*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[Colapop]

I included the *Warning* signs in the title of this thread because I may inadvertently swear and curse.

To start off with I have many Maori, or people who call themselves Maori, friends, aquaintences, and workmates. My friends I trust - I don't give a flying fuck about race.

What the fuck is with these cunts that think they're making 'progress' by trying to forward their claims of Maori sovereignty? They want to fly their flag from the Auckland harbour bridge on Waitangi day. Who the fuck do they think they are? Why do we need a separate set of rules for one ethnic group in this country? Don't try and tell me "Because the Maori are the native people of this land" BULLSHIT. They are migrants here like everybody else. If you want to argue semantics, the Mori Ori should have their flag flown. Where are the Mori Ori? Oh that's right when the Maori came here they waged a war against the Mori Ori and virtually wiped them out. Ate them didn't they? But that's different to the European 'invasion' because the European didn't commit genocide (arguable point - maybe they tried?)
The point is that we have in NZ a country that is made up of a number of different peoples from different cultures the world over. The country (infrastructure, society, culture) was built from the blood, sweat, & tears of these people. We have a very proud history that encompassess a wide range of cultures and yet we give great respect to the Maori culture - the Haka, Maori place names, and funding for Maori cultural/education programmes. It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country. Fuck the devisive shit stirring cunts and their attempts to make the rest of us treat them with kid gloves.


One set of rules for one country.

[MaPeXi]

Spot on. well said

[yungatart]

Yep, what he said! It only encourages divisiveness and separatism, neither of which are healthy, IMO

[onearmedbandit]

Can't disagree with you there.

[jimbo600]

Usual shit for this time of year. Angry twats pontificating about sovereignty this and that. Thats why Waitangi day should be renamed NZ Day.

[The Pastor]

Bah humbug, this doesnt concern me at all. Let the moari get in to power - then we will see what happens. Are they going to increase tax? Doubt it. Are they going to ban motorbikes? No. So therefore nothing bad can happen.

[WarlockNZ]

giving what to who now ???

52486

[Hitcher]

In the words of a real estate agent: Know them before you judge them.

[onearmedbandit]

Problem is that we can't fully know them, as they can't fully know us. So some middle ground has to be found. Yeah right.

[Hillbilly]

Hmmmm....Racial Segragation by Legislation. There's a word for that -
APATHIED!!!

[Macktheknife]

Nah, fuck em all, tired of the divisive shit stirring bastards. I am quite happy to share this beautiful, bountiful country with whoever wants to live here in peace, anyone else can, and should, fuck off and leave the rest of us in peace.
Starting with the entire Harawira family.:motu: :motu: :finger: :finger: :kick:

[Smokin]

I'm with you all the way on this one mate.

[davereid]

Never met a maori. Met a few New Zealanders of maori descent. No maoris though. Met a chinaman the other day. But he was a New Zealander too.

Stick your racsist ideas up your arse - that goes for those of european descent, but it also goes for those of maori descent who want to divide our country on rascist grounds.
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I DON'T CARE WHO YOUR GRANDAD WAS OK !
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[madandy]

Grant them their sovereignty...the Maori currency should be worthless and the NZ government could stop paying out our bloody taxes to support a minority.
I did my Turf Management apprenticeship on Waitangi Golf Course...every year at this time the radicals invaded the community and staunched around like it was their own land...many of the local Maori, my friends and rugby team mates disliked the disruption immensely:nono:

[riffer]

It all gets a bit boring this time of year. And as usual, the media talk it up because it sells papers and gets people watching the news, which helps to push up costs of advertising.

Don't believe what you read in the media.

My wife is Tainui. My kids are too. But we're all New Zealanders. And that's how most people in this country think.

Some stupid loudmouths who are just grandstanding won't affect a lot.

[outlawtorn]

dude, run for parliament, you'd get my vote!

[Hillbilly]

let's all sing along now....:woohoo:

I don’t give a hangi for the Treaty of Waitangi,
You can’t get fat on that - give me some Puha and Pākehā.

You take a little umu and you get it very hot,
You catch a little Pākehā and put him in a pot,
Cook him all up in your old home brew,
And what have you got? Kiwi Stew.

They call it....Puha and Pakeha, Puha and Pakeha,
The finest food you could ever wish for.....

[candor]

I've got a heap of "maori" whanau. Most are adamant they are Maori before they are "New Zealanders". Prolly cos their ancestors refused to go to war for NZ due to treaty breaches, and general long standing poor treatment.

Funnily most of my Maori whanau do not regard pakeha like me or our culture or the technology we bought as gods gift exactly. Resentments are very very deep and very very real and very very justified. Anyone who takes the time to undo pakeha conditioning and learn the real history of this country fast works that one out.

In Scotland round the back of Loch Ness (I think it was Ness) is a museum that takes you thru a timeline of the land from pists, celts etc to modern day. The history is told in an audiovisual way as you wear earphones. It is the uncut story of colonisation - we could do with such a real gritty exhibit here, never mind old sterile Te Papa

I think there is just a heap of misunderstanding regarding what is meant by 'sovereignty' - tho every Maori has their own take on that. Generally I hear it as being an impassioned declaration of 'let me live my way' and if yours differs don't think the automatic 'correct behavior/view' to prevail should be yours, Mr pakeha.

Many Police still stick by the tradition of not making arrests on Pa in recognition that the arm of Crown law does not technically extend on to Maori land I'm told.

I'm proud my Scots rellys kept a degree of sovereignty with a seperate parliament. The Maori have taken much nonsense in good humour compared to the Irish truth be told, so why do we get so shitty over their request to simply wave about a flag - one which declares their existence???

Its got me buggered. If people think its divisive then why don't we sow it to a Union Jack or whatever flag we currently use then string the bicultural version up. Or put them side by side like girl guides and cub scouts.

This country really needs to grow up. The Maori do not see their desire for sovereignty in the way the basques or Fijiians do from what I can gather. A ph call to Tame Iti could clear any confusion up. Maybe. I note he said "Maori Nation" whereas Turia said "Maori Nations". A gender difference in outlook?

A little piece of little known history. Back in the 80's Durie did a deal. He said that if the Waitangi commission could get powers to deal with land claims, and if restorative justice could be used more (roper report) then the Maori elite lawyer crew would cede any future claim to assert legal sovereignty over their own people. Which till that point there had been legal grounds to appeal!!! Its all recorded in 1980s waitangi commission papers. Hmmm. So thats why justice goes light in this country - even pakeha crims benefited from the lotsa second chances new look.

[Colapop]

'Most' Maori do not have the right to call themselves Maori. They have no more Maori blood in them than I do in me. I am of European decent but I am a New Zealander. I do not claim to have the rights of the EU because my ancestors came from there. What we are talking about here is devisive separatist behaviour - pretty much regardles of race. But it's 'just a flag', a flag that divides people into two groups - those for us or against us. As far as the Union Jack goes, I favour a new New Zealand flag, but it is only part of our flag - our history.

Tell me what sovereignty you are talking about - I'd like your explaination of what it means, not what you've been 'lead to believe' (can't have you being fed a line now can we?)

The dictionary, in fact quite a few of them, describes sovereignty as;
"Supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community."

So you're saying that the those who claim to be Maori do not want to divide the people of this country and rule their own? You say you are Maori but have Scottish ancestry. And before you complain and profess that you have said you are a "Pakeha" (The literal translation is White flea or parasite) you also say that your 'whanau' or family are Maori. Which is it? Do you choose sides depending on the way the wind is blowing? It certainly seems to be the manner of those that "protest in the name of Maoridom". Not at a personal attack but how diluted does a person's heritage have to be before they are considered not to be Maori?

I have a major problem with the likes of Ken Mair who is more 'Pakeha' than me, Tama Iti and all the other shit stirrers who make their living by being professional protesters - they're as bad as John F*cking Minto. I have more 'mana' in my little finger than those c*nts have in their entire being. The police, as I understand it, do arrest those individuals that break the law. They may not do it immediately, such as during a protest where they are greatly outnumbered (wouldn't that be foolish) but they do arrest those people who are willing to break the laws of this land. Whether you agree with then or not. There is a prcess for changing these laws - it's called an election.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Maori culture, language, arts and history. I fully support celebrating it, in fact. But why do we need the Maori All Blacks or the Maori electoral roll? Why don't we fully integrate the cultures of this land and have the Chinese All Blacks, the Dutch electoral roll, and put up place names in Somali, Hindi, Spanish....

You are right, this country does need to grow up. To do that we need to come together as one united group of people striving to do the best we can so that all of us can prosper.

[McJim]

I thought most Maori were descended predominantly from Scotsmen if you check their whakapapa. Can we change it to Scotland day then?

[KLOWN]

i'm with cola on this one. (may his bike come back to one piece)

[R6_kid]

i challenge any maori to go back and live on there pa, with their marae, livestock, and vegetable patches, with taiahas and patu's, with no electricity, television, written language, or constitution, only what nature gave them in some reserve where no one can help them except themselves and their beliefs...

If they can forge their way back to the same level (or better) as modern New Zealand civilisation by themselves, then we can talk about giving them something.

If they really think they are so hard done by due to the pressures that modern society puts on them, then they should just go back to how they used to be and see if they like it. Otherwise get a job and stop living off my taxes simply because the society of my ancestors was more powerful than yours... i know i wouldnt be having a cry, i'd be getting off my ass and proving i am worthy of my place in this society.

[riffer]

I thought most Maori were descended predominantly from Scotsmen if you check their whakapapa. Can we change it to Scotland day then?


Hmmm. Yes. Well I appear to be perpetuating the trend then...

[Qkkid]

:mega: Well said COLAPOP :niceone: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Ixion]

I am technically part Maori. More so than a lot of the protesters. As well as part Scotch, part English, part Spanish. All of those disparate heritages mean something to me. And also mean nothing. What matters is the whole. I cannot pick out one bit of "me" to the exclusion of the rest.

90% and more of the Maoris in the country, you would never realise they are Maori, and they don't think anything of it themselves. Not ashamed of it, just not a big deal. They're just Kiwis, same as everyone else (except the protesters). Sometime in the past a Maori ancestor took a look at what was going on and reckoned that "civilisation" was a GoodThing. Put on a tie and got a job in town. Bought a house, got a mortgage. As my great grandfather did. And so the descendants of those sensible folk are today not "Maori" - and not "non Maori" .

If I have some 91 octane fuel in my tank and I fill it with 95 octane , is it 91? 95? Who knows. Who cares.

The "professional Maoris" are simply those who can't make the cut. Unable to establish an identity for themselves they fall back on a mythical past and a pseudo-identity. The vast majority of Maoris don't need to. They are relaxed and confident in their own identities - as fathers, daughters, wives, partners, truckies, doctors, bikers, golfers, Labour voters, National voters, students, pensioners. Whatever .

The "professional Maoris" have no right to claim to speak for Maori in general. They don't speak for me, the very fact that they claim some sort of independance, in itself proves that they cannot speak for that 90%.

[RT527]

Wot Maori There Aint none left is there?

[candor]

Maybe some do want to divide - that is not good. But others are more moderate yet still support "sovereignty". Their definition is not the dictionary definition. It is the modern definition as it has been evolved to by the U.N, human rights groups, academics and some activists - to be used in the context of 'indigenous rights' debate.

Their definition is based on a pakeha principle - the value of autonomy ='s self determination = right to be masters of ones own/families/wider groups destiny. That is the most common understanding of 'sovereignty' among the Maori I know.

I have seen grown tough gang members cry talking about how precious this is to them. As they do feel they have had as a people and as individuals their essence dominated and squelched out of them. Their right to just be themselves (culturally speaking).

Ones culture is ones humanity. Without culture (sense of identity and of a world that is 'fitting' with your inner experience and conditioned in values) you are feral and a writhing nothing. I began to feel that way living at the pa. It is a cumulative effect when you must struggle to be understood and "seen". When all your values and opinions etc are daily judged as wacky or out there even tho they are just typical ones for your race.

A build up of this difficulty getting validated or seen as relevant can drive you mad.

To my view they are expressing a wish not to be dominated into wearing clothes / attitudes/ values etc that don't fit. Maori eyes do see different than ours - from a different angle on any given situation - I assure you the majority who know their culture are not just models of us except in brown skins. A different species altogether.

My personal definition of sovereignty would be having all the freedom you can to be yourself most fully without causing serious discomfort to others - as an individual and a society. I don't believe countries truly have sovereignty anymore as per dictionary definition.

There are no borders really - much of the big stuff is not dictated by elected govts anymore, they are just mediators and implementers of more powerful international forces. So in that sense I do not believe Maori or "colonists" can really lay any claim to National sovereignty and if a flag is used to represent such a claim thats just deluding ourselves.

No - I'm not Maori, 1800 settler stock thru and thru. But I am a fly on the wall to many Maori "doings" as my late partner was Maori, plus was half raised by an Aunt who married a Maori. As I was living on a very steeped pa once, I learnt basic maori as I wanted to understand what people were on about - hence the nickname they gave the only pakeha at the pa - "nosey pa-keha"
a great joke for kids as it played on "nosey parker." :innocent: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0702/S00009.htm

PS _ I wish to be more like Tame iti cos he is not afraid to make a stand regardless of support level or making a fool of himself, to me he is entertaining and I like it. Apparently he is not "just a protestor" but has mana for doing much good in his community. Ken Mair I'm not so keen on as he just seems bitter and Titewhai can go to hell - she (allegedly)bashed someone I know who was a hospital patient.

[Ixion]

However "sovereignty" be defined (and I am vastly suspicious of those who would play with words), it must needs encompass responsibilities and duties , as well as rights and privileges.

I only ever hear the "professional Maoris" claim the rights and goodies, I never hear of any of them (nowadays, twas different in the past) stepping forward to take up the burdens of responsibility and duty. When I do, then they will gain the right to be listened to.

Go and visit the Goldie paintings of ancient chiefs in the art gallery. Listen to them . Go to Rotorua, to St Faith's church. Listen to the chief whose tomb is outside . Go to any of the volcanos in Auckland, in the quiet of the night. And listen. If you understand what being Maori is you will understand what I mean. And doing so, will see for yourself how far the "professional Maori" fall short of the forebears they prattle about.

[candor]

A strict reading of the treaty signed by N Islanders (diff from that signed by S Islanders who often say they did cede) says from memory;

- full sovereignty remains with the chiefs in all their (retained) lands, forests etc and over whatever is precious to them

A false history has evolved around the translation.

A 16 year old missionaries son who spoke Maori actually did the translation (not the missionary as claimed), and it is questionable whether he may have been a British traitor (loyal to Maori or was told to mistranslate by maori loyal Daddy) or a genuine Maori deceiver.

The UN and international principles of justice require indigenous versions to be upheld if the 2 differ - therein lies the basis of all the commotion.

[Colapop]

I am not a Maori, nor do I pretend to be. I was brought up in a place where Maoridom has more say in most cases than 'Pakeha' sovereignty. I suppose you could say that I have a certain understanding of Maori ways, customs, culture and beliefs - but I am not Maori so I cannot know what it is to be Maori. This is not a debate about Maori's this is about deliberately creating conflict to divide opinion for a psuedo-ideal. The risk of a debate like this is that it does become racial.

one rule - one people

[candor]

"Responsibilities and duties" was what the resource management act was about and why Otaki has degrees in resource management.

So you're saying it's a publicity stunt? Maybe. One law - one people. Then whose law shall it be? In Remuera well after the treaty was signed settlers agreed to be subject to Maori tribal law if they did minor offenses but the deal was Maori who raped or kiled Europeans got settler law. Chiefs agreed to hand them over for this but had they not been in agreement no way would it have happened. This was a considerably better option than Maori law at the time so likely crims were nodding away. Normally they would have run their own systems right up to the occupation at Parihaka but as there was a bit of mixing theRemuera people had a meeting to sort their own wee system out. (Roper report)

[Colapop]

Responsibilities and duties are what parents should have toward their children.

[avgas]

NAZI's for me nazi's for you - ill have some nazi you have some too.
Ownership stuff in this country is bs.
No one owns nothing. Not even the maori.
Its all on long term loan from Satan.

[Ixion]

You miss the point. regardless of treaties and such like - "Maori sovereignty" ? Sovereignty to WHICH Maoris? Me? And the (at least) half million other descendants of those chiefs, who have not the slightest connection or sympathy with those making all the noise.

Or an elitist self appointed group who for the most part have no more right to make any claim than any out of those half million . (The actual figure may be far more) . And have no right to claim to speak for me, or the half million.

So who are these "Maori"? And what right to they have to claim such sovereignty. They cannot rest such a claim on any treaty, for any such treaty rights must devolve to ALL the descendants of the treaty signatories, and those on whose behalf they signed.

I have as much right, and more , to claim to be Maori, as does Ken Muir. And I repudiate absolutely any right he may claim to speak for me or Maoris in general . And I have not the slightest interest in "sovereignty". Nor does the guy across the street, he's Maori too. Or the two dudes I work with, they're more Maori than Ken. Or my mothers neighbour and best friend, she's a Maori princess. Or any of the dozens of Maoris I know, though the fact that they are Maori is completely incidental.

If there is any right anywhere to some "Maori sovereignty" it's a right for US not Ken and his like.

[candor]

Are you sure it's long term. I feel time is speeding up.

Uh huh "Sovereignty to WHICH Maoris?". That is the question. Who rules if this sovereignty is speaking not of individual cultural rights but of desire for a seperate political structure (or rather acknowledgement of what exists).

High born chiefly descendents who may be low life degenerates (or not) in their own areas, the elected, the achievers, those with the biggest mouths or best connections. A suspicious but worthy question.

In traditional society the women wore the pants. Men defended land and women allocated it, which meant men had to keep in the ladies good books. Tohunga pulled the chiefs strings pretty much too.

PS their claim does not just rest on the treaty but other agreements too as I'm sure you know. Contracts were binding on future generations to old time Maori (that was understood and need not be written), who had the looongest memories.

[Colapop]

In traditional Maori society inter-tribal disputes quite often ended in bloodshed. Is that more cultured than the system of governance we have now? The fractured and competitive nature of tribal life means that there is not now and will not be Maori unity towards a system of governance that all Maori agree on. Unless the people who are trying divide this society understand that the future, which includes retention of Maori culture, language etc, is by being part of a community.

[Clivoris]

Here we go...
I believe that New Zealand is the best country in the world, the way it is, right now. I am white. I am Maori. I am Pakeha. I am a New Zealander.


- I don't give a flying fuck about race. I do care about race, but I care more about how people express it through ethnicity

They want to fly their flag from the Auckland harbour bridge on Waitangi day. Who the fuck do they think they are? Why do we need a separate set of rules for one ethnic group in this country?
Who's asking for seperate rules? I thought it was a bunch of people wanting a flag to be flown that they identify with. This simply seems to be asking for something that others can take for granted. How do you think it feels to have to ask for something as harmless as that when there is something called the TREATY OF WAITANGI that the day is meant to celebrate. Nobody has asked for the our New Zealand flag not to be flown.
Oh that's right when the Maori came here they waged a war against the Mori Ori and virtually wiped them out. Ate them didn't they?
No. This is BULLSHIT. Read M Kings Penguin History of NZ. But that's different to the European 'invasion' because the European didn't commit genocide (arguable point - maybe they tried?)
The Penguin History also has much to say about the way this country was settled. Nobody sensible wants to turn back the clock or punish anyone living today, for the crimes of the past. It's what people did to each other. But sometimes it's hard to move on when historic issues aren't named and dealt with.
The point is that we have in NZ a country that is made up of a number of different peoples from different cultures the world over. The country (infrastructure, society, culture) was built from the blood, sweat, & tears of these people. We have a very proud history that encompassess a wide range of cultures and yet we give great respect to the Maori culture - the Haka, Maori place names, and funding for Maori cultural/education programmes. It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country.
I agree with so much of this, but I'm not sure that Maori do get great respect. I happen to have the mixed fortune of being a white Maori. This means that as I go about my life, mostly under-cover, I get to hear what many people "think" about Maori. Much of it doesn't seem respectful. Much of it seems ill-informed and based on fear and lazy thinking. Maori are different to other ethnic groups, but we probably have more in common with each other than differences, but the differences define us. I will feel respected when my kids don't have to spell their names for people writing them down. I will feel respected when most New Zealanders will let me have a powhiri if I want to. Not make me justify it.

One set of rules for one country.
I like this idea. Can they be written in Maori?


