NZ houses among least affordable

[Swoop]

By Anne Gibson
NZ homes at their least affordable in 18 years

New Zealanders are paying some of the world's highest house prices compared to our incomes and Auckland ranks alongside London as one of the world's most expensive housing markets.

The third Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey released today showed it takes Aucklanders 6.9 years of full annual earnings of $57,500 to afford the $395,000 median house price.

Auckland ranked 21st out of 159 cities surveyed, with the least affordable city being Los Angeles.

Christchurch ranked 31st out of 159, with its residents taking six years of $48,400 annual earnings to afford the $291,000 median.

Wellington fared better in place 47 with its residents taking 5.4 years (earning $61,400 annually) to afford the $331,000 median.

A survey author blamed tight land supply for New Zealand's housing squeeze, saying excessive land use regulation had strangled subdivision expansion and artificially pushed up prices.

In the past year, New Zealand house prices rose about 10 per cent, significantly more than the rise in people's incomes.

Most analysts expect Reserve Bank Governor Alan Bollard to hold the official cash rate at 7.25 per cent on Thursday - and give homeowners a breather from higher mortgage rates - after lower oil prices contributed to better than expected inflation figures.

Housing Minister Chris Carter told the Affordable Housing Forum in Wellington late last year that the Government had identified three new ways of solving the crisis - new uses of planning rules, special sector partnerships and Government-led development projects on surplus Crown land.

"People of my generation are deeply disturbed by the enormous difficulties our children face in getting into the housing market, and housing affordability is an issue preoccupying hundreds of thousands of young households around the country.

"The problem with supply is not that we haven't been releasing land for development as those who want to gut the Resource Management Act are fond of claiming," he told the conference.

Hugh Pavletich, Christchurch-based co-author of the survey with Wendell Cox in the United States, criticised councils for ring-fencing cities which he said was strangling the supply of land crucial for development.

"Houses should not cost any more than three years' annual incomes," he said, calling for more rural land to be freed up.

"Less than 1.4 per cent of our land is urbanised, so there's no shortage of land for housing."

The survey found Australians had the world's most pervasive housing affordability crisis, taking 6.6 years of full earnings to afford a house. New Zealand come in close behind, taking a median six years, followed by Ireland and Britain.

Canadians have the world's most affordable houses, taking only 3.2 years of full earnings to afford a median-priced place. Americans score close behind, taking just 3.7 years of earnings to buy a house.

The survey found many people living in North America were much better off than New Zealanders. Their housing markets are the world's more affordable.

Darren Gibbs, chief economist of Deutsche Bank in Auckland, said low incomes were one of the reasons for NZ's poor ranking in the survey.

"We have high house prices compared to low incomes and our incomes are low because we're not a productive country."


How many years to buy a home?

Number of years' income to buy house:
* Australia 6.6 years.
* New Zealand 6 years.
* Ireland 5.7 years.
* Britain 5.5 years.
* United States 3.7 years.
* Canada 3.2 years.
Source: Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey.

[Swoop]

I was discussing this with a mate the other day.
For the younger ones, getting into a house must be a damn scary proposition with the piss-poor wages the average person earns.

It is also interesting with the Aussies!

[zadok]

Same thing has happened in Perth. We have overtaken Sydney!:wacko:

[Squeak the Rat]

For the younger ones, getting into a house must be a damn scary proposition with the piss-poor wages the average person earns.
It's even scarier for the older ones who missed buying before the boom.

[Finn]

And what's worse it that they are probably amongst the worse built houses in developed (if you could call NZ that) world.

[crazybigal]

I saw this happen in Queenstown, over the 9 years i was there house prices more than doubled. I blame foreign investment, people come from overseas with a strong $ and pay the asking price and more for places and just drive up the price for the rest of us.
it will bite them in the bum when there is no service industry because the workers cant afford to live there!

[Indiana_Jones]

This is pretty scary considering I wanna buy a house and start a family in a few years time :S

-Indy

[Squeak the Rat]

This is pretty scary: I wanna .........start a family in a few years time

That is pretty scary alright!

[crazybigal]

move to Australia!

This is pretty scary considering I wanna buy a house and start a family in a few years time :S

-Indy

[Dai]

That is pretty scary alright!

I agree with that sentiment also:gob:

[Karma]

The third Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey released today showed it takes Aucklanders 6.9 years of full annual earnings of $57,500 to afford the $395,000 median house price.



If you're earning 57k, why would you live in an area where houses are only 395k?

I think as usual statistics can say whatever you want them to, consider also the fact that 395k is roughly 7 times that 57k figure, what bank will lend you 7 times income for a mortgage?

[davereid]

There was another article in the paper the other day, where a farmer commented that land prices were now so high, that even a very efficient farmer would be unable to service the loan he needed to buy the land.

Eventually the number of people speculating on ever growing land values will decrease. Land values will stabilise or more dangerously fall rapidly, leaving borrowers and banks with loans on houses that are only worth half the value of the land.

The government faces the challenge of stopping the rapid growth in land values without causing the whole house of cards to fall down.

The answer is tricky for a socialist government. A capitalist government would simplify the resource management act, over a period of 5-10 years, giving the market time to adjust. It would also impose capital gains tax on non-residential property (ie property you own but dont live in.)

Labour can't do this - a) as the resource management act is their baby, so they wont abort it, and b) as dearly as they would like to impose a capital gains tax, it would reduce the number of investors in rental housing, forcing up rents.

Currently rents are up, but the have not gone up as steeply as house prices have, so their hands are tied.

Whatever happens, there is a lot of pain to come for someone !

Glad I am not in heavy mortgage debt !

[madandy]

I doubt the average Kiwi's love of Credit Cards and hire Purchase helps them geting into their own homes...I'm not a highly paid person and neither is my fiance and we had no trouble. Fortunately we got in nealy 4 years ago:innocent:
My apprentice and new bride followed some sound advice last year and bought thier first home in one of Tauranga's more expensive areas...he's paid $13hr and his young wife aint exactly creaming a huge salary either.
Thier advice included debt avoidance 18months prior to purchasing a house and now, as well as a nice home he has a new bike, due to selling his cage and they can still afford life's little luxuries.

Young people are spending big time on [financed]hotted up cars, mobile phones, designer clothing etc. and getting boozed at over priced bars at 18yrs of age...that's really why they're finding it hard to save for a deposit on their first homes.

