a request from a couple of racers.

[FROSTY]

Tonite I had a couple of comments about track conduct on open days.
Could we please try to show consideration whilst on the track.
It would seem a couple of the race guys out practicing had some heart stopping moments when "road guys"
suddenly braked on straights or backed off mid corner -not normally an issue but it seems they did so whilst 3 and 4 wide on the track and so blocking all possible escape routes.
On the flip side the other comment was that the speed in general seems to be coming up to almost race pace.

[Two Smoker]

Sorry thats probably my RG, im not braking its just that im going so slow it seems like im braking..... and the mid corner thing is when my peg digs in :disapint: But on the other note, who was the one that went around the outside of a GSX-R600 :whistle: .........

[Paul in NZ]

Then again.... Look at the other side.... :D

How about some of the racers showing a bit of consideration to street riders who may be experiencing their first time on the track, which we all know can be a bit daunting. Track day is not race day practise round...

Now, while the soap box is out....

The 3 open / track days I have been to here were enough to convince me that I'm not really a racer and that I would never do one again. I thought the organisers (who were racers) were a bunch of slack bastards who were more interested in sucking up to the other "racers" than they were interested in providing an entertaining and safe day out to mr and mrs public that turned up and paid.

At one stage, race bikes were let out with the slow group. Everyone else saw it and went aye aye we can get a few extra laps in here boys and so next slow group session you had open class bikes out mixing it up with youngsters that had been riding for a year or so. Some of the total tossers were buzzing these poor buggers deliberately I though. Some of them were so traumatised they just went straight home after that. They won't be back.

Personally, I think there has to be a better way.

I'm a jumped up officious bastard but I'd do something like a large coloured square on the headlight to identify which group you are in. You can only change groups by express permission... I dunno...

There is no way I'd ride my Guzzi on the track with any modern bike. The lines and techniques are so different it's a disaster waiting to happen (no, hang on, thats me)... But you know what I mean....

The mighty Guzzi can hit maybe 160 to 175 on the front straight at manfield and I need to brake earlier and take a more traditional line. Being passed by someone that has at least 70kph on me and can leave braking for another 50m is bloody stupid for both of us....

Similarly, I have been flat knacker on a VTR in the same place and had a returning rider wobble in from the edge of the track in front of me.. Fark!

I'd love someone to get this sorted out. No, I'm not a softy or an appologist but I have been on the recieving end of both and it's no fun for anyone. If someone got seriously hurt, it could be the end of track days...

Just my opinion of course, your experience may differ...

[Drunken Monkey]

On one side, fair 'nuff. Probably relates to this incident:
I do recall a particular moment where I came up quickly down the straight on 2 small bikes doing around 190 - I was going to split them and the guy on the left decided to suddenly close the gap. With my limited experience, I backed off lacking the confidence to buzz through a gap about a bike and a half wide at 250+, only to have some thou buzz me and run the gap anyway. Saw him shaking his head as he left...

On the ther hand, I'm not making any excuses for that. Open days are exactly that. You can go round as slow as you damn well want. There are dedicated practice days for racers. If people don't get a chance to skill up to at least a basic level on a quiet open day, we're left with trying to mix it up with a lot of hard-core racers on practice day = I'm sure they'd appreciate this even less.

If we all turn up in big enough numbers, then the track marshal can split us up into roadies and racers and there won't be a problem. There's only a couple months left before we all miss out.

(post - um, yeah. What PaulNZ said - must've beaten me to it...)

[Drunken Monkey]

But on the other note, who was the one that went around the outside of a GSX-R600 :whistle: .........

There was some guy there on a shiny gixxer 6 with crash bungs, race-rep paint an' all - I think his aim for the day was to bust into the high 1:20's... :scooter: Fark, I think I lapped him more than the <250 class...

So in answer to your question: probably everyone.

[Quasievil]

Simple really split them up into Speed groups basded on rider capabilities

you register in your chosen speed group.

Thats what they do for cars, I was up there two weeks ago and the cars had three groups to drive in, yet Bikes all went out together, I thought personally the bikes looked well behaved ,but i wasnt riding

It seemed the day was set up for cars ,but to get more money in they gave a "token" 20mins per hour to the bikes with all on the track at once,complete with racers.

So the answer is demand speed groups like they do for Cars, simple (I hope):niceone:

[Drunken Monkey]

So the answer is demand speed groups like they do for Cars, simple (I hope):niceone:

Problem is numbers. Hard to justify giving the track to 4-6 (if there were even that many) dedicated large cc racers while a dozen of the rest of us (and about 30 cars) sit around having a wank...