Hmmmm....Racial Segragation by Legislation. There's a word for that -
APATHIED!!!
Lazy thinking might have at least the appearance of credibility if you bothered checking your spelling. Take a breath. Nobody wants apartheid.Edit: Fuck how is that word spelt?


I am quite happy to share this beautiful, bountiful country with whoever wants to live here in peace. Does this mean that I can be Maori, or is that a breach of the peace?

[QUOTE=Colapop;919930]'Most' Maori do not have the right to call themselves Maori.
I sincerely hope that you are not telling me that I don't have the right to call myself Maori? I am Maori because I, and three siblings, were raised by my Maori mother. I am Pakeha because of my fathers genes and because in order to succeed in New Zealand you have to be able to do things that Pakeha value and fit in with the modern world. I get that. They have no more Maori blood in them than I do in me.You kinda like being a Viking though don't you? I am of European decent but I am a New Zealander. I do not claim to have the rights of the EU because my ancestors came from there.Did anyone from the EU tell you that you could have the rights of the EU and be a New Zealander? Then change the rules? What we are talking about here is devisive separatist behaviour - pretty much regardles of race. I just don't get this. Men and women are different but can still be together.
The dictionary, in fact quite a few of them, describes sovereignty as;
"Supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community."Nobody would be stupid enough to ask for true sovereignty now, but it was promised. Asking to fly a flag is not asking for sovereignty.

And before you complain and profess that you have said you are a "Pakeha" (The literal translation is White flea or parasite Myth) you also say that your 'whanau' or family are Maori. Which is it? It isn't mutually exclusive. We are all a mix of ethnicities.Do you choose sides depending on the way the wind is blowing? Sometimes. I'm not stupid all the time. It certainly seems to be the manner of those that "protest in the name of Maoridom". Not at a personal attack but how diluted does a person's heritage have to be before they are considered not to be Maori? It isn't all about blood. It's about culture. The best way to find out "what" you are is to go somewhere where you are in the minority.

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Maori culture, language, arts and history. I fully support celebrating it, in fact. But why do we need the Maori All Blacks or the Maori electoral roll? Isn't the fact that many Maori want them enough?Why don't we fully integrate the cultures of this land and have the Chinese All Blacks, the Dutch electoral roll, and put up place names in Somali, Hindi, Spanish....I wonder whose culture should make up the bulk of this blend? This is a strawman argument?

I now have a headache. Thankyou for the oportunity to express this in an environment that is safe. I sincerely hope that I haven't misjudged this.

[Colapop]

Not at all sir. While I would dispute at least half of your rebuttal - I won't right now coz I'm tired and going to bed. I'll try and get back to this later...

[xwhatsit]

Never met a maori. Met a few New Zealanders of maori descent. No maoris though. Met a chinaman the other day. But he was a New Zealander too.

Stick your racsist ideas up your arse - that goes for those of european descent, but it also goes for those of maori descent who want to divide our country on rascist grounds.
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I DON'T CARE WHO YOUR GRANDAD WAS OK !
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`You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to davereid again'

[Ixion]

This whole thing with the flag. The flag they (The "Confederation of Chiefs of the United Tribes of Aotearoa") are talking about is NOT the "Maori flag" It is not a flag that is representative of Maoris.

It is a flag that is representative only of a bunch of diversive opportunists , who have no connection with the 1835 (Pre Treaty) Confederation of Chiefs , a short lived grouping of a limited number of Northern Maori tribes. The original Confederation of Chiefs certainly did NOT include or represent all , or a majority, or even a substantial minority of the Maori of the time. The "Confedertion" broke up in internicine warfare within a few years , and vanished from history until the present group, without any colour of right , usurped the name and flag.

If the present Confederation, or their flag, had any mandate or right to speak for all Maori, or even a majority, then there might be a case for it being flown. They have no such mandate, no right to claim to represent, or speak for or on behalf of Maori, and their claim to have their flag flown alongside the national flag is simply self aggrandisement on their part.

Their is no more reason why that flag should be flown on Waitangi day than why the Kiwibiker flag should be flown. And the "Confederation of Chiefs" have no more mandate to claim to represent Maori than Kiwibiker does .

[bikemike]

As well as part Scotch, part English, part Spanish.


In Scotland round the back of Loch Ness (I think it was Ness) is a museum that takes you thru a timeline of the land from pists, celts etc to modern day. The history is told in an audiovisual way as you wear earphones. It is the uncut story of colonisation - we could do with such a real gritty exhibit here, never mind old sterile Te Papa

Ahem, 'Scotch' is for Whiskey and Eggs. 'Scots' is for folks, and those were Picts not Pists. (Sounds about right for a night on the Buckie though!)

As an incomer of European descent, when asked to note my ethnicity I feel uncomfortable ticking NZ European / Pakeha. I'm European, specifically English. To me, Pakeha seems to say 'not Maori'. As some have alluded to, there is a difference of opinion in the debate that revolves around racial absolutes and ethnic ancenstry. If I were bothered to investigate, perhaps I have Celtic, Viking, Persian or other lines, who knows. Perhaps the fact that I don't much care is that I do retain my sense of belonging, and humanity -- without the need to identify with any particular culture or race. Certainly, half my life spent in Scotland I've experience plenty of prejudice against the English, some directed at me (I was not around 700 years ago, it wasn't me, I won't do it again!) A common complaint against Scottish nationalism is that it is too dependent on being 'not English' and I wonder how that relates to us here? On the one hand, identifying as Pakeha comes across to me to mean not Maori which would suggest distaste or fear, and on the other hand, for many who identify as Maori when that is only part of their ancestry, even a small part, that seems to say not-Pakeha...

Be far better if we all defined ourselves as who we are now, our friends and family, our life.
For me there is no value in personally identifying with any race or ethnicity. I might be well minded to know some history in any case to appreciate what went before, to understand how things became what they are and so on. We should be encouraged to learn those lessons and help improve the lot of everyone equally.

I personally had nothing to do with anything that happened before I was born. It's bloody obvious but too often forgotten.

[35tickets]

I have a major problem with the likes of Ken Mair who is more 'Pakeha' than me, Tama Iti and all the other shit stirrers who make their living by being professional protesters - they're as bad as John F*cking Minto. I have more 'mana' in my little finger than those c*nts have in their entire being. The police, as I understand it, do arrest those individuals that break the law. They may not do it immediately, such as during a protest where they are greatly outnumbered (wouldn't that be foolish) but they do arrest those people who are willing to break the laws of this land. Whether you agree with then or not. There is a prcess for changing these laws - it's called an election..

Couldn't agree more Colapop. This country is going down the toilet with all the shit the maori activists are stirring up. Imagine the uproar in the country if a white supremesist group started getting their face on the 6 oclock news. Ken mair and his buddy Mike Smith should fuck off with their bullshit ideas and I'm fucking darker than they are!

And i thought i had a problem with my swearing. Good to see another individual with a good gutter mouth lol!!!

[Clivoris]

Not at all sir. While I would dispute at least half of your rebuttal - I won't right now coz I'm tired and going to bed. I'll try and get back to this later...

Sweet Col, thanks for that. This stuff pushes emotional buttons for a lot of us New Zealanders, but it has to be talked about. That's the positive of people like Don Brash expressing his opinion at Orewa, or Maori activists wanting a flag. I know that they mostly don't mean to be offensive. I hope this thread doesn't turn into a slagging match for others.

[Finn]

Never met a maori. Met a few New Zealanders of maori descent. No maoris though.

I think they'll all in prison.

[MisterD]

Ahem, 'Scotch' is for Whiskey

Erm, 'Scotch' is for Whisky....the 'e' exists for the Irish and Bourbon relatives.

Anyway, back to the politics.

A bit of a tangent this, but from the whole fuss over Don Brash's "blood quantum" comments, you are apparently Maori if that is how you define yourself (In spite of the fact if Maori rights and benefits are enshrined in law you clearly need a legal definition of "Maori").

So, on that basis, fcuk off with this "Pakeha" word. I am not Pakeha, you do not define me.

[Paul in NZ]

Well for starters - at least we live in a country where these issues can be discussed openly and ideas floated without the secret Police kicking in the door and.... (shit - whats that knocking at the door?)

Seriously...

Last 3 years #3 daughter has been working towards a degree in early childhood etc and she has always had a passion for all things Maori despite being the weediest, whitest kid in her schools Kapa haka group. Over the last 3 years I have acted as proof reader and sounding board for her (and her sister) during our commutes into town. Frankly it's made me a better person (if you think I'm a wanker now you should have seen me then) and because of the little i have gleaned I have improved my reading to some of the 'histories' and other learned works.

I now have the belief that the renaissance in Maori cultural activities stemming from the social upheavals in the 60's / 70's has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened in this country. While 'some' Maori are exploiting the situation for their own personal gain I believe that giving a large part of the population a power base and respect is going to make us all better off. The problem is going to be - where do we stop and where are the boundaries?

I doubt I'm not clever enough to figure that out when presented with an option BUT flying a flag off a bridge seems a pretty small thing. I believe most Maori do see themselves as Kiwis and are proud of it. frankly I'm a little envious of the ethnic background they can tap into while all I have is boofy old motorbikes and... erm.. hang on....

Paul N - Pale - Oily - black handed and proud of it..

[doc]

Here we go...
I believe that New Zealand is the best country in the world, the way it is, right now. I am white. I am Maori. I am Pakeha. I am a New Zealander.
You sad sad puppy you need real help and you ride an Italian bike.I bet the cicarda's are driving you really nuts at the moment.

[Colapop]

Tariana Turia - from the news this morning (Feb brings them all out!!)

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Excuse me but WTF?!? Now 'The Man' (the government) is bringing in immigrants to keep Maori down? Are we building another great railway massa? She needs to get a reality check and stop trying to be a black man. This is the type of person that would lead the Maori people???

[jrandom]

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Well, she's probably right...

I shan't contribute substantially to this discussion; I'd only be me-tooing Ixion.

[Jimmy B]

I always found this interesting given if the original inhabitants of NZ were in fact of non Maori origin how this would effect the Treaty or any claim of ownership by a poeple to settled by conquest. Conspiracy or truth??

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/embargo_saga.html

[Indiana_Jones]

Love it how the national front said if the Maori's get that flag up, they want their flag up too....

they should dump their current one and get for old school. I'll get one ready for them lol


<img src="https://smithsonianimages.si.edu/siphoto/imageservlet/2004-19156.11q.jpg">

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

us-them
us-them
us-them

*yawn*

what mack said. ... *next*

[bull]

Tariana Turia - from the news this morning (Feb brings them all out!!)

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Excuse me but WTF?!? Now 'The Man' (the government) is bringing in immigrants to keep Maori down? Are we building another great railway massa? She needs to get a reality check and stop trying to be a black man. This is the type of person that would lead the Maori people???

Why is it that we decide this part of news has been put across truthfully, we all know the media are full of shit and are about getting stories out there to cause controversy.

Im a maori new zealander, even tho im only part maori. At school we were taught all about the founding of this country in a class called english which was a compulsary class. In turn i had to choose the maori option to get a maori perspective of the same history. Wouldnt it be fantastic if maori was compulsary at school also as then we could head down the right path to a unified New Zealand.

[candor]

Who was here first is a moot point - many maori admit the redheads were here first and trace their ancestry to the group they absorbed.

But this thing about a land being gained by conquest. What! It is so untrue. The crown had no interest in NZ and fought hard the Maoris repeated requests for a treaty and more settlement and outsiders to send someone to control the rabble element.

Unfortunately the property speculators Wakefield clan forced the crowns hand to get an immigration deal sorted as they went against the House of Parliaments negative replies to several requests they had made to export folk and they just went and put damn settlers on their ships regardless.

Diplomats were then sent out to stop a mess from happening as Britain was at the time under fire for bad colonising practise elsewhere (one reason they had been opposed to settling). The result was a the treaty. This allowed settlers to come from 1840 and rule themselves in settler towns while Maori carried on business as usual. There was only a small trickle till around the 1860s from memory.

Then and only then did some extremely bad behaviour crop up as Russell who founded the BNZ to bankroll himself began shit stirring. This resulted in the "wars" which led to some land confiscations - he was the prime bidder at the auctions and once enriched from Waikato the creme de la creme he pissed off to NSW.

Very few people died from combat in these so called "wars" in which a mercenary militia from Oz (not typical settlers conscripted or anything) were often paid with a land parcel- like a couple of hundred total lives lost from memory with more casualties on the pakeha side.

They were not true wars of conquest that took a country. It was more like some flare ups over disputes that were used to justify a couple of major thefts by the settlers governors/govt. People were shunted off their land in some discreet flare ups is all - no great war or V day or anything, just illicit regional land grabs which are the substance of treaty claims.

England was not smiling on this and asked for troops to come home but Governor went against direct orders and persisted bullying at times. No official war - it was terrorism really. Sovereignty was not 'officially' changed hands at this time and the lions share of land (one indicator of who holds sovereignty) remained in Maori hands till ?1900 approx.

But come the 1880s more trouble which had its roots in earlier flare ups and a large influx which did not find the prime land used as carrots to get them out here readily available. They had payed for land upfront which sellers misrepresented as having been bought by them many occasions. Led to a few conflicts andd stand offs. At that point the first maori were imprisoned in the pakeha system - the ones taken from parihaka and put in caves in Dunedin. From that point on Maori slipped in the net of the pakeha system by default and pakeha bully boy tactics.

Effective soverignty transfer or a switch in the balance of power only came about by a gradual process and conquest by battle force was not a part of that at all. Land was mostly stolen by the pen ie Europeans wrote about 170 laws to land strip eg if you don't get all the tribe to do a cartwheel in Wellington and sign their nanas name upside down then that block becomes the Crowns. Similar to how pakeha land can be taken on excuse of public works / roads etc. Such powers were majorly abused but selectively against Maori "Ooh - this town needs a golf course....", then necxt thing council sells golf course for a song to a councillor - get the picture.

Most of the land was not stripped until very late and this went on till the 1960s at a great rate. One thing that stunned me was to see the maps showing progressive loss of land and how late much of this occurred - very recent in fact.

Rubbing their noses in it very much was the conversion of Maori by the pakeha farming breed to a race of indigent labourers. My uncles upbringing was typical - the family of 17 moved about as agricultural seasonal farm labourers, education is disrupted in this lifestyle but that was not sen a impt fopr Maori raised in the 50 / 60s as "they're best with their hands".

The nomadic lifestyle in which tribal links were one constant, the lack of education - the exhaustion of parents who drowned their woes with alcohol,
the cramped conditions leading to incest etc - these stories are the background to European prospering. Took the land by stealth with laws that alienated the owners slowly but steadily then got the prior owners to be cheap labour.

Maori had rights in courts to appeal etc but funnily enough courts were so biased that for example some families were barred from laying commplaints - equal rights - TUI!

The natural outcome was gang networks which started as social 'clubs' but against this background naturally progressed to the negativity, hostility and society undermining business ventures as they too wanted a slice of the cake that many unspoken rules in apartheid racist NZ kept them from accessing.

You say NZ is not apartheid. Then why did the Govt build South Auckland to house factory workers when it needed Labour and simultaneously force poor rural maori out of their home areas by passing more laws in the 1970s that taxed them hard for staying put - and stripped the land they huddled on!

AS BULL SAYS THERE ARE 2 HISTORIES HERE THAT DON'T YET AGREE, I TRY TO NAVIGATE A MIDDLE PATH

[Finn]

All this shit has nothing to do with culture or maori sovereignty. It's about cash and nothing else. It's an industry and a very good one at that. What other industry sits on their arse, contributes nothing and ruins the country while making HUGE profits? Well okay, apart from Telecom then.

[The_Dover]

All this shit has nothing to do with culture or maori sovereignty. It's about cash and nothing else. It's an industry and a very good one at that. What other industry sits on their arse, contributes nothing and ruins the country while making HUGE profits? Well okay, apart from Telecom then.

I could think of another one :whistle:

[Ixion]

..
But come the 1880s more trouble which had its roots in earlier flare ups and a large influx which did not find the prime land used as carrots to get them out here readily available. They had payed for land upfront which sellers misrepresented as having been bought by them many occasions. Led to a few conflicts andd stand offs. At that point the first maori were imprisoned in the pakeha system - the ones taken from parihaka and put in caves in Dunedin. From that point on Maori slipped in the net of the pakeha system by default and pakeha bully boy tactics.
..


Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. No more drafty whare - decent house instead. No more subsistance diet - roast lamb and new potatos instead. Got decent jobs, made heaps of money trading with the gullible white men, sent the kids to school , paid off the mortgage, sent the grandkids to university. There's millions such Kiwis, their ancestors weren't dummies. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

As for "land being stolen by the pen" and "battle having nothing to do with it". What nonsense. 19th Century maoris weren't such wimps. My ancestors fought in those Waikato wars (and the earlier ones up North) , on both sides. And I can tell you for a fact that the Gods of battle decided most of the issues.

The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Well said Colapop. Many ethnic groups, but one nationality.

[ghost]

Very few people died from combat in these so called "wars" in which a mercenary militia from Oz (not typical settlers conscripted or anything) were often paid with a land parcel- like a couple of hundred total lives lost from memory with more casualties on the pakeha side.

They were not true wars of conquest that took a country. It was more like some flare ups over disputes that were used to justify a couple of major thefts by the settlers governors/govt. People were shunted off their land in some discreet flare ups is all - no great war or V day or anything, just illicit regional land grabs which are the substance of treaty claims.

England was not smiling on this and asked for troops to come home but Governor went against direct orders and persisted bullying at times. No official war - it was terrorism really. Sovereignty was not 'officially' changed hands at this time and the lions share of land (one indicator of who holds sovereignty) remained in Maori hands till ?1900 approx.



Come on fella tell the whole truth about the land wars........ It wasnt all about British troops and the goverments Armed Constabulary, most of the fighting in the later stages was done between tribes for and against the goverment of the day. Not to deny wrong doings on either side but there was a lot more to it that just the white settlers against the brown tribes. Some of the best goverment troops (and most persistent) were from the various tribes around the country side, who for their own reasons waged a very effective campain throughout middle and lower north island.

This unfortunatly is slowly being written out of the history of New Zealand. Most people with never know the truth, just some quazi made up corperate money making truth used to extract as much money and shame as possible. Real pity to cos theres some pretty interesting stuff that happened in this little country.....

[The_Dover]

newflash:

you're not getting your fucking land or kumara back, move with the times.

[candor]

Isn't it a mix Ixion.
Acted on by historic forces to a great degree and were also active in playing a role? Do you denty the underclass exists and is largely Maori? So then, a great deal of Maori are not doing great - must be a reason for that. Two choices - inferior or ..... odds have been stacked against. Exceptions to the rule like those doing bloody well can not negate the existence of 'issues' that need looking at.

Ghost I lack in depth knowledge of those battles as things military do not interes me - I'm not a guy! That is just the overview I've gathered.

Finn - you seem unable to analyse any subject outside the parameters of a business and money related perspective. Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

[COP_B8]

As a University student I am continually fighting to get through to limited entry courses which are restricted in entry to ensure only those capable of performing at a high standard are submitted through, last year this was a B+ average mark......unless you are fortunate enough to have a portion of maori in you in which case you can fall into the 10% of students that are automatically submitted through. One of my friends basically put no effort in and said that he did not need to as he could get through under this entry.
If this is not segregation I dont know what is, not only that but if joe public sought the services of a professional (lawyer, doctor etc...) surely they would want to know that they are seeing someone that worked hard to get there and know what they are doing. not someone that scraped through on 50% passes......

I know this is only one example, but my point is that there are so many examples similar to this in which maori are given additional oppurtunities or incentives above non maori. These oppurtunities are created under the heading of assisting maori or correct the wrongs of the past (of which no one that apparently commited these wrongs is still alive today) but only create further division amongst races.

So why is it happening? The Bill of Rights is one of many pieces of legislation that was created with the "Principles of the Treaty" reference in it, The Treaty of Waitangi is pretty much meaningless as a document until it is incorporated into legislation, something which has never been done except by statements like everything within this act must adhere to the principles of the treaty of waitangi. as a result of this a document that was already completely ambiguous has now created many pieces of legislation that have to abide by it, and a certain few of the population now feed on this to profit from it, and New Zealand as a whole has grown so politically correct that no one will stand up to it, for doing so would mean that you are racist.

Sovereignity:
3. Complete independence and self-government.
4. A territory existing as an independent state

Just for the sake of argument :yes: A treaty is an agreement between two sovereign states, The Treaty of Waitaingi was between the English and the Maori, however....at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............