[Indiana_Jones]

That is pretty scary alright!

What are you trying to say? lol

-Indy

[crazybigal]

Eventually the number of people speculating on ever growing land values will decrease. Land values will stabilise or more dangerously fall rapidly, leaving borrowers and banks with loans on houses that are only worth half the value of the land.

I am waithing with the cash in my hot little hand for this day!!! bring it on

[MisterD]

A survey author blamed tight land supply for New Zealand's housing squeeze, saying excessive land use regulation had strangled subdivision expansion and artificially pushed up prices.


I blame Kiwis' obsession with property investment for artifically increasing the demand half of the equation, what's going to happen when all the baby-boomers try to realise that investment at the same time?

Don't say I didn't warn you. Diversify people.

[Ixion]

,,,
The government faces the challenge of stopping the rapid growth in land values without causing the whole house of cards to fall down.

The answer is tricky for a socialist government. A capitalist government would simplify the resource management act, over a period of 5-10 years, giving the market time to adjust. It would also impose capital gains tax on non-residential property (ie property you own but dont live in.)

Labour can't do this - a) as the resource management act is their baby, so they wont abort it, and b) as dearly as they would like to impose a capital gains tax, it would reduce the number of investors in rental housing, forcing up rents.

,,

Years ago, when we HAD a Socialist government , this problem was well sorted. We did indeed have a capital gains tax, and we had something called the State Advances Corporation, that financed people into their first home.At nominal interest rates. We also had inflation proofed savings bonds, so that the value of your deposit wasn't eroded while you were saving it, tax deductions for interest on home loan accounts ,and a lot of other good ideas, that in total meant that NZ had the highest home ownership ratio in the world. And no homeless people, and noone living in garages.

Then a right wing capitalist ideologue called Roger Douglas destroyed the whole apparatus in the name of "the market" , and the only people who benefited were the speculators and banks.

My answer is simple and effective. Nationalise the banks, impose a strict capital gains tax and death duties, and return State housing to its original purpose. All can be done within a few weeks, all it needs is political will (or a brick wall and a few bullets)

EDIT: And as Mr Finn observes, back then we had Building Codes , and council inspectors who were proper tradesmen and knew what they were doing. So the houses were good solid ones that have invariably lasted half a century alread, not the present leaky, jerry built ramshackle dog kennels we have today. Of course we didn't have property speculators making millions of dollars erecting the dog kennels, either.

[McJim]

Yep - Auckland housing market stung me for a while.

Raising 2 kids and keeping a wife and a home with only one income - no holidays, no luxuries & very little food (all funds available ploughed into mortgage and bills)...quickly wished I was back in the UK for a decent quality of life.

It's not nice coming to a country where it's expected and enforced that you will have no disposable income.

[SPman]

I favour the brick wall and bullets, scenario....

especially for the fuckwits who destroyed the building industry training schemes and turned the whole building industry over to "big business", back in the early 90's !!!

PS Ixion - a lot of the inspectors are proper tradesmen and a lot (well - about 2/3rds) do know what they are doing.
But, like a lot of officials, they are constrained by the regulations in place.

PPS - Its great fun telling a builder to pull down his walls and start again.

[davereid]

The main factor is the price of land.

Of course building costs go up to match inflation and a real or percieved shortage of tradesmen. And as we add compliance costs - extra buiilding requirements, extra insulation etc etc we make house costs go up too.

But you can still buy the materials for a standard gib and plaster home for abut $1000 per square metre.

Its the crazy cost of land that causes the pain - sections in outer suburbs reaching $200K.

Somewhere in government we seem to have forgotten that people live here too, not just native birds and the spirits of the deceased.

The resource management act could be tweaked, to recognise this, and make subdivision an automatically approved process.

In lots of the USA this is how its done, and median house prices in those areas seldom pass 3x median wage. And they get pretty good houses for the $$ spent too.

[Finn]

PPS - Its great fun telling a builder to pull down his walls and start again.

Wish they did it more often. Unfortunately the Council overlooked my place so it'll end up costing the rate payers. Thank you.

[mstriumph]

Yep - Auckland housing market stung me for a while.

Raising 2 kids and keeping a wife and a home with only one income - no holidays, no luxuries & very little food (all funds available ploughed into mortgage and bills)...quickly wished I was back in the UK for a decent quality of life.

It's not nice coming to a country where it's expected and enforced that you will have no disposable income.


..... have you thought about selling one of the children ? :dodge:

[Brian d marge]

Years ago, when we HAD a Socialist government , this problem was well sorted.

Then a right wing capitalist ideologue called Roger Douglas destroyed the whole apparatus in the name of "the market" , and the only people who benefited were the speculators and banks.

My answer is simple and effective. Nationalise the banks, impose a strict capital gains tax and death duties, and return State housing to its original purpose. All can be done within a few weeks, all it needs is political will (or a brick wall and a few bullets)
.

Acc as well it was said to me that we could return to a no fault acc, with a simple 1 cent increase in tax .

but why nationalise banks ..Kiwibank is working well??? National bank westpac or what ever are screwing everyone for profit .agreed

But there are sometimes when the business model does work, unfortuantly when greedy man steps in the business model goes out the window.

I would like to buy a home, with a garage , but we are renting near Tokyo and my wife works part time 3 days a week. I work part time in the evenings and am starting my own business ( read a cheap excuse to spend money on bikes) and we have a 3 year old son,

Now we are at/below the average for income BUT we can afford the playthings in life ,,and life isnt stressful, its 10.30 and I am online to kiwi bike with the first cup of coffee for the day , then will clean workshop till 4

So while we WOULD like to move Unless the money is there ( i reckon about 600 a week ???~ ) then we are better off in a place that is definatly NOT called godzone . ( though we do have a cherry tree in the carpark across the road )

Nope that report was right , the unfortuant thing is NZ a producing country, not because you lot are a bunch of slackers , who are work shy bone idle and lazy !
No I think its just access to markets. There isnt any , ( WETA looks good , but then its strangled by telescum ..any others ??) and with other countrys getting good at farming .... I to would be diversifying

I mean there is a company who makes disposable plate from potatoes, here in japan we use and burn polystyrene one like they are going out of fashion. If the plates were atractivly priced ( quantity ) japan would take more than that company would produce ! ....

hey ho second cup off coffee ,,,

Stephen

[Ixion]

