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paulj
8th February 2007, 05:33
My 96 DR650 with about 16,000 on the clock, has gearbox whine under load in 3rd. I’ve seen it mentioned in one or two other groups, without further comment - maybe it is just a DR ‘thing’? – however I plan to lay-up my bike over the winter and do some basic maintenance – fork seals, frame repairs, electrics … - wondering if the gearbox should be cracked open and checked too?

Crisis management
8th February 2007, 06:42
Must be the time of year...my 2003 with 4,000km has a 3rd gear whine which I started noticing last week. Ok experts should we panic?

Previous DR (96 with 25,000km) didn't have any strange gearbox noises, mind you, it had the worlds loudest exhaust so maybe I just couldn't hear it.....

cooneyr
8th February 2007, 07:27
Finally somebody else mentions the same thing. I too have whine in third when under load. Worse at low to mid revs and not so bad at high revs. I've got a 97 (reg as 98) with 16000kms. The wine started at about 13000kms

Tried two different oils but no difference. Nobody on Yahoo DR650 group seems interested or knows anything.

I not certain on this but my guess from reading the workshop manual (page 3-38) is that there is a bush under the third driven gear. It is specifically mentioned on that page that the bush is to be aligned so that the oil hole is in line with the oil hole on the shaft. The bush doesn't appear to be splined so I would guess it can rotate hence the oil holes get out of alignment. I would guess this could result in a "dry" bushing, hence wear and noise. I've listened to the whine a bit now and the noise seems to me to be consistent with a worn bush (not that I have much experience to go on).

I'm still riding it without fixing and am not sure when I should repair but any suggestions welcome. Whine doesn't seem to be getting any worse at this stage.

Cheers R

P.S. manual available from Yahoo DR650 group pages and here http://www.deakin.edu.au/~mic_adm/DR650.pdf - it is 84mb of download though.

Crisis management
8th February 2007, 07:35
Thanks Ryan, for the info.
If it is a dry bush then it won't get any better and will need fixing. I assume this means a complete strip down as nothing is accessible without spliting the cases. Last time I looked at this it got into the "need special tools" category and I got the local dealer to do a strip & re-assembly (I needed to do a weld repair on a case) and this cost @ $550.

Any other way to get a manual? The suzuki one is $150 and I have tried other electronic manuals before with no success. I just tried your link but can't get the download to work, I just get a blank screen without any info downloaded.
Anyone got a workable idea????

XF650
8th February 2007, 08:25
I have slight 3rd gear whine in my XF650 (basically same motor as DR650) and my manual also mentions the oil hole alignment. Bike has done 22,000 km's but in the time I have owned it (last 8,000km's) the whine hasn't got any worse.
I'm more concerned about engine vibration that has developed since re-jetting & opening up the air box.

cooneyr
8th February 2007, 08:26
Thanks Ryan, for the info.
If it is a dry bush then it won't get any better and will need fixing. I assume this means a complete strip down as nothing is accessible without spliting the cases. Last time I looked at this it got into the "need special tools" category and I got the local dealer to do a strip & re-assembly (I needed to do a weld repair on a case) and this cost @ $550.

Any other way to get a manual? The suzuki one is $150 and I have tried other electronic manuals before with no success. I just tried your link but can't get the download to work, I just get a blank screen without any info downloaded.
Anyone got a workable idea????

Was expecting but not looking forward to the comments on rebuild. Nobody has confirmed my "theory" yet so I've been reluctant to spend the toy budget on such a fix. Might be inevitable though. Maybe we should contact Suzuki NZ to see if they have any comments. How do I go about this?

I had a go at the manual link and it seems to work fine for me? Just checked the Yahoo DR650 group and see they don't have the manual - opps. If desperate PM me your address and I'll burn a CD.

Cheers R

Crisis management
8th February 2007, 08:50
I will contact Colemans (Suzuki agent) here and see if I can pry something out of the mechanic there, at least we will know if it's a problem or not. Give me a day or two to do that. I'll try that manual link again and if unsuccessful will PM you.

Iain

pete376403
8th February 2007, 11:02
another site you may wish to try for info is www.advrider.com, llok in the "thumpers" section

far queue
8th February 2007, 21:21
Mine's an '03 at around 13000k and it's fine thanks :bleh:

You could try the DR forum (http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=41) on Thumpertalk.com as well, lots of DR650 owners there that may be able to help.

paulj
9th February 2007, 06:16
I not certain on this but my guess from reading the workshop manual (page 3-38) is that there is a bush under the third driven gear. It is specifically mentioned on that page that the bush is to be aligned so that the oil hole is in line with the oil hole on the shaft. The bush doesn't appear to be splined so I would guess it can rotate hence the oil holes get out of alignment. I would guess this could result in a "dry" bushing, hence wear and noise. I've listened to the whine a bit now and the noise seems to me to be consistent with a worn bush (not that I have much experience to go on).



Yeah - I see what you mean about that bush - although it would be unusual to not have the bush captive in some way if the oil hole is to remain aligned. But on reflection, wear on one side of the bush would allow the gear train to misalign with its mate and that certainly would make the gear noisy, especially under load.

And what's a bush doing in the main drive path? Surely this would be a ball bearing? - in my experience (admittedly limited) bushes are used on layshaft and other less-loaded shafts etc ...

Well ... I'm not alone it seems - this could be a good winter project!

merv
9th February 2007, 07:18
You're not giving me much confidence in the Suzuki product here boys making it sound like it has design flaws. Funny that's just what I had issues with when I owned my DR250R, it just had too many design flaws. So far Mrs merv's DR650 seems OK (its a 2004) but in comparison to even my Honda 250 it sounds like a rattly bucket of bolts and its not as smooth in the engine department i.e. it vibrates more, so I've just taken that as standard Suzuki and take no notice of it.

cooneyr
9th February 2007, 08:04
Yeah - I see what you mean about that bush - although it would be unusual to not have the bush captive in some way if the oil hole is to remain aligned. But on reflection, wear on one side of the bush would allow the gear train to misalign with its mate and that certainly would make the gear noisy, especially under load.

And what's a bush doing in the main drive path? Surely this would be a ball bearing? - in my experience (admittedly limited) bushes are used on layshaft and other less-loaded shafts etc ...

Well ... I'm not alone it seems - this could be a good winter project!

The only gear box I've have prior experience with is a Series 2A landy box I rebuilt - kinda different. It did have pins to retain bushes but they often broke when worn. The bush is on the driven shaft (not drive) but I hear what you mean about being on the main drive path.


You're not giving me much confidence in the Suzuki product here boys making it sound like it has design flaws. Funny that's just what I had issues with when I owned my DR250R, it just had too many design flaws. So far Mrs merv's DR650 seems OK (its a 2004) but in comparison to even my Honda 250 it sounds like a rattly bucket of bolts and its not as smooth in the engine department i.e. it vibrates more, so I've just taken that as standard Suzuki and take no notice of it.

If you compare the DR650 to the 1986 XL250R I had I know what I'd rather have - not a fair comparison though LOL :dodge:

I've checked thumper talk, advrider, yahoo DR650 group and only found one mention of a 3rd gear whine - is was on the Yahoo group by a guy in ausi. Seems nobody in America has ears or the problem. I'm wondering if it is limited to Australian models (I'm assuming that we get Ausi models given no NZ country code on page 1-9 of the manual).

Keen to hear how the talk with Colmans went - Sportzone down here are not very helpful.

Cheers R

Crisis management
9th February 2007, 09:50
Mine's an '03 at around 13000k and it's fine thanks :bleh:

Bastard, hope you have a gravity attack.....