[The_Dover]

Isn't it a mix Ixion.
Acted on by historic forces to a great degree and were also active in playing a role? Do you denty the underclass exists and is largely Maori? So then, a great deal of Maori are not doing great - must be a reason for that.

do you know what a porch monkey is?


Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

can you answer me this please, if you know about kanga roos.

when the legislation which comes in to mean that from next year only those with a certain level of qualification (diploma in early childhood education i think) can work in childcare centres then will this same rule apply to kanga roos? or do the "natives" again get special exemptions?

[Indiana_Jones]

The Maori's were hardly a peace loving race, and were quite happy to come to NZ, crack open the other people's skulls open, then cracked their own skulls for a while. Then a bigger tribe cam along and cracked their skulls around abit.

I just don't see why we all can't just get on with life. It's history. Seeing that I'm British I still want my war reperations from the fucking huns then!, and compinsation from the French, Romans, vikings......

Can't we look forward instead of back?

Edit: I want us to become a republic, then the treaty would be null and viod, that's why the Maori's would never want that to happen

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............

errrr - is that true (open question - I don't know personally..) but if so... the Treaty is an agreement between a nationwide group of disparate leaders (which arguably constitutes Maoridom), and the Queen.

Get Liz over here to sort this...

[MisterD]

Can't we look forward instead of back?


It seems that you can't...it's not the 1980s anymore Indy.

[Indiana_Jones]

It seems that you can't...it's not the 1980s anymore Indy.

yea, but I'm not demanding money from you because of my interest lol

-Indy

[MisterD]

yea, but I'm not demanding money from you because of my interest lol

-Indy

Free 80s film marathon round at Indy's place everyone!

[ghost]

Ghost I lack in depth knowledge of those battles as things military do not interes me - I'm not a guy! That is just the overview I've gathered.



Must have missed my point, its not just about military knowledge or being a guy, its more about the lack of factual history being passed through the generations. Also trying to get the spotlight off the distracting argument of who had conflicts with who but the over all effect of colonisation of this country by europeans, maori, mori ori, celts, phonician....... and who is entilted to what. Where I grew up everyone had access to that same oppurtunities and education, but different people have definately(cant spell) ended up in different parts of the world at various social levels. In my opinion most of todays social issues is less to do with discrimination and more with the welfare system with allows people to sell their morals and ethics (culture?) for a relativly easy life style of low self responsibility..... now we could argue all day about this, but the origional thread is about a flag and my opinion on that one is if they what to fly a flag they should go for the confederate chief flag, but then that one also doesnt repesent all tribes aye.....

[Ixion]

Candor, you're still missing the point. You can't separate out a small stratum of modern society and say "Ohh -- look Maoris! Poor things, they must be discriminated against".

200 odd years ago, yes, there WERE two distinct groups Maoris and Brits. (I hate that pakeha word). Maoris here, Brits over there.

Maoris living a (short) ratshit life of poverty hunger and disease (don't give me that Rosseauian crap about a pre treaty earthly paradise). The way their ancestors had always lived . With no hope of it ever being any better. The Brits living a (short) ratshit life of poverty hunger and disease . But knowing that with a bit of work and technology they could live an immeasurably better life.

But hey, something started happening. Lots of the Maoris (the ones with a bit of sense and gumption), looked at how the Brits did things and said "Hey, this looks a better deal, let's grab some of it, Bugger this grubbing about growing kumeras". So they did. And prospered. And the Brits (enough of them - there were the usual bigots) were happy to go along with this.

And after a hundred years or so, guess what. We don't HAVE two separate groups , Maori and Brits, anymore. We just have one - Kiwis. A bit of Maori, a bit of Brit, some black some white, something from both sides. And the Kiwis whose ancestors were Maoris (which is a lot) don't think it necessary to make a song and dance about that fact. Any more than the ones whose ancestors were Brits. The ones with Maori ancestry remember that and are proud of it. As I am. Just as I'm proud of my Spanish forebears. And the Poms. And the Scotch (don't get me started!).

Yes, we do have an underclass. And people with Maori bloodlines are over represented. That's not cos "the odds are stacked against them" That's Darwinism at work. The Maoris a hundred years ago that had gumption, intelligence and weren't afraid of work, got off their chuffs and left the pa . And turned into Kiwis.

The ones who stayed behind, and kept staying behind for two hundred years were the losers. And now, surprisingly, gee, the losers are overrepresented in the "underclass". Why aren't there more Brits in the Underclass? Obvious - because the Brit losers never got here. It look gumption , courage , intelligence and work ethic for a Brit 200 years ago to get off his chuff, get on a ship and head out to a new life at the other end of the world. The losers didn't. They stayed home. Just as it took gumption , courage , intelligence and work ethic for a Maori 200 years ago to get off his chuff, get off the marae and head out to a new life in a different world. The losers didn't . They stayed behind. So the Maori losers end up in Otara. The Brit losers are still back in Pomgolia.

BTW , the process is still happening. The losers ended up in Otara. But sometimes the kids have what the parents didn't. They get out of Otara. Or at least make sure THEIR kids get the education, the job, and get out. If we REALLY want to eliminate that underclass , that's what needs doing. make it easier for the ones who have got what it takes to get out (and mostly, ALL it takes is the determination to do so) .

There is NOTHING makes me madder than seeing parents stuck in Otara, or wherever, in the "underclass", who want their kids to have a better life, and really care about it, being knocked back by the system at every turn. Untill they give up in dispair, the kids buy a tube of glue and start wagging school, and the cycle perpetuates itself. It's not the wicked white man the Maoris in the underclass need protecting from , its their own mates who want to drag them down.

I know parents (of ALL ethnicities) slogging their guts out in ghastly vile jobs for totally contemptable wages, working every hour that God sends , just so their kids will get out. They don't need a lot of patronising shit about it all being "the fault of the system " or "the odds being stacked against them". What they NEED are decent schools, where their kids get a proper education, decent policing, decent transport, decent jobs at decent wages.

[COP_B8]

errrr - is that true (open question - I don't know personally..) but if so... the Treaty is an agreement between a nationwide group of disparate leaders (which arguably constitutes Maoridom), and the Queen.

Get Liz over here to sort this...

There was no national sovereignity pre 1840 as far as I am aware, It was one of Busby's "achievements", [whom was the first European appointed resident of New Zealand], to initiate the creation of a collective Maori Sovereignity, this however failed as it was only amongst the Northern tribes and the decleration that was signed regarding this was not adhered too.

Treaty: an agreement between two states
State: The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity

[bistard]

Well said Ixion
I have just been reading this whole thread & its bloody good to see there are like minded people in this country,that arnt into the "them & us "
Lets get on with things as one country
Why cant we get all of this through to the people in power & stop the raping of this country
By the way Its New Zealand not Aoetearoa
I am a Kiwi not a Pakeha

[Deano]

Transit will reportedly prosecute any flag fliers on the bridge as it's not legal...............Yeah Right.

False threat more like it.

[KLOWN]

Why is it that we decide this part of news has been put across truthfully, we all know the media are full of shit and are about getting stories out there to cause controversy.

Im a maori new zealander, even tho im only part maori. At school we were taught all about the founding of this country in a class called english which was a compulsary class. In turn i had to choose the maori option to get a maori perspective of the same history. Wouldnt it be fantastic if maori was compulsary at school also as then we could head down the right path to a unified New Zealand.

history was a compulsary subject for me and they focused on the treaty of waitangi and maori history.

[Finn]

Finn - you seem unable to analyse any subject outside the parameters of a business and money related perspective. Tell me - how are kohanga reo about making money? So... if the treaty industry is about money (I know it is about greed along with reparation for some individuals too) are you happy that capitalist values have been so well absorbed by the natives then?

Capitalism is about W-O-R-K-I-N-G for money. Enough about me, tell us about yourself. Which category do you fall under:

A) Work for the Government
B) Have maori blood
C) On a benefit or,
D) Have long hair a wear sandals

Sorry, I forgot one more category...

F) Spent over 5 years at University

[mstriumph]

Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. .................................. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

...........................................
The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.

This is a great thread

Reading it, it occurs to me that, in many of the posts, you could just substitute the word 'Aborigine' for 'Maori' and you would have a fair representation of the situation here in Aus.

The factions are similar, too - the 'industry adherants', whingers, stirrers, apologists and placators on one side ----- small in numbers, comparitively speaking, but big on noise ....... and the sane, sensible, but unfortunately mostly silent, majority [of ALL racial heritages] on the other .....

Good to see that, in this thread at least, that majority is airing its views and stating its position.

To add my voice to the mix, i believe the yardstick for an action on this scale should be "is it potentially divisive?" - and, if it is, perhaps it would best to reconsider.

[candor]

All you say is true Ixion. Good post. I know a girl (now 20ish) of East Tamaki.
When she was 9 I went to stay in her criminal alcoholic household with perhaps 1 good parental role model. Dad was an absent druggy and step dad a pisshead - all night parties half the week. Hard enough to sleep in that house and the noise would make homework tricky for a kid.

At school she complained it was hard to learn as kids threw desks at teachers a lot and many scraps etc. She used to get asked to join gangs ie wear colours etc as she walked home always in carefully selected non colours.

She would say with a cheesy grin "Thankyou! But I'm afraid that will never be possible for me as I want to be a scholar, and I will never be able to get distracted from that". Her 2 brothers are in jail and her sister is a solo-mum to 3 with different fathers.

I did not think this girl ever had a chance and wondered for years - gettingg reports back thru grapevine every few. She has just completed a double degree in languages and I think political science. And is a top multicultural performer - she loves all island dancing coming from S akld.

She is plotting a diplomatic career as she has a passion for communicatrion and learning about other cultures. She is one of four kids and prolly the only one in a couple of mile radius of kids that grew up there to make it.

I saw another one like her in Huntly. A girl from the bronx going places. But it took something exceptional from within these people. Most people are very shaped by their environment - be it a successful family background or not.

I still say a long history of discrimination has impacted the average Maori who chose to stick with and hold to the traditional way as much as possible. You have to respect that choice as if it wasn't for those ones who did not try becoming Kiwi and either sink or swim then the urban Maori would have found no place to turn - when they went looking to re-find their culture during and since the renaissance.

Some people who stuck by the Pa have done OK as well. Prison head counts show great over representation of tribesmen from those who had land confiscated and tribes which clung to the Pa base. Remarkably low numbers of people citing Ngai Tahu in there.

[LilSel]

Havent read this whole thread...
However... this is what is being discussed in the office as I type... its crazy... always right before waitangi day... people argue bout it... become divided... its all I can hear... blah blah blah!!! happened a few months ago too... they started talking bout treaty... I knew what would happen... so I did the 'STOP RIGHT THERE.... talk about it after work plz... we all know what happens when this topic comes up...!! and thankfully... it did stop there for the day...

I wasnt in yesterday however and a colleague (part maori) yesterday called pretty much everyone in the office 2nd class citizens cuz of having no maori blood.... omg... talk about stirring shit up!!!....our boss is english... we have pay reviews in the next two weeks.... I think someone might've just shot themself in the foot lol... :shutup: its madness.... they still going on about it now.... 20mins later (typed half post then had to do somethin lol)

EDIT:.... crazy.....

[T.I.E]

but let everyone fly a flag too. all nations including the KB flag.

im a kiwi. not a european,or maori. but i respect both cultures. history has happened.

[The_Dover]

All you say is true Ixion. Good post. I know a girl (now 20ish) of East Tamaki.
When she was 9 I went to stay in her criminal alcoholic household with perhaps 1 good parental role model. Dad was an absent druggy and step dad a pisshead - all night parties half the week. Hard enough to sleep in that house and the noise would make homework tricky for a kid.

At school she complained it was hard to learn as kids threw desks at teachers a lot and many scraps etc. She used to get asked to join gangs ie wear colours etc as she walked home always in carefully selected non colours.

She would say with a cheesy grin "Thankyou! But I'm afraid that will never be possible for me as I want to be a scholar, and I will never be able to get distracted from that". Her 2 brothers are in jail and her sister is a solo-mum to 3 with different fathers.

I did not think this girl ever had a chance and wondered for years - gettingg reports back thru grapevine every few. She has just completed a double degree in languages and I think political science. And is a top multicultural performer - she loves all island dancing coming from S akld.

She is plotting a diplomatic career as she has a passion for communicatrion and learning about other cultures. She is one of four kids and prolly the only one in a couple of mile radius of kids that grew up there to make it.

I saw another one like her in Huntly. A girl from the bronx going places. But it took something exceptional from within these people. Most people are very shaped by their environment - be it a successful family background or not.

I still say a long history of discrimination has impacted the average Maori who chose to stick with and hold to the traditional way as much as possible. You have to respect that choice as if it wasn't for those ones who did not try becoming Kiwi and either sink or swim then the urban Maori would have found no place to turn - when they went looking to re-find their culture during and since the renaissance.

Some people who stuck by the Pa have done OK as well. Prison head counts show great over representation of tribesmen from those who had land confiscated and tribes which clung to the Pa base. Remarkably low numbers of people citing Ngai Tahu in there.

Obviously a politician or gubmint employee then.

Skirting questions and garnishing propaganda.

Do you think there aren't white kids in the same sort of situation?

[candor]

Capitalism is about W-O-R-K-I-N-G for money. Enough about me, tell us about yourself. Which category do you fall under:

A) Work for the Government WORK AGAINST GOVT TO BEST OF ABILITY
B) Have maori blood NO - BUT IS THAT A DISCREDITOR OR BAD?
C) On a benefit or, STUDYING AND WORK PART TIME
D) Have long hair a wear sandals I HATE HIPPYS, THEY'RE CONTROL FRKS
F) Spent over 5 years at University 3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

Dover - you'd best write to the Min of Education regarding your concerns. No I don't think there aren't white kids in that boat - just far less frequently, its not useful to focus attention away from where the main play is.

[avgas]

I like this idea. Can they be written in Maori?

Then you would have to find someone who can read

[avgas]

Here is a racist idea:
how come they are allowed to call us 'pakeha' on every form i fill in - but i cant call them brownies?
Same thing really - a word that they only understand for me. Like naming your neighbors dog 'Rhubarb'.
Fucking insulting really.

[The_Dover]

3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

Dover - you'd best write to the Min of Education regarding your concerns.


Bloody nurses spouting academic theory and ethical bullshit. Fuck, no wonder the health system is so fucked up. Can't they just train you to clean bed pans and train dressings like the good old days??

You sound like my fuckin mother, she's a nurse with about 20 degrees and thinks she's saving the fucking world and believes all the socio-academia crappolla, yet she failed to look after and raise her own three kids.

They're not my concerns, I couldn't give a fuck if the next generation of porch monkeys are taught by under qualified culturally aware tree hugging butt fuckers. Just don't whine to me about being disadvanted cos the trainee dole bludgers can't fuckin read or write in engrish.

[avgas]

F) Spent over 5 years at University
FYI if your parents earn too much - and you have left home.....this idea COST's you money.
Its not all rosey outside your little box. Only for those that rip the system.

[eliot-ness]

After spending the last hour reading through all the posts I've come to realise just how isolated New Zealand is. No one seems to have recognised the pattern that repeats itself wherever Europeans have settled throughout the world. America and Canada, native tribes subjugated by force originally then supplied with cash and alchohol to keep them quiet while the white man took over. Australia, the same. South America, genocide to start with then alchohol and drugs. Africa, military force, alchohol. NZ, cash, alchohol. China in the 19th century, opium. India already had a flourishing cast system so no opiates were needed, just a generous handout to the local Sultans.
With the exception of China and India all these countries have inherited the same problems as New Zealand. Also, without exception in all of these countries those of European descent put the blame squarely on the lazy, indolent natives who refuse to see what's good for them and won't get off their backsides and work. The idea of handouts to appease the native population isn't new. I found a reference to it in a newspaper report from the 1860s. A Thames resident at the height of the gold rush complained that the Maori were being paid by the government to sit in the pubs drinking and causing trouble.
This is by no means confined to far flung outposts of the empire. The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.

[Crisis management]

They're not my concerns, I couldn't give a fuck if the next generation of porch monkeys are taught by under qualified culturally aware tree hugging butt fuckers. Just don't whine to me about being disadvanted cos the trainee dole bludgers can't fuckin read or write in engrish.

Oops...obviously not the group hug thread:innocent:


Theres a degree of schizoid behaviour around today..

[The_Dover]

After spending the last hour reading through all the posts I've come to realise just how isolated New Zealand is. No one seems to have recognised the pattern that repeats itself wherever Europeans have settled throughout the world. America and Canada, native tribes subjugated by force originally then supplied with cash and alchohol to keep them quiet while the white man took over. Australia, the same. South America, genocide to start with then alchohol and drugs. Africa, military force, alchohol. NZ, cash, alchohol. China in the 19th century, opium. India already had a flourishing cast system so no opiates were needed, just a generous handout to the local Sultans.
With the exception of China and India all these countries have inherited the same problems as New Zealand. Also, without exception in all of these countries those of European descent put the blame squarely on the lazy, indolent natives who refuse to see what's good for them and won't get off their backsides and work. The idea of handouts to appease the native population isn't new. I found a reference to it in a newspaper report from the 1860s. A Thames resident at the height of the gold rush complained that the Maori were being paid by the government to sit in the pubs drinking and causing trouble.
This is by no means confined to far flung outposts of the empire. The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.

what's your point old man river?

[James Deuce]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.

Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can't really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZCPL/Files/Occ%20papers/JWilliams%20web%20paper.pdf

stop happening.

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/eunuchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and perverted Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.

Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.

[Finn]

3 AT TECH, 2 AT UNI

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory, and have had regular racist deprogramming courses compulsorily courtesy of employers or further education vcourses on about a yearly basis since graduating = about 10x.

At our 3 day hui I'm proud to say I was one of very few out of 160 that did not feel guilty, overwhealmed or start blubbing after getting forced to listen to marathon speeeches about discrimination. One thing I did find objectionable
in all the things learnt was that reo schools had as part of their charter political indoctrination of kids re the sovereignty issue. But I guess that is no diff to the indoctrination of standard western thinking that occurs in mainstream ed.

What the fuck has all that shit got to do with wiping peoples bottoms? No wonder our health system is 3rd world.

Talking of those "hate the white man" schools, theres one off Ponsonby Road in Auckland. I parked outside one once and heard this screaming. It was this "teacher" yelling "You fucking stupid idiot", she picked up this little boy by his arm and threw him into the corner. I called the cops but theres no fine for that so nothing happened.

[Finn]

FYI if your parents earn too much - and you have left home.....this idea COST's you money.
Its not all rosey outside your little box. Only for those that rip the system.

Like maoris you mean?

[Paul in NZ]

Usual mix of supurbly argued cases with the supidly argued duffle bags.

I guess we all have a point of view BUT I respect anyone that has the balls to adopt a lifestyle that brings them personal satisfaction and achievement without depriving others of the same. Sending your child to a maori language Immersion school is not a soft or easy choise. It requires sacrifice and effort above the norm.

As motorcyclist we expect society to respect our individual choice of transport and to make allowance for it when it makes little logical sense and we are certainly a minority. You would think that another group, making a minority stand would be worthy of our patient attention.

OK - Maoridom has a few nutters that make a lot of noise and get into the newspapers but than no more represent the views of the greater population than does Mikeys views on roadsafety represent the views of most Motorcyclists (not dissing you Mikey, just hijacking your persona)....

[candor]

Can't they just train you to clean bed pans and train dressings like the good old days??
.
That was not what happened in the good old days. Nurses have always been politically and socially active - you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'. The health system is not screwed because of nurses but due to lack of resourcing. So your Mum (1 person) has apparently proved she could not juggle home and career and is not superwoman - how does that discredit 'nursing' or its current role/contribution in society per se?

You'd not be the only one in that boat either. Used to be that kids grew up not knowing hard working dads, now they cop it both ways often enough.

[The_Dover]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.

Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZCPL/Files/Occ%20papers/JWilliams%20web%20paper.pdf

stop happening.

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/eunuchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.

Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will not help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.

How the fuck does pandering to one group of people whose "forefathers" may have been exploited (they certainly haven't) and creating a mixed class society where one ethnic/cultural/gang group have more rights than the majority make for a better society?

We've got too many wanker academics sitting writing bullshit papers, referencing other papers (that in turn reference other academic ideollogical wankery) and philosiphising from their priviliged position of getting paid to sit and think up this bullshit and study society as a whole and not enough people who just want to get on with it an not delve deeply into a load of old crap that can't be changed.

