Ahmed Zaoui: Residency or deportation?

[Dafe]

Ahmed Zaoui arrived into New Zealand in 2002 seeking refugee status.
He has not yet been granted residency
Do you think Ahmed Zaoui should be granted residency so he can finally see his family or should he be deported?

[Jantar]

As I understand it, he arrived here illegally. That should mean instant deportation.

By arriving illegally, I mean that he arrived here without any valid form of identification, yet he had such identification when he boarded the aircraft to come here. He passed through many other countries before arriving here, and he could have applied for refugee status at any of them. But, no, he waited until he arrived here. So it wasn't simply that he wished to seek refuge, but that he wished to live in NZ and bypass our normal immigration system.

[Dafe]

As I understand it, he arrived here illegally. That should mean instant deportation.

By arriving illegally, I mean that he arrived here without any valid form of identification, yet he had such identification when he boarded the aircraft to come here. He passed through many other countries before arriving here, and he could have applied for refugee status at any of them. But, no, he waited until he arrived here. So it wasn't simply that he wished to seek refuge, but that he wished to live in NZ and bypass our normal immigration system.

Yes he arrived here illegally, carrying false papers and instantly claiming asylum.

he never had a choice of country because no other countries would accept his claim for asylum, only NZ would.
He has been booted from Switzerland, Belgium, France, Sudan, Pakistan, Ethiopia. the only country pathetic enough to take him in, is NZ. I wish this country would advance enough to mould some of our policies around Ethiopias common-sense policies.

[Deviant Esq]

Carrying false papers and no other country would take him? If in doubt, boot 'im out. Sorry, stiff shit.

[JimO]

there is nothing stopping him seeing his family, he just needs to go where they are

[Colapop]

The thing is that, if he is subject to a risk certificate (WTF?? Can't be good) then there must be something wrong. Send him to Bolivia.

[Clockwork]

Without papers I doubt that there is anywhere else he can go except Algeria, and I can understand why he wouldn't want to go there.

[Grahameeboy]

He has been here since 2002 so surely he qualifies for residency now............but serious why does it take so long to not make a decision..........let him stay now...............

[paturoa]

He has been here since 2002 so surely he qualifies for residency now............but serious why does it take so long to not make a decision..........let him stay now...............

So because he's been here illegaly for 5 years, cos the system is farked to stop queue jumpers, he should be able to stay? I just don't get that.

His family is living somewhere, his first priority should be to go there and support them.

[Nasty]

Really an incredibly hard question .. as we have seen with this being played out in the national papers/news .... I don't think that it is as simple as a security certificate ... or just giving him residency ... I think there are many things that have not been said to or by the press ... and that there is a pile of other issues that need to be played out before the decision can be made .. I just hate the way that our system works in slowly decreasing circles!!

[Grahameeboy]

So because he's been here illegaly for 5 years, cos the system is farked to stop queue jumpers, he should be able to stay? I just don't get that.

His family is living somewhere, his first priority should be to go there and support them.

Where is his family? Thought they were here for some odd reason

[Karma]

Illegal immigrants? Try living in the UK, spend a few days at a Channel Tunnell terminal or down by the ferry terminals down in Dover and you'll see illegal immigrants.

[avgas]

the whole refugee status thing is NZ is bullshit. My mate got hit by stupid bitch who had refugee status in NZ. Why was she fucken even driving :angry: . By the time it got to court - she had skipped to Australia and they could do jack about it. His bike was a write-off, and the car wasn't hers (as she didn't have NZ driving license. He wouldn't tell me the contact details of the bitch - so i couldn't sort it out for him.

[Fat Tony]

Illegal immigrants? Try living in the UK, spend a few days at a Channel Tunnell terminal or down by the ferry terminals down in Dover and you'll see illegal immigrants.

I recently read a report saying that the UK hotel/catering industry would grind to a halt if all illegal immigrants were deported. It's one big f***ing mess for sure.

I've not voted in the poll as I don't know much about the case... but isn't it incredible that illegal immigrants often can't speak the language of the country that they're claiming asylum in, yet they fully understand how to play the system?

[Scouse]

Send the scum back to where it came from

[Grahameeboy]

I recently read a report saying that the UK hotel/catering industry would grind to a halt if all illegal immigrants were deported. It's one big f***ing mess for sure.

I've not voted in the poll as I don't know much about the case... but isn't it incredible that illegal immigrants often can't speak the language of the country that they're claiming asylum in, yet they fully understand how to play the system?

Yeah but NZ lets people in legally who cannot speak English..........I had to prove I had been taught English for my residency.

There is a cafe in Devonport. The guys who own it only got residency because they bought the business and could show they owned a business...money still talks.

Okay the system sucks and if people can play it then who is the culprit?

[Karma]

Yeah but NZ lets people in legally who cannot speak English..........I had to prove I had been taught English for my residency.

Your two statements contradict each other?

When we moved over here I too had to prove I knew how to speak English, never mind the fact that I'd been born and raised in England.

[Hawkeye]

If they give him residency, what message does that send out to the rest of them.
Hey! if you want to jump the queue, or you can't actually pass the criteria, just turn up without papers and they'll let you in.....

So, who has been paying for him since 2002? Let me think! Oh Yes. That would be you and me. If he gets residency, who will be paying for him? Let me think!.....

[Grahameeboy]

Your two statements contradict each other?

When we moved over here I too had to prove I knew how to speak English, never mind the fact that I'd been born and raised in England.

That was my point.....was waiting in queue for driving licence and the guy in front had an interpreter? I deal with Customers who can hardly speak / understand English but they own a business.

I was the same, born and raised in UK......guess some people don't think Londoners can speak the Queen's English?

[Karma]

guess some people don't think Londoners can speak the Queen's English?

Perhaps the NZ Immigration Service have been watching Eastenders?

you're aving a larf mate, I ain't takin tha kinda dosh for a minta like dis.

[Grahameeboy]

If they give him residency, what message does that send out to the rest of them.
Hey! if you want to jump the queue, or you can't actually pass the criteria, just turn up without papers and they'll let you in.....

So, who has been paying for him since 2002? Let me think! Oh Yes. That would be you and me. If he gets residency, who will be paying for him? Let me think!.....

NZ gave residency for money and still does in an indirect way............know what you mean but if this guy really does need help and cannot return to his native country for fear of death what message does that send out.guess there are 2 ways of looking at that, me just a softy I guess

[Grahameeboy]

Perhaps the NZ Immigration Service have been watching Eastenders?

you're aving a larf mate, I ain't takin tha kinda dosh for a minta like dis.

Yeah, got into it so much they watch it at Custom's and let anyone in now.......eh Rodders..........even the sniffer dogs?

[MisterD]

I recently read a report saying that the UK hotel/catering industry would grind to a halt if all illegal immigrants were deported.

Well you sure couldn't get a pint in London if it wasn't for all the Kiwis / Aussies /Saffas on OE...