I have talked to the mechanic at Colemans:
First the general disclaimer....This guy has done work for me before and I have found him reliable but he is only giving a comment on this problem based upon a conversation. I didn't take the bike in for him to check.

Comment was; Not heard a lot of this problem but has not had to rebuild or repair any DR's for such a problem. His advice was to keep an eye on it but carry on riding, he didn't think it would need any repair.

So, my decsision is to keep using and abusing it but keep an ear open for any real change.

cooneyr
9th February 2007, 10:16
Bastard, hope you have a gravity attack.....

Dont worry FQ has enough of those moments aye FQ :dodge: He's lucky I didnt ride over him last time we all went for a ride.


I have talked to the mechanic at Colemans:
First the general disclaimer....This guy has done work for me before and I have found him reliable but he is only giving a comment on this problem based upon a conversation. I didn't take the bike in for him to check.

Comment was; Not heard a lot of this problem but has not had to rebuild or repair any DR's for such a problem. His advice was to keep an eye on it but carry on riding, he didn't think it would need any repair.

So, my decsision is to keep using and abusing it but keep an ear open for any real change.

Thanks for the info from Colemans. I'm in monitor mode anyway so will continue to do so until something changes. Just have to go faster and use 4th instead and minimise time in 3rd. :yes:

Cheers R

far queue
9th February 2007, 13:48
Bastard, hope you have a gravity attack.....I manage to do so quite well without your good wishes thankyou very much


Dont worry FQ has enough of those moments aye FQ :dodge: He's lucky I didnt ride over him last time we all went for a ride.
As I keep telling you, you guys just arn't trying hard enough. If you don't come off occasionally then your not pushing the envelope enough. Of course it could be that my envelopes a bit smaller than others.

Anyway, as you were, I'll let you all get back to your whining :whistle:

Expert
9th February 2007, 18:19
Whining in third gear is likely to be the meshing third gears losing their case hardening and getting noisy.
If a bearing was going all gears would be noisy because all bearings in the gearbox are turning when you are riding.
No modern bikes use bushes for any loaded shafts in the gearbox, bushes only being used for bushing not acting as a bearing.
Keep an eye on the filter or magnetic sump plug for shiny metal particles and budget for replacement.

Crisis management
9th February 2007, 20:05
Thats put the cat amongst the bloody pigeons...

Good point, it doesn't sound like a gear whine tho....more like a bearing noise but only occurs in 3rd....so I suppose you could be correct.

Seems an odd gear to break down tho, 1st is the usual suspect at hardening failure as it has the highest point loads.

I'm NOT pulling the thing apart! I'll play the politician and wait until it screws itself and blame something else :bleh:

Expert
9th February 2007, 21:31
Third is probably starting to go because it is the gear you are using when the engine is being properly loaded and therefore transferring that load through the gearbox.
Lots of times i've seen the case hardening wearing through on the gear faces, put the gearbox back together and the box has continued to work well, if noisily.
You probably don't give the motor loads of beans in first or even second because of the risk of unwanted wheelies and the gearbox is lightly loaded.
If you can put up with the noise the gearbox will probably go on for a long time and if third fails you've still got four or five other ratios to choose from!

paulj
10th February 2007, 04:13
I'm wondering if it is limited to Australian models (I'm assuming that we get Ausi models given no NZ country code on page 1-9 of the manual).



Well - the 'experts' that have taken a quick look at my DR reckon it's a George Bush import - according to the VIN and MPH speedo - yes, I'm inclined to keep riding until it or me collapses - doesn't seem to be getting worse and perhaps 'avoiding' 3rd will extend my ride time - leave the repair until other things need sorting - the rest of the engine etc is real sweet.

Crisis management
10th February 2007, 07:47
Having slept on this, funny how your mind keeps ticking isn't it?
Another variable could be lubrication, the DR gearbox label calls for 10w40, I have recently changed the oil in the bike to Motul 15w50 semi synthetic.
Having not had the bike very long I am unsure whether the whine was there before the oil change or not but wonder whether these gearboxes are susceptible to marginal oil flows and a slightly heavier oil may be enough to make a difference???

Before I rush out and change the oil.....what is everyone else using?

I'm using the Motul oil as I use it in the GSXR which is a similar vintage technology (and is supposed to have 10w40 as well) and its always been fine.

Expert
10th February 2007, 13:30
Synthetic oils have a high film strength but seem to run a lot thinner than mineral oils, possibly not so good at damping down noise. Any of the older bikes i have put synthetic oil in have developed clunky gearboxes and grabby clutches but admittedly have never got more noticeably noisy.
Older bikes always seem to use more synthetic oils aswell, must be getting past the rings 'cause it's thinner.
Have you tried banana skins or sawdust in the oil? Somebody told me this works.(joke)

Crisis management
10th February 2007, 15:15
Aww, come on, everyone knows you only use banana skins in diffs.....These are chain final drives for christ sakes...:banana: :banana:



Now sawdust, fine or medium grind???

sollie
10th February 2007, 17:39
after market pipe -you won't hear the gear box

nallac
10th February 2007, 23:38
I am also running motul in my new to me 04 650 with 17000ks
since i changed the oil to motul(don't know what was in there?)
shes been hard to get in to neutrel. no whine as yet :yes: .
i checked the clutch plates and springs when doing the change all seem to be in spec.(too much time on my hands)
I think i'll change back to a straight mineral oil.to see if that has any effect.she'll be due for another change in a couple of months

SDU
11th February 2007, 15:08
Dont worry FQ has enough of those moments aye FQ :dodge: He's lucky I didnt ride over him last time we all went for a ride.
cheers R


I manage to do so quite well without your good wishes thankyou very much

As I keep telling you, you guys just arn't trying hard enough. If you don't come off occasionally then your not pushing the envelope enough. Of course it could be that my envelopes a bit smaller than others.

Anyway, as you were, I'll let you all get back to your whining :whistle:


Hey come on don't tease us! spit it out & don't let the truth get in the way of a good story either:yes: :dodge:

As for the whining you guys are starting to make me paranoid- I'll be hearing things soon.

Crisis management
11th February 2007, 19:34
As for the whining you guys are starting to make me paranoid- I'll be hearing things soon.

Come on, after those tractor motors in the road bike the DR would be operatic in comparison. :dodge:

far queue
11th February 2007, 21:32
As for the whining you guys are starting to make me paranoid- I'll be hearing things soon.Nah, it's Lemans that'll hear it 1st, the normal female whining that is :dodge:

cooneyr
12th February 2007, 07:42
Hey come on don't tease us! spit it out & don't let the truth get in the way of a good story either:yes: :dodge:

Twas the bike planing episode that TA captured and posted. Old news from the Chch crowd - on such lines of though though - has that man of yours managed to get the 640 back together yet? (I'm probably completely out of date on this). When are we all going for another blat up the river to Oxford for coffee and back?

Cheers R

Crisis management
20th February 2007, 16:21
Just to continue the whining.....
I changed the oil from a semi-synthetic 10-50 to a mineral 15-40 (castrol GTX, cause it was in the shed..) and the noise has decreased. It still clearly whines, but this is now not as noticable.

Note; this was a scientific test carried out by blatting around the block at various speeds.
No measurements of humidity or wind speed were used.....


Next step some EP90?

Anyway, I will run the mineral oil and continue destruction testing the bike.

mc4aregreat
20th February 2007, 20:09
could it be low oil levels causing this to start with. I have heard 3rd gear is the highest mounted gear in the gear box, and is often the gear to play up from lack of oil lubrication. just a thought.?

DR650SE
20th February 2007, 22:28
mine is too new to tell lol only 2800k on the clock at 10 months old

rogson
21st February 2007, 06:08
I've owned a lot of Suzukis over the years and more than one of them has had a whine in one or more gears. Never had a gearbox failure though. My advice is to use a semisynthetic oil, keep the level at the "Full" mark and ride it like you stole it!

