 15- or 30-round detachable box magazine
Sights Rear: rotary diopter; front: tritium hooded post.

Used a .40cal version, a lot more whack and on three-shot mode was VERY accurate:yes:

[scumdog]

Swat in the USA use Bushmasters or similar. But non specialists use pump action shot guns, not because they are a better weapon, but because at close range they are better than a handgun or sawn off shotty. Maybe, given the amount of time our cops spend on firearm training, we should have got them Shotguns for the GD lads.

It just seems to me, that a handgun is selected because its easy to carry. So for a generally unarmed police force, its the wrong gun. If they need arming, they need a weapon that is effective, easy to use, and if you get it wrong not going to be killing bystanders 2km away.

I'm sure if the cops in this case DID NOT have access to handguns, they would have taken the Bushmasters. That would have given us a better outcome. But better again would have been a 12ga pump action !

Shotguns tend to be a bit hazardous to bystanders and innocents due to their indescriminate flinging of lead - if your going to launch shot big enough to bring a large offender down it's going to travel a long way if it doesn't embed itself in the intended target (and it keeps spreading).

The Gov't won't supply enough M4s for every cop to have one

The Glock is handy because you never have to remember to bring it with you as you bail out of the car (or try and find space for it in the car AND have it handy.

This site has a big population of "Monday morning quarterbacks" who are unembarrassed at publicising their 'expert' knowledge - especailly if it's 20-20 hindsight knowledge.:yes:

[doc]

If you ever get the opportunity watch a Howitzer display, reassuring standing behind them as they hurl the shells but go to the other end ........ glad I am in the Navy, 115mm airbursting does not look like fun to be anywhere near!

Seems that for a sailor you know a lot about the the soldier weapons, you are turning it into another gun porn thread.

[jrandom]

Steyrs come in two lengths in the NZDF...

Ah. I did wonder, after posting, if that might have been the case. One learns something every day. :)


This site has a big population of "Monday morning quarterbacks"...

I believe the technical term is "mall ninjas". :Punk:

[jrandom]

... you are turning it into another gun porn thread.

Gun porn threads are the new beer threads.

[jrandom]

Could it be that it didn't take off his leg, just did irrepairable nerve and artery damage?

Sarcasm, dude.

You obviously haven't been subjected to the heat of the 9mm-vs-.45ACP debate, with the endless WW2 stories about how Uncle Jim shot a Jap in the pinky finger with his FOWERTY FAHVE and the hydrostatic shock blew the Jap's head clean off. And then what was left of the Jap's body flew 18 feet straight back from the impact and took out a tank.

Et cetera.

Beats me why H&K haven't released the MP5 in .45ACP. The US Army could retire all their Barretts.

[James Deuce]

You obviously haven't been subjected to the heat of the 9mm-vs-.45ACP debate, with the endless WW2 stories about how Uncle Jim shot a Jap in the pinky finger with his FOWERTY FAHVE and the hydrostatic shock blew the Jap's head clean off. And then what was left of the Jap's body flew 18 feet straight back from the impact and took out a tank.


I wonder if any of them watch Myth Busters?

[riffer]

Sarcasm, dude.

You obviously haven't been subjected to the heat of the 9mm-vs-.45ACP debate, with the endless WW2 stories about how Uncle Jim shot a Jap in the pinky finger with his FOWERTY FAHVE and the hydrostatic shock blew the Jap's head clean off. And then what was left of the Jap's body flew 18 feet straight back from the impact and took out a tank.


Meh. Totally busted last week by Mythbusters.

I also see no comment on the recent news (http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/PoliticalNews/tabid/188/articleID/17967/Default.aspx) about Napier Police carrying guns.

[riffer]

I wonder if any of them watch Myth Busters?

Damn. You beat me to it. By ages. Funny how this post never showed up until after I'd posted...

[Paul in NZ]

This site has a big population of "Monday morning quarterbacks" who are unembarrassed at publicising their 'expert' knowledge - especailly if it's 20-20 hindsight knowledge.:yes:

Worse that that...

We are happy to discuss all sorts of weapons suitable for dispatching the 'criminal' on the scene but lack the moral fibre to do the job officially. Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.

I feel sorry for this guy - like dogs, I'm sure he was not born 'bad' but I'm also fairly certain that our society should not waste any more of our scant resources on him.

[jrandom]

I wonder if any of them watch Myth Busters?

I missed that one. Did the cover the old 'hydrostatic shock' chestnut, then? Or was it 'knockdown power'?

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?

