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Hans
7th January 2007, 11:56
Howdy everyone,

Just came across some really important info on one of the sites linked in the survival forum, so i thought I'd quote some of it:

"In the case of fatal accidents, there was one more important discovery in the Hurt Report: There were essentially no deaths to helmeted riders from head injuries alone.

Some people in the study, those involved in truly awful, bone-crushing, aorta-popping crashes, did sustain potentially fatal head injuries even though they were wearing helmets. The problem was that they also had, on average, three other injuries that would have killed them if the head injury hadn't.

In other words, a crash violent enough to overwhelm any decent helmet will usually destroy the rest of the body as well. Newman put this into perspective. "In most cases, bottoming [compressing a helmet's EPS completely] is not going to occur except in really violent accidents. And in these kind of cases, one might legitimately wonder whether there is anything you could do."

In my book this means that the rest of your riding gear is just as important as your helmet. If not more. And I know that I didn't always realize that, especially when I was a bit younger. Anyway, that's my 2cents' worth.

Ixion
7th January 2007, 12:01
So what gear will prevent aorta rupture?

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:03
A foam boiler suit.

scumdog
7th January 2007, 12:13
Not actually moving??:dodge:

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:16
Which should put you on kiwisofarider.co.nz. And by the way, the holy rollers would argue with you, that life IS a rehearsal.

scumdog
7th January 2007, 12:23
Which should put you on kiwisofarider.co.nz. And by the way, the holy rollers would argue with you, that life IS a rehearsal.

To hijack the thread a little: I've never had anybody yet come up to me and say "Shee-it man, I made sooo many screw-ups last life but now I've got it sorted after the last rehearsal" so I guess the holy rollers are just guessing?

But back on topic: How much armour/padding etc do you need to wear before you can be confident of binning and ending up unscathed??

I guess generally it's all up to personal preferance balanced with practicality eh?

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:26
I can't disagree with what you say...

James Deuce
7th January 2007, 12:27
You can't protect yourself from the internal organ damage generated by rapid negative acceleration. You can only protect the body's biggest organ, your skin, and possibly your bones.

Ixion
7th January 2007, 12:33
One point worth bearing in mind (and a reason why helmets are compulsary and other stuff not), is that even a relatively mild head injury that does not kill you (or anywhere near it), can still leave you totally buggered for the rest of your life.

Other non-fatal injuries, you usually get more or less recovered. And even if they leave you crippled, in a wheelchair, say, you can still go on to have a reasonably decent life . Whereas head trauma can leave you totally f**ked, not even really functioning on a human being level.

(I am aware that many injuries never completely heal, and that many can have life long associated health problems. I'm not minimising that, just pointing out that usually it's not as bad as being a vegetable)

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:37
Once again, I agree, the point being that I'd much rather end up with internal organ damage, which although it sounds nasty, can be recovered from to a reasonable extent /unless it's a ripped off aorta or the likes/ than a neurological injury such as a severed spinal canal or other vegetable-producing injuries. In that case I'm not so sure i'd want to survive anyway. Hence all the back protectors etc...

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:41
Amen to that, Ixion. And btw, here is an interesting article as well:

http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

Motu
7th January 2007, 12:44
But I think how you look is most important,no one is going to wear silly looking protective gear.Now,if it makes them look something they are not,something that other people admire - then yes they will wear it,and more importantly....to pay a fortune for it.

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:46
This is no fun. We have to find a topic on which we actually DISAGREE :-B

scumdog
7th January 2007, 12:47
True Motu, and the fashion m/c clothing types won't be making their fortunes out of THIS guy.

Hans
7th January 2007, 12:48
They wouldn't be making money off me even if I actually had it.

Lucy
7th January 2007, 15:36
Is it just me? I read the first post of this thread and took it to mean that you may as well not wear a helmet, because the other injuries would have killed you anyway.

