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bikemike
6th January 2007, 23:57
I had an interesting miss-a-beat moment today, when turning across to join a petrol station forecourt. I moved into the median strip while indicating right, an oncoming ute indicated left and gave a further signal by pulling to the left -- all of which I interpreted as a move to take the side road immediately before the servo.

It wasn't. Just as I engaged to turn in I realised he wasn't slowing sufficiently and was in fact pulling in for fuel also. All panned out OK, we both saw each other and took the appropriate action, but I thought I'd share it for discussion.


I have always believed and practised that a turn signal should be given at the appropriate time, and that is not necessarily three seconds or any other number of seconds prior to the manoeuvre. First and foremost an indication is a signal to other road users, it is not an act of faith or deed of rote. I get the feeling our road code teaches this quite the wrong way. Any kind of rule which fixes a certain speed or certain duration is highly likely to allow shallow thinking folk to miss the whole point of the exercise and to completely misconstrue the safety or danger in any particular situation. Even the two and four second 'rule' which I always use to recalibrate myself is misleading if you stop thinking about it.

In this case, especially as the ute had no following vehicles (else I would not have engaged...) the driver should have indicated after his possible entry point to the side road but before his turn onto the forecourt, in practice for about one second! In reality, he followed at least one part of the road code which says indicate for at least three seconds or at least three seconds before your manoeuvre.

Sometimes the absence of indication leaves us in the safety position, other times it leaves us in the danger position.

Same with the presence of an indication. In this case the presence of the indication tempted me to put myself in a danger position. So at all times it pays to remember that firstly an indication only means the bulb works and secondly, use all cues/signals and don't count on anything until the other guy is actually making his manoeuvre and you are safe.

Thinking through other possible outcomes... Given that I was still rolling, my right signal could have been misread by the ute driver to mean that I was turning into the side road and not the petrol station. In which case if the oncoming ute driver was in fact turning into the side road as I had originally thought, he would / should have slowed to give way to me. In the case that he did have someone following, that following vehicle would likely have swerved right to go around and then come into direct conflict with me, waiting patiently and cautiously in the median strip to see for sure that the ute driver would turn left and for the oncoming vehicle to clear ... oh fuck he's heading for me...we see this all the time eh.

If I was stopped waiting to turn, then I may not have time to evade the oncoming driver swerving into my path.

If I was still rolling, but wishing to turn for fuel, then whilst I may have been able to evade the oncoming swerver, if someone following me mistook my turn and position signals to mean I was taking the side road, and misjudged my speed or deceleration (as I am slowing for the petrol forecourt entrance, which is before where he wants to go) he might easily rear end me.

All of which leads me to wonder, if in this particular scenario I would be safer taking the Exit as my Entrance?

You see, I always treat petrol station forecourts as roundabouts. Not in the parroted three seconds or 100 k kind of way, but in the 'always drive on the left' and 'go round a roundabout clockwise' kind of way. It almost always seems so much neater and safer, not to mention polite. To enter the forecourt the wrong way into the path of drivers who are still fiddling with their wallets, ice creams or hot coffees, whilst also belting up and getting their bearings again does not seem inviting. If I had taken the Exit as my Entrance I would have had another 15 to 20 metres between me and the junction and the ute driver would not have been an issue... until we faced each other in the fuel lane...

It seems the best option would have been to take the side road, turn around, and join the forecourt with a left turn, thereby sticking to my clockwise rule, albeit making a meal of it.

What would you do and do you treat forecourts like roundabouts, or fire on in any which way?

And what would you do if you were the ute driver? Would you indicate three seconds before, or would you wait until you passed the side road on your left?

Ixion
7th January 2007, 00:06
In ambiguous situations I will sometimes give a few quick preliminary flicks before the "decoy" turning (the side road in your example). Just enough to signal "I am going to do something" but not enough to be a clear indication. Then switch to "normal" indication as soon as I am past the "decoy".

I also back up the indicators with hand signals : left;right;straight ahead. I recommend this for bikes. It is difficult for cages , right is easy but left and striaght ahead are hard to see.

But for us, it is easy. In the example, flick the indicator once or twice before the side road, and give a "straight ahead" hand signal.Pretty clear. Then once past the side road, left indicator or, left hand signal. And a stop signal if appropriate.

The stop signal is particulary useful (and cages should use it too), because ONCOMING traffic can see it and know that you are (really) stopping. With brake lamps, only those behind you know what you are doing. It is also useful to distinguish between "I am slowing down, but will keep going" and "I am STOPPING- NOW!".

Good things, hand signals.

Disco Dan
7th January 2007, 00:07
What would you do and do you treat forecourts like roundabouts, or fire on in any which way?


On bike - mount the foot path and enter petrol station on left.
In Car - Turn anyway, with the "people will stop, they dont want to hit me" attitude.

BTW - Very well written! 9/10 :innocent:

Drum
7th January 2007, 00:17
Indicators mean very little to cagers, I prefer some kind of eye contact to confirminate their intentions.

Steam
7th January 2007, 08:30
Forcourt's Pendulum

Haha, you are a nerd, making references to Foucault's Pendulum.
Proof of the rotation of the earth! Motion in action!
More nerdy references please.

bikemike
7th January 2007, 11:28
I also back up the indicators with hand signals : left;right;straight ahead. I recommend this for bikes. It is difficult for cages , right is easy but left and striaght ahead are hard to see.

Good point Ixion. I do use hand signals, though usually in the case of giving a clear signal to someone following who may not have seen my indicator.

Taking the role of the ute driver, I'm not sure that I would do as you say though. I think I would skip the turn signal until the last second, that would give the bike rider the clearest signal (I'm probably coming right through, so don't even think about it...) though I would give a brake signal if I was having to leave my indication so late and I had another vehicle following.


