Throttle blipping.

[James Deuce]

That darn Keith Code has done my head in again.

Here's a challenge for you.

When down changing, braking heavily, and blipping the throttle between each change, are your forks pogoing up and down?

As you rotate your throttle hand back to blip the throttle, you can inadvertently add pressure to the brake lever.

The goal here is to keep the bike's attitude and forces acting on the front tyre consistent. This is especially important when braking heavily and down changing rapidly, as even a small variation of the forces working on the front tyre can cause a sudden and rapid loss of front wheel traction, just when you have 99% of the bike and rider's weight torturing that there front tyre.

I've found that letting my fingers move back over the lever as I rotate my hand back modulates the pressure on the lever enough to avoid that pogoing action. Not perfect yet, but I'm working on it.

Damn that Keith Code.

[Mr. Peanut]

That's what two strokes are for, bang it down two gears and drop the clutch.

I've noticed that effect though.

[Fat Tony]

I thought getting a bike with a slipper clutch would sort this for me... did it hell... blipping the throttle's far more fun anyway

[sAsLEX]

What fingers do you brake with? as I guess this would play a part. Some use index and next, some a whole hand and I have seen some racers use outside 3 and depending on which type of grip you use really dictates how effectively you can isolate blipping from braking.....

[bugjuice]

mine/I don't, cos I've practiced enough that I can brake hard but consistently with the first 2 fingies and blip quick so that the bike doesn't change its character from what I want it to do.. Pays to practice!

[TerminalAddict]

I haven't figured out how to blip and brake :(

should I put both hand on the right bar? One for braking, one for blipping?

[James Deuce]

Two fingers. Index and "instructional" finger. I hadn't honestly thought about this aspect of riding, but when I read that Code article in PB - boing, boing, boing.

The key to getting better at anything is isolating what you could improve and then improving on it.

The side effect to working on this aspect of braking is isolating and planning each action on the way into a corner. It's given me more "virtual time" on corner entry and I don't use up as much mental process leaving space for other things like altering lines for 4WDs on my side of the road.

I thought I had it sussed too bugjuice - until I started monitoring the process. 50% of the time it was good. The rest of the time, just a little bit hopeless.

[Flyingpony]

Why blip the throttle .... it's so much easier just to plant the engine RPM at about 2x idle and use engine vibration to ensure all down shifts click into place smoothly each and every time your foot demands one.

Besides, releasing the clutch while under heavy brakes is suicide ... the rear locks up real quick due to transmission ratio torque etc ... not a good idea to lose traction when you need traction and any input from the engine braking is mute since speed can be readily washed off quicker than down shifting can keep up. So basically, once I have to start down shifting, the clutch remains disengaged until the right gear ratio for acceleration is reached - typically that means going from 5th or 6th (55km/hr) into 2nd (8km/hr), clutch gets disengaged around 20km/hr just before engine stalls.

Therefore, you are left with concentrating on what you're doing - braking heavily, avoiding collision and down gearing, with absolutely no concern about blipping and it's impact on applied front brake pressure or rear wheel traction loss due to transmission ratio torque.

Well, that's the approach I need to use when riding this 150cc bike, it probably doesn't apply to those with larger engine capacity and their higher gear ratio's.

[bistard]

mine/I don't, cos I've practiced enough that I can brake hard but consistently with the first 2 fingies and blip quick so that the bike doesn't change its character from what I want it to do.. Pays to practice!

I dont have a choice,I only have two fingers that bend on my right hand,still manage to brake,pretty fecking hard & blip the throttle without the Jim2 pogo
situation,all practise I suppose
The best way around the whole thing is a "slipper clutch",what a fantastic invention,should be on all sport/race bikes

[James Deuce]

Flyingpony needs a Jedi master.

Real bikes with real engine braking will lock the rear at the drop of a hat, plus matching engine revs to transmission speed will save a lot of wear and tear, plus master it and your corner entries will be MUCH smoother than just banging down through the box.

When I was racing (no, not chariots you cheeky monkey), the RC's idle speed was set to 3000rpm and you'd glide into sweepers like you were on a magic carpet. Still had to blip to get it perfect though.