One rule for all. I don't give a fuck who or where you came from socially, culturally or geographically.

Live and let fucking live, don't force your culture on me or anyone else, don't expect everyone to appreciate the origins of whoever or whatever. Some people just don't give a fuck. Fine if you do.

Equality for all. Except wimmin.


Usual mix of supurbly argued cases with the supidly argued duffle bags.

I guess we all have a point of view BUT I respect anyone that has the balls to adopt a lifestyle that brings them personal satisfaction and achievement without depriving others of the same. Sending your child to a maori language Immersion school is not a soft or easy choise. It requires sacrifice and effort above the norm.

As motorcyclist we expect society to respect our individual choice of transport and to make allowance for it when it makes little logical sense and we are certainly a minority. You would think that another group, making a minority stand would be worthy of our patient attention.

OK - Maoridom has a few nutters that make a lot of noise and get into the newspapers but than no more represent the views of the greater population than does Mikeys views on roadsafety represent the views of most Motorcyclists (not dissing you Mikey, just hijacking your persona)....

Who are you calling a duffle bag?

This has squat all to do with motorcycle (bar being on KB).

We don't want to force everyone else to ride a motorbike or expect special rules and privileges for motorcyclists. Ok we talk about it, but realistically.

I respect the choice to send your kids to a Maori language kindie, whatever, but I don't necessarily think it's gonna get them ahead in the modern world. Everyone should want the best for their kids but there are some selfish parents who put their wants, beliefs and culture before the realism of what a kid really needs to get ahead in life.

Coherent enough?

[davereid]

Edit: I want us to become a republic, then the treaty would be null and viod, that's why the Maori's would never want that to happen
-Indy

The Treaty is already null and void. It was between some Maori and the British Crown. It ended when we obtained independence from the brits.

Don't believe me ?

Try fronting up at Heathrow waving your NZ passport, and the part of the treaty that says you have "The Rights and Privileges of British Subjects"

"Sorry buddy - go stand in the Aliens Queue, with the Iranians" would be the outcome.

The treaty died years ago, when we formed our own nation. RIP.

[The_Dover]

That was not what happened in the good old days. Nurses have always been politically and socially active - you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'. The health system is not screwed because of nurses but due to lack of resourcing. So your Mum (1 person) has apparently proved she could not juggle home and career and is not superwoman - how does that discredit 'nursing' or its current role/contribution in society per se?

You'd not be the only one in that boat either. Used to be that kids grew up not knowing hard working dads, now they cop it both ways often enough.

It wasn't that she couldn't juggle a career and home. But my father managed to, on his own.

That's the sort of insight I have into those who see fit to worry about the academics and bullshit of society and try and right the wrongs of the past, instead of just getting on with the job at hand and letting others be.

I know who is the better person and contributes more to society as a whole too.

[James Deuce]

Equality for all. Except wimmin.




Ha ha. N00b. That's what I said. You should read stuff before dissing, you silly Englishman.

[Macktheknife]

Err, the largest Mori Ori population in NZ was in the Chathams (Rekohu) and the British helped Taranaki Maori enslave that population in exchange for land. I think you'll find that Mori Ori were not unrelated to Maori either.
Surely that should be the largest surviving population as they were systematically slaughtered around the country by the Maoris.
Just to add some flame to the fire, issues of Maori sovereignty can't really be resolved until things like this:

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/law/Centres/NZCPL/Files/Occ%20papers/JWilliams%20web%20paper.pdf

stop happening.
What exactly are you referring to? The court? The Lecture? Or perhaps educated Maoris with an opinion?

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:

http://www.transgenderzone.com/features/eunuchadmiral.htm

was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.
Ask the Waitaha.... they were here long before the Maori, living peacefully. And they have specific legends and stories of white people living here when they arrived in the 2nd century.

Say what you want, the fact that Maori have been exploited is undeniable. We've failed signally to develop a NZ culture that embraces the origins of the people that live here, and I think it is justifiable that Maori continue to present a case for the rest of us applying some value to their culture. It should be our culture too.
Oh come on, you don't really expect us to divest ourselves of our own culture to take on that of the Maori!

Busby perverted the intention of the Treaty of Waitangi so the NZ company would make money selling forest to Norwegian farmers, and perverted Hobson's fairly naive (but what breathtaking naivety at a time when other native peoples were being butchered in the 10s of thousands) desire to develop a partnership with Maori.
This part may be correct but again, not completely. Hobson genuinely believed that this partnership was the spirit of the treaty.

Getting angry is precisely what the proponents of Tino rangatiratanga want you to do. It makes you look like a raving redneck racist and fuels the fire that will result in a (more) divisive NZ society.
An excellent point! Do a little research for yourselves and discover the history of NZ is much greater and far longer than the Maori activists would have you believe.
Dialogue, not hate speech or worse, apathy, and especially not ignorance, will help the situation. Read Michael King and James Belich to gain a perspective of both sides of the argument.
Again a good point, but if you are going to look into the history do it properly. The Waitaha and others were in NZ for more than 1000 years before the Maori arrived and began slaughtering those who did not agree with them. There is evidence of early civilisations up to 150,000 years ago in NZ, and most likely Celtic origins.
The claim of Maori being the 'indigenous people of the land' is false and nothing remotely similar to that of the Aborigines who have been in residence for around 40,000-70,000 years. I am sick of the deliberate misrepresentation of history to suit activists ends, all it takes is 30 seconds to search Google for 'pre-maori' history in NZ, mountains of information and research. Try it.

[The_Dover]

Ha ha. N00b. That's what I said. You should read stuff before dissing, you silly Englishman.

Watch it baldie, before I send Finn down to bit yer knees.

You told us to go read books and embrace mowri culchur.

Fuck that.

[Clockwork]

......- you can't treat illness in isolation from addressing living or system conditions that contribute, that is 'working dumb'.

This I don't get. When did society ask for Nurses to treat anything other than the physical manifestations of the sick. Who decided that Nuses should now be Social Workers?

[MisterD]

The northern counties of England were, from the beginning of the industrial revolution, low paid, high unemployment areas where minimum educational standards were the norm. Schools existed only to turn out factory fodder. people who would work for a subsistance wage without complaning. When, through the unions, they did start to make themselves heard they were labelled as communists and reviled by their better off brethren in the south. A form of racism and class discrimination against their own countrymen. Not unlike the present situation in NZ.


Can we keep to arguing about NZ history and not bring distorted sweeping incorrect renderings of UK history into this already muddy puddle?

[terbang]

Then there's another theory beginning to surface that Maori and MoriOri are genetically exactly the same as the Native Taiwanese, and the language similarities are startling. On the back of that theory the Taiwanese came under significant persecution around the time this guy:
(The Castrated Chinese Guy)
was mapping his way across the world, so maybe the diaspora that resulted in Maori and MoriOri settling in NZ took place later than thought and over a much shorter period of time.

Who the hell knows.


I am no expert on the pacific's colonisation but when I left Indonesia with a head full of their language I worked in both Majuro and Tonga for short periods. I was very surprised that I could understand a fair bit that was being said and there were a lot of similarities between the languages.
I figure it has something with the way the earth rotates and therefore the way the wind prevails. They didn't have motor boats back then. Having navigated across the pacific many times myself I can assure you that it is easier and quicker eastbound.

[Deano]

I am a graduate of cultural safety training in my Nursing degree which involved 400 hours of our ?2000 hours theory,

How can you always be 'culturally safe' without at times compromising your own culture ?

My sociology lecturer (sorry it was only about 90 hours) felt cultural safety was a crock.

[Indiana_Jones]

The Treaty is already null and void. It was between some Maori and the British Crown. It ended when we obtained independence from the brits.

Don't believe me ?

Try fronting up at Heathrow waving your NZ passport, and the part of the treaty that says you have "The Rights and Privileges of British Subjects"

"Sorry buddy - go stand in the Aliens Queue, with the Iranians" would be the outcome.

The treaty died years ago, when we formed our own nation. RIP.

Other way round for me, I have to go through the aliens when i get into NZ, and get to go through the Citizen que in the UK.

Really need to get that NZ citizenship lol

-Indy

[candor]

This I don't get. When did society ask for Nurses to treat anything other than the physical manifestations of the sick. Who decided that Nurses should now be Social Workers?
You'll get nowhere by JUST treating the physical manifestations, in many cases that will just increase health epidemics eg attention seekers. The history of nursing is long but if you're interested...

Witches.... politically active, used range of potions and counselling
Victorian prostitutes (took rich dying old men home)...
Florence Nightingale (made what the hookers did respectable tho had trouble recruiting 'nice girls' to do such stigmatised work initially)... very socially and politically active like advocated for hygeine / ventilated facilities, health education and health promotion
Nurse Maude - took nursing here in NZ out of the hospital on her bicycle
Diabetes nurses - educate about diet eg in fat communities
Psyc nurses - work on changing cultural beliefs that contribute to suicide and removing stigma so patients will not suffer sticks and stones atop illness which can exacerbate illness eg cause them not to take medicine, back to hosp!
Nurse prescribers - see selves as regaining the prescribing role Drs stole from them in Victorian era
Voluntary nurses abroad - may advocate to effect the politics making people starve or not get medicines if they are a prime cause of illness etc

As I hope you see to talk of nurses as mere wound dressers is very narrow - caregivers can do that, nurses are expected to have a lot more nous and ability to see what needs fixin' (in whatever area) to get the result.

Re 'cultural safety' comment - yes,its a trade off. But one needed less and less as those who wanted it (Maori) have taken over their own services now making all the focus on that in our training somewhat wasted - it was back then identified as transitional anyway. Despite how extreme it was the general principles have now beeen adopted by nursing education courses all over the world. The main promoter of it Irahapeti Ramsden died of cancer a lil while ago. Deano - tell your sociology lecturer to tell that to rellys of patients killed by culturally unsafe staff please - example; a very old gran in hospital stopped eating and talking (whakama state) which caused her death. It was eventually established that a full urine pottle had been placed momentarily on her food table. That happening and then not getting resolved properly is why she died. For an old traditional Maori this event was somewhat akin to rape.

[The_Dover]

You'll get nowhere by JUST treating the physical manifestations, in many cases that will just increase health epidemics eg attention seekers. The history of nursing is long but if you're interested...

Witches.... politically active, used range of potions and counselling
Victorian prostitutes (took rich dying old men home)...
Florence Nightingale (made what the hookers did respectable tho had trouble recruiting 'nice girls' to do such stigmatised work initially)... very socially and politically active like advocated for hygeine / ventilated facilities, health education and health promotion
Nurse Maude - took nursing here in NZ out of the hospital on her bicycle
Diabetes nurses - educate about diet eg in fat communities
Psyc nurses - work on changing cultural beliefs that contribute to suicide and removing stigma so patients will not suffer sticks and stones atop illness which can exacerbate illness eg cause them not to take medicine, back to hosp!
Nurse prescribers - see selves as regaining the prescribing role Drs stole from them in Victorian era
Voluntary nurses abroad - may advocate to effect the politics making people starve or not get medicines if they are a prime cause of illness etc

As I hope you see to talk of nurses as mere wound dressers is very narrow - caregivers can do that, nurses are expected to have a lot more nous and ability to see what needs fixin' (in whatever area) to get the result.

Re 'cultural safety' comment - yes,its a trade off. But one needed less and less as those who wanted it (Maori) have taken over their own services now making all the focus on that in our training somewhat wasted - it was back then identified as transitional anyway. Despite how extreme it was the general principles have now beeen adopted by nursing education courses all over the world. The main promoter of it Irahapeti Ramsden died of cancer a lil while ago. Deano - tell your sociology lecturer to tell that to rellys of patients killed by culturally unsafe staff please - example; a very old gran in hospital stopped eating and talking (whakama state) which caused her death. It was eventually established that a full urine pottle had been placed momentarily on her food table. That happening and then not getting resolved properly is why she died. For an old traditional Maori this event was somewhat akin to rape.

just do the bed pan and shut your yap florence.

[candor]

"just do the bed pan and shut your yap florence". Its good to be so quotable. Oooooooooohhhhhh, I wondered when the real Dover was making a comeback - with that amount of cheek in him 'is recordings must be just fine.
The last person who tried snappy domination like that was a springable queen

[Macktheknife]

Back on topic folks, this thread is about so called Maori sovereignty claims.

[MSTRS]

... the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary...

Of course it doesn't. Here. Go to Aussie and what do you find? Hardworking, successful individuals who have some Maori ancestry.
Maori 'sovereignty' is pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic, divisive.
It's time that pollies stopped vote-buying politics that empower these activists.
Bring on the Republic and a Bill of Rights, based on citizenship, not ancestry.

[mstriumph]

but let everyone fly a flag too. all nations including the KB flag.

im a kiwi. not a european,or maori. but i respect both cultures. history has happened.

and i'm an adopted kiwi .......... with ancestry sooooo mixed that, if you name it, i've probably got some

to try and separate 'me' into my component parts is futile, pointless and faaaaaaar too self-involved [read 'head up own arse-ish] to be bothered with

I AM what i am, where i am, how i am .... to consider it any other way would be akin to suing for independance for my left kneecap - daft!



psssssssst - do us KiwiBikers HAVE a flag? ..... can we fly it from the bridge? .... can we? huh?? ......can we? perleasssssse????:dodge:

[RT527]

I respect the treaty....I Treaty you the same as I treaty every one else.....

[Clivoris]

Cool thread. Spinning my head a bit cos it's such a complex issue and I am struggling not to have a fear/anger driven response to some of the posts that I disagree with. So much of what we are debating involves dubious history and facts, differences in personal experience and the vagueries of language. We neeed to talk about this and I don't believe that it's divisive. It is not divisive to disagree, or do something in a different way. That's what makes family, and motorcycling interesting. One of the things I strongly believe, is that most of the people posting here (on the site even), I would probably get on with face to face. Apart from that prick bistard:laugh: , and I'm definitely stealing Maurice away from the_dover. I hear Maurice wishes he had a bit of Maori in him. The stuff we are talking about here has fuck all relevance to what happens at the coal face. If people are respectful to us, we are respectful to them. This debate is still important though.


I now have the belief that the renaissance in Maori cultural activities stemming from the social upheavals in the 60's / 70's has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened in this country. While 'some' Maori are exploiting the situation for their own personal gain I believe that giving a large part of the population a power base and respect is going to make us all better off. The problem is going to be - where do we stop and where are the boundaries?

I doubt I'm not clever enough to figure that out when presented with an option BUT flying a flag off a bridge seems a pretty small thing. I believe most Maori do see themselves as Kiwis and are proud of it. frankly I'm a little envious of the ethnic background they can tap into while all I have is boofy old motorbikes and... erm.. hang on....

Paul N - Pale - Oily - black handed and proud of it..
I so agree with this.

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Definitely sounds paranoid, but it got some good media coverage for her eh:yes: .

Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. No more drafty whare - decent house instead. No more subsistance diet - roast lamb and new potatos instead. Got decent jobs, made heaps of money trading with the gullible white men, sent the kids to school , paid off the mortgage, sent the grandkids to university. There's millions such Kiwis, their ancestors weren't dummies. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.
Great truth in there mate. It's the nature of the bell curve that some people will succeed. I'm fortunate enough to come from Ngati Porou where many whanau prioritised education. They could see the writing on the wall. My experience has still been that it is harder to succeed. Others might minimise this but I had to compromise a lot of my values to succeed. No regrets either, but some of my classmates and colleagues had less to compromise because our environment and the ideas we were working with, fit them better. They still had to work bloody hard though.
It's true that if someone works hard enough they will succeed, but it can't be true that we can all succeed. It's a competition and at the pointy end, those with a small edge have a big advantage. I still believe that there were deliberate efforts to push succesful Maori out of enterprises like coastal shipping. It is taking Maori time to get competitive, but it's happening. It's good for all of us.

newflash:

you're not getting your fucking land or kumara back, move with the times.
Can I keep the P lab?

As a University student I am continually fighting to get through to limited entry courses which are restricted in entry to ensure only those capable of performing at a high standard are submitted through, last year this was a B+ average mark......unless you are fortunate enough to have a portion of maori in you in which case you can fall into the 10% of students that are automatically submitted through. One of my friends basically put no effort in and said that he did not need to as he could get through under this entry.
If this is not segregation I dont know what is, not only that but if joe public sought the services of a professional (lawyer, doctor etc...) surely they would want to know that they are seeing someone that worked hard to get there and know what they are doing. not someone that scraped through on 50% passes......
Glad to hear you're getting through. I'm suprised that this is still happening, but I admit to a bias and agreement with this for the reason I outlined above. It is harder for Maori to compete. People that rort this are taking the piss and aren't doing others any favours. He's lucky your still his friend. I don't know what qualification you are working toward but in my trade (mental health) there is evidence that Maori achieve better outcomes when matched with a Maori professional. I didn't get in under a quota but the idea has appeal for me.

Just for the sake of argument :yes: A treaty is an agreement between two sovereign states, The Treaty of Waitaingi was between the English and the Maori, however....at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............
Conquest by stealth or a kick in the nuts still results in a bunch of people that start 20 metres behind the others in the race for the finish line. The fast guys might compete.

This is a great thread
To add my voice to the mix, i believe the yardstick for an action on this scale should be "is it potentially divisive?" - and, if it is, perhaps it would best to reconsider.

Again. I'm stoked that we are looking at why it's seen as divisive. Spare me from a life devoid of challenge. Often I think our responses to this kind of challenge are reactive because it feels like someone is personally attacking us; or if someone else gets something, we might be missing out; or another person or group getting ahead puts us back. Most Maori don't want revenge. It would be nice to have a greater acceptance of things Maori. This does not mean two sets of laws. We definitely need to be held accountable in the same way for the big stuff, but there has to be some room for flexibility around the edges. Give a little and we ( I really mean we) might get a lot back. That's how relationships work sometimes.

There are heaps of other posts that I wanted to respond to but I've repeated myself enough already. Top marks for starting this Colapop and to those with the courage to express views in a thoughtful way.

[Clivoris]

Shit. I can't help myself can I? A good mate of mine that I use a as a sounding board sent me this.
Quote:
Just a few incoherent idle thoughts...not aimed at anybody by the way... I went to the forum and read it [by the way I think Apartheid does have an h in it].

Like what passes for so much of 'Maori' politics currently I see theatre. Its about protest and literally raising flags to raise issues isnt it ? A more 'real' 'Maori' politics would be looking at issues of power within the Maori world perhaps? [eg women speaking on marae - how does this culture evolve and who sets the agenda]. I suspect that will happen once some of the other stuff is done. Its a bit naive to ask politically active Maori not to 'play the race card' - its the one issue they get traction on.

Theres alot of room for debate and revision of NZ history - hell thats what history is. In a sense the retelling never ends.
I expected worse to be blunt. Theres veiws there that seem a bit er simple but they at least talk about it and try to frame arguments.
Pakeha don't like the feeling - the impression - that we are being accused of something - partly because many of us dont personally feel we have done anything wrong.

I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.

Increasingly I think 'ethnicity' means 'race' in exactly the way that race was meant 100 years ago. Its seen a static category - a type- a nasty generalisation - so rather like the term spirituality I have strong suspicions about how meaningful or useful it is.

dont have any answers ... I am actually quietly optimistic....
From here and now ... well, we are just people and I wish we'd all just let each other live and if that means expressing a culture more strongly than I express mine...go for it.
End quote.
He's expressed some good stuff.

[doc]

I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.


Well if thats the case which race believe they have an entitlement to eat a wood pigeon on their death bed, even if they are endangered ? I'm not hori but they do taste particularly good after a good day tramping thru the scrub with a feed of fried bread and golden syrup as the evening meal, well so I'm told your Honour.

[candor]

Raise the flag. Who cares if settler stock fear the flag. They're not worried about topless chics on Queen Street - which is the least P.C.? And those Maori who don't like it can help Transit take it down. We should have had a Maori only poll on it to gauge the will of the people. My main concern is not divisiveness - its that stunts like this are getting tired and boring and that some people actually still get excited about the Maori 'gettin' uppity'. How about that Kaumatua pulling rank and saying the Titewhais can stay home if they're planning to go ballistic and make people cry on his marae, again.

The answer was "but we've always done this march and bitch session" - if its just an automatic response, then that to me says - yawn - get more creative.