Crisis management
21st February 2007, 07:34
I've owned a lot of Suzukis over the years and more than one of them has had a whine in one or more gears. Never had a gearbox failure though. My advice is to use a semisynthetic oil, keep the level at the "Full" mark and ride it like you stole it!

Why the preference for semi-synthetic? So far I haven't seen any evidence that convinces me it's the best (has some advantages) for the DR.
I'm interested in any feedback / comments please.

SDU
21st February 2007, 09:59
- has that man of yours managed to get the 640 back together yet? (I'm probably completely out of date on this). When are we all going for another blat up the river to Oxford for coffee and back?
Cheers R

No, but it's not regoed but it'll be ready for the mud season & the Brass!
We could always meet you @ Oxford for coffee after we've done the Ashley gorge


Nah, it's Lemans that'll hear it 1st, the normal female whining that is :dodge:

It's his bitch that does that!


Come on, after those tractor motors in the road bike the DR would be operatic in comparison. :dodge:

Tractors Rock!

cooneyr
23rd February 2007, 12:10
......Tractors Rock!

DR650's are highly refined highly engineered bikes. For some reason I have the impression that old guzzies are closer to tractors :gob: :dodge: :innocent:

Cheers R

laRIKin
23rd February 2007, 19:21
Want to race on the grass.

cooneyr
23rd February 2007, 19:46
Want to race on the grass.

Tractors and grass racing? You mean like this?

laRIKin
23rd February 2007, 20:56
Yeah but that not a bike tractor, you are cheating.:dodge:

cooneyr
24th February 2007, 08:24
Yeah but that not a bike tractor, you are cheating.:dodge:

I like the guzie concept :innocent:

Crisis management
24th February 2007, 18:01
I don't know why these Guzzi owners live in denial....you've only got to look at the capping plate on the shaft drive. It still has PTO (power take off) stamped on it for when you want to connect up the harrow :dodge:

laRIKin
24th February 2007, 18:49
I don't know why these Guzzi owners live in denial....you've only got to look at the capping plate on the shaft drive. It still has PTO (power take off) stamped on it for when you want to connect up the harrow :dodge:

Does that mean I can calm the GST back because of that?
And get cheaper rego and insurance?

Transalper
24th February 2007, 20:52
I'm not sure what all that has to do with DR650 gearbox noise. I was watching this thread with a keen eye in hope someone finds an answer incase our one developes a whine too, but it all seems to have fallen apart in pointless post count boosting dribble.:angry:

NordieBoy
24th February 2007, 21:29
I don't think my DR whines in 3rd but it'd have to be pretty far gone to hear it over the..... wind noise..... yeah, wind noise :shifty:

xwhatsit
25th February 2007, 02:07
Both my CB250RS and a Suzuki Intruder I rode have had gearbox whine in 5th. My RS is getting on a bit, but the Intruder was near brand new -- I took it over 5000kms while I was borrowing it. Is this just a problem endemic to all Suzukis and decrepit Hondas?

In seriousness though, hope it's not a sign of approaching carnage. Any more theories?

NordieBoy
25th February 2007, 07:41
My XR dosn't have it and it's a bit older than your CB but I don't often get into 5th on it.

Crisis management
25th February 2007, 08:59
I'm not sure what all that has to do with DR650 gearbox noise. I was watching this thread with a keen eye in hope someone finds an answer incase our one developes a whine too, but it all seems to have fallen apart in pointless post count boosting dribble.:angry:

Annoying Guzzi owners is entertaining not pointless dribble thank you.

The thread has ground to a halt because no one has a solution to the problem. My pick is a design fault or cost saving by suzuki (like the "lets not put in the starter kick back clutch" in the 1998 models that lets cases shit themselves) that affects some bikes. My bike has only got 4000Km's on it so it obviously can become apparent fairly early on. Pity the previous owner didn't consider a warranty claim!
Oil may play a part as changing from semi-synthetic to full mineral has quietened mine a bit.

Solutions?
Keep the oil level to the full mark?
Repair it if it fails?
Other than tearing it down and replacing parts, I can't see there being anything else to do.

laRIKin
25th February 2007, 18:06
Some of Guzzi people have DR's and we just live with it.
I don't think the gear box will go bang in a bad way.
So as Crisis management said keep the oil up to the mark and change it regular a long with the filter.
And I would keep an eye for crap in the oil when you change it.
If you do get humps or filings, do worry.
Just ride it and be happy.

You grump T/A, go ride your bike.:dodge:

cooneyr
7th February 2008, 13:39
Bumpedy bump - Finally bitten the bullet and decided to rip the engine out of the bike to get to the bottom of the 3rd gear whine. Other issues like valve guide seals starting to go (smoking on startup) and needing to spend time on my masters degree (i.e. not riding) are also contributing factors.

Went and talked to Dirt Action Services in chch today and the plan is to get the engine out this weekend (along with the shock which I'm getting serviced, revalved and resprung at the same time) and delivered to DAS. Got a pretty good possible explanation from DAS about the 3rd gear whine - the bushings are not properly aligned with the gear and hence the gear gets a little out of line with its mate and makes some noise. This is not helped by the fact that 3rd gears are in the middle of the gear shafts i.e. where the most movement due to shaft flex occurs. Also told it is not uncommon for this to happen and obviously it is not something that will go away.

Given DAS work loads and my need to do my masters probably be about 3-4 weeks and I'll hopefully have more of an answer on this.

Cheers R

Crisis management
7th February 2008, 14:04
Sounds like a plausible explanation R, keep us posted as I'm interested in the definitive explanation (and the costs of rectifying it!).

I take it you will have it back for the capital coast so we can compare noises?

Iain

cooneyr
7th February 2008, 14:14
Sounds like a plausible explanation R, keep us posted as I'm interested in the definitive explanation (and the costs of rectifying it!).

I take it you will have it back for the capital coast so we can compare noises?

Iain

Will let everyone know how it goes. Its not going to be cheap though - could be around $2k with the shock work but unfortunately that is life.

If I don't have it back for the CCA ride I'll be making some not so PC noises! Should be no worries though - heaps of time which is one reason why I'm doing it now.

Cheers R

jim.cox
8th February 2008, 08:48
Will let everyone know how it goes. Its not going to be cheap though - could be around $2k with the shock work

Wouldn't you be better off just flicking the DR for what you can get for it as

And putting the $$ toward that KTM you lust after

It will be nearer three grand than two and you're just throwing it away

Just my $0.02

Transalper
8th February 2008, 08:58
There's now two riders in the cooneyr household, I think you'll find he's goning to hand me down the DR650 to the wifey when the KTM comes along. She ain't on full licence yet so no rush,

jim.cox
8th February 2008, 09:11
There's now two riders in the cooneyr household, I think you'll find he's goning to hand me down the DR650 to the wifey when the KTM comes along. She ain't on full licence yet so no rush,

But wifey aint got no bike licence - so its going to be a long while till she can ride the DR, even if she wants to

Better to be riding a KTM now

cooneyr
8th February 2008, 12:35
Boys boys :girlfight: Jim meet TA, TA meet Jim. Jim works in the office next door to me so up with the play most of the time. Yes wifey is working on her license - going to sit her restricted in mid March so full around September some time. Also as you both know there is an op coming up that may change the state of play significantly. The DR will be in the shed for another year or so no matter what given this change. I just need to keep my mouth shut about my lusting for :scooter:

Cheers R

Transalper
8th February 2008, 14:04
Boys boys :girlfight: Jim meet TA, TA meet Jim. ...

