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View Full Version : Does Fast Track Riding = Fast Road Riding



wkid_one
5th June 2003, 10:41
I ask pose this thought from the other thread.....

I think someone who is fast on the road - will be fast on the track....but someone who is fast on the track, won't necessarily be fast on the road.

Why do I say this....well road riding requires more 'adaptation' to the conditions and more attention as there is the unknown factor.  Whereas riding on the track - you know there is no oncoming traffic, the track will be flat with no pot holes etc - you only need to concentrate on fewer variables

A road rider needs to be able to not only ride fast but quickly alter line/speed/braking to suit completely variable and often unknown conditions

Your thoughts?

bluninja
5th June 2003, 11:13
I would have thought a fast racer would be equally fast on the road as they also have lots of variables to consider. Also whilst there are some gifted and fast riders out there, many have their favourite roads that they ride again and again and other than the odd nuisance of traffic and police it is much like riding an extended track.

In the end, a lot of the road stuff comes down to attitude. I have an attitude that is probably more geared to leaving big margins for error, therefore even if my skills were better I would always be slower than someone who rides at the edge of the envelope. Also with attitude, there may well be some people out there who consider the moral/social consequences of their speed on the roads and so choose not to go fast.

I realise I'm talking about racers, as opposed to trackday enthusiasts, that perhaps don't race, but I just thought I'd put my view in from that angle.

I guess the proof would be to have a road based TT race (as opposed to battle of the streets). Still no traffic, but it would certainly be a better test than less than 5km of track before it repeats.

TTFN

Dave
5th June 2003, 11:16
I used to think I was fast on the road-Quicker than all my friends,but still safe and only 2 accidents in 10 years-thrashing a 91 GSXR 750 for the last few years and being able to travel faster than mates on larger faster bikes-Then I started racing,I was the nowhere man.I got absolutely dorked,You can not even ever travel close to as fast and hard as you can ride on the race track.
This I proved by riding My GP bike on the road up near my place at Kaukap. Open road and I was riding the clutch in first gear to get around most of the corners 80-100k/hr.
I think it proved to me just how much quicker you travel on the race track.
I do know people that race that do not hold road licences and have never ridden road bikes-I don't think they would last 5 minutes on the road.
Given that a rider has a set amount of concentration,and applies himself to the task 100%.That attention gets spread around far more areas on the road than on the track.
Road;-traffic,pedestrians,potholes,cops,weather,tirednes s,fuel useage,grip,speed,etc.
Racetrack;-grip,revs,rider in front of you,braking points.

so it seems to make sense that the amount of speed able to be achieved on the road safeley would be less than on a race track.

wkid_one
5th June 2003, 11:26
I am glad this sparked conversation - my job here is done!

Motu
5th June 2003, 14:11
Hah,I answered on the other thread! But I would like to add that the biggest buzzes I've ever had on a bike has been at tracks - but I still prefer to ride on the road.Mainly because my prefered roads are a bit more ''difficult'' than the roads sports riders use.I wish supermotard was in NZ 20yrs ago,thats where I would be.

Marmoot
5th June 2003, 15:40
I like to think two of them as two different things, not really connected. Each has its own art and thrills.

I've seen fast racer went white and slowed down really much on the road, complaining "it's too unpredictable and dangerous".

And I've seen fast road riders went really slow on the track, saying "well, i'm not used to using the right side of the road".

Personally, I like road much more than track. More art, more thrills :)

SPman
5th June 2003, 17:25
I know of an extremely fast road rider, who, as Dave says, was absolutely dicked on the track! This is a guy who covered 1600 k in 10 hrs on the road - Ak to Napier 3hrs20 - but on a track...........nah!

Dave
5th June 2003, 17:35
I think certain types of riding suit certain types of people.
And then theres vespa riders (are they people?)

Marmoot
5th June 2003, 22:34
1600k in 10 hours is not fast!
It is BLOODY LUCKY

most people would've got caught on the second hour on that run :)

wkid_one
6th June 2003, 10:40
My best is 4 1/2 hours Wellington to Auckland - trying to have SOME social responsibility.....not truly proud of it.

