Why is it that when you do something nice, some people don’t appreciate it!!

[Zukin]

Sorry to rant and rave, but we are pissed off majorly at the moment.

For those of who that dont know what we are doing, this is our website here
www.rideforlife.co.nz

Ok here goes
So a year ago we decide that we want to ride around NZ on motorbikes to raise money for The Cancer Society and the people that suffer from this illness, we were complete rookies when it came to riding.
Anyway we planned and planned and told our employers it about it 5 months ago, all was good.
Then all out of the blue my wife’s company (which we will name if it isn’t resolved) she works for decides to send an email last Friday stating that her annual leave application has been declined!!! Not good news a month out from the event!!:gob:

So she calls them and asks why and to explain in a lot more detail that this is not just a tropical holiday, it is about giving someone the chance to improve their life a little.
She recieved and email back, and I quote;
During the period 29th January - 17 March there will be no planned concession for any of the Sales staff to take extended leave during this period due to a new product launch*
*Modified to remove specifics about the company and their products

What really annoys us is they only sent this correspondence in reference to above out to the managers today apparently.:angry:

So she again contacts them and explains that she had already placed her leave application 5 months ago and it was too late to change/alter or cancel the event (and we didn’t think about it anyway, do you think people with Cancer can all of a sudden decide to postpone the disease?)
They again say no, so the only option is for her to resign from her job so that we can continue to help those less fortunate than ourselves.
So she resigns today from a job she loves, and leaves a job she has been in for 5 years!!
No one calls to ask why? No one sends an email to say look we can review the decision and we can now say yes, but they call her colleagues to tell them and to find out if she is looking at legal action? (Not that she would, she is too nice and basically annual leave has to be agreed by both parties anyway)

She is devastated, but as she said, “Every cloud has a silver lining” their loss too as no one will be able to sell in the new products now!! She is upset so if you see her or have her number give her a call and tell her to keep her chin up.

So I ask where is the loyalty from this employer, I am hoping that someone can answer this as to why they would decline it??

So if anyone is looking for a good hardworking Sales Rep after the 26th Feb, please let us know!:yes:
And if she cant get work after that, then food parcels can be sent to the food bank ;), because once again there are always people worse off than us

Thanks for reading this little rant, and we both wish that whomever made this decision or their family, doesn’t get Cancer in the next few weeks, months or ever, because then they may grow a spine and realise that what we were trying to achieve.

And for those of you that know whom she works for, please dont make reference to it here, until they accept her resgination, then we boycoutt their products....
:mad:

Cheers Scott

[Colapop]

Loyalty? Never gonna get it from employers these days. In saying that, do employees give employers loyalty? It's a cynical world we live in and as much as we as individuals show loyalty - there are the minority (as usual) that have sploiled it for the rest of us.

All that aside I feel for your missus, she deserves better. Don't get bitter and twisted, give the love to someone more deserving.

[Disco Dan]

One word... MEDIA.

Serves two purposes, one, the company gets what is coming.
Two... Great exposure for your cause... I reckon THAT is your silver lining

I agree, and I also think you made the right decision under the circumstances.


I hope this company feels guilty and gives you compensation!!

If it was me, I would take legal action... but I also dont know when to keep my mouth shut...:innocent:

[RT527]

One word... MEDIA.

Serves two purposes, one, the company gets what is coming.
Two... Great exposure for your cause... I reckon THAT is your silver lining

Exactly my sentiments Dont dawdle get oneself to the media pronto, talk up the mean spiritedness of her ex employers, agreed that it had to be considered by both parties( leave that is) but they have proven that she is dispensable by not communicating, and by their approach.

Did the managers not learn anything...this could have been a chance at some high profile media/public relations coverage thus gaining even more sales by coming to an agreement to supply things like sun hats umbrellas etc etc for you to wear and use.

Sounds like complete and utter drongo`s.

[megarich]

Hi,

I would be checking up on your wifes employment contract and looking at the provisions relating to leave and employer cancelling leave applications and remebursment for cost incurred as a result of cancelled leave?

Is she a member of any union?

Have you spoken to anyone at Employment Relations Authority - 03 9647850

Far to often these days employers abuse the good will of staff and push the boundaries of contracts.

Good luck with the Ride for Life and I hope everything works out for the best.

[Disco Dan]

Hi,

I would be checking up on your wifes employment contract and looking at the provisions relating to leave and employer cancelling leave applications and remebursment for cost incurred as a result of cancelled leave?