It takes two to :girlfight: and with the way Jim has filled out his profile i had already decided not to partake any further in the conversation as he looked to me to be one of them I would be better to ignore.
Thanks cooneyr for the intro and clearing the air.
Now back to gearboxes?:mellow:

cooneyr
9th February 2008, 12:48
Back on track. One bike has been gutted. Got everything from airbox (going to clean airbox and carb boot) to exhaust can (made it easier to get shock off) off and everything in between. Took all of about 1.5 hrs from go to wo with help from lil bro.

I'm going to have a look at the carb while its off. Probable wont do much but I'm thinking about the extra hole in the slide seeing if I can fatten up the lower end of the rev range (pilot jet) a just little though at it can be a bit surgey at lower revs. Got some reading to do before I go there though.

Cheers R

NordieBoy
9th February 2008, 13:46
Back on track. One bike has been gutted. Got everything from airbox (going to clean airbox and carb boot) to exhaust can (made it easier to get shock off) off and everything in between. Took all of about 1.5 hrs from go to wo with help from lil bro.

I'm going to have a look at the carb while its off. Probable wont do much but I'm thinking about the extra hole in the slide seeing if I can fatten up the lower end of the rev range (pilot jet) a just little though at it can be a bit surgey at lower revs. Got some reading to do before I go there though.

Cheers R

I like the valve adjustment tool behind the engine :D

warewolf
9th February 2008, 18:47
I like the valve adjustment tool behind the engine :DAh yes, the American screwdriver - supersized!

PS You gonna weigh that thing? Inquiring minds want to know :D

cooneyr
9th February 2008, 20:57
Ah yes, the American screwdriver - supersized!

PS You gonna weigh that thing? Inquiring minds want to know :D

Just chucked it on the scales. Minus the stator (found the bloody plug in the wiring loom after I gutted the LHS cover!) and 2.3l of oil is is close 47kgs. I was wondering why it was so damn heavy to move around. Our scales are pretty inaccurate though - I can weigh anywhere between 95 and 110 on them. I know I'm closer to the top end of that range.

Alright then WW - start gloating about how much lighter the LC4 640 motor is :rolleyes:

Cheers R

warewolf
9th February 2008, 21:27
Dunno that it is, don't know what they weigh. Just never seen a number for the DR before. Water cooled vs air cooled differences, too. I'm sure on one of the 690 threads there'll be a comparison of the 640 vs the 690 weights.

cooneyr
10th March 2008, 13:28
Does anybody have any info at all on the 3rd gear whine? DAS have just rang and said that apart from a very slightly rough main bearing (not sure which one) there is absolutely nothing wrong with the gear box. All of the thrust surfaces and bushes etc are "perfect". They have asked if I know anything about this and hence I'm asking if you guys have found any sources of info?

Cheers R

P.S. DAS now have the only DR650 fly wheel puller in Chch after getting one manufactured. Suzuki NZ didn't even have one apparently :D

Crisis management
10th March 2008, 13:40
Short answer, No, I was relying on you. My enquiries up here of the suzuki dealerships were similarly helpful.

I suppose it's buy earplugs and carry on then?

XF650
10th March 2008, 15:03
I'm the same, got the 3rd gear whine (Freewind's have DR650 engine) & was anticipating same fix as yours, whatever that is. However looks like you may have saved us a lot of $, if there isn't anything obvious that actually needs fixing.

When running 16th front sprocket my "whine" seems worse than 15 tooth, so it's probably load related? Next ride I will change to 14th sprocket, to see what effect that has.
Then I might try 'Rock Oil' in the gearbox (instead of usual Castrol GPS) to see if that has an effect, or am I wasting money.....

NordieBoy
10th March 2008, 17:29
I wonder if everyone with 3rd gear whineering are using bashplates?

cooneyr
10th March 2008, 17:33
OK the final verdict (went and saw DAS after work) is that the gears are poorly made in that the teeth dont mesh that well - lets just put it this way the are not precision machined gears! This is not to say that they aren't in good shape i.e. the case hardening etc is good etc. Apparently DAS talked to a couple of guys who know a thing or too about gears and they reckon they are pretty badly made gears but nothing to get excited about in terms of replacing.

Plan of action - put it back together and ride. Doing new rings while in there and giving the head a bit of a going over.

So all of you with DR650 engined bikes and 3rd gear whines who I just saved a lot of money, feel free to chip in a hundy for the cause LOL :D

Cheers R

Transalper
10th March 2008, 17:46
J and I both have a bash plates (1 BnB 1 similar) no whining on our bikes... and I don't reckon I can tell any noise increases with the plates on vs off.
I wear plugs any time I am leaving the city limits.

XF650
10th March 2008, 17:47
Would pay to check that your motor has the metal base gasket upgrade, while it's apart.

cooneyr
10th March 2008, 17:59
Would pay to check that your motor has the metal base gasket upgrade, while it's apart.

Told the guys about that to the guys without trying to sound like a know it all - doing think I succeeded. Also told them about the neutral sender unit and then proceeded to have a look at the cases and noticed they hadn't removed it (I'd just locktighted it anyway).

What I'm curious about is what model you guys with the whine have. Do you have the micro switch on the carbie or not and do you have or not the US Forestry service approved can?

Cheers R

Crisis management
10th March 2008, 18:42
As you know, mine has whined from @ 4000 kms and its an 03 NZ model. I don't have the stock exhaust so can't comment on that but i did have the throttle microswitch.

XF650
25th March 2008, 15:22
I have changed front sprocket to 14t & a lot less 3rd gear whine now. Plus able to use 4th gear more instead of 3rd around town etc.
The DAS guys didn't think changing oil type would help - just stick to a good semi or full synthetic.
Bike has more power out of corners & gets to the ton quicker than standard gearing. Suspect economy & tank range might suffer though.

howiezowie
26th March 2008, 19:48
My story, same but different ..
Bought a used DRZ 250, no noise noticed with 16000 km (shown)
Noticed a pronounced grind/whine in top (6th) gear. diagnosed by dealer as worn gear hardening.
long story short, motor stripped down, 6th gear and opposing cog stuffed, long wait (2 months +) for parts from Japan, and bill to pay $1500+.
Are there some issues here for Suzuki to face up to ? considering some of the other stories .
H

simonantz
6th April 2008, 20:34
I have been reading this with interest, if this was my bike I would try a gearbox additive...like ..motor up.. or moreys...always used them and so far so good! :calm:

cooneyr
6th April 2008, 21:19
I have been reading this with interest, if this was my bike I would try a gearbox additive...like ..motor up.. or moreys...always used them and so far so good! :calm:

In a bike where the gearbox oil is also the clutch and engine oil? Is that really a good idea?

Anyway - got the engine back on sat morning and put it back in late today. Started and ran OK. When I get the shock I'll take it for a ride and report back on the whine.

I drilled the second hole in the carb slide but not sure that is was a good idea. I get a big hiccup when you give it a wrist full - maybe the slide is lifting too fast now? Cant ride it yet but maybe it is just associated with the lack of load but if it isn't then the hole is getting glued up again!

Cheers R

NordieBoy
6th April 2008, 21:36
The hole should just make it respond quicker off the bottom.
It'll lift to the same levels just get there more quickly.

I'll send you down my stock needle, nylon spacer and extra spacery thing which let my de-snorkeled bike run nicely.
See if they make a difference from your very worn needle/spacer combo?

Still havn't pulled mine apart to see why it's so rich now...

cooneyr
6th April 2008, 22:17
The hole should just make it respond quicker off the bottom.
It'll lift to the same levels just get there more quickly.