The funny thing is - it was my last trip that took 7 hours that I got ticketed on!!  Where is the justice in that?

Any who - speeding is a natural by product of riding a bike.  Speeding on the road is even better because of the unknown quantity.  Somehow there is thrill to be had when you pass a car before a corner thinking 'shite.....not much road left'.

I must say the ride Marmoot, Andy, BB, BigB, Mike and I took to Kawhia was fantastic in April/May

The backroads Marmoot took us on from the Drury Turnoff on - meant we essentially road raced all the way to Ngarawhaia - fantastic....that is why I love biking on the road.  We had sections of wheel to wheel action where all three of us were pushing (and Marmoot was on a fecked front tyre no less)....FAN - BLOODY - TASTIC - better than any track day.

 

bikerboy
6th June 2003, 16:35
:D Even a slow poke like me enjoyed that ride Wkid.

Are you being punished for something or on the lamb? Your relocation to Wellington came as a cruel twist of fate after the keyboard to keyboard slug fest with the Welly lads a few months back.

Are you planning a return soon or have we lost "ye great ride organizer" to the wind brigade?

I know :Offtopic:

Marmoot
6th June 2003, 19:51
a fecked front tyre no less

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA :D

Two Smoker
26th June 2004, 19:27
HHmmmmmm, i knoe my uncle raced (and still does) most of his life, yet never rode on the road....... Then a few years ago (hes 70 now) and he started road riding, got my Dad to give him some pointers, and now is BLOODY fast on the road...... He believes that road riding makes you faster on the track because of the adaptions that you have to make.....

He did the IOMTT and still does 1 minute 16's at Puke on a TZ350 at the age of 70 :niceone:

Bob
26th June 2004, 22:49
I'm certainly not a fast rider, but having done road and track, I'd say doing track time certainly helps with your road riding.

Track gives you the chance to get out there and try things, see just what you can do as well as your bike, without cow poo, dorks coming the other way etc, with great surfaces (Don't know about your tracks, but the surfacing on our tracks beats our roads hands down!)

First time I ever did a track day, coming home the journey (about 100 miles) took 45 minutes less than the trip up. Thanks to the track work, my road positioning etc was much better and I was far smoother on the road.

So does road riding help with the track? Well constant practice has to help. And road riders are used to dealing with all sorts of conditions and circumstances. Nice story a make told me (and this guy is a decent track rider - he was under 10 seconds off the track record at Castle Combe - and he was riding an old ZX10 as opposed to the race-spec superbike (ridden by Jamie Whitham) that holds the record). He went on a track day - and it started raining. Hard. The 'track day only' riders were all talking about packing up and going home - but the road riders just got on with it, as they'd be out on a great road surface and could have some fun!

FROSTY
27th June 2004, 00:07
I rthink the one major difference between a fast road rider and a racer is in agression levels and comfort zones. I do clearly remember last time I was racing getting apsolute shite from my mates for cutting in too close to them on the road and weaving through the pack. To me i had a ton of room but to them it was too close.
Making the transisition back to racing Im noticing I have the road rather than race habit of ensuring theres enough room.

DEATH_INC.
27th June 2004, 05:48
I know a couple of circuit racers,fairly accomplished one's,that are only average on the road,the fastest racers that I know on the road are MX guys.......

moko
27th June 2004, 06:55
I think things are maybe different for you blokes in N.Z. but here filtering,lane-splitting whatever you call it is legal.the sign of a good rider here is one that can zip through traffic quickly and safely.In Summer when the rich gits get their toys out you can always spot them,they`re the ones sitting in the traffic queue just like they do in their poxy Volvo when it`s a bit chilly.the real art is getting your timing right so you avoid stopping at traffic lights for any longer than nescessary,I`ll slow right down as I approach the head of a queue then accelerate as the lights change,best time was when 2 guys were having an "across-lane" chat at the front,out of devilment I was trickling along,having seen them hanging out of their windows,until the lights turned Amber and it was a big handful of throttle and a look in the mirrors to see 2 heads disappear bloody quick as I shot between them doing 60 m.p.h.

