Kapiti: SH1 crash (16 January)

[jumma]

NZ Police CommCens Alert 16:45 16-01-2007 Wellington

Location of incident: SH 1 Pekapeka

Incident Type: Crash, Car and Truck

SH 1 at Pekapeka will be closed for the next 20 mins to allow helicopter to land. Both lanes will be affected. No diversions unfortunately

And another one in Mana:

SH 1 at Mana Esplanade is moving as vehicles are off to the side of the road but there are at least 15 min delays for north bound traffic.

Police are currently dealing with a car that has crashed through the main door of BP Roadmaster. No roads cloased but heavy buildup of pedestrian traffic.

[davereid]

Its about time the entire board of Transit were given their marching orders. The ads say "speeders, they are killing us". Actually, its Transit. Overpaid idiots, mismanaging our roading network.

Instead of watching as Transit introduce electronic tolls, electronic number plates, lower speed limits, cheesecutter barriers, we should be getting rid of them, and getting a roading authority that actually wants to build fast, safe roads.

You know, like the ones they built in Europe in the 30's.

p.s. hope no one seriously hurt in either accident

[Shadows]

The one at Peka Peka must have been nasty, the cops were still there marking stuff on the road and putting numbered boards everywhere at about quarter to 7.

[James Deuce]

Its about time the entire board of Transit were given their marching orders. The ads say "speeders, they are killing us". Actually, its Transit. Overpaid idiots, mismanaging our roading network.

Instead of watching as Transit introduce electronic tolls, electronic number plates, lower speed limits, cheesecutter barriers, we should be getting rid of them, and getting a roading authority that actually wants to build fast, safe roads.

You know, like the ones they built in Europe in the 30's.

p.s. hope no one seriously hurt in either accident

We can't afford to build roads like they built in Europe in the '30s. You need to divert 20% of your workforce of 20 million into building them and thanks to shutting down MoW and letting the Civil Engineering branch wither we don't have the planning and engineering expertise to build decent roads.

However the roads aren't the issue. You've been brainwashed as much as the people who believe speed kills. There's nothing wrong with NZ roads that can't be fixed by the dolt behind the steering wheel or handle bars.

The chap who died near Fisherman's Table last week crossed double yellow lines into oncoming traffic and his wife wants to jack up Greater Wellington Region rates by extending the "killer highway" barrier through there. Here's a plan for you: Stop driving on the wrong side of the road and blaming the road when you have an accident.

[What?]

Egg-Bloody-Zactly, Jim.
It did not escape my notice that, according to the news media, all four of the car drivers who died last weekend were not to blame - it was the car at fault in each case. The sad bit is, there seems to be a growing tide of people that believe all that "killer road" and "car lost control" bullshit.

[Ascott]

What Jim2 said!

[Paul in NZ]

What Jim2 said!

What? Is this the same Jim2 of the slippery tar predictions?

:-o

Sorry Jim - couldn't help it, my keyboard went off when I was cleaning it....

Basically i agree with Jim. There are some god awful drivers on that road and instead of the drivers wife whinging about barriers she should be thinking about how to make good the damage her husband caused..... Harsh? Yes...

Having said that.... Transit needs a kick up the arse regarding the state highways. SHW1 has no business going through those little towns like Otaki etc. As much as the local retailers love it, its a bloody menace and while we can't build it overnight you could add 20km every year or so and while we are at it, whack in a bloody great trench under it for a new national grid feed.

[Freakshow]

The chap who died near Fisherman's Table last week crossed double yellow lines into oncoming traffic and his wife wants to jack up Greater Wellington Region rates by extending the "killer highway" barrier through there. Here's a plan for you: Stop driving on the wrong side of the road and blaming the road when you have an accident.

I dont understnad this piece of road and why it kills! It has nothing to do with the state of the road just the dumb arses who use it!

I friend of mine had a great idea, instead of wasting money and time building cheese graters and barriers, they should build a wall so people stop checking out the great view and actually concentrate on protecting the right of the person in the other lane and their passengers!:done:

[Hitcher]

Transit should only be held accountable for roads they have built or modified.

Drivers and riders also have to take responsibility for their actions as well -- and staying on the correct side of the road is one such remedy available to them. I am fast tiring of tales about the "Highway of Death" north of Wellington and how a median barrier is the "solution".

I am a bit hot about recent new road builds by Transit -- notably the Kaitoke realignment -- which has seen off-camber corners, blind corners, poorly positioned side roads and all manner of latent death created. In these circumstances the road builders/authorities should be individually liable for any death or accident their creations engender. Another example of gross and willful neglect by road builders is the Wainuiomata hill road. I know that has been there for many years, but how a stretch of highway where every corner is extremely off-camber could have ever been approved is a mystery to me.

[elle-f]

yep - if they put a tougher barrier there people are just going to bang into it and head into the cars behind them. they need hugeassed signs there going ON about concentrating on driving........unless they are already there of course and i guess, when thinking about it, those signs need to be very visual with not much writing for the driver to read because that in itself could be an issue:laugh:

[LilSel]

I dont understnad this piece of road and why it kills! It has nothing to do with the state of the road just the dumb arses who use it!


