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Coyote
25th January 2007, 14:37
Tried to go for a ride into Wellington but along the way it would bog down if it revved low. I would have to redline it whenever I got it started again at every set of lights. And as I was going along the motorway it would bog down, but shifting down into higher revs seemed to keep it going.

I got as far as Motomart and I was suggested to get a new plug. Got the old one out, it was pretty stuffed, new one in. Still bogging down. Decided to go home cause the bike seemed to run if I redlined it and used the clutch to move, but when I got to melling bridge it bogged down and just wouldn't start from then on. Since I could only hand tighten the plug it had got a bit loose but i tightened it again but still not going. Had to call in Dad with the trailer to come pick me up

I've had battery troubles for a while now, a wire going to it must be broken cause it doesn't even use the battery. So the battery wasn't in the bike since it has seemed to be fine running on the alternator untill today. Plus the left front indicator doesn't work and when i indicate left the front right indicator would turn on.

What should I try to do? I have time to try do things myself because I'll put it's rego on hold. I've got to do the swingarm bushings and fork seals anyway

davereid
25th January 2007, 14:51
Its likely not electrical. Sounds like a carb problem to me, a blocked idle jet would be a likely culprit. Look there first !

Ixion
25th January 2007, 14:55
Bad fuel, water, blocked jet, alternator packed up , crank seals gone, seized. Pick one or more.

Coyote
25th January 2007, 15:06
It turns over so it's not seized

I thought about the carb. RG100 showed me how to clean one so I'll give that a shot. It was clogged up before after I put some silicon around the fuel tap since it was leaking and some of the silicon got inot the fuel line.

Could be fuel cause I got it from the second RG's fuel tank. Might've got some dirt from the transfer. Pretty sure no water got in.

Hope it's not gaskets or alternator


I'll give the carb a clean tomorrow and see what happens

imdying
25th January 2007, 15:30
How old was the fuel you put in?

Coyote
25th January 2007, 17:04
How old was the fuel you put in?
It was fairly old. It had been in the second RG for a few months

Can petrol go off?

Ixion
25th January 2007, 17:09
To some extent, yes. What happens is the more volatile components of the fuel evaporate , leaving the heavier residue. Eventually you end up with gum. But it takes more than a few months, and I would expect the problems to be immediate , not delayed.
I mentioned alternator because you said you had no battery and were running off the alternator. If that were dying it might need more and more revs to generate enough current for a spark. On reflection it is perhaps more likely that overvoltage from the alternator has cooked the regulator then the CDI and/or coil. Easily tested, do you have a good spark at kick over?

Wasp
25th January 2007, 20:53
dude, you need my cell# if you're going to be breaking down at melling cos i live less than 5 mins up that hill and could have put any tools needed into a back pack

i dont know much 'specially about 2 strokes but the bandit bogs down when the carbs are fouled - have to stop for 5 mins sometimes just sitting with it barely idling till it suddenly goes fine again (carbs are clean atm so all is good)

Coyote
26th January 2007, 08:04
To some extent, yes. What happens is the more volatile components of the fuel evaporate , leaving the heavier residue. Eventually you end up with gum. But it takes more than a few months, and I would expect the problems to be immediate , not delayed.
I mentioned alternator because you said you had no battery and were running off the alternator. If that were dying it might need more and more revs to generate enough current for a spark. On reflection it is perhaps more likely that overvoltage from the alternator has cooked the regulator then the CDI and/or coil. Easily tested, do you have a good spark at kick over?
Fair enough. Fuel appeared fine to me.

I have no idea if I'm getting a good spark. And it was in low gears that I had to rev high, and high gears I could rev half as much. It doesn't have a CDI but it does have a regulator which I'm scared I have broken. When I was plugging the new indicators in the other day something near the battery made a loud buzzing noise and stopped. From then on the battery wasn't being used (tacho was bouncing up and down when indicators were on, but the indicators wouldn't flash. And neutral light was faint). Remember I have a second bike that I can take parts off of to see what works or not.

