We listened, now kindly naff off... [Archive]

Drunken Monkey

27th July 2004, 17:22

As a semi-active part of the motor vehicle industry 'lobby', I was involved with a number of written submissions to the LTSA in respect to their changes on exhaust noise rules. Although at the time I was specifically working with performance car enthusiasts, this rule also specifically effected me (and others here) as performance bike enthusiasts. Some of you may have heard the musical bark of the graves pipe on my gixxer...

Well, we have heard their final word - excerpt below:

"What was the result of consultation on exhaust noise?

The issue of vehicle exhaust noise drew the most interest during consultation. Many of the submissions were from vehicle enthusiasts who put forward a range of views. The Land Transport Safety Authority also consulted with the exhaust system industry."

Oh, that sounds interesting. Maybe someone at the LTSA may have come to their senses. Well it sounds like they actually care what we think...

It continues...

"The rule carries over and clarifies exisitng legislation. This requires that a modified exhaust system should not be noticeably and significantly louder than the original equipment."

i.e. F**k off, we don't actually care what your piddly little lobby group thinks anyway, we're going ahead with a rule that has nothing to do with SAFETY anyway (seeing as we are actually the Land Transport Misinformation Authority) to please a bunch of old codgers that don't like 'boy racers' merely because they vote for our bosses. And damn all the other people that get effected by the fallout...

The only positive note was:
"This is a subjective test, but an objective noise test for New Zealand will be developed as part of a revised Emissions Rule due to be developed in 2004/05"

Well, at least they admit that a subjective test is balls, and they intend to do something about it.

I don't know about you fellas, but I think seeing as we're hard enough for cage drivers to SEE, I would also like to give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off.

pfffttt...

duckman

27th July 2004, 17:25

Nice writeup,

I got the same "blurb" in the mail yesterday and after reading it three times ... Gave up and had a drink.

So thank you for clearing that up. :niceone:

Two Smoker

27th July 2004, 17:42

I can give you a situation where my loud exhuast actually saved me....

I was going up Hillsborough Road, and changed lanes into lane 1, i did nothing wrong and was ACTUALLY DOING THE SPEED LIMIT (shock horror)..... i was passing a 4x4 on the inside lane (as they were going slow as hell) when he decided to change lanes ontop of me because he didnt check his blind spot, i dropped it into second red lined it and popped the clutch, as soon as he heard my "beast" he instantly stopped the manuvoure and moved back into lane 2....

Ah the wonder of loud exhausts.......

Coldkiwi

27th July 2004, 17:43

yup.. got one too. I was going to post about it but when all I could say is ' hey fellas guess what, we're getting shafted still', I lost a bit of enthusiasm. Thanks for doing it anyway DM!

definitely a below par performance from the LTSA. Whats the next step to be taken??

Motu

27th July 2004, 17:56

Push any harder and the next step is that it will have to pass some international,like manufacterers noise test - let's go for that eh?

F5 Dave

27th July 2004, 17:56

In reality unless your pipe is facing forward they are not going to hear you so I think that is a mute argument (no pun intended).

What sucks is the number of vehicles that become uneconomic to continue to run as who the heck can afford genuine exhaust systems.

We are becoming ridiculously overrun with regulations that are almost as draconian as German TUVs. When it get to the stage where there are certain homologated tires you can run for your model then it is time to go postal. :ar15: :ar15:

Personally I think that noise will always be an issue :mega: & the quieter we can be the less they will pick on us. Esp. dirt bikes should repack their mufflers regularly if we want to keep the land. Aftermarket road mufflers can benefit from that Silent sport ‘stringy wool’ type muffler packing. You can blame the kids in their shopping-cart hatchbacks (odd how mum’s car has become cool 10 years down the track) with 4” pipes on the back driving around suburbia late at night pedal-to-the-floor keeping the lawmakers awake at night for all this. :tugger:

Before you bleat that I’m siding with them, my YZF has a V&H SS2R full system so it does border on obnoxious if you open the throttle in urban areas (so I try to save that for rural), so I have a vested interest.

Wenier

27th July 2004, 18:00

i definitely agree that it is safer for us to have loud exhaust, cause as two smoker said it can save you. I for one think this makes me noticeable around here since the cagers really are that bad.

F5 Dave

27th July 2004, 18:04

You're fooling yourself. They sit in their airconditioned box with the stereo going, the only time they can hear you is when you pass or it is too late.

Wenier

27th July 2004, 18:05

Before you bleat that I’m siding with them, my YZF has a V&H SS2R full system so it does border on obnoxious if you open the throttle in urban areas (so I try to save that for rural), so I have a vested interest.

I hope u do realise that most people who live in a rural area also get pist off when they hear ppl bootin it down the road they happen to live on (sound travels well out here), but then quite a few of them have gotten use to it and dont actually care too much, unless the fool doing it crashes into their paddock (happens alot jus down the road from where i live).

F5 Dave

27th July 2004, 18:08

Of course, but generally speaking farmers aren't legislators. + we are only doing it during daylight hours & nothing pisses people as much as when they get woken up & it disturbs the kids etc.

Wenier

27th July 2004, 18:13

round here it tends to happen at night, bloody ricers round here, and they always go off into this one paddock quite funny really. good to go down and laugh at them because if they knew the road theyd never crash there

speedpro

27th July 2004, 19:11

dangerous

27th July 2004, 19:29

In reality unless your pipe is facing forward they are not going to hear you so I think that is a mute argument

Sorry Dave but that line of yours is crap (IMHO)
I watch people sudenly look around as they here me comming and I know they cant see me in there mirrors cos I cant see them in it, and yes of course if there stero if redlining they may not here anything.

Now as an example there is a VTR that splits past me on the way home most nights and up till one week ago he had the stock cans on and I would NOT here him comming....... however he now has Remus cans on and I DO here him comming from at least 3 cars back, and FWIW his cans point rearwards ;)

What?

27th July 2004, 19:30

I got the same "blurb" in the mail yesterday and after reading it three times ... Gave up and had a drink.
Me too. :beer:

FROSTY

27th July 2004, 20:20

Sorry guys I think you're all missing the point here.
They don't give a fuck about our safety Thats reality.
We either like it or lump it.
They care more about splitting a fingernail than they do about one of us ending up in hospital.
The noise laws are to "protect" the majority of the population from us reckless louts.

sAsLEX

27th July 2004, 20:35

In reality unless your pipe is facing forward they are not going to hear you so I think that is a mute argument (no pun intended).

.

I can FEEL let alone HEAR when quasi and the other twins with pipes aproach from the rear, thats over 18k of 250 and a fair bit of wind noise!

Quasievil

27th July 2004, 20:37

Well my Bike aint noisy anyway :crazy:

DEATH_INC.

27th July 2004, 20:47

Sorry Dave but that line of yours is crap (IMHO)
I watch people sudenly look around as they here me comming and I know they cant see me in there mirrors cos I cant see them in it, and yes of course if there stero if redlining they may not here anything.

Now as an example there is a VTR that splits past me on the way home most nights and up till one week ago he had the stock cans on and I would NOT here him comming....... however he now has Remus cans on and I DO here him comming from at least 3 cars back, and FWIW his cans point rearwards ;)
I was gonna say that too.I hear bikes with pipes coming from behind in my 4X4 (can't say you never heard that hardley on open pipes...)and I noticed the difference in driver response on the gixx,the fzr and the zx12 when I fitted a race can.....

Wenier

27th July 2004, 21:52

Most drivers dont have the stereo up loud or rev the shit out of their car so you pretty well assured that wit a loud can youll b heard, and youll no if you have been cus theyll b checkin their mirrors trying to figure out wut ya doing when your jus following them. Can help round here cus people tend to stop and let you go past.

Drunken Monkey

27th July 2004, 22:06

definitely a below par performance from the LTSA. Whats the next step to be taken??

Civil disobedience!

Oscar

27th July 2004, 22:24

What a bunch of dorks.

Here you are, crapping on about letting car drivers hear you (and how loud would your exhaust have to be, pray tell, to penetrate the environs of the average newish car?), so as to know you're there. Yeah right...

In the meantime, the poor bastids behind you in traffic, and those living nearby, have to put up with the noise. Result? Motorcycles become more marginalised as people get fed up.

Me, I hate hotted up Rotaries.
Why?
'Cause there's a couple in my neighbourhood and they're noisy little anti-social backward cap wearing retards whose arse I'd kick soon as look at 'em....problem is, I never see them - I just HEAR them as they go home late at night. If my local politician wanted my opinion as to what to do with loud exhausts on cars, I'd be hard pressed not to recommend capital punishment.

So please, don't gimme this "Loud pipes saves lives" shit. It's bullshit and you know it - all it's doing is making sure the legislation comes sooner and is more draconian.

Motu

27th July 2004, 23:42

Yeah,I was real pissed off at some local wanker who blatted up and down at night on his bloody two stroke every night for a couple of weeks - then we found the dead frog in the empty corrogated iron water tank.

We are moving towards the Euro ''CE'' compliance regulations,every component...lamps,tyres,glazing meets certain standards - ultimatly the whole vehicle will be made to meet a standard,not many compliance regs,just the one - one item not up to build standard and it's a noncompliance issue.Make more noise and they will shut you up,one way or another....your choice.

Bob

28th July 2004, 02:00

Just wait until the EU emissions regulations start heading your way (it'll happen, no doubt about it. The EU are pretty damn powerful now - and the last round of emission regulations that came out in 2003 killed off some good bikes - and I mean stopped production. Old Fazer was the highest profile victim but there were lots of bikes had to be deleted from the manufacturers listings. At some point the EU and US will look to harmonise regs - and when that happens, everyone else will be pressured to fall in line).

When they do, you'll all be looking back at the 'Good Old Days'!

What?

28th July 2004, 07:14

Well put, Oscar. My submission to the LTSA was entirely to do with the lack of scientific testing for compliance to the noise rule, and the lack of parity between different classes of vehicle. I personally couldn't give a fuck if my F650 was considered to be too loud so long as the testers can give accurate, repeatable results, and trucks were required to meet the same standard.
And as for "loud pipes save lives" - utter bullshit. Possibly even endangers a few as tin top drivers don't hear the open-piped Hogly coming from behind until it is right beside them, giving them a hell of a fright. When Gramps gets a fright, who knows what (s)he might do...
This does not mean I don't like the sound of a 916 running Termignoni's. I do. It's just a matter of application of a law in a way that can be demonstrated to be fair. It also would mean no more Jacobs brakes on trucks

Motu

28th July 2004, 07:39

Well put, Oscar. My submission to the LTSA was entirely to do with the lack of scientific testing for compliance to the noise rule, and the lack of parity between different classes of vehicle. I personally couldn't give a fuck if my F650 was considered to be too loud so long as the testers can give accurate, repeatable results, and trucks were required to meet the same standard.

That's the whole point - because they can't produce a meaningful test proceedure they will ultimatly fall back on the original manufacturers compliance test...so a non original system will be a fail,push this issue and that will be the outcome.The LTSA have backed off on this one,just let it be for now.