Sensei
27th June 2004, 18:21
I ride with a couple of Racer's & are just as fast as myself on the road . Mainly because they know the road's as well as me . I don't know whether I would fair as well against them on the track .Have only done a couple of track day's with good skill's been learnt from the other rider's . Didn't get left behind by the Race guy's so maybe the Road skill's do help alittle . Would have to do some proper racing to see how crappy I really was I suppose Sensei :eek5:

Two Smoker
27th June 2004, 19:18
Well the only racers ive ridden with is MR and KK, and they are both bloody fast on the track and road :wacko:

White trash
28th June 2004, 08:36
I know a few people who sustain high touring speeds but just cruise at the track. I think the difference is on the road, they maintain a very high speed. Bugger all braking or accelleration. Just fast.

At the track, they're going alot faster on the straights but brake a whole lot earlier and are not really sure how to judge upcoming corner speeds.

I'm just slow everywhere. :disapint:

FROSTY
28th June 2004, 10:09
well we will see just how slow on saturday hu wt :whistle:

White trash
28th June 2004, 11:02
Tell ya one thing, brother.

That Johann Bruns character is gonna get the hiding of his life! :wavey:



















From Nicko.......... :doobey:

Paul in NZ
28th June 2004, 12:00
Going fast on a bike is about technique, control, attitude and most of all, how much risk you are prepared to handle! The laws of physics apply equally to all of us, ability and RISK are the variables..

On the road, a poor rider can easily appear fast buy taking what others consider unacceptable risk. A competent (read fast) rider appears slow because they don't want to take on too much risk.

Get away with just one silly passing move in traffic going over the Rimutakas and you are virually uncatchable.. Does that genuinely make you a fast road rider?? No, not really, it just makes you foolhardy..

Some people think I can ride OK. Others think of me as a mobile chicane' on the road or the track.... Just how hard can I ride?? I don't really know and have little interest in finding out these days. I've looked into the eyes of god on a number of bends and I didn't see anything I didn't already know or couldn't find out in a book or on the 'net.

I'm fast enough for my own skin.

Paul N

Likes bikes that feel fast at slow speeds

NordieBoy
28th June 2004, 18:48
I think certain types of riding suit certain types of people.
And then theres vespa riders (are they people?)


A few years back 3 vespa's finished in the Paris Dakar.

And yes it was in the same year they started it :)

Mad buggers.

Two Smoker
28th June 2004, 18:54
Tell ya one thing, brother.

That Johann Bruns character is gonna get the hiding of his life! :wavey:



















From Nicko.......... :doobey:
LOL, is Nicko going to be at Puke on Saturday????? If he is i hope he brings his RG150 and teach me a shitload.......

FROSTY
3rd July 2004, 23:21
Im having a total rethink on this subject. main reason being just how slow i am on the zxr400.I havve come to the conclusion that most guys who have had a break from riding have come too. Sports/race bikes have come a heck of a long way in the last 10 years -as a result a good 600 rider nowadays seems to lap as fast as an 1100 rider was 10 years ago.
For me there is the need to come to grips with this situation.
To do so I think i neeed more time with bum on seat of a modern sports bike.
Time to not so much explore 11/10ths on the road but to go to 7/10ths and realise just where that is nowadays.
i think that will transfere over to a faster lap time .

Sparky Bills
16th August 2004, 15:39
iT DOESNT MATTER IF YOUR ON THE ROAD OR TRACK..
THE SMOOTHER YOU RIDE-THE FASTER YOU GO.
YOU DONT EVEN KNOW IT!
LOOK AT ALL OUR TOP RACERS, THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE OUT ON A SUNDAY RIDE!
ME ON THE OTHER HAND, IM JUST REALLY GOOD.
AS FAR AS THE WKD'S COMMENT ABOUT NO POT HOLES ON THE TRACK, HAVE YOU BEEN TO MANFEILD LATLEY? (its not that bad i guess)
Its all about being smooth! :rockon:

scroter
16th August 2004, 16:02
i initialy found that track days made me better on the road but now im a bit of a track day addict i dont think it makesz a hell of a lot of diffence.

last year i saw karl morgan going dman quick on a gsxr600 on the track like real competitive. then at wananui he was nowhere. i asked brian bernard about this and he said it was because he had never ridden on the road before at all.