As I yelled out of my cage window one morning when a bunch of wet socialist types were demonstrating outside Mt Eden prison in support of A.Z and blocking the road....Kick the fucker out and get out of my fucking way!

***edit***
And while you're at it, get rid of that lawyer bird that's defending him.

[Karma]

I got no worries with the kiwis and saffas etc... the aussie chicks that used to hang in the same pubs as me were a right laugh, they'd match ya drink for drink and then get their tits out! Excellent.

It's the illegals mate, the ones that walk through the channell tunnel then sue when they get run over or clipped by a train :(

[idleidolidyll]

I wonder how many people know just how Zaoui got on the list of international terrorists that is preventing his acceptance?
After 911 the Yanks sent out a request to all nations asking them to put all their 'terrorists' on a list for international security services.
What happened was that thousands of people were placed on these lists merely for opposing the incumbent govts or for revenge. Many of the 'terrorists' had never committed any crimes except to oppose military regimes and dictatorships.
Zaoui was placed on the list because he was in opposition to the Algerian Govt, NOT because he was a terrorist. Basically the Algerian govt, hardly the most free, honest and democratic in the world, put him on their list as revenge for his opposition. He does indeed face imprisonment or death if he returns to Algeria and those are the requirements to be considered a poilitical refugee.
The case is complicated by the fact that wherever he has landed, the Yanks and Belgians (Belgium controlled Algeria for a while and has vested interests and friends in govt there) did their very best to paint him as a real terrorist even though he was NOT. He was a member of the political opposition.
Firstly I'd like to hear the facts that are being suppressed and if there is no specific criminal accusation against him, I'd be proud to hear that he has been given political refugee status. It would show the world again that NZ is not a sycophant to the yanks and that we are prepared to apply the rule of law even if they are not.

[idleidolidyll]

If they give him residency, what message does that send out to the rest of them.
Hey! if you want to jump the queue, or you can't actually pass the criteria, just turn up without papers and they'll let you in.....

So, who has been paying for him since 2002? Let me think! Oh Yes. That would be you and me. If he gets residency, who will be paying for him? Let me think!.....

What queue?
Zaoui is a political refugee not a regular immigrant. For him and others like him, there is a completely different process. What really worries me is the fact that his lawyers are not given full disclosure of information on Zaoui.

Are you not shocked that a person is not given the right to hear the specific charge/s against him and is therefore unable to adequately represent himself or defend those charges?

[ceebie13]

What queue?
Zaoui is a political refugee not a regular immigrant. For him and others like him, there is a completely different process. What really worries me is the fact that his lawyers are not given full disclosure of information on Zaoui.

Are you not shocked that a person is not given the right to hear the specific charge/s against him and is therefore unable to adequately represent himself or defend those charges?

What he says. Bling to you sir!

[Ixion]

I agree with the homonymic gentleman. It is not possible to make any reasoned assessment in the matter. He is accused of "bad things". Unspecified. On grounds that are secret. By people who will not make their charges openly as honest folk do.

We are told that some bureacrat has looked into it. And we should all just take his word for it.

Bugger that. If a man's accused of something whoever is accusing him should stand up and make his charges in public. Then we can all see how the land lies.

Would you want to be accused of something, but they won't tell you what, or where , and when? And on the basis of such an accusation (which, for all you know may be a total fabrication), Helen or her minions will decide your guilt or innocence. And you have no right to defned yourself.

That's not the Kiwi way. Let's see those who accuse him stand forth and make their accusations to his face. If he can rebut them, then he can stay. If they're true then he goes. But lets have it all done openly, honestly, fair and square for all to see.

[idleidolidyll]

I was told by a SIS agent that if we knew what he was doing overseas we wouldnt not want him here and we would also know why they cant make it public. Catch 22.

hearsay is bullshit and propaganda relies on it.
in our kind of democracy, i believe kiwis deserve to know what the charges are and what specific crimes he has been accused of. further, if the 'accusations' are based merely on the algerian govt placing him on the terrorist list with some spurious charge, i reckon the whole world needs to know about it and about how those 'terrorist lists' are being abused.

more importantly, ZAOUI deserves to know what the specific accusations are so that he an defend himself. Would YOU demand anything less if you were charged?

[idleidolidyll]

I agree with the homonymic gentleman.

I'm no gentleman! I thought we'd established that?
I'm outspoken and belligerent but also faithful to my principles.

[idleidolidyll]

Your two statements contradict each other?

When we moved over here I too had to prove I knew how to speak English, never mind the fact that I'd been born and raised in England.

fair enough too, i've lived in britain three times and even married a pome.

perhaps the test is not whether or not you can speak english but whether anyone here will understand you given the amazing number of almost unintelligible accents in britain.

re NZ though. There are several standards. The first is for legitimate immigrants applying to live here. They are tested for English ability.

Refugees however, are not. Thay are assessed based on their regugee status and their criminal record if available. When they are approved they MUST complete English courses which are provided free of charge by the govt.

As for the money; that's capitalism for ya. If you have $1,000,000 to invest, you're on a fast track. Fair enough to a degree since we don't want too many people who will rely on handouts for long periods of time; we need skilled immigrants with something to offer either as legitimate investors in NZ or with skills we lack to some degree.

[ManDownUnder]

Jumping in with reading shit in the thread... my take is simple.

If he has a legitimate claim to refugee status then he get asylum.

[Hitcher]

I'm sick of hearing about Ahmed Zaoui and the bleeding-heart liberals attracted to his cause. Please make it stop.

[idleidolidyll]

As far as i was aware he knows very well what he is accused off but wont be saying what it is.

Probably cause if it was found to be true, which the SIS strongly thinks it is, he would loose a lot of support.

I see your point and it is in the public interest to know if there are terrorists seeking harbour in the country but not at the stake of letting sensitive information out or maybe getting someone hurt.

I dont know what he is alleged to have done but it must be something pretty bad.


nope, Zaoui has not been told exactly what the 'facts' are and that's an area his defence team are still searching.
our SIS is just as abusive at times as is britains and the USA's CIA. We should NOT trust them implicitly to define foir us what is right and wrong.
they see a need to protect their relationship with britain and the usa even if that is not in line with kiwis ideas of what's right and wrong.

i can think of no reason that the charges and accusations against Zaoui cannot be released for the public to read; Zaoui himself ahs asked for that.

you seem to be condeming him based purely on hearsay, SIS hearsay.
Sorry, I have far less faith in secret societies than you do and I have studied some of the SIS's history: it's appalling.

[SwanTiger]

Dafe: Residency or deportation?

I vote for deportation, send that nigger back to the islands.

He can take that Zaoui shit stain with him.

Case dismissed.

[Dafe]

As far as i was aware he knows very well what he is accused off but wont be saying what it is.

Probably cause if it was found to be true, which the SIS strongly thinks it is, he would loose a lot of support.