I'll send you down my stock needle, nylon spacer and extra spacery thing which let my de-snorkeled bike run nicely.
See if they make a difference from your very worn needle/spacer combo?

Still havn't pulled mine apart to see why it's so rich now...

Thanks for the offer nordie. I think I'll take this discussion to your thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1508660&postcount=714) cause it is rather off topic in this one.

Cheers R

cooneyr
9th April 2008, 09:54
Well the bike is back together, the whine is still there but not as bad. I did have one gearbox shaft bearing getting a little rumbly so given that 3rd gear would load it the most its replacement may be the cause of the reduced noise. Other than that is goes like I remember. Doesn't seem to hiccup with the needle lifted, the slide drilled and the snorkel removed. As for power deliver and response I cant really tell and difference but it does seem to get a little lighter in the front end.

I just need to do some kms now before the CCA so I can do a 500km oil change following new bearings and rings.

Cheers R

Edit - Opps I forgot the :devil2::scooter: So nice to have it back!!!!

NordieBoy
9th April 2008, 20:14
So much betterer than a supposed 125cc 2-smoker :D

cooneyr
9th April 2008, 20:36
So much betterer than a supposed 125cc 2-smoker :D

A flogged out (just turned over 49,900kms when I gave it back), low state of tune, commuter 2T. I recon a AG100 would have gone faster!

Cheers R

NordieBoy
9th April 2008, 21:01
A flogged out (just turned over 49,900kms when I gave it back), low state of tune, commuter 2T. I recon a AG100 would have gone faster!

Cheers R

The Ag would certainly go higher :D

<img src=http://www.photostorage.nelson.geek.nz/sports/motorsport/dirt/2003-11-30-Glenhope/slides/mvc-227f.jpg>

cooneyr
13th April 2008, 11:33
....... Doesn't seem to hiccup with the needle lifted, the slide drilled and the snorkel removed. As for power deliver and response I cant really tell and difference but it does seem to get a little lighter in the front end.........

I have changed my mind about this. Went for a ride on the gravel yesterday and the mid range is much stonger and more controllable. Power slides on the gravel are much easier to control now - heaps more fun :D

Cheers R

pete376403
21st June 2009, 22:19
Thread dredge - DR650 third gear, 17000kms (& out of warranty). According to Suzuki NZ - not a common problem. (Tui ad)

Ixion
21st June 2009, 22:24
Eeek :eek:

That's not lack of lubrication. That's either defective hardening or just not up to transmitting the power. (Can't be wheelies in third, I think)

Padmei
21st June 2009, 22:35
Thread dredge - DR650 third gear, 17000kms (& out of warranty). According to Suzuki NZ - not a common problem. (Tui ad)

You got a DR & KLR - talk bout sittng on the fence

pete376403
21st June 2009, 22:46
Nah, not mine - belongs to a mate. We have a fairly good KLR / DR rivalry thing going.

Transalper
22nd June 2009, 07:53
What year DR is it from?
We hear the early ones had the whine with possibly an issue with hardening (although cooneyrs one looked ok for hardening when checked out).
When they changed the part in (help Nordie, what year?) they stopped whining but some just went bang with no warning instead (like mine, a 2001).
They changed the part again more recently which is the part mine is being replaced with (we are still talking 3rd gear cogs) and I can only hope they have a finally got a good setup now. I guess time will tell.

NordieBoy
22nd June 2009, 08:30
Seems like the whiners are 97/98 and 2006 got the new part number.

My 97 is whining a lot but theres absolutly nothing metallic in the oil at changes.

haddon
22nd June 2009, 19:57
FYI

I've now done 35k on my new 3rd gear. The only whine is an occaisonal one from the rider. Like yesterday , burnt a hole in my trou doing a slow motion drop in the ice.

Aslan
22nd June 2009, 20:19
FYI

I've now done 35k on my new 3rd gear. The only whine is an occaisonal one from the rider. Like yesterday , burnt a hole in my trou doing a slow motion drop in the ice.

hi haddon - a positive first post - gotta say I watch this topic with some trepidation - you describe your machine as having a new third gear - how many KM's had your DR done before third gear was replaced?

I've seen cases (albeit here on the Net) where folks have got in excess of 100,000 from their DR's - I guess it's all down to chance - cheers Aslan :2thumbsup

pete376403
22nd June 2009, 20:44
What year DR is it from?

Just over two years old so 2006-7. Not that long out of warranty, and as I posted 17,000km. Well maintained, oil changed every 3000. Not massively abused on gnarly single track, more of gravel and sealed road (brisk) touring

XF650
22nd June 2009, 21:04
Just over two years old so 2006-7. Not that long out of warranty, and as I posted 17,000km. Well maintained, oil changed every 3000. Not massively abused on gnarly single track, more of gravel and sealed road (brisk) touring

But did it have the 3rd gear whine?

pete376403
22nd June 2009, 21:08
But did it have the 3rd gear whine?

Yes it did. Which got progressively louder, until the owner pulled the engine and took it to a bike shop for investigation.
I understand that well prior to the warranty expiring, enquiries about the noise had been made at the shop that sold the bike new. Apparently they all did it, nothing to worry about.
And the year is 2006, not 2007.

XF650
22nd June 2009, 21:14
Shit, a whiner and a banger.
Nordie - is that the first that has done both?

NordieBoy
22nd June 2009, 21:48
hi haddon - a positive first post - gotta say I watch this topic with some trepidation - you describe your machine as having a new third gear - how many KM's had your DR done before third gear was replaced?

I'd take an educated guess based on an NZ rider at about 40,000km :D

NordieBoy
22nd June 2009, 21:50
Maybe the first I've heard of...

There's another 2006 that blew but it may have been an '05 that was 1st registered in '06.

They introduced the metal base gasket half way through 2003 so may have done the same in 2006 with the new 3rd gear...

Transalper
22nd June 2009, 22:24
I wouldn't class that whiner as also a banger. That gear looks like it slowly disintegrated instead of suddenly splitting in two without warning in a crank bending fashion.
I doubt the whole engine was destroyed or about to be destroyed in this case.
There surely would have been a heap of metal warning in its oil changes near the end.

NordieBoy
23rd June 2009, 08:23
I've just scored some small magnets off TM to make some magnetic sump bungs for this very reason.
Havn't seen anything in the oil yet.

pete376403
23rd June 2009, 18:37
Shit, a whiner and a banger.
Nordie - is that the first that has done both?

If you're referring to my friends bike - it never went bang. It was still running fine apart from the noisy third gear when it was taken down.

XF650
23rd June 2009, 18:47
If you're referring to my friends bike - it never went bang. It was still running fine apart from the noisy third gear when it was taken down.

Was it a whiner, then a 'grinder' ?
Please note I'm not taking the piss - I have the 3rd gear whine so am a bit nervous about this topic, especially now with your mates experience.

rogson
23rd June 2009, 19:04
Was it a whiner, then a 'grinder' ?
Please note I'm not taking the piss - I have the 3rd gear whine so am a bit nervous about this topic, especially now with your mates experience.

Shoulda got an orange one.

XF650
23rd June 2009, 19:17
Shoulda got an orange one.

That colour would be the last straw....

marks
23rd June 2009, 19:31
That colour would be the last straw....

or a green one

you can eliminate the 3rd gear noise by installing a jardine muffler....

pete376403
23rd June 2009, 21:00
Was it a whiner, then a 'grinder' ?
Please note I'm not taking the piss - I have the 3rd gear whine so am a bit nervous about this topic, especially now with your mates experience.

Yes, grinder would be correct description. Also its got a (loud) Two Brothers pipe on it, so Markss fix has been tried, but failed to resolve the problem.

is the XF650 the same engine as the DR?

cooneyr
23rd June 2009, 21:11
...is the XF650 the same engine as the DR?