More nerdy references please.
Haha, someone is awake :yes:, Steam, but I really wanted to know whether other bikers circulate the forecourt in the same direction as a roundabout or if they go ad hoc.

Still keen to hear some more on that.

rainman
7th January 2007, 12:01
Good things, hand signals.

I used to live down the side of a ridge in Carlisle Rd in Browns Bay (for those that know the area) and the driveway entrance at the top was just after an intersection (the skew junction thingy heading down towards BBay, can't remember the name if it has one - links up with Beach Rd). Coming down the Deep Creek rise from the Torbay end wanting to turn into our drive was a major challenge. If I indicated early then traffic waiting at the intersection wanting to turn in front of me thought I was turning left into the road, so they would pull out in front of me. If I indicated late, they'd often try to slipstream close in behind me, to find I was stopping rather sharply to turn left in front of them. (Much excitement ensued, of course). Also, if I indicated early then traffic in Deep Creek wanting to turn across me thought I was turning into the road not the drive, so they had right of way under that silly right hand turning rule thingy that we seem to have around these parts.

After a while I tried using hand signals - not gentle little "turning left now" wavey things, but "I'm going into that driveway, THAT one, the one I'm POINTING at and jabbing my finger in the air at, no I'm not turning down the road you stupid git, and you on the right, wait, OK, I'm going in front of you, aaaarrrrggghh!" type handsignals.

Didn't have any actual crashes, but way too many near misses. In the end it was just easier to move house.

Waylander
7th January 2007, 12:17
What I got out of that is that you worry to much. And that cagers seem to actually use thier indicators where you are.

bikemike
8th January 2007, 22:35
You're confusing worrying with thinking. No harm in thinking about it, much good comes from planning these things.

If I was worried about it I'd have given up long ago.

So how about those forecourts? Don't be shy.

Another thought. Doesn't coming in via the 'Exit' have more risk of coming off whilst braking on a spill. Overfilled and/or uncapped vehicles leaving will spill in the most commonly used direction, which may or may not be clockwise....

Ixion
8th January 2007, 23:14
Shrug. I just go in whichever way is nearest and head for the nearest vacant pump by the most direct route. I don't ride a bike to have to bother with cage conventions. If I'm on the ffwabbit I may well not even bother with the official entrances or exits at all.

90s
24th January 2007, 09:17
Haha, you are a nerd, making references to Foucault's Pendulum.
Proof of the rotation of the earth! Motion in action!
More nerdy references please.

Could this also be the first Umberto Eco reference in the KBworld?
I thought us bikers should just all be greasy Kerowhackers?

jrandom
24th January 2007, 10:02
Could this also be the first Umberto Eco reference in the KBworld?

And hopefully the last.

The man is pretentious and overrated. His novels aren't without merit, but he doesn't deserve to to be put on a shelf beside Pynchon and Joyce, as is commonly claimed by faux-literati dilettantes.

Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)
24th January 2007, 11:07
I must admit that lately I have been using hand signals as well as indicators - mainly in situations where I just don't think cages have seen me and they have been busy intersections at times.

I also agree that at times, it is not safe to indicate!! I intuitively know those occasions.

If a cage is indicating (it does sometimes happen!!) I never take it for granted that they will turn - I wait until they are physically turning.

TLDV8
24th January 2007, 19:23
I had an interesting miss-a-beat moment today, when turning across to join a petrol station forecourt. I moved into the median strip while indicating right, an oncoming ute indicated left and gave a further signal by pulling to the left -- all of which I interpreted as a move to take the side road immediately before the servo.

When my life depends on it i prefer to see what another driver is going to do via a positive move.
In that case if the Ute had indicated,slowed and started turning into the side street i would have then completed my turn into the petrol station.
Perhaps another scenario is a car is waiting to turn left out of the same petrol station,they see a vehicle to their right on the medium indicating right,summise it is coming into the station..They pull out as the other vehicle does a U turn into them.
A few extra seconds may save elevated heart rates or perhaps worse.
I have had enough scares over the years to change my outlook on what might or might not happen.

BarBender
24th January 2007, 19:31
I must admit that lately I have been using hand signals as well as indicators...

I've been using heaps of hand signals on the road too like :nono:, :tugger: and my favourite :finger:

Hey Shirl...How are ya babe? Glad to hear you got back safe and sound. As you can tell just got back from the pub. :drinknsin

bikemike
24th January 2007, 21:20
Could this also be the first Umberto Eco reference in the KBworld?
No, Jean Bernard Leon Foucault, as noted by Steam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Foucault

Who has time to read novels anyway..?

hamie1
24th January 2007, 21:38
Is it just cocks in BMW's? I pulled into a Shell Station yesterday on a bright red bike. I looked at him he looked at me (not in a gay way) then he pulled out... "ah!" I went... "shit!" he went and his missus hit him. I was close enough to see this! And I pull into the service station and he goes on his merry way...

BarBender
24th January 2007, 21:53
Is it just cocks in BMW's? I pulled into a Shell Station yesterday on a bright red bike. I looked at him he looked at me (not in a gay way)then he pulled out... "ah!" I went... "shit!" he went and his missus hit him. I was close enough to see this! And I pull into the service station and he goes on his merry way...

What??..He pulled out his dick?? :scratch:

hamie1
24th January 2007, 23:39
Anyone driving a BMW is sure to have a small dick... so why should I complain? Just go around him... is that what you are saying?

Daffyd
28th January 2007, 20:36
I hate stopping on the chevrons. It makes me feel vulnerable. In the original case I would have turned into the sideroad, hung a uey and come out on the correct side of the road to enter the forecourt. Or, if I was familiar with the area maybe turned a block earlier and gone around the block.