DEATH_INC.
21st July 2005, 19:37
Nearly a year down the track and I'm now in a better position to know the answer to this.....it doesn't matter,I'm pretty fast on the road,but get my butt kicked on the track.WT's fast on the road and track,and LB's not far behind on either too.There's a couple who can kick my ass all over the track who I can do the same to on the road.It's two totally different types of riding.Like MX and road.

DingDong
21st July 2005, 19:55
For me, its a confidence thing... on the track I'm prepared for injury and bike repairs, I know the risk and I accept it.
On the road I feel the risk is higher because you cant predict other drivers, tree placement (other fixed stuff) or even your own bikes reliability because it doest recieve the same attention as a race bike, I dont accept the risk where death is a consequence.

Therefore... I ride at a safe pace on the road (but not to safe as to be bored) and nuts out on the track (Im still not fast tho, but Im CrAzY and that counts)

Good question... track is safe, road is a killa :devil2:

FROSTY
21st July 2005, 20:01
My opinion.As a track rider im happy to explore the limits of myself and my bike. On the road Im just not prepared to push that hard.Riding well within my personal limits at all times.
Im sure of one thing--fast on the road is so far away from fast track riding that i'd say its a tiotally different world

marty
21st July 2005, 20:48
omg - though wkid was back.....

Sensei
21st July 2005, 20:54
For me , If you have Real Skills you'll just adjust to what is needed to get the job done Nothing more nothing less !!

loosebruce
21st July 2005, 21:08
For me it's a comfort thing, i can get along fairly well road and track, i feel more comfy on the track, mainly as when shit goes wrong on the track as compared to the road. I love the track and go to track days whenever i can get time off work and have some spare coin. I love the going fast on the road, time and place though, 50kph areas is 50kph areas, motorways are for wheelies and back roads are for kicking it with some mates, all be it fast or cruising.
There are a more than a few guys i've seen on the track ride really fast but not translate it onto the road, no big deal really, maybe they're smart enough to realise the saftey issue? Like Death said 2 different situations, 2 different riding styles.

White trash
22nd July 2005, 19:51
Actually, I just ride. If I'm by myself, I'm usually at a really boring pace. When I'm with others, I'll turn it up a little.

TwoSeven
22nd July 2005, 20:15
I ask pose this thought from the other thread.....

I think someone who is fast on the road - will be fast on the track....but someone who is fast on the track, won't necessarily be fast on the road.

Why do I say this....well road riding requires more 'adaptation' to the conditions and more attention as there is the unknown factor.  Whereas riding on the track - you know there is no oncoming traffic, the track will be flat with no pot holes etc - you only need to concentrate on fewer variables

A road rider needs to be able to not only ride fast but quickly alter line/speed/braking to suit completely variable and often unknown conditions

Your thoughts?

If it were true, then all experienced motorcycle couriers would be entered in MotoGP and all experienced race track riders would be earning top dollar as motorcycle couriers.

Having experienced a bit of both, I can say that track riding is completely different from road riding.

DEATH_INC.
22nd July 2005, 21:43
omg - though wkid was back.....
Sorry 'bout that......Scary thought isn't it!

JohnBoy
22nd July 2005, 21:52
my road riding is a lot slower than what i do on the track. unless the road is open with clear sight then its all go!

also another downer is where i ride you don't come across many good drivers (well... less then any other place) so you need to be on your game with plenty of abitlity to pull yourself in under a dodgy moment.

WINJA
23rd July 2005, 12:20
Its all about being smooth! :rockon:
JASON MCEWAN IS NOT VERY SMOOTH YET HES VERY FAST ,INFACT I RECKON MCEWAN MAY BE THE BEST THIS COUNTRY EVER SAW , SET UP WHATS SET UP JUST PUT GAS IN IT AND HE WILL BULLY ANY BIKE