Twin carbs and a different cam.

XF650
23rd June 2009, 21:11
Yip, only difference is XF has twin carbs, bigger valves & bigger oil cooler.
Everything else is the same, incl 3rd gear!!

Edit - Ryan beat me

Woodman
23rd June 2009, 21:17
or a green one

you can eliminate the 3rd gear noise by installing a jardine muffler....

Was wondering who would be first.

warewolf
23rd June 2009, 22:34
you can eliminate the 3rd gear noise by installing a jardine muffler....Or simply riding anywhere near marks' one...

dutchman49
1st July 2009, 17:17
Yes, grinder would be correct description. Also its got a (loud) Two Brothers pipe on it, so Markss fix has been tried, but failed to resolve the problem.

is the XF650 the same engine as the DR?

Thanks for getting this issue out there Pete. I have owned the DR since new in July '06. I decided that coz i thrashed it just a bit and oil changes are the best insurance, that every 3k wouldnt hurt. The noise started at about 12k but nothing you would worry too much about. The oil was last changed at 14.5k and there was no metallic bits found in the oil. Over the next couple months it progressively got worse, so I drained the oil again and found a few bits of metal in the oil. I spoke to my mechanic mate and he said that it was a worry and it was worth pulling it down to check it.Glad i did. As photo shows, 3rd gear was buggered and had damaged the gear it runs on. The rest of the motor and gearbox are in perfect condition. Most of the riding on this bike is on gravel roads so you can imagine 2nd and 3rd gear do most of the work. 2nd gear is in perfect condition. My advice to anyone who is concerned about a 3rd whine is to get it pulled down and checked. Total cost of this is about 300 bucks if you remove the motor yourself.

cooneyr
1st July 2009, 21:47
.....My advice to anyone who is concerned about a 3rd whine is to get it pulled down and checked. Total cost of this is about 300 bucks if you remove the motor yourself.

Damn I got stung! Cost me about $1000 for a full tear down and rebuild including two new bearings, new rings, oil, filter and spark plugs. I removed and refitted the motor myself.

Cheers R

dutchman49
2nd July 2009, 08:13
My bill will probably be 4 figures.Just hoping the first figure is a one. New rings, 2 gears, gasket set, oil and filter.Ouch!

meteor
2nd July 2009, 09:22
My DR250 had a 6th gear whine and lower speed shudder. Turned out to be a flogged sleeve between the cog and the shaft. Being mechanically challenged I got a shop to do it... $1200 for the work, oils, gaskets and a couple of cogs.

dutchman49
12th July 2009, 14:53
All back together. Bill was just under 1200 bucks. The DR has never sounded so quiet. Makes me think that the gearbox was always a bit dodgy.

XF650
20th July 2009, 21:06
Changed out the oil in the XF today, in preperation for the MMMMM Ride.
In light of this thread topic I thought it prudent to check to see if there were any bits of gears lurking in the oil - see pic.
There was only the one piece, so is this just normal wear & tear?

pete376403
20th July 2009, 21:12
that's not the best. You really shouldn't have lumps (even little ones) of internal parts in the oil.

Woodman
20th July 2009, 21:15
that's not the best. You really shouldn't have lumps (even little ones) of internal parts in the oil.

yea, but what do you do? Pull it apart and see if you can find where that chip came from? or keep on riding and keep an ear out?:innocent:

NordieBoy
20th July 2009, 21:23
Alloy or steel?

XF650
20th July 2009, 21:43
Alloy or steel?

A jagged chip of steel.

NordieBoy
20th July 2009, 22:38
Have you got a magnetic sump bolt?

I've made one for my next oil change in about 1,700km.

XF650
20th July 2009, 22:39
yea, but what do you do? Pull it apart and see if you can find where that chip came from? or keep on riding and keep an ear out?:innocent:

Yeah, decision time. The 'whine' hasn't got any worse but then I don't want to be way up north if it changes to a 'grind'.
However I'v looked closely at the piece again (with my glasses on this time) & it's shiney on all but one surface. So I'll whip around the local bike shops in the morning to see if they can ID it.
Otherwise I'm sure the DT230 is itching for a ride......

XF650
20th July 2009, 22:41
Have you got a magnetic sump bolt?

I've made one for my next oil change in about 1,700km.

Please quote to supply 1 x magnetic sump bung to fit Suzuki DR650 / XF650

Woodman
20th July 2009, 22:42
Yeah, decision time. The 'whine' hasn't got any worse but then I don't want to be way up north if it changes to a 'grind'.
However I'v looked closely at the piece again (with my glasses on this time) & it's shiney on all but one surface. So I'll whip around the local bike shops in the morning to see if they can ID it.
Otherwise I'm sure the DT230 is itching for a ride......

At least if it does let go you can sa "aha I knew that would happen".

XF650
21st July 2009, 10:46
The bit of metal has been ID'd as being the the tip off a circlip end. Advice this morning is that the circlips used in assembly aren't good quality and that impact from crashing gears could damage them. Apart from this one piece the oil is very clean - good enough to use in the lawnmower anyway.
In the meantime I'm fitting a magnetic sump bung, scrounged from a wrecked Suzuki LTF (quad) - it's the same size as DR/XF, see pic

NordieBoy
21st July 2009, 11:33
The bit of metal has been ID'd as being the the tip off a circlip end. Advice this morning is that the circlips used in assembly aren't good quality and that impact from crashing gears could damage them. Apart from this one piece the oil is very clean - good enough to use in the lawnmower anyway.
In the meantime I'm fitting a magnetic bung, scrounged from a wrecked Suzuki LTF (quad) - it's the same size as DR/XF, see pic

I bought 50 neomidium high strength magnets (only wanted 3) to make some bungs.

If it's only the tip then the only problem may just be difficulty in removing it off the shaft later.

XF650
21st July 2009, 11:51
I bought 50 neomidium high strength magnets (only wanted 3) to make some bungs.

If it's only the tip then the only problem may just be difficulty in removing it off the shaft later.

Manual shows 4 circlips in gear cluster & 1 on the balance shaft. Service caution states never to re-use circlips.

NordieBoy
21st July 2009, 13:28
I carry 2 spare circlips for my front sprocket.
Seeing how much they deformed putting them on, there's no way the old ones'll be getting re-used.

Woodman
21st July 2009, 21:31
Back in the day, I was puttin my IT back together the night before a hare scramble , and lost the wire circlips from the piston. I tore the shed apart, and could not find them anywhere, but did find some normal inside circlips with the eyes in them. Got the bike going that night and finished the race the next day, although the bike had lost a lot of power.

Anyway to cut a long story short, all 4 of the eyelets had broken off and caused a lot of damage to the piston and bore.
Not sure if there is a moral to this or anything, but it did bring back some memories.

Transalper
22nd July 2009, 08:56
I bought 50 neomidium high strength magnets (only wanted 3) to make some bungs....I'll take one off ya hands next time I'm up there if ya like, if ya selling off the spares. Assume u only use one on the bung?

NordieBoy
22nd July 2009, 09:34
I'll take one off ya hands next time I'm up there if ya like, if ya selling off the spares. Assume u only use one on the bung?

Drill a 6.5mm hole about 4mm or so deep and drop it in there.
You could use a flat ended drill bit to give a nice flat face for the magnet to grip and it would not come out unless grabbed by a pair of pliers.
Or just a bit of JB Weld.

If the magnet is pulled out then it's a bigger bit of steel than the sump bung so you'd probably be having other issues :D

cooneyr
22nd July 2009, 13:55
Put me down for one too please Nordie. Pretty sure my bung is non magnitised as well (ohh err :doctor:)

Cheers R

NordieBoy
22nd July 2009, 19:53
There's only a few magnets left so hurry up!