[ManDownUnder]

mine/I don't, cos I've practiced enough that I can brake hard but consistently with the first 2 fingies and blip quick so that the bike doesn't change its character from what I want it to do.. Pays to practice!

Gotta admit I think I'm in the same camp but Jim's post has given me food for thought...

I know that when it really matters (overcooking a corner and braking like a crazy man) I don;t bother changing down - the engine can rev right down for all I care... I just want to stay on the road.

[bugjuice]

Why blip the throttle .... it's so much easier just to plant the engine RPM at about 2x idle and use engine vibration ..blah blah somebitshere.... their higher gear ratio's.
sorry, not to cut your post down, but it's already up there to read..

The theory of blipping is to maximuse the potential of engine braking on the rear wheel, without locking up the rear, cos the engine revs died down below the point it should be at, thus locking the rear. This also helps to keep the engine at high rpms (just under the ideal power) for the exit of the corner. Any sized engine is capable of doing it. Smaller engines don't suffer as much, because the torque they produce isn't great enough, but still can happen. It's more important when the engine size increases, because it's easier to upset the rear with the engine and the torque it produces. It's only really important tho, when riding hard. When normal riding, there's no call for blipping, unless you're lazy like me and just don't use the clutch (but that's another debate).

Find someone to guide you and give you tips (if you're interested in this route and want to learn some new tricks) and suck what you can, I don't mind offering up either..

[vifferman]

Linked brakes. :yes:

[bugjuice]

makes them a bitch to back-end the bike in!

[toymachine]

I love blipping the throttle... i just downshift using a blip even if i'm doing 14kish rpm... and use engine braking, can do whole rides like this (apart from like intersections etc obviously)

As far as braking and blipping, so far I can only do a blip while lightly holding the rear brake...

[scumdog]

I blip'nbrake when about to enter a tight corner, intersection etc but mainly on open road stuff, around town I rarely chage more than one gear and that's a low speed.

I noticed Jim2 pogo-stick action more when I let the clutch back out and the deceleration from the engine braking causes the front to dip even further for a second or two, more noticable on down-hill braking when two-up and loaded with gear.

[RantyDave]

When down changing, braking heavily, and blipping the throttle between each change, are your forks pogoing up and down?
No. It all sounds far too complicated. I want a slipper clutch because I'm a lazy bastard.

Dave

[Motu]

Ding,ding,ding....don't need to blip man.

But with the TS400 it was (to quote Ixion) fucking big DING! Like getting a size 13 slammed into your back.An unwelcome surprise on an off camber down hill right on a loose surface.

[Pwalo]

I don't have any troubles blipping the throttle, braking, and changing down, but then I've been riding the same make/model for five years.

Sometimes I find it helps to run a trailing rear brake to help settle the whole show down, but it's all practice (and it probably helps having a Suzuki gearbox, even a GS one).

[slowpoke]

When I was racing (no, not chariots you cheeky monkey), the RC's idle speed was set to 3000rpm and you'd glide into sweepers like you were on a magic carpet. Still had to blip to get it perfect though.


So you didn't just own an RC30...you raced it as well, Jim? Yowza, I seem to have gone a curious shade of kawasaki green...........

[James Deuce]

I raced it once. Those magnesium engine covers were expensive. First (and only) meeting cost about $3500

[Finn]

That's what two strokes are for, bang it down two gears and drop the clutch.

No. Two strokes are for garden work like lawnmowers, hedge trimmers & weedwackers.

[Ivan]

That's what two strokes are for, bang it down two gears and drop the clutch.

I've noticed that effect though.

I race a 2 stroke GP bike and I blip it on gear change down,

For 2 reasons


A: The bike feels alot smoother when blipping it down when changing from 6th to 1st yes you do that on a125 you go from 6th gear to 1st.

B: A 2 stroke when you let the throttle off Doesnt get oil to the cylinders as much and can cause a seize, I have doen it ever since I blew my 125 up in a race.

I guess its up to the rider to decide what they want to do,

But heres how I do it from a racers view

I have 2 fingers applied to front brake lever and my other 3 fingers on the throttle I keep applying pressure to the front brake lever and use my thumb to blip the throttle so long as you keep your wits about you, you wont apply to much pressure tot he front brakes and make the bike pogo also your suspension could be set to soft if you hit the brakes hard and the bike pogos I sure know I wouldnt want to be riding a bike which pogo sticked around a corner.