I dont understand why either... I was in wellington 3 times last year... and went up n down there at least 4 or 6 times a day... I didnt get how it was regarded as one of the most 'dangerous' bits of road in the country?!?! (as the media put it)... there is more 'dangerous' highways around.... I was expecting really crazy road... but it wasnt and I was kinda like :gob: whats so dangerous bout this?... :done:

[Shadows]

I am a bit hot about recent new road builds by Transit -- notably the Kaitoke realignment -- which has seen off-camber corners, blind corners, poorly positioned side roads and all manner of latent death created.

The project manager was a woman, you know.

[Hitcher]

The project manager was a woman, you know.

Probably endeavoured to do what most project managers do: that it was completed on time and within budget (Which it wasn't), rather than ensuring that it was fit for purpose.

[Skunk]

hope no one seriously hurt in either accident
Pekapeka was a fatal.

I dont understand why either... I was in wellington 3 times last year... and went up n down there at least 4 or 6 times a day... I didnt get how it was regarded as one of the most 'dangerous' bits of road in the country?!?! (as the media put it)... there is more 'dangerous' highways around.... I was expecting really crazy road... but it wasnt and I was kinda like whats so dangerous bout this?...
The people driving on it are dangerous... not the road.

[Shadows]

Pekapeka was a fatal.

She was the mother of a worker here.

[xwhatsit]

I wouldn't totally discount the NZ roads as a partial cause in many accidents. I've just been overseas, riding in Brisbane and quite a few bits north and south of it. Now, I'm not necessarily referring to the big 6-lane straight motorways, but even the backroad motorways, single lane both ways, twisty etc etc feel a hell of a lot safer to ride on than NZ ones do. Less blind corners, more sensible cambers, all of those things you guys are talking about. Of course, they're a lot more boring to ride on, but that's another issue.

I don't know whether roads like ours are solely the fault/credit of Transit or whoever built them, I'd say a large chunk of the blame has to go into the local geography, and also the lack of money that they get to build the roads. I'm sure Transit would like to do nothing more than build a massive 6-lane viaduct across the entire landscape (and put tolls on it :D), but that's obviously not going to happen with the amount of money they get. Our country's about the same size as Japan, but the economy's far worse and we have a much lower population density -- so less tax for each motorway (yes, I know, we have less motorways than Japan but you get my point).

[James Deuce]

Most Scandinavian countries, with much more robust economies and similar populations and land areas, do not rely on roading for transit and shipping.

NZ's sealed to unsealed is currently running at a ratio of about 55% to 45% in favour of sealed roads.

Until very recently Sweden's major highway was unsealed outside of it's major cities, hence the number of stunning rally drivers that emanate from the region. Similarly Finland and Norway have a much greater ratio in favour of unsealed roads to sealed roads than NZ. I have Norwegian relatives who are constantly surprised by the depth, breadth, and quality of NZ roads, and our comparative lack of rail and shipping.

I repeat: The roads are not to blame. If they were all gravel, it would still not be the road's fault. It's the nut behind the wheel/handlebars.

[candor]

Rubbish. Scandinavian countries have similar population bases and only earn a couple thou more per heads than we do. Our economy is flush and we can well afford fast and safe roads. Such things are not put on platters by Govts but only come when people see the benefit obviously. First they need education re the possibility and benefits - that is hard to get out there with a media well bought off by current 'regime'. But as you say Jim skill and labour are problems.

Transit are telling blatant lies about the costs of road improvements too.:yes: We spend less than 21 out of 23 other OECD lands of similarwealth on roads. And what we do spend goes to the wrong places - councilds not highways as it is population tagged. Not tagged to area of danger and most deaths / need. If you have lots of speed humps and fancy sculptures in your street andd think it looks nice - someone payed on SH1 4 dat - in blood.

That drivers stuff ups cause the toll is moot. States the obvious. Unconstructive to stop the thought flow there. Causing a crash does not equate to deserve to die - in a fairs fair equation! Most societies no longer have such brutal primitive and frankly bush attitudes. Its just that this simplistic attitude is what govt is indoctrinating people with here - so that all onus is off them to use OUR taxes to provide a safe system. Docile acceptance of a sick situation is what the spin Drs order.

Funny how fireys don't jump up and down after every house fire saying - see a smoker again , a damn smoker (equivelent to "speeder"). Or how lifeguards don't after drownings go saying - "see you went in the water - take that". Only in road safety is the victim (guilty or not) inevitably blamed.
Families of innocent victims often find insensitive pratts look for ways to blame the victim (apparently this is a psychological defense to restore feelings of safety and security. It is plainly better to believe "I'm in control and it can't happen to me")

Besides which - even if you did deserve to die for a moments inattention or being drowsy after a 20 hour shift at the hospital saving lives - what about the poor bugger on the other side of the road you kill when you cross it!