[White trash]

Great comments guys but you are forgetting one thing.

The "track days" you attend at Puke, are in fact "test days". They are for racers to test their machines.

If you want to ride slowly, go to Track time.

[gav]

Down here at Ruapuna they sometimes run "Have A Go Days" you split into 3 groups, #1 no passing at all. #2 passing only on outside. #3 OK to pass either side, you choose abd can move from one group to another. Usually have a mock race last thing of the day. How about novices wearing fluro bibs?

[Paul in NZ]

Down here at Ruapuna they sometimes run "Have A Go Days" you split into 3 groups, #1 no passing at all. #2 passing only on outside. #3 OK to pass either side, you choose abd can move from one group to another. Usually have a mock race last thing of the day. How about novices wearing fluro bibs?

That sounds promising....

[FROSTY]

Great comments guys but you are forgetting one thing.

The "track days" you attend at Puke, are in fact "test days". They are for racers to test their machines.

If you want to ride slowly, go to Track time.
Um hang on guys lets not turn this into a shit fight.
Something to keep in mind about racers -It isn't uncommen to actually rub fairings in close racing. The need for track room is smaller -What to a road rider is a "close call" is an intergral part of racing.
DM me ol mate I can 100% assure you that it was NOT your lil manuouver that frightened them. It was commented on and put down as - fair nuff -shit happens (OH DM for the record you actually telegraphed your move well in advance.)the head shake was for the guy that suddenly decided to change track position.
It is erratic riding that is bloody scarey.
You ALL paid your money to be there from a learner licence holder to the guy on his ex ray clee gsxr1000. So you All have the right to be on the track
I guess the failing is in organisation -No riders brief to suggest how to ride.
GUYS lets NOT take it as an attack here -but a two way discussion--In other words --dont shoot the messenger.
Oh and the guy on the gsxr600- he is only 17 and had a HUGE off in the middle of the nationals.That was only his second ride since christmas time.
This Is why WE NEED bike only track days.
then the novices can have their own session
Personally I'd like to run lots more track days. You guys really havent noticed it but Ive noticed certain omongst the KB gang whose riding has come ahead leaps and bounds because of track days.

[FROSTY]

actually you know the fluro bit aint a bad idea.

[Drunken Monkey]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Frosty. Must just be my guilty conscience...

[White trash]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up Frosty. Must just be my guilty conscience...

Too fucken nice for your own good, mate.

[Drunken Monkey]

Great comments guys but you are forgetting one thing.

The "track days" you attend at Puke, are in fact "test days". They are for racers to test their machines.

If you want to ride slowly, go to Track time.

'Controlled testing' is the track management's term. That doesn't imply race practise to me (or do I infer? they make no implication?).
I knew of no less than 4 race and street/race cars that day that were doing laps plugged into a PC to sort out timing, mixtures & other engine management features. They were not practising for an up and coming meet.

Well I do my best to not annoy other users of the track...

I have also noticed the 'briefing for first timers' that the info sheet details doesn't ever seem to happen.

[FROSTY]

Look I dont wanna get into a silly arguement with mates BUT
Those test days are soposed to be for racecar/ racebike people to do the tweaking and fiddling a roadie can do anytime on the road.
Most often a racer wont be going full noise or anywhere near it.
As an example - One postie guy was trying to sort out his jetting and Pukie is good for one thing--that bloody long straight gives you the chance to sort stuff like that out.
Ill be out there on my zxr running in the new motor-I sure wont be fast
This is my entire point about organising our own track days.
We will have control over the format.

[750Y]

I must admit that sometimes it seems a 'free for all'.
i like being out there with racers cos they're predictable. I always try to leave the door open for them especially late into corners as I know how fast those guys are.
at first it scared me but now i enjoy it and i know they appreciate it also. You only need to circulate a few times getting lapped by the same riders before they get a feel for you and have some confidence that you aint gonna take them out unexpectedly.
I use my mirrors just so i can keep an eye on the fast guys and maintain some courtesy for them. I get to enjoy myself without feeling i'm in the way too much which is how it works for me. as for the unpredictable road riders who are all over the place, that is dangerous & i've encountered a couple like that.

[Hoon]

Those test days are soposed to be for racecar/ racebike people to do the tweaking and fiddling a roadie can do anytime on the road.

Yep last track day I was probably the slowest person there as I was sorting my front suspension. Next track I'll still be the slowest person as I need to sort my rear suspension now.

The fact is that we all just have to get along and compromise - everyones been slow before. If anyone gets pissed off with me getting in their way on a track day then Justin Timberlake has a song for you.

.....as long as its race/track related though. Playing silly buggers with your mates or acting unpredictably is not on.