[crash harry]

Found it much easier on the 9R than on the busa - the busa picks up revs too quickly and it's easy to overcook the blip!

I think the smaller the engine the easier it is (to a point) because if you miss the exact revs there's less engine momentum to overcome.

I imagine it's a pain in the arse on a big V-Twin

[gixermike]

"I imagine it's a pain in the arse on a big V-Twin"

I thought that, but it's not too bad actually....took a bit of getting used to after a IL4 600, bit more violent / sudden when you get it wrong...

It helps to wind all the slack out of the throttle cable so the amount you need to move your right hand before anything happens is less..makes the throttle instant, which is also nice for coming back on the throttle mid lean in corners. it hads load sof slack when i picked it up and was a bit of a pig for blipping...now no time delay..:yes:

[k14]

I race a 2 stroke GP bike and I blip it on gear change down,
Waste of time. No way will a RS125 compression lock up on downchanges. I never ever blip the RS. On my old road bike (CBR250) I used to blip all the time, but its not necessary on the RS. Use your concentration on other things, blipping is just a waste of time.

On my bucket I am a bit lazy but that will compression lock if I change down a gear a bit early, sometimes I blip but most of the time I won't.

[Ixion]

I always blip. Habit of a lifetime.

[Crisis management]

I have always blipped to reduce the gearbox confusion and don't seem to have a problem with braking & blipping.

Hey that means I can multi-task, wait till I tell the wife!

Back to earth (she probably wouldn't believe that anyway)... if I have to stop in a hurry I use brakes and ignore all else, engine braking is going to do less than a decent brake anyway.

Keep practicing Jim!

[James Deuce]

Umm, the idea wasn't to make me look like a hopeless case. I have no drama blipping on the down change. I'm just saying that on close examination my technique could be a lot better, and after reading a Keith Code article I realised that there are ways to fix little inconsistencies.

The pogoing I'm talking about is like 2cm max, but when you've got everything on the limit that pogo could be enough to generate a low side as you tip in.

I don't think any of you are as perfect as you think you are. Actually monitor your down changes and I bet you all do a little pogo into first as you are pulling up to a stop.

I'm trying to get to the point of ultimate smoothness. I won;t get there in my lifetime, but I'm going to try. I think you're all picturing a giant orange, bellowing, bouncing mess.

Not.

[bugjuice]

nothing wrong with orange

[Motu]

[LEFT]
I don't think any of you are as perfect as you think you are.

I think you should retract that statement,some of us might be insulted....

[Pwalo]

Umm, the idea wasn't to make me look like a hopeless case. I have no drama blipping on the down change. I'm just saying that on close examination my technique could be a lot better, and after reading a Keith Code article I realised that there are ways to fix little inconsistencies.

The pogoing I'm talking about is like 2cm max, but when you've got everything on the limit that pogo could be enough to generate a low side as you tip in.

I don't think any of you are as perfect as you think you are. Actually monitor your down changes and I bet you all do a little pogo into first as you are pulling up to a stop.

I'm trying to get to the point of ultimate smoothness. I won;t get there in my lifetime, but I'm going to try. I think you're all picturing a giant orange, bellowing, bouncing mess.

Not.




Come on Jim. Keith Code's an interesting chap, but I don't think you want to get too hung up on self examination. As he would no doubt say in his hippy way you don't have enough 'attention points' (sorry I can't remember what his phrase is) to spend whilst road riding.

I'm sure it would be a great exercise on the track, but just too many varaibles on the road to pay THAT much attention to technique on the road.

Have you got your transition points sorted yet?

[James Deuce]

I think it is important to review yourself from time to time and NOT fall into the trap of thinking you are perfect.

I was obviously wrong and I'm sorry I even posted it.

[Swoop]

enough 'attention points' (sorry I can't remember what his phrase is) to spend whilst road riding.

"$10 worth of attention"

EDIT: Jim, you are quite right to have posted it. Smoothness of control, especially when cornering, is so important when aiming to keep the contact of rubber and tarseal.