Do they deserve to die also? Or to end up in a wheelchair or brain dead?

And what about the fact that spending up front on roading methods proven to cut tolls like ours by 50-80% over and over is said by the World bank to make sense... in the long view (30 yr view). Do we want to carry a 3.3bill cost of road crashes every year forever? Wow thats so clever.

And why would we not do what can be done to prevent severe crashes via engineering since that is how we can cut the NUMBER 1 cause of homicide. It used to be called manslaughter. Now its just drink or drug driving causing death - kills 200 odd innocent people a year - a bit up on 40 odd murders.

Well we can't do much about the murders so long as 1 a week is done by patients on community orders! But here is a serious criminal culling of innocents that can be fixed technologically. Oh thats right - I forgot - "it won't happen to me or my family because... we're not dolts behind the wheel".

Wrong! Its not you - but the other idiots to worry about as the old cliche goes - and more importantly how transit roads line you up in the F****r's sights. Prevention is better than hoping your kiler gets more than 2 mths jail.

A total bastard who I sorely want to strangle wrote the Dom Post Editor today. He said much the same as some of u on this thread. He minimised the trauma and pain felt by road victims by cleverly pointing out that a death per 9 mill vehicles at Kapiti is not a bad average. And then finished his cold nasty ignorant rant with "road design? Get real".

Thanks Steve L of Waitakere. Your claim of road safety expertise based on having driven that road often is so impressive :nono: . But he gives away his toddler education status by referring to crashes as accidents. No such thing.

I'm afraid to say I hope Karma comes his way. And that as he holds up traffic while dying painfully due to someone being ABLE to cross the centreline - I hope he reflects on his letter and regrets his smartarse minimising of a big problem. One in 50 dying on the road when it copuld be half that is a big problem.

It is weird working in road safety the attitudes you come across. Some people are so opposed to reducing injury and stopping trauma and death. They are so angry people would try. And they are so determined that progress won't or can't be made and vehement about this. Most peculiar the level of animosity that promotion of crash reduction or crash severity reduction brings.

It's almost like they're getting backhanders from grim reaper and their coldness makes my skin crawl. They pretend to be rational but usually haven't a clue about the subject area. Needless to say they've never lost a kid or brother or grandmother through a fault or faultfree crash.

It just gets me why people would feel a need to spout harmful malevolent BS when they clearly are very illinformed (Steve L I mean). :rockon:

[Ixion]

:Oi:.

I don't WANT fast and safe roads. I don't WANT money spent on roads. I want lousy roads. Off camber roads, roads with big potholes, windy bendy roads ,gravel roads, roads that dont have any signs on them, roads that frighten people (and , ironically, are therefore safe, cos the incompetant muppets don't even try).

It's "fast safe roads" that cause fatal accidents, cos the incompetant fools that make up the majority of the present road users are deluded into thinking that they can drive on them without stuffing up. Whereas the reality is that the majority of the population is not capable of ever driving on ANY road with ballsing it up. And "fast safe roads" mean that the muppets drive fast. So when they stuff up (as they do) the mess is big and fatal.

Lousy shitty scarey roads frighten the muppets away. And for those who are not frightened off, the roads are FUN.

[Grahameeboy]

Whatever happened to that good old saying 'drive / ride to the conditions'??

[James Deuce]

Rubbish. Scandinavian countries have similar population bases and only earn a couple thou more per heads than we do. Our economy is flush and we can well afford fast and safe roads.

If you look at straight GDP Norway's is $4k per capita better than NZ's, but their balance of payments is positive. NZ's balance of payments is in a shocking state, and as a country we can't afford to borrow any more money. All Norway has to do to meet an economic downturn is produce more oil temporarily.

We're doomed if we have a crisis like 1987 right now.

The best way to improve NZ roads is to get trucks off them. The road toll is NOT going to improve without intensive driver training. Roads don't kill people, and the type of roads that will get built to make the roads "safer" will mean there's no point owning a motorcycle that can go round corners with aplomb. We'll all end up riding Harleys, IF we can be bothered.

I agree with candor that there is too much of a fatalistic approach to acceptance of road deaths especially when a motorcyclist is involved. The chap that was killed at Silverstream bridge by two idiots dueling in their cars was a completely pointless death and because of the attitude to "accidents" on the road, the manslaughter charge will never see the light of day.

However if I die in an RTA today, I'll just be another motorcyclist who was probably a hoon and probably deserved it. Motorcycles are death traps you know, and the chap that crossed the centreline and killed me couldn't possibly be held responsible for the death of an idiot who chose to ride motorcycles.

I don't agree with candor's assessment of NZ's economy however. Subtle indicators like a largely 2nd hand vehicle fleet, patchwork road repairs, and a reliance on trading primary produce at a time when we are probably going to be banned from shipping that produce thanks to "carbon credits" mean things are going to get worse, not better.

[James Deuce]

Whatever happened to that good old saying 'drive / ride to the conditions'??

That requires an acceptance of the philosophy "personal responsibility".