Is she a member of any union?

Have you spoken to anyone at Employment Relations Authority - 03 9647850

Far to often these days employers abuse the good will of staff and push the boundaries of contracts.

Good luck with the Ride for Life and I hope everything works out for the best.

Good point! The mear fact that her employer was asking co-workers about legal action shows they know they are in the wrong.

They are allready worried.

Contact the media!

[riffer]

Yes, a good lawyer could make a half-decent case for constructive dismissal here, particularly as you had committed to a project based on an agreement to supply leave by your employer.

All the best for your trip, and as Colapop says, there's others more deserving than those idiots who didn't appreciate what they had!

[yungatart]

Scott, Carissa has made a courageous decision! Karma rules - you two will certainly get all the good stuff coming to you!
Cariissa, chin up, chicky babe - only good will come of this, trust me!:love:

[Lou Girardin]

Was the leave application approved then rescinded?
A personal grievance seems in order.
This is an example of the vaunted work/life balance that is so important to employers.

[Grub]

This is a bad bad bad story. for my sins, I have been an HR Manager and Consultant and know employment law pretty well. Before you dismiss the idea out of hand, read on, I have a suggestion :)

Whether she wants to or not, she does have a case for Constructive Dismissal. Yes there are employment act issues around being able to take leave and about the employer not having to grant it, but they don't apply here because ...
- she gave 5 months notice of the event and the reason for the leave. I'm presuming she did apply formally at that time. That's not a prerequisite if you have documentation like emails advising of the intent
- to then decline at such a late hour, the employer has not acted in "good faith"
- if they never responded to her leave request or granted it in that 5 month period, they are again not acting in good faith or as a "responsible employer"
- If they haven't properly discussed this with her personally, they would be seen by the court as not fulfilling their obligations. They are required to do this.
- The reason her resignation is a "constructive dismissal" is that they have given her no choice but to resign. She has no options. The trip can't be cancelled, it is in a very good cause and there is most likely a considerabe cost in cancelling bookings and things. Her employer knows this and because they know that she has no options then they have forced her to resign - and that is the definition of "constructive dismissal"

OK, so what to do? Certainly wait to see if they accept her "resignation". If they do, let her workmates find out that she has been speaking to HR lawyers. They can let it drop to the employer while she maintains all her options and is not making threats.

If she is in demand in the market then she is probably well out of a ratbag organisation like that. However if the whole thing turns to custard, I would certainly recommend that she
- see an employment lawyer. Letters from them frighten the bejeezus out of employers and loosen their purse strings.
- go to the media about a week before you set out on the ride so that the media track your trip as a "special interest" item. That's good publicity (and donations) for the ride. Any bigger gap will loose momentum, reporters are like 2yr olds, short attention span.
- if it goes to the employment tribunual, make it known that half of the award of the court will go to the Cancer Society. Everyone on the goodies side wins!

Brett

[Lteejay]

Chin up guys. Some people/companies can't see past the end of their own noses or profit margins. You are doing a fantastic thing, so dont let one companies lack of insight spoil a great moment in your lives and the lives of those that will benefit. All I can say is the company who employs Carissa next will be very lucky.
Originally from the HB myself and if I am down that way on the 24th Feb, I will be in Taradale with bells on.

Good on ya guys. Safe Riding. :first:

[NighthawkNZ]

First of all what a great wonderful thing you guys are doing... (and if you are in Dunedin come stop for a coffee (if the time is right I could be at work))

I agree with what the other guys have said, get the media involved (but start off as promoting your project and let it slip about the leave and stuff) don't bad mouth your ex employer as you don't want them taking any legal action against you.

Grub has excellent ideas... sounds like he knows what hes talking about ;)


I use to live and work in Napier a few years ago I use to run and own Eagle Express Motorcycle Couriers

[Colapop]

Quotey
What he said!!

[mstriumph]

....................... told our employers it about it 5 months ago, all was good................................ did she put in a leave application then? was it approved at that time? ... if not, was she specific about the dates she wanted and did the employer she spoke to indicate verbally that she would get that leave? and did she make further plans on the basis of a verbal assurance from someone?

just that, if you are going to take legal action, those are prolly the sorts of things to be taken into account


....................... my wife’s company (which we will name if it isn’t resolved)

THREATENING to go public just before a new product launch may be of more use in getting what you want than actually doing it [which will just feel good but will put them in 'damage' mode concentrated on the launch rather than 'fear' mode concentrated on your wife's situation .....]

just my [unqualified] opinion

good luck with it!

