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sinned
19th January 2007, 09:56
Discussion on today's Newstalk ZB between Larry Williams, Mike Hosking and Wendyl Nissen on riding Vespas. Larry said: "I had to put it down once myself - Car coming the other way - not my fault - I had to drop it"

How often have you heard the statement - "I had to drop it"? Who deliberately drops their bike? Have a listen here: http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/audio2/19103350.wma 2.50mins into the discussion.

My guess is one of the following occurred:
1). He applied the rear brake only and slide out of control
2). In panic turned the bar like a wheel - opposite happened - turned more, lowsided and slide down the road on his sorry arse.
Should have:
1) Used the front brake or
2) Counter steered to avoid the cage.

How many people would have listened to this discussion and formed an opinion on dropping a bike to avoid and accident?

Wasp
19th January 2007, 10:39
only heard one story of someone dropping it delibretly - they were headed into the back of a very menacing truck with no way to avoid it

James Deuce
19th January 2007, 10:44
I'm not even going to go there.

Except to say that there are very few incidents in human history where voluntarily giving up all attempts to manage your fate have resulted in anything other than death, injury, or tragedy.

Think about it for a couple of seconds: Throw away a perfectly controllable motorcycle that can provide a minimum of two options for escape or lessening the impact, or leap off and let the "Gods" sort it out amongst them?

I've yet to meet the "God" who gives a rat's banana about an individual human being.

If you're out of control and fall off, you didn't "drop" the bike deliberately. You fell off. Stop massaging your ego in public. It's embarrassing.

Ixion
19th January 2007, 10:52
I've done it offroad, when the alternative was going over a big cliff. But thats a bit different.

There could be occasions on the road where it might be better to drop and slide than hit upright. Maybe a train level crossing, with a long train going over it and you're not going to stop in time?

In general , I reckon it's best to hold onto control until the last possible moment.

DemonWolf
19th January 2007, 10:53
Interesting words Jim2... I tend to agree.

the only times I've deliberately dropped a bike, was, going into a corner too fast hitting gravel and ending up in a toitoi. second time, again going into a corner too fast misjudging and running off the road into gorse, third time clipped the end of a car and slid down a bank.. bah too numerious to recount here! and I've never deliberately dropped a bike, I stick to it like glue (or get thrown away from it involuntary)..

oh wait.. I do remember a time when I was a youngster on a farm bike when I jumped off the bike.. the throttle had jammed open and I got fricken scared and jumped off seconds before hitting trees\fence... but that was the only time!

buellbabe
19th January 2007, 10:54
hmmm... never gave this much thought altho I have heard people say the same thing "I put it down bla bla bla"
But now that I DO think about it I have to WHY would ya? I have hit the deck a few times over the years and in each case I tried my damndest to avoid that happening! BUT I have also been trapped underneath a bike and slid down the road unable to prevent the broken femur that resulted!
In hindsight if I had dumped the bike maybe that wouldn't have happened but "it all happened sooooo quickly" and isn't that usually the case?

Dai
19th January 2007, 11:02
Deliberately dropped the bike once.

A cage pulled out of a side road right in front of me.

I had the choice of going straight into his side at 30mph and going over the bars etc

or

wrenching the bike to impact side on whilst getting both legs over on the side that wasn't going to impact.

It was a split second decision and I'm glad I made it.

Bike was written off and I escaped with minor abrasions and a little bit of whiplash.

I hate to think what would have happened to me if I had of gone head on into the side of the car, or the passengers in the car. A broadside better than a head on-- oh yes.

Car driver's insurance company paid out a lot of money on that one.

buellbabe
19th January 2007, 11:09
Dai, you were extremely lucky to have the time to do that!

Dai
19th January 2007, 11:16
Dai, you were extremely lucky to have the time to do that!

Didnt even think about it, really.

It was the "Oh F**%, Im going to hit him, RUN AWAY" factor.

also by then it was 25 years of riding bikes and crashing them.

As with everything, you do something often enough or for long enough then instinct takes over and you go on auto pilot.