Oh - re the "spiritual superiority", I find some Maori buy into certain (positive strength based) stereotypes about themselves and deficit theories about us, and that claim to greater spirituality is one of the most dehumanising. It is a kind of racism. This gets into dangerous territory whe they use their heavy duty spiritual powers to claim they are so psychic or intuitive they KNOW if someone is telling the truth. Usually the special powers will reveal to them the pakeha is lying even when not true. I do thik Maori can be more intuitive but its not infallible.

[oldrider]

Thread is too long to read completely but to the opening post I have a message for so called Maori separatists and it is the one that they bleat continuously to the rest of New Zealand.

"Honour the bloody treaty yourselves"! :yes: Cheers John.

[elle-f]

The problem is, is that Maori are all lumped under the words of a few. I would actually like to see the Maori Flag flying beside the NZ Flag as I see both of them as mine. There are some people here who obviously think they can sit in judgement of ALL Maori because they have met a few and well, if that's how you live your lives - thats all well and fine however, i am pleased I don't live like that and judge all Pakeha on what a few have said. In saying that, I actually don't judge people on colour at all - I judge them as to whether they are assholes or not.

Kia Ora
Elle

[The_Dover]

The problem is, is that Maori are all lumped under the words of a few. I would actually like to see the Maori Flag flying beside the NZ Flag as I see both of them as mine. There are some people here who obviously think they can sit in judgement of ALL Maori because they have met a few and well, if that's how you live your lives - thats all well and fine however, i am pleased I don't live like that and judge all Pakeha on what a few have said. In saying that, I actually don't judge people on colour at all - I judge them as to whether they are assholes or not.

Kia Ora
Elle

what a crock of shit. we don't need to judge you as maori and we don't give a fuck whether you are or not.

you're the wankers that need to differentiate yourself and want special treatment because you are.

we don't need to judge you because your race is irrelevant. to us.

[elle-f]

Dover - i suggest you put that alcohol down or whatever it is you are taking and settle. You seem to have judged me based on what? A differing view to yours? man oh man

As for my race being irrelevant to you - thats an interesting point because for something so irrelevant.......it sure makes you angry huh!:laugh:

Have a lovely evening
Kia Ora e hoa!
Elle

[Pixie]

There is evidence of early civilisations up to 150,000 years ago in NZ, and most likely Celtic origins.

You do realise,don't you, that modern humans-Homo Sapiens,Sapeins- evolved only 100,000 years ago in southern Africa.Were these "Celts" the Neanderthal Ones?

Sorry 150,000 years would put it around the time of Kang and Kodos' NZ tour

[The_Dover]

Dover - i suggest you put that alcohol down or whatever it is you are taking and settle. You seem to have judged me based on what? A differing view to yours? man oh man

As for my race being irrelevant to you - thats an interesting point because for something so irrelevant.......it sure makes you angry huh!:laugh:

Have a lovely evening
Kia Ora e hoa!
Elle

you race doesn't make me angry. your demands for recognition based on it do.

I haven't judged you, you're the one with an agenda.

I choose to treat people based on who they are, not what they are. Can I demand to fly the scottish flag (based on my heritage and that of many thousand kiwis) on the harbour bridge St Andrews day?

[elle-f]

Dover again you have totally got me wrong. I have no agenda....i just replied to a thread and posted a lovely pic HAHA and I have also stated that I judge people on whether they are assholes or not.

Who but you say that I demand recognition? I know who I am and I know what my culture/s are. I have absolutely no issue with that.

Go for it with the Scottish Flag. I again, have no issue with that. I am not Transit nor a member of it and I don't make decisions whether a flag may be flown or not. It wouldn't matter to me anyhow! I really don't give a toss what flag hangs there!

[pixc]

:grouphug: GROUP HUG!!..


ooops


wrong thread

[elle-f]

pixc :laugh:

Have a great night Dover - I am heading off to bed after a huge day at the 7s! You have a good sleep when you get there

[mstriumph]

the Aborigines get to fly their traditional Aborigine flag here and everyone has to respect it as a central part of their culture .......:yes:

............ the really hilarious part of that being that Aborigines didn't have textiles until the advent of the first fleet ...........

[Dafe]

It's a day off - Thats all I give a shit about... Another day to go riding!

It can provide some excitement too on the odd occassion.
Nothing beats watching Motu garden!

[elle-f]

Dafe - i concur *L*.

[Lou Girardin]

Go and visit the Goldie paintings of ancient chiefs in the art gallery.

Funnily enough, Goldie is not the flavour of the month with the Maori grievance industry, his portrayals are a bit too real. A bit too colonial, they don't capture the Maori myth as they think they should.

[Smorg]

............ the really hilarious part of that being that Aborigines didn't have textiles until the advent of the first fleet ...........

What are you talking about............they had clay and stuff just check out the cave paintings

[Clockwork]

.... I would actually like to see the Maori Flag flying beside the NZ Flag as I see both of them as mine.

Surely that's the issue, while the NZ flag does represent us all the Maori flag doesn't, its a flag of exclusivity, a sort of "up yours" that these people want to fly on a day that the rest of us are trying to celebrate nationhood/unity.

[Clockwork]

You'll get nowhere by JUST treating the physical manifestations, in many cases that will just increase health epidemics eg attention seekers. The history of nursing is long but if you're interested...

Witches.... politically active, used range of potions and counselling
Victorian prostitutes (took rich dying old men home)...
Florence Nightingale (made what the hookers did respectable tho had trouble recruiting 'nice girls' to do such stigmatised work initially)... very socially and politically active like advocated for hygeine / ventilated facilities, health education and health promotion
Nurse Maude - took nursing here in NZ out of the hospital on her bicycle
Diabetes nurses - educate about diet eg in fat communities
Psyc nurses - work on changing cultural beliefs that contribute to suicide and removing stigma so patients will not suffer sticks and stones atop illness which can exacerbate illness eg cause them not to take medicine, back to hosp!
Nurse prescribers - see selves as regaining the prescribing role Drs stole from them in Victorian era
Voluntary nurses abroad - may advocate to effect the politics making people starve or not get medicines if they are a prime cause of illness etc

As I hope you see to talk of nurses as mere wound dressers is very narrow - caregivers can do that, nurses are expected to have a lot more nous and ability to see what needs fixin' (in whatever area) to get the result.

Re 'cultural safety' comment - yes,its a trade off. But one needed less and less as those who wanted it (Maori) have taken over their own services now making all the focus on that in our training somewhat wasted - it was back then identified as transitional anyway. Despite how extreme it was the general principles have now beeen adopted by nursing education courses all over the world. The main promoter of it Irahapeti Ramsden died of cancer a lil while ago. Deano - tell your sociology lecturer to tell that to rellys of patients killed by culturally unsafe staff please - example; a very old gran in hospital stopped eating and talking (whakama state) which caused her death. It was eventually established that a full urine pottle had been placed momentarily on her food table. That happening and then not getting resolved properly is why she died. For an old traditional Maori this event was somewhat akin to rape.

Sorry, I'm not buying this, would like to discuss it further but it's way :offtopic:

[elle-f]

Surely that's the issue, while the NZ flag does represent us all the Maori flag doesn't, its a flag of exclusivity, a sort of "up yours" that these people want to fly on a day that the rest of us are trying to celebrate nationhood/unity.

I dunno if I would say that the NZ flag represents us all. I wouldn't want my culture defined by a flag that really has zilch to do with a major part of my culture. By saying that all kiwi use the NZ BLUE UNION JACK flag - you assume that we all think its wonderful. I don't dislike that flag at all but the Maori flag is something that i believe in as well. It's interesting that Waitangi Day has become a NZ day which certainly stops the hoohaa that has happened in the past. I am all for that. We have been celebrating Waitangi Day as Aotearoa Day for about 10 years now and it's always been great. It's a pity that the media look out for the problem spots and sit there for the day and that's all they report.

[R1madness]

Hmm. I dont know where to stand on this one. I am as white as they come. Scot/welsh decent i am told but i am a NEW ZEALANDER. i sign the census as that and any other official document.
My 2 step daughters are part maori (on their fathers side) and i fully respect their right to their own heratage. HOWEVER that includes their european side as well.
Its a sad day when we cant put our past greivances of 2 centurys ago behind us and try to coexist in harmony sharing this great land.
Happy Waitangi/NZ/Maori day whichever way you choose to celerbrate it. I will be celerbrating it by going for a ride.

[Macktheknife]

You do realise,don't you, that modern humans-Homo Sapiens,Sapeins- evolved only 100,000 years ago in southern Africa.Were these "Celts" the Neanderthal Ones?

Sorry 150,000 years would put it around the time of Kang and Kodos' NZ tour

Hey Pixie, no offence but I think maybe you should do some more research, Sapiens have been around for much longer than that and the 'stonebuilders' who inhabited NZ were here a long time before the Maori, much evidence exists to show they were a sizeable population spread around the country and were very skilled in surveying and building. They built canals and roads, houses and forts of stone with wooden defenses, there is evidence that the Pa is not a maori invention but something they took over from the previous inhabitants.
Have a look at some of this info for example.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&q=pre+maori+history&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryNZ

[Disco Dan]

it winds me up something cronic when people in this country bleat on and on about how their great, great uncle twice removed once dated a half maori which lived next door.. so that makes them 'a maori' ..now gimme all my extra benifits.

Im English - and fricking darn proud of my country. I choose to live here because its clean and pretty safe.

For a nation to become an equal society we must all recognise each other as being 'equal' - ie THE SAME.. Human.

Alot of Maori people seem to think they are somehow superiour... which is very sad.

Dont get me started on the TOW, I just managed to offend half my university class with my opinions of that (well they did ask). Which by the way are based on facts that the university gave me - seems they dont like the truth.

[pixc]

Maori have grievances about what happened 100-150 years ago....shouldnt they take it up with England?

Incidently where do I stand in this debate? I dunno. I think its a joke. I want to move forward in life..not get hung up what my great great grand did/didnt do

[MSTRS]

Maori have grievances about what happened 100-150 years ago....shouldnt they take it up with England? YEP

Incidently where do I stand in this debate? I dunno. I think its a joke. I want to move forward in life..not get hung up what my great great grand did/didnt do

I'd think that would be what most Kiwis (of all colours) would want to do. It is only a 'select' few who are not interested in moving forward. The insidious thing about them is that they 'can't move forward until the wrongs are addressed' yet every one of those wrongs just leads to another (real or invented). Let England deal with it. Kiwis are tired of fixing the bullshit.

[Pathos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mori_Ori#The_debunked_myth_of_Moriori_in_New_Zeala nd

research is a good thing.

[doc]

Let England deal with it. Kiwis are tired of fixing the bullshit.

I knew it was Dovers fault, he's even moved in among them to wind them up more.

[Clivoris]

what a crock of shit. we don't need to judge you as maori and we don't give a fuck whether you are or not.

you're the wankers that need to differentiate yourself and want special treatment because you are.

we don't need to judge you because your race is irrelevant. to us.
This confuses me Dover. You don't give a fuck about whether or not I'm Maori as long as I don't do it in front of you? How is wanting a flag flown asking for special treatment? Maori are different. Maybe not in ways that you care about or want to understand, but it seems like if some Maori want to express and celebrate this difference it is offensive.

you race doesn't make me angry. your demands for recognition based on it do.

I choose to treat people based on who they are, not what they are. Can I demand to fly the scottish flag (based on my heritage and that of many thousand kiwis) on the harbour bridge St Andrews day?
Fly whatever flag you want for all I care. Will you treat me differently if I want my children to grow up speaking Maori? Will you treat me differently if I want my children to be able to speak Maori as part of their daily life, or will that be o.k only if they don't expect the community that they live in to accomodate this desire? I honestly want to understand this.

Surely that's the issue, while the NZ flag does represent us all the Maori flag doesn't, its a flag of exclusivity, a sort of "up yours" that these people want to fly on a day that the rest of us are trying to celebrate nationhood/unity.
It saddens me that so many people believe ideas like this. Why does a group of people asserting their identity interfere with unity? The only thing that prevents unity is people intolerant of difference. This applies to Maori and non-Maori.

it winds me up something cronic when people in this country bleat on and on about how their great, great uncle twice removed once dated a half maori which lived next door.. so that makes them 'a maori' ..now gimme all my extra benifits.

Im English - and fricking darn proud of my country. I choose to live here because its clean and pretty safe.

For a nation to become an equal society we must all recognise each other as being 'equal' - ie THE SAME.. Human.

Alot of Maori people seem to think they are somehow superiour... which is very sad.


Good on you for being proud of being English. I would do whatever I could to let you express your Englishness.
Do we have to be the same to be equal? What do you mean by equal? Where are all these Maori getting ahead of you in life with their special benefits? If you are keen to remove special benefits would it be ok to remove the special benefits that come from being part of, or aligned with the successful colonisers?

Maori have grievances about what happened 100-150 years ago....shouldnt they take it up with England?

Incidently where do I stand in this debate? I dunno. I think its a joke. I want to move forward in life..not get hung up what my great great grand did/didnt do

I have no idea about the technicalities of Treaty law. I wont let ignorance hold me back though. I would guess that the Crown (England) was initially represented here by a colonial government. Somehow that evolved into a more independent self-governance through the beneficence of the crown, with our government taking over the crown's interest and responsibilities. My understanding is that when Maori have tried to take it up with England through avenues such as the privy council, they either haven't been interested or their recomendations have ben ignored by our government.

Maori are moving forward. It is slow but inevitable, and gaining momentum. As more Maori become educated and have access to economic well-being there will be greater assertion of the Maori world-view. Education and money equal power. People who don't recognise this and cling to the politics of the 80's (Maori and non-Maori) are the ones who are failing to move forward. Still it would be nice if more people took time to understand the grievances that Maori have and acknowledge them. The reality is that sweet fuck all can be done about it now, but if some things can be done, why shouldn't they be done?

[The_Dover]

This confuses me Dover. You don't give a fuck about whether or not I'm Maori as long as I don't do it in front of you? How is wanting a flag flown asking for special treatment? Maori are different. Maybe not in ways that you care about or want to understand, but it seems like if some Maori want to express and celebrate this difference it is offensive.

Fly whatever flag you want for all I care. Will you treat me differently if I want my children to grow up speaking Maori? Will you treat me differently if I want my children to be able to speak Maori as part of their daily life, or will that be o.k only if they don't expect the community that they live in to accomodate this desire? I honestly want to understand this.

It saddens me that so many people believe ideas like this. Why does a group of people asserting their identity interfere with unity? The only thing that prevents unity is people intolerant of difference. This applies to Maori and non-Maori.

Good on you for being proud of being English. I would do whatever I could to let you express your Englishness.
Do we have to be the same to be equal? What do you mean by equal? Where are all these Maori getting ahead of you in life with their special benefits? If you are keen to remove special benefits would it be ok to remove the special benefits that come from being part of, or aligned with the successful colonisers?


I have no idea about the technicalities of Treaty law. I wont let ignorance hold me back though. I would guess that the Crown (England) was initially represented here by a colonial government. Somehow that evolved into a more independent self-governance through the beneficence of the crown, with our government taking over the crown's interest and responsibilities. My understanding is that when Maori have tried to take it up with England through avenues such as the privy council, they either haven't been interested or their recomendations have ben ignored by our government.

Maori are moving forward. It is slow but inevitable, and gaining momentum. As more Maori become educated and have access to economic well-being there will be greater assertion of the Maori world-view. Education and money equal power. People who don't recognise this and cling to the politics of the 80's (Maori and non-Maori) are the ones who are failing to move forward. Still it would be nice if more people took time to understand the grievances that Maori have and acknowledge them. The reality is that sweet fuck all can be done about it now, but if some things can be done, why shouldn't they be done?

mate, i give up.

speak maori, others speak their own languages, i don't care I just wont understand.

transit say no flag, then no flag.

[doc]

Maoridom can do whatever it wants to do. Just don't expect me to pay for it. We have a society that is basically lead by the Labour Government ideals (Roger Douglas) you know the man who said "There will be some pain for some" which bought in the "User Pays" philosophy And no one in power has changed that yet. When Maori can pay for their beliefs go for it. Just leave me alone I've got enough problems.

[Grahameeboy]

The past is just that, the present is now and the future yet to be told...........I think the Maori Culture is the only true and worthwhile culture NZ has, however, it is being spoilt by what appears to be greed not tradition.

This latest Kumara issue is just ridiculous...............it is hard to take things seriously.

No one owns the land, we are just keepers which have changed over the Centuries and we should all realise this and enjoy this fine country which with such a low population cannot afford all this crap because in the end it will all end up biting everyone's bum and there will be no winners.

We should listen and acknowledge and then just move on..............please.

[The_Dover]

Just leave me alone I've got enough problems.


MV still falling apart on you huh?

[Ixion]

But before you move on, buy me a drink. Speights , thanks.

[doc]

MV still falling apart on you huh?Got new headlite under warranty now got a fuckin cracked lens from stone chip.

[elle-f]

Why do you assume that we want people paying for us? I work and think I am beneficial to society and I do what I can. I love being the culture/s that I am. I also don't have problems so therapy is out however, I can offer you free sessions since you are a kiwi biker :laugh:

[doc]

Why do you assume that we want people paying for us? I work and think I am beneficial to society and I do what I can. I love being the culture/s that I am. I also don't have problems so therapy is out however, I can offer you free sessions since you are a kiwi biker :laugh:Good on you but are you paying enough to support the rest of your clan. User pays you know. Why the fcuk do dole bluggers pay tax ?

[candor]

Another 5 cents. One time too many they said it.

150 yrs ago - generations ago -- grandaddys problem --- Mummy Englands

No Noooo Noooo uh uh NO! RECENT RECENT RECENT. Fore-shaaaww :shit:

Also Tarianas latest speech expressed a new grievance - Maori apparently excluded from getting 20 hours of free childcare that others can get :shit:

[Colapop]

You kn ow what I jus t got bak frim thes sevens and tehre's nno bullshit jusst kiwis. 7's ropck11 EVERYbosdy having a good tine tahts all jusy god times

[COP_B8]

Quote:
Originally Posted by COP_B8
As a University student I am continually fighting to get through to limited entry courses which are restricted in entry to ensure only those capable of performing at a high standard are submitted through, last year this was a B+ average mark......unless you are fortunate enough to have a portion of maori in you in which case you can fall into the 10% of students that are automatically submitted through. One of my friends basically put no effort in and said that he did not need to as he could get through under this entry.
If this is not segregation I dont know what is, not only that but if joe public sought the services of a professional (lawyer, doctor etc...) surely they would want to know that they are seeing someone that worked hard to get there and know what they are doing. not someone that scraped through on 50% passes......

Glad to hear you're getting through. I'm suprised that this is still happening, but I admit to a bias and agreement with this for the reason I outlined above. It is harder for Maori to compete. People that rort this are taking the piss and aren't doing others any favours. He's lucky your still his friend. I don't know what qualification you are working toward but in my trade (mental health) there is evidence that Maori achieve better outcomes when matched with a Maori professional. I didn't get in under a quota but the idea has appeal for me.

Law;

Straight off the Vic website:
· A supplementary admission process is also run to assess tangata whenua students for entry into second year law courses if they would not otherwise be considered. 10% of available places in each second year course are reserved for Maori students applying under the Maori Admissions Process.

Sorry, I struggle to believe how Maori have a hard time competing in University? do you mind explaining how they would find it any harder than an asian, a european, a mature student, someone who has just moved towns to study........

[elle-f]

Good on you but are you paying enough to support the rest of your clan. User pays you know. Why the fcuk do dole bluggers pay tax ?

i dunno - are you paying enough to support your side of the clan? I guess it's relative! I heard that people on the dole pay tax and i have no idea why they do either. Seems odd to me that they are just giving back what they are getting for free anyhow.

[elle-f]

You kn ow what I jus t got bak frim thes sevens and tehre's nno bullshit jusst kiwis. 7's ropck11 EVERYbosdy having a good tine tahts all jusy god times

yep, i had an AWESOME two days! Glad you enjoyed! And you are right - nobody cares who is who unless you are an Australian team HAHA

[doc]

i dunno - are you paying enough to support your side of the clan? I guess it's relative! I heard that people on the dole pay tax and i have no idea why they do either. Seems odd to me that they are just giving back what they are getting for free anyhow.Yep I'm paying more than my share why should my girls get no student allowance because wev'e been frugal which brings us back to the poverty level of those that do get the allowance (Probably proping up Finn) So he can get a refund but I haven't got enough energy at the end of it to make a stand not like some of them who don't have anything to do except protest at what they could have had if you get my drift.

