Characteristics of a triple?

[Chisanga]

Bit of a newbie question, have done a quick search with no joy.

I know the basic differences between a V-twin engine, an inline-four and a two-stroke but could the knowledgable ones out there explain to me the basic characteristics of a "triple" engine such as used a lot in Triumphs.

Also if there are other major engine configurations that are used regularly could you let me know.

Cheers for your help.

Stay Safe :)

[McJim]

Other configurations:
Boxer Twin (BMW)
L2 (Ducati)
L4 (Ducati Desmo16)
V4 (Honda VFR/RVF)
Parallel Twin
V5 (Moto GP)
Boxer 4 (Goldwing)

Dunno what the attributes of IL3 are though - ZRXER should be able to help as he has got one.

[Chisanga]

Cheers McJim,

So much I don't know :) I'd like to see someone come up with characteristics of all of those - would be most impressive. I love learning about all this stuff - I have virtually no knowledge on mechanical things.

[rwh]

Other configurations:
Boxer Twin (BMW)
L2 (Ducati)
L4 (Ducati Desmo16)
V4 (Honda VFR/RVF)
Parallel Twin
V5 (Moto GP)
Boxer 4 (Goldwing)


Hmm. So what's the difference between an L2 and a V2? Also I think some goldwings and valkyries had a boxer 6 ...

Richard

[Bonez]

Single.:yes:

[McJim]

V2 up to 90 degrees
L2 beyond 90 degrees

then you've got transverse V2 (Moto Guzzi) Rotary (Norton)

Just about any configuration of 1 or more pistons has been used by some manufacturer at some time or other.

If you look at Bikez.com for the spec of things like the Triumph triple you can see hp versus capacity versus torque versus redline which will give you a fair idea of how the engine works.

e.g. Ducati 750ss Redline about 10K - max power 62 hp max torque 60 Nm. therefore L twin = low revs, low power per cc huge torque.

Also cranks can be changed to give different attributes to an engine.

The permutations are almost endless.

[Ixion]

Squariel .

[rwh]

V2 up to 90 degrees
L2 beyond 90 degrees
Fair enough. I'd always heard Ducatis described as v-twins, though.


then you've got transverse V2 (Moto Guzzi) Rotary (Norton)

Is that really the normal way to describe the Moto Guzzi layout?

I would have thought that for consistency, you'd label it as transverse or longitudonal based on which way the crank lies, rather than the overall dimensions of the motor - so most IL4s are transverse, but so is my VT250, while a Guzzi or BMW (typical boxer twin varieties) would be longitudonal.

Seems messy and illogical if you describe a GSXR and a Guzzi as both being transverse.

Richard

[vifferman]

You'll never get to the end of this thread.

You've missed out inline 6s, jet turbines (Y2K), V8 bikes (MotoGuzzi, Boss Hawg, etc.), V3s, the odd (very odd!) radial-engined bike, and then all those really weird engines like the 6-stroke; diesel-engined bikes.......

[McJim]

Aye, yer right enough - I had it arse about face - longditudinal is where the cylinders hang oot the sides transverse is where they line them up neatly behind the front wheel.

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong!

[Bonez]

Fair enough. I'd always heard Ducatis described as v-twins, though.

Is that really the normal way to describe the Moto Guzzi layout?

I would have thought that for consistency, you'd label it as transverse or longitudonal based on which way the crank lies, rather than the overall dimensions of the motor - so most IL4s are transverse, but so is my VT250,
RichardNope. For your etification- http://www.answers.com/topic/v-twin

Transverse and longtitundinal relates to cylinder layout not crank layout.

[Bonez]

Aye, yer right enough - I had it arse about face - longditudinal is where the cylinders hang oot the sides transverse is where they line them up neatly behind the front wheel.

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong!You weren't wrong.

[Scouse]

Ok not an absolute rule but generally speaking the less cylenders you have the more torque you get as I say this is a general rule somthing to do with for a given capacity less cylenders equate to bigger piston stroke and for some reason that some of the more tecnicaly minded my care to explane longer strokes = more torque

[McJim]

You weren't wrong.

Hmmm - wikipedia telt me ah wiz spoutin' shite again. Ah always kent wikipedia was full o' it.

Cheers bud.

[RC1]

You'll never get to the end of this thread........ :corn: :drinkup:

[rwh]

Nope. For your etification- http://www.answers.com/topic/v-twin

Transverse and longtitundinal relates to cylinder layout not crank layout.

That page references the BMW document, which only uses the word 'transverse' in conjunction with the cylinders, not the whole engine.

I've certainly seen this used here before, and I'm sure it's widely used elsewhere too - but it still seems wrong to me :innocent:

Of course, in my opinion the usage of latitude and longitude for plotting global position is linguistically backwards too, but I'm never going to get that fixed ...