This brings back the age old arguement about experience and time on bikes.

The longer and more often you ride the more your actions become instinctual.

Also I am a big cry baby and I dint want to get hurt. Time really does slow down in an accident.

Motu
19th January 2007, 11:20
I've done it on a speedway track with a stuck throttle,and it's fairly common with speedway riders to lay the bike down when there is trouble ahead - they have no brakes and if they did the consequences would be far worse under braking.I've heard of guys laying a bike down and going under a truck trailer.If I was in a situation where I weighed it up as the best option I wouldn't hesitate to lay it down.Don't think your way into a box,it might not be safe in there....

Dai
19th January 2007, 11:23
I've done it on a speedway track with a stuck throttle,and it's fairly common with speedway riders to lay the bike down when there is trouble ahead - they have no brakes and if they did the consequences would be far worse under braking.I've heard of guys laying a bike down and going under a truck trailer.If I was in a situation where I weighed it up as the best option I wouldn't hesitate to lay it down.Don't think your way into a box,it might not be safe in there....


Maybe it was my early training that kicked in. 3 years racing on the beach with the Papakura Motorcycle Club in the early to mid 70's. For ever laying a bike sideways in that sport just to get round the flags..:done:

buellbabe
19th January 2007, 11:29
Didnt even think about it, really.

It was the "Oh F**%, Im going to hit him, RUN AWAY" factor.

also by then it was 25 years of riding bikes and crashing them.

As with everything, you do something often enough or for long enough then instinct takes over and you go on auto pilot.

This brings back the age old arguement about experience and time on bikes.

The longer and more often you ride the more your actions become instinctual.


Yeah... I have been riding as long as you mate and agree with the instinct thing but have still never deliberately dropped a bike! Guess I have not found myself in a situation where I needed to?

Motu
19th January 2007, 11:34
Maybe it was my early training that kicked in. 3 years racing on the beach with the Papakura Motorcycle Club in the early to mid 70's. For ever laying a bike sideways in that sport just to get round the flags..:done:

Oh yeah,I've done it on the beach too - flying down the beach I saw some people sitting up in the dunes,then I saw they had fishing lines out to the water! I put the bike down as the quickest way to stop on that surface.

pervert
19th January 2007, 11:48
I take a dive off dirt bikes all the time, it's often the best option in many situations...for example; I would rather the bike tumble down a 5 metre cliff by itself than with me trying to stay on...:laugh:

...don't know if I would be game to jump off a road bike though...:shit:

sunhuntin
19th January 2007, 13:13
never done and hope to never have to. i have laid a bike down once while learning to ride on fresh mowed grass....thats shits slippery! but it wasnt deliberate.
id rather try and stay with the bike [preferably on top] but my first off, i knew if i stayed on, itd be suicide. so i left her to her own devices and saved my ass first.
the last "off" i could see two options...deliberatly put her down and end up having time off work and off riding when theres no staff to cover, or stay on, hope for the best and not have time off work. that option would have taken out myself and also the guy i was riding with. plus, being a rarely used road, have two busted bikes was not an option...i could have pillioned with him if needed.
took the second option, stayed upright even when stopped, and went back to work the next day barely able to lift the pumps.
i did hear of a guy who deliberatly put himself under the bike to protect it :shit: and i like to think id do that myself, but self preservation is laughing in my face.

and it is true, that time slows down while an accident is being acted out...im beginning to remember thoughts from both accidents that i didnt realise id had at the time. it slows down, but still goes so fast.

The Stranger
19th January 2007, 13:34
Deliberately dropped the bike once.

A cage pulled out of a side road right in front of me.

I had the choice of going straight into his side at 30mph and going over the bars etc


So how fast were you travelling to start with?

Squeak the Rat
19th January 2007, 13:44
How many people would have listened to this discussion and formed an opinion on dropping a bike to avoid and accident?

The guy's a goose. There are cases where dropping a bike is the best option but they are rare and require some quick-smart accurate threat assessment. IMHO about to hit a stationary car is not one of these cases. I'll take my chances going over top having used the extra bit of distance to slow down with rubber on road rather than body on road then solid object.