Deano

28th July 2004, 07:50

The 1976 Road Traffic Reg's does contain an objective test to test vehicle noise. It refers to British Standard 3425 or ISO Recommendation R362.

So talk of a new test is bollocks really. Legislators always seem to be good at making new laws in the face of public outcry, when more often that not existing laws will suffice - they just haven't been actively enforced.

As far as the safety issue goes, how many motorists do not see you on your bike. People certainly hear me when I approach from behind nowadays.

The issue of some hoon screaming up and down the road at night with a loud exhaust is called offensive behaviour. My mate was pulled over once and the cop said you don't ride this bike at night do you (loud exhaust), so is a loud exhaust during the daytime really an issue ?

How about getting all the noisy buses off the streets then ?

In the Dominion Post this morning, there is a new catseye speed camera being touted as the next best thing in speeding enforcement - maybe it could be time to purchase that race bike.

White trash

28th July 2004, 08:18

- maybe it could be time to purchase that race bike.

Pre '89 brother! Do it! Cheap as chips, use your race bike as a road bike.

Devil

28th July 2004, 08:31

so is a loud exhaust during the daytime really an issue ?
It is when its (most commonly) attached to a 4cyl (integra anyone?), making it physically painful to listen to when revved. I dont know how they manage to make those particular frequencies that loud and sharp but I just want to beat the fucker senseless.

I dont mind louder exhausts (when they're on there for a reason), but ones that are too sharp should fuck right off. I can feel my eardrum rattling.
gah.

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 08:33

What a bunch of dorks.

How's about, "go fuck yourself".

No need for that kind of trash talk, presumptuous asshole.

You probably said something midly intellectual after that statement, but I chose to ignore it.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 08:38

How's about, "go fuck yourself".

No need for that kind of trash talk, presumptuous asshole.

You probably said something midly intellectual after that statement, but I chose to ignore it.

Oh you poor thing.
Imagine getting mild personal abuse on the internet...shock horror!
I would imagine that far from ignoring the rest of my comment, you struggled to understand it.

Ps. I never said who was included in the "bunch". Motu and What? obviously didn't think they were - "Cap fits" eh?

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 08:45

Oscar

28th July 2004, 08:57

You expect to be taken seriously with that attitude? Show a little good form and add something constructive without the baseless insults. Otherwise, take it to another thread, there's a few other dickheads around here who just want to play wind-up, go waste their time instead.

Actually my insults are entirely well founded. Motorcyclists who adhere to the "Loud Pipes saves Lives" credo are dickheads, pure and simple. They are hurting all of us, alienating Joe Average and making it easier for anti-motorcycle legislation to go through. Guys like you, who crap on about the "musical tone of their pipes" and "letting cages hear us" are your own worst enemies.

vifferman

28th July 2004, 08:58

Yeah,I was real pissed off at some local wanker who blatted up and down at night on his bloody two stroke every night for a couple of weeks - then we found the dead frog in the empty corrogated iron water tank.:lol: Good one, Motu!

Sorry guys, but apart from the comments about objective testing and standards, this thread seems to smack of the same sort of selfishness and hypocrisy that the ones on speeding do: i.e., I'm OK, fook you Jack. I'd like my bike to be louder than standard, but do I really have a right to annoy other road users just so I can enjoy my sounds? Do I have a right to speed just because I think I'm a better driver/rider than all the other morons and because it's fun?

I hate the PC anti-fun bureaucratic nazis too, but like What? said, it'd be OK imposing rules as long as they were universal. How come it's OK for trucks to make heaps of noise, and smoke like buggery, but not OK for my bike to be slightly louder than standard (an asthmatic wino shouting down a drainpipe) yet still quieter than a truck at full revs?

I would be sad to see (hear?) the end of things like my neighbours 996 with Termignonis, or a piped Triumph triple, but then again, I'd really welcome the absence of HDs with drag pipes, and while I enjoy the sound of a sportscar with extractors, I can't stand the sound of a droning big-bore exhaust, whose sole purpose is to make noise and impress other wankers with similar vehicles. The trouble is, to get objective and FAIR regulations, there will be little differentiation between these different sound sources.

When I first got the FahrtSturm, I took it to a VINZ station, left it running, and asked the guys there if it would pass a WOF test (it had had a 'bafflectomy'). The guy stood there looking at it for a while, gave it a rev, stood there for a while longer, bent down and rubbed the crud off the noise regulation crapola ("Less than 90dB blah blah") stamped on the muffler, looked at the end of the mufflers, and said, "Nup. Someone's cut the endcaps out - you're not allowed to do that." I wasn't surprised. I found the "mufflers" offensively loud, and everywhere I went people turned to see WTF was coming down the road. I can do without that sort of attention (and being pulled up by the police because they could hear me coming from a km or two away...)

A young guy at work was bleating last week because his boy-racer POS Mazda 323 failed its WOF because the big-bore, droney zorst was too loud. He was REALLY pissed off, so took it to another place, then to Woolf Mufflers to find out just how loud it was (100db at 3.5k rpm at 1m from the zorst end). Then he went somewhere else, and the guy just looked at it, and said, "Sounds OK to me" and gave him his WOF. I was most disappointed, as I'd hoped he'd have to get a new muffler....
But the whole point was that there was a LOT of aggro over the thing, because it was SO subjective. Another guy was pulled up by the police because the cop said, "I know you weren't exceeding 50km/h, but you sounded like you were going faster. Keep it down a bit.":doh:

NordieBoy

28th July 2004, 09:09

So please, don't gimme this "Loud pipes saves lives" shit. It's bullshit and you know it.

I've ridden my Nordie with the original and home-made pipes.
The original would only cause a disturbance at a sewing machine convention.

As soon as I started using the home-made pipe I started getting cut up less on the road, go back to the quiet one and start getting cut up again.

I've seen people I know coming towards me and been waving to them and they havn't seen me at all.
It's not like I'm invisable or anything.... Oh whoops, yes I am.

Theres loud pipes and theres stupidly loud pipes.

vifferman

28th July 2004, 09:09

Actually my insults are entirely well founded. Motorcyclists who adhere to the "Loud Pipes saves Lives" credo are dickheads, pure and simple. They are hurting all of us, alienating Joe Average and making it easier for anti-motorcycle legislation to go through.I agree, and your comment:
"In the meantime, the poor bastids behind you in traffic, and those living nearby, have to put up with the noise. Result? Motorcycles become more marginalised as people get fed up."
is quite right, and the likelihood of reinforcing the "bloody motorcyclists" anti-biker sentiment is very real.
You calling the "loud pipes save lives" bleaters 'dorks' may be a little strong, but I agree in principle. More than once I've had a hell of a fright when a bike with very loud pipes has come screaming past me. In almost all cases, I didn't hear it until it was right behind me, and it momentarily unsettled me. And if we take the argument to its logical conclusion, then all vehicles should be loud so we can hear them before we see them? Then there would be so much noise pollution we wouldn't be able to distinguish individual vehicles.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 09:12

I've ridden my Nordie with the original and home-made pipes.
The original would only cause a disturbance at a sewing machine convention.

As soon as I started using the home-made pipe I started getting cut up less on the road, go back to the quiet one and start getting cut up again.

I've seen people I know coming towards me and been waving to them and they havn't seen me at all.
It's not like I'm invisable or anything.... Oh whoops, yes I am.

Theres loud pipes and theres stupidly loud pipes.

It's amazing how often it's the guys with the stupidly loud pipes who come up with the life saving excuse.

I still say that get anyone's attention from behind as they're sitting in their family car, with the stereo going or the kids arguing, would require pipes with the volume of a jet engine...

Oscar

28th July 2004, 09:14

I agree, and your comment:
"In the meantime, the poor bastids behind you in traffic, and those living nearby, have to put up with the noise. Result? Motorcycles become more marginalised as people get fed up."
is quite right, and the likelihood of reinforcing the "bloody motorcyclists" anti-biker sentiment is very real.
You calling the "loud pipes save lives" bleaters 'dorks' may be a little strong, but I agree in principle. More than once I've had a hell of a fright when a bike with very loud pipes has come screaming past me. In almost all cases, I didn't hear it until it was right behind me, and it momentarily unsettled me. And if we take the argument to its logical conclusion, then all vehicles should be loud so we can hear them before we see them? Then there would be so much noise pollution we wouldn't be able to distinguish individual vehicles.

Wellput. Give that man a ceegar.

svs

28th July 2004, 09:15

got that too, first I wondered what I was doing getting mail from the LTSA and wondered what I did wrong (there's a guilty conscience for ya).

So, when people say 'we live in a democracy - do something about it' - as a number of us have and got involved in the consultation process. What to you do when they respond like this? They even noted that the exhaust noise section drew significant feedback, so it is something that a lot of people care about.

So what next? Just lie down and take it? :buggerd: :angry2:

I don't mind if the legislation is across the board, but when they say things like 'no louder than original manufacturer' we get bloody noisy HD's and whisper quiet honda's.

rant over - I'll go back to work now :brick:

White trash

28th July 2004, 09:19

I like loud pipes.

My nabours don't have a problem as they're normally only loud when ridden loudly.

I leave for work at 6:45 and the neighbours couldn't give a toss if I'm on the Harley, GSXR, CG125, SRX. Not like I'm doing burnouts or anything.

I think there should be a noise cap for WOFs and I think it should be uniform.

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 09:29

I still say that get anyone's attention from behind as they're sitting in their family car, with the stereo going or the kids arguing, would require pipes with the volume of a jet engine...

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. However, in some circumstances, it can give you that extra chance of being noticed - as some people have posted from personal experiences. If I drive my car through a busy (with pedestrians) carpark, I have to toot the horn to get people to move out of the way - they really have no idea you're driving up behind them. On the converse side, when I ride my bike down urban streets, kids will hear it and stop and look (rather than just running out) = surely that can't be a bad thing?
I also don't think anyone disagreed that a standard, objective test is a good thing (as per first post). The question is what standard. If an across the board standard is set by a brand new factory family car, like a Mazda 3 or similar, you may find legislators will later push the local motorcycle industry to fit aftermarket exhausts which make the bikes quieter than current factory models - yes, that isn't the LTSA's current intent, but it is a possible next step.

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 09:34

So, when people say 'we live in a democracy - do something about it' - as a number of us have and got involved in the consultation process. What to you do when they respond like this? They even noted that the exhaust noise section drew significant feedback, so it is something that a lot of people care about.

So what next? Just lie down and take it? :buggerd: :angry2:

That was my biggest problem with the whole thing. (the rest are mere details...)
My does missus f'n mavis from Winton get to write 1 letter into the broadcasting standards authority to get something pulled of T.V. (where simply turning the TV off would have sufficed), when a sizeable number of people get together and submit a thought-out submission get told thanks, but no thanks?

Slim

28th July 2004, 09:36

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 09:47

I've ridden my Nordie with the original and home-made pipes.
The original would only cause a disturbance at a sewing machine convention.
. . .

Well my other half is an avid sewer & the girls all get together & presumably rev the crap out of their powerhouse machines & create all hell. She tells me they spend most of the time gossiping & talking about sex, but how likely is that?