[elle-f]

Yep I'm paying more than my share why should my girls get no student allowance because wev'e been frugal which brings us back to the poverty level of those that do get the allowance (Probably proping up Finn) So he can get a refund but I haven't got enough energy at the end of it to make a stand not like some of them who don't have anything to do except protest at what they could have had if you get my drift.

Doc not really sorry. I tried to make some sense of what you said though. I THINK you are saying that those who dont work seem to get everything? Think about it - why would somebody WANT the dole in the first place? Hell, most of us earn more than what they get in a week, in a day. Living frugal for your daughters is something that your family has decided to do in order for your girls to better themselves with education. Good on you. That's exactly what I would do as well if I was in that situation. Some who don't do that might not be able to afford that. Those that don't even think about the future of their children really aren't teaching them much at all so, in the long run, your girls will be better off and I for one, applaud you for that.

[doc]

Doc not really sorry. I tried to make some sense of what you said though. I THINK you are saying that those who dont work seem to get everything? Think about it - why would somebody WANT the dole in the first place? Hell, most of us earn more than what they get in a week, in a day. Living frugal for your daughters is something that your family has decided to do in order for your girls to better themselves with education. Good on you. That's exactly what I would do as well if I was in that situation. Some who don't do that might not be able to afford that. Those that don't even think about the future of their children really aren't teaching them much at all so, in the long run, your girls will be better off and I for one, applaud you for that.
Seems like I'm being patronised, sort of what we all do aye

[elle-f]

Doc, no way am I patronising you. I wouldnt do that. What I was trying to convey was that what you are doing is a great thing. I teach and I see so many children who really don't have a positive future because of the things you first spoke about. Their parent/s are busy complaining about lack of money yet are boozing and drugging it all up and the kids are left with ZILCH to the point that the school has to feed them. That totally bugs me and makes me wanna get those parents and bloody well ..........well, you probably know what I am gonna say!!

It probably is hard to look around when you are struggling and see those that are doing nothing but getting hand-outs for doing nothing. It pisses everybody off truth be known. I wouldn't also say that all people on the dole or DPB are bludgers because some are there because of situations that really aren't of their own making. The ones that use it to get a foot up and then are off again into the world are the ones that use it for what it was originally intended.

Anyhow, I am way off topic:laugh:

Ya know, Colapop was right - at the 7s nobody cares what culture or what country you are from. We are all Kiwi and if we are not we are in Kiwiland and it's an amazing feeling to be part of that without anybody putting anybody in any kind of "basket".

[98tls]

In the words of a real estate agent: Know them before you judge them. Who the Fark is them...........jesus its 2007..........we all live here and have the right to call ourselves kiwis..........thats basically the only right we have....the rest you have to earn...................culture/tradition is all good and something we all have............lets keep it, shut the fuck up about it and move on to save what we have left of this once great country.........

[Lissa]

Doc, no way am I patronising you. I wouldnt do that. What I was trying to convey was that what you are doing is a great thing. I teach and I see so many children who really don't have a positive future because of the things you first spoke about. Their parent/s are busy complaining about lack of money yet are boozing and drugging it all up and the kids are left with ZILCH to the point that the school has to feed them. That totally bugs me and makes me wanna get those parents and bloody well ..........well, you probably know what I am gonna say!!

It probably is hard to look around when you are struggling and see those that are doing nothing but getting hand-outs for doing nothing. It pisses everybody off truth be known. I wouldn't also say that all people on the dole or DPB are bludgers because some are there because of situations that really aren't of their own making. The ones that use it to get a foot up and then are off again into the world are the ones that use it for what it was originally intended.

Anyhow, I am way off topic:laugh:

Ya know, Colapop was right - at the 7s nobody cares what culture or what country you are from. We are all Kiwi and if we are not we are in Kiwiland and it's an amazing feeling to be part of that without anybody putting anybody in any kind of "basket".
Good on you elle... I have been keeping out of this thread, cause I thought it was a little 'stereotyping'.

Elle.. you are a friggin AWESOME teacher.. wish you were mine when I was growing up... hehe you prob old enough to have been .. :shutup: just joking!!

Anyway had too much to drink... might go watch some rugby!

[Colapop]

yep, i had an AWESOME two days! Glad you enjoyed! And you are right - nobody cares who is who unless you are an Australian team HAHA
Shit Ellle I Lookwed for you buty I could not find you. ShitHJOT weekend! wOO HOOO

[mstriumph]

What are you talking about............they had clay and stuff just check out the cave paintings

textiles, duck ----- woven fabric ........ as in shirts, or skirts .......

or flags :mellow:

[elle-f]

Shit Ellle I Lookwed for you buty I could not find you. ShitHJOT weekend! wOO HOOO

We were waving our poi around constantly HAHA.

[Lissa]

Shit Ellle I Lookwed for you buty I could not find you. ShitHJOT weekend! wOO HOOO
Wow... your spelling is really bad!!! :shutup:

[Colapop]

Nice on tghe big screem

[elle-f]

Lissa, I think possibly our Colapop was popping a bit too much booze over the past couple of days :laugh: I get what he means though because most people there were talking like that at the end HAHA

[Ixion]

uth du runke or is it delayed concussion?

[Lissa]

LOL... but funny enough I can still understand him.. maybe its the 5 burbons Ive had. :shutup:

[elle-f]

bloody hell girl. My worry is that you are putting a *Lissa* nip in it - which is about 10 times more than a normal nip :laugh:

[Ixion]

And may I point out that post #146 seems to have been entirely overlooked.

[Lissa]

And may I point out that post #146 seems to have been entirely overlooked.
Thats cause it was yesterday... I thought real men drank Tui??

[Ixion]

Real men drink Tui. Yeah, right!

[SixPackBack]

Looks like the international community disagrees with you lot pissin' and moanin' about our brothers. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10422364
The 'Kumara thing' could be interpreted as entrepreneurial and 'lets give it a shot'. Something normally applauded in our society.

I can feel a song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-CRe5DkZzg) comin' on.:yes:

[The_Dover]

I think the problem is SPB, that most of us do appreciate the place.

We just don't want it ruined by making white folks 2nd class citizens with fewer rights and privileges than those with some tenuous link to the original settlers.

[Colapop]

Lissa, I think possibly our Colapop was popping a bit too much booze over the past couple of days :laugh: I get what he means though because most people there were talking like that at the end HAHA
A little worse for wear this morning but all in all a great party! The sevens demonstrates what the majority of people are about in NZ. Just being happy. Still didn't manage to find you Elle but I did some mad poi swingers on the big screen (around about aisle 30?) Got a ton of great pics a couple of them don't have chicks in them. Probably post them is a sevens thread or summat.... right now need coffee...

[Hitcher]

Hmmmm. Poi. Lemon meringue poi.

[elle-f]

Hmmmm. Poi. Lemon meringue poi.

nuffin loike it!

[Deano]

A more 'real' 'Maori' politics would be looking at issues of power within the Maori world perhaps? [eg women speaking on marae - how does this culture evolve and who sets the agenda].


Good point - from one perspective this is perhaps also an example of the difficulty of the theory of 'cultural safety'.

Women compromising their own culture, or even basic civil rights by not being allowed to speak on Marae. It seems a bit outdated and draconian.

Muslim women wearing Burqa's is perhaps another. Don't 'we' in NZ like to see someone's face when talking to them ? (Are they really allowed to wear a Burqa while being photographed for their driver's licence ?



I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.


Hard to swallow that one - e.g. the extinction Moa ?

There was a Maori girl in my sociology class who once made the statement that only Maori have mana........patriotism/honour etc are not exclusively Maori beliefs, but that was how she felt.


I dunno if I would say that the NZ flag represents us all. I wouldn't want my culture defined by a flag that really has zilch to do with a major part of my culture.

But 'your' ancestors signed the Treaty and became British subjects didn't they ? You can't embrace/accept that part of your history ? Surely it's a two way street ?

[elle-f]

English is a part of my history but not my culture.........the irish and scots got to the marae first :laugh: and not all tribes signed that Treaty. Thats not my issue though. I consider myself a Kiwi and love being it but i also love being Maori and celebrate that as well. I really don't see it as an issue at all. I am kinda freaking out if those that are reading this are on the Waitangi Day Ride to the Wairarapa because they are gonna think I am some sort of Angry Maori Radical! I only came into this thread to give another side to what was being said is all....not to get into any argument because lets face it, we are all adults and have our own views and no matter how much huffing and puffing one does in a forum - on the whole - who is going to change their view? I see both sides but sit on my side because i cannot say YES!! lets all become one culture!! because if we do that - something gets left out and isn't society more interesting with loads of differences and similarities? I cannot go out and say Maori are the BEST!! because if i did that i would be compromising the very thing i value about NZ and my job. Sure, I wouldnt choose another culture to be than Maori because that's what I am - but i would think that most people said that of their own cultures. That doesn't mean that I think we are the best because I would say we stack up very high on statistics where we shouldn't be. But I wouldnt fit into another culture.

Ya know Deano - Talking about the British side - People don't look at me and see me as British. I am Maori, I look Maori (moreso at the 7s :laugh: ) and I am treated as such by those who think Maori are crap. I might as well embrace my culture and the one that I look like because if I didn't - ell, i wouldn't like to think what would happen. I wouldn't be accepted anywhere.

*heading out to paint self an even lighter shade of white so nobody recognises me on the Wairarapa Ride and maybe somebody will sit with me this time :laugh: *

[candor]

Good point - from one perspective this is perhaps also an example of the difficulty of the theory of 'cultural safety'.

Women compromising their own culture, or even basic civil rights by not being allowed to speak on Marae. It seems a bit outdated and draconian.

This statement really just shows that you don't understand the values that underpin the non speaking tradition in some places (not for me to explain either) - FYI I have seen ancient kuia do haka and oratory of the highest order which is largely theatrical including a sort of mime on the odd marae, which do not have that protocol also


But 'your' ancestors signed the Treaty and became British subjects didn't they ? You can't embrace/accept that part of your history?

I would bloody hope not. Maori attained the rights of Brits only - not became British subjects - kind of like us if we had a dual US / Kiwi passport letting us have protection of US laws when in the US. If you go to the relevant article of the treaty version signed in the North and read the Maori version it very specifically states that sovereignty 'tino rangatiratanga' remains with the chiefs within each and every one of their own territories.

There is no two ways about this. Only 'Kawanatanga' or Governorship was ceded and this to Maori meant the role of 'mediator' should any tensions between the peoples arise. A long long thrashing out of the appropriate words occurred in hui as of course Maori weren't prepared to give up sovereignty to a few strays among their great numbers.

They weren't insane for goodness sake. If the English version said something different some weren't worried as they knew they had it straight in the Maori - the one they kept throwing in the Queens face 20 years later. Round when Europeans mystifyingly started acting like they had sovereignty eg sending a magistrate in to Waikato who spent his days distributing anti King propaganda and trying to get disputes heard by him instead of elders.

The rude presumptuos and assumed insane gits printing press landed in the river. Maori elite even travelled to England to raise the 'misunderstanding' and seek hearings with royalty there. Snubbed though.

Had Maori any strong belief sovereignty had been lost why the heck would they have bothered to try and take land off each other ongoing back then....? And why would Gov Gray have felt the need to visit King Tawhiao some 20 yrs with the unenviable job of just elucidating how pakeha saw the treaty other tribes had signed - hoping he'd pass it on this suckful news of the English treaty differences thereby (he musta hoped) smoothing frictions over the (splutter) longstanding 'misunderstanding'.

I recommend you read some Michael King to get in the picture.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10422386&ref=rss

[The_Dover]

I recommend you read some Michael King to get in the picture.

the dude with the pork recipes and the goofy teeth?

he's a funny cunt.

[Clivoris]

Law;

Straight off the Vic website:
· A supplementary admission process is also run to assess tangata whenua students for entry into second year law courses if they would not otherwise be considered. 10% of available places in each second year course are reserved for Maori students applying under the Maori Admissions Process.

Sorry, I struggle to believe how Maori have a hard time competing in University? do you mind explaining how they would find it any harder than an asian, a european, a mature student, someone who has just moved towns to study........

I'm more than happy to speak about my experience. My whanau couldn't afford to support me through Uni (pre student loans and after). More Maori are poor=less access to education even with student loans cos they still have to be paid back. More Maori are from low education or working class households=less role models, less understanding of what it takes to succeed and less expectation that education or professional careers are available. I know that this doesn't only apply to Maori, and it doesn't stop people like me from getting through the system.

Once I got into Uni I experienced something of a culture shock. I was used to having almost daily contact with extended whanau and having a feeling of being actively involved in something bigger than me. Something that was more important than my personal priorities. An example of this would be me dropping everything to assist an extended family member experiencing health problems or having to stop and visit extended family if I was passing through their town. I better have a good excuse if I didn't.

Being away from this was really hard for me. Luckily I had a GS1000 and home was just a fast trip away. I also struggled with the rigidity and individual, competitive focus at uni. This totally blew me away as I knew I was Pakeha (and very happy about it), but I was like a Hillbilly fresh from the boonies. I was raised to be humble (whakaiti) and a weird off-shoot of this was that getting good grades would make me feel like I was being whakahihi (big headed and showing off). Ever cruised through papers or held back in tutorials so your class-mates wouldn't feel belittled? It happened. When with non-Maori I learnt to watch what I said for a whole bunch of reasons. If I spoke of my beliefs about topics like why Maori do things the way we do, I would often end up having an argument I didn't want to have with people that I liked. So it was hard to be myself in a relaxed way. I'd get little oases and recharge myself by being involved with other Maori at Uni and getting home often. If an extended family member died I would be torn between attending the tangi ( often a several day commitment with travel time) and attending to my study.

The courses I studied often contained asumptions that didn't gel with the way I thought the world worked e.g. the professional boundaries of psychology, wellness being measured as an individual's issue without reference to others, the emphasis on the measurable and observable and the minimising of things like traditional belief systems (I think an understanding of both is important and has value. In my work, what I believe isn't half as important as what my client believes). When I was studying, I wasn't just doing it for me. My whanau had an investment in my performance as well. Everything I do reflects on my family. If I fuck up, they have fucked up. That can make it scary to try because failing is so shameful. And I know this one might get an incredulous reaction, but I carry my ancestors with me. I have a responsibility to behave in a way that doesn't discredit them. This produces an interesting tension for me. I don't seriously believe that the ghosts of my Grandparents are standing at my shoulders, but they are. Doesn't make sense eh? Everybody responds to these kinds of presure in different ways and obviously not all Maori feel them, but trust me, get a bunch of Maori together and the large majority will know what these things are like, regardless of background and how traditional their upbringing has been.

I'm probably not providing enough information and it is very subjective, but the best summary I can give is that I really felt like an outsider, probably not just because of my mixed ethnicity but also because of my socio-economic background; and I also had commitments and stressors that non-Maori didn't have . I obviously adapted and survived, and believe that I am the better for it. Those that succeed do have to get through this system or other systems that come out of a "Western" world-view. This world-view dominates because it's very effective at what it does. But I would rather live in a world where there is more room for expression. I really like being a part of things Maori and encourage anyone to obtain an experience of the positive side of things Maori.

These debates use a strange mix of general statements, specific examples, and leaps of logic that are often contrary to other arguments we might make. I know that I will say things like people shouldn't make generalisations, then go ahead and make some of my own. Or get angry about people making "us and them" statements, then do exactly the same thing. I don't know how to resolve this especially with a topic that seems to trigger an emotion-charged self-protection mechanism. These issues don't have a single truth. All aspects of the debate have truth. Those who use resources should pay for them, but a society that cares for others without access to resources is a good society. All of us are paying for things through taxes that we don't derive direct benfit from but I am pretty sure that the whole country will benefit from an ongoing Maori renaisance.

We should all be held accountable to a single set of laws, but we should also be able to express our identities and beliefs if we aren't hurting others. I want to live in a community that encourages and accepts diversity without being threatened. This will mean accepting some things that feel counter-intuitive like admission quotas, and there will be people that will rip the system off (from all ethnic groups). Maori don't have a monopoly on struggle but for what it's worth we have a treaty that hasn't been honored. Statements about this being history and we should all move on, feel like a total invalidation of my experience and who I am. I don't think this is people's intention but that is what it feels like. Nobody sensible wants the clock wound back and many people are getting on with it. It's the only way. But it would be good to have my history and experience validated. Another good one is "It's the law get over it". That's pre-adolescent level reasoning and all of us can think of examples of when the law is an ass. Speeding or Greg Carvel anyone? It's also ok to say "I don't get it but I know that it's real for you", or "I don't get it, but what's it really going to cost me?". I also think that there are shitheads in all groups within NZ, but the Good C***ts out-number the fuckers.
I figure that I have to set an example of being open about an important issue like this and walk the talk. I also appreciate that people on this thread have had the courage to express honest opinions. In saying that, I'm pretty tired of the energy required and I think this will be my last lengthy post in this thread. The OP rum calls. Congratulations to anyone that had the stamina to read this. I hope it made some sense.

[Clivoris]

Yep I'm paying more than my share why should my girls get no student allowance because wev'e been frugal which brings us back to the poverty level of those that do get the allowance (Probably proping up Finn) So he can get a refund but I haven't got enough energy at the end of it to make a stand not like some of them who don't have anything to do except protest at what they could have had if you get my drift.

That law fucking sucks. Free education for all.

[Ixion]

.. An example of this would be me dropping everything to assist an extended family member experiencing health problems or having to stop and visit extended family if I was passing through their town. I better have a good excuse if I didn't.


Or, maybe , like the Biker Law. You ALWAYS stop to help a biker in distress. Maybe it's not such a uniquely Maori thing?



,, Ever cruised through papers or held back in tutorials so your class-mates wouldn't feel belittled? It happened.

Ever heard of the gentleman's C



,, I don't seriously believe that the ghosts of my Grandparents are standing at my shoulders, but they are. Doesn't make sense eh? ,,
Do you think only maori experience such things? Genuine question.

[elle-f]

Your whanau that have passed on are always there watching...................*twilight zone music*

[candor]

Not just watching - they force me to do stuff. It's like possession. Steven King soundtrack.

[Clivoris]

Or, maybe , like the Biker Law. You ALWAYS stop to help a biker in distress. Maybe it's not such a uniquely Maori thing?


Ever heard of the gentleman's C


Do you think only maori experience such things? Genuine question.

I wouldn't claim that these are unique to Maori. I think the Biker Law is a great example. It's something that we do because of the culture of biking. Get a bunch of bikers together and we have something unique and intangible that joins us despite our differences. Non-bikers might or might not get it. But I enjoy that difference and it doesn't stop me participating in other cultures. If I'm a biker does it doesn't stop me being a New Zealander. I just have a slice of experience that I know others are missing out on. Never heard of gentleman's C, but it makes sense. I've always thought that there are great areas of overlap between cultures, but it is the tensions or differences, sometimes subtle, that become the focus of how we define ourselves.

[Deano]

This statement really just shows that you don't understand the values that underpin the non speaking tradition in some places (not for me to explain either) - FYI I have seen ancient kuia do haka and oratory of the highest order which is largely theatrical including a sort of mime on the odd marae, which do not have that protocol also

Regardless, I believe in civil rights - for a culture to dismiss women's right to speak seems draconian to me.

My 'culture'/ancestors used to burn witches at the stake, but wev'e moved on I think.


I would bloody hope not. Maori attained the rights of Brits only - not became British subjects - kind of like us if we had a dual US / Kiwi passport letting us have protection of US laws when in the US.

Not a very good comparison I reckon. USA and NZ weren't at war like the British and Maori were at the time.

And personally, I would respect the USA flag while there - Tama Iti and the like don't do Maori any favours shooting the NZ flag on TV, which undoubtedly influences a lot of Kiwi's thinking.

History is one thing, but personal experiences leave more of an impact. I think in a lot of cases, Maori grievances have taken things too far - it's all good settling previous injustices, but keep it real or lose credibility.

Maybe another case of a few spoiling it for the rest ?

[candor]

The brits / maori were not at war but bloody friendly at the treaty time! Same as it was with the French - a French treaty was considered too.

Agreed Iti may have got some offside with that, its not respect 2 ways.

Re women not speaking being draconian - that is from a European perspective. There are checks and balances you likely know nothing of to keep everyones rights being met.