There's a video on liveleak of a soldier getting shot in Iraq while wearing Level IV/V body armour. The bullet obviously doesn't penetrate, but he sure gets knocked on his arse before hopping up and scooting away.

The back of a handy envelope tells me that the kinetic energy of a 160 grain bullet at 3000fps is about the same as a 1500kg car at 10kph. Which would push you over if it smacked into you, but not quite send you flying backwards.

[sAsLEX]

Seems that for a sailor you know a lot about the the soldier weapons, you are turning it into another gun porn thread.

Team Defence force, Tri-Service, we aint that far separated no longer


Gun porn threads are the new beer threads.

Maybe we discuss this somewhere else over a nice laphroaig.....


Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.



There where other options like AOS and STG that could of been utilised, people more trained to deal with the situation rather than beat cops.

[jrandom]

Why we would expect two GD constables (who did a bloody good job or at least secured a result which is the same thing) to do what we are too squeemish to do is beyond me.

I don't think it has much to do with squeamishness; rather, society's reluctance to use the death penalty is more to do with an acknowledgement of our justice system's fallability.

It's the rare person who will argue against the death penalty in the hypothetical instance of a perfect judiciary proving beyond doubt that someone is guilty of premeditated murder, and I would suggest that such people argue instinctively from their own insecurities and fears rather than anything recognisable as logic.

[Hitcher]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater. Interestingly it was the weapons with the least muzzle velocity that were the most effective.

[jrandom]

There where other options like AOS and STG that could of been utilised...

Read the news reports - there were 25 AOS guys there at the time. Burton just happened to pop up in front of the two GD officers.

[James Deuce]

I missed that one. Did the cover the old 'hydrostatic shock' chestnut, then? Or was it 'knockdown power'?

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?

There's a video on liveleak of a soldier getting shot in Iraq while wearing Level IV/V body armour. The bullet obviously doesn't penetrate, but he sure gets knocked on his arse before hopping up and scooting away.

The back of a handy envelope tells me that the kinetic energy of a 160 grain bullet at 3000fps is about the same as a 1500kg car at 10kph. Which would push you over if it smacked into you, but not quite send you flying backwards.

Nope. They shot beef, they shot their dummy with every thing from handguns to a Barret from about 15m away. The Barret moved the dummy back 2 inches. They proved beyond a doubt that the flying backwards thing is a Hollywood invention, and discussed it with military personnel as well.

The guy fell over because his balance point shifted, not from the force of the bullet. They put a steel plate on the front of the dummy to make sure that the force was transferred to the dummy directly. The .50 round went through the plate and out through his spine. He moved two inches in the process.

Equal and opposite reactions. For the Dummy to fly back, the marksman would have to as well.

[jrandom]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater.

Ever fired a .22 into a swimming pool?

[sAsLEX]

Didn't they shoot slabs of beef, or something?


Normally a ballistic gel.

[James Deuce]

The Mythbusters' episode I saw they were endeavouring to shoot things underwater. Interestingly it was the weapons with the least muzzle velocity that were the most effective.

Reflected in the adoption of subsonic firearms for US Special Forces troops who specialise in underwater ops.

[Hitcher]

It's the rare person who will argue against the death penalty in the hypothetical instance of a perfect judiciary proving beyond doubt that someone is guilty of premeditated murder, and I would suggest that such people argue instinctively from their own insecurities and fears rather than anything recognisable as logic.

Whereas I would argue that a "civilised" society deserves a justice system, rather than a revenge system, and that state-sanctioned murder has no place in restorative justice.

[jrandom]

They proved beyond a doubt that the flying backwards thing is a Hollywood invention, and discussed it with military personnel as well... The guy fell over because his balance point shifted, not from the force of the bullet.

Er well um. The point I'm trying to make is that the guy in the video definitely fell down as a result of the bullet hitting him. I mean, you see the same thing in boxing matches sometimes, and yes, of course it's just a matter of the impact toppling someone off balance rather than making them fly backwards.

We all have a fairly good intuitive understanding of what happens to a person when a car hits them at various speeds. If you run the KE numbers for cars versus bullets it quickly becomes apparent that any bullet having a similar effect is pure nonsense.

[doc]

Reflected in the adoption of subsonic firearms for US Special Forces troops who specialise in underwater ops.

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

[sAsLEX]

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

KE= 1/2 * m * v^2

so you use a bit fat bullet to get the power/energy required.

[James Deuce]

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.

http://www.hkpro.com/peleven.htm

A 7.62mm handgun.

[doc]

KE= 1/2 * m * v

so you use a bit fat bullet to get the power/energy required.