We can only be thankful that there probably aren't too many learner riders or potential riders tuned into ZB.

Dai
19th January 2007, 14:21
So how fast were you travelling to start with?

30 MPH (50KPH). One of the few times I have ever deliberately stuck to the speed limit. Hence the reason I remember it so vividly.

kevfromcoro
19th January 2007, 14:29
nah ..ditch the bike.....i have done it many times..of road..wouldent hesitate to do it on road.....solid obejects aient that nice..if u are wearing a bit of protective gear..u will get away with a few minor scratches...stay away from buses...trees.. concrete walls....its a bit of a split decesion to make...... but survivle its wots its about......RIDE...SAFE...KEV

NighthawkNZ
19th January 2007, 14:39
captain goes down with his ship :lol:

Squeak the Rat
19th January 2007, 14:42
I had the choice of going straight into his side at 30mph and going over the bars etc

30 MPH (50KPH). One of the few times I have ever deliberately stuck to the speed limit. Hence the reason I remember it so vividly.

So you wouldn't have hit the car at 30mph?


How far away was the car when it pulled out?

If you had instigated an emergency stop, at what speed would you have been going when you hit the car?

Did you slide into the car?

Dai
19th January 2007, 14:50
So you wouldn't have hit the car at 30mph?


How far away was the car when it pulled out?

If you had instigated an emergency stop, at what speed would you have been going when you hit the car?

Did you slide into the car?

Didnt have a chance to do an emergency stop.

Distance? 10 years ago. Car in front turning left into street I'm starting to go past it on the outside, car in the side road to the left suddenly pulls out to turn right on the main road I was on. Distance , mmmmm , F*#K all, reaction time even less.

Bike went sideways to the left and broadsided the car. I slide in behind it.

Witnesses, cops, cage driver and insurance companies all agreed I did everything I could to avoid the accident. Cage driver took all the blame. He "didnt see me". ZZR1100 Bright blue and purple, headlights blazing, road clear and I was wearing a bright yellow safety jacket. I looked like an explosion in a paint factory.

Shadows
19th January 2007, 20:02
If I was unfortunate enough to be in possession of a Vespa I'd probably drop it too. The only difference would be that it would involve a tall building and I certainly wouldn't be sitting on the thing at the time.

Lou Girardin
19th January 2007, 20:20
C'mon, everyone knows that footpegs and metal parts slow a bike far faster then brakes and tyre rubber.
It's just fisics, innit?

Motu
19th January 2007, 20:50
Your lack of motorcycling experiance is showing Lou - that's exactly why you lay it down off road,on a speedway track or on the beach.But you have only ridden on the road.....

Ixion
19th January 2007, 20:57
Yes, sand will slow a bike on its side (or a person) very fast.

So too, if there is brush or undergrowth, you will usually stop quite quickly (maybe a bit bruised). Which is relevant , since roadsides often have suitable ground cover. That would be the main situation I can think of where I'd lay it down. If the choice was to hit something on the road - no time to stop, or head off the road, with a cliff or bank coming up. I have always been uneasy about the prospect of riding over a cliff face (sand dunes can be buggers too).

pritch
20th January 2007, 08:10
C'mon, everyone knows that footpegs and metal parts slow a bike far faster then brakes and tyre rubber.
It's just fisics, innit?

Good one Lou! :laugh:

Once upon a time "riding it into the ground" was talked about as an option in dire circumstances. Maybe our brakes weren't as good back then?

There may be circumstances where it would be better to low side the bike and let it go, the bike weighs more and will travel further than you. Like Lou said it's basic fisics and kinetic energy and all that...

James Deuce
20th January 2007, 09:47
Yeah, but brakes slow you down far faster than leather, or a swandri and yellow rain pants, or skin on tarseal.

scumdog
20th January 2007, 09:59
Dai, you were extremely lucky to have the time to do that!