Richard

[Edit: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_engine. Obviously talking about cars. despite the term 'vehicle', but to make that distinction seems bogus too.]

[Scouse]

Hmmm - wikipedia telt me ah wiz spoutin' shite again. Ah always kent wikipedia was full o' it.

Cheers bud.Nah in a cage an east/west configureation is called transverse as in the good ole Morris 1100 they had a transverse engine so IL4's are Transverse rocket 3's are not transverse

[Bonez]

That page references the BMW document, which only uses the word 'transverse' in conjunction with the cylinders, not the whole engine.

I've certainly seen this used here before, and I'm sure it's widely used elsewhere too - but it still seems wrong to me :innocent:

Of course, in my opinion the usage of latitude and longitude for plotting global position is linguistically backwards too, but I'm never going to get that fixed ...

Richard

[Edit: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transverse_engine. Obviously talking about cars. despite the term 'vehicle', but to make that distinction seems bogus too.]Have read of a few motorcycle mags that describe the various engine layouts of the bikes tested then get back to us.;)

Edit- You did note the term "convention" in relation to motorcycle engine lay outs on that wikipedia page I posted?

[Motu]

As for riding them - a 750cc twin,triple and inline 4.....a big twin is all about bottom end grunt,sure they will rev,but get inefficient at higher revs.A 4 cyl is a revbox,they will make seamless power from whoa to go,but are better at high revs.A triple really does fit in the middle,they love to rev,but will still ''hang on'' in the lower rpms.

And of course the best thing about a triple is the noise!

[rwh]

Have read of a few motorcycle mags that describe the various engine layouts of the bikes tested then get back to us.;)

Edit- You did note the term "convention" in relation to motorcycle engine lay outs on that wikipedia page I posted?

As in 'the convention used below ...'? Yes - they more or less state both conventions are used, so they had to pick one and use it for their article. They didn't claim it was necessarily 'correct'. :whocares: (actually I care, but you probably don't care about that :rofl:)

Richard

[James Deuce]

Aye, yer right enough - I had it arse about face - longditudinal is where the cylinders hang oot the sides transverse is where they line them up neatly behind the front wheel.

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong!

You were right the first time!

Indian made inline 4s. They run along the frame between the headstock and seat.

Most modern transverse 4s are incorrectly described as inline - they aren't inline at all. The are transverse to the direction the frame of the bike travels.

[James Deuce]

Square 4s!

[Bonez]

As in 'the convention used below ...'? Yes - they more or less state both conventions are used, so they had to pick one and use it for their article. They didn't claim it was necessarily 'correct'. :whocares: (actually I care, but you probably don't care about that :rofl:)

RichardThe whole motorcycle industry seems to have used this convention, so they must care:scooter:

Mind things have gotten confusing lately. Ducatis use to be V2s now they are L2s and in 20 years will probably be 270 degree twins ;)

[rwh]

You were right the first time!

Indian made inline 4s. They run along the frame between the headstock and seat.

Most modern transverse 4s are incorrectly described as inline - they aren't inline at all. The are transverse to the direction the frame of the bike travels.

Um - surely the term 'inline' merely refers to the cylinders relationship to each other, not to the vehicle? I'd talk about a 'transverse inline 4' for a gsxr, or a longitudonal inline 3 (or triple) for a Rocket III. Or would you prefer the term 'straight' for that?

Of course, Bonez' wikipedia page claimed that a V-twin was really a V2 if they didn't share a crankpin, which would make an inline twin hard to build and an inline triple (if that has the same meaning) damn near impossible ... you could do a W-triple though - or a radial triple. Fun!

Richard

[RantyDave]

Try again ... the first one got borked.

Basically, twins have more torque down low but rev lower and hence produce less power per cc. Fours have less torque down low but rev higher and hence produce more power per cc. Triples are half way between the two.

Torque is a factor of cyclinder size. Power is a factor of how much fuel air mix can be burned in a given time (basically capacity x revs).

Go here - http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=3301&Page=2

Dave

[James Deuce]

Um - surely the term 'inline' merely refers to the cylinders relationship to each other, not to the vehicle? I'd talk about a 'transverse inline 4' for a gsxr, or a longitudonal inline 3 (or triple) for a Rocket III. Or would you prefer the term 'straight' for that?

Of course, Bonez' wikipedia page claimed that a V-twin was really a V2 if they didn't share a crankpin, which would make an inline twin hard to build and an inline triple (if that has the same meaning) damn near impossible ... you could do a W-triple though - or a radial triple. Fun!