,,
but why nationalise banks ..Kiwibank is working well??? National bank westpac or what ever are screwing everyone for profit .agreed

,,

Kiwibank IS nationalised! Which is why it offers much better deals than the other rip off oligopolists. And the market ideologues said it couldn't be done. (Of course it is really just the old POSB reinvented, so it was obvious it COULD be done)

[Brian d marge]

Kiwibank IS nationalised! Which is why it offers much better deals than the other rip off oligopolists. And the market ideologues said it couldn't be done. (Of course it is really just the old POSB reinvented, so it was obvious it COULD be done)

ahhh that then the reason
I thought it was just Kiwi ownd

Stephen

[iwilde]

This is pretty scary considering I wanna buy a house and start a family in a few years time :S

-Indy


I feel sorry for genuine family minded people like yourself. To pay a 350-400thou morgage is about 500-600/week before insurance, rates, power, phone then the general everyday expences. So you and your partner buy a home, but now you need a dual income which means putting off having kids indef'. The only way you can do it is by looking for a property that can either be converted to a home/flat or building a minor dwelling and renting out the house that will return the most. I've herd of people going halves with friends only to have a falling out with later on and selling at a bargin price (one of my rentals was such a property and I had $120000 equity in it straight away!). Use your head and look ahead when buying a home as it still can be done, don't be afraid to add an exta $150000 to build an extra minor home as the rent will excede the $225/week in interest you'll be paying.
Good luck!

[The Stranger]

I blame Kiwis' obsession with property investment for artifically increasing the demand half of the equation, what's going to happen when all the baby-boomers try to realise that investment at the same time?

Don't say I didn't warn you. Diversify people.

Hmm, surely the investors are only going to purchase if there is a demand to fill those houses.

If not, why would they buy? Very few (I doubt any) buy up houses and just sit on them vacant. So for each house there is an occupier (or thereabouts) so when they go to sell, surely they will simply sell to one of the occupiers. How would this create a glut and thus falling prices?

[Motu]

My daughter and her partner shifted into their new house less than 6 months ago....they have two adjoining sections and built on one,their mortgage is about $110,000 and managable on a single income,the new house was valued at $165,000 when it was built,the new garage was finished on thursday and now there is enough equity to start building on the other section...if they want to.Huntly is an hour from Auckland and half and hour from Hamilton....they consider they made a damn good choice to come down here,no way would they have their own home in Auckland.

[iwilde]

Hmm, surely the investors are only going to purchase if there is a demand to fill those houses.

If not, why would they buy? Very few (I doubt any) buy up houses and just sit on them vacant. So for each house there is an occupier (or thereabouts) so when they go to sell, surely they will simply sell to one of the occupiers. How would this create a glut and thus falling prices?

It can, and maybe will. When investors are greedy and buy sayu 10 house at near peak prices, everything is a very tight margin and it only takes one factor to upset the balance and cause an investor to sell quickly at a bargin price. Low influx of immigrants, interest rates have risen when their interest only morgages break, a couple of tenants kicking in the walls and taking off without paying the rent...etc...Can happen and if it does the major cause of it will be greed.

[iwilde]

My daughter and her partner shifted into their new house less than 6 months ago....they have two adjoining sections and built on one,their mortgage is about $110,000 and managable on a single income,the new house was valued at $165,000 when it was built,the new garage was finished on thursday and now there is enough equity to start building on the other section...if they want to.Huntly is an hour from Auckland and half and hour from Hamilton....they consider they made a damn good choice to come down here,no way would they have their own home in Auckland.

It can be done in Auckland, just have to be a bit more ballsy and buy very smart.

[The Stranger]

A survey author blamed tight land supply for New Zealand's housing squeeze, saying excessive land use regulation had strangled subdivision expansion and artificially pushed up prices.



My oldest brother was around the other day, and being the good capitalist that he is has decided to chop his section in half and sell one half.

Seeing the prices of sections lately I am thinking he will make a fair bit of money so ask him about the other side of the equasion. Costs. He advised it would cost about $55,000 to make the cut. What??? He recons the council gets about $35,000 $38,000 to rubber stamp the deal.

And you wonder why sections are so expensive.

[davereid]

Its actually speculators doing it, not investors.

In fact the traditional equation of making sure the rental income covers the cost of the loan plus outgoings has been long forgotten.

People are now investing in property because of the (untaxed) capital gains.

Trouble is, it's artificial growth - the contributing factors being a barrier to new land being cut up (aka resource Management Act), wealthy population increase (often due to immigration, but now slowing), the lack of a tax on capital gain, and the number of new speculative investors entering the market.

Its self destructive - lets say for example that growth starts to slow. Then the returns from capital gain slow. So its less attractive to invest in. So there are less speculators. hmm, the bubble bursts.

Realistically, it can't be sustained. The trick is to guess exactly when it will stop. I guessed 2 years ago and got out of property and got it very very wrong.

but, you pay your money and take your chances.

[iwilde]

Its actually speculators doing it, not investors.

In fact the traditional equation of making sure the rental income covers the cost of the loan plus outgoings has been long forgotten.

People are now investing in property because of the (untaxed) capital gains.

Trouble is, it's artificial growth - the contributing factors being a barrier to new land being cut up (aka resource Management Act), wealthy population increase (often due to immigration, but now slowing), the lack of a tax on capital gain, and the number of new speculative investors entering the market.

Its self destructive - lets say for example that growth starts to slow. Then the returns from capital gain slow. So its less attractive to invest in. So there are less speculators. hmm, the bubble bursts.

Realistically, it can't be sustained. The trick is to guess exactly when it will stop. I guessed 2 years ago and got out of property and got it very very wrong.

but, you pay your money and take your chances.

I thought the same thing, but diversified by adding in a spec home here and their to create some cash flow to get my rental balance in a better position in case of the bubble bursting (when?). I'm glad that I kept them now as their capital gains have made up for any stress I've had!

[The Stranger]

It can, and maybe will. When investors are greedy and buy sayu 10 house at near peak prices, everything is a very tight margin and it only takes one factor to upset the balance and cause an investor to sell quickly at a bargin price. Low influx of immigrants, interest rates have risen when their interest only morgages break, a couple of tenants kicking in the walls and taking off without paying the rent...etc...Can happen and if it does the major cause of it will be greed.

Sure it has happened in the past, however, that doesn't really relate to the scenario I presented, or it would appear MisterD was aluding to.