Anyhoo she has just got a new machine (Janome or something) & it is quieter than the old one (Bernina - Now there was a MAN's sewing machine!) so I was thinking I’d soup it up for her, drill some holes in the bodywork, fit a mega, flycut al the internals down for quicker response & alter the turns ratio on the motor to let that puppy rev to the stratosphere!! :spudbooge

I wonder if I should tell her before I start work? :rolleyes:

Motu

28th July 2004, 10:33

spudchucka

28th July 2004, 11:03

My main objection was to the the subjective testing and the fact that no one person can possibly know what every model of every vehicle sounds like standard in the first place!
Perhaps testing stations will have to keep a "control" model of each vehicle for comparison.

Its simple really, all motorcycles should be allowed performance exhausts - within reasonable sound levels, V8's and other nice sounding muscle cars can have performance exhausts too. Blaat, Blaat, Blaat Rotary's should be blown up on sight and rice rocket jockeys with big bore droney exhausts and blow off valves should be beaten senseless for sport.

Well thats my take on the subject anyway. :whistle: :whistle:

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 11:08

. . .

Its simple really, all motorcycles should be allowed performance exhausts . . .

. . . Rotary's should be blown up on sight. . .

Ahh, ok what if it's an Suzuki RE5 or JPS Norton rotary then?? :laugh:

Mongoose

28th July 2004, 11:08

Perhaps testing stations will have to keep a "control" model of each vehicle for comparison.

Its simple really, all motorcycles should be allowed performance exhausts - within reasonable sound levels, V8's and other nice sounding muscle cars can have performance exhausts too. Blaat, Blaat, Blaat Rotary's should be blown up on sight and rice rocket jockeys with big bore droney exhausts and blow off valves should be beaten senseless for sport.

Well thats my take on the subject anyway. :whistle: :whistle:

Is that you being subjective or objective Spud? I tend to agree that realy loud annoying pipes on ANYTHING is not a good idea, but then again,I am half deaf so what would i know. As long as HD's keep getting WoF's there is no way my Guzzi will fail. :killingme
On another note(exscuse the pun) do individual submissions carry as much weight as, say, one from the likes of BRONZ?
Unfortunately we are a minority group and there is no political gain to be had pandering to us in any way as some other minority groups get pandered to.

Hitcher

28th July 2004, 11:11

We are becoming ridiculously overrun with regulations that are almost as draconian as German TUVs. When it get to the stage where there are certain homologated tires you can run for your model then it is time to go postal.
New Zealand is one of the few countries in the world that allows vehicle owners to fit tyres to their vehicles of a lesser standard than those fitted by the manufacturer. Not good enough, in my view, and an area that should be regulated to enhance safety.

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 11:17

Great, so we have to have manufacturer’s listings for all vehicles trialed with particular tires. If you have a Ford Laser then most likely this won’t restrict what kind of tires you can fit. If not then maybe you are invalidating your insurance. Heaven help you if you fit mags with non std tires to you vehicle.

Not that I would, my Van runs on steels. Wouldn’t mind some OZ forgeds for my YZF though. :banana:

Hitcher

28th July 2004, 11:18

Personally I think that noise will always be an issue & the quieter we can be the less they will pick on us. Esp. dirt bikes should repack their mufflers regularly if we want to keep the land. Aftermarket road mufflers can benefit from that Silent sport ‘stringy wool’ type muffler packing. You can blame the kids in their shopping-cart hatchbacks (odd how mum’s car has become cool 10 years down the track) with 4” pipes on the back driving around suburbia late at night pedal-to-the-floor keeping the lawmakers awake at night for all this.
Before getting up in arms it would be useful to determine what it is that we want here. If we're seeking no regulation so that we can hoon around on full-throat v-twins and howling fours, we can kiss that wish goodbye. It's a no-brainer -- there will be noise control regulations.

Surely the issue is "how much noise is too much?" The real answer to that is that it's a matter of time and place. But from a regulator's point of view they can't control time and place but they can limit the amount the noise that comes out the hole at the end of the pipe. And they will.

An argument that says that vehicle noise is important to enhance road safety isn't going to impress the regulators, so forget about advancing that option.

It's up to us to ensure that we get "sensible" rather than "whisper quiet" as an outcome of any regulation. This requires us as bikers to be sensible and realistic. We are members of a wider community and we need to be sensitive to that community's wants and needs.

Hitcher

28th July 2004, 11:22

Great, so we have to have manufacturer’s listings for all vehicles trialed with particular tires. If you have a Ford Laser then most likely this won’t restrict what kind of tires you can fit. If not then maybe you are invalidating your insurance. Heaven help you if you fit mags with non std tires to you vehicle.
You misunderstand. Most countries have regulations that vehicles be fitted with tyres no less than the standard fitted by the manufacturer. If you want to fit superior wheels and tyres, no problemo!

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 11:24

vifferman

28th July 2004, 11:33

Mongoose

28th July 2004, 11:41

I guess the fact that four-in-to-one pipes that are noisey sound like you are mving along at a rate of knots has not escaped people on here. Two-in-to-one can sound just as fast, wonders if thats why some people get hassled over their speed?

Coldkiwi

28th July 2004, 13:15

the real tragedy of all this new legislation banter is that it completely misses the problem... and causes other people to miss it as well.

the problem is not people with performance pipes driving sensibly down the street. Who has EVER had an issue with someone doing that? If a sports bike goes flying down the traffic at full blat, the car drivers will get freaked if they don't notice him first because they will either see him flash past very close or hear him zoom past. The noise is irrelevant.
Also, to say that there is no relationship between noise output of a vehicle and pedestrian/driver awareness simply shows you boys haven't done your research (just like LTSA!). Ever manufacturer of hybrid/electric vehicles KNOWS it is a problem with these quieter types and is having to come up with other ways around the problem. get your head out of the sand and go find out instead of spouting off. All the info is out there if you choose to look.

The problem is that some people who happen to have performance pipes choose to act irresponsibly and generate a hell of a lot of noise in one location. If 1% of all licenced drivers engage in this behaviour and are generally more likely to avoid legislated requirements ANYWAY, how does forcing the other 99% of the non-problem drivers into ridiculous subjective limits stop the problem? It doesn't! that was part of the basis for my submission about the proposed rules. Its like putting a cast over a gangrenous leg, it's the right area but the wrong treatment.
Incidentally, the EU limits on noise are now being geared towards control of flowing traffic noise output, generally the result of tyres and not the exhaust. To my knowledge, no standards organisation has proposed a new exhaust test for all vehicles that is regarded as superior to the BS362/ISO that was generated in 1976... what makes the LTSA/Police Dept of Meddling think they have the scientific nouse to do it is quite beyond me!!

lets think clearly people. Do your research then post eh?

Deano

28th July 2004, 13:25

My Neptunz are loud, but I wouldn't consider them stupidly loud, and they have passed a WOF. Ive had no noise complaints but drivers in vehicles do seem to notice me more often now, and I prefer that they know Im there. End of story.

scumdog

28th July 2004, 13:30

My H-D has biggerbore mufflers, it's louder than stock but not anywhere straight-pipe level, as a moron that thinks loud pipes save lives I have already seen kids run to the edge of the road without looking - then stop dead and stare in the direction of my bike that they heard rather than saw.

My V8 F100 is magic when it comes to noise, deep rumble but not too loud, the real fun is going to the top story in a car-park building and leaving a trail of activated car-alarms set of by the vibration as I drive past - real mature eh? :niceone:

Went down the waterfront at Sumner in my F100 on Sunday, l.o.l. to see all the baggy-panted backward hatted owners of tinted-windowed/lowered/winged Toymazishiru whatevers milling around then stop dead in their tracks to stare with open mouths - then all grabbing the c'phones and stabbing the buttons flat out, would have given my eye-teeth to read how they described what they had just seen!! :Offtopic:

NordieBoy

28th July 2004, 13:57

Ahh, ok what if it's an Suzuki RE5 or JPS Norton rotary then?? :laugh:

Then it'll probably blow up on it's own :D

NordieBoy

28th July 2004, 14:03

When I got my XT it had the huge heavy original exhaust,it was so quiet I couldn't hear it on the road with ear plugs in,with no tacho I was making a real mess of my riding - so...I get me a Supertrapp,that's the go eh? Bloody hell,running just the header pipe when I slipped the Suppertrapp on it made more noise! I'm down to 4 discs now without effecting performance,but it's still as loud as ever....I'm kinda disappointed.Like others,I want a bit more noise,but don't want to piss people off.

My supertrapp (1.75" IDS) with 13 discs seems to be about right.
I started with 6 discs (same area as the standard pipe) and went up 2 at a time and then dropped back one when there was a noticable difference in performance (better).
With 6 discs it was like farting through the eye of a needle.
Would have climbed a wall with the torque though :D

Just had some headwork and the compression raised slightly and may try dropping 2 discs and seeing what happens now as it seems to have more bottom end but still has a big hit at 6000rpm.
I want less hit with a broader spread of power.

Tuneable pipes rule :D

NordieBoy

28th July 2004, 14:07

It's amazing how often it's the guys with the stupidly loud pipes who come up with the life saving excuse.

I still say that get anyone's attention from behind as they're sitting in their family car, with the stereo going or the kids arguing, would require pipes with the volume of a jet engine...

I had my life saved and then went "wow, it does work!".
I liked the quieter pipe as I'm riding all day every day.
But as I said, I wouldn't go back to it now.

If you're cruising along at 50-70 and someone doing the same speed decides to pull across in front of you then they will hear the louder pipe.
You're not coming up to them at a rate of knots or anything, scaring the shit out of them as you fly by.

vifferman

28th July 2004, 14:30

My V8 F100 is magic when it comes to noise, deep rumble but not too loud, the real fun is going to the top story in a car-park building and leaving a trail of activated car-alarms set of by the vibration as I drive past - real mature eh? :niceone: Yes, it is. Indisputably.
I mean, I'm a mature gentleman, errr... person.... and I certainly enjoy this very same activity.
So it must be OK.

Two Smoker

28th July 2004, 16:11

AS you can see in my comment at the start of this thread, i gave a sitiuation where the loud pipe DID save me..... My bike is not obscenely loud at idle, or even at 6000rpm but up above 8 grand she starts screaming.... AS you can also see in my comment i was BESIDE the vehicle in their blindspot, as i was passing them, they only heard me when I REDLINED IT. So read the comment properly Mr Oscar before you make huge generalisations... If you areflying up behind someone then ofcourse it will scare the cage driver. but that is irralivant whether there is a loud exhaust or not (as CK stated)

Yes i get fucked off with the guy down the road with a HD with straight pipes, because it is FAR too loud, if its loud when opened up wide, whats the problem with that??? The problem is the rider if it is loud high up in the revs and constantly loud...

The other problem is the loudness/drone of a Boy Racer car, sure if they are only loud high up in the revs, no problem, but when they are idling and i can't talk to a mate thats a couple of metres away from me it is too loud....

Man that probably doesnt make sense, but im tired so who cares.....