Richard

Rocket = Inline 3. Gsxr = transverse 4. Just like the difference between front and rear wheel drive cars.

Volkswagen make W5 engines. Very narrow angle. Near perfect primary balance.

[rwh]

Rocket = Inline 3. Gsxr = transverse 4. Just like the difference between front and rear wheel drive cars.


Sure. But what about the VFR (transverse V4 IMO) or Boss Hoss (longitudonal V8)?

Richard

[James Deuce]

And??????????

[rwh]

And??????????

Well, your use of inline where I use longitudonal would make the Boss Hoss an inline V8, which in my preferred terminology would be an oxymoron. And if I said transverse 4, that could either be a straight/inline 4 or a v4 (or a boxer 4 for that matter, but I haven't seen one of those mounted transversely ...)

Also, I'm not sure how you'd describe a typical Masport. Vertical single? :rofl:

All a bloody mess, and we'll probably just have to live with it :yes:

Richard

[James Deuce]

You're thinking far too hard about this!

[Motu]

Also, I'm not sure how you'd describe a typical Masport. Vertical single? :rofl:


Vertical shaft - standard terminology.You are making problems where there are none,you aren't thinking very hard at all.

[El Dopa]

As for riding them - a 750cc twin,triple and inline 4.....a big twin is all about bottom end grunt,sure they will rev,but get inefficient at higher revs.A 4 cyl is a revbox,they will make seamless power from whoa to go,but are better at high revs.A triple really does fit in the middle,they love to rev,but will still ''hang on'' in the lower rpms.

And of course the best thing about a triple is the noise!

Thankyou Motu.

One question, 29 replies. One of which answers the question (yeah I know ZRXER sort of did, but not in as much detail).

[doc]

Thankyou Motu.

One question, 29 replies. One of which answers the question (yeah I know ZRXER sort of did, but not in as much detail).
If you judge it by noise broadly speaking

V-twin attitude (look at me stuff)

Triples undecided (can't make up their mind they want something else)

4 cylinder practical (no character,boring, but have the final say)

What do you reckon should have been a shrink?

[Motu]

Triples undecided (can't make up their mind they want something else)



Have you ever heard a triple? They have a sound all of their own,the best sound of any motor.

Check these suckers out,to hear one in the flesh sends shivers up your spine....

http://www.commer.org.nz/Commer%20Connections/movies.html

[xwhatsit]

Meh. Nobody should ever need more than 640 cylinders...

[doc]

Have you ever heard a triple? They have a sound all of their own,the best sound of any motor.

Check these suckers out,to hear one in the flesh sends shivers up your spine....

http://www.commer.org.nz/Commer%20Connections/movies.html

Yep had a T150, and a Waterbucket (first one in the Sth Island) don't do it for me. Give me a Hardley or a Duke any day but I ride a 4 and a vtwin, each to his own. Friends like their triples one even has a T150 since new and a mint T160 but presently has a new Buell. Go figure we all need help.

[Chisanga]

Gee I come back from football and find a myriad of answers and my head is aching to try and make sense of them all :)

I agree about the sound of the Triple - went I was picking up my bike from it's service at AMPS a customer was taking a Speed Triple out for a test ride and it sounded incredible. That was part of the reason for answering the question in fact.

Thanks to all who contributed to answering my question. It looks like I need to do a lot more reading about all things bike to increase my knowledge :)

[James Deuce]

Have you ever heard a triple? They have a sound all of their own,the best sound of any motor.

Check these suckers out,to hear one in the flesh sends shivers up your spine....

http://www.commer.org.nz/Commer%20Connections/movies.html

Prefer an Audi 5 cylinder myself.

[T.W.R]

A good triple sounds & performs like nothing else :yes:

having had three triples :shit: mmm interesting concept :shutup: a 750, 850, & the 1200 can say they're thoroughly intoxicating when set-up properly.

as for power it's smooth & linear :yes:

The XS750 yamaha had the most torque between 2-5000rpm of any comparable engine when released even more than a Kawasaki Z1000 at the time:yes:

The 850 I had, I could take to idle revs in top gear, roll the throttle on & it would pull away cleanly with no hesitation or drive-line snatch.

The 1200 :love: Harris 3-1 plus other goodies just made it an awesome mount :rockon:

[disenfranchised]

I was under the impression that the bore to stroke ratio made more difference to the engine characteristics than the layout.

With 4 cylinders each one has a smaller bore, so generally the bore to stroke ratio becomes smaller, resulting in an engine with less torque and more top end power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio

Wouldn't the layout just change the engine balance, centre of gravity etc, which would change how you mount it in the frame, design the bike etc...it might also change the nature of the turning forces on the crank slightly because of where each push is coming from as each cylinder fires.