[Drunken Monkey]

I use my mirrors just so i can keep an eye on the fast guys and maintain some courtesy for them. I get to enjoy myself without feeling i'm in the way too much which is how it works for me. as for the unpredictable road riders who are all over the place, that is dangerous & i've encountered a couple like that.

Interesting - I fold my mirrors in or remove them completely. I found people with mirrors saw you coming up on them at mach 3 and pulled over, when I, and I thought most racers as well, expected them to hold their line.

Frost-man, I don't think anyone's getting shitty about it - the tone of the thread probably just reads more negatively than its intent.

[FROSTY]

Thanks DM and Hoon you have it totally nailed. I can only speak for myself here but Predictability is MUCH more important than speed.
Id rather deal with an L plate rider who sticks to his line than a somewhat faster rider who is all over the track.
Logically the racers will know the track better than you guys and WILL find a way round you -as long as you don't suddenly lurch across the track
I must admit This Is a lesson I very painfully learned back when we had street racing around the Beumont street central city area.
I was racing 250 proddy on a tzr250 in a feild of 40 bikes.
I had a shit start then got held up by a guy crashing in front of me. By the time I was up and running again propperly the 4 lead bikes were howling down on me en mass. Number 1 and 2 leaned on me so I drifted way off line to let the other two through. Unfortunately and bloody painfully the 3 place rider had come in underneath me and was trying to slingshot ahead before the next corner. Needless to say neither of us finished that race.

[Darryboy]

Depending on the weather I'll be hitting the track tomorrow for my first time.

So the advice would be just to ignore everyone else on the track and just take the line I was originally taking?

Well maybe not ignore but you know what I mean.

[FROSTY]

Depending on the weather I'll be hitting the track tomorrow for my first time.

So the advice would be just to ignore everyone else on the track and just take the line I was originally taking?

Well maybe not ignore but you know what I mean.
Yep darry you got the idea.Stick to ya chosen line let the fast guys find a way round you

[Kickaha]

Depending on the weather I'll be hitting the track tomorrow for my first time.

So the advice would be just to ignore everyone else on the track and just take the line I was originally taking?

Well maybe not ignore but you know what I mean.


Dead right,the onus is on the passing rider to make sure his pass is safe,if you don't know the ability of the rider you're coming up behind then be a bit more careful,and if someone does something stupid don't just slag them off,offer advice as to how they can improve!.


Down here at Ruapuna they sometimes run "Have A Go Days" you split into 3 groups, #1 no passing at all. #2 passing only on outside. #3 OK to pass either side, you choose abd can move from one group to another. Usually have a mock race last thing of the day. How about novices wearing fluro bibs?

These are bike only days run by Motorcyling Canterbury and work very well,with experienced club riders circulating within the different groups to keep an eye on behaviour and offer advice to the riders, a riders briefing is always held and people are able to change groups during the day either up or down,each group is Identified by a coloured sticker.

[That Guy]

Hi guys, I've just read this thread with some interest, and in the end it has got to what I think is the correct conlcusion. I am an experienced expert level motocrosser, and for the first time this year I bought an old RGV and took it to Puke for a track day. I've done two days now. My intention is to go road racing, but there is no way I'm going to go to a race without a few practice days first. Nevertheless, compared to the 600 and thousand boys, at times at that track they have up to 100kph on me. A 100kph crash can be serious indeed - even going the same direction!

The shoe has been on the other foot for a long time in motocross, which is actually harder because jumping comes into play too as you can cometimes jump 4 or 5 times further than beginners.

The trick is for beginners - hold your line and do your own thing. Concentrate on riding smoothly, and consistently without sudden line changes. The onus is then 100% on the person passing to get it right, and don't worry as long as you ride smooth, they will get it right. It might scare the shite out of you as they blast by so close you can touch them with their pegs and knee buried in the tar mac (which by the way is damn impressive to watch!) but they do know what they are doing, and to them 1 metre is actually quite a lot of space - so long as they can trust you will not do anything stupid like suddenly baulk or sit up for no apparent reason.

Neither rider is entirely free of the responsiblity to avoid crashing into each other. Beginner road riders like me need to be able to go to Puke track days to learn how to ride, and F1 experts need to be allowd to get their $80 worth of track time too. There's no reason why we both can't co-exist safely, unless rider numbers get high - then they can be split by ability but with 25 riders turning up I'm not sure that that is enough?

Of more concern I reckon is how those blimmin drifters stuff up the track putting dirt evywhere....I don't pay $80 to hire a dirt track.....guess I could bring the mx bike instead....