What you describe is something quite different and could happen at any time, not just when the baby boomers want to liquidate.

As well as that many factors have changed. The banks, having been burnt before facing the situation where the very mortgagee sales they were using to recover their debt were forcing house prices down and creating more mortgee sales and significant losses for those banks have tightened there criteria in this respect. Some simply will not do it, or may require them to put in a lot more of their own money than in the past when a person has too many rentals.

Plus people are a lot more aware of this issue now (having experienced it in the not too distant past) and are less likely to put themselves in that situation.

[The Stranger]

By Anne Gibson
The third Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey released today showed it takes Aucklanders 6.9 years of full annual earnings of $57,500 to afford the $395,000 median house price.

Wellington fared better in place 47 with its residents taking 5.4 years (earning $61,400 annually) to afford the $331,000 median.


Ok any guesses as to why the smaller of these cities has the larger incomes, against the trend?

I wonder if some people are being grossly over paid and skewing the result?

[jrandom]

Ok ay guesses as to why the smaller of these cities has the larger incomes, against the trend?

I wonder if some people are being grossly over paid and skewing the result?

Nup.

It's because Wellington, in comparison to Auckland, has very little industry employing large numbers of low-wage workers. Therefore the average goes up.

[Swoop]

He recons the council gets about $35,000 $38,000 to rubber stamp the deal.

And you wonder why sections are so expensive.

Possibly to pay for the mistakes of others... See post #21...

[iwilde]

Sure it has happened in the past, however, that doesn't really relate to the scenario I presented, or it would appear MisterD was aluding to.

What you describe is something quite different and could happen at any time, not just when the baby boomers want to liquidate.

As well as that many factors have changed. The banks, having been burnt before facing the situation where the very mortgagee sales they were using to recover their debt were forcing house prices down and creating more mortgee sales and significant losses for those banks have tightened there criteria in this respect. Some simply will not do it, or may require them to put in a lot more of their own money than in the past when a person has too many rentals.

Plus people are a lot more aware of this issue now (having experienced it in the not too distant past) and are less likely to put themselves in that situation.

I can't see every baby boomer selling all their assets at once. I can see a few of them selling one or two to free up some cash for enjoyment or putting other rentals to a positive cash flow. With housing the way it is I can see a lot of baby boomers putting rentals in trusts for their children or grandchildren as a way to future proof inheritance. I would, or should I say in 30yrs I will. I also can't see that the banks will cause a drop with morgagee sales as they are lending 100% and have far to much invested in the property market that way to create a fall, they're banking on captial gain for their slice of the pie.

[Brian d marge]

My daughter and her partner shifted into their new house less than 6 months ago....they have two adjoining sections and built on one,their mortgage is about $110,000 and managable on a single income,the new house was valued at $165,000 when it was built,the new garage was finished on thursday and now there is enough equity to start building on the other section...if they want to.Huntly is an hour from Auckland and half and hour from Hamilton....they consider they made a damn good choice to come down here,no way would they have their own home in Auckland.

We had a look, but the thing was work, I know an hour isnt a bad commute ,,,but thats a few KM in NZ, there are a few places still cheap ,,the problem is work. not a lot of it in them places

Stephen

[scracha]

I wonder if some people are being grossly over paid and skewing the result?

If I remember maffs correctly then median is the middle value.

e.g.
NAME Salary
Dickie Branson 10,000,000
Lawyer Skum 200,000
Average Joe 55,000
Average Joe 53,000
Average Joe 35,000
Low Earner 13,000

Average (or mean) = 1,726,000
Median = 54,000

[The_Dover]

It's our fuckin parents generation that are fucking it up for young people with their greed and retarded "let every fuckin rich gook under the sun into NZ so we can cream their cash off them" policy.

Investment properties, over inflated market due to (parasitic education hunting) immigrants, lack of capital gains tax. It's totally fucked.

Even on two incomes we're struggling to buy a shit hole in a p-lab/ tinnie house infested coon ridden ghetto. Fuck paying more in a mortgage to live next door to a bunch of fucking porch monkeys that'll rob us as soon as we go to work than we do in rent for a fucking choice house.

We don't want or need a palace and why the fuck should I have to pay more for travel (gas/maintenance/tyres etc) than I would for accomodation??

I hope all the arseholes that have shaped this housing market die a horrible painful death and that the short sighted fucked up politicians suffer double.

I'll get where I want to go, but I'll be a bitter cynical cunt in the process.

And don't give me any of that young people, flash car, flash bike, HP bullshit you self righteous old wankers. Given my time again I'd have told the old man to stick his uni education up his arse and been a fuckin tradesman. (I would at least be able to justify my penchant for the tradesmans entrance then)

Still, we'll all be laughing when we buy all you old cunts houses and then watch the niggers terrorising you in your retirement villages, you can fuckin defend yourselfs.

[Skyryder]

Years ago, when we HAD a Socialist government , this problem was well sorted. We did indeed have a capital gains tax, and we had something called the State Advances Corporation, that financed people into their first home.At nominal interest rates. We also had inflation proofed savings bonds, so that the value of your deposit wasn't eroded while you were saving it, tax deductions for interest on home loan accounts ,and a lot of other good ideas, that in total meant that NZ had the highest home ownership ratio in the world. And no homeless people, and noone living in garages.

Then a right wing capitalist ideologue called Roger Douglas destroyed the whole apparatus in the name of "the market" , and the only people who benefited were the speculators and banks.

My answer is simple and effective. Nationalise the banks, impose a strict capital gains tax and death duties, and return State housing to its original purpose. All can be done within a few weeks, all it needs is political will (or a brick wall and a few bullets)

EDIT: And as Mr Finn observes, back then we had Building Codes , and council inspectors who were proper tradesmen and knew what they were doing. So the houses were good solid ones that have invariably lasted half a century alread, not the present leaky, jerry built ramshackle dog kennels we have today. Of course we didn't have property speculators making millions of dollars erecting the dog kennels, either.

What that man said. We are in the process of helping our daughter get her first home. She lives in Auckland. Without our help they would be paying land lords for the rest of their lives.


Skyryder

[Guitana]

[QUOTE=The_Dover;

I hope all the arseholes that have shaped this housing market die a horrible painful death and that the short sighted fucked up politicians suffer double.

I'll get where I want to go, but I'll be a bitter cynical cunt in the process.