I see your point and it is in the public interest to know if there are terrorists seeking harbour in the country but not at the stake of letting sensitive information out or maybe getting someone hurt.

I dont know what he is alleged to have done but it must be something pretty bad.


This is becoming a very interesting post.

Dynamytus has some very relevant points. There has never been an issue for somebody who has nothing to offer, to claim residency into NZ. Especially under Asylum.

Yes, there are organisations in NZ that know what these crimes are. They are held silent whilst the legal battle resumes.

Zaoui is desperate now, his lawyer is trying a pity stance to attempt to get his residency to be granted. This way, his multiple wives will be granted automatic access to New Zealand residency along with their many children.
If Zaoui gets residency, over 30 of his family will automatically recieve residency. In turn, their extended families can apply also.

Why do you think this has taken five years now?

Simple - Helen Clark and the United Nations.

I kid you not. A national party would have deported him 5 five years ago.
Because National are for New Zealanders - Not refugees!

Her allegiance to a corrupt and third world dominant United Nations is the real reason that this case is not thrown out the door with Zaoui being deported instantly. Helen is too PC and is playing the puppet with her strings pulled by the UN council.

I see in the last week. That John Keys mentioned feeding school children at the cost of companies. I thought this sounded very strange but it turns out, the issue is larger than we know. Kept quiet by the government. However, the facts are there and as a result - The International Red Cross are coming to New Zealand to setup an operation to address the problem at the International Red Cross's cost.
This is because we are too buisy paying our taxes to the multitude of non-working refugees and multiple benefits introduced by Labour. We can't even pay for our own kids food.
And then we hear about Cullen's idea of taxing mortgages??? Shouldn't it be a give and take system? We pay interest - Thats the take. We recieve an immediate roof over our heads - Thats the give. Why is the government trying to double the take?

Why don't they scrap their benefits and United Nations Refugees policies and reap the rewards? Oh thats right, coz it won't make Helen look good to the corrupt third world run UN Council. Thats why we're taxed so heavily!

FUCK LABOUR!!!

[shafty]

This is becoming a very interesting post.

Dynamytus has some very relevant points. There has never been an issue for somebody who has nothing to offer, to claim residency into NZ. Especially under Asylum.

Yes, there are organisations in NZ that know what these crimes are. They are held silent whilst the legal battle resumes.

Zaoui is desperate now, his lawyer is trying a pity stance to attempt to get his residency to be granted. This way, his multiple wives will be granted automatic access to New Zealand residency along with their many children.
If Zaoui gets residency, over 30 of his family will automatically recieve residency. In turn, their extended families can apply also.

Why do you think this has taken five years now?

Simple - Helen Clark and the United Nations.

I kid you not. A national party would have deported him 5 five years ago.
Because National are for New Zealanders - Not refugees!

Her allegiance to a corrupt and third world dominant United Nations is the real reason that this case is not thrown out the door with Zaoui being deported instantly. Helen is too PC and is playing the puppet with her strings pulled by the UN council.

I see in the last week. Tha John Keys mentioned feeding school children at the cost of companies. I thought this sounded very strange but it turns out, the issue is larger than we know. Kept quiet by the government. However, the facts are there and as a result - The International Red Cross are coming to New Zealand to setup an operation to address the problem at the IRC's cost.
This is because we are too buisy paying our taxes to the multitude of non-working refugees and multiple benefits introduced by Labour.
And then we hear about Cullen's idea of taxing mortgages??? Shouldn't it be a give and take system? We pay interest - Thats the take. We recieve an immediate roof over our heads - Thats the give. Why is the government trying to double the take?

Why don't they scrap their benefits and United Nations Refugees policies and reap the rewards? Oh thats right, coz it won't make Helen look good to the corrupt third world run UN Council. Thats why we're taxed so heavily!

FUCK LABOUR!!!

I like the way you think. Give the Guy a bullet. Get rid of soft cock Labour and give NZ some pride back.

[imdying]

Tie him to a 205L drum, and drop him out the back of a herc somewhere off the coast. Not the cheapest solution, but hella entertaining.

[Dafe]

Considering his legal fees have already cost the NZ tax payers 2.5 million.

It isn't an expensive option. I'll happily pay for the drum.

[idleidolidyll]

It scares me that we have ignorant Kiwis willing to condemn someone on the basis of hearsay just like the USA does.

What's next; National stealing the govt in the way Bush stole the Yank govt?

Unquestioning obedience leads directly to fascism

[imdying]

As I understand it, he arrived here illegally. That should mean instant deportation.Nuff said really...

[blackkatana]

He knew what he was doing, flushed his passport down the shitter and pleaded asylum. Pack his bags and send him out. NOW!!!

[DougB]

I think it is a terrible disgusting disgrace to our country that this matter has been allowed to drag on and I feel ashamed for us. He should have been dealt with within weeks of arrival and either sent on his way or given shelter.

I will vote for the party that puts processes in place to avoid this sort of inhumain treatment to anyone whether innocent or guilty.

[MisterD]

It scares me that we have ignorant Kiwis willing to condemn someone on the basis of hearsay just like the USA does.

What's next; National stealing the govt in the way Bush stole the Yank govt?

Unquestioning obedience leads directly to fascism

We pay our taxes to have the SIS keep us safe, I don't care that they're keeping what they know secret it's their job and I'm happy to let them do it.

Applying "innocent until proved guilty" in this case is nonsense, the French and Belgian equivalents of SIS know their stuff, they made life unpleasant for the North African terrorists and sympathisers in their countries so they de-camped for tolerant old London...and we all know how this story ended, don't we?

The standard we need to apply here is "better safe than sorry". Kick him out.

BTW, we've already had the Labour party steal this government on the back of the money they stole off us.

[idleidolidyll]

We pay our taxes to have the SIS keep us safe, I don't care that they're keeping what they know secret it's their job and I'm happy to let them do it.

Applying "innocent until proved guilty" in this case is nonsense, the French and Belgian equivalents of SIS know their stuff, they made life unpleasant for the North African terrorists and sympathisers in their countries so they de-camped for tolerant old London...and we all know how this story ended, don't we?

The standard we need to apply here is "better safe than sorry". Kick him out.

BTW, we've already had the Labour party steal this government on the back of the money they stole off us.

the word naieve springs to mind.

the SIS is just about as abusive and self serving as the CIA, Mossad and all the other secret agencies.
I for one am disgusted that anyone trusts them unquestioningly.

I suggest you read The Hollow Men by Nicky Hagar; National was even more corrupt than Labour at the last elections but managed to lie better.

[The_Dover]

you filthy communist.

go back to china.

[MisterD]

the word naieve springs to mind.

the SIS is just about as abusive and self serving as the CIA, Mossad and all the other secret agencies.
I for one am disgusted that anyone trusts them unquestioningly.