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 16:16

Of course most bikes have a little button on the left handlebar to notify cars that are about to encroach on thier space. :whistle:

Two Smoker

28th July 2004, 16:20

Of course most bikes have a little button on the left handlebar to notify cars that are about to encroach on thier space. :whistle:
Yep and i would use it....... if it was loud... I have used my horn before, didnt work, car kept coming and nearly took out my front wheel AFTER i had braked hard.....

Stupid fucking puny horn :angry2: Next bike im going to put a massive air horn on it....

F5 Dave

28th July 2004, 16:23

Classic bit from Goodbye Pork Pie when they robbed a horn from a train for the mini.

AAWWOOOGAARRR!!!

Oscar

28th July 2004, 16:26

AS you can see in my comment at the start of this thread, i gave a sitiuation where the loud pipe DID save me..... My bike is not obscenely loud at idle, or even at 6000rpm but up above 8 grand she starts screaming.... AS you can also see in my comment i was BESIDE the vehicle in their blindspot, as i was passing them, they only heard me when I REDLINED IT. So read the comment properly Mr Oscar before you make huge generalisations... If you areflying up behind someone then ofcourse it will scare the cage driver. but that is irralivant whether there is a loud exhaust or not (as CK stated)

Me generalise?
Never.

Are you seriously telling us that faced with split second, life or death situation, you had the presence of mind to pull in your clutch and rev your bike? Strange thing to do...

Why did you not use the time to take evasive action? Apply the brakes? The horn?

Isn't pulling the clutch in, in that situation just a tiny bit silly? Loss of forward momentum and all that?

Perhaps the money you spent on your loud pipes would have been better spent on advanced riding lessons?

pete376403

28th July 2004, 16:26

Fiamm electrics powered via a relay straight off the battery are very loud, real discordant notes that you just cannot ignore. No hassle with mounting compressor or long trumpets either. Each one is smaller than a Big Mac

Two Smoker

28th July 2004, 16:33

Me generalise?
Never.

Are you seriously telling us that faced with split second, life or death situation, you had the presence of mind to pull in your clutch and rev your bike? Strange thing to do...

Why did you not use the time to take evasive action? Apply the brakes? The horn?

Isn't pulling the clutch in, in that situation just a tiny bit silly? Loss of forward momentum and all that?

Perhaps the money you spent on your loud pipes would have been better spent on advanced riding lessons?I pulled in the clutch to drop it into second, revved the shit out of it and popped the clutch to get out of the way faster, couldnt brake as there was a car directly behind me up my arse (typical Auckland scenario...) I didnt spend any money getting loud pipes, i didnt mod them either, the previous owner did.....

As for talking about my riding ability, how about you judge that after riding with me, but since many people have ridden with me off this site, how about you read their comments.....

I agree with your original statement partly, and your entitled to your opinion, but its generalisations which create the downfall for things.... ie if a bike crashes and the rider dies, therefore all bikes are death traps, stupid generalisation isnt it..... Same can be said about exhuasts there is the odd fuck head out there, but sometimes it works and does domething right

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 16:43

Yes problemo. What is superior? Well we’ll need a list. . . otherwise it’s just as subjective as the noise test.

Do you think the legislators will say well it came out on Michelin pilots but it’s ok to fit Diablos, but not Azaros?

I think Hitcher is referring to one being able to say, for example, fit 'H' rated tyres on a car that would normally ship with 'Z' rated tyres. In theory, that's probably not a problem if you're not heavy footed and don't go over 100km/h. In practice, if I were to buy a sports car (or bike), I would drive/ride it as such, and would therefore get myself into a lot of trouble riding the lesser rated tyre over the conditions it was designed for. I don't think the brand or options within the range is restricted, ie you can fit ANY Z rated tyre to a bike that ships with a Z rated tyre, just not a lesser rated tyre.

Or are you speaking of another factor, H?

spudchucka

28th July 2004, 16:47

Ahh, ok what if it's an Suzuki RE5 or JPS Norton rotary then?? :laugh:
It would be no great loss as far as I'm concerned, blow them all up f**ken iritating bastards.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 16:52

I pulled in the clutch to drop it into second, revved the shit out of it and popped the clutch to get out of the way faster, couldnt brake as there was a car directly behind me up my arse (typical Auckland scenario...) I didnt spend any money getting loud pipes, i didnt mod them either, the previous owner did.....

As for talking about my riding ability, how about you judge that after riding with me, but since many people have ridden with me off this site, how about you read their comments.....

I agree with your original statement partly, and your entitled to your opinion, but its generalisations which create the downfall for things.... ie if a bike crashes and the rider dies, therefore all bikes are death traps, stupid generalisation isnt it..... Same can be said about exhuasts there is the odd fuck head out there, but sometimes it works and does domething right

So do you make a habit of red-lining your bike before engaging a lower gear?
Somewhat risky technique, no? Almost as risky as passing a 4x4 on the left, in Auckland? Marked lanes or not, I find this a suicidal proposition...

As for generalisations, aren't we discussing the generalisation which you posted in support of - Loud Bikes save Lives???

spudchucka

28th July 2004, 16:54

Of course most bikes have a little button on the left handlebar to notify cars that are about to encroach on thier space. :whistle:
Ya can't hear it over the V2 rumble. Beep, Beep - it doesn't exactly say "get the f**k out of my way" does it!

Two Smoker

28th July 2004, 17:12

So do you make a habit of red-lining your bike before engaging a lower gear?
Somewhat risky technique, no? Almost as risky as passing a 4x4 on the left, in Auckland? Marked lanes or not, I find this a suicidal proposition...

As for generalisations, aren't we discussing the generalisation which you posted in support of - Loud Bikes save Lives???
I do not make a habit of it, but do so when wanting to make a quick move, ie when im on the start line whilst racing, im not going to take of normally, im going to get close to the redline and slip the clutch to get a fast takeoff, it is a 150 2 stroke so not exactly a power creator, therefore it is not a risky technique, if anyone know about pushing a RG150 to its limits its me.....

No we are not discussing the generalisation, i am saying there are instances where it can help..... It was marked lanes and im sure as hell not going to sit behind a 4x4 doing 45kmh on hillsborough road, where the average speed of cars is 70.... thats just asking me to be shunted from behind which i see as being worse....

Oscar

28th July 2004, 17:20

I do not make a habit of it, but do so when wanting to make a quick move, ie when im on the start line whilst racing, im not going to take of normally, im going to get close to the redline and slip the clutch to get a fast takeoff, it is a 150 2 stroke so not exactly a power creator, therefore it is not a risky technique, if anyone know about pushing a RG150 to its limits its me.....

No we are not discussing the generalisation, i am saying there are instances where it can help..... It was marked lanes and im sure as hell not going to sit behind a 4x4 doing 45kmh on hillsborough road, where the average speed of cars is 70.... thats just asking me to be shunted from behind which i see as being worse....

I'm sorry, but I'm still skeptical.
You are saying that a guy driving a diesel 4x4 heard your RG150 (with a standard muffler) and it saved your life? Did the driver tell you? How do you know he just didn't see you in his mirror?

I once avoided a collision by kicking a car door - should this be encouraged too?

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 17:21

As for generalisations, aren't we discussing the generalisation which you posted in support of - Loud Bikes save Lives???

eh? The thread is titled:

"We listened, now kindly naff off..."

My actual point was how the LTSA have handled the issue, although my closing comment was indeed:

"I don't know about you fellas, but I think seeing as we're hard enough for cage drivers to SEE, I would also like to give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off."

Hardly an attempt at making some sort of rash generalisation like 'loud bikes save lives'.

Some people posted examples of where they felt the noise was, in at least a partial factor, the reason an accident was avoided.

So are you discussing a statement which hasn't even been stated?

Oscar

28th July 2004, 17:37

eh? The thread is titled:

"We listened, now kindly naff off..."

My actual point was how the LTSA have handled the issue, although my closing comment was indeed:

"I don't know about you fellas, but I think seeing as we're hard enough for cage drivers to SEE, I would also like to give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off."

Hardly an attempt at making some sort of rash generalisation like 'loud bikes save lives'.

Some people posted examples of where they felt the noise was, in at least a partial factor, the reason an accident was avoided.

So are you discussing a statement which hasn't even been stated?

It was stated - I said it.
At least three people alluded to collision avoidance or letting other road user hear you using loud pipes. Your own statement "..give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off." is a generalisation, and very close to oft repeated "Loud pipes saves lives".

As a safety policy it is patently stupid - it presupposes that you are making enough noise for them to hear, and that "they" are in a position to hear you coming. As someone else stated, if this is used as a justification for loud pipes, how are "they" gonna hear your particular exhaust over the din?

Do you actually think that the LTSA is going to take a propositon like that seriously?

Yes, I know I've been taking the piss, but there is a serious intent. The fact is that this sort of regulation/legislation only goes one way, against us. We can lose our rights slowly or fast, it's up to us - if we self regulate and try to avoid pissing people off, we'll get to keep the status quo for longer.

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 17:51

Oscar

28th July 2004, 17:59

You presume again, and you presume wrong.

The team I was involved in was specifically pushing the idea that exhaust noises were measured with a metering device under certain conditions. We were also pushing for consistency of application of the law across the board, pointing out that buses were one of the worst 'noise pollution' offenders. We submitted actual, metered examples of everyday situations.

Our focus had nothing to do with using loud exhausts as safety precaution. That is, as I said just moments ago, merely something that some people have related stories of actual situations they have been in to tell about on this thread.

I didn't presume anything. You said:

I don't know about you fellas, but I think seeing as we're hard enough for cage drivers to SEE, I would also like to give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off.

So did you not mean that the way it reads?
Are you not advocating loud pipes as a safety device?
How loud?
Louder than cars?
Buses?

Two Smoker

28th July 2004, 18:09

It was stated - I said it.
At least three people alluded to collision avoidance or letting other road user hear you using loud pipes. Your own statement "..give them an opportunity to possibly HEAR me coming before they cut me off." is a generalisation, and very close to oft repeated "Loud pipes saves lives".

As a safety policy it is patently stupid - it presupposes that you are making enough noise for them to hear, and that "they" are in a position to hear you coming. As someone else stated, if this is used as a justification for loud pipes, how are "they" gonna hear your particular exhaust over the din?

Do you actually think that the LTSA is going to take a propositon like that seriously?

Yes, I know I've been taking the piss, but there is a serious intent. The fact is that this sort of regulation/legislation only goes one way, against us. We can lose our rights slowly or fast, it's up to us - if we self regulate and try to avoid pissing people off, we'll get to keep the status quo for longer.
Yep i have to agree with most of that, i dont see a loud exhuast as a safety device, my situation was just an extreme example where it could be...... Personally i would have a larger exhaust not to look or sound cool, but to have the added HP in the upper rev range.....

Coldkiwi

28th July 2004, 18:10

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 18:12

1. Yes, _exactly_ as it reads. 'possibly' and 'given an opportunity' completely change the tone of the statement. Too bad for you if you can't see that or wish to disagree.

2. Nope. See 1.

3. Not more than x number of Decibels from y meters away from the exhaust of a vehicle at z number of rpm. I can't remember the specifics = would you like to read a boring report? I can probably request a copy...