Have fun - look foward to seeing some other beginner road racers at Puke in September! :niceone:

[Two Smoker]

Well put That Guy, exactly what i was thinking..... Ive been on both 600's and the opposite end with my 150..... It all comes to the rider and when i was passing slower riders/slower bikes, i tried to give them enough room and only passed when it was safe....

[FROSTY]

Hi guys, I've just read this thread with some interest, and in the end it has got to what I think is the correct conlcusion. I am an experienced expert level motocrosser, and for the first time this year I bought an old RGV and took it to Puke for a track day. I've done two days now. My intention is to go road racing, but there is no way I'm going to go to a race without a few practice days first. Nevertheless, compared to the 600 and thousand boys, at times at that track they have up to 100kph on me. A 100kph crash can be serious indeed - even going the same direction!

The shoe has been on the other foot for a long time in motocross, which is actually harder because jumping comes into play too as you can cometimes jump 4 or 5 times further than beginners.

The trick is for beginners - hold your line and do your own thing. Concentrate on riding smoothly, and consistently without sudden line changes. The onus is then 100% on the person passing to get it right, and don't worry as long as you ride smooth, they will get it right. It might scare the shite out of you as they blast by so close you can touch them with their pegs and knee buried in the tar mac (which by the way is damn impressive to watch!) but they do know what they are doing, and to them 1 metre is actually quite a lot of space - so long as they can trust you will not do anything stupid like suddenly baulk or sit up for no apparent reason.

Neither rider is entirely free of the responsiblity to avoid crashing into each other. Beginner road riders like me need to be able to go to Puke track days to learn how to ride, and F1 experts need to be allowd to get their $80 worth of track time too. There's no reason why we both can't co-exist safely, unless rider numbers get high - then they can be split by ability but with 25 riders turning up I'm not sure that that is enough?

Of more concern I reckon is how those blimmin drifters stuff up the track putting dirt evywhere....I don't pay $80 to hire a dirt track.....guess I could bring the mx bike instead....

Have fun - look foward to seeing some other beginner road racers at Puke in September! :niceone:
Well said dude :Punk:
I think thats all anyone can ask --stick to ya line and let the fast guys go past . and fast guys give the slower guys a tadd more room.

[wkid_one]

Great comments guys but you are forgetting one thing.

The "track days" you attend at Puke, are in fact "test days". They are for racers to test their machines.

If you want to ride slowly, go to Track time. Must agree with WT - I can't blame the racers being pissed if they are in fact using the 'Controlled Testing Sessions' to do some controlled testing - and idiots are fucking around on the track.

Whilst I agree with your comments in principal That Guy - they aren't TRACK DAYS......they ARE testing sessions - they are specifically designed for the 'everyday rider' to get his jollies on the track - they are designed for racers to complete runs for set-up, tyre selection etc.

If you are a novice racer not only stick to your line - but be predictable - don't brake on the straight, run wide on corners etc etc etc.

They should seperate 'road warriors' from racers so that the two don't mix on the track - which is just a recipe for disaster and will spoil it for everyone.

On a 1km track - 25 riders is plenty - almost too many if you have riders doing 1min laps and others doing 1.30s. The 1min guys are catching these guy every 1 and a bit laps - that is plenty to many!

[wkid_one]

Well said dude :Punk:
I think thats all anyone can ask --stick to ya line and let the fast guys go past . and fast guys give the slower guys a tadd more room.
So what you are saying here to paraphrase is 'Slow guys do what you want, the fast guys will make the compromises?'

[That Guy]

Must agree with WT - I can't blame the racers being pissed if they are in fact using the 'Controlled Testing Sessions' to do some controlled testing - and idiots are fucking around on the track.

Whilst I agree with your comments in principal That Guy - they aren't TRACK DAYS......they ARE testing sessions - they are specifically designed for the 'everyday rider' to get his jollies on the track - they are designed for racers to complete runs for set-up, tyre selection etc.

If you are a novice racer not only stick to your line - but be predictable - don't brake on the straight, run wide on corners etc etc etc.

They should seperate 'road warriors' from racers so that the two don't mix on the track - which is just a recipe for disaster and will spoil it for everyone.

On a 1km track - 25 riders is plenty - almost too many if you have riders doing 1min laps and others doing 1.30s. The 1min guys are catching these guy every 1 and a bit laps - that is plenty to many!