I suggest you read The Hollow Men by Nicky Hagar; National was even more corrupt than Labour at the last elections but managed to lie better.

Well for mine, I'm disgusted that leftie conspiracy theorists think that just because some stuff has to be kept secret, it means that these services are anything other than a bunch of professionals trying to do the best job they can.

As you can tell I have no time for leftie conspiracy theories, so I'll not bother with your recommended reading list ta.

[idleidolidyll]

Well for mine, I'm disgusted that leftie conspiracy theorists think that just because some stuff has to be kept secret, it means that these services are anything other than a bunch of professionals trying to do the best job they can.

As you can tell I have no time for leftie conspiracy theories, so I'll not bother with your recommended reading list ta.

ignorance is bliss i suppose

[SPman]

It scares me that we have ignorant Kiwis willing to condemn someone on the basis of hearsay just like the USA does.

What's next; National stealing the govt in the way Bush stole the Yank govt?

Unquestioning obedience leads directly to fascism

Well - Keys is already treading the same tricky path that Brash tried to tread....

[MisterD]

ignorance is bliss i suppose

No point in cluttering up valuable brain-space which could be used to hold all kinds of trivia.

[idleidolidyll]

Well - Keys is already treading the same tricky path that Brash tried to tread....

John Keys is slime and so transparent you can see the wall behind him in interviews.
I trust him as far as I could throw a Hummer.

Wages in NZ have been driven to record lows (inflation adjusted), the trend started with the fake left politics of Roger Douglas (who started the right wing's most fascist party: ACT) and continued with Nationals Employment Contracts Act (perhaps NZ's most odious employment act ever).

Only the Employment Relations Act has seen some of the worst of those abuses ended but not reversed.

[idleidolidyll]

No point in cluttering up valuable brain-space which could be used to hold all kinds of trivia.

just leave it empty eh?!

each to their own, I prefer making decisions (electoral) with real knowledge. If you prefer not to know the facts before you vote, then that's your right and of course my right to condemn those who vote out of ignorance.

[Toaster]

Looks like the popular view is that we should deport him - but since when has the Labour Govt ever listened to what the people want anyway?

[SPman]

We pay our taxes to have the SIS keep us safe, I don't care that they're keeping what they know secret it's their job and I'm happy to let them do it.

Applying "innocent until proved guilty" in this case is nonsense, the French and Belgian equivalents of SIS know their stuff, they made life unpleasant for the North African terrorists and sympathisers in their countries so they de-camped for tolerant old London...and we all know how this story ended, don't we?

The standard we need to apply here is "better safe than sorry". Kick him out.

BTW, we've already had the Labour party steal this government on the back of the money they stole off us.
What a load of drivel!

[The_Dover]

give him the chair!

[mstriumph]

arriving here illegally seems to have been a deliberate act

the case seems to be well publicised - so the verdict will be, too

whichever way the verdict goes, it will send a very clear message to other would-be illegals

there's a choice to be made ............ now
- no such future choice will be possible if this man is granted residency

seems to me that the descision is obvious?
NZ cannot afford to grant him residency

i, too, am embarrassed at the length of time it has taken the authorities to process this

[bistard]

he is a lying shitbag & send him,well anywhere but here
How much did it cost us the taxpayer to go through court &
keep him in prison,now his bloody family want ot get in on it
Fuck them all I say

[The_Dover]

yeah, no more niggers.

Keep New Zealand White!!!

[SwanTiger]

FUCK LABOUR!!!
Fag.

You talk so much shit, who fucken cares about politics, you're as bad as the fags who support stupid institutions such as the "All Blacks".

"Blah Blah Blah, I trumpet this collective of fags because I'm a fag too".

FUCK DAFE!!!

Homo.

[SwanTiger]

yeah, no more niggers.

Keep New Zealand White!!!
It's keep New Zealand green you shetland reject!

Then again, white bread, once it turns mouldy it does go a greeny colour. I see your thinking.

[MisterD]

just leave it empty eh?!

each to their own, I prefer making decisions (electoral) with real knowledge. If you prefer not to know the facts before you vote, then that's your right and of course my right to condemn those who vote out of ignorance.

Oh come on. The National Party talked to the Bretheren and that's bad, the Labour party are big friends with Ratana and that's ok?
National Party are pro-business and therefore have donors from that sector, which is bad, the Labour party are beholden to the unions and that's ok?

I would challenge you to name any issue on which the National Party has introduced any covert policy which would contradict what we would expect of them, purely to buy votes.
The Clarke/Cullen show, on the other hand suddenly decides to make student loans interest free...can anyone say cynical vote buying?

[MisterD]

What a load of drivel!

Yeah, and up yours too.

[Indiana_Jones]

if all those other countries didn't want him, there must be something wrong with him. kick the fucker out.

-Indy

[Guitana]

give him the chair!

He's already got a fully furnished flat care of the NZ taxpayer!!!!!

Oh you mean the ELECTRIC CHAIR!!!!!

Nothing like a crispy critter!!

[idleidolidyll]

Oh come on. The National Party talked to the Bretheren and that's bad, the Labour party are big friends with Ratana and that's ok?
National Party are pro-business and therefore have donors from that sector, which is bad, the Labour party are beholden to the unions and that's ok?

I would challenge you to name any issue on which the National Party has introduced any covert policy which would contradict what we would expect of them, purely to buy votes.
The Clarke/Cullen show, on the other hand suddenly decides to make student loans interest free...can anyone say cynical vote buying?

What's the point?

You've already dismissed the latest evidence out of hand and clearly demonstrated that you prefer to live in sycophantic redneck ignorance (ode to latest reputation sent) than to read and understand the disgusting lies and abuses of the National Party and others outed in Hagars book.

In doing that you have demonstarted that regarless of where I point you, you will refuse to go and read up on it.

There's no hope for you, you'll live and vote in ignorance for the rest of your life.

BTW: When did I say that National was bad and Labour was good? I didn't; you merely posted your beliefs as if they were fact.

I don't vote Labour, they are not as dishonest as National but they still lie and mislead.

Now either read what is offered or just admit outright that you prefer ignorance to knowledge

[dawnrazor]

wheres the " I don't care" option

[MisterD]

What's the point?

You've already dismissed the latest evidence out of hand and clearly demonstrated that you prefer to live in sycophantic redneck ignorance (ode to latest reputation sent) than to read and understand the disgusting lies and abuses of the National Party and others outed in Hagars book.

I'll take that as a compliment shall I? I prefer not to give credence to whackos with an axe to grind and just use the "ignore" button as it were.



There's no hope for you, you'll live and vote in ignorance for the rest of your life.

I've been around long enough to make my own mind up from what I see and hear of people, and more importantly from the correlation, or lack of it between that and their actions. It's a lot more reliable than swallowing someone else's interpretation. You should try it some time.




BTW: When did I say that National was bad and Labour was good? I didn't; you merely posted your beliefs as if they were fact.