[Keystone19]

I don't blip on my race bike. I have tried but I have trouble multi-tasking the blip/brake continuum at speed - perhaps my brain stops working at over 200kph? Or maybe I'm actually a bloke and can't multitask at all...:gob:

On the track I brake and down change simultaneously, using the engine braking to slow the bike down as well as the brakes, and then I drop it into the corner. Sometimes I trail the brakes round the corner if need be - if I'm not braking I'm accelerating...:yes: Seems to work for me and I don't seem to have problems with pogoing, losing the rear or anything else - maybe I'm just not going fast enough...?

I have been practicing blipping on the SV1000. Sounds good but doesn't seem to make any difference in terms of pogoing, losing the rear or anything else.

[sAsLEX]

I have 2 fingers applied to front brake lever and my other 3 fingers on the throttle I keep applying pressure to the front brake lever and use my thumb to blip the throttle so long as you keep your wits about you

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5 Fingers and a thumb you could make some money on the professional banjo circuit!

[Ivan]

Waste of time. No way will a RS125 compression lock up on downchanges. I never ever blip the RS. On my old road bike (CBR250) I used to blip all the time, but its not necessary on the RS. Use your concentration on other things, blipping is just a waste of time.

On my bucket I am a bit lazy but that will compression lock if I change down a gear a bit early, sometimes I blip but most of the time I won't.

Yeah I know but its a habbit and I am used to it so will keep doing it I can concentrate on lots of things on it at the same time. Its jsut natural I have been doing it for a long time now 2 years so it just happens in the corner I know it wont compression lock but it gives it a better down smoother downshift its my opinion and I ride the bike how I like to, Kinda like I have it as a theroy of getting more oil to the piston as the throttle is let of, I do it because I feel comfartble doing it and its part of my rding, Kinda like how you feel comfartble not dragging your knee its in each riders opinion

[Ivan]

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5 Fingers and a thumb you could make some money on the professional banjo circuit!

Ok that video some hillbilly shit

[Hoon]

Keith Code posted an article about this last year (http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=258&st=0).

Blipping on down changes isn't necessary on the street. Even racing you can do without it. However once you get to a certain level, you need to use it to gain vital fractions of a sec.

When approaching a low/mid speed corner which requires hard braking and a downshift, I would just brake, change down and ease the clutch out while waiting for the revs to pick up/clutch to bite before tipping in. However as I got faster, I wasn't able to speed up this "revs pick up/clutch bite" part. This resulted in me overshooting the corner or if I tried to let the clutch out faster, would lock up the back wheel. Loosebruce noticed me doing this one track day and told me I need to blip the throttle while changing down/before letting out the clutch.

Not only does this bring the revs up almost instantly (eliminating that "wait for bite" time), it also meant I could let the clutch out a lot quicker without risking a lock up.

So I went out and practiced this (forced myself to do it every down shift for a while) and noticed immediate benefits. However the next problem I had was keeping the braking smooth while blipping the throttle (i.e. the pogo action). My solution to this was blipping the throttle not by using the wrist but using a more violent down/up elbow action. This allowed me to maintain a more constant brake pressure by keeping my fingers/wrist locked. You often see racers on TV doing the same exaggerated elbow thing approaching corners.

[Hitcher]

There's no point blipping the throttle unless there's somebody impressionable around to listen.

[Ixion]

I think Mr Hoon has it right. I blip by moving my arm not my wrist.

And on a big single it is highly necessary to blip on downchanges to the lower gears or risk a rear wheel lock up. Also helps with the actual gearchange on boxes with big hugly cogs. And bikes with heavy flywheels. Try changing a DBD34 into first without blipping. Not nice.

[The Stranger]

makes them a bitch to back-end the bike in!

back-end the bike in?
What you mean by that buggy?

[Jimmy B]

back-end the bike in?
What you mean by that buggy?

I think he maybe referring to the fact that linked brakes will fire a front caliper when applying the rear only - as you know. This according to some will reduce the ability of those that favour using the rear to help tip and turn the bike into a corner. I dont ride quick enough to worry about this although for scientific purposes have tried it with linked brakes and the bike did seem to tip in a bit quicker despite the front having some load, not enough difference to worry about.