We are talking practical here.

[Sniper]

I love these sorts of threads.

Dont forget, you have to understand how much energy will be transferred to the victim from the projectile in order to find how much the target will move back. I bet the dummy would have moved back a hell of a lot more if they shot at the plate with something smaller than .50

[sAsLEX]

We are talking practical here.

I keep forgetting the laws of physics don't apply in real practical situations, silly me.

[Finn]

I was speaking to a person yesterday who knows a prison officer at Paremoremo. He said that right up to the time Burton was released on parole, he was a nutter and wanted to go down in history as NZ's most notorious hard arse.

There's a lot of big, tough talk about guns but at the end of the day, kiwi's are a bunch of pitiful wimps who created this mess in the first place, then act all angry and ask lots of questions when this shit goes down. This is nothing new. It happens all the time.

Kiwi. A flightless bird. How appropriate.

Bloody colony.

[Pixie]

the govt should get its Ass kicked out. END OF RANT. And did I say SHOOT THEM. Aaaaaal of them. It would be for the best.

It is the govt that demands,while hiding behind the parole board's skirts,that criminals are released on parole.
They require this for various reasons - to keep the national prison population low, so Clark can look good to the UN and get a job with them.
To save money in the prison system so Cullen can increase his surpluses etc.

[James Deuce]

I love these sorts of threads.

Dont forget, you have to understand how much energy will be transferred to the victim from the projectile in order to find how much the target will move back. I bet the dummy would have moved back a hell of a lot more if they shot at the plate with something smaller than .50

As I said they shot it with everything from hand guns to sniper weapons. The Barrett caused the biggest movement.

At .223 round from a generic small bore hunting rifle barely marked the dummy's clothing.

[jrandom]

Whereas I would argue that a "civilised" society deserves a justice system, rather than a revenge system, and that state-sanctioned murder has no place in restorative justice.

You want restorative justice?

How do you argue its necessity? Certainly justice must exist to provide a secure, predictable society for those willing to abide by the necessary behavioural constraints, but beyond that?

The justifiability of capital punishment for premeditated murder is easy to establish from any end of the philosophical spectrum. Both Kant's categorial imperative and moral relativism allow it. I could go on. The only reason for not bending to such an overwhelming moral necessity, as a society, is the pragmatic consideration of judicial fallability.

I put it to you that your desire for restorative justice exists only as a necessary prop for your benevolent self-image. Restorative justice may be desirable on a selfish level, but it is no more morally justifiable than masturbation.

[jrandom]

We are talking practical here.

Google the .300 Whisper.

[doc]

I keep forgetting the laws of physics don't apply in real practical situations, silly me.

Cost does theory is free

[terbang]

KE= 1/2 * m * v

so you use a bit fat bullet to get the power/energy required.


Nearly there.
1/2xMxV(squared) Its the V (velocity) bit thats squared. In other words if you say doubled the V (velocity) then you would get 4 times the Kinetic. If you doubled the M (mass) then you would only have double the Kinetic.

[jrandom]

kiwi's are a bunch of pitiful wimps... This is nothing new. It happens all the time.

Kiwi. A flightless bird. How appropriate.

Fuck off. You're just angry about tax rates. Get over it.

Good troll, though.

[Hitcher]

It is the govt that demands,while hiding behind the parole board's skirts,that criminals are released on parole.
They require this for various reasons - to keep the national prison population low, so Clark can look good to the UN and get a job with them.
To save money in the prison system so Cullen can increase his surpluses etc.

1. The Government does not "demand" that prisoners are released on parole. Those decisions are made on a case-by-case basis.

2. Parole is a legitimate device used in the rehabilitation of people convicted of all manner of offences.

3. The Rt Hon Helen Clark is not in the running for any "job" with the UN. There were unsubstantiated rumours that she may have been in contention for the Secretary General's role when Kofi Annan's term expired. Now that Ban Ki-moon has secured that role, I would have thought that the Clark rumours may have disappeared.

4. (Over)Expenditure on new prisons is a significant issue for this Government. Bumping a few more prisoners out on parole is unlikely to have any material effect on this whatsoever.

[Finn]

Fuck off. You're just angry about tax rates.

I would be if I was paying any.

Now, hop back in the water fish.

[terbang]

Kiwi. A flightless bird. How appropriate.

Bloody colony.
A short flightless Bird. How appropriate.

[jrandom]

I would be if I was paying any.

You'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes.

Anyway, if you're not paying tax, you can doubly fuck off in terms of this debate.