What did I say that was other than fact (apart from assuming you were a Labour voter for which I apologise, don't want to get into abuse of a fellow member territory, do I).



Now either read what is offered or just admit outright that you prefer ignorance to knowledge

I'm always happy to learn, but on the spectrum of useful, informative literature with a political subject "The Hollow Men" is hardly the memoirs of Winston Churchill.

[idleidolidyll]

I'll take that as a compliment shall I? I prefer not to give credence to whackos with an axe to grind and just use the "ignore" button as it were.

I've been around long enough to make my own mind up from what I see and hear of people, and more importantly from the correlation, or lack of it between that and their actions. It's a lot more reliable than swallowing someone else's interpretation. You should try it some time.

What did I say that was other than fact (apart from assuming you were a Labour voter for which I apologise, don't want to get into abuse of a fellow member territory, do I).

I'm always happy to learn, but on the spectrum of useful, informative literature with a political subject "The Hollow Men" is hardly the memoirs of Winston Churchill.


The memoirs of Winnie the demogogue?!?
Fuckin hilarious! Winnie was a terrorist and a grorss abuser. If he'd been around in modern times he'd have rated as worse than Maggie the bitch!

BTW: You define ridiculous. First you reject, without reading, the latest evidence of National and other parties abuses and lies, then you ask me to prove that National lies!

Good grief man, stop the sanctimonious claptrap about how 'informed' you are, you as informed as the old saying goes:
"There are none so blind as they who will not see"

[Guitana]

Quote of the day.

[SPman]

Yeah, and up yours too.
Why........thank you.

I think Dover would be more receptive though....

[Hitcher]

Hopefully the personal abuse is at an end. If it continues or worsens there will be consequences for the offenders.

[The_Dover]

you tell them hitler.

i'm not receptive to any strangers up me.

they got to at least buy me a drink first.

i'm no ho.

[nudemetalz]

A .50cal passport should sort him out....that's what he would have been used to in the rag-head nations.

[Lias]

Deport him, or simply shoot him and send the body home.

Either works fine for me.

[Lias]

I suggest you read The Hollow Men by Nicky Hagar; National was even more corrupt than Labour at the last elections but managed to lie better.

Nicky Hagar is a traitor to his country who should be tried for sedition and hung by the neck until dead.

I would gladly piss on his grave, hes a fucking disgrace.

[Guitana]

Nicky Hagar is a traitor to his country who should be tried for sedition and hung by the neck until dead.

I would gladly piss on his grave, hes a fucking disgrace.

Don't be too hard on NICK he's just trying to earn the respect of his fellow Kiwis by exposing the corrupt dealings of the GOVT and big buisness.
It was hard for Nick growing up as a fumbling spotty teenager who only discovered masturbation at the age of 21!
The bullying was relentless and none of the local girls would kiss him when they played spin the bottle!
It's hard being a geek and even harder to be taken serious when you look like one !!!!

[MisterD]

The memoirs of Winnie the demogogue?!?
Fuckin hilarious! Winnie was a terrorist and a grorss abuser. If he'd been around in modern times he'd have rated as worse than Maggie the bitch!

BTW: You define ridiculous. First you reject, without reading, the latest evidence of National and other parties abuses and lies, then you ask me to prove that National lies!

Good grief man, stop the sanctimonious claptrap about how 'informed' you are, you as informed as the old saying goes:
"There are none so blind as they who will not see"

1) You'd prefer to be speaking German or Japanese then?

2) I'm not asking for proof, merely an allegation of where National could be seen to be deviating from the policies everyone would expect of them anyway. That's the contention isn't it? That they're hiding something?

[Sniper]

Wheres the 7.62 option?

[idleidolidyll]

Nicky Hagar is a traitor to his country who should be tried for sedition and hung by the neck until dead.

I would gladly piss on his grave, hes a fucking disgrace.

please elucidate: i need a good laugh.

BTW: have you read any of his books?

[The_Dover]

Nicky Hagar is a traitor to his country who should be tried for sedition and hung by the neck until dead.

I would gladly piss on his grave, hes a fucking disgrace.

the same goes for Sammy Hagar.

[idleidolidyll]

1) You'd prefer to be speaking German or Japanese then?

2) I'm not asking for proof, merely an allegation of where National could be seen to be deviating from the policies everyone would expect of them anyway. That's the contention isn't it? That they're hiding something?

Speaking German or Japanese? Good grief mate, that's just SO old and worn out. Please, get some new and better material.

Of course they are hiding something. If they were not hiding something why didn't they come clean about the Bretheren?
As for what they are hiding specifically; who knows at any one time? Certainly not people who refuse to ask questions.

As I've said, any accusation I would make against the Nats you'd deny and demand proof. Given that you have pre-denied the latest proof of Nationals lies and its hidden agenda and secret obligations to donors, there's just no point debating with you.

As for your earlier comment that the Nats 'talked' to the Bretheren; ROTFLMFAO! They did more than talk, they organised a national campaign to elect the Nats using massive donations. Those donations don't come free of charge. Just as with the fascist Yank govt, they come with strings attached and demands for policy that the donors require to be passed.

National lied directly about their involvement with the Bretheren and they continue to lie and cover up to this day. In fact the Bretheren met with Don, John and Stephen Joyce on many occassions. They planned the strategy and National OK'd the Bretheren campaign.
You'd know this if you read Hagar's book and given that Brash has still not taken him to court for anything, it's likely that there is nothing in the book that is wrong.

Accepting unquestioningly whatever you're told is the road to a dictatorship or to a fascist controlled govt. The mainstream media is often worthless given that they too are large corporates and as with the USA, unlikely to attack the very advertisers who pay all their bills.

So where could they deviate from policies? Well you'll never know if you refuse to ask the question and to investigate more or accept proof when offered. Just what policies do you think the Business Round Table and Bretheren want National to push through? The last time they had power they created some of the worst employment legislation ever and handed almost dictatorial control to employers.
I suspect our No Nukes policy was on the line this time as well as accepting bullshit yank copyright (recently increased unilaterally to 100 years), bullshit military intervention, easier access to foreigners to buy out NZ and perhaps even yank warship visits regardless of their weaponry.

Goodbye, I'm over you

[Lias]

please elucidate: i need a good laugh.

BTW: have you read any of his books?

I've partially read "Secret Power", I couldnt finish reading it because his politics and views make me physically ill.

I believe his "exposure" of SIS/GCHB intelligence activities is an act of legal high treason against our nation. The punishment for high treason is (or was until the woofters outlawed it) being hung, drawn, and quartered.

His campaign against Don Brash didnt exactly endear him to me either.

[idleidolidyll]

Nicky Hagar is a traitor to his country who should be tried for sedition and hung by the neck until dead.

I would gladly piss on his grave, hes a fucking disgrace.