Oddly critics of linked brakes suggest that while trail braking with the front only the Bike has a tendancey to back in anyway due to the rear caliper being somewhat engaged. I havent noticed this but what can you do hey, some say one thing and other another.

[sAsLEX]

back-end the bike in?
What you mean by that buggy?

I think he means in the style of say flattrackers like Hayden who like to ""översteer"" in a fashion in to the corners

[bugjuice]

yeah, 'trail' or slide the back in..
by 'over-use' of the rear brake and/or the engine (harder when you've got a slipper clutch), you can slide the back end into a corner.. Motards are better at it, I do it just before I fall off

[The Stranger]

yeah, 'trail' or slide the back in..
by 'over-use' of the rear brake and/or the engine (harder when you've got a slipper clutch), you can slide the back end into a corner.. Motards are better at it, I do it just before I fall off

But ok, isn't this kind of contrary to blipping the throttle.
I mean - Blackbird has linked brakes and I used to change down and pop the clutch to cause the arse to slide in as you indicate.
Wasn't sure initially if you were referring to trail braking, which is still very effective on the blackbird anyway despite the linked brakes.

[Jimmy B]

But ok, isn't this kind of contrary to blipping the throttle.
I mean - Blackbird has linked brakes and I used to change down and pop the clutch to cause the arse to slide in as you indicate.
.

Jebus CaN how did you get away with that???

[The Stranger]

Jebus CaN how did you get away with that???

Like most things I do in life - first time it was an accident.

[Jimmy B]

Like most things I do in life - first time it was an accident.

Nice one, certainly not for the faint hearted, sounds like the prequel to that other move....tankslapper highside

[Motu]

Try changing a DBD34 into first without blipping. Not nice.

Yeah,the heavy flywheels on my B31 were a pretty steep learning curve as a 16 year old - no way has a 400lb bike on a 3.50x19 got any control over those flywheels,it'd snake down the road with the engine idling.The other side of the coin was the upshift,the stored energy of the flywheel was like a push from behind from the playground bully.

Actualy the same thing used to happen with my XLV750 on gravel....as I found out on the Whatipu road soon after I got it.On corner entry the motor would run at whatever revs it wanted to,regardless of road speed.So I'd come into a corner with the engine idling,totaly out of touch with the surface and no way to regain control short of bringing the revs up to powerslide level.First time it happened I went straight through an S bend into the ditch.A rethink on my riding style saw me using a gear higher on entry,changing down for exit,gravel and seal.

[Titanium]

Just sounds cool and ya can get flames as well..... best attempted with loud zorsts .....

Special botormikes like ZX14's with 2 bros cans and BMW K1200S with Akrapovic full titanium systems, oh yeah and cbr1000rrrrrrrrr with a micron can and big twins with loud zorsts.

:Punk:

[The Pastor]

Hmmmm, Im not sure I understand all this techni talk.

On my bike sometimes when I need to brake hard and downchange, when I am letting the clutch out, the back locks up. Is everyone saying that blipping the throttle and keeping the revs up stops this? I used to blip the throttle when I drove a car, havnt really tried it on my bike.....

[NordieBoy]

There's no point blipping the throttle unless there's somebody impressionable around to listen.

But on a big single with an appropriate pipe they don't need to even be nearby :D

I blip and always have - VT250F, LS400, Nordie, DR650.
Not for the rear wheel lockup issues but for the driveline mechanical sympathy issues.

Even when a wasp got in my helmet and I accidentally pushed it into the helmet ear cavity I went from 110kph to stopped in about 2.5 metres and was blipping all the way.
It's how I downshift - no thinking involved.

[MacD]

I think Mr Hoon has it right. I blip by moving my arm not my wrist.

And on a big single it is highly necessary to blip on downchanges to the lower gears or risk a rear wheel lock up. Also helps with the actual gearchange on boxes with big hugly cogs. And bikes with heavy flywheels. Try changing a DBD34 into first without blipping. Not nice.

Yep, I find when swapping from the Bandit to my SRX (400 single) that the Bandit has made me lazy on the downchanges and I get a couple of rear wheel lockups until I re-engage my brain for the single and start blipping again. As usual there is no single correct way of doing things, you need to adapt to the bike you are riding at the time.