[SlashWylde]

One word... MEDIA.

Serves two purposes, one, the company gets what is coming.
Two... Great exposure for your cause... I reckon THAT is your silver lining

Wot he said.

But in answer to your question, it is because most human beings are despicable self centered money hungry pigs. Whilst I commiserate with you both and applaud your wifes decision to leave this company, I don't find their actions that surprising in this day and age. Loyalty and hard work means nothing to a lot of companies these days. I speak from personal experience.

All the best for your venture. I would be interested to know the name of the company your wife left.

[Mumbles]

Seems to me you guys have the power in this.... all the information provided here is sound.
KARMA rulz.
Stay safe on your trip, cant wait to see you on Campbell Live,
Bloody Marvelous!!

[boomer]

As an employer you have the right to say no, turn the tables and pretend that your mrs decided to cancel her leave after submitting it 5 months in advance then cancelling it a month to go.

i feel for your mrs, but you also have to understand that business's need to try and make money ;)


* this is gonan hurt

[chanceyy]

:corn: :corn: :corn: :wait:

been some good advice here .. with speedie .. sitting back & watching with interest

[Drum]

You don't want to work for a company like that anyway. If it wasn't this, it would've been something else down the line.

I would think long and hard before burning bridges though, NZ is a small place!

[candor]

Don't get screwed. This sux. Get to an employment lawyer NOW I say. A lawyer would say to prepare for and imagine the worst scenario. You should not be losing half your income for doing something for charity. Employer sounds cunning and sneaky - defend!

[davereid]

I think a company that behaves that way is not a good company to work for. Get a lawyer, sue them for as much as you can get, but dont go back.

[Zukin]

Was the leave application approved then rescinded?
A personal grievance seems in order.
This is an example of the vaunted work/life balance that is so important to employers.

Hi Lou

No the leave application that was sent was never replied to, however that is an electronic form, no other leave applications have ever been replied to either
Still she mucked up by not confirming it, but they all knew about it, in fact it was brought up in their October sales meeting!

[Zukin]

You don't want to work for a company like that anyway. If it wasn't this, it would've been something else down the line.

I would think long and hard before burning bridges though, NZ is a small place!

Hi Drum

Agree with you there on all counts, she wants to stay in the same industry, so she doesnt want to make too much fuss :shutup:

[RT527]

Hi Lou

No the leave application that was sent was never replied to, however that is an electronic form, no other leave applications have ever been replied to either
Still she mucked up by not confirming it, but they all knew about it, in fact it was brought up in their October sales meeting!

Then you have witnesses

[Colapop]

If it was brought up then it was either approved or not - simply by stating that she was going to be there or not...

[Zukin]

As an employer you have the right to say no, turn the tables and pretend that your mrs decided to cancel her leave after submitting it 5 months in advance then cancelling it a month to go.

i feel for your mrs, but you also have to understand that business's need to try and make money ;)


* this is gonan hurt

If someone decided to cancel leave, then the company wins! (unless they had arranged a casual staff member)
However cancelling leave in 1 month, must be better than losing a good staff member in a month??? After all everyone can be replaced, however it can take a while!!

[Swoop]

What a shame the company concerned couldn't have used the ride as a form of media exposure for their new product.....

Sponsorship.

[James Deuce]

Loyalty? Never gonna get it from employers these days. In saying that, do employees give employers loyalty? It's a cynical world we live in and as much as we as individuals show loyalty - there are the minority (as usual) that have sploiled it for the rest of us.


With all due respect Col (i.e. none) that's bollocks. No company in history with more than two employees has ever shown any loyalty to staff beyond their impact on the bottom line. I only have a job right now because my employer couldn't afford to part with yet another employee with institutional knowledge about a key client. Any other time in my employer's history and I would have been history at the end of August 2005. I have been told as much and get treated in a way that suggests that I am being "paid back" for their gracious behaviour in not firing me.

Zukin, I think your wife has taken the best approach. The karmic benefits of what you are doing will outweigh any short term loss, and the benefits will manifest themselves in ways that you won't expect, and possibly will never even notice.

[boomer]

If someone decided to cancel leave, then the company wins! (unless they had arranged a casual staff member)
However cancelling leave in 1 month, must be better than losing a good staff member in a month??? After all everyone can be replaced, however it can take a while!!

Not always, theres lots of stuff to take into account.