How do I clean the carb? I opened it up and I don't know what to do. Can't remember what RG100 did when he showed me how to clean it. Some silicon clogged it up before after I tried plugging a leak around the fuel tap, I was fortunate enough to have his help. I'm thinking of just chucking the other bikes carb on just to get the bike going hopefully

Coyote
26th January 2007, 08:09
Here's a photo. Don't know what's what

Jeaves
26th January 2007, 09:46
Fair enough. Fuel appeared fine to me.

I have no idea if I'm getting a good spark. And it was in low gears that I had to rev high, and high gears I could rev half as much. It doesn't have a CDI but it does have a regulator which I'm scared I have broken. When I was plugging the new indicators in the other day something near the battery made a loud buzzing noise and stopped. From then on the battery wasn't being used (tacho was bouncing up and down when indicators were on, but the indicators wouldn't flash. And neutral light was faint). Remember I have a second bike that I can take parts off of to see what works or not.

How do I clean the carb? I opened it up and I don't know what to do. Can't remember what RG100 did when he showed me how to clean it. Some silicon clogged it up before after I tried plugging a leak around the fuel tap, I was fortunate enough to have his help. I'm thinking of just chucking the other bikes carb on just to get the bike going hopefully

When you say it doesnt have a CDI.....did you remove it or you didnt know you had one?

If so , check the + lead off the battery is ok and not earthing on the chassis somewhere and check/replace the fuse....hopefully that was the popping sound) . Provided your battery and alternator is ok this will fix the bouncing taco/faint lights etc .

Crisis management
26th January 2007, 10:02
Here's a photo. Don't know what's what

Congratulations, nor do any of us.....

Not wishing to be critical, but the bike is suffering from over enthusiastic and untrained mechanic......expect it to respond poorly to this attention.

I was the same when I discovered a 6" crescent and destroyed a lot of stuff whilst attempting to fix it.

The first move is to get a manual, read it and take your time. There are a gazillion people that will help with stuff you don't know, just ask but realise we can't diagnose by osmosis. Your best bet is a local guy that can come and help.

Its ok to accept help!!!

Do this systematically: drain all fuel, clean the tank, lines and carb SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY. Remember how it goes back together.

Buy new gas and use that.

Buy a new plug and check the timing / ignition (there may be nothing to fiddle with here)

It should run after that.

Good luck!

Coyote
26th January 2007, 10:43
Congratulations, nor do any of us.....

Not wishing to be critical, but the bike is suffering from over enthusiastic and untrained mechanic......expect it to respond poorly to this attention.

I was the same when I discovered a 6" crescent and destroyed a lot of stuff whilst attempting to fix it.

The first move is to get a manual, read it and take your time. There are a gazillion people that will help with stuff you don't know, just ask but realise we can't diagnose by osmosis. Your best bet is a local guy that can come and help.

Its ok to accept help!!!

Do this systematically: drain all fuel, clean the tank, lines and carb SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY. Remember how it goes back together.

Buy new gas and use that.

Buy a new plug and check the timing / ignition (there may be nothing to fiddle with here)

It should run after that.

Good luck!
Nyah nyah, got it working :bleh:

As in my first thread I've got a new plug. Tightened that up so that's no problem.

I swapped the carbs from both bikes. Put the fuel tank back on, kicked it, didn't go. So it wasn't fuel, it was electrical as I thought

Take the regulator off the other bikes wiring loom, one plug was an absolute bitch. Same plug was a bitch on the bike I was fixing. But eventually I got the regulators swapped over. Kicked it, didn't go

Onto the battery which made the buzzing noise. Took out the battery holder with this mysterious black box (CDI?). Swapped it with the other bikes one. It started going. Battery was connected but it still wasn't using it, but at least it was running off the alternator. Only problem is the indicators won't turn off. I'll switch back the regulators and see if this fixes it once I've had my lunch

When you say it doesnt have a CDI.....did you remove it or you didnt know you had one?