I'm still not sure what I think about Keith Code's books. I guess my dogma detectors start twitching when I read them?

[bikemike]

What should we be doing here? Like some say, I do same by habit. Have thought about it and worked on it from time to time though and this is what I reckon:

It goes pear shaped when thinking about blipping downshifts gets more attention than braking. Simple as that. Most times, for most riding, the firm braking is happening sufficiently separate from downshifts that the pogoing does not occur.

There's two tasks; getting a smooth non-clunky gear shift, and getting a smooth re-engagement of power to the road. Do they have to be two steps?

I think many bikers de-clutch, blip and downshift, open throttle again and engage clutch - whilst braking. What does this offer over de-clutch, open throttle, downshift, and engage clutch? I try this and if I get it right is seems a whole lot better than blipping.

I still blip though...

At town speeds you might also get this pogoing if you are not closing the throttle down enough fully and you are fighting the brakes with the engine. As soon as you de-clutch again you dive... who me? Never, I rides telelever don't you know ;-)

[NordieBoy]

Also for it to be effective you need to get the "let the clutch out" part right.
Too soon and the engine has to many revs, too late and you might as well not have blipped as the engine has returned to pre-blip revs.

[Flyingpony]

Flyingpony needs a Jedi master.
I think so too.


Find someone to guide you and give you tips (if you're interested in this route and want to learn some new tricks) and suck what you can, I don't mind offering up either..
I think so too, but it seems the locals don't do rides any more except to rallies which I'm unable to attend (no leather gear & boots).

Happened to be out on the bike yesterday and practised some emergency stops. Using my normal method from 55km/hr in 5th to stationary, I stopped quicker in comparison to when I attempted to blip and down shift as well as braking. This could be due to skill level and experience getting my brain & right hand to brake/blip simultaneously.

Another problem I noticed, when the clutch was released after each down shift, the engine was again low down near stalling RPM, so in reality, it was a pointless exercise. My bike needs 4 down shifts to reach 1st gear whilst most larger bikes would only require 1 or 2 when braking from 55km/hr.

In the meantime, I'll stick with status quo.

As for lining up corners, hills and slowing for traffic lights etc, I double blip all down shifts.

[sAsLEX]

Ok that video some hillbilly shit

I have called both Mensa and MIT and they are holding places for you!

[madandy]

I brake with outter 3 fingers. Index & thumb stray wrapped around the grip. There is a distinct elbow movement used also. Un-practised, just adopted that method naturally. Ok I read a book about trying different finger combinations for braking and found I preferred the outter 3 fingers.
I find myself to be much smoother [on the brakes and blipping] and more accurate at rev matching when riding at speed, IE: track days;).
Around town on the YZF600R I'd be in 2nd,3rd or 4th gear depending on posted limit 50, 60 ,70 or 80km/h and often would change down well in advance of any braking point for the sake of smoothness and lack of being in a hurry.
If my next ride is a big twin I expect to enjoy plenty of rev matching:sunny:

[sAsLEX]

I brake with outter 3 fingers. Index & thumb stray wrapped around the grip. There is a distinct elbow movement used also. Un-practised, just adopted that method naturally. Ok I read a book about trying different finger combinations for braking and found I preferred the outter 3 fingers.
I find myself to be much smoother [on the brakes and blipping] and more accurate at rev matching when riding at speed, IE: track days;).
Around town on the YZF600R I'd be in 2nd,3rd or 4th gear depending on posted limit 50, 60 ,70 or 80km/h and often would change down well in advance of any braking point for the sake of smoothness and lack of being in a hurry.
If my next ride is a big twin I expect to enjoy plenty of rev matching:sunny:

Does the outside "pinky" finger reach naturally or do you require lever adjustment?

[bungbung]

Happened to be out on the bike yesterday and practised some emergency stops.

I wouldn't worry about blipping during an emergency.

Better to stop in time than being in the correct gear after the emergency, mostly.

[sAsLEX]

I wouldn't worry about blipping during an emergency.

Better to stop in time than being in the correct gear after the emergency, mostly.

And often, though people never try it, the throttle is far more effective in removing ones self from harms way!