Motu
7th January 2007, 15:57
As someone who has ridden over several decades....from just wearing street clothes,ordinary shoes,T shirts,no gloves or helmets....to wearing every damn bit of protective gear I can strap on my body - I am concerned at how physically constrained I am now.While not exactly a gymnast,I do consider I had pretty good reflexes and could damn near land on my feet like a cat when thrown.Now with all my armour and padding I feel like a dull witted slow moving thug,I can't lift my arms above my shoulders,my neck has limited movement and can hardly move at the waist.

But I still ride my trials bike in jeans and T shirt,good boots and light helmet.I feel much more confident with my body,and when I take a tumble can take avoiding action,tumble and roll etc,get my bike out of tough spots.Wearing armour I hit the deck like a sack of coal.I wonder if this is also contributing to injuries....can't get out of our own way.

Hans
7th January 2007, 17:16
Is it just me? I read the first post of this thread and took it to mean that you may as well not wear a helmet, because the other injuries would have killed you anyway.

Yeah in the most extreme cases. But what it really means is, that when you take a slightly less serious hit, you might croak because the you have a perfectly healthy head and a broken back.

James Deuce
7th January 2007, 17:22
Once again, I agree, the point being that I'd much rather end up with internal organ damage, which although it sounds nasty, can be recovered from to a reasonable extent /unless it's a ripped off aorta or the likes/ than a neurological injury such as a severed spinal canal or other vegetable-producing injuries. In that case I'm not so sure i'd want to survive anyway. Hence all the back protectors etc...

Errr - no you don't. Lacerated liver - pray you don't sever the artery feeding it. Kidney injuries - like dialysis do we? Spleen goes pop - on drugs for life and you die if you sever even the smallest artery. Ask Stonechucker about lacerating your aorta and detaching your heart from your chest wall. He was one of a tiny percentage of people who suffer that injury and survive. Nerve damage? Ask me and OAB how that is to live with. There have been times when I haven't wanted to keep living.

No organ damage is is preferable to bony injuries. Your bones are designed to break to protect muscles, soft tissue and internal organs. Bones are easy to fix and even when you are reduced to say 10% movement in your ankle after breaking your tibia and fibula just above the ankle joint (common motorcyclist injury), or even losing a foot due to poor circulation is preferable to going on a waiting list for a kidney transplant.

98tls
7th January 2007, 17:24
interesting stuff..........fwiw i cant understand leather stuff without the body armour.........ive got a crook elbow and knee from seperate bike accidents years ago..sure the leather saved a bit of skin but simple armour in the elbow and knees like i have now could have saved me a lot of pain over the years............

Jeff Sichoe
7th January 2007, 18:01
I own the gear, but when pottling around the City I usually flag putting my gear on, stick with the helmet, gloves for the low-speed / distance work-home run.

But yeah, if I know i'm going to be riding for a while i'll chuck all my stuff on.

Edbear
7th January 2007, 18:24
Well far be it from me to start the disagreeing! I support the ATGATT philosophy, All The Gear, All The Time! At my age I appreciate living and mobility and I really want to do my best to avoid stuffing that up! So I may not have ther flashest gear, but it's modern, armoured and hopefully I won't try it out!

Having come out of a wheelchair and 6 years off work, spending 22hrs a day in bed, taking 16 pills a day plus injecting myself for recurrent migraines - getting a second chance at life kinda focuses you as to what's really important!

I never thought I'd walk again and while it's been a long hard road back, I'm determined to be an active husband and father for as long as I possibly can. So I ride with care while enjoying the performance only motorcycling can give you. Each ride is undertaken with the goal of coming home the same way I left. I'm off for a tiki-tour tomorrow as my wife goes back to work while I still have one more week off. I'll be back by Friday as she only works 4 days and we might go off together, (hey, that sounds like a good idea...:innocent: ), for a 3-day weekend before I go back to work!

James Deuce
7th January 2007, 18:38
Is it just me? I read the first post of this thread and took it to mean that you may as well not wear a helmet, because the other injuries would have killed you anyway.


Yeah in the most extreme cases. But what it really means is, that when you take a slightly less serious hit, you might croak because the you have a perfectly healthy head and a broken back.

Hans, you've got it Arse Backward.