Actually it is the Nats who are traitors to their country in that they are quite prepared to sell NZ to the lowest bidder as long as their corporate buddies make a profit in the meantime.

[Lias]

Accepting unquestioningly whatever you're told is the road to a dictatorship or to a fascist controlled govt.

Blindly questioning authority at every turn is the road to being a fucking lefty prat whos rebelling against mummy & daddy.

I'd rather live in a facist state than a communist one thats for sure!

[idleidolidyll]

I've partially read "Secret Power", I couldnt finish reading it because his politics and views make me physically ill.

I believe his "exposure" of SIS/GCHB intelligence activities is an act of legal high treason against our nation. The punishment for high treason is (or was until the woofters outlawed it) being hung, drawn, and quartered.

His campaign against Don Brash didnt exactly endear him to me either.

Your beliefs are quite meaningless given that not the SIS, the Police, the Courts nor any of the politicians he has slammed have been able to find any way to legally prosecute him.

The upshot is pretty obvious: His work is pretty much on the money

[idleidolidyll]

Blindly questioning authority at every turn is the road to being a fucking lefty prat whos rebelling against mummy & daddy.

I'd rather live in a facist state than a communist one thats for sure!

and do you think those are the only choices?
what about a socialist state?

the socialist states in Europe consistently rate as the best to live in with the most freedom etc.

My humble suggestion is that you go fulfill your wish and move to Amerikkka, the latest fascist state where your freedom and democracy is a joke and you can be arrested at any time without any representation.

Hell, maybe Bush will employ you on his maximum security ranch in central America. The one he's set up so that he can't be extradicted after he is indicted for his crimes.

good luck, you'll need it.

[Lias]

I dont particularly like america, or Dubya, and if you think Americas a facist state you have got your head screwed on wrong. America's a corporate dicatatorship. So err no thanks I'll pass on the offer to live in the US.

Freedom of speech is a good thing to a degree, but nicky hagar is pretty much the political version of a paparazzi chasing celebs for the gossip rags. He is very much a political spin doctor, attempting to put his spin on events. Do his writings have some basis in fact? Sure I'm happy to believe that. Does he spin it to cast the worst possible light on the matter? Absolutely he does.

PS: Indicting people for "war crimes" and even the whole concept of "war crimes is another fucked up PC idea..In war, there are no rules, no laws, there is just winning.

[nudemetalz]

Wheres the 7.62 option?

.50cal makes for a more spectacular show:2guns: ....

[Indiana_Jones]

As for your earlier comment that the Nats 'talked' to the Bretheren; ROTFLMFAO! They did more than talk, they organised a national campaign to elect the Nats using massive donations. Those donations don't come free of charge. Just as with the fascist Yank govt, they come with strings attached and demands for policy that the donors require to be passed.

You make it sound like a bad thing getting funding lol

Not like labour doesn't get funding from fucking unions :P

-Indy

[idleidolidyll]

You make it sound like a bad thing getting funding lol

Not like labour doesn't get funding from fucking unions :P

-Indy

absolutely!

you should always know what the backer$ get out of it; business, unions, interest groups, clubs etc

if you don't, you're what a dictionary describes as 'ignorant' of the facts.

i reckon we're all kept ignorant to a degree but i for one don't like it, i don't trust them to decide what i shouldn't know.

[idleidolidyll]

I dont particularly like america, or Dubya, and if you think Americas a facist state you have got your head screwed on wrong. America's a corporate dicatatorship. So err no thanks I'll pass on the offer to live in the US.

Freedom of speech is a good thing to a degree, but nicky hagar is pretty much the political version of a paparazzi chasing celebs for the gossip rags. He is very much a political spin doctor, attempting to put his spin on events. Do his writings have some basis in fact? Sure I'm happy to believe that. Does he spin it to cast the worst possible light on the matter? Absolutely he does.

PS: Indicting people for "war crimes" and even the whole concept of "war crimes is another fucked up PC idea..In war, there are no rules, no laws, there is just winning.

ummmm, a 'corporate dictatorship' basically IS a fascist government.

a system of exreme right wing dictatorial govt usually with a huge links to big business and the military; does that sound like amerika? The MIC as they are collectively known

it's a description of fascism

nicky hagar may be an ambulance chaser but chasing political lies is hardly in the minor leagues of celeb hunting. Political truth is fundamental to a free society and to real democracy.
Of course he spins it, everyone spins everything their own way. He does offer some of the opposition rationale while at the same time generally dissecting it as he does.

i'm just as happy for right wing ambulance chasers to out the labour party and anyone else lying to Kiwis or committing crimes.

war crimes? sigh!
war crimes like slitting the throats of men womand and child civilians to make their friends talk?
like killing a whole group of people because you don't like their noses?
you think people SHOULD be taken prisoner and tortured without ever having the right to defend themselves or be seen by their relatives?

you and i are on different planets; perhaps you live in another dimension and i'll never meet you

one can but live and hope

[Lias]

ummmm, a 'corporate dictatorship' basically IS a fascist government.

a system of exreme right wing dictatorial govt usually with a huge links to big business and the military; does that sound like amerika? The MIC as they are collectively known

it's a description of fascism

There are some parallels, because corpratism is a form of authoritarian government, but equally they are as diffrent as facism and monarchy (another form of authoitarian government) are.


i'm just as happy for right wing ambulance chasers to out the labour party and anyone else lying to Kiwis or committing crimes.


Labour commit their crimes in public.. Pretty much their entire policy manifesto are crimes against the nation in my book.


war crimes? sigh!
war crimes like slitting the throats of men womand and child civilians to make their friends talk?
like killing a whole group of people because you don't like their noses?
you think people SHOULD be taken prisoner and tortured without ever having the right to defend themselves or be seen by their relatives?
Is it right? Maybe not. My point is that winning a war is the only rule that should (and in reality mostly does) apply to soliders.

By your standards my brother would never have been born, because his father was in the SAS in Vietnam, and it was common for them to do whatever it took to get information.


you and i are on different planets; perhaps you live in another dimension and I'll never meet you

one can but live and hope

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm right here in your dimension. I'm also willing to fight for what I believe is right, be it with a vote, my fists or a gun, something most lefties dont have the testicular fortitude to do.

[pete376403]

PS: Indicting people for "war crimes" and even the whole concept of "war crimes is another fucked up PC idea..In war, there are no rules, no laws, there is just winning.

So Auschwitz, Belsen, etc were ok when considered in the context of the time and events taking place? The Nuremberg Trials were just a bunch of PC claptrap?

[Lias]

So Auschwitz, Belsen, etc were ok when considered in the context of the time and events taking place? The Nuremberg Trials were just a bunch of PC claptrap?

Yes.

They believed what they were doing was justified to win. Just as the allied bombing command believed what they were doing was right when they bombed dresden, tokyo, hiroshima and nagasaki.

The germans considered themselves in a war for survival with the jews.