Leave schedules/work rosta's..making sure you have the right number of people at the right times
Having someone with too much leave is actually quite an overhead, most companies can't carry.


still.. i feel you pain, best way forward is talking to your/her manager and discussing it openly.

Shit talk and lawyers etc is ugly for all involved and leaves a bad taste in ya mouth.. which remains ( for all concerned )

[James Deuce]

You don't want to work for a company like that anyway. If it wasn't this, it would've been something else down the line.

I would think long and hard before burning bridges though, NZ is a small place!

That works two ways. In a resource hungry market the employee controls the market, not the employer.

I've seen some utter turdsicles get recycled into the workforce. Including myself.

Zukin's wife is a touch more noble than most. She'll have no issue when the reason for the bridge burning is made public.

[Manxman]

Hi Drum

Agree with you there on all counts, she wants to stay in the same industry, so she doesnt want to make too much fuss :shutup:

...when all said & done (and there's some great advice on this thread - from Grub in particular), in life we have to either stand up for our principles, or be rolled over by more dominant types.

Your course of action must be one that you can look back and say "I did the right thing and I'm happy with my choice".

I think you hold a number of aces here and should try to pass the pressure back on the org, by calmly saying things like "do you really want to force me out over this matter", "do you understand the potential consequences", "don't you see the possible benefits and exposure this could give the org", etc. This may force them to reassess and come around.

It sounds like there is a particular individual blocking the way (?may be a personality clash?), who is possibly under pressure from above, is not handling that pressure well and is therefore (un)consciously taking a very short term and reactive approach to the situation.

Is there any way to escalate this above that individual and get a higher ranking person to see your side of the argument? May be worth a go through a casual conversation.

BTW, great cause & good luck. When are you in Wellington??

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

Get a lawyer - the ones I work for also have an office in Auckland and they are excellent - pm me for their name. I have worked on employment law and you sure have an excellent case.

Good on you for sticking to your principles. I respect and admire what you propose to do raising funds for cancer.

There will certainly be silver linings for you.

All the best

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

Ooops just realise you are not in Auckland!!

[Richard Mc F]

dirt balls, yep the other name for employer.....was working fer a big assed institution...piece of shit managers i believe only tolerated my abrasive behaviour 'cause wat i did was a cross between stirring chicken entrails, econimic forecasting and marketing and selling the of lease used shit well enough to prove I knew wtf i were were on about.......and could, they near died when i handed my notice in effective 2/12/06........I had many issues with them in 10 odd years, get an employment lawer our man of one of the previous posts had it right, if you have done no wrong GO HARD....they freak like nanas when confronted by by informed critisism, NAME and SHAME just a wee thread in general ravings to say "I am leaving ******** to pursue a charitable cause" embelishments I leave to you ;) I need to know who they are to boycott them......pm me if you wish

[Dooly]

Thats real bad form by the employer.

Any chance of naming them?
My wife's in sales.

[RantyDave]

During the period 29th January - 17 March there will be no planned concession for any of the Sales staff to take extended leave during this period due to a new product launch
Employment court - this is a constructive dismissal. Send her boss a pair of surgical gloves so he gets the idea.

Dave

[Hawkeye]

If she is going to resign, make sure she explains the reason in the resignation letter. (politely) Spell out their lack of forthought and the great opportunity for media coverage the event is going to bring. Especially right at the time of the new product launch. Their loss. They may even re-consider once you point out the opportunity.

As for lawyers etc. I've seen first hand the affect when things turn nasty. She might win the case and keep the job. But the after taste is bitter. The employers then become annal. They look for ways to criticise, keep moving the goal posts and generally make it almost impossible to feel comfortable. You end up looking over your shoulder constantly. They are also the people who provide references for the next job. As someone else has already stated, NZ is a small place!

Thumbs up for a great cause. You both are doing a wonderful thing for those less fortunate.

[James Deuce]

Have to disagree there Hawkeye. A resignation letter should never contain any thing other than, 'So long, and thanks for all the fish", or words to that effect, plus the date you will be finishing.

[Crisis management]

Thats horrible news Scott and Carrisa, the last thing you need now is this sort of crap!
Good on you for carrying on with the Ride for Life rather than buckling to that sort of mean spirited pressure, they're probably only jealous of you anyway!

Take Grub's advice, there needs to be a stand made against crappy people and it is rare to be able to make such a stand. Quite often they are able to hide behind the law or money, so if you can give them a wake up call without lowering yourself to their level do it!

Thinking of you!