4. Ideally, yes for bikes, but this possibly wouldn't be considered 'fair' (although that has never stopped the LTSA). However, bikes and cars are limited by different engineering constraints - weight, position, length of pipe. In practice, bikes are louder than cars because of these design factors.

5. Hell no, those things are permanent-hearing-damage loud. And stinky. And I saw an ambo and a cop at the bus stop yesterday as one of those f**kwit bus drivers had clipped a pedestrian = but that's another post.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 18:21

oscar... just go bother some poor soul you work with already instead of arguing in circles and wasting everyones time.

if you are trying to argue that theres no point in even considering a potential afety affect of being able to hear an approaching vehicle, then we should give up arguing because you've clearly lost your mind... either that or you're completely deaf and you have never experienced vehicle noise.

Your last statements could also be applied to headlights being on... a safety device which presumably relies on the drivers being in a position to see the headlight and lighting conditions that would allow them to differentiate between sunlight/reflection/headlight. Sure, thats not always the case... which is why a change in noise MIGHT (if it saves some poor sods life or limbs, why not??) alert the driver to the presence of a bike.

stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Bullshit.
Your analogy would be correct if headlights being on had the potential to piss people off or was anti-social in some way...but it isn't, is it?

My case is simple - the more of us riding around with noisy pipes (justify them how you like), the sooner and harsher will be the legislation to quieten us down.

As for your justification that it might save someone (and I have yet to see a case where it did more than a good quality horn would have achieved), down that road lies ruin, because argue it how you like, Joe Average and his MP is simply not gonna wear it...

Ps. As for wasting "everyones" time, you'll find as many agreeing with me as not. Who died and made you God?

dangerous

28th July 2004, 18:30

Motu

28th July 2004, 18:31

Come down and use my decibel meter if you like - you won't be able to get any reading that means anything.As I've mentioned on threads of this subject going way back,it's just not possible in a valid testing situation.But yes,if you push hard enough they will enforce the original compliance specification,then you will know everything is correct and ticketyboo.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 18:34

Oscar

28th July 2004, 18:38

Ohh...... whatever,
get over it, the only 'bullshit around here seems to be comming out of your............. sounds like you have a real problem with getting along with people :)
'chill out man'

Gee, thanks for that.
I hadn't realised that it was against the rules to disagree with people.
If we add your "whatever" attitude to the "Loud pipes are safe" attitude, we end with nobody taking us seriously. That way leads to disaster...

merv

28th July 2004, 19:14

I stick to standard exhausts on my bikes and wouldn't have it any other way and would not see a safety benefit in making a whole lot of noise but I sure as hell understand the noise of some people's bikes pisses off many members of the public and I think that its a bad idea.

I chuckle at times at the hypocrisy espoused in Kiwi Rider at times, they rave on quite strongly about the need for dirt bikes to be quiet so as to protect our available riding areas blah blah blah and they slate manufacturers whose bikes they say are noisy, and in the next breath they recommend/condone the fitting of noisy pipes to road bikes just like a whole lot of you on here seem to think is a good idea.

Not me, I wear earplugs as it is to keep the wind noise at bay in my helmet and basically cannot hear my VFR running hardly when I ride it and that's the way I like it.

p.s. I'm like the AA guy at Toyota Thames - I can say what I like. I don't care who disagrees or agrees with who here, as long as you have an opinion its better than no opinion

dangerous

28th July 2004, 19:19

Gee, thanks for that.
I hadn't realised that it was against the rules to disagree with people.
If we add your "whatever" attitude to the "Loud pipes are safe" attitude, we end with nobody taking us seriously. That way leads to disaster...

Mate, theres nothing wrong with disagreeing thats healthy, its the name calling thats not needed, call me a 'dork' and any of the other dribble that you wrote to my face, but not on line, if you have meet me then I'd proberly accept it also, but you havent.

Now to me it seems that its not 'loud' pipes thats the problem but the very FEW that treat these pipes with no respect or consideration for others, so we the marjority well have it rewened by the minority again.
Post #55 "ColdKiwi' sums it all up very well.

dangerous

28th July 2004, 19:32

In the time that it took me to write up my last post (2 finger style) it started raining...... I live on SH/W1 in a 60k zone, before the rain started the noise was a quite drone now that it is wet out, the noise has esculated to a loud racket. I can now here it over the TV..... so should 'rain' be banned....... Na, that would be stupid aye ;) 'silly me'

Weres it gona end, I cant even play bat n ball with my dog at the park any more he has to be on a lead at all times.....sad realy.
Live and let live.

merv

28th July 2004, 19:40

Weres it gona end, I cant even play bat n ball with my dog at the park any more he has to be on a lead at all times.....sad realy.
Live and let live.

Yep all starts with the irresponsible few abusing their privileges and all of a sudden we all have these extra laws imposed on the many. Remember my words suggesting things like this happen when debating the Chris Parkin case.

So to all the people on here that want to use and abuse the environment with noisy pipes, go right ahead but don't come crying back if the bureaucrats tighten the laws further and you have to go and pay money to get your bikes compliant. I will just smile.

Drunken Monkey

28th July 2004, 19:40

...call me a 'dork' and any of the other dribble that you wrote to my face, but not on line, if you have meet me then I'd proberly accept it also, but you havent...

That's a fair rule that everyone on this forum should live by.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 20:00

Mate, theres nothing wrong with disagreeing thats healthy, its the name calling thats not needed, call me a 'dork' and any of the other dribble that you wrote to my face, but not on line, if you have meet me then I'd proberly accept it also, but you havent.

Where did I call you a dork?
I don't believe you'd posted before I used that word (and if you read the post properly, you'll see I qualified it in the next sentence).

Still, if the cap fits...

dangerous

28th July 2004, 20:17

Where did I call you a dork?
Still, if the cap fits...

Ohh.... it doe's, it's yours ;)

Oscar

28th July 2004, 20:38

Ohh.... it doe's, it's yours ;)

Witty remarks are generally more effective with correct spelling.
That's not to say that your spelling alone qualifies you as a dork, that's down to your pompous attitude...

dangerous

28th July 2004, 20:43

So to all the people on here that want to use and abuse the environment with noisy pipes, go right ahead but don't come crying back if the bureaucrats tighten the laws further and you have to go and pay money to get your bikes compliant. I will just smile.

Yeah Merv.... but there is the problem, 'I' like the majority here have after market pipes but I do NOT 'abuse' anything or anyone, so why would you smile if I was to lose my pipes?
Like I said above the one twit in a thour that does abuse there noise limits will screw it up for the rest of us.

I ask you guys that protest after market pipes, does every snigle noisie pipe out there piss the hell out of you? or is it the odd a-hole that winds the crap out of there bike/car in the middle of the night in a quite family style st that piss's you off?

My long winded point here is, its not the noisie pipe that is the problem its the person riding/driving it.

dangerous

28th July 2004, 20:50

Witty remarks are generally more effective with correct spelling.
That's not to say that your spelling alone qualifies you as a dork, that's down to your pompous attitude...

Now you are just getting personal......... I am above that so I'll leave you to it.

Anyone else think that I am pompous.....LMFAO
And um... gee, sorry please remove the ' from does as I dont want to upset anyone.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 21:13

I chuckle at times at the hypocrisy espoused in Kiwi Rider at times, they rave on quite strongly about the need for dirt bikes to be quiet so as to protect our available riding areas blah blah blah and they slate manufacturers whose bikes they say are noisy, and in the next breath they recommend/condone the fitting of noisy pipes to road bikes just like a whole lot of you on here seem to think is a good idea.

That hypocrisy exist here, and most places the brethen gather. They crap on about "cages" and harsh law enforcement etc, then brag about the wheelies they pull in town and their high speed antics on public roads...

Actually the Kiwi Rider guys (John Nic in particular) were in the vanguard of the anti-noise push off-road, and I'm sure it has helped us to retain access to a lot of land over the years. I recall decibel meters being used at enduro's in the late '80's.

Oscar

28th July 2004, 21:15

Now you are just getting personal......... I am above that so I'll leave you to it.

Any one else think that I am pompous.....LMFAO

Past your bedtime?http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/naughty.gif

Wenier

28th July 2004, 21:24

would require pipes with the volume of a jet engine...

How loud in dB is a jet engine then??

And i dont consider my bikes exhaust stupidly loud either jus a nice note and it does get me noticed on the road around here which is a good thing as the amount of accidents caused by cage drivers not looking is huge.

And the other down side to the law is for the real motorsport guys, how would you distingish between a rice racer and a person who is really into thier motorsport and drag races and attends track days. They have loud exhaust and they cars have mags and are lowered and so on, so how do you know if it is jus a ricer or someone who uses these add-ons properly (i no generally ricers rev the crap out of it full time but from looks how do u tell).

Oscar

28th July 2004, 21:39

How loud in dB is a jet engine then??

And i dont consider my bikes exhaust stupidly loud either jus a nice note and it does get me noticed on the road around here which is a good thing as the amount of accidents caused by cage drivers not looking is huge.

And the other down side to the law is for the real motorsport guys, how would you distingish between a rice racer and a person who is really into thier motorsport and drag races and attends track days. They have loud exhaust and they cars have mags and are lowered and so on, so how do you know if it is jus a ricer or someone who uses these add-ons properly (i no generally ricers rev the crap out of it full time but from looks how do u tell).

Jet engine at take off - 140dB.

You’ve never considered the possibility that these people whose attention you get with your pipes, are looking around in annoyance? People who shake their heads, muttering “..bloody bikies…” and stalk off to write to their MPs?

What about the possibility that the Backwardscap&Hoody Brigade in their RX7's are making more noise than you? How do you get them to "notice" you?

Ghost Lemur

28th July 2004, 22:18

Motu

28th July 2004, 22:58

And the other down side to the law is for the real motorsport guys, how would you distingish between a rice racer and a person who is really into thier motorsport and drag races and attends track days. They have loud exhaust and they cars have mags and are lowered and so on, so how do you know if it is jus a ricer or someone who uses these add-ons properly (i no generally ricers rev the crap out of it full time but from looks how do u tell).

Check out the speedway guys - like Oscar says about enduros,decibel meters were at speedway tracks in the 80s,now all speedway bikes have mufflers.When Ivan Major put on the long track at Claudlands about 10yrs ago he had everyone put a hugemungous car muffler on their speedway bikes,no complaints,and the speed of the bikes wasn't effected to much - 100mph on a trotting track is worth seeing anyway.To answer your question - the real motorsport guys show responsability.

Bob

29th July 2004, 00:40

Just thought I'd throw a couple of things into the debate.

Last year in Europe, the emissions regs were tightened so much that certain bikes were taken out of the marketplace. We're talking about bikes like the Fazer and CB500 here (and I think the ZX7R went to its grave for the same reason) amongst others. In 3 years time, the emissions regs here will get so tight that most bikes in current production will fail them.

The EU is putting pressure on US to fall in line. It'll happen eventually. So ALL bikes will be made meeting these regs.

Aside from the above - which'll see everyone being forced to have quieter, cleaner bikes (and there are threats of taxing older bikes that will not meet the new levels - effectively a 'pollution tax', so it'll cost you to ride a bike that isn't antiseptically clean.), only my point of view, but personally I'm happy to have a fairly quiet bike - quieter bike, more chance of being able to hear as I get older.