[Lou Girardin]

Bit of a newbie question, have done a quick search with no joy.

I know the basic differences between a V-twin engine, an inline-four and a two-stroke but could the knowledgable ones out there explain to me the basic characteristics of a "triple" engine such as used a lot in Triumphs.

Also if there are other major engine configurations that are used regularly could you let me know.

Cheers for your help.

Stay Safe :)

As far as Triumphs are concerned, the best sound on the road (like a Merlin), huge bottom and mid-range torque, smooth power band, frugal with fuel.
Will that do?

[Motu]

A triple is also badly out of balance dynamicaly....perfect static balance of course,but when the motor is running it's a total mess.You can feel it in a long crank bike like the GT750,when idling the motor feels like it wants to throw itself out of the frame.The Daihatsu triple has a balance shaft,and it's a puzzle as it has a single lobe and runs at crankshaft speed.I did find an explanation and it's pretty simple really...but makes no sence if you look at it.Easiest way to balance a triple is put two back to back so the forces cancel out,but an inline six always needs a harmonic balancer on the shaft.

[Mr. Peanut]

Square 4s!

:love: 500cc BIG BANG TWO-STROKE SQUARE FOUR, GOOD GOD AND GREAT BALLS OF FIRE :bleh:

[Mr. Peanut]

.......e as it has a single lobe and runs at crankshaft speed.I did find an explanation and it's pretty simple really...but makes no sence if you look at it.Easiest way to balance a triple is put two back to back so the forces cancel out,but an inline six always needs a harmonic balancer on the shaft.

I though inline 6 engines had perfect primary and secondary balance?

[Motu]

They do,but the crazy triple forces are still there acting through the long crankshaft....the harmonic balancer balances out the harmonics....simple huh?

[magicfairy]

Latest BIKE magazine (UK mag, excellent) has a good article on different types on engines.

[Edbear]

but could the knowledgable ones out there explain to me the basic characteristics of a "triple" engine such as used a lot in Triumphs.Cheers for your help.

Stay Safe :)




They have three cylinders!:yes:

No probs! Just send a cheque...

[Edbear]

As far as Triumphs are concerned, the best sound on the road (like a Merlin), huge bottom and mid-range torque, smooth power band, frugal with fuel.
Will that do?



You don't happen to sell Triumphs, by chance do you, Lou...?:innocent:


Anyway, I tend to agree.

[McJim]

Thankyou Motu.

One question, 29 replies. One of which answers the question (yeah I know ZRXER sort of did, but not in as much detail).

There were actually two questions at the beginning - one of which got a sensible answer from me - odd I know but true nevertheless. :bleh: :Pokey:

[Chisanga]

As far as Triumphs are concerned, the best sound on the road (like a Merlin), huge bottom and mid-range torque, smooth power band, frugal with fuel.
Will that do?

Certainly will :) And I agree with you about the sound.

[Chisanga]

They have three cylinders!:yes:

No probs! Just send a cheque...

Simple and accurate :) Cheque's in the mail :done:

[El Dopa]

There were actually two questions at the beginning - one of which got a sensible answer from me - odd I know but true nevertheless. :bleh: :Pokey:

Oh...ah....um.....so there were.

Uh, well done, then.

Carry on.



......I'll get me coat.....

[Pixie]

Um - surely the term 'inline' merely refers to the cylinders relationship to each other, not to the vehicle? I'd talk about a 'transverse inline 4' for a gsxr, or a longitudonal inline 3 (or triple) for a Rocket III. Or would you prefer the term 'straight' for that?

Of course, Bonez' wikipedia page claimed that a V-twin was really a V2 if they didn't share a crankpin, which would make an inline twin hard to build and an inline triple (if that has the same meaning) damn near impossible ... you could do a W-triple though - or a radial triple. Fun!

Richard

You are correct.
The apparent confusion regarding bike power plants,stems from bike journalists, who are an ignorant bunch of bastards and don't know their arses from their elbows.
e.g. LCD stands for liquid crystal diode - according to some Kiwi Rider journo.

[Lou Girardin]

You don't happen to sell Triumphs, by chance do you, Lou...?:innocent:


Anyway, I tend to agree.

I don't sell bikes. But I do like the new Tiger. It reminds me of an over-inflated Speed triple.

[Devil]

I don't sell bikes. But I do like the new Tiger. It reminds me of an over-inflated Speed triple.

Have you got one in there yet? I want to see one.

Oh and the triumph triple gets me wet. hah. Ridden the Daytona 955i and the new Sprint ST, just about sold on the engines alone. Yum!

[El Dopa]

the triumph triple gets me wet.

If there's a leak in the radiator or the coolant, I'd take it back and get it looked at, if I were you.