And don't give me any of that young people, flash car, flash bike, HP bullshit you self righteous old wankers. Given my time again I'd have told the old man to stick his uni education up his arse and been a fuckin tradesman. (I would at least be able to justify my penchant for the tradesmans entrance then)

Still, we'll all be laughing when we buy all you old cunts houses and then watch the niggers terrorising you in your retirement villages, you can fuckin defend yourselfs.[/QUOTE]

Yeah and those parasitic realestate fuckers grind my nuts when I sold my house down south privately the fuckers kept ringing me when they saw the add in the local rag.I told them to fuck off but they kept saying it would be too hard to sell privately well fuck me if it didnt sell that weekend and for twice what we paid for it> These pricks are lower than low and are partly responsible for driving the market up!! Scum sucking bottom feeders when you work out the fees they charge to sell the house it equates to over $800 an hour! I hope they all get the clap and their dicks fall off!! Ill stay renting till the market collapses under its own weight and then clean up!!!!!

[Timber020]

One of my older clients was selling her house, she and her late husband had built the house, raised her kids and grandkids in the place and wanted to sell it to "a nice young family."

I think she had 20 people inquire. out of that only 2 wanted to live in the place themselves. The rest were people trying to get in on the capital gain game. In the first round of tenders the first two were knocked out. Took 5 rounds of the so called tender process to get a winner.

We need a capital gains tax, as for making land more easily available, you should see how easily the big developers are able to bribe there way into property that nobody else could legally aquire.

[Lou Girardin]

Rising house prices, I just love it.
We've had around 200% return on our investment in 5 years.
Tax free!
I wonder if Alan Bollard can show me a NZ company share that has done that.

[NighthawkNZ]

I was discussing this with a mate the other day.
For the younger ones, getting into a house must be a damn scary proposition with the piss-poor wages the average person earns.


Im not on a high wage and never is my partner, I very much doubt we can afford a house at present... even with the 100% loan schemes etc... btw Im not that young either... (not that old but not that young)

I'll tell yah how it goes by the end of the year...

[The Stranger]

EDIT: And as Mr Finn observes, back then we had Building Codes , and council inspectors who were proper tradesmen and knew what they were doing. So the houses were good solid ones that have invariably lasted half a century alread, not the present leaky, jerry built ramshackle dog kennels we have today. Of course we didn't have property speculators making millions of dollars erecting the dog kennels, either.

Umm, we always have had building codes. Did back then, did in the leaky building era and still do now.

I really don't consider it right to lump a lot of blame on the inspectors. They are faced with some difficult issues. They work to the same building codes i.e flawed. Work can be changed after the inspector has signed off and realistically, should it be the responsibility of the inspector to get it right?

That would run counter to virtually every other check system in the building industry. Dover was an HVAC engineer, ask him if his company would accept liability for checking shop drawings, or if the installer screwed up, despite the fact that they will inspect the job as it progresses. Ditto a clerk of works and an architect - hell architects wont even accept responsibility for their own fuck ups, let alone anyone elses.

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

What I want to know is this. How the hell has James Hardie got away virtually completely unscathed in the whole leaky building debacle?

[McJim]

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?


My ancesters have been building hooses with Central heating and insulation since 6000 years ago (see Scara Brae - Orkney) and yet in 2007 you STILL cannae get hooses o' that quality in New Zealand.

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

[The Stranger]

By Anne Gibson
NZ homes at their least affordable in 18 years

New Zealanders are paying some of the world's highest house prices compared to our incomes and Auckland ranks alongside London as one of the world's most expensive housing markets.

.

I understand that the councils are planning to implement a system whereby trades people must be registered for a particular job or trade in order to perform that task. For example, for a person to be able to fix a roof, they must be certified to fix a roof.

The theory is to stop cowboys riding into town shooting the roof down and riding off into the sunset, as roofers are want to do. Previosly all you needed to fix a roof was a ute and a good line on silicone, after all there is no fuck up which can't be fixed with silicone, just ask any roofer. Anything else required was simply initially borrowed from the builder then stolen on completion of the job.

So I gather that all these people will need to be insured i.e. you wont be certified by the council if you don't have insurance. That way the councils can cover their arses should we see a repeat of leaky building syndrome. So this is one big arse covering exercise.
Great you say, about time.
Well yes, but who is paying? Why you are of course.
That's ok, who minds paying a little extra for the protection of a good job? No - one right?
Well, ok, but how much. Some are putting estimates between 10%-15% extra. So that peace of mind may cost you between $20,000 and, well heaps.

I find this very interesting for several reasons.
Firstly, why now, we survived 200 yrs without it and had no problems (so to speak)? Perhaps we should simply adopt standards and practices used for the previous few hundred years.
Secondly, any competent home handyman has now (well soon) been excluded from doing his own alterations, despite doing so with no real problem in the past.
Thirdly, What will be the effect on the second hand market if we see 10%-15% increase in new house prices?

[Finn]

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

Wear that bloody kilt again near me and I'll give yah a couple of ache'ers! :sick:

[McJim]

Wear that bloody kilt again near me and I'll give yah a couple of ache'ers! :sick:

Hmmm yeah - aching knee caps - I can see it now.

Easy answer Finn, if I'm wearing my kilt just don't look up! :rofl:

[TLDV8]

For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

Soldered roof joints/flashings..Over hung roof lines and window flashings which is why 40 year old group houses are still as sound as the day they were built.
What changed ?.Easy, imported BS plans and building material ideas all in the name of profit.
What followed was lack of skills again based on profit.Why make a longterm weatherproof joint when you can use silicone instead.
Like they do not have leaky homes in the likes of Canada etc for the same reason's,then the BS was imported here.

How do i know what has been happening,easy again,i helped build a house.

The basic structure was as sound as can be with the difference pine is used now verses rimu or similar yesteryear and glued and pressed chip is used for flooring (both rubbish),then the roof ($12000 in 1996)was sealed with silicone,then the windows (also $12000) were sealed with silicone......not to mention the longrun roofing made of tinfoil !!!

Then they started building on concrete bases so the next dilema is cracked floors with no real way to fix them longterm.
As far as i am concerned Kiwidom was sold down the river.
That being, what had worked here for generations was slowly eroded in the name of profit.