As someone else said, if you want to make a noise, hit your horn. If your horn isn't loud enough, why not fit a louder one? Damn sight cheaper than an aftermarket can.

If an aftermarket can meets the emissions regs and is louder than OE, then great. If it isn't road-legal, then apart from anything else, you just invalidated your insurance.

There was a recent article here about someone who had a really loud can on their bike... something that, lets face it, you can't really pick up on that well yourself when you are riding. So they were taken on track with an exhaust modified so that the RIDER was getting all the noise. Guess what? They didn't like it!

Not trying for a public service announcement here - but as a group us bikers really don't do ourselves any favours. It isn't the 'nice car' that gets remembered for making a noise when they scream through a town or village at twice the limit, it is the 'nasty bike' that will be mentioned in complaints.

For good or bad, we are still tarred with the same brush that was used in the 50s and 60s... and if we do our best to act up to it, we'll continue to suffer the consequences.

Just my viewpoint, for what it is worth.

Lou Girardin

29th July 2004, 06:45

I'm in two minds about the issue; on one hand there's nothing like certain loudish exhaust sounds, V's of all types, high revving 4's etc. Then I hear some twat with just a resonator on his Honda Civic or Rotary or a Harley with straight pipes and I just want them banned.
In the few times I've been in Oz, one very noticable thing was the absence of objectionably loud exhausts, it was very pleasant eating lunch outside without being deafened by screaming exhausts or thumping bass drivers.
If they do bring in Db testing, how are Ferrari's, Ducati's etc. going to pass?

Drunken Monkey

29th July 2004, 07:02

If they do bring in Db testing, how are Ferrari's, Ducati's etc. going to pass?

That's why the tests have to be performed at certain rpm ranges. You'll find that performance exhausts on European sports cars have, for a long time, been within the European rules (90 or 91 Db, I can't remember exactly) at the test rpm range. It's only under high rpm or large load that they exceed the number - precisely the point people have been making about _when_ a sports exhaust is loud.
There shouldn't be any reason for someone to not be able to run a pipe that meets the standard at 'normal use' rev ranges for city driving, but still allow the pipe(s) to have a suitable bark when at the track (or when you're galavanting around country roads). It's certainly not impossible, nor impractical for a test like this to be performed - and it is done this way in some countries.
In fact, you will see some OEM pipes with a standards stamp which states it meets this very standard (I once had an OEM RF600 exhaust put on an old gixxer - *ahem* don't ask!). It was a US standards met pipe, which did not exceed 89Db (on an RF600, I imagine) at the test rpm speed of x rpm.

Drunken Monkey

29th July 2004, 07:07

Check out the speedway guys -

That's becuase speedway used to be rediculously loud - you used to be able to hear it from 4 suburbs away, now you can only hear it from 2. I can hear Waikaraka park from Epsom and used to be able to hear Western Springs from our flat in Mt Eden. 2 suburbs is fine for a sport like speedway :)

Motu

29th July 2004, 07:47

That's becuase speedway used to be rediculously loud

All motorsport used to be ridiculessly loud,they will continue to tighten regs,bit by bit.I understand your cause about the noise level,but the exhausts and bikes with tested db levels stamped on are done at the manufacturers end,to do this in a cheap quick test for the consumer is an impossible task,much easier to just say it must comply with reg ****,everything is in place,they just have to say enough is enough.

merv

29th July 2004, 08:34

Actually the Kiwi Rider guys (John Nic in particular) were in the vanguard of the anti-noise push off-road, and I'm sure it has helped us to retain access to a lot of land over the years. I recall decibel meters being used at enduro's in the late '80's.

Yep, which I why I don't understand their attitudes to noisy pipes being recommended on road bikes.

NordieBoy

29th July 2004, 08:41

Yep, which I why I don't understand their attitudes to noisy pipes being recommended on road bikes.

Because in an enduro you are less likely to have someone in a Pajero do a u'ie in front of you.

Oscar

29th July 2004, 08:42

Yep, which I why I don't understand their attitudes to noisy pipes being recommended on road bikes.

Different guys. Vege & John are nuthin' to do with the editorial side these days.

merv

29th July 2004, 08:51

Different guys. Vege & John are nuthin' to do with the editorial side these days.

Yep realise that but the conflicting views for road and dirt are still written like that in the same mag these days.

Drunken Monkey

29th July 2004, 08:58

,to do this in a cheap quick test for the consumer is an impossible task,

Not impossible, just expensive. It's a cost people with stock exhausts should not and need not have to meet (it is a -stock- exhaust, anyway). It's a cost that people who wish to spend the extra money on an aftermarket exhaust will generally accept, and will have to accept if they wish to install an aftermarket silencer. No problem or practicality issues with that, surely?
A suggestion we put forth was for the exhaust fitter to include the cost & process of low volume modification certification in the fitting process. The result would be a tested aftermarket exhaust, that has been certified.

Motu

29th July 2004, 10:02

Well,haven't we just gone around in a circle - a modified exhaust will need a LVV cert....I have no problem with that,but those that just slap some can on (me with my home made mufflers for ex ) will be annoyed - as we have been seeing with all these posts.

Deano

29th July 2004, 10:25

As someone else said, if you want to make a noise, hit your horn. If your horn isn't loud enough, why not fit a louder one? Damn sight cheaper than an aftermarket can.

Like that is really practical - toot the horn everyone time you come up behind a vehicle and before entering intersections to let them know you're there - hey why not hardwire the thing so it is on constantly ?? :rolleyes:

If an aftermarket can meets the emissions regs and is louder than OE, then great. If it isn't road-legal, then apart from anything else, you just invalidated your insurance.

How would they know it doesn't meet relevant reg's ? There is no objective analysis being carried out at the moment. Bikes are also getting WOF's even though they would not meet noise reg's.

As far as invalidating your insurance - what effect does a louder pipe have in being a factor in an accident (or fire and theft) ?

Louder pipes would not invalidate insurance - Ive had insurance paid out despite not even having a warrant.

Deano

29th July 2004, 10:33

My case is simple - the more of us riding around with noisy pipes (justify them how you like), the sooner and harsher will be the legislation to quieten us down.

Oscar, why not put your money where your mouth is and do a poll on numbers of aftermarket exhausts.

Biker 'gangs' have generally had them for donkey's years.

Check out the bikes at the top of the Taka's on any fine weekend - I would say the majority have aftermarket exhausts. And louder than standard does not necessarily mean excessively loud, however noise is very subjective and one person's noisy exhaust is another's engineering symphony.

BTW - another factor worth mentioning is that people these days are much less tolerant of things such as noise. Why ? - pressures of modern day living, infill housing (what happened to the good old kiwi quarter acre) to name a couple.

People need to be less anal and get on with their lives, instead of making someone elses a misery, simply because they can, under the guise of a nuisance or decreased amenity.

Drunken Monkey

29th July 2004, 10:52

At 10:53AM NZT, 100% of Kiwi Bikers surveyed said they had louder than stock after market pipes fitted.

(the sample size was 1 = me! :P )

check out the new poll :)

Oscar

29th July 2004, 11:03

Oscar, why not put your money where your mouth is and do a poll on numbers of aftermarket exhausts.

Biker 'gangs' have generally had them for donkey's years.

Check out the bikes at the top of the Taka's on any fine weekend - I would say the majority have aftermarket exhausts. And louder than standard does not necessarily mean excessively loud, however noise is very subjective and one person's noisy exhaust is another's engineering symphony.

BTW - another factor worth mentioning is that people these days are much less tolerant of things such as noise. Why ? - pressures of modern day living, infill housing (what happened to the good old kiwi quarter acre) to name a couple.

People need to be less anal and get on with their lives, instead of making someone elses a misery, simply because they can, under the guise of a nuisance or decreased amenity.

The problem is that we have a Government that just knows better. Their whole social policy platform involves "saving us from ourselves", you know - no smoking in bars, a proposal to tax fast foods, that sort of thing. The fact of the matter is that noise pollution is on their agenda and they will act on it.

What we should avoid is the use of lame and illogical justifications for our vehicles being noiser than other road users. This makes us look less than serious.

What can we do? We can (as several people here have recommended) make representations on dB limts and try and make sure that the testing process is fair and equitable. What is inevitable in the long run, I believe, is the death of the aftermarket muffler on roadbikes - just look to California.

Oscar

29th July 2004, 11:05

Louder pipes would not invalidate insurance - Ive had insurance paid out despite not even having a warrant.

Correct. the insurer would have to prove that the muffler contributed to the accident in some way - Insurance Law Reform Act 1977.

Oscar

29th July 2004, 11:07

At 10:53AM NZT, 100% of Kiwi Bikers surveyed said they had louder than stock after market pipes fitted.

(the sample size was 1 = me! :P )

check out the new poll :)

My personal poll is 66.666%.
I have three bikes in the garage and two have aftermarket mufflers fitted.

Deano

29th July 2004, 11:59

Motu

29th July 2004, 12:24

From the VIRM - ''the exhaust system or silencer is so constructed or adapted that it can be readily interferred with'',that's under rejection by the way,not what you are allowd.

Mongoose

29th July 2004, 12:31

Some smart cookie will invent an electronic valve, that works similar to supertrapp mufflers, thus allowing instantaneous adjustment of noise levels produced.

"No officer, wasn't me, that horribly loud bike went the other way......"

What do ya reckon?...... Coldkiwi ?

Americans had these years ago for hot rods and years ago it was illegal to fit them in NZ. A solinoid operated a dump cap at the end of the collectors, cool idea I thought but the NZ Gov of the day thought not.

vifferman

29th July 2004, 12:52

Some smart cookie will invent an electronic valve, that works similar to supertrapp mufflers, thus allowing instantaneous adjustment of noise levels produced.

"No officer, wasn't me, that horribly loud bike went the other way......"

What do ya reckon?...... Coldkiwi ?Motorcycle Exhaust Specialists had a sports zorst that had an adjustable baffle in it, that I think operated via an allen key. Basically a disk-shaped baffle that either went across the muffler or parallel to the exhaust flow, I think. I enquired about it last year and they assured me it was legal, but ....??

Bob

30th July 2004, 05:32

Like that is really practical - toot the horn everyone time you come up behind a vehicle and before entering intersections to let them know you're there - hey why not hardwire the thing so it is on constantly ?? :rolleyes: .

You've never ridden in Spain then! They DO sound their horns at every intersection! :shifty:

Seriously, I use my horn a lot. On the main road and see someone starting to roll out from a side turning? They get a toot. Same on a rounabout if someone doesn't look like they've seen me. Reason for horn - at least in the UK regs, is to warn other road users of your presence. Which is how I use it.

I just wish more people over here would realise a horn is to issue a warning, not to abuse someone/let your mate know you have arrived at his house/support England (sorry, Eng-Er-Land) before they get knocked out of whichever kicking a ball contest they scraped into the finals of... :angry2:

But - innocent question - why do you need to make a loud noise coming up BEHIND a vehicle? If you're behind them, then you can see where they are, surely, and set yourself up for any manouvres in good time?