Iain

[Nasty]

Hey guys

Check out what Grub was saying with a lawyer ... what they have done is really tantamount to constructive dismissal in forcing her into a position of having to resign. Don't leave it ... do it now .. they will have two options ... one of which is pay out .. the other is hold the job open or reemploy.

[Zukin]

Thanks for everyones help and support, It really means a lot.

For the very first time ever, Carissa sat down for about 1/2 an hour and read every post, she had tears rolling down her cheek, and I told her it would be alright, she replied
"I am not sad about those bunch of idiots at work, I am happy with all the messages of well wishes and support from people I have mever meet, It makes me really appreciate what we are doing is the right thing!
It is a circle of friendship, we are helping others in need, and in return, when we need help others are helping us"

So thanks guys and gals, you really perked her up :)

Cheers Scott

[NighthawkNZ]

So thanks guys and gals, you really perked her up :)


The one thing I did learn from the Navy is his... "Don't let the bastards get to you."

[ManDownUnder]

Scott - does she have a CV? Post it up here... who knows - she might get to take a break between jobs, do the ride, and end up in a better role too...

Win win win?

[elle-f]

You two have the most wonderful attitude to life and people have mentioned karma and they are right - what goes around, comes around. however, I suggest you try to get a hold of the minutes of the meeting in October when it was brought up and see what was said. While it's important not to burn your bridges its also important to have fairness. If the employers are talking to her colleagues that shows me that they know what they have done is wrong and it also shows me that there is a bit of workplace bullying going on.

Whatever you two decide to do in regards to the action you will take - good luck. I really cannot do anything as i am not in a position to be able to but if you can think of anything let me know.

Regards,
Michelle

[smokeyging]

In all my years in the work force I have gone out of my way to help that company etc, and likewise they have all done the same for me. Whenever I have needed help or a day or two off they have been more than helpful. To me you are asking a favour and they don’t want a bar of it. I doubt they are worth looking after. By the sounds of things your wife will have no problems getting another job for she should have loads of contacts from the customers she has worked with etc. there are some company’s out there with the arrogance that there’s always another monkey to take your wife’s place. Of course the silly clowns eventually end up with monkeys and wonder why there company goes down the gurgler.

[Zukin]

Well what can I say!!!

After the posts in here, I can say that KBers saved the day :yes:

After reading your posts, we sent a letter based on information obtained from the advice on this post
A huge thanks in particlular Grub and RT527, we used extracts from your posts to draft the letter:yes:

We sent it to them and within hours a phone call from the company concerned, with a new answer....

They have approved her leave :done:

So thanks to our family here on KB, you are all really a special bunch and we are really looking forward to meeting you all on our travels around NZ!!

Grub - We have been in contact, but we WILL do something special for you when we catch up :)
RT527 - Keen to do the same so I will contact you soon

Again
Thank you all very much

Cheers Scott & Carissa

[Macktheknife]

Great news for you both!
I am pleased for you, and really pleased that you can continue with your plans for this great ride idea.
Carissa needs to be on her guard from now on as some small minded people in organisations can get nasty if their decisions are overturned. I have had reason to use an employment lawyer 2 times so far, this has proven the worth of them to me. Employers often take advantage of the fact that most employees do not know their rights or the law in most situations, when in doubt, go see a lawyer. It might cost a little bit but you get the right info when you need it.
All the best with your ride for life and keep us informed of your progress.
Cheers
Mack

[Drum]

That's awesome. Well done, and all the best for the ride.

[SDU]

Congradulations. I'm glad it has worked out well for your wife.
All the best.

[kro]

If she is going to resign, make sure she explains the reason in the resignation letter. (politely) Spell out their lack of forthought and the great opportunity for media coverage the event is going to bring. Especially right at the time of the new product launch. Their loss. They may even re-consider once you point out the opportunity.

I would like to politely disagree on that point. If, as Lou said, she applied for the leave months ago, and had it approved, and it has now been rescinded, I would not give an employer like that, the chance to reconsider their actions, and I certainly wouldn't reward their callous actions with a chance for free publicity.
I would just go for the jugular, and take it to employment court. If all the facts are as stated here, then she will triumph, and on a large scale.

I would not jeopardise this opportunity by resigning, I would take the employment court settlement, and add it to the takings for the charity ride instead.

Yes, I am about as vindictive as you can possibly imagine.

[R6_kid]

fair go loves these kinds of stories.

[elle-f]

AWESOME! Well Done for just not being upset and doing zilch about it. Carry on........