A modest but solid group house (3 bedroom/wooden/tin roof) in South Auckland would have sold for around $15000 in 1973,rising to around $43000 in the mid 1980's,now that house would be worth around $300000.
It will still be standing when these modern overpriced POS have long crumpled.
How !@#$ed is it when something old including so called technology can outlast something 40 years newer including technology again........ Profit at any Cost with no Accountibility which includes those who lowered the building codes and material specs.

[MyGSXF]

A headline in the Nelson paper a couple of days ago, said that the median house price in Richmond had hit $400,000. :gob: :gob: :gob:

[Finn]

A headline in the Nelson paper a couple of days ago, said that the median house price in Richmond had hit $400,000. :gob: :gob: :gob:

That's the whole street price isn't it?

[Ixion]

Umm, we always have had building codes. Did back then, did in the leaky building era and still do now.

I really don't consider it right to lump a lot of blame on the inspectors. They are faced with some difficult issues. They work to the same building codes i.e flawed. Work can be changed after the inspector has signed off and realistically, should it be the responsibility of the inspector to get it right?

That would run counter to virtually every other check system in the building industry. Dover was an HVAC engineer, ask him if his company would accept liability for checking shop drawings, or if the installer screwed up, despite the fact that they will inspect the job as it progresses. Ditto a clerk of works and an architect - hell architects wont even accept responsibility for their own fuck ups, let alone anyone elses.

Criticism is often levelled at the builder. That said, who is the builder? For the past couple of hundred years a lot of non tradesmen/home handymen have built their own homes with little or no real problems. So is it necessarily a highly skilled profession? No it isn't. So why didn't we have leaky homes then?

What I want to know is this. How the hell has James Hardie got away virtually completely unscathed in the whole leaky building debacle?

I beg to differ.

Carpentry is certainly a skilled trade. My fingers still remember the painful lessons of its acquistion.

The reason that Kiwi handymen have built houses successfully is simply that, for several hundred years, those skills were some of the repetoire that a Kiwi bloke was expected to master in his teens, even if he did not intend to enter the trade. It was a poor apology for a bloke who couldnt build a simple house or extension, at need, no matter what his actual job was. Fathers taught the skills to their sons in the time honoured fashion.

And the nature of the building inspection has changed. In the past the inspectors task was to make sure that the builder was doing the job in a tradesman-like fashion. And both the inspector and the builder knew exactly what that was. Certainly there were many tricks to try to fool the building inspectors. And the inspectors, from a lifetime in the trade, knew them too, and didn't intend to be fooled.He didn't need a lot of paper and certifications. He KNEW how to build a decent building and he expected the builder to do the same.

Nowdays the inspection is a paper based process. Have the necessary bits of paper been filled in, have the "standards" been complied with. If they have then the inspector must sign it off, even if he knows that the work is not up to scratch - as many of them will know, since they are for the most part still ex-tradesmen.

I remember, long before we heard of leaky buildings, when the first McMansions were going up in Howick, my wife and I went out to look at some of them. I was horrified at some of the things I saw, and told her that no way would we ever buy such a house. She was sceptical, and went back with her father, a retired builder. He was even more scathing. And the quality then was not so bad as it later became. I predicted then that Auckland would have a colossal problem in the future - and then I didn't know about the imbecile decision to allow use of untreated pine in framing. That decision alone shows the utter corruption of the system, the government agreed to allow a material that had been universally recognised as unsuitable for half a century, simply because it would mean bigger profits for James Hardie.

I would strongly discourage anyone from buying ANY house (or apartment) at all built since about 1980 by the "building corporations" . They will all have to be pulled down sooner or later, and mostly sooner. The building inspectors knew about the problems, of course, as did the tradesmen. But most of the houses built nowdays are not built by jobbing builders they are built by corporations who are not interested in good workmanship.

[MyGSXF]

That's the whole street price isn't it?

Aaaahhhhhhhhhh....... NO!! :no: that's just for ONE ferkin house!!! :sick:

[The Stranger]

I beg to differ.

Carpentry is certainly a skilled trade. My fingers still remember the painful lessons of its acquistion.



No slur on carpenters was intended, I too am a carpenter by trade as is my father and as was his father - wonder what his father did. My son is a carpentry apprentice. I am amazed at how the whole apprenticeship thing has changed. Baring out your comment about paper based, all his work is out of NZS 3604, no actual carpentry skill teaching is involved, it is expected this will be acquired on site, where little actually exists due to the apprenticeship system previously in place.

My point however is that Joe average can in fact knock up a reasonably watertight dwelling. Many of these I walk into and cringe and the workmanship or lack thereof, however quality of finish is not mine to judge. If someone is happy with bent walls, poor mitres, ill fitting doors etc etc that is their prerogative.

[Finn]

Easy answer Finn, if I'm wearing my kilt just don't look up! :rofl:

Is that the milky way near uranus? Homo.

[Guitana]

My ancesters have been building hooses with Central heating and insulation since 6000 years ago (see Scara Brae - Orkney) and yet in 2007 you STILL cannae get hooses o' that quality in New Zealand.

Just give me a half acre and access to a quarry - I'll build ma ain hoose ta!

I'll have to agree with ya McJim!! My family came from Lennoxtoon ootside of Glasgee and the old families stone hoose still stands today almost three hundred years old lets see one of those Gin palaces in Auckland last that long!
I think not!!!
Most Kiwi homes are falling down around their owners ears after twenty years .

[McJim]

Is that the milky way near uranus? Homo.

Homo Sapien I am monkey boy, What of it?

I've rediscoverd Milky ways since I became a dad - tasty but you have to eat a shitload to satisfy your hunger.

I remember Lennoxtown - last stop before going over the Campsie Fells - some quaint and picturesque houses there although there's also a 1950's council estate there too!

I used to live in Culross, Fife - most of the houses there were built circa 1400.

[Guitana]

Bloody Marvellous!!!!

[elle-f]

we were bloody lucky we bought when we did - about 2 years ago because the houses that have recently sold around us - in the past year - are going for double........we are sitting on a little goldmine!

[Guitana]

Im not on a high wage and never is my partner, I very much we can afford a house at present... even with the 100% loan schemes etc... btw Im not that young either... (not that old but not that young)

I'll tell yah how it goes by the end of the year...