You've completely inverted the intent and meaning of the Hurt report.

Your body can take repairable hits that your head can't. So wear a helmet.

Hans
7th January 2007, 18:44
Would you like me to have it arse frontward? I never said a thing about not wearing a helmet. Please find the place where I even implied anything like that. Of course you HAVE to wear one.

James Deuce
7th January 2007, 18:48
Umm - in the quote I used. If your intent was different then it didn't make it through my comprehension filter. Sorry.

You only HAVE to wear a helmet thanks a law passed due to 12 year olds riding 750s with no brakes and spaghetti frames in the '70s.

Hans
7th January 2007, 18:50
You only HAVE to wear a helmet thanks a law passed due to 12 year olds riding 750s with no brakes and spaghetti frames in the '70s.


Those are fun. No problems at all. Right at the beginning of the thread I was just pointing out how important all the gear is.

86GSXR
7th January 2007, 19:12
Hey Hans, got that motor fixed yet? I saw a guy out today wearing nothing but jeans, tee shirt, boots and helmet. I thought God mate, I hope you don't come off. Very tempting in this weather, but what if?

XP@
8th January 2007, 08:45
The solution is obvious : You need an airbag!
Whilst it will have it's limitations, and is probably a bit of a pain to plug in, todays jacket is a start in an interesting direction.

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motorcycle-air-bag/

In a few years we could be riding down the road, make a mistake and end up hitting the ground in a zorb style protective bubble... now how fast would I go if I had one of those???

ManDownUnder
8th January 2007, 09:00
I own the gear, but when pottling around the City I usually flag putting my gear on, stick with the helmet, gloves for the low-speed / distance work-home run.

But yeah, if I know i'm going to be riding for a while i'll chuck all my stuff on.

How do you choose which rides you're going to have an accident on?

James Deuce
8th January 2007, 09:11
Bear in mind Jeff that most accidents happen in a pretty tight radius around either the place you start your ride from, or your destination.

Edbear
8th January 2007, 09:12
How do you choose which rides you're going to have an accident on?



Absolutely! Statistics show most accidents occur within 20km of home! Even a low speed off is most likely gonna hurt!

scumdog
8th January 2007, 09:41
Absolutely! Statistics show most accidents occur within 20km of home! Even a low speed off is most likely gonna hurt!

True dat!

But then the statistics DON'T mention that for a lot of people the major amount of riding/driving IS within 20km of home....

Squeak the Rat
8th January 2007, 09:45
Trust me, even relatively minor head injuries suck.

Apart from anything else it's hard always being 10 posts behind in a thread.

Disco Dan
8th January 2007, 10:21
Bear in mind Jeff that most accidents happen in a pretty tight radius around either the place you start your ride from, or your destination.


thats right, usually the 'quick trip up the dairy' - 5 min from you home is the most common time for accidents!

When you nip up the road for bread or milk or smokes or whatever, it is very tempting to just throw on your helmet and gloves and go...

Wear all the gear. All the time.

Trudes
8th January 2007, 10:51
Everytime I go on a long trip on my bike I ride fairly well the whole way until the second to last corner on my way home, I always run wide on it, or just about fall off going down my driveway.(Just some pointless info for you all)

ceebie13
8th January 2007, 11:27
Everytime I go on a long trip on my bike I ride fairly well the whole way until the second to last corner on my way home, I always run wide on it, or just about fall off going down my driveway.

If you're like me Trudi, it's cos I'm usually busting for a piss!

bluninja
8th January 2007, 23:50
True dat!

But then the statistics DON'T mention that for a lot of people the major amount of riding/driving IS within 20km of home....

Funny that; all my daily rides start within 20km of home and end within 20km of home :yes: Perhaps I should catch a bus and collect my bike 20kms from home to avoid the majority of potential accidents.

On a slight tangent.....Motu said that wearing all his gear restricted his movement....so which is safer...lowering the chances of crashing? or increasing the chances of walking away from a crash unscathed. Perhaps coccooning ourselves in more protective gear means some people believe they can go faster and take more risks cos they're protected.