I don't think you're talking filtering - but I've had the situation where man in van got impatient and threw the wheel round, as I was about to start heading past. So I pulled in the clutch a little - still meant I was on my way fast enough to get round, but it also moved the volume of the exhaust note up into the heavens!

And that is on a stock exhaust system. Even with OE kit, if I need to make a loud noise, I can do it with ease.

How would they know it doesn't meet relevant reg's ? There is no objective analysis being carried out at the moment. Bikes are also getting WOF's even though they would not meet noise reg's.

Sorry, think this comes down to difference in regulations - and possibly my awareness of how things work in NZ. Over here in the UK, your end can is marked up with an approved standard for road use. If it doesn't have it, then it isn't road legal. Get pulled here and it is one of the first things that is inspected, after road tax disc.

Do you guys have to have your bikes checked over once a year, like our MOT? Anyone who fits a non-road-use can (I don't like using the term "illegal" - but the police do) here has to keep the OE one, so they can put it back on again for the MOT! Not a road legal can, MOT fail, can't get insurance or use the bike on the road.

As far as invalidating your insurance - what effect does a louder pipe have in being a factor in an accident (or fire and theft) ?

Louder pipes would not invalidate insurance - I've had insurance paid out despite not even having a warrant.

Again, possibly a difference in interpretation between UK and NZ. Have an accident and run anything not road legal - and especially if you fitted a non-legal piece of equipment to the bike without informing them - and an insurer is perfectly entitled to reject your claim. Of course, if you do inform them that you are fitting an item of equipment that is only valid for use on a track, then they will inform you that your bike is no longer valid for use on the road, so it is for track use only. Which probably invalidates your insurance only Sir, as it states quite clearly in the small print that you need special track insurance...

And I'm not making any of this up, honestly.

Another innocent question - how do they test sound levels there? In the EU, there is a specific rev rate at which they test - offhand I think it is 5,500 revs. So guess where there is a little dip in power? You guessed it...

Just wondered if you have a similar thing over there.

NordieBoy

30th July 2004, 08:29

Do you guys have to have your bikes checked over once a year, like our MOT?

6 monthly.

merv

30th July 2004, 08:43

6 monthly.

Actually its annually until the bike (or a car too) is 6 years old and 6 monthly after that. So you can get 7 years out of the annuals basically and when that last check done at just before your 6 years was up expires then your next WOF only lasts 6 months.

Coldkiwi

30th July 2004, 13:32

Another innocent question - how do they test sound levels there? In the EU, there is a specific rev rate at which they test - offhand I think it is 5,500 revs. So guess where there is a little dip in power? You guessed it...

Just wondered if you have a similar thing over there.

ahh, therein lies the problem. Until last year, nothing! There was a huge spate of publicised boy racer activity that generally involved high noise levels in suburban streets that got the politicians smelling votes. This seemed to lead into some very hurried draft legislation that was some of the most poorly researched acoustic advice I have ever seen and got manifested on the road as some police guidelines calling for VERY low limits when measured behind a vehicle at 3-4000 rpm. There were masses of illogical statements and holes in the guidelines and a blanket statement in the draft rules all of a sudden stating that 'exhausts shall be no louder than standard'.

This whole drama is due to a knee jerk response from vote seeking politicians and idiot police HQ trying to appear proactive. I rang the Police technical centre who do all the calibration/scientific anything that the cops need and they said they hadn't even been asked about these guidelines. in the same way, the guy writing the guidelines got his (apparently only) advice from a professor in early childhood hearing (no, I'm not making this up either!!).
From reading the international BS and ISO standards on the subject, I can only assume they decided it was too hard to do it properly and would instead issue instructions to HP officers like ' it is not necessary to have a sound level meter to determine whether the exhaust in question is appropriate or not'.

gee whiz.. I mean, I'll have what he's smoking!!

Deano, yeah, an instant baffle is quite possible but as Motu says, that sort of easily alterable adjustment is a no-no.

Skyryder

1st August 2004, 22:06

I'm with Dangerouse and his lot on this. There is nothing better than to give some wanker who has just cut you off, pulled out in front, or in some other way scared the shit out of you by there careless driving, a good old fashoined rev up and scare the shit out of them. Beats giving them the finger and safer too. I am patiently waiting for the day when I can purchase a pair of window shattering mufflers if for no other reason as a means to get my own back on crazy cagers and blast them off the road.

Skyryder

Bob

1st August 2004, 22:54

There is nothing better than to give some wanker who has just cut you off, pulled out in front, or in some other way scared the shit out of you by there careless driving, a good old fashoined rev up and scare the shit out of them.

Skyryder

This may amaze - given that I sound like I'm very much from the "why noisy cans" set - but I agree with you. Got undertaken the other day by some fool... so when the lights changed, I rolled up alongside, sat right by their window and... revved the bike to max revs whilst glaring at them (odd benefit of contact lenses - it seems my eyes can cope with getting dry, so I can go ages without blinking - very disconcerting to others). Obviously worked, as they kept shifting their gaze ANYWHERE but me.

But that said, I did it with a stock system on the bike - and it was still damned noisy!

I've also had someone go to suddenly dart down a side turning and pull out on me - whipped in clutch, revved engine to the heavens - so I still accellerated past, but put up a huge amount of noise (which stopped them in their tracks). Same bike, same OE system.

Guess what I'm trying to say here is you can still make a hell of a lot of noise if you want to (and once you're up at the top of the rev range even the quietest system is gonna put out some decibels), but in town having a quiet OE system means we're not getting singled out as "Those nasty bikers making lots of noise and being anti-social" - followed by more legislation by some bike-hating politico to restrict us even more.

Slight change of subject, but aiming in the same rough territory - speed limits in villages. If I see it is a 30mph limit, I slow to 29mph until signed to increase speed. Because I know at 30, my bike is p.d. quiet. By and large, it is usually car drivers here that ignore the town/village limits. Which was brilliantly proven. A village complained about all the nasty bikers screaming through their village at high speeds and making a noise. So they were given a speed camera and shown how to use it (they couldn't prosecute or book anyone themselves, but pass the details on to police for action to be taken).

Result? No bikes caught - just the villagers own cars!

The scheme was quietly dropped...

loosebruce

2nd August 2004, 01:46

How long have bikes been around with "loud" exhausts? How long have boy racers been around with "loud" exhausts, not as long as bikes have been that's for sure, all these laws and crap really only have started when the boy racer problem became a problem, all the laws are really aimed at the boy racer's themselves it just so happen's to inculde bikes in it as well, i don't really think the police round these parts would give a toss if his or her's twin or four was toooo loud, beside's like WT said bikes fitted with aftermarket exhausts are mainly only loud when given stick, and if you're giving a any bike stick in 50kph area's well you really deserve to get nicked. There's a couple of guys down my street one on a yoshi edtion gixxer 1100, beautiful bike that it is, a guy accross the road with a 996 with carbon termi's and me with my TL (even though i have factory pipes on at the mo) but none of us are worse than the fag with skyline across the road with his straight pipe that thinks it's cool to floor it whenever he leaves home at whatever time he leaves or the stupid amount of revs he use's to drive into the garage, senseless, that is the problem, that is who the police will target, not us. For sure there will be some anal cops who live to ping you everything but what can you do? The last few time i've uhhh stopped for the police they haven't even bothered checking my reg or wof, they don't even mention the near bald super corsa's on the back tyre or that i didn't have mirrors fitted at the time, when bikers become as bigger wankers as boy racers it will be time to worry, and that aint going to happen.
Thats my five cents worth anyway.
As for the rest of you on the loud pipes save lives saga :Playnice:

moko

2nd August 2004, 04:52

First off to clear up a couple of differences here that seem to be causing confusion,and to show the kind of half-arsed laws we`ve got that you might well be lumbered with.Every bike sold in Europe has to have a stamp to show it`s been tested by an official body for noise and pollution standards,anything else is illegal to run and fit.BUT Triumph,Aprilia,Harley and a couple of others will sell you "Not for road use" pipes,your dealer will fit these on from new forgetting that by doing so he is actually breaking the law by supplying a machine that is by our legal definition un-roadworthy.I`ve yet to hear of any dealer being prosecuted for this but it`s the law and they regularly break it.Then there`s the warranty which states in black and white that use of non-standard parts invalidates it,a minor detail these dealers dont point out and in truth the manufacturers seem to play the game as long as their own illegal exhausts are used and not someone else`s(!!).So you`ve got your illegal bike and you get stopped,well here it gets really good because except at specifically targetted places it`s highly un-likely that the police will have anything to measure the noise.I know plenty of people that have been stopped and the cop`s not looked at the exhaust despite booking them for other offences,other times a switched on Cop will check for the stamp and most likely outcome is a ticket telling you to present yourself and the bike at the specified cop-shop wearing a legal exhaust.If you dont/cant then you`re nicked.As Bob says non-stamped exhaust(and you can get legal aftermarket stuff quite easily) and it`s a straight M.O.T. failure,bikes over a certain age are exempt as the regs aren`t retrospective.stupid situation here is that many swap pipes for the M.O.T. then back again.Also insurance companies are now really hot about being told absolutely everything about the bike,anything non-standard no matter what has to be declared or your insurance is void,and if you tell them your exhaust isn`t stamped they wont insure you in the first place because according to the law it`s therefore not roadworthy.Insurance here is compulsory and you`re in deep shit if you get caught without it.My insurance cover is conditional on my bike being as stated and complying with all vehicle laws,most companies do this now.This gives the Police an added weapon should they choose a Draconian clampdown(which is far from the case)because they could easily sit by the side of any popular roadside in Summer and get literally hundreds of bikers off the road in one swoop.The most recent laws covered pollution and noise,the bikes it took out were ironically such bad-boy stuff as the Diversions and CB500`s of this world.As with the noise most cops dont carry any kind of pollution meters either so I sit behind a Taxi beching out black smoke from a busted exhaust kind of wondering why my bike is considered offensive in any way.Really stupid bit was typical EU law,dirt-bikes were exempt so Yamaha had to pull the XT600,considered a road bike and failing the tests as such,and sell the TT600 instead,considered a dirt bike and therefore totally legal:wacko:
Personally I dont see why people feel the need to draw attention to themselves,particularly if they speed as well,surely makes it more likely that you`ll get nicked if a cop 2 miles down the road hears you coming and has plenty of time to get ready for your appearance,he`ll just sit and wait while you let him know your e.t.a by the racket getting closer.I know all too many people who condemn all bikers because their experiences have been of packs of open-piped dorks screaming through their village at way over the speed limit rattling all the windows,they tar us all with the same brush and we get zero sympathy from them when it comes to complaints about "stupid legislation"I like to hear a bit of a bark myself but it`s the bloke`s who take things to extremes that will get everyone legislated against in the end,I`ve mentioned before the V-twin rider who several hundred people would gladly kick the crap out of if they caught him during one of his midnight "flypasts" round these parts.He`s the one they hear,he`s the one that wakes the kids up,sets off the car alarms and pisses everyone else.I ride a bike and I`m one of the ones gets my ears bent and told bikes are noisy and anti-social when mine is neither.Knowing governments as I do I`d say you`ve not got long before some kind of legislation,the original point of this post,if I`ve got it right is that the Govt are playing at consultation while it looks as if they`ve pretty much made their minds up,anyone who`s worked in British industry will be well aware of that one,we get "consultation" over work practice changes,consists of manager saying what they`re thinking about doing followed by a notice going up 3 weeks later saying that the changes have been brought in,bloody farce as they`ve already made up their minds what they`re going to do prior to any so-called consultation and it`s just going through the motions.

scumdog

2nd August 2004, 08:16

A couple of points: H-Ds in Aussie run smaller rear sprockets (or did the last I heard) to get the revs down for the mandatory "drive-past" test to comply with the ogre "ADR" sound level, I kid you not! hence the even more mediocre performance, also had a air restricter in the intake, use to be a large washer type thingy, people were taking these out to increase performance but the side effect was increase induction noise so the restricter became cast as part of the intake! :blah:

As to the official stamp on the muffler as moko was mentioning, hell for generations now the cheap buggers (most 'bike riders) have been gutting the core, noise level is up but the can/muffler looks stock :msn-wink:

NordieBoy

2nd August 2004, 08:50

As to the official stamp on the muffler as moko was mentioning, hell for generations now the cheap buggers (most 'bike riders) have been gutting the core, noise level is up but the can/muffler looks stock :msn-wink:

The old "Stick the crowbar down the pipe" trick.