Yeah you and every other middle income earner that's trying to buy into the market! No wonder Kiwi's are fucking off to aussie!!!
I went to an open home in wellington the other day and my wife and I were the only kiwis there, all asian investors buying up the local homes for rentals I overheard one of them say to the realestate weasel that he was looking for three yes three homes and he was a cash buyer!!!Of course the maggot was all over him like a rash!!
Face it guys New Zealand is under new ownership the quarter acre dream is over we'll all have to move to oz with the rest of NZ!!!!!

[Guitana]

we were bloody lucky we bought when we did - about 2 years ago because the houses that have recently sold around us - in the past year - are going for double........we are sitting on a little goldmine!

Sell it and reap the profits then buy back in when the market falls over, how many kiwis do you know that can afford a $300,000- $400,000 dollar mortgage on the shit wages they earn? Probably none and if they could they would have to budget so hard their wallets would bleed every payday!! I know a couple who brought their dream home and had such a big mortgage they had no spare cash to buy any extras they argued all the time over money and within the year their marriage was over!!!
No way to live your life, if every body wakes up and stops paying the horrendous prices being asked for some of the flea pits on the market the prices would drop people are afraid they are gonna miss out and are panic buying fuelling the increase in prices.
Boycot the realestate market and let the prices drop!!
In Wellington $400k gets you a run down three bedroom shit hole that needs $100k spent on it to make it livable you could build one cheaper if you could find a builder but theyre all in fucken aussie enjoying the sun!!!

[The Stranger]

we were bloody lucky we bought when we did - about 2 years ago because the houses that have recently sold around us - in the past year - are going for double........we are sitting on a little goldmine!

Um, hate to burst your bubble, but any increase on your own personal dwelling is just an illusion. What happens when you sell it and go to buy another? That's right, you pay the same amount for the same property in the same area.

For example you pay 300k for a 3 bedroom house in Henderson, you sell it for 400k say 3 yrs later. You go to buy a 3 bedroom house in Henderson - what's it going to cost you? you guessed it 400k, what did you make? squat.

Now there are variations on this theme, but few first home buyers or buyers with a young family can avail themselves of those variations.

As for saying sell up and wait for the bust - what if it never happens? (see my post on increasing costs to build (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=907424&postcount=49)) you just lagged further behind.

[The Stranger]

Boycot the realestate market and let the prices drop!!


Where do you propose the boycotters live in the interim?
Surely not rent as that cause the investors to come in and push prices up wont it?

[Karma]

Well using the bike as the main form of transport it's tempting to move a way outta the city, west to kumeu, east to clevedon, or north past Orewa.

Get a lot more for the money, trouble is I'm just a city boy, so I'll have to pay the price.

[The_Dover]

Get a lot more for the money, trouble is I'm just a city boy, so I'll have to pay the price.

and there's no 24 hour maccas in the cuntry.

[Karma]

and there's no 24 hour maccas in the cuntry.


You wound me sir! I'm all about the kebabs at the moment :D

[Brian d marge]

begs the million dollar question ...where would one live in NZ , have a Job ,,,and still have a small diposable , for the fun things

Wife working part time maybe



Dont all rush now ... and there must at least be a goat track ( or goats ) to the door

Stephen

[The_Dover]

You wound me sir! I'm all about the kebabs at the moment :D

in that case give Kebabs to Go in Grafton (next to the Domain Deli) a whirl.

He's not shy with his meat, even for a dirty turk.

[Karma]

Oh, sounds like a plan... everyone else has their regular rides... how's about the Auckland Friday Night Kebab Ride?

[The_Dover]

Oh, sounds like a plan... everyone else has their regular rides... how's about the Auckland Friday Night Kebab Ride?

i'd love to but i can't afford to eat out these days.

i want to buy a house.

[Swoop]

I would strongly discourage anyone from buying ANY house (or apartment) at all built since about 1980.
Hmm. I have been saying any place built since the early 1990's when the legislation changed. 3" stud, interior walls and untreated pine...

My point however is that Joe average can in fact knock up a reasonably watertight dwelling. Many of these I walk into and cringe and the workmanship or lack thereof, however quality of finish is not mine to judge. If someone is happy with bent walls, poor mitres, ill fitting doors etc etc that is their prerogative.
A Henderson subdivision was "created" by asian (no slur intended) "tradespeople"... An open home was shown with very poor quality finishing, bowed walls, doors not fitting, etc, etc, etc.... The only comment was "Kiwis too fussy!!!"

Some poor bastard is going to be left holding the baby with this POS...

Where do you propose the boycotters live in the interim?
Surely not rent as that cause the investors to come in and push prices up wont it?
Live on a boat. Seriously. Much better, and then wait for the market to collapse.

[slowpoke]

Fukkin' hell, last time I heard this much whinging I'd accidently shut the dogs' tail in the car door!
I't's hardly worth starting on some of the comments: most new houses will have fallen down in 20 years, $400k gets you a rundown shithole, move to Oz quicksmart, yada yada.

I just did a quick search on www.realestate.co.nz for houses in the Wellington area, plugged in $300k max and came back with 17 pages of houses, 20 houses to a page. That sounds like a pretty fair selection for houses well UNDER the average price. For that money you can get a funky looking near new 4 x 2 on the Kapiti Coast. Yup, it's a commute, but it's a hell of a lot better than most other capital cities in the world, with no smog, open roads and a beach on your doorstep. In Western Australia that sort of property would be worth $1m.

Having only recently returned from Perth I bloody laughed when somebody suggested moving to Oz. Prices in Melbourne and Sydney have been flat or going backwards recently (anybody wanna buy a depreciating investment?) and in Perth the average house price has just topped $460k AUD, which is nearly $520k NZD....oh yeah, REALLY affordable for a Kiwi rocking up with empty pockets....NOT!

You can't have it both ways guys. You'd be winging (again) like my stumpy tailed dog if prices were going backwards and here you are squalking away 'cos they are going forwards. Bloody hell, I know which way I'd rather have it. Would you rather you or your kids bought a depreciating asset or an appreciating one?

Yes, there may be a correction of sorts in the future but realistically just one years growth at recent rates will more than make up for it and history shows that over time real estate always trends upwards. Despite the recent boom we haven't arrived at these prices overnight. As high as they are, in ten years time they'll seem unbelievably cheap.

Sure houses may be less affordable than previously but there are still plenty of houses available for less than the average price. We just don't want to pay for them. Now more than ever we are consumed with the desire for style and image. We've got to have the $150 jeans, the $500 camera phone/organiser, the $90 hair cut, the $250 pram etc etc. As a result our first house has GOT to have an ensuite, it HAS to have landscaping, it must be in a "good" area, must be 15 minutes from work etc etc.