In an ideal world we'd have both, but given it isn't we have to compromise. Sometimes wearing less (restrictive) protective equipment may help to keep you shiny side up.

Final word on accident stats....my only crash was 70kms from home...I'm a statistical blip...an individual...I don't crash like everybody else.:third:

Ixion
8th January 2007, 23:57
I wonder if anyone has ever thought of fitting motorcycles with an ejector seat. If things go pear shaped, just pull the handle, and - whoomph, you're up and away, clear out of danger, floating gently down again on the built in parachute, completely unscathed. Add a lanyard and you can be ejected automatically.

There, now! The way of the future.

bluninja
9th January 2007, 00:07
Sounds awesome. Just don't have an accident in an underground carpark....and be careful where you're pointed on monos and stoppies....be a bit embarrasing to be shot backwards through the screen of the car you've just passed on the back wheel.

Hmmmm lowsides could be a tad interesting on a right hander.

Motu
9th January 2007, 06:28
Some teething problems can be expected,however we are working through them.Unfortunatly we have also worked through our supply of test riders....

Lorax
9th January 2007, 19:15
Here is a bear proof suit :yes: . That'll protect you. No hinges can move more than your body's hinges can. Seen them on tv. Bloody hilarious shit!

Finn
9th January 2007, 19:30
I can't lift my arms above my shoulders,my neck has limited movement and can hardly move at the waist.

It might just be old age setting in.

MD
10th January 2007, 09:17
You only HAVE to wear a helmet thanks a law passed due to 12 year olds riding 750s with no brakes and spaghetti frames in the '70s.


Oh thanks Jim, blame me!
And for the record my part was to ride and crash test those 750s - I didn't design or build them to crash.

On the protective gear subject I think impact is our biggest enemy nowadays. Modern gear near enough eliminates the abrasive damage but nothing short of an ejector seat or zorb bubble as suggested will every save us hitting a lamp post at anything above 50kph. An ejector seat would atleast ensure we get a good view before we hit the top of the lamp post- the 5m fall to the ground wont be to kind though.
I think there have probably been many lives lost where jumping high off the bike might have avoided the death causing solid impact.
The ejector seat with a mini parachute sounds silly but think about it. Where is safe space when you are about to crash into something..can't go under a car, left or right of it..what's left.. upward

kevfromcoro
10th January 2007, 16:38
I wonder if anyone has ever thought of fitting motorcycles with an ejector seat. If things go pear shaped, just pull the handle, and - whoomph, you're up and away, clear out of danger, floating gently down again on the built in parachute, completely unscathed. Add a lanyard and you can be ejected automatically.

There, now! The way of the future.

ejector seat..i live on the thames coast..its full of pohutakawa trees.if i ejected my self out here..i would be in a tree,,head first...hmm ,,might work on a beach..wouldent want to do it in queen street.....might end up on the sky tower...good thought though...regards KEV

davereid
11th January 2007, 08:42
On the protective gear subject I think impact is our biggest enemy nowadays. Modern gear near enough eliminates the abrasive damage but nothing short of an ejector seat or zorb bubble as suggested will every save us hitting a lamp post at anything above 50kph.


Dead Right !

The debate over Helmets and other gear has raged for years ! I'm old enough to have ridden legally without a helmet, and I admit that I've done a few illegal miles without a helmet too.

When helmets were introduced we were promised massive saving of lives etc etc, none of which occured.

The reality is helmets are a FINE idea - they are great at keeping bugs out of your eyes, they keep your head warm in the rain, and if you scrape down the road on your chin you get to show your buddys your helmet marks, instead of your facial scars.

But if you whack your head on a lamp-post the helmet may offer less protection than you think. The Helmet protects against impacts by giving you an extra inch of decleration time. Thats it. Thats all it can do.

Its useful for only a very small range of accident speeds, as the injuries that damage the brain result from the brain rattling around the skull - not from "split open heads".