If so , check the + lead off the battery is ok and not earthing on the chassis somewhere and check/replace the fuse....hopefully that was the popping sound) . Provided your battery and alternator is ok this will fix the bouncing taco/faint lights etc .
RG100 told me it doesn't have a CDI. It could have been the black box. I'm not sure where the fuse is. Is it along the positive wire? Cause there's a big bit of plastic covering something before the wire gets to the positive terminal.

Took it for a spin around the block. It ran fine, except it bogged down a bit when I U-turned because I think the indicator is robbing the engine of it's spark. Plus when I was trying to start it after the ride both the indicators still on and the powervalves doing their usual opening up on start up made the bike bog down. Enough kicks got the alternator to power them all and start the bike up

The right rear indicator is the one thats fixed on. You can't switch it to the left, and the front ones don't work

Jeaves
26th January 2007, 10:51
yeah inside that plastic piece just after the + terminal is the fuse .

Yes that black box (with the two plugs) is what im calling the CDI.

Ixion
26th January 2007, 10:55
I'd be pretty certain that it has a CDI unit. Almost all bikes now except off roaders (no battery, no lights) have one. And it is very probably the "black box"

I think my suspicion is probably correct. Running for a prolonged period without a battery fried the regulator (changing that wouldn't alter the start/no start situation). The regulator gone, the very high voltage output from the alternator (with no regulation) stuffed the CDI unit.

I'd strongly recommend getting the battery reconnected before you blow a second CDI.

Your conclusion about the voltage dropping too low when the indicators are on is almost certainly correct.

EDIT


ause there's a big bit of plastic covering something before the wire gets to the positive terminal

That'll be an inline fuse.

Coyote
26th January 2007, 10:58
yeah inside that plastic piece just after the + terminal is the fuse .

Yes that black box (with the two plugs) is what im calling the CDI.
Excellent. Hopefully I can ride into town to get some fuse wire. Any idea what grade of wire I should get?

Oh right. So is it bung?

I'm right in assuming the indicator problem is due to the regulator? I remember something about our Ford Laser needing the regulator replaced since the indicators wouldn't flash, but when I asked dad about it he didn't remember

Crisis management
26th January 2007, 11:00
Glad you proved me wrong!

It's good to see you not giving up, I await the next installment.

Iain.

Coyote
26th January 2007, 11:01
I'd be pretty certain that it has a CDI unit. Almost all bikes now except off roaders (no battery, no lights) have one. And it is very probably the "black box"

I think my suspicion is probably correct. Running for a prolonged period without a battery fried the regulator (changing that wouldn't alter the start/no start situation). The regulator gone, the very high voltage output from the alternator (with no regulation) stuffed the CDI unit.

I'd strongly recommend getting the battery reconnected before you blow a second CDI.

Your conclusion about the voltage dropping too low when the indicators are on is almost certainly correct.

EDIT

That'll be an inline fuse.
Hooboy, I'll get the fuse first then. Won't ride into town for it though, I'll wait till Dad comes home so he can give me a lift into town

Coyote
26th January 2007, 11:03
Glad you proved me wrong!

It's good to see you not giving up, I await the next installment.

Iain.
Cheers

Although it was my ignorance that fried a CDI which might cost a bundle to replace

Trial and error I guess, I'll learn my lesson from this

Ixion
26th January 2007, 11:03
Good thinking. I'm thinking maybe the "buzzing" you spoke of was the CDI shrieking in pain.

Jeaves
26th January 2007, 11:06
Excellent. Hopefully I can ride into town to get some fuse wire. Any idea what grade of wire I should get?

Oh right. So is it bung?

I'm right in assuming the indicator problem is due to the regulator? I remember something about our Ford Laser needing the regulator replaced since the indicators wouldn't flash, but when I asked dad about it he didn't remember

its a 15a glass fuse (if ya lucky theres a spare inside that case , it holds two with one being a spare) otherwise anything 15a that you can fit nicely will do.