That's 300g of 10mm thick steel hanging from the magnet.

pete376403
22nd July 2009, 20:21
I'd like one if available, please.

andy mac
22nd July 2009, 20:22
Can I book one too?
And a query about your first photo with the magnets neatly stacked on top of each other - I thought a magnet repelled another magnet?

NordieBoy
22nd July 2009, 20:47
Can I book one too?
And a query about your first photo with the magnets neatly stacked on top of each other - I thought a magnet repelled another magnet?

Not if they're stacked North-South-North-South-North-South...

If you try stacking one North-North it bounces a fair distance or just flips over violently.

NordieBoy
22nd July 2009, 20:51
OK so...
2 Chch way.
2 Welly way.

Any more takers?

JATZ
22nd July 2009, 21:05
OK so...
2 Chch way.
2 Welly way.

Any more takers?

Yip.......

Transalper
22nd July 2009, 21:35
Add another for Christchurch, might as well do Js bike as well.

Maybe you need to buy another bag of them.;)

Aslan
22nd July 2009, 21:59
OK so...
2 Chch way.
2 Welly way.

Any more takers?

Hi Fran - yes please - regards Stephen O aka Aslan :clap:

Frodo
23rd July 2009, 05:49
Hi Fran - yes please - regards Stephen O aka Aslan :clap:

Does this offer apply to non-DRs?

If so, cn you send a second one to Aslan - I'll get it off him and have an excuse for a coffee.

Thanks

Monstaman
23rd July 2009, 07:49
If there are some going to Chch then I would be keen, my bro lives in Chch so he could get em, unless there was anyone else in Central Otago then would be happy to ride and deliver..

NordieBoy
23rd July 2009, 07:53
4 Chch
4 Welly
1 Nelson

Monstaman
23rd July 2009, 08:15
4 Chch
4 Welly
1 Nelson

...gettin down to your last 500!!!:laugh:

XF650
29th September 2009, 17:12
Changed out the oil tonight in preperation for the MAPMEA ride & look what's sitting on the magnet - a very small piece of the circlip part that I found last time.
To confirm that the magnet didn't miss anything I ran the hot oil through a fine gauze but couldn't find anything else, nor was there anything left on the bottom of the drain pan.

NordieBoy
29th September 2009, 17:54
Magnets are good.

Monstaman
29th September 2009, 21:45
Doin mine this weekend, got some shell fully synthetic oil and new filter and a drill.

Nordie, what glue do ya reckon I should use to hold it down? ... think it will hold itself down anyway to be honest but will add something to be sure.

NordieBoy
30th September 2009, 06:31
Bit of metal putty?
Epoxy?

Drill the hole so the magnet sticks slightly out and see how much force is required to dislodge it.
Not flush as then both N and S will inside the hole and it won't stick as well.

Mine still needed a lot of force after 2000km so heat shouldn't be much of an issue weakening the magnet.

My theory is that if something is big enough to dislodge the magnet then you've got other problems.

Monstaman
30th September 2009, 06:45
My theory is that if something is big enough to dislodge the magnet then you've got other problems.

My thoughts exactly ... the magnet is certainly not the issue when it gets to that level, have some epoxy so that will do.

snuff movie maker
30th September 2009, 09:23
Thanks Ryan, for the info.
If it is a dry bush then it won't get any better and will need fixing. I assume this means a complete strip down as nothing is accessible without spliting the cases. Last time I looked at this it got into the "need special tools" category and I got the local dealer to do a strip & re-assembly (I needed to do a weld repair on a case) and this cost @ $550.

Any other way to get a manual? The suzuki one is $150 and I have tried other electronic manuals before with no success. I just tried your link but can't get the download to work, I just get a blank screen without any info downloaded.
Anyone got a workable idea????

come into or ring holeshot motorcycles ask for matt i can help a fellow dr rider with a manual. 09 4865187

NordieBoy
30th September 2009, 12:39
come into or ring holeshot motorcycles ask for matt i can help a fellow dr rider with a manual. 09 4865187

Even Crisis isn't slow enough to let it sit for 2 1/2 years before fixing it :D

Crisis management
30th September 2009, 20:15
You'll keep, hippy boy, one of these days I will stagger down that far south and hand you your arse.....:whistle:








On a good day, with a tail wind.

Eddieb
18th November 2009, 22:14
Nordie, looks like there's another DR650 gearbox blowup on ADV:http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=526093

NordieBoy
19th November 2009, 07:07
Looks like the hardening coming off 3-4-5. No blowup yet so it doesn't count :D

XF650
30th May 2010, 20:16
Oil change for Brass Monkey has revealed a few very small bits of swarf plus the oil was quite black.
Only done approx 2,000km since last oil change, mostly gravel.
3rd gear whine isn't getting any quieter either.

pete376403
30th May 2010, 20:32
Black is ok - means the detergent in the oil is getting the carbon particles (blowby soot) out of the engine. Metal particles is not so good. Is the metal on a magnetic drain plug? if so does the magnet look "furry"? That's pretty normal, however if the metal is larger, more discrete particles, might be time to get worried.
Split the old oil fiter open and see what is trapped in there.

XF650
30th May 2010, 21:19
Having trouble uploading pic of the particles that were stuck to the magnet. Very small bits though & nothing in the filter.

NordieBoy
31st May 2010, 18:34
I'm going to guess this is the photo referred to above.
209214

Just found it on the interweb somewhere.

dino3310
31st May 2010, 18:52
i'd expect that after a rebuild, mines done 1500 with 3 oil changes and shes all clear now.
but im never surprized with the amont off shit that wears inside a motor.
Could it be a little hardfacing off the third gear maybe

XF650
19th October 2010, 18:08
Decided to bite the bullet & have the gears inspected - after 41,700 km's the 3rd gear whine wasn't getting any quieter plus as per previous posts, oil changes were occasionally revealing minute traces of metal.
However all's not what I was expecting - it's obvious 4th gear is the one that's "delaminating" (the blacker one in the pics). Plus there is a bit of wear where the selector forks engage, within tolerance but still makes me question the oil I'v been using.
But what is most surprising is that the noisy 3rd gears (drive & driven), are showing the least wear of the lot!!! WTF.

JATZ
19th October 2010, 19:06
Plus there is a bit of wear where the selector forks engage, within tolerance but still makes me question the oil I'v been using.

You can't leave us all hanging like that :facepalm:

What oil were you using ? just so we know which one to avoid

Woodman
19th October 2010, 19:09
You can't leave us all hanging like that :facepalm:

What oil were you using ? just so we know which one to avoid

Hey, maybe start a new thread about which oil to use????

tri boy
19th October 2010, 19:29
Hey, maybe start a new thread about which oil to use????