So - Wear your helmet, its a fantastic tool for improving your survival chances. But DONT COUNT ON IT. - Ride around every corner expecting a Cow, Tractor, puddle of oil or a lost 4 year old to be right in your way.

The bigest safety tool is not worn, its your skill and your wits !

rwh
11th January 2007, 10:28
But if you whack your head on a lamp-post the helmet may offer less protection than you think. The Helmet protects against impacts by giving you an extra inch of decleration time. Thats it. Thats all it can do.

Not quite. It will also spread the load over a larger part of your head, reducing the pressure on any single point. My guess is that that is more significant than the inch of deceleration, but that's purely a guess. It probably won't help so much with the rattling of your brain, but might stop your skull cracking (depending on the force of the impact etc etc).

Richard

rwh
11th January 2007, 10:32
An ejector seat would atleast ensure we get a good view before we hit the top of the lamp post- the 5m fall to the ground wont be to kind though.

Never mind - you might get electrocuted before you have a chance to fall.

Ejecting under Wellington's trolley bus wires would be interesting too.

Richard

The Stranger
11th January 2007, 10:53
I feel like a dull witted slow moving thug,I can't lift my arms above my shoulders,my neck has limited movement and can hardly move at the waist.


Hmm, there could be another explanation for this.

ManDownUnder
11th January 2007, 10:59
Hmm, there could be another explanation for this.

...bondage??

Motu
11th January 2007, 11:16
In truth I am a dull witted slow moving thug - I was hoping no one would notice the slip....

davereid
11th January 2007, 12:35
Nah thats not fair Motu - I don't think you're a thug...

Hans
11th January 2007, 16:24
Dead Right !
But if you whack your head on a lamp-post the helmet may offer less protection than you think. The Helmet protects against impacts by giving you an extra inch of decleration time. Thats it. Thats all it can do. !

Dead wrong. Not only does it spread the area, it dissipates the energy your head is carrying by turning it into heat, it does this through the internal friction of the polystyrene inner when it deforms. And by the way that inch you were talking about, it is an "extra inch" but it is also the only inch you're going to get as opposed to just hitting the lamppost. And as physics go, that is very, very important.
And as for what Rwh was saying, it actually stops your brain crashing into your skull. As well as preventing your skull actually breaking. And having your brain crash into your skull is much worse than breaking your skull. Skulls heal, brains don't.

Squeak the Rat
11th January 2007, 18:43
Skulls heal, brains don't.

They fucken better!

davereid
11th January 2007, 18:51
No sorry Hans, your having a fantasy.

You are trying to tell me that G forces can be denied with a bit of foam ?

The "energy" as you call it caused by this deceleration is fixed.

Its determined by the mass of your head, the speed at which deceleration commences, the speed at which deceleration ends, and the time taken for that to happen. Your brain is like water in a tank.
It has a mass, a start velocity and an end velocity.

ONLY adding time to the deceleration equation helps - you can't alter the start and finish speeds...

ie physics for dummies... THREE VARIABLES
1= start speed
2= finish speed
3= time

Your helmet provides TIME - a carefully managed distortion of a structure to assist your brain in deceleration. But can't invent MAGIC SHIT that makes it all better.

Rave Over !:rockon:

Motu
11th January 2007, 19:29
The last few years I've been buying my gear with impact protection as first priority,I figure I don't need protection for sliding down the road at 225kph.But I worry about hitting something....experiance has shown me that is where the damage is done....for me at least.Good to see others are thinking the same.

Hans
11th January 2007, 20:12
Did I ever say denied? I meant lessened. And I think we pretty much agree in principle anyway. Not into the whole flame thing anyway...

Edbear
11th January 2007, 21:02
But I worry about hitting something....experiance has shown me that is where the damage is done....


Perzackly! I broke and dislocated my little finger as a teenager through thumping a schoolmate on the shoulder...!:yes:

I also fell off my pushbike into a ditch, landing on my head when I wuz 14! I think that's when my troubles began...:third:

Zapf
11th January 2007, 21:39
any thoughts and ideas on products from these guys http://www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk/

http://www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk/technology.asp