The indicator problem i would lay down to the lack of juice getting to the relay - that being a guess

Coyote
26th January 2007, 11:10
Good thinking. I'm thinking maybe the "buzzing" you spoke of was the CDI shrieking in pain.
Oh gosh, poor thing

its a 15a glass fuse (if ya lucky theres a spare inside that case , it holds two with one being a spare) otherwise anything 15a that you can fit nicely will do.

The indicator problem i would lay down to the lack of juice getting to the relay.
Cheers. I'll have a look. If there isn't a second there might be one in the other RG. Pretty sure the original fuse on that one is broken too

Off to the gargre!

Ixion
26th January 2007, 11:11
A wee bit of theory :

A bike alternator , in the absence of anything else , will produce some very high voltages . 20 to 30 volts typically.

We only want about 13 and a bit to run things and charge the battery.

Normally the alternator current (after being turned into DC) is fed to the battery. The battery is a big "sink" that "absorbs" the current. To make sure that the battery doesn't get over charged, there is a voltage regulator. This "shunts off" any voltage once the battery is fully charged.

When you run without the battery , all the alternator current is directly fed through to the regulator. Do that for too long , and the regulator gives up the unequal struggle and dies. Now, the whole 30 odd volts is fed into the bikes electrical system. The CDI unit (and other stuff) that is designed to run at 12 volts is suddenly getting hit with 30 volts. So after a bit, it too dies.The DCI unit will usually be the first to go, since it is full of transistors and other delicate whizzy stuff. No CDI unit, no spark. Or feak and weeble ones. Bike, him no go.

(Purists will note that I've simplifed things abit. It's a bit more complex, but that's the general idea)

Coyote
26th January 2007, 11:28
Interesting stuff. Good to know


Both fuses were stuffed, but the seconds bikes fuses were perfect. The neutral light is bright green, battery works!

But indicators are still a problem. the right rear stays on and you can't turn it off. And if you indicate left both the rear indicators go on. And both times they just turn on, there's no flashing. The front ones were doing nothing so i unplugged them to see what would happen. No change to the rear indicators. So next to the bright green neutral light there is a bright orange indicator light not flashing

What should I do?

Ixion
26th January 2007, 12:00
You may have fried the flasher unit also. Do you have a spare on the donor bike? And check the bulbs .

Coyote
26th January 2007, 12:01
When you run without the battery , all the alternator current is directly fed through to the regulator. Do that for too long , and the regulator gives up the unequal struggle and dies.
Does the regulator have much to do with the indicators?

Jeaves
26th January 2007, 12:02
Interesting stuff. Good to know


Both fuses were stuffed, but the seconds bikes fuses were perfect. The neutral light is bright green, battery works!

But indicators are still a problem. the right rear stays on and you can't turn it off. And if you indicate left both the rear indicators go on. And both times they just turn on, there's no flashing. The front ones were doing nothing so i unplugged them to see what would happen. No change to the rear indicators. So next to the bright green neutral light there is a bright orange indicator light not flashing

What should I do?

swap over the indicator relay with the one off your other bike (it sits next to the CDI on the left .

Ixion
26th January 2007, 12:03
Only in that so long as it is still there regulating the indicators won't get hit with over voltage. Regulator is what keeps the bikes electricty at 12 volts (nominal) .

What you need to look for is the flasher unit. Typically , a small metal can about an inch in diameter (or square) with three leads. Though there are other varieties.

Coyote
26th January 2007, 12:11
swap over the indicator relay with the one off your other bike (it sits next to the CDI on the left .


Only in that so long as it is still there regulating the indicators won't get hit with over voltage. Regulator is what keeps the bikes electricty at 12 volts (nominal) .