[Finn]

The Rt Hon Helen Clark

There's nothing right nor honourable about that bitch. Admittedly, she has one quality the UN admires. Corruption.

[Pixie]

Or maybe the jails need Saunas units installed

Yeah, like the ones they had at Belsen:Punk:

[jrandom]

There's nothing right nor honourable about that bitch.

Would you like a paper towel to wipe off the spittle when you're finished?

[Hitcher]

I put it to you that your desire for restorative justice exists only as a necessary prop for your benevolent self-image. Restorative justice may be desirable on a selfish level, but it is no more morally justifiable than masturbation.

Mmmmm. Masturbation...

And what is wrong with benevolence, even if we had a "perfect" judicial system? And "morals" too are a function of time, place and world view. Not all moral roads lead to Rome, particularly when it comes to the premeditated killing of people.

[Paul in NZ]

Whereas I would argue that a "civilised" society deserves a justice system, rather than a revenge system, and that state-sanctioned murder has no place in restorative justice.

Revenge?

From the trusts web site... Restorative Justice is a way of responding to the offence and its effects that makes the people affected by the crime the focus. Restorative Justice creatively addresses the trauma of crime by recognising that victims have many needs which are not met in the current system. While victim pain is a primary concern of restorative justice, victim and offender restoration is a priority. Offenders are made accountable at face-to-face meetings with the victim. Support people are invited who assist the parties in achieving reconciliation.

Restorative Justice tries to achieve accountability, restoration, and reintegration

All very nice for property crimes or disorderly behaviour but this brand of justice won't restore to lives of two innocent people BUT it could have prevented the second and will definately prevent the 3rd. I do not advocate lopping the heads off all and sundry but some crimes and criminals are beyond the pale. This man is not 'human'...

[jrandom]

And what is wrong with benevolence, even if we had a "perfect" judicial system?

Not wrong; just unnecessary. Also costly, therefore of dubious value.


And "morals" too are a function of time, place and world view.

Piffle. The human condition is a constant, and truth is an invariable. Your statement, there, isn't even proper moral relativism; it's just a cop-out.


... particularly when it comes to the premeditated killing of people.

As I said, you don't like the idea of executing murderers. You find it, in fact, downright distasteful. That doesn't mean it's not right and necessary.

My three-year-old son doesn't like broccoli.

He will, I hope, eventually learn to rationalise the fact that that's just tough shit.

[James Deuce]

Can't have it both ways. Re-institute the death penalty and you have a very good chance that 1 in 3 people you execute are innocent of the crimes they have been convicted of. Not necessarily innocent people, but innocent of the crimes they are executed for. The moral framework that used to support the death penalty was as black and white as the judiciary that ran it.

That isn't the case anymore. Change is a constant. Adapt or die. Which is what Darwin really said.

There's been a lot of stuff posted on KB that could be regarded as seditious, and in a couple of cases downright treasonable. The both used to be punishable by death in the "Home" Isles.

So what is it folks? Execute all criminals for all crimes? Or none? There isn't any middle ground, despite what the liberal losers and kooky conservatives will claim. Some of you blokes flatting better stop stealing toilet paper from work, and I had better stop absently walking off with other people's pens.

[Finn]

Anyway, if you're not paying tax, you can doubly fuck off in terms of this debate.

Nice one you little conformist. I prefer to decide where my money is spent.

[Hitcher]

As I said, you don't like the idea of executing murderers. You find it, in fact, downright distasteful. That doesn't mean it's not right and necessary.

My three-year-old son doesn't like broccoli.

He will, I hope, eventually learn to rationalise the fact that that's just tough shit.

I wish you every success in converting your son to the joys of brassicas and me to the wisdom of state-sanctioned murder.

[scumdog]

.

Equal and opposite reactions. For the Dummy to fly back, the marksman would have to as well.


A shitload of people on this site are totally unaware of THAT law of physics going by their comments on fire-arms, alone let alone on riding incidents.....

[Finn]

A short flightless Bird. How appropriate.

Fortunately, I wasn't burdened with the Kiwi gene. However, my Grandmother was a little short.

[jrandom]

Nice one you little conformist.

Guilty as charged, when it comes to pragmatically integrating with the society I find myself in.

I put it to you that you're no 'nonconformist'; you're just a self-obsessed blowhard looking for a way of justifying your generic anger.


I prefer to decide where my money is spent.

Good chap. Now go argue with someone with whom you've established at least some moral authority.

[scumdog]

Fortunately, I wasn't burdened with the Kiwi gene. However, my Grandmother was a little short.