I think there are still reasonable options available to first home buyers, it's just that they don't find the options very attractive. Looking back at the shitty rental accomodation I grew up in none of it was in the least bit attractive either, but if Mum and Dad had had the sense to buy one of those crappy rentals with their rent money they'd be a hell of a lot better off than they are now.

Very few people can buy their dream home first up so you've just got to do the best you can and try and step up as you go through life. As I was once told: you can only piss with the cock you've got. If you've got champagne dreams but a beer budget you've got two choices: go thirsty and keep dreamin' about champagne or get stuck into the beer. It's an easy choice as far as I'm concerned.

[crack]

The myth of the value of such????

I always thought that housing was the result of a boyant economy.

"NOT" a boyant economy based on housing??????

Am I missing something?

In the USA, or Switzerland, or England, or Canada, and maybe Aussie, you can borrow 200K $ Euros, CHF, and it will cost you around 670 $ Euros,CHF a month at 3.5 % fixed for 30 years?

Now am I missing something here.

The NZ govt continues to pay 6%+ on money, it attracts foriegn money to our shores on say 90 day rate's, where does that money go, back off shore.
These fucking lesbians and queer cunts in govt could fix this overnight just by lowering the cash rate.



Ollie Newland, where are you.

Oh and by the way, if you are in business, could you survive and trade insolvently???? and stay out of jail:

You maybe surprised but that is exactly what banks do.

Its called fractionalised reserve banking.

Thanks to Roger Fucking Douglas.

New Zealand is a fucking magic country, but it is inhabited by couldn't care less, apathetic, accepting and beleiving people.

We care more about our rugby, cricket, than we do about the society we want top live in.

Anarchy not far away, the rich will live in fear of the masses in the cities and suburbs, locked in there mansions, unable to leave their dwellings.

Go and murder someone get 7 years, and enjoy a stay in a $900 million over budget?????jail, come on look around you, it is starting to fall apart.

Society is melting down.

Ah! but we live in a democracy????

Fuck I enjoyed that.

:whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares: :whocares:

[Fat Tony]

Hmmmmm... an interesting thread.

[Fat Tony]

Hmmmmm... an interesting thread.

*EDIT: Not interesting enough to post the same comment twice though. Sorry 'bout that. Must have clicked the button twice or something

[slowpoke]

Fuck I enjoyed that.



Not half as much as i enjoyed your profile pic:gob:

[slowpoke]

In the USA, or Switzerland, or England, or Canada, and maybe Aussie, you can borrow 200K $ Euros, CHF, and it will cost you around 670 $ Euros,CHF a month at 3.5 % fixed for 30 years?



Nup, not such thing in Oz, typical interest rate of about 7.5% at the moment.

The real kicker is the bloody stamp duty, here's the rates for WA:

Purchase price up to $80,000
2.0%

$80,001 to $100,000
$1,600 + 3.0%

$100,001 to $250,000
$2,200 + 4.0%

$250,001 to $500,000
$8,200 + 5.0%

$500,001 and over
$20,700 + 5.4%

If you buy at the median house price of $460,000 then you've got to cough up another $19,454 to the gubmint just for the priviledge of buying the bloody thing, it's fookin' hard to swallow I can tell ya......

[Lou Girardin]

The myth of the value of such????

I always thought that housing was the result of a boyant economy.

"NOT" a boyant economy based on housing??????

Am I missing something?



For a low wage economy to be so bouyant, the money must come from somewhere.
It's coming from people borrowing to spend their new-found equity on toys.
We're living in a house of cards.

[Edbear]

begs the million dollar question ...where would one live in NZ , have a Job ,,,and still have a small diposable , for the fun things

Wife working part time maybe


Dat's us, but we aren't typical.

My eldest daughter and her husband are trying to save for a house. Tough even though he's on a very good salary. Daughter looks after our Grandson and does a bit of part-time work. I and my two Sons-in-Law, thanks to youngest daughter's husband, have just started a website creation/hosting business, (check yourhomepage.co.nz ), which may explode on us and give us all the necessary means for them to save for their own houses.

We're trying to look after the Mother-in-Law who's 88 now, too, so may need to sell our place and find somewhere where she can live with us. Our driveway is too steep and our flat is upstairs but the house suits us. Not easy finding places here, for sure!

I feel sorry for youngsters starting out these days, but I clearly remember my parents buying their house back in '70. It was $8,000 in Warkworth and they really struggled to afford it and convince the Bank to lend them the money! It was tough way back then, too.

[Karma]

We're living in a house of cards.

Is that better or worse than glass houses?

[Edbear]

Is that better or worse than glass houses?



I t'ink it worser! Yo break a window yo fix it, but yo whole house fall down you up da creeek!!!:third:

[Guitana]

Where do you propose the boycotters live in the interim?
Surely not rent as that cause the investors to come in and push prices up wont it?

I'm renting and its a hell of a lot cheaper than paying a mortgage!!I've had a mortgage for the last 15 years and hated every fucken minute of it.Lifes alot easier at the mo just cruising and deciding what to do I have a good deposit but I'm in no hurry!Doing alot of riding with the extra cash left on payday for gas!
I've even managed to save some money last year first time in ages.
I really feel for the poor pricks saving for a house they will need at least $50k for a deposit with the rising costs of healthcare, food ,petrol and power theres a shit show of that happening.
Sooner or later the moneys gonna dry up the average kiwi can't afford to buy at those prices on the average wage.

[SPman]

Nup, not such thing in Oz, typical interest rate of about 7.5% at the moment.

The real kicker is the bloody stamp duty,...., it's fookin' hard to swallow I can tell ya......
Pricks made $10.2B last year!!
They charge it on everything!
Change of ownership on the bike was $8 fees and $220 stamp duty!!!!

[Lou Girardin]

I'm renting and its a hell of a lot cheaper than paying a mortgage!.

Not for us. We couldn't rent this place for what our mortgage is. (And it is still substantial)

[The Stranger]

For a low wage economy to be so bouyant, the money must come from somewhere.
It's coming from people borrowing to spend their new-found equity on toys.
We're living in a house of cards.

So I guess if it is such a bad thing you will be turning way all those Harley dollars from the mid life crises sufferers whom borrow against the house for one last fling before they go?