Maori can equally point at our culture and say 'hey thats obviously wrong' in a spirit of half seing the big picture then misunderstanding. Example is I am often judged for letting rellys go in to rest homes. Maori don't get it till I explain that my nans etc get driven mad by having ytoo many family around - we have a greater individuality and need for space. Also Nana would HATE for anyone to not work or advance their interests / career in order to loojk after her as she likes more than anything to hear of success. To her it would be extremely selfish and plain wrong t have kids give up work - they must do it to pay for their kids educations etc. My nana loved going to a home where 50 year friends were - they had gone through wars etc together.

On so many levels rest homes are right in and for our culture but to most maori I know they see it as elder abuse. The difference is CULTURE.

Women not speaking on the marae does not put them below men or mean they have less rights - when you take in account the whole raft of checks and balances and values taken into consideration that we know nothing of.

It was in fact for the protection of women and the whole tribe that women lost speaking rights in some tribes - much earlier they did have them when the paepae was the front porch or land outside a hut.

The laws of tapu as comprehended and laid down by ancestors and the need for 'energy balancing / protection' for lack of a better word, and historic events led to the transference of the speakers role to men as I understand it. Speech was punishable by death at one poiny as it was seen as reducing the chiefs power to foresee attacks on settlements - therefore a risk to the community.

Women however had great dominance over men in general in life - they said what goes, who gets land, if visitors were received or rejected, prisoners given to them to torture, some were warrioresses too. Women transmitted mana and priestess types could take it away reducing you to a persona non gratis by stepping over you.

Impressions are not always accurate. Its my belief that a lot of Maori guys are still carrying chips on their shoulders as they failed to defend the mother (land) - the females don't have to crry the guilt as they had the control of the land but not the defending role.

[Ixion]

I would bloody hope not. Maori attained the rights of Brits only - not became British subjects - kind of like us if we had a dual US / Kiwi passport letting us have protection of US laws when in the US.

Which brings things round in a circle to my original point about the Maori radicals always demanding 'rights' and refusing to accept 'duties'.

I will not venture to speak for what Maoris of 200+ years ago may have thought. But I have made some study of 18C Britain, and I can say with certainty that the notion of someone obtaining the "rights" of British subjects without becoming British subjects would have been utterly incomprehensible to any British soldier or civil servant of the day. The Maoris undertook to swear allegiance and fealty of the Queen. You CANNOT have fealty without duty.

When they signed the treaty the became British subjects. End of story.

Atre you arguing that Maoris today should have all the rights of New Zealand citizenship, but should not be obliged to accept any of the duties and responsibilities of citizenship? Because if so, then I think that the non-radicals need to start arming immediately, there is an unfinished war to deal with.

[gypsy]

One for all and all for one.

[avgas]

Again a good point, but if you are going to look into the history do it properly. The Waitaha and others were in NZ for more than 1000 years before the Maori arrived and began slaughtering those who did not agree with them. There is evidence of early civilisations up to 150,000 years ago in NZ, and most likely Celtic origins.
The claim of Maori being the 'indigenous people of the land' is false and nothing remotely similar to that of the Aborigines who have been in residence for around 40,000-70,000 years. I am sick of the deliberate misrepresentation of history to suit activists ends, all it takes is 30 seconds to search Google for 'pre-maori' history in NZ, mountains of information and research. Try it.
Try that agument all you like - people wont listen to you. I did and i have given up.
The country is a pile of hoo-haa when it comes to ancestry, if it predates tasman then only the tuatara knows.
Lets all completely ignore the chinese junks and the celtic barges.......nothing to see here.

[Clivoris]

Which brings things round in a circle to my original point about the Maori radicals always demanding 'rights' and refusing to accept 'duties'.

I will not venture to speak for what Maoris of 200+ years ago may have thought. But I have made some study of 18C Britain, and I can say with certainty that the notion of someone obtaining the "rights" of British subjects without becoming British subjects would have been utterly incomprehensible to any British soldier or civil servant of the day. The Maoris undertook to swear allegiance and fealty of the Queen. You CANNOT have fealty without duty.

When they signed the treaty the became British subjects. End of story.

Atre you arguing that Maoris today should have all the rights of New Zealand citizenship, but should not be obliged to accept any of the duties and responsibilities of citizenship? Because if so, then I think that the non-radicals need to start arming immediately, there is an unfinished war to deal with.

There's huge debate about what those old-time geezers thought they were signing. But there's no doubt that even if the treaty is taken out of the equation, we all have duties and obligations as New Zealand citizens. I hope that those duties and obligations don't prevent us (I really mean us) from expressing who we are within the bounds of the law.

[Deano]

The brits / maori were not at war but bloody friendly at the treaty time!


There wasn't fighting pre treaty, hence the need for a treaty ?



Re women not speaking being draconian - that is from a European perspective.


I don't believe that is a European perspective, but a civil rights perspective.

Who are we then to say female circumcision in some countries is wrong ?

Like I said, traditionally the English used to burn witches at the stake. Times change.

Personally, I have had too many personal experiences of racism growing up and also in my job - I shouldn't be made to feel responsible for something my (and your) ancestors did or didn't do.

Too many nonsense grievance claims have reduced credibility IMO.

[candor]

Where does it say in the treaty they swore fealty and allegiance? The rights they sought was for the Brits to keep their people under control. So naturally if a settler offended against Maori they wanted the same rights as brits had to be a witness etc and hoped after the treaty the CCrown could deal with its solely English origin subjects in their own wee import kangaroo court which was to be used for them.

Far as I know there ws no presumption Maori would fight for the crown which had very little relevance to them before or post the treaty. I'm not aware any went as Jacks to any conflicts England was engaged in - tho I'm not a historian. I am aware some tribes refused war service pretty consistently as they did not feel treated as brit subjects or any obligation.

From what most Maori have told me the bulk of Maori (excluding Ngai Tahu) had no belief they had become subject to foreign sovereignty. Governorship yes - as explained per the bibles use ogf the word that dd not mean they would be ruled or governed by the other signatory. A Governor was merely a chief mediator should issues need resolving - the role Gray and others were well understood as having played.

Again - from what most Maori (with heaps of education also confirmed by oral tribal history transmitted to them) have told me the decision to accept the concept of a sovereignty change as implied in the English version, did not come from the majority of tribes till the very belated Kohimarama conference, and even this was apparently very manipulated and almost under duress.

The Crown Lawyers generally talk of Kohimarama as being where sovereignty was orally ceded by most chiefs - not by the original treaty.

What late put a spanner in the works and gave the so called radicals more impetus was the UN in more recent times ruling that indigenous language treaty versions are always to take precedence over settler language ones.

Where it is at now then is a compromise situation. The Crown agreed to devolve some aspects of sovereignty in practise to Maori - without really letting pakeha EVER know the true state of play.

You will find that in Waitangi Tribunal papers the Crown / Maori have divided sovereignty into 4 seperate components (can't remember all of them). I just remember that legal sovereignty was one of the 4 parts. Oh "mana whenua" or land guardianship was another. Anyway they agreed to hand over about half the parts to Maori and keep the other half. So it was a compomise.

[candor]

Deano - no they were friendly. Treaty is not always for war. The Maori had sought one so that pisshead traders / whalers etc could be kept under control by the Brits as they were a problem and headache. They also thought a treaty would bring some settlers which they wanted - but in a contrlled way not like a flood. Also some tribes were pretty pissed about arms dealing as other tribes were running round wiping tribes out, so they wanted this nipped in the bud but could not deal with it using their own usual mechanisms.

PS - I wonder if some horrible circumcision ritual is how that poor little Charlene girl was murdered in CHCH?

Civil rights are a European concept - they are based on the underlying core value of autonomy - this is cultuarally traceable to Western civilisations.

"Personally, I have had too many personal experiences of racism growing up and also in my job - I shouldn't be made to feel responsible for something my (and your) ancestors did or didn't do."

I call that 'revenge racism' - like a relative of mine says - he joined the gangs and raped heaps of pakehas and burgled heaps of rich pakehas - but it didn't make him feel better. The point is not to feel responsible as you aren't for the past but it helps to understand why stuff happened and how it was uncool or as the cliche goes we ae in danger of repeating.

Racism is not doning a white hood and going out to burn crosses and terrorise darkies - it is much more insidious than that. It can be as subtle as what I saw yesterday. Indiabn daiy owner watching maori teen like a hawk and telling him not to handle items unless buying. I myself often pick up then change mind and put down again. People can also be racoist or discriminate against themself.

[Ixion]

The Maoris were not at war with the British , because officially there were no British there to be at war with. Until 1840 as far as Gt Britain was concerned , NZ was in the same status as Antarctica . If you were a British subject and you went there, you were on your own.

Various of the Maori tribes actively sought the protection of the Crown, because other tribes were obtaining firearms (inter alia, from my ancestors), and so armed were wiping the others out left right and centre. The Crown actively tried to avoid getting involved in NZ (they were fearful of trouble with the USA, and didn't see any benefit).

I will not venture to comment on how the Maori may have viewed proceedings. But it is quite certain that the British regarded the treaty as establishing British suzereinty over the Islands and extending the rights AND DUTIES of British subjects ot the natives (so that Brits could no longer kill the Maori without being answerable to the law - as they could before the treaty) .Hobson was immediately appointed Governor of New Zealand - a position that would have been impossible if Whitehall did not regard New Zealand as British territory. And Hobson governed as the sole source of executive power. If he had conceived that his role was one of partnership with the Maori, he would have proceeded thus, as the British did (for instance) in China and Hong Kong. he did not, he proceeded as Governor of a British trerritory, populated by British subjects. And he was the man on the spot, dealing with a real world reality in his own life time.


I doubt that men as shrewd as the Maori chiefs really believed that the British would be such muggins as to agree to do all the dirty work with no quid pro quo. It always astonishes me that Maori protagonists portray the Maori (whose position they are advocating) as total simpletons,with no understanding at all of the realities of life. I suppose it is all part of that "Noble Savage" nonsense. The pre-treaty Maori chiefs were anything but the doddering idiots that their champions would paint them as. I would be very very certain that they would make quite sure that they knew exactly what they were entering into.They were shrewd intelligent men of the world - and we see in the arguments put forward by some of them against signing the treaty , that they did indeed understand exactly what was involved. If , as you argue, the Maori believed that they were giving up nothing whatsoever by signing the treaty , why were so many of them (including my ancestors) so very opposed to signing?

[candor]

Because they were the paranoid ones. They did not believe that what was written on the paper is what the pakehas truly meant - why? Because the odd missionary allies advised them it could be trickery.

The treaty or the bible - which to chose. The bible said Tainui.

Others however clearly thought they'd thrashed out a good deal. Why would they think they were not acting in a good faith trade off. You guys can come here - we'll offer food and land to the level of hospitality we can handle, in return you control your rabble and bring some (more) of the good skills we can learn from your culture.

C'mon - not every one was smart or worldliwise, not everyone was dumb or the naive noble savage as you put it. I'm sure there were all types around just as today.

When we as Westeners well used to written culture sign stuff - well I can say I have not ALWAYS read it thoroughly or considered it thoroughly. But if I noticed the main pont that worried me 'tino rangatiratanga' (sovereignty) was guaranteed to be retained I would prolly sig and not sweat the rest.

[candor]

They certainly would not have understood how land changes status under the Crowns suzerainty ='s not informed consent. I can not believe one Maori would have signed the treaty, even given they had heard the english version (sovereignty transferring) had they understood what this meant re land handling

1. Lands typically go into freehold titles under British system
2. The ultimate owner of all freehold titles is the Crown

As if this was understood it struck at the heart of Maori conceptions about the nature of reality, their place in it and right and wrong.

Whakapapa. You did not and could not give it up. Ancestral lands and lands that were ancestors would not be permanently sold - loaned yes, shared yes but your status and life force came from keeping the fires burning there, only if they had not been lit for (I think) 7 generations was it considered land had been abandoned and was free for the plucking.

[Ixion]

No. Because they DID believe it. Both my Maori and British ancestors opposed the treaty. The British ones because it totally ignored the rights of those (eg, them) who were already there, and had been in some cases for 20 or 30 years. Aggreements which they had reached with the Maoris (based on the premise that the Maori WERE a soverign entity) were rendered null and void. The Maori ancestors (ie the in laws of the Brits), opposed the treaty on the basis that those signing it were a bunch of traitors and Quislings (which they were) . They understood perfectly well what the signatories were signing away . And they heartily disagreed.

[candor]

"They understood perfectly well what the signatories were signing away . And they heartily disagreed".

So they read the English version? Can you substantiate that they understood and also scorned the kupapa? Oral tradition or some british standard evidence. I do hope this is not from the mouth of some brit historian. And isn't it bedtime?

Oh - were the euro ancestors married to the maori ones so offering good consultancy?

[Ixion]

They certainly would not have understood how land changes status under the Crowns suzerainty ='s not informed consent. I can not believe one Maori would have signed the treaty, even given they had heard the english version (sovereignty transferring) had they understood what this meant re land handling

1. Lands typically go into freehold titles under British system
2. The ultimate owner of all freehold titles is the Crown

As if this was understood it struck at the heart of Maori conceptions about the nature of reality, their place in it and right and wrong.

Whakapapa. You did not and could not give it up. Ancestral lands and lands that were ancestors would not be permanently sold - loaned yes, shared yes but your status and life force came from keeping the fires burning there, only if they had not been lit for (I think) 7 generations was it considered land had been abandoned and was free for the plucking.

None of that was relevant at the time the treaty was signed. English law perfectly understood the concept of non freehold land. Land held in common (cf, the English word "commons" for land held jointly by a community), copyhold and many other forms of non freehold tenure had formed a part of English law since the Middle Ages.

The treaty did not convert Maori land into freehold. That required a separate law passed much later (around the 1860s from memory, but I may be wrong).

Whether that later conversion was fair or not is an arguable point, but it has nothing to do with the treaty. And neither suzereinity nor sovereignty have anything whatsoever to do with any particular form of land tenure. Both are compatible with free hold, copyhold, tenure in sergeantry, tenure in joint, tenure in common, tenure in chivalry, tenure in free socage, trenure at grace, etc etc etc ,and those are just the English ones. English law also recognised a large number of others extant in Roman law.

If your argument is that Maoris were unfairly dispossed of their lands (though you will need to define "their") then you need to point your shafts several generations later. And consider carefully who betrayed who. The ONLY people deprived on any right in land by the treaty were the British who had acquired land prior to the treaty, who were dispossed at the stroke of the treaty pen, (once agin, my ancestors amongst then).

[Ixion]

"They understood perfectly well what the signatories were signing away . And they heartily disagreed".

So they read the English version? Can you substantiate that they understood and also scorned the kupapa? Oral tradition or some british standard evidence. I do hope this is not from the mouth of some brit historian. And isn't it bedtime?

Oh - were the euro ancestors married to the maori ones so offering good consultancy?

Who is "they"? The British side or the Maori side. Of course the British ancestors were married to the Maori ones (common law marriage , anyway) otherwise how could they both be ancestors?

I imagine they read the English version, and the Maori one. They were fairly shrewd buggers by all accounts. Why is oral tradition to be regarded as gospel when it accords with your views but dismissed when it diagrees? It is primarily from the mouth of my great-great-grandmother and my great-granduncles , who told it to me as a boy. And they in turn had it from their great grandparents , and so back.

[candor]

"The ONLY people deprived on any right in land by the treaty were the British who had acquired land prior to the treaty, who were dispossed at the stroke of the treaty pen, (once agin, my ancestors amongst then)."

Interesting. I did mot know freehold came later - what are you a lawyer!! Nighty.

[Clockwork]

It can be as subtle as what I saw yesterday. Indiabn daiy owner watching maori teen like a hawk and telling him not to handle items unless buying. I myself often pick up then change mind and put down again. People can also be racoist or discriminate against themself.

Why do you believe that it was his race that caused the shopkeeper to become defensive, could it not have been his gender, age or demeanour? Do you know if the shopkeeper and customer had a history? Maybe you have become conditioned to see racial slights where none exist. As, apparently I have.

[MisterD]

One thing that is an indisputable fact, despite what Helenvision NZ may have to say is that the flag in question is not "The Maori Flag" it is a Maori Flag.

I think it was John Tamihere that said the other night that "Flags aren't even a Maori thing".

Oh, and Dover I think they do fly the saltire on St Andy's day.

[The_Dover]

Ok, cool if they do.

I never had an issue with a frickin flag being flown, it's the seperatist, divisive train of thought of a bunch of watered down "natives" that fucks me off.

All citizens should have equal rights. That's all I'm saying. No one should be entitled to any more public money than anyone else. No one should receive reparation for historical "perceived" wrongs. Things were different in those days, some of us have evolved and expect democracy to follow the wishes of the majority.

[MisterD]

I agree wholeheartedly with you Dover...

[Dilligaf]

Actually Dover, just to really piss you off, I read this weekend that some Scottish fellow tried to get the Scottish flag flown on St Andrew's day but was told by transit that only "sovereign" nations would be able to have their flag flown..... then flew the Welsh flag on St (whatever's -:scratch: :slap: ) day.....
Tried to find it to link it, searched online in the Herald.

[Ixion]

,,
The treaty did not convert Maori land into freehold. That required a separate law passed much later (around the 1860s from memory, but I may be wrong).

,,
Native Land Act 1862, replaced by Native Land Act 1865 was the villain. This Act allowed for the conversion of land held under customary Maori title into freehold. Long after the Treaty, and admitted by the government to be in breach of it, so that authority had to be obtained from the Imperial government in London. Much land was seized forcibly under the New Zealand Settlements Act 1863, intended to deal with the lands of Maori in rebellion, but in practice used as a general pretext for land seizure. The treaty cannot be blamed for any of this. Note that there is still not inconsiderable amounts of land held under customary title .

[Ixion]

Actually Dover, just to really piss you off, I read this weekend that some Scottish fellow tried to get the Scottish flag flown on St Andrew's day but was told by transit that only "sovereign" nations would be able to have their flag flown..... then flew the Welsh flag on St (whatever's -:scratch: :slap: ) day.....
Tried to find it to link it, searched online in the Herald.

St David. And Scotland IS a sovereign state. God Save King Francis, King of Scotland.

[Finn]

My girlfriend and I experienced maori culture yesterday. We went for a ride through Clevedon, then around the coast past Beachlands. Don't know the name of the bay, but it's the first one you hit on the coast. Theres a marae there and there's a gathering I assume for Whytonguee day.

What a bunch of neandathols. Here's what we observed:

Black Power by the dozen. A stock of booze that would turn Dover maori. White mans dirt bikes and quad bikes ripping around a paddock (Stolen - probably) About 30 of them dressed in gang and street gear standing at the gate acting all staunch and proud (proud of what, I don't know). One monkey gave us the finger, the others did that nigger thing with their hand to signify that they are the NZ Chapter of some American gang. Enough babies around to make Angelina Jolie think she had died and gone to heaven. No sign of traditional maori costume or any elders.

My girlfriend who has only lived in NZ for 3 years just shakes her head and laughs. It's embarrasing.

Edit: I have just been informed by a very reliable source that they were Tribesman, not Bleck Power.

[The_Dover]

I'm glad I gave the beach a miss yesterday then.

[COP_B8]

I'm more than happy to speak about my experience. My whanau couldn't afford to support me through Uni (pre student loans and after). More Maori are poor=less access to education even with student loans cos they still have to be paid back. More Maori are from low education or working class households=less role models, less understanding of what it takes to succeed and less expectation that education or professional careers are available. I know that this doesn't only apply to Maori, and it doesn't stop people like me from getting through the system.

In an age of Interest free loans, I think the argument about not being able to afford University is irrelevant. You can receive a student loan to cover your course fees, student allowances to cover your living expenses, course related costs to cover books, computers etc…The less your family/whanua earn the more you are entitled too.



Once I got into Uni I experienced something of a culture shock. I was used to having almost daily contact with extended whanau and having a feeling of being actively involved in something bigger than me. Something that was more important than my personal priorities. An example of this would be me dropping everything to assist an extended family member experiencing health problems or having to stop and visit extended family if I was passing through their town. I better have a good excuse if I didn't.

This is not just a Maori issue; imagine being an international student travelling to a different country.



Being away from this was really hard for me. Luckily I had a GS1000 and home was just a fast trip away. I also struggled with the rigidity and individual, competitive focus at uni. This totally blew me away as I knew I was Pakeha (and very happy about it), but I was like a Hillbilly fresh from the boonies. I was raised to be humble (whakaiti) and a weird off-shoot of this was that getting good grades would make me feel like I was being whakahihi (big headed and showing off). Ever cruised through papers or held back in tutorials so your class-mates wouldn't feel belittled? .