What you need to look for is the flasher unit. Typically , a small metal can about an inch in diameter (or square) with three leads. Though there are other varieties.
Well the little black box next to the CDI seems to be the relay. With either one from each bike, turn the indicator right and the right is on, left and both are on but the indicator light on the dash is off, turn them off and the right one stays on. Without the little black box plugged in the right rear indicator stays on but the indicator light on the dash turns off

Confusin innit

And when you indicate left the black box makes a click as the rear left indicator turns on

Jeaves
26th January 2007, 12:32
Ok , now as Ixion has already mentioned , check all the bulbs are plugged in correctly and the same wattage

Coyote
26th January 2007, 12:48
Ok , now as Ixion has already mentioned , check all the bulbs are plugged in correctly and the same wattage
Broke another fuse trying to plug in the front indicators

I'll disconnect the rear right indicator and go off to the shop. Gets some extra fuses and see if they can take a quick look

Coyote
26th January 2007, 13:37
Effing blimmin rego ended on the 17th. How more illegal can it get. Warrant ends next month. And I was meant to take a girl out riding this Sunday. Effing girls and bikes making my life awkward

The shop was too busy to give the bike a quick look. The mechanic said the indicators must be shorting out. They gave me my fuses and said to pay them next time I'm in the store

And after all that effort, I've got work in an hour!

Ixion
26th January 2007, 13:46
Now you are come to the fons et origo of your problem

You have a short in the indicator circuit. Almost certainly a chafed wire, and very likely a wire leading from the one that is permanently on. Or the one that doesn't go at all

That short blew the main fuse. So the battery was disconnected. No battery, the regulator dies. No regulator, over voltage cooked the CDi.

Find that wire(s). Tape it up and you're good to go. No esoteric knowledge needed here, just a sharp eye.

Coyote
28th January 2007, 07:41
Now you are come to the fons et origo of your problem

You have a short in the indicator circuit. Almost certainly a chafed wire, and very likely a wire leading from the one that is permanently on. Or the one that doesn't go at all

That short blew the main fuse. So the battery was disconnected. No battery, the regulator dies. No regulator, over voltage cooked the CDi.

Find that wire(s). Tape it up and you're good to go. No esoteric knowledge needed here, just a sharp eye.
Oh right, very good. The problems started from my second to last fall when the right front indicator was ripped off. I got some wire crimps and got the plugs sorted, I'm not sure if I had neglected any chafed wires

Yesterday I was swapping over the forks so I could replace the seals on the original set when I had the time. As I was pushing the forks up through the clamps the bike tipped off it's stand and landed on it's tank. There's a nice dent on it now. Not very big but it's where a lot of the tanks curves met and it'll be hard bringing it back to it's original shape. And I broke the clutch lever which the local shop didn't have a replacement for.

I got a new brake lever though which is pretty bling. Satin black and has 4 adjustments to get the lever as far from the handlebar as you like. 25 bucks, only 5 bucks more than a cheap chrome-imitation lever with no adjustment (still, that's 3 hours of work at countdown to pay for that)

Coyote
28th January 2007, 14:34
Yuss!

Fixed the indicators. Got rid of the silly visibike system that made a confusing mess of wires. Once that was out of the way it was obvious where the indicators plugged into and once they were plugged in they worked. They flash and everything. And what's more the front indicators don't turn on with the bike! No more people pointing out the beelding obvious saying that they're on, and drivers thinking you're indicating cause they can't see the opposite side indicator on.

I'm quite chuffed. All it requires now is a right side mirror and a clutch lever and it'll be road legal

Jeaves
28th January 2007, 14:58
Yuss!

Fixed the indicators. Got rid of the silly visibike system that made a confusing mess of wires. Once that was out of the way it was obvious where the indicators plugged into and once they were plugged in they worked. They flash and everything. And what's more the front indicators don't turn on with the bike! No more people pointing out the beelding obvious saying that they're on, and drivers thinking you're indicating cause they can't see the opposite side indicator on.

I'm quite chuffed. All it requires now is a right side mirror and a clutch lever and it'll be road legal

excellent work bud.