I do always find it ironic when people bring up the holocaust though, because Stalin and Mao killed millions and millions more but they didnt get beaten by America in a war :-) The victor always writes history.

[Ixion]

I've partially read "Secret Power", I couldnt finish reading it because his politics and views make me physically ill.

I believe his "exposure" of SIS/GCHB intelligence activities is an act of legal high treason against our nation. The punishment for high treason is (or was until the woofters outlawed it) being hung, drawn, and quartered.

His campaign against Don Brash didnt exactly endear him to me either.

Nonsense. The definition of treason is quite concise (the "high" is redundant nowdays, petty treason is obsolete in law). It is contained in the Crimes Act 1961 (Parts of the Statute of Treasosn 27 Edw III are still extant but they say the same thing)


73Treason

Every one owing allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen in right of New Zealand commits treason who, within or outside New Zealand,—

(a)Kills or wounds or does grievous bodily harm to Her Majesty the Queen, or imprisons or restrains her; or
(b)Levies war against New Zealand; or
(c)Assists an enemy at war with New Zealand, or any armed forces against which New Zealand forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between New Zealand and any other country; or
(d)Incites or assists any person with force to invade New Zealand; or
(e)Uses force for the purpose of overthrowing the Government of New Zealand; or
(f)Conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in this section.


Now, which one of these does the "exposure" fal under?

And the punishment of hanging drawing and quartering (only for a man, women were burned) was abolished in the 18th century, a fair while before any of the woofters were around.

[Lias]

Nonsense. The definition of treason is quite concise (the "high" is redundant nowdays, petty treason is obsolete in law). It is contained in the Crimes Act 1961 (Parts of the Statute of Treasosn 27 Edw III are still extant but they say the same thing)

Now, which one of these does the "exposure" fal under?

And the punishment of hanging drawing and quartering (only for a man, women were burned) was abolished in the 18th century, a fair while before any of the woofters were around.


or if a man do levy war against our
lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King's enemies in his realm,
giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere,

Our modern law on high treason is just a derivation of the 1351 law, and as far as I'm concerned Nick Hagar gave aid and comfort to the enemies of this country by his publication of things which are best kept secret in the interests of national security (queue black helicopters here).

[Ixion]

So Auschwitz, Belsen, etc were ok when considered in the context of the time and events taking place? The Nuremberg Trials were just a bunch of PC claptrap?

In a strictly legalistic sense Mr Lias is correct. Since the government of a sovereign state is answerable to no external authority , people committing acts sanctioned by their state (assuming that the state be internationally recognised) , no matter how despicable, are acting lawfully.

Most of those charged at Nuremberg were not charged with "war" crimes, but with acts that were criminal under the justice code of the Reich (eg murdering prisoners etc - like the Abu Gharib cases) . Only the "high profile" leaders were charged with the rather woofly "war" crime type charges . Such as "waging aggressive war" - always struck me as quite absurd. Would any general NOT wage war aggressively? Churchill and Montgomery (let alone Patton!) certainly waged war very aggressively. But the show trial has always been one of the spoils of war. Like the trial of Saddam Hussein.

The reality is of course, that vae victrix is ever the lot of the vanquished - just that nowdays it is thought necessary to provide a pseudo-legal gloss

[Ixion]

Our modern law on high treason is just a derivation of the 1351 law, and as far as I'm concerned Nick Hagar gave aid and comfort to the enemies of this country by his publication of things which are best kept secret in the interests of national security (queue black helicopters here).

Yes, the act of 1351 is 27 Edw III.

But you need to read that (very old) act imparting to the words the specific sense of their day . "Enemies" in this context means enemies with whom war has actually been declared. Persons inimical or hostile to the King are not "enemies" within the definition (there is much case law on this). Mainly I guess because in those days it was assumed that ALL foreigners were inimical and hostile - but not all were at open war. So as New Zealand has not actually declared war on anyone for a while , the clause cannot be invoked . A very tenuous argument could be made if any of the information could be shown to directly assist those forces in Iraq or Afganistan against whom NZ troops are engaged.

It is many years since treason was used as a charge in such cases, almost always one of the various Official Secrets Acts , or Defence of the Realm Acts is much simpler. Not least perhaps because to establish treason, intent must be shown - you would have to prove that the gentleman in question INTENDED to assist the Queen's enemies. Not merely that his careless or improvident release of information was useful to them . Whereas the OSA type acts, the deed is self sufficient. You leaked the information, you're guilty. Indeed even if you didn't intend the leak at all, let alone intend it to help any enemy

[klingon]

Have any of you actually read the findings of the refugee status appeal authority on this case? (Refugee Status Appeals Authority New Zealand Refugee Appeal # 74540, 1 August 2003. Available online if anyone's interested.)

After reading it thoroughly and doing other research, I am convinced that Ahmed Zaoui is not a terrorist, but a genuine refugee.

The final line of the finding is "The authority finds that the appellant is a refugee within the meaning of Article 1A(2) of the Refugee Convention. Refugee status is granted. The appeal is allowed." In other words, the RSAA found that he is a genuine refugee. Their reasons are laid out in detail in their report. It's hundreds of pages long and very exhaustive, so I won't go into details here.



So, who has been paying for him since 2002? Let me think! Oh Yes. That would be you and me. If he gets residency, who will be paying for him? Let me think!.....

The cost involved in keeping Zaoui in prison have indeed been borne by the NZ taxpayer. Why have we been keeping him in prison? Because of the secret allegations about him. The cost has been caused by those making the secret allegations, not by Zaoui. I'm sure he would be very happy to be earning his living as a University lecturer (as he was in Algeria) but we have banned him from working.

Since his release on bail a couple of years ago, he has been living with a group of Catholic monks who have taken him in and cared for him.


Zaoui is desperate now, his lawyer is trying a pity stance to attempt to get his residency to be granted. This way, his multiple wives will be granted automatic access to New Zealand residency along with their many children.

Zaoui has one wife and three children. I think the true desperation can be seen in people who need to invent nonsense because the facts don't support their argument.


He's already got a fully furnished flat care of the NZ taxpayer!!!!!


He lives in a monastery. His furniture has been provided by a group of Catholic monks who hardly have anything themselves, but have chosen to share what they do have. Good on them for demonstrating the humanity that seems to be so sadly lacking in 'main stream' society.

[Lias]

Good on them for demonstrating the humanity that seems to be so sadly lacking in 'main stream' society.
When NZ is a perfect utopia with no crime, no poverty, etc then we should look at accepting refugees, and giving foreign aid.

Until then fuck em!

PS: What Zhaoui should have is a bullet, a flight home, or the scummiest dankest cell we can find in the nz prison system and a diet ofbread and water.

[oldrider]

Have any of you actually read the findings of the refugee status appeal authority on this case? (Refugee Status Appeals Authority New Zealand Refugee Appeal # 74540, 1 August 2003. Available online if anyone's interested.)