Basically life... most of New Zealand is like that in the real world so why would a University not prepare you for it, in most of the courses I have done you are directly competing with the person sitting next to you for a place in the following years course, in one class, of those whom started only ½ could continue in the next year. I too am also like that, you try and appear less smarter than you are in order to fit in otherwise it is like the tall poppy syndrome, those that stand out above the rest will be chopped down.



It happened. When with non-Maori I learnt to watch what I said for a whole bunch of reasons. If I spoke of my beliefs about topics like why Maori do things the way we do, I would often end up having an argument I didn't want to have with people that I liked. So it was hard to be myself in a relaxed way. I'd get little oases and recharge myself by being involved with other Maori at Uni and getting home often. If an extended family member died I would be torn between attending the tangi ( often a several day commitment with travel time) and attending to my study.

The courses I studied often contained asumptions that didn't gel with the way I thought the world worked e.g. the professional boundaries of psychology, wellness being measured as an individual's issue without reference to others, the emphasis on the measurable and observable and the minimising of things like traditional belief systems (I think an understanding of both is important and has value. In my work, what I believe isn't half as important as what my client believes).

I disagree with a lot of what I am studying… It’s the Law, how can you agree. And with theories on criminal behaviour, for often what I study, write about and research is in fact not what I believe in however this is something that I have to do, there will be ethical dilemma’s in most subjects, Ive learnt so far at University that you do not only receive marks for conforming to these, but it is perfectly okay to question them and rationally argue it.



When I was studying, I wasn't just doing it for me. My whanau had an investment in my performance as well. Everything I do reflects on my family. If I fuck up, they have fucked up. That can make it scary to try because failing is so shameful.


That is very common, when I dropped out of university the first time (7 years ago) my parents were gutted, they would make excuses to tell people like, It wasn’t the right time for University for him, he wanted to experience the world a bit before university etc… I knew people who were scared of failing solely for what the parents would think of they did.



And I know this one might get an incredulous reaction, but I carry my ancestors with me. I have a responsibility to behave in a way that doesn't discredit them. This produces an interesting tension for me. I don't seriously believe that the ghosts of my Grandparents are standing at my shoulders, but they are. Doesn't make sense eh? Everybody responds to these kinds of presure in different ways and obviously not all Maori feel them, but trust me, get a bunch of Maori together and the large majority will know what these things are like, regardless of background and how traditional their upbringing has been.

I'm probably not providing enough information and it is very subjective, but the best summary I can give is that I really felt like an outsider, probably not just because of my mixed ethnicity but also because of my socio-economic background; and I also had commitments and stressors that non-Maori didn't have .


Possibly, however non-Maori also have differing stressors as well, my last year at university was also similar, I was an outsider given I was some 7 years older than most of the people studying, a “mature student,” I had the financial stress of having come from a very well paying professional job for the last couple of years [and the lifestyle attached to that] to student life with no full time employment, I had 3 best mates die in the later part of the year.



These debates use a strange mix of general statements, specific examples, and leaps of logic that are often contrary to other arguments we might make. I know that I will say things like people shouldn't make generalisations, then go ahead and make some of my own. Or get angry about people making "us and them" statements, then do exactly the same thing. I don't know how to resolve this especially with a topic that seems to trigger an emotion-charged self-protection mechanism. These issues don't have a single truth. All aspects of the debate have truth. Those who use resources should pay for them, but a society that cares for others without access to resources is a good society.

I have no problem assisting people who do not have access to resources such as student allowances for those people that otherwise could not afford to attend university. What I do however have a problem with is assisting people based on culture alone.



We should all be held accountable to a single set of laws, but we should also be able to express our identities and beliefs if we aren't hurting others. I want to live in a community that encourages and accepts diversity without being threatened. This will mean accepting some things that feel counter-intuitive like admission quotas, and there will be people that will rip the system off (from all ethnic groups).

Should then Asians have admission quotas, how about Samoans, Tongans, Pakeha’s…



Maori don't have a monopoly on struggle but for what it's worth we have a treaty that hasn't been honored. Statements about this being history and we should all move on, feel like a total invalidation of my experience and who I am. I don't think this is people's intention but that is what it feels like. Nobody sensible wants the clock wound back and many people are getting on with it. It's the only way. But it would be good to have my history and experience validated. Another good one is "It's the law get over it". That's pre-adolescent level reasoning and all of us can think of examples of when the law is an ass. Speeding or Greg Carvel anyone? It's also ok to say "I don't get it but I know that it's real for you", or "I don't get it, but what's it really going to cost me?". I also think that there are shitheads in all groups within NZ, but the Good C***ts out-number the fuckers.
I figure that I have to set an example of being open about an important issue like this and walk the talk. I also appreciate that people on this thread have had the courage to express honest opinions. In saying that, I'm pretty tired of the energy required and I think this will be my last lengthy post in this thread. The OP rum calls. Congratulations to anyone that had the stamina to read this. I hope it made some sense.

Overall I see your points however although University may have been a challenge for you, for many different reasons, one being cultural the reality is that it is a challenge for almost everyone. New Zealand schooling does not adequately prepare most people for University. It is competitive, and a high degree of self-motivation is needed, unlike school, which is almost the complete opposite. Any person of any culture can struggle with coming from a different social background, learning new and sometimes objectionable things, or confirming to University life. To say that Maori deserve a special exemption is in my is just over political correctness.

[COP_B8]

Double POst :(

[Edbear]

The Maoris were not at war with the British...etc.



Another issue for the Chiefs at the time was they saw a choice between the French and the British. It was becoming fairly obvious that the Maori were going to have to form some agreement with either nation and most felt that the British were the better of the two to deal with - the lesser of two evils, I suppose.

The general hope was that the British would honour a Treaty and deal more fairly with them. Reading the two versions of the Treaty provides some interesting insights into the politicking that went on and one can see how interpreting it has been a real gravy train for the Lawyers!

It is obvious that principles, honour and trust have little place in politics and in the making of agreements and contracts.

[Citroenjunkie]

"It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country."

I emigrated to New Zealand from South Africa to get away from small minded people who couldn't simply live and let live.

No one is better than anyone else, and as a rule I find Kiwis the most amazing, accepting and respectful people who are secure and confident enough to make space for everyone.

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

[Patrick]

I choose to treat people based on who they are, not what they are.


:gob: :laugh: :killingme :rofl: That explains your digs at D50 and our kind... TUI anyone????

[Macktheknife]

"It's not about bagging Maori people they have a right to their cultural history, but so does everyone else in this country."

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

I could not agree more, do away with the PC bullshit and let us get on with creating the kind of country and society that will make us all proud to belong to. The past cannot be changed, some recompense is appropriate BUT, the attempts to create cultural fear and shame are preposterous and damaging to our collective future. I am white, I make no apology for it. I know my history and culture and can trace my family back for nearly a thousand years across 4 countries and I'm still working on it. I am proud of knowing who they are and where they come from and that most of what they did was ok in that time, some of it was pretty shocking too. But I do not attempt to hide from that nor deny it ever took place. We cannot move on and develop as humans or as a society without acknowledging our past, but there is nothing to be gained by wailing and gnashing of teeth over things that cannot be changed. Nor is there any value in using any perceived wrongs of the past to justify abusive and dangerous behaviour now.
That applies to anyone of any culture/ethnicity/race.
Acknowledge your past, honour your forebears however you will, then get on with the present because it waits for no-one.

[The_Dover]

:gob: :laugh: :killingme :rofl: That explains your digs at D50 and our kind... TUI anyone????

Well, Paddy me old china, do you see me digging at any of the other pigs on this forum?

Nope, it's because Diana bites back like a good'un. Except with ever so slightly retarded come backs like I get from Vicky's 5 year old daughter. Only she's more eloquent.

[Finn]

Bending over blackwards benefits no one

The white kiwi contortionists think it does. Odd.

[Bonez]

Interesting tid bits in this blog - http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2004/09/another_bet.html

[doc]

My girlfriend and I experienced maori culture yesterday. We went for a ride through Clevedon, then around the coast past Beachlands. Don't know the name of the bay, but it's the first one you hit on the coast. Theres a marae there and there's a gathering I assume for Whytonguee day.

What a bunch of neandathols. Here's what we observed:

Black Power by the dozen. A stock of booze that would turn Dover maori. White mans dirt bikes and quad bikes ripping around a paddock (Stolen - probably) About 30 of them dressed in gang and street gear standing at the gate acting all staunch and proud (proud of what, I don't know). One monkey gave us the finger, the others did that nigger thing with their hand to signify that they are the NZ Chapter of some American gang. Enough babies around to make Angelina Jolie think she had died and gone to heaven. No sign of traditional maori costume or any elders.

My girlfriend who has only lived in NZ for 3 years just shakes her head and laughs. It's embarrasing.

Edit: I have just been informed by a very reliable source that they were Tribesman, not Bleck Power.
Thats what you get when you ride a honda, (Remember the advertisements
You meet the nicest people on a Honda) mind you thats when Gay meant Happy.

[doc]

It's alright for most of you of New Zealand origin or whatever. As a Shiftworker I am unable to participate in the celebration of Waitangi Day. Some of you may just view this as a Pakeha day off. I however must put up with slaving away for 9 Hours at triple time plus a Lieu day. I will looking out the window and praying that forecast rain happens FCUK you all. Just realized I have to work the whole of Easter as well.You Bastards.

[Aero165]

I agree!!! I think that some people get away with to much in this country because they call themselves "maori"

[elle-f]

DOC *gasps* surely you cannot wish rain on us all during those times!:laugh:

[Patrick]

Well, Paddy me old china, do you see me digging at any of the other pigs on this forum?

I'd have to go back through time... can't be bothered... I'm sure there has been (me included...):whocares:

[The_Dover]

I'd have to go back through time... can't be bothered... I'm sure there has been (me included...):whocares:

I mean at every chance I get you tit.

[Colapop]

After today - yes, I'm fucking pissed off!

For all the talk that has been in this thread about who comes from where and who belongs to what group or not and why, who has said that this country is divided or not - take a look around you!

Waitangi day or NZ day as some liberals call it (to appease others) is a load of BULLSHIT! It's supposed to be a public holiday to celebrate our country, Te Papa (Our place). Quit fucking fooling yourselves! This isn't "Our Place" as long as we (as a community/society) condone the actions of the shit stirring, divisive, separatist wankers that think they have a right to disturb the public of this country. I do not wish to take part in organised psuedo-Maori celebrations that involve Maori sovreignty being shoved down my throat (again).

I had occasion to be downtown Wellington today (Waitangi Park) and had activists handing out fucking literature about their 'cause'. Gimme a fucking break, I'm on holiday I don't need mormonista's trying to convert me! FUCK OFF! So I think I don't need the bullshit of these idiots and decide that Onehunga Bay (shelly bay as the locals call it) in Titahi Bay is a good choice to get away from the crowds and consequently activists that had decided to annoy me. WRONG. A convoy of wanktards turn up claiming that this is Maori day with their fucking sovereignty flags and continued BULLSHIT.

I've said it before - I AM NOT RACIST. I don't give a fuck where you come from as long as you abide by the laws of this country you can do as you wish - although it would be really nice if when in rome you at least tried to partially assimate your ways with those of the locals, so to speak.

Oh don't worry I've heard your protestations of fair deals for Maori and non-divisive intentions and that's just such a wonderful, peace, love and happiness way to view things. BUT the reality is that there are too many fucking wankers out there who think they have a given right to ram this shit down our fucking throats! If, as a society/community do not get off our fat arses and deal with this bullshit then we are going to have far more serious and divisive problems to deal with.

Try and tell me now that all that I've seen and heard is just a cry for help! For fucks sake lets sort this shit out once and for all and move on.

[mstriumph]

..................All citizens should have equal rights. That's all I'm saying. No one should be entitled to any more public money than anyone else. No one should receive reparation for historical "perceived" wrongs. Things were different in those days, some of us have evolved and expect democracy to follow the wishes of the majority.

i'd vote for you :yes:

[Macktheknife]

Try and tell me now that all that I've seen and heard is just a cry for help! For fucks sake lets sort this shit out once and for all and move on.

Well said Col, but sadly it won't happen that way. (which is the problem I guess) Because the bleeding heart liberal types bend over and take it up the arse every time some renegade separatist Maori activist decides to use terms like 'indigenous people' or 'Tangata Whenua' or 'breach of treaty' when it says nothing of the kind.
Maori are not the indigenous people of NZ, simple fact. Indigenous: originating in a particular region or country; native.
They arrived here after many others and killed off most of them, but not all. The only difference between Maori and me is the colour of skin and the exact length of time living here. As far as I am concerned, the Europeans did much the same to them as they did to those they attacked, with the exception of not using Maori as slaves or eating them.
Do we hear of claims from the earlier people the Maori subjugated? NO. Would the so-called Maori-nation types front up if there was such a claim, and take responsibility for their ancestors actions? (even those of another Iwi)
I will just have a Tui shall I?
Maori sovereignty is a load of shite, grow up and share like everyone else had to, or fuck off, you will get no sympathy here.

[Clivoris]

In an age of Interest free loans, I think the argument about not being able to afford University is irrelevant. You can receive a student loan to cover your course fees, student allowances to cover your living expenses, course related costs to cover books, computers etc…The less your family/whanua earn the more you are entitled too.

This is not just a Maori issue; imagine being an international student travelling to a different country.

Basically life... most of New Zealand is like that in the real world so why would a University not prepare you for it, in most of the courses I have done you are directly competing with the person sitting next to you for a place in the following years course, in one class, of those whom started only ½ could continue in the next year. I too am also like that, you try and appear less smarter than you are in order to fit in otherwise it is like the tall poppy syndrome, those that stand out above the rest will be chopped down.

I disagree with a lot of what I am studying… It’s the Law, how can you agree. And with theories on criminal behaviour, for often what I study, write about and research is in fact not what I believe in however this is something that I have to do, there will be ethical dilemma’s in most subjects, Ive learnt so far at University that you do not only receive marks for conforming to these, but it is perfectly okay to question them and rationally argue it.

That is very common, when I dropped out of university the first time (7 years ago) my parents were gutted, they would make excuses to tell people like, It wasn’t the right time for University for him, he wanted to experience the world a bit before university etc… I knew people who were scared of failing solely for what the parents would think of they did.

Possibly, however non-Maori also have differing stressors as well, my last year at university was also similar, I was an outsider given I was some 7 years older than most of the people studying, a “mature student,” I had the financial stress of having come from a very well paying professional job for the last couple of years [and the lifestyle attached to that] to student life with no full time employment, I had 3 best mates die in the later part of the year.

I have no problem assisting people who do not have access to resources such as student allowances for those people that otherwise could not afford to attend university. What I do however have a problem with is assisting people based on culture alone.

Should then Asians have admission quotas, how about Samoans, Tongans, Pakeha’s…

Overall I see your points however although University may have been a challenge for you, for many different reasons, one being cultural the reality is that it is a challenge for almost everyone. New Zealand schooling does not adequately prepare most people for University. It is competitive, and a high degree of self-motivation is needed, unlike school, which is almost the complete opposite. Any person of any culture can struggle with coming from a different social background, learning new and sometimes objectionable things, or confirming to University life. To say that Maori deserve a special exemption is in my is just over political correctness.
We probably agree more than we disagree. I agree that these are not just Maori issues, but I take the perspective that Maori are more likely to be disadvantaged than Pakeha/European New Zealanders. The stats are out there and I can't be bothered chasing them up. I believe that this disadvantage is a direct consequence of colonisation and a culture that has a tendency for different priorities, and it would be nice if it was acknowledged and corrected some-how. However, it would be a pretty clever trick to this well without causing problems, and you're probably right that ethnicity based initiatives are too clumsy, but I don't have the answers. Heaps of good stuff has been done already and even if nothing else is done Maori are moving forward anyway.

This is a complex issue complicated by the different starting places that we all have. It would be nice, but boring, if we all believed the same things and behaved in the same ways. In the meantime I'll enjoy being able to talk about these things with people that are willing to try on different ideas. I should probably be willing to do that myself.

[Clivoris]

After today - yes, I'm fucking pissed off!


Don't let em get to you Colapop. Life's too short to get wound up by people expressing an opinion loudly.:ride:

[candor]

Colapop - you mean you were not prepared with printouts of this thread to exchange with the over excited radicals? Party pooper you.

[Lou Girardin]

Does Tino Rangitiratanga also involve self funding of the Maori state and renegotiation of all recent treaty settlements?
After all, we don't want to contribute taxpayer funds to a foreign state. Do we?

[MisterD]

Observation from yesterday: I think it may be time to consign Maori Culture to the National Archives, it seems that on the basis of pure numbers Maori culture is now wannabe LA gangsters and rastafarians.

[Colapop]

Don't let em get to you Colapop. Life's too short to get wound up by people expressing an opinion loudly.:ride:
I don't mind people expressing an opinion, but to shout down anyone who has a view that is different (right or wrong) is crap. It would also help that those expressing their opinion actually have a well reasoned debatable point of view to express - instead of just making noise to hear their own 'cultural' voice!

[Paul in NZ]

I don't mind people expressing an opinion

Well you wouldn't guess it from reading you post Col...

Look - on the overall scale of things I'm more in your camp than anyplace else BUT - you have to admit that the 'demands' of Maoridom and the way the who thing has been handled thus far is a credit to this country. Yeah a few get a bit stroppy and wave flags etc but thus far no ones been shot, blown up or kidnapped.

New Zealanders are a pretty pragmatic bunch and we will find a way through this - we have to and I for one think things are getting better. Sure, the treaty thing is a bit of a gravy train for some but just like Orphanages attract the odd kiddy fidler - there will always be ratbags exploiting good and just causes for their own ends.

Instead of getting upset with a few flags - maybe we could try and understand what Maori Sovereignty really means? The leaders of Maoridom all have a different take on it as do we. It may well mean that withing certain boundaries maoridom has the responsibility to undertake certain functions, much like a City Council has responsibilty for parking or roadin inside a city limit - who knows.

Better for people to wave a few flags, pass out a few leaflets and go for a walk on a nice sunny day than have them blowing up railway stations.

Me? I went to kaitoke with vicki and we took a picnic. Parked next to a maori family and a tree. There was a Chinese family one down and some touists enjoying the sun and the water - pretty good shit really.

[Colapop]

I know what you're saying and although I get a little hot under the collar on occasion, I do enjoy well reasoned debate. I just have had any real life stuff. It's just been a case of "shove it down their thoats - they will see things our way". Well reasoned debate is healthy, and an important part of democracy.

I just think there are better ways of getting their message across than the methods used yesterday.

[Paul in NZ]

I just think there are better ways of getting their message across than the methods used yesterday.

From a marketting point of veiw it was effective - it's top of mind to you today!

[Colapop]

The shit stirrers are top of mind over a period of time for me - where's my and my wall! I've got a list....

[Paul in NZ]

The shit stirrers are top of mind over a period of time for me - where's my and my wall! I've got a list....

Meh! Todays shit sirrers are tomorrows visionary leaders

[MisterD]

Meh! Todays shit sirrers are tomorrows visionary leaders

Today's shit stirrers are tomorrows fat sell-out politicians.

Exhibit A: Hone Harawira :laugh:

[Paul in NZ]

Today's shit stirrers are tomorrows fat sell-out politicians.

Exhibit A: Hone Harawira :laugh:


Dunno about that - I prefer a pragmatic 'lets see what we can do to move forwards' to a 'burn baby burn' guy...

[Colapop]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=919665#post919665

I raise this thread as a reminder. We should not be divided by shit stirrers.

One country, one law, that applies to ALL people regardless of race creed or culture. Celebrate your culture, hold true to the values of your creed, value the strengths of your history. Together we are strong.

[Morcs]

As a relative outsider I can give an outside view on the whole things.

These arent necessarily my opinions ( i have a few maori mates too) but the general picture ive gotten.


Where do I start? From watching the news (most rapings, burglaries etc..) tend to be maoris or islanders, all the worst parts of auckland (eg. Otara) are so dodgy and are inhabited by maori, most of the dodgy looking dudes driving round in shitbox cages are maoris too...

So I get the impression that in general these guys are up to no good - and they give themselves the public image of being the scum of the earth.

So then I hear them bleeting on about special rights and all that crap.

I read some shit the other day about a women dying from a 'spirit cleansing ritual' police tip toeing around it as its culture related. Bollocks. They killed her.

So basically they give themselves a really bad public image, then think they have superior rights?

NOTE EVEN AUUUU!