Ok...I think we're on the same wave length but I'd like to get your opinion on a couple of points:

track days vs test days. What say a beginner road racer like me is testing his own abilities (rather than bike)? Does that qualify? I started doing 1.30s, now I'm down to 1.15s which is still (VERY) slow for the 1000s but it's not too far away from being at the back of F3 (I think?). If I wasn't allowd to be there (noting of course at sign in nowhere is it mentioned about how fast you have to be etc) when I started with my slow 1.30s what to do? Your answer seems to be a Track time. Ok thats cool.

The next one though isn't until the 25th of October (from what I can find out). So are you suggesting I don't go racing until next year? That seems to me to be getting a bit hard.....might have lost interest by then.

Having race mx for 20 years now, I appreciate the beginners on the mx track when I'm out there practicing for the nationals, going a lot faster than they are, because I know that if they like it, they'll race too and thats good for everybody. Ok so they may stuff up your one hot lap - but we're not racing here. We're (sic) testing.

A further point here is that a good thing to practice for racing is NOT using your optimum line. It is actually good practice to have to sqaure a corner off a little here, or brake at a slightly different marker here in order to get past - a good racer can always get round a track with more than just one line, so you can always think of beginners in this positive light. Thats why Aprillia's RSV400 always got smoked against the 500s in GPs - the 400 could always do a fast lap time but it was a one line wonder. As soon as the rider had to try to sqaure corners off etc it got smoked because the 500s could squirt away. Anyway I digress.

I think a beginner sticking to a line is the important part. What the fast guy coming up on them has to realise is that the slow guy's lines AREN'T always predicatable because they are learning - the fast guy knows what the correct line is but the slow guy is still finding that out. The beginner may well think taking the apex at point A is being smooth - but in fact because that is 10 metres away from the correct apex point the fast guy thinks the slow guy is being unpredictable despite the slow guy's best efforts. This is what can piss the fast one off. You brake and nearly collide and mutter under your helmet - but remember, we were all that slow guy once and trying to learn.

If the experienced road racers can't be arsed (I hope not) to make an accommodation for well meaning beginners then possibly thats why compared to motocross in NZ, road racing is so poorly attended? Is it just too intimidating to get started in?

We get 400 riders at the big mx events (Woodville etc) perhaps road racing could take a leaf out of mx's book as to how they achieve this?

Don't get me wrong, the road racers I have met at the track the last two times have all been friendly and helpful.

I certainly agree eratic riding like braking for no reason on straights, weaving about etc is stupid and has no place on any track - but if those who can, aren't prepared to make any room for those who want to learn how, then thats a bit sad I think.

[Two Smoker]

The F3 guys and girls at the back do about 1:20-1:25's around puke, KK (kwaka-kid) does 1:11's and he is in the top 7ish.... the really fast guys do 1:07's.....

[Hoon]

And the really really fast guys like Terry Fitzgerald do 1:04.634 (http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=28054) !!

[Two Smoker]

BLOODY HELL!!!!!!! i dont care if its been bored out etc..... its still only a 450 and 1:04's!!!!!!!!!!! insane.....

[That Guy]

Hey thats good news about the lap times - I didn't know where I was at. Terry rides a SV650 (which is one trick machine by the way - GSXR front end, false fuel tank (its all air box) with the fuel tank in the chin spoiler, and many, many other mods. Plus he can ride very well! I think along with the Vic Club, AMCC has excluded SV650s from F3 though?

[FROSTY]

So what you are saying here to paraphrase is 'Slow guys do what you want, the fast guys will make the compromises?'
No Im NOT saying that at all .I am saying slow riders stick to a line whatever line you are on -be predictable -

[Coldkiwi]

yeah, predictablity is the key. I've done 5 days at puke now and i'm definitely getting some much better pace, to the point that I find I have to get around slower riders more often (although since I only did track time once, the first time riders are pretty rare).
I know its been mentioned, but my golden piece of advice to 1st timers is to fold the mirrors in or take them off. Having them on just makes the rider worried about whos going to blow by them and causes them to try get out the way (often at the last minute because the big bores/racers close so fast) and then you have a last minute maneouver that only ends with a pissed off racer and piss scared learner (at best). I saw two ladies on FXR's out there my first time; I had a ball but after the first session they were freaked because of watching the faster bikes closing on them. Next session, no mirrors, not a problem :)

as for people changing lines during corners... well I guess the fast riders just need to spend a few laps getting to know the slower riders and identifying which ones might be a hazard so they can give them a wide berth(?)

[gav]

Dont forget though for beginners finding that elusive fast smooth line is not that easy, I've found myself off line by tipping in too soon or braking too early or running too wide, so you have to expect that a novice isnt always going to be too predictable or predictably he/she will be unpredictable. Be nice for guys at times to "tow" them around for a bit and try and help them out, rather than scaring the shit out of them and moaning about it.