NordieBoy

2nd August 2004, 08:53

Actually its annually until the bike (or a car too) is 6 years old and 6 monthly after that. So you can get 7 years out of the annuals basically and when that last check done at just before your 6 years was up expires then your next WOF only lasts 6 months.

I didn't know that but 2 of my bikes are 11 years old and one is 25.

moko

2nd August 2004, 09:30

A couple of points: H-Ds in Aussie run smaller rear sprockets (or did the last I heard) to get the revs down for the mandatory "drive-past" test to comply with the ogre "ADR" sound level, I kid you not! As to the official stamp on the muffler as moko was mentioning, hell for generations now the cheap buggers (most 'bike riders) have been gutting the core, noise level is up but the can/muffler looks stock :msn-wink:

HD arent alone with that kind of thing,Japs used to have really high 5th or 6th gears to get through similar tests on some bikes,the old XT600 would trash it`s gearbox if riders lugged around in it`s ridiculously high top at low revs,though it was fine for a short run past for example some guy with a noise meter.Later models still had the high top gear but beefed-up boxes,something I dug up on an XT forum when someone asked the resident guru why a trail bike was geared for a theoretical 112 m.p.h.Apparently some models have flat spots at the relevent revs as well to get through the tests,all of which makes them pretty pointless really but then I think newer tests cover a wider range of revs,what killed of a lot of "old favourites"
And as for gutting exhausts,I once ran an XS650 with zero silencing,totally gutted standard "silencers",now tampering with your exhausts in any way is illegal and a failure.

Motu

2nd August 2004, 10:18

You should try my XT400E which comes with 600E gearing,I can see why they chop out 5th.One tooth down on countershaft is too much for road riding,maybe I'll try a couple on the rear to make it a bit happier.

I don't think the guys here quite realise what's in store for them moko - I know these euro rules are coming,LTSA has just backed off to regroup,soon a bike will be complied with the standard exhaust,if the exhaust has change it no longer will comply,so no WoF,no warranty,no insurance - oh well,let's have fun while it lasts eh?

moko

2nd August 2004, 10:46

I don't think the guys here quite realise what's in store for them moko - I know these euro rules are coming,LTSA has just backed off to regroup,soon a bike will be complied with the standard exhaust,if the exhaust has change it no longer will comply,so no WoF,no warranty,no insurance - oh well,let's have fun while it lasts eh?

There are now quite a few manufacturers offering road-legal systems with removable baffles so all you have to do is take them out if you want some noise and bung them back in at M.O.T. time,though the noise thing still seems a bit juvenile and selfish to me so why bother?As I said,at the moment Brit cops dont as a rule carry noise metering equipment but that could all change and every now and again they have a blitz at a bike meet.Doubt if this`ll be very popular but I still think many bikers are their own worst enemy,ride around like you`re on a track and make sure everyone sees and hears you and it`s not exactly rocket-science that you`re going to piss people off.Pissed off people write to politicians and the media who are always up for bashing an easy target,and being a minority bikers are an easy target.

Wenier

2nd August 2004, 16:30

Jet engine at take off - 140dB.

Actually that would be 130dB for jet taking off

Oscar

2nd August 2004, 16:33

Actually that would be 130dB for jet taking off

Depends on if it had aftermarket mufflers fitted...

Coldkiwi

2nd August 2004, 18:05

Depends on if it had aftermarket mufflers fitted...

...and on where you were standing
...and on what sort of jet it was
... and on what sort of engines it had
...and on what the wind might've been doing

Don't bandy round dBA figures unless you know all the details ladies.... its about as meaningful as saying 'my bike is fast': doesn't give you any damn facts at all.

You see now why I got pissed off about the LTSA proposal that didn't take any of that rather important level of detail into consideration?

Wenier

2nd August 2004, 20:53

o sorry i was going by being at an airport and aircraft engineering knowledge my fault completely, but i think the correct distance u stand for recording it gives u 130. And well aftermarket mufflers arent really an issue unless you blow ya engine up and have to replace parts, most the engines make the same amount of noise if not less now. screw the wind

Oscar

2nd August 2004, 20:57

....... its about as meaningful as saying 'my bike is fast':

But my bike is fast...

dangerous

2nd August 2004, 21:11

But my bike is fast...

emmm... its not the only thing, he he he :msn-wink:
and fancy giving k14 a bad rep cos of me :angry:

Oscar

3rd August 2004, 08:54

emmm... its not the only thing, he he he :msn-wink:
and fancy giving k14 a bad rep cos of me :angry:

I gave him a bad rep because he's an opinionated little wanker who hasn't the balls to actually post on a subject - he'd rather whinge at you with this rep shit...

...apparently he took some exception to my comment above, regarding "my bike is fast". Obviously his sense of humour is impaired by whatever electroshock therapy he is currently undergoing.

Deano

3rd August 2004, 09:16

Regarding noise testing - My SP ran really rich with standard pipes, and had a 'flapper valve' that shut between about 4000 to 5500revs in order to pass noise tests.

Needless to say they are both now gone. muahahahahahaha

Like someone here before said, bikes (and cars) have had modified exhausts since the 50's at least. Remember Happy Days, American Graffitti ?

Screw all the moaning whingers. I bet there are things they do that piss others off as well. Learn to live together (without intentionally pissing people off by roaring up and down your street 50 times) and accept our differences. Keep it real.

k14

3rd August 2004, 09:50

I gave him a bad rep because he's an opinionated little wanker who hasn't the balls to actually post on a subject - he'd rather whinge at you with this rep shit...

ROFLMAO :killingme looks like you touched a raw nerve there d, keep :Pokey:

Oscar

3rd August 2004, 10:03

ROFLMAO :killingme looks like you touched a raw nerve there d, keep :Pokey:

Not at all.
At least he has an opinion and the ability to elucidate it.
Your contribution has been..........??
Gurly comments via PM's don't count.

dangerous

3rd August 2004, 18:46

I gave him a bad rep because he's an opinionated little wanker who hasn't the balls to actually post on a subject - he'd rather whinge at you with this rep shit...
Obviously his sense of humour is impaired by whatever electroshock therapy he is currently undergoing.
Shit man I've meet him and that aint the half of it :2thumbsup .......fuk he's 19 what the hell do you expect?
I do not form opions of anybody till I've meet them, I dont think that that would be fair. Like I said I have meet k14 and as my boys/apprentices at work are in the same age bracket compaired to them k14 is not any of the above you mentioned I have a lot of time for him he asks questions and listens.
I cant be the only Kber that thinks this, as there is another that has offered him a race bike for an upcomming event (I hiff something at him if he even looks at mine)

Gurly comments via PM's don't count.
Now remember that this goes both ways..... It wasent him that p/m 'get a real bike or called names like Knobend..... is that like the thing on the end of ya clip on? and lets not forget the 'pompous Git' remark.... mind you I like that one as you can see, I have adopted it on my sigy :rolleyes:

ps: ummm.... so would a real bike be a over weight chock chasing under powered excuse for a road bike? (TDM) :whistle: :msn-wink: *funs like fuk and doesent look back*

Oscar

3rd August 2004, 20:08

Shit man I've meet him and that aint the half of it :2thumbsup .......fuk he's 19 what the hell do you expect?
I do not form opions of anybody till I've meet them, I dont think that that would be fair. Like I said I have meet k14 and as my boys/apprentices at work are in the same age bracket compaired to them k14 is not any of the above you mentioned I have a lot of time for him he asks questions and listens.
I cant be the only Kber that thinks this, as there is another that has offered him a race bike for an upcomming event (I hiff something at him if he even looks at mine)

Now remember that this goes both ways..... It wasent him that p/m 'get a real bike or called names like Knobend..... is that like the thing on the end of ya clip on? and lets not forget the 'pompous Git' remark.... mind you I like that one as you can see, I have adopted it on my sigy :rolleyes:

ps: ummm.... so would a real bike be a over weight chock chasing under powered excuse for a road bike? (TDM) :whistle: :msn-wink: *funs like fuk and doesent look back*

Jeez, you guys really need to get out more.
I use one vaguely insulting remark "What a bunch of Dorks", and several people here go hell bent to prove it. Actually I stand by the remark - anyone who honestly believes that loud pipes have some sort safety benefit are not only deluded, they are gradually making sure that life will become more difficult for the rest of us.

Both of my comments that you refer to above were in reply to input recieved. Don't dish it out if you can't take it ( and judging by the amount of bleating I have recieved from your boyfriend about his bike, he is somewhat sensitive about it). The insult is one commonly traded between dirt riders and road squids up this way.

Ps. I love my TDM - it's a dirt rider's road bike (and it don't stay on the seal that much anyway).

http://oscar.smugmug.com/photos/542521-M-1.jpg

dangerous

3rd August 2004, 20:21

Jeez, you guys really need to get out more.
I use one vaguely insulting remark "What a bunch of Dorks", and several people here go hell bent to prove it. Actually I stand by the remark - anyone who honestly believes that loud pipes have some sort safety benefit are not only deluded, they are gradually making sure that life will become more difficult for the rest of us.

Both of my comments that you refer to above were in reply to input recieved. Don't dish it out if you can't take it ( and judging by the amount of bleating I have recieved from your boyfriend about his bike, he is somewhat sensitive about it). The insult is one commonly traded between dirt riders and road squids up this way.
Good on ya :2thumbsup hook line and sinker..... I want my boy friend to get bigger tits I'll pay.... but he wont do it :stupid:

There are noisy pipes and NOISY pipes the likes of my pipes will not make life more difficult for any one its the open pipes that will, and theres not that many of them about.
Or more inportantly its all in the way that they are used.

Now that bitch of mine must have tea done by now :thud: