NCEA grading - more PC rubbish

[rogson]

My daughter just received her NCEA results.

When I asked her what her marks were - she couldn't tell me.

Turns out you don't gets marks - you get Es, Ms, As, and Ns (and possibly other letters I couldn't be bothered with) instead.

I looked for an F - for Failed. But no-one fails, the worst you can do is Non-achieve (that's the N).

[far queue]

Turns out you don't gets marksMy daughter needed to get 8 credits in English, 8 credits in Maths, and a total of 80 credits from all subjects for a pass. She ended up getting 16 in English, 33 in Maths, and 102 in total. This means she can carry 20 credits over to next year so that she now needs to get 60 credits next year for a pass instead of 80.

Umm, I guess she got marks. Did your daughter get her results from the net, or in the mail, or both? If she's only checked one, maybe the full results are on the other?

[hXc]

My daughter just received her NCEA results.

When I asked her what her marks were - she couldn't tell me.

Turns out you don't gets marks - you get Es, Ms, As, and Ns (and possibly other letters I couldn't be bothered with) instead.

I looked for an F - for Failed. But no-one fails, the worst you can do is Non-achieve (that's the N).Sounds like someone doesn't open their eyes. Your daughter will have marks - let me re-phrase that: Your daughter has marks. Her marks are the N's, A's, M's and E's. If you pass a certain standard (paper), you get credits. The amount of credits will vary from paper to paper.

You need 80 credits to pass, as far queue said, and if you get over 80, 20 of them can be carried over to next year. It's a good system, but some things just need to be ironed out.

If you actually paid any attention to your daughters schooling or notices, there would have been NCEA information nights that you could/should have gone to, which explains the way it all works.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=42347 - Check that thread, it explains it in a few posts.


This post is by no means a personal dig, nor is it meant to cause offence, but the facts are all in front of you, you just need to open your eyes. Really, it's not that hard.

[MattRSK]

It's a bullshit system. Yet are you surprised?

[Wasp]

My daughter just received her NCEA results.

When I asked her what her marks were - she couldn't tell me.

Turns out you don't gets marks - you get Es, Ms, As, and Ns (and possibly other letters I couldn't be bothered with) instead.

I looked for an F - for Failed. But no-one fails, the worst you can do is Non-achieve (that's the N).
I think YOU need to pull your head out of the sand

this isnt true but treat an E as 90% mark on a test, M as say 75% and A as 50% (this being related to questions answered right, not the old school C 50/50 grade system), a N is the same as an F and they ARE possible to get - get too many and there goes university entrance

If your daughter cant tell you what i just told you then shes either:

a) sparing you and your old school stuck up ways (i hope its this one mate)
or
b) not paying ANY attention in school AT ALL in which case she deserves every N that she gets (if it is this one then prehaps you should look at yourself in leading her down this stuck up path to rejecting NCEA)

this post really pissed me off mate, sorry if i offend you but seriously the most common question at the start of 5th form (level 1) is "how does the marking system work?"

[far queue]

... If you actually paid any attention to your daughters schooling or notices, there would have been NCEA information nights that you could/should have gone to, which explains the way it all works...

...This post is by no means a personal dig, nor is it meant to cause offence, but the facts are all in front of you, you just need to open your eyes. Really, it's not that hard.
You may have been a bit harsh here mate. Rogson doesn't say he's seen the results himself, he says "When I asked her what her marks were - she couldn't tell me." So, that would lead me to assume he hasn't seen them for himself. Also you appear to assume that he is a father that has been provided with all the information necessary to sort this out, which may be the case.

Using my daughter as an example again - She lives with my ex-wife, my ex-wife has filled her head with bullshit to the extent that I see little of her these days. My ex-wife doesn't pass any information on to me - I don't get to see school notices, I don't hear about school meetings until afterwards. It's a hard job tracking information down, and trying to find what's going on. It's very easy to be ill-informed or un-informed. I got the results from her because I called her to get them when I heard from others that they were out, not because the family was waiting to tell me when I got home.

So, as I say, I don't know what Rogson's circumstances are, but people here are very quick to jump to conclusions. You may be right, but then again ...?

[Wasp]

i think jumping to the conclusion that if Rogson's daughter ACTUALLY cant tell him what it all means then there is something VERY wrong.

also i dont like the title of this thread, what has this got to do with being pc?

[Jantar]

Her marks are the N's, A's, M's and E's. If you pass a certain standard (paper), you get credits. The amount of credits will vary from paper to paper. .
The N's, A's, M's and E's are results, but they are not marks. In fact as far as telling a potential employer just how well a candidate has performed they are useless. Marks are either a raw number, or a percentage.
So sorry hXc, but on this maths test you have just scored 'Not yet achieved'.

[hXc]

The N's, A's, M's and E's are results, but they are not marks. In fact as far as telling a potential employer just how well a candidate has performed they are useless. Marks are either a raw number, or a percentage.
So sorry hXc, but on this maths test you have just scored 'Not yet achieved'.In NCEA, that is your mark. You don't get a raw number or percentage. You can tell your 'mark' from your A/M/E.
A = 50-70%
M = 70-85%
E = 85-100%

So sorry Jantar, but on this knowledge test, you have just scored an N - Not achieved. Or less than 50% for those that don't have the cranial capacity to understand this piss easy system.

[Wasp]

yup jantar, sorry but hxc is right

edit: just saw your age - you are excused, i mean cmon how could you have knowen

[Jantar]

In NCEA, that is your mark. You don't get a raw number or percentage. You can tell your 'mark' from your A/M/E.
A = 50-70%
M = 70-85%
E = 85-100%

So sorry Jantar, but on this knowledge test, you have just scored an N - Not achieved. Or less than 50% for those that don't have the cranial capacity to understand this piss easy system.

Oh dear, hXc, I can see we are really going to have a disagreement over this. If two people apply for a job, and in the rtelevent subject they both have M. There is no way to tell which has the better knowledge. One may have scored 71% and the other 84%, a massive difference in knowledge when related to standard distribution. The M does not tell their marks, only that they both scored within a similar range.

Now before we go too far along the lines that "In NCEA, that is your mark. You don't get a raw number or percentage" I should point out that in some subjects the students DO get a raw mark or percentage, although that is not universal. I am representitve on a working group that sets an ITO's unit standard criteria, and I also set exams that are used in assessing candidates at level 5 and 6, so I do understand how NCEA is meant to work. I also understand why it doesn't work. :yes:

I would also point out that an N is not neccessarily less than 50%. In many subjects it is less than 30% and in the exams I set it is less than 80%.

As an assesor you have also just scored N

[xwhatsit]

I don't see the problem -- I didn't sit secondary school under this system, I was overseas, but it's very easy to understand. You've just got to get your head around the fact that instead of A, B, C, D, E, it's just been renamed to E, M, A, and N (after all, does it really matter how much you failed by, other than that you couldn't pass the course? That's how it is in uni).

I don't see what `PC' has to do with it. I assume you're making a poke at the `N' bit, but it's just an `F' (or `E') renamed -- and after all, what significance does an `F' carry, compared to a blunt `Not Achieved'? PC's got nothing to do with it.

[hXc]

Blah blah blah...Well how I understand it, is how I wrote it. I'm the one actually doing it and passing it, so somehow, I don't quite agree with you.

[MidnightMike]

Well how I understand it, is how I wrote it. I'm the one actually doing it and passing it, so somehow, I don't quite agree with you.


I agree to disagree.

( Im with hxc btw.) :dodge:

[merv]

One thing about this forum is it forces all of us, even the youth of today on here, to try and at least spell things properly or we suffer the wrath of spell nazi Hitler Hitcher.

The reason I raise this is I have been appalled over the last 10 years at work having young people come to the office that spell so badly even the spell checker on the PC can't guess the right word for them - that leads to the problem that they click on the best guess and its not even the word they should be using. I can't fathom how they ever got a Uni degree with the need to write reports and do exams.

Is NCEA doing anything about restoring that skill or will KB continue through Hitcher's help to be the economic powerhouse saviour of this country?

[hXc]

Spelling blah blahI'm fifteen, nothin' wrong with my spelling...Is there?:done:

[Motu]

A = 50-70%
M = 70-85%
E = 85-100%

.

So what's wrong with numbers? Why have they replaced numbers 1 to 100 with 4 letters? Everyone can understand a numerical system....should we replace the celcius scale with letters? V,H,M,T and B?

[merv]

I'm fifteen, nothin' wrong with my spelling...Is there?:done:

Nah you're good, that's why I'm praising KB, those on here are forced to spell right or the Fuhrer gives you a lesson.

As for NCEA, we went through it all in my household as my daughter was one of the guinea pig year and at times I could see it wasn't very motivating to her. Now about to start 3rd year Uni she has been a couple years back with a more traditional kind of marking system and she has been happy with that for sure.

[Michaelt]

As for NCEA, we went through it all in my household as my daughter was one of the guinea pig year and at times I could see it wasn't very motivating to her. Now about to start 3rd year Uni she has been a couple years back with a more traditional kind of marking system and she has been happy with that for sure.

I'm also about to start my 3rd year at uni, however I loved NCEA.

Unbelievably easy to get university entrance under NCEA, made my last few years at school a breeze.

Uni requires a bit more hard work and dedication unfortunately, still can't quite get used to it.

[Ixion]

So what's wrong with numbers? Why have they replaced numbers 1 to 100 with 4 letters? Everyone can understand a numerical system....should we replace the celcius scale with letters? V,H,M,T and B?

Given that if the temperature is 273 degrees I dont know whether I'm fried or frozen, unless someone adds whether it is C F or K that may not be a good example.

[Rhino]

The reason I raise this is I have been appalled over the last 10 years at work having young people come to the office that spell so badly even the spell checker on the PC can't guess the right word for them - that leads to the problem that they click on the best guess and its not even the word they should be using. I can't fathom how they ever got a Uni degree with the need to write reports and do exams.

Is NCEA doing anything about restoring that skill or will KB continue through Hitcher's help to be the economic powerhouse saviour of this country?
Well said Merv. Spelling and grammar appear to have vanished from the current school curriculum.:yes: The problem with relying on the spell checker in MS-Word is that on many installs it is set to US spelling by default. This means that our NCEA whiz types in "color" and it is accepted, along with "organize" and other American spellings.:shit:

Let us hope that Hitcher keeps on keeping on.:first:

[xwhatsit]

Well said Merv. Spelling and grammar appear to have vanished from the current school curriculum.:yes: The problem with relying on the spell checker in MS-Word is that on many installs it is set to US spelling by default. This means that our NCEA whiz types in "color" and it is accepted, along with "organize" and other American spellings.:shit:

Let us hope that Hitcher keeps on keeping on.:first:

That's a worldwide thing, and has absolutely nothing to do with NCEA. NCEA is like a flea compared to the elephant of global language shift. According to my Uni profs, it's to do with *insert buzzword here* and *something long and difficult to remember, but I still passed OK so it couldn't have been important*.

I think people just need to read more (really old) books. That's how I learned (or re-learned) English, from Dickens and those geezers. They've been translated into many languages, which makes it easy. I think that might be why many second-language immigrants often speak much better (formal) English than we do.

[Romeo]

<Blockquote>NCEA was pretty pathetic really, it doesn't encourage you to do anything but the bare minimum. For instance, you could spend 2 hours on a graphics design task to get an "achieved", 10 hours to get a "distinction", or if you were completely lacking a life you could spend 20+ hours to get an "excellence". All of which are worth the same amount of credits, and the reference to the fact that you achieved an "Excellence" for X task doesn't actually appear anywhere that's likely to be seen. All you get at the end of NCEA is "Congrats, you passed NCEA 1, 2 and 3". Does my future employer give a shit if I spent 20 hours on a pointless make-work task? I'm sure there are philosophical reasons for spending the 20 hours, but in reality it amounts to absolutely nothing.

Anyways, I struck it lucky. I was at the Christchurch College of Computing for 7th form. I'd passed NCEA3 within 6 months ;s. The whole system is retarded.
</Blockquote>

[scracha]

It's a shocker and it's no wonder so many "public" schools do the IB or Cambridge exams instead. As for the the uni's here...second rate. The government needs to:-
1) Stop trying to get so many students into further education, it's not a suitable choice for many.
2) Bring back apprenticeships
3) Link the number of further education places (and funding) in a particular subject to the demand for jobs.

[Karma]

I'm also about to start my 3rd year at uni, however I loved NCEA.

Unbelievably easy to get university entrance under NCEA, made my last few years at school a breeze.

Uni requires a bit more hard work and dedication unfortunately, still can't quite get used to it.


A ha! Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head there.

A large percentage of kids these days (not all I grant you) can't be bothered with exams and uni, so rather than getting them into trades etc... lets just make the exams easier and give them uni subsidys!

You'll end up with a similar system over here to what we've got in the UK, degree level academics working in call centres and bookshops. Personally with the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd done it differently, would've said no to uni and done a practical based course instead, any jobs you apply for these days have the whole 'must have 3 years working experience' which as a uni grad you just don't have.

[Coyote]

I got all achieveds for physics. I did the bare minimum to pass! I'm quite proud, I got the qualifications without any effort trying to excel

I'm continuing school next year, just make the most of what time I can spend at school to get as many NCEA qualifications possible. I'm most likely to get an apprenticeship next year but just in case I can become a car designer I'll need level 3 graphics. Plus in 7th form you can do whatever you like at metalwork :D

[MSTRS]

I'm with those that bemoan the fact that there are no 'marks' or percentages...
The fact that A, M and E all equal the same number of credits is bullshit. However, if the number of credits (ie marks) were different for each achievement level, then there would have been no reason to change the old system. Which would have been far more desireable to retain IMO. The only thing about NCEA that IS an improvement is the breakdown of each subjects' component parts - ie Maths now gives results in Algebra, Geometry, Statistics, Number, Problem solving (wtf), Probability. A prospective employer will know where a given applicant's strength lies.

[Storm]

Have to say that having seen and known folks on both sides of the fence-
NCEA blows big time. Teachers hate it, employers hate it, and students learn that you may as well just do the bare minimum, doesnt matter of you go the extra yard.
As someone else said, theres a bloody big difference between knowing half of the subject and knowing three quarters of it

[yungatart]

Not all teachers hate NCEA, nor do all students. Face it, the year 11's,12's and 13's who just got their results know no other system. I hated School C, Ue when I was at school too. Employers need to get a reality check too, it is the system we use and has been in place for a number of years now. There is plenty of easily accessible information out there for parents and employers.
Far Queue, approach your daughter's school - they wiil send newsletters, reports etc to you as well as to her mother, if you ask. Newsletters etc are often available on line, also.The school I work at sends out duplicates to heaps of families.

[Motig]

I too find it hard when theres no percentage mark, but things change, you just have to move with the times. I do like the idea of being accessed over the year rather than everything hanging on one exam at the end of the year. As long as NCEA is left alone we'll get used to it.

[alexthekidd]

I would also point out that an N is not neccessarily less than 50%. In many subjects it is less than 30% and in the exams I set it is less than 80%.

As an assesor you have also just scored N

Agreed, it is not necessarily less than 50%, i scored 95% on one test yet still got a N, missed 2 questions in a 3 question section, fail one section, 9 section test, (other 8 100%) and still get an N at the end of the day, ridiculous system

[ZorsT]

In NCEA, that is your mark. You don't get a raw number or percentage. You can tell your 'mark' from your A/M/E.
A = 50-70%
M = 70-85%
E = 85-100%

Thats the way it was designed, but it's not the way it works.
As Jantar pointed out, some pass rates are as high as 70%.
Its a real piss off when you end up being one mark off an E, and get the same recognition as someone who only just got an M. It has happened to me too many times, and I'm glad it'll never happen again.

I am glad that next year I'll be in a system thats fair, and that actually makes sence.

[ZorsT]

Agreed, it is not necessarily less than 50%, i scored 95% on one test yet still got a N, missed 2 questions in a 3 question section, fail one section, 9 section test, (other 8 100%) and still get an N at the end of the day, ridiculous system
A friend of mine failed a geography internal. He had finished the first 4 (?) sections to an execlence level, but ran out of time to complete the last. Even though he answered 80% of the questions correct, he failed.

[Swoop]

Is NCEA doing anything about restoring that skill?
Absolutely not.

The government needs to:-
2) Bring back apprenticeships
If you look, you might find that some areas did NOT abandon this tried-and-true method.

You'll end up with a similar system over here to what we've got in the UK, degree level academics working in call centres and bookshops.
That was happening back in the early '80's! The problem is where the schools encourage people to "strive for success" and educate themselves to a level where there are fewer jobs available, so the competition to get those jobs is even tougher. A classic example is the fact that becoming a plumber isn't everyones dream job, yet the financial reality is that plumbers are better paid than a lot of "executive" positions.

I'm with those that bemoan the fact that there are no 'marks' or percentages...
See my post regarding the 11 point grading system. The inherant unfairness of the unit standard system means that those who put in lots of effort Vs those who put in minimal effort are regularly given the same grade. The Scots have a lot to answer for all this...

[BuFfY]

Read most of this thread so thought I would add my 2 c.
I went through NCEA as a guinea pig... I did geography in both school c and 6th form cert. One thing a lot of people are forgetting is that if they look at their certificate for school c they will find they have a grade. I got a B. So who know whether my strength is in mapping skills... writing about erosion or in field work?
Yet with my NCEA I got E in mapping... blah blah blah.
Subjects like maths are where NCEA is useful. Your employer will know whether you were good at algebra or geometry.

As for not teaching grammar and spelling? Um take a look in a normal primary school and you will see that a lot of time goes into it. Children are expected from about year 2 to edit their own work. Even at high school essays, any written work is graded on spelling and grammar. Marks are taken off for too many of these.

Oh my god did I say marks?!?!!? If you look at marking rubric you will see exactly how it is done.

NCEA is a good system. It allows people who would normally fail a hope of actually having a qualification. Yet it allows people who want to succeed, who want to have better than an A to see exactly what they need to do to get the E that they want.

Parents can't say they don't understand it. Every school every year has meetings about it. There are websites for Africa on it!

[MisterD]

That was happening back in the early '80's! The problem is where the schools encourage people to "strive for success" and educate themselves to a level where there are fewer jobs available, so the competition to get those jobs is even tougher. A classic example is the fact that becoming a plumber isn't everyones dream job, yet the financial reality is that plumbers are better paid than a lot of "executive" positions.


That's because the education system teaches that the trades are for thick people. I've got a degree in Physics, and bloody interesting it was to do too, but if I had my time again I'd be a sparky...

The problem with NCEA is the PC "standards based" bollocks, what prospective employers want to know is where a candidate stands in their peer group, which is what the old system told you.

[elle-f]

I think in the past that 'trades' were deemed for those who were not going to get past any kind of University paper however, these days, and it has been like this since I have been teaching *close to 20 years...cough cough*.......that trades are an excellent future - moreso these days. It's rare to find a builder, plumber or electrician out of work....not so rare finding accountants and lawyers finding it hard to get a job.

Jantar :love: ya gorgeous thang!

[MattRSK]

I think in the past that 'trades' were deemed for those who were not going to get past any kind of University paper however, these days, and it has been like this since I have been teaching *close to 20 years...cough cough*.......that trades are an excellent future - moreso these days. It's rare to find a builder, plumber or electrician out of work....not so rare finding accountants and lawyers finding it hard to get a job.

Jantar :love: ya gorgeous thang!

Yay go the trades :D

[pixc]

What was wrong with a percentage?. It was easy. You have your perentage, then compare it to the average percentage for the same test. My kids have have always done the Australisian Maths/english tests and this is how they mark them..very quick, simple and factual.

[Storm]

Yay go the trades :D

Hear hear ! Up with sparkies :first:

[BUNGY]

Done 3 years of now and have a mixed opinion.
On one hand I liked it because it made school alot easier, you dont really need to focus on subjects you dont like and can still pass and subjects you do like normally make you work harder because you want to do well. Also internals take alot of the pressure out of end of year exams because you walk in there only needing to pass half ect.

Although I think it favours people who do the less intellectual subjects as alot of them are only made up of internals which can be resat over and over until they manage to pass whereas the other subjects give one chance only to get it right. Aslo it is a bit gutting to be one mark off and given the same mark as someone who barely scraped in. And now im off to do my degree I have to learn an entirely new system.

[HRT]

I think in the past that 'trades' were deemed for those who were not going to get past any kind of University paper however, these days, and it has been like this since I have been teaching *close to 20 years...cough cough*.......that trades are an excellent future - moreso these days.

I ended up doing 3 years at uni and getting a degree, then deciding to go into trades. Expensive bit of paper to buy in the end, but more interesting/fun/less stressful being a mechanic at the end of the day... I think.

Luckily I didn't have to go through NCEA. Seems like a terrible idea and just something to comform to all the other PC bullshit that goes on in this country. I could be wrong however as I haven't really taken a lot of interest in the entire system.

And as for the lack of spelling thing, the youth of today (and to be fair, its not just the youth) have some shocking spelling skills. Cellphone are bringing on the death of the english language by the looks of things

[Blackbird]

Cellphone are bringing on the death of the english language by the looks of things

The English Language is constantly evolving, just like any other language and it has been doing so since its inception. I guess that just like other aspects of life, it's evolving at a far greater rate than ever before due to almost instant global communication so we tend to notice it more. Doesn't mean we have to like it though. I think the World's great literature would rather lose something if written in txt language. :sick:

[ManDownUnder]

I wouldn't mind NCEA if I could only see how it relates to what comes after it.

Hit Uni or trade exams and you either meet the standard or your don't... simple pass or fail. Yes/No Good/Bad.

The rest of life is like that. You go into business - you either go under, or you don't. The world is a wonderfully binary place if you break it right down. You don't mostly die - you're either gone, or you're not.

So... trying to pull my own head from the sand... how does NCEA rank against the rest of life?