That's what I was thinking, at even 50kph you may have (if lucky) 3-4 seconds to :
See hazard,
Recognise it's 'importance' to your potential future,
Consider options, (brake/swerve left or swerve right/hit hazard/drop bike. etc)
Pick the option that (you hope) will work best,
Act! (and pray!!)

To see a car pull out of a side-street so close to you that you cannot stop and pick the option to drop the bike must require some outstanding thought/reaction time IMHO....

Macktheknife
20th January 2007, 10:13
I don't recall ever having dropped the bike deliberately, but I have 'got off' as a last option. When I realised that I had no time left to avoid the very large post in my way, I thought 'I just need to make sure my body doesn't hit that', so I jumped. Bike was pretty fucked but I was not anywhere near as bad.
Seemed to me then, and now, that it was the best option.

scumdog
20th January 2007, 10:18
I don't recall ever having dropped the bike deliberately, but I have 'got off' as a last option. When I realised that I had no time left to avoid the very large post in my way, I thought 'I just need to make sure my body doesn't hit that', so I jumped. Bike was pretty fucked but I was not anywhere near as bad.
Seemed to me then, and now, that it was the best option.

I agree in your case.
There is a difference between a fixed object (fence-post) that 'somehow' got in your way and a mobile object(car pulling out of side-street) that may not do as you would expect (or as you would WANT to!)

Hans
21st January 2007, 11:15
If you're out of control and fall off, you didn't "drop" the bike deliberately. You fell off. Stop massaging your ego in public. It's embarrassing.


I'd say you're right I have my opinion of most people who ride scooters and scooters only. They're a bit like pushbikers with a smallish motor. And we know what most of those are like.

bluninja
22nd January 2007, 07:43
The Greatest Oxymoron of all (http://www.msgroup.org/TIP092.html) according to the Master Strategy Group.

I've read the posts about dumping off road, and can appreciate them in that you may slow down faster off the bike than on it. However on tarmac dropping the bike to avoid an accident is crackers...yeah yeah, apart from sliding underneath some decapitating trailer or barrier!

Apart from not slowing as quickly as on your bike; you can't steer and direct yourself away from danger off the bike.

Had I dropped my bike to avoid the tractor in my path I would have hit it much faster (depending on how early I had bailed) and the impact would have killed me....assuming I hit the rear wheel and not gone under and been driven over (he didn't stop for 10 metres after the impact).

The Stranger
22nd January 2007, 07:44
To see a car pull out of a side-street so close to you that you cannot stop and pick the option to drop the bike must require some outstanding thought/reaction time IMHO....


Yesterday we picked a reasonably capable noob (on an older 250) from the RRRS course and got him to perform 2 test stops from 50kph. First one front brake only he stopped in 8m, second one using both front and rear he stopped in 7m. As a guess an experienced rider on a newish sport bike could have knocked a metre off of that.

Of course, he was expecting to stop at a given point so reaction time would extend these figures in a real world situation.

But yeah, have to agree with scummy here - I think you got to be good to outperform that with a lay the bike down and slide approach.

Roj
24th January 2007, 09:07
Can't say I have deliberately dropped a bike, but have had a bike low side when I reacted wrong, I then took the choice of letting go because the bike was sliding towards the car that had pulled out in front of me, I wasn't going all that fast, rolled away with no serious damage, other than a bent footpeg and dented ego

Denniso
26th January 2007, 20:40
As far as tar seal goes bugger crashing to prevent a crash , thats exactly what droping it to avoid a crash is doing .Personaly I will try my damdest to stay on the bike and have supprised the hell out of myself several times by saving the impossable ( if I can just kiss the front guard I may be able to save it ). Stay with the bike till bars touch down then kick the bastard well away ( two hospital visits from bike catching me and getting payback oops ). Yes I know you dont always have a lot of time to react in some road incidents but try to give yourself as many chances as possable , a bike has handlebars and brakes I have yet to find leathers that are fitted with these .

avgas
26th January 2007, 20:57
im just stupid and hit shit. i like the bang sound