So in essence you are 'short-bred'???????:shutup: :dodge:

[jrandom]

I wish you every success in converting your son to the joys of brassicas and me to the wisdom of state-sanctioned murder.

I plan on converting neither of you.

I'm just going to force my son to eat the broccoli for a few more years so that Mrs Fish doesn't glare at me too hard over the dinner table.

But at least you provide an indulgent foil for my random pseudo-intellectual spouting. Number One Son just wanders off and asks for SpongeBob.

[doc]

Historically jails were simply a place to hold a person until they were executed. I think the next step was for holding them until they could be transported. Then the PC bastards come up with a new word called rehabilitation. How do you rehabilitate some one who has crossed to the dark side. You remove him .Permanently at the lowest possible cost.

[Paul in NZ]

Can't have it both ways.



Why not? You cannot seriously tell me that in the case discussed here there is any reasonable doubt?



Change is a constant. Adapt or die. Which is what Darwin really said.

I agree - this prick didn't adapt or evolve and therefore he should die...

[scumdog]

I love these sorts of threads.

Dont forget, you have to understand how much energy will be transferred to the victim from the projectile in order to find how much the target will move back. I bet the dummy would have moved back a hell of a lot more if they shot at the plate with something smaller than .50

They tried it with a shitload of fire-arms Sniper - the 50 moved the dummy the most.

Non of the bullets penetrated the dummy fully so ALL the energy was spent on the dummy.

Matt and Bruce Grant did this sort of experiment about 45+ years ago using a large box of gravel hanging like a pendulum.

They found a cricket ball thrown very hard moved the box almost as far as a rifle bullet (can't remember what calibre, it WASN'T a .22!!)

[Finn]

Guilty as charged, when it comes to pragmatically integrating with the society I find myself in.

I put it to you that you're no 'nonconformist'; you're just a self-obsessed blowhard looking for a way of justifying your generic anger.



Good chap. Now go argue with someone with whom you've established at least some moral authority.

Nice one Sigman. Put it where you like, I just choose not to contribute to this social experiment. Completely above board and legitimately too I might add. I'm just working the system like the rest of us.

Now go sell your moral fibre to the family whose member was slain by your buddy Burton.

[scumdog]

I would imagine if they were using subsonic, it would be for covert purposes. Subsonic has very little power. It is not suitable for humame slaughter of pigs.


Hmm, NOT from my experience of using sub-sonic loads......

[Finn]

Hmm, NOT from my experience of using sub-sonic loads......

Stop it. Grahameeboy is getting turned on.

[Pixie]

I love these sorts of threads.

Dont forget, you have to understand how much energy will be transferred to the victim from the projectile in order to find how much the target will move back. I bet the dummy would have moved back a hell of a lot more if they shot at the plate with something smaller than .50

The .50 bullet actually penetrated the 1/2" steel plate,but imbedded in the dummy's alloy spine - all energy was therefore transfered to the resultant dummy/bullet system

The mythbusters said that research gathered from scene of crime officers shows that being "blown backwards" just does not happen.

[Sniper]

They tried it with a shitload of fire-arms Sniper - the 50 moved the dummy the most.

Non of the bullets penetrated the dummy fully so ALL the energy was spent on the dummy.

Matt and Bruce Grant did this sort of experiment about 45+ years ago using a large box of gravel hanging like a pendulum.

They found a cricket ball thrown very hard moved the box almost as far as a rifle bullet (can't remember what calibre, it WASN'T a .22!!)

Ok, I suppose sometimes its seen both ways, because Ive seen something get hit and do nothing and Ive also seen something get hit and shift back about 40cm

[jrandom]

I just choose not to contribute to this social experiment... I'm just working the system like the rest of us.

You may choose to believe that nobody makes decisions based on altruism or moral conscience.

I prefer to live in a way that materially disproves such destructive and self-justifying cynicism.


Now go sell your moral fibre to the family whose member was slain by your buddy Burton.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm one of the ones arguing for capital punishment here. I find myself fully capable of holding in balance the views that Burton deserves execution, and that you're a thoughtless, selfish cunt.

[Finn]

and that you're a thoughtless, selfish cunt.

You're onto me.

However, I'm not completely thoughtless. I actually really appreciate little people like yourself working hard and paying tax so I don't have to.

Keep up the good work chum.

[jrandom]

I actually really appreciate little people like yourself working hard and paying tax so I don't have to.

You're calling me the little people?

Anyway, I don't work all that hard. I just sort of stuff around on KB a lot, occasionally pausing to pop out enough nuggets of professional brilliance to stop my employer actually firing me.