Noooooooooooooooo,:spanking:

miles1
19th October 2010, 19:37
Before any one else strips their gear boxes it migh pay to read this.
My XF 650 has screamed like a banchie in 3rd since i brought it 2nd hand 8 years ago with 16000 ks on the clock.
I finished flogging the bike through africa in Jan this year and put another 22 000 odd ks on the clock. It now has 78 000. The motor got so dam hot in northern Kenya (45 ish) you could cook eggs on the clutch cover. I used any oil i could get my hands on, 10 40, 15 40, 20 40, what ever. When i drain the oil is is always black (a bit of carbon in it) but clean. sometimes small pieces come out. (no where near the amount that my old KTM 520 always had)
To me (i am a mechanic) it sounds like a gear mesh problem. I could be wrong though.
I am going to keep flogging it until the engine stops and then buy another one.
I put another 5000 ks on the bike here in austria with no problems and it is now sitting in a crate down stairs waiting to be shipped back to NZ.
I did blow the rear shock 3 times (because it is crap and i was riding to fast with to much weight) fixed it on the side of the road the first time with a new seal head then i brought seals in Ethiopia for $2 USD.
If you are interested in Have a look at my blog on Travel Pod, search miles1

Cheers Miles

dino3310
19th October 2010, 19:43
Hey, maybe start a new thread about which oil to use????

yeah yeah and it could have a simular name like 'KLR650 owners whine' :wings:




i just know im gonna pay for that:facepalm:

dino3310
19th October 2010, 19:48
If you are interested in Have a look at my blog on Travel Pod, search miles1

Cheers Miles

sweet mate, good to see the 650 getting what she made for:corn:

Aslan
19th October 2010, 19:59
Before any one else strips their gear boxes it migh pay to read this.
My XF 650 has screamed like a banchie in 3rd since i brought it 2nd hand 8 years ago with 16000 ks on the clock.
I finished flogging the bike through africa in Jan this year and put another 22 000 odd ks on the clock. It now has 78 000. The motor got so dam hot in northern Kenya (45 ish) you could cook eggs on the clutch cover. I used any oil i could get my hands on, 10 40, 15 40, 20 40, what ever. When i drain the oil is is always black (a bit of carbon in it) but clean. sometimes small pieces come out. (no where near the amount that my old KTM 520 always had)
To me (i am a mechanic) it sounds like a gear mesh problem. I could be wrong though.
I am going to keep flogging it until the engine stops and then buy another one.
I put another 5000 ks on the bike here in austria with no problems and it is now sitting in a crate down stairs waiting to be shipped back to NZ.
I did blow the rear shock 3 times (because it is crap and i was riding to fast with to much weight) fixed it on the side of the road the first time with a new seal head then i brought seals in Ethiopia for $2 USD.
If you are interested in Have a look at my blog on Travel Pod, search miles1

Cheers Miles

thanks for posting Miles - encouraging for those of us with DR's - cheers Aslan

Aslan
19th October 2010, 20:00
Decided to bite the bullet & have the gears inspected - after 41,700 km's the 3rd gear whine wasn't getting any quieter plus as per previous posts, oil changes were occasionally revealing minute traces of metal.
However all's not what I was expecting - it's obvious 4th gear is the one that's "delaminating" (the blacker one in the pics). Plus there is a bit of wear where the selector forks engage, within tolerance but still makes me question the oil I'v been using.
But what is most surprising is that the noisy 3rd gears (drive & driven), are showing the least wear of the lot!!! WTF.

Watching with interest Struan - trust all's well for you

NordieBoy
19th October 2010, 20:07
3rd does look to be in good condition :blink:

4th however is really cool...

XF650
19th October 2010, 20:09
Great to hear from another Freewind owner Miles & I appreciate your comments.
What had me more concerned than the actual "whine" was the swarf in the oil (small that it was), plus the fact that 3rd gear failure's often resulted in motor lock-up.
Check out Nordie's thread here: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=424132
Have yet to dismantle gear cluster & measure tolerances etc. Only regret so far is that I mentioned oil, a bit premature perhaps.

XF650
19th October 2010, 20:24
3rd does look to be in good condition :blink:

4th however is really cool...

You can have my 4th gear if ya want it.
Do you know if it was both 3rd gears that had an update / part # change? Or was it just your favorite one?

miles1
19th October 2010, 20:48
In NZ i use a semi Syn 10/40 of what ever brand is the best deal but in africa unfortunatly there is not much option but to use whatever. The 20 40 oil i changed in Egypt was a real problem in Austria at -10 (no supprise) When i started it up to warm it up and change the oil it blew out the counter shaft seal and the engine sounded like a jack hammer. After heating the engine up with a heater, changing the oil with 10 40 and pushing the counter shaft seal back in the problem was sorted. Sometimes the pieces of metal that come out with an oil change are a little worrying but the KTM was a real shocker with big chunks always coming out. even with this the KTM seemed to be no problem.
I really thought of rebuilding the gearbox before africa but I think these motors are bomb proof, so i decided i will ride it to the grave and push it to the dump when finished. I am sure by then the bike wont be worth a dozen tui let alone fixing. Man these are great bikes.

All good, Cheers Miles

Transalper
19th October 2010, 21:18
My DR650 coasted to a stop when the 3rd gear cog split.
Engine locked up and 3rd was still selected but the bike just coasted on quietly to a stop with the rear free wheeling.

We considered opening up Js DR for a look but so far have just left it on the assumption/hope that we who had sudden failures were just an unlucky few out of many thousands.

Squiggles
19th October 2010, 21:27
within tolerance but still makes me question the oil I'v been using.

What oil? (For the curious)

XF650
19th October 2010, 22:06
What oil? (For the curious)

All I'll say is it's a popular motor bike specific semi-synthetic 10W40. The wear surprised me considering regular oil & filter changes. But yet to ascertain if it's all from the mechanical issues (some obviously is) & or from lubrication issues. My question will be, would there be less wear if I had used full synthetic?

Squiggles
19th October 2010, 23:55
All I'll say is it's a popular motor bike specific semi-synthetic 10W40. The wear surprised me considering regular oil & filter changes. But yet to ascertain if it's all from the mechanical issues (some obviously is) & or from lubrication issues. My question will be, would there be less wear if I had used full synthetic?

Always used Motul in my bikes to date, but has never felt quite right in the DR

NordieBoy
20th October 2010, 06:35
All I'll say is it's a popular motor bike specific semi-synthetic 10W40. The wear surprised me considering regular oil & filter changes. But yet to ascertain if it's all from the mechanical issues (some obviously is) & or from lubrication issues. My question will be, would there be less wear if I had used full synthetic?

Are your NSU screws still there?
Do you spend more time in 4th?

Bit of crap caught in a tooth of the driven gear and eventually wearing all the teeth of the drive gear?

If it was oil then all the cogs would be showing similar wear?
Ryans 3rd was noisy but I seem to recall it was in good condition wear wise when it was checked. Just badly machined.

cooneyr
20th October 2010, 20:57
.......Ryans 3rd was noisy but I seem to recall it was in good condition wear wise when it was checked. Just badly machined.

We've been having an off line chat but yep - good condition just badly cut.

Waihou Thumper
20th October 2010, 21:36
We've been having an off line chat but yep - good condition just badly cut.

Oh, wrong mount....sorry...:) hehe

Monstaman
21st October 2010, 07:59
Heya Struan

My 2004 DR only has 15000 km, I bought her at about 9 or 10k.

My 3rd is growley compared to the others but it still changes smooth, feels smooth etc so I am not going to bother until something does go pop ... if at all.

Oil changes have netted nothing whatsoever even with the nordieboyfluxcapacitorsuperdupamegamagnet, no fro or chunks of metal either. :shifty:

Still can't find sixth gear tho....:wait:

Monstaman
21st October 2010, 08:47
Footnote to that, and only for interest (not starting and oil thread war :facepalm:) I use Shell Advance VSX Fully Synthetic oil, 15 - 50w.

Taz
21st October 2010, 09:41
I won't tell you what I use.

cooneyr
21st October 2010, 20:56
Oh, wrong mount....sorry...:) hehe

Back in the "good old days". LC8's only make one noise, brum brum :innocent:

dino3310
22nd October 2010, 08:08
I won't tell you what I use.

o o o let me guess ummmmm let me see ummmm o i know is it a deisel oil?

Taz
25th October 2010, 19:17
o o o let me guess ummmmm let me see ummmm o i know is it a deisel oil?

Yep and I change it after every 10 tanks of gas on the 640.