After reading it thoroughly and doing other research, I am convinced that Ahmed Zaoui is not a terrorist, but a genuine refugee.

The final line of the finding is "The authority finds that the appellant is a refugee within the meaning of Article 1A(2) of the Refugee Convention. Refugee status is granted. The appeal is allowed." In other words, the RSAA found that he is a genuine refugee. Their reasons are laid out in detail in their report. It's hundreds of pages long and very exhaustive, so I won't go into details here.




The cost involved in keeping Zaoui in prison have indeed been borne by the NZ taxpayer. Why have we been keeping him in prison? Because of the secret allegations about him. The cost has been caused by those making the secret allegations, not by Zaoui. I'm sure he would be very happy to be earning his living as a University lecturer (as he was in Algeria) but we have banned him from working.

Since his release on bail a couple of years ago, he has been living with a group of Catholic monks who have taken him in and cared for him.



Zaoui has one wife and three children. I think the true desperation can be seen in people who need to invent nonsense because the facts don't support their argument.



He lives in a monastery. His furniture has been provided by a group of Catholic monks who hardly have anything themselves, but have chosen to share what they do have. Good on them for demonstrating the humanity that seems to be so sadly lacking in 'main stream' society.

Yes and as one of the Catholics that collectively donate money to the Catholic church I resent them spending it (my religious tax) on an international terrorist who's own organisation hates Christianity and are probably laughing hysterically at the stupidity of the Christians anyway. :nono:

Love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek is all very well but with a viper on your doorstep just get rid of it before it fatally bights you. :shit: John.

[idleidolidyll]

In a strictly legalistic sense Mr Lias is correct. Since the government of a sovereign state is answerable to no external authority , people committing acts sanctioned by their state (assuming that the state be internationally recognised) , no matter how despicable, are acting lawfully.


actually, in todays world a sovereign govt IS answerable to outside nations/institutions if they have signed specific accords related to their actions. The formation of the UN from the League of Nations required the initial signatories to ratify the Geneva convention and others thereby signing said legislation into the laws of each nation.

Likewise, all nations as signatories to the ICC or similar internatiopnal tribunals are liable to prosecution outside their own nations.

That is partly why Bush has a property in Paraguay: Paraguay is not a signatory to the ICC and when Bush is indicted for war crimes he will not face extradition from that country. His property is one of the worlds most highly guarded.

Even if a nation has NOT signed such accords their decision makers can still be extradicted from certain nations to face trial in the Hague as some of the yank govt may face if current German indictments are upheld.

[idleidolidyll]

learn how to recognise it

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

[idleidolidyll]

Yes and as one of the Catholics that collectively donate money to the Catholic church I resent them spending it (my religious tax) on an international terrorist who's own organisation hates Christianity and are probably laughing hysterically at the stupidity of the Christians anyway. :nono:

Love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek is all very well but with a viper on your doorstep just get rid of it before it fatally bights you. :shit: John.

there ya go making accusations without the facts: as noted, the Refugee Status Appeals Authority New Zealand Refugee Appeal has already stated that he is a legitimate reugee not a terrorist.

the ball is in the SIS court: put up or shut up and let the legal system work transparently.

as for

[idleidolidyll]

When NZ is a perfect utopia with no crime, no poverty, etc then we should look at accepting refugees, and giving foreign aid.

Until then fuck em!

PS: What Zhaoui should have is a bullet, a flight home, or the scummiest dankest cell we can find in the nz prison system and a diet ofbread and water.

No country will ever be perfect and unless you are Maori you are probably descenant from some kind of refugee whether that was from ex convicts, irish fleeing famine, dalmations fleeing persecution etc.

if not a refugee but from 'normal' immigrants, your relatives came to this land agreeing to be bound by its laws INCLUDING laws yet to be made (that's democracy).

So will you take your family and go back to where they originally came from? Unlikely but you'll probably still deny similarly unfortunate people the honour of living in this fine country based on what seems to be nothing but prejudice.

as for foreign aid, we give fuck all by world standards; more than the yanks per head but still a pitiful amount

[Flatcap]

the Refugee Status Appeals Authority New Zealand Refugee Appeal has already stated that he is a legitimate reugee not a terrorist.



That's because if they don't encourage refugees they will be out of a job

[idleidolidyll]

That's because if they don't encourage refugees they will be out of a job



huge yawn from here

[Flatcap]

huge yawn from here

Yeah - it must be tiring defending terrorists

[idleidolidyll]

Yeah - it must be tiring defending terrorists

no more tiring than making bullshit accusations based on hearsay and racism

[Flatcap]

no more tiring than making bullshit accusations based on hearsay and racism


Most debates are based on bullshit, hearsay and racism.

Otherwise everyone would agree

[Lias]

no more tiring than making bullshit accusations based on hearsay and racism
Using statistics to show that a violent cirminal is far more likely to be of a certain ethnic group is not racism.

But hey I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree.

PS: Pretty much everyones racist to some degree, one of my maori friends wants to deport "every fucking coconut" (his words not mine).

[Wolf]

ummmm, a 'corporate dictatorship' basically IS a fascist government.

a system of exreme right wing dictatorial govt usually with a huge links to big business and the military; does that sound like amerika? The MIC as they are collectively known

it's a description of fascism
Hitler's Economical stance was Centrist - slightly to the Left of dead centre, in fact.


learn how to recognise it

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm
Not even rense.com agrees with your view that right-wing is linked to fascism - they correctly identify Authoritarian ideals as fascism.

Sorry, but Hitler would have been too much of a "goddam lefty" for GW.

FYI, here are treatises on various means of gauging an individual's (or a country's) political standpoint that, while they are flawed (as is anything that attempts to pigeonhole something as complex as human ideology), are more accurate than the simplistic "Left vs Right" baby-talk that has plagued us since the French Revolution when the terms were coined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pournelle_chart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Smallest_Political_Quiz

Of them, I find a combination of the "Political Compass" and the "World's Smallest Political Quiz" seems to work well.

Fascist nations and the USA are Authoritarian/Totalitarian - as was the former Soviet Union and most of modern China - the whole spectrum from "Left" to "Right".



But back on topic: Zaoui.

Forget the whole "is he a terrorist or merely a victim of an oppressive and spiteful government" shit. :whocares:

He entered the country illegally after having destroyed the documentation he used to board the plane whilst en route to our country - a criminal offence. Deport him for the crime he has committed.

[Flatcap]

Forget the whole "is he a terrorist or merely a victim of an oppressive and spiteful government" shit. :whocares:

He entered the country illegally after having destroyed the documentation he used to board the plane whilst en route to our country - a criminal offence. Deport him for the crime he has committed.

Wolf has hit the nail on the head. This is the issue - everything else is a Red Herring

[Dave Lobster]

Pretty much everyones racist to some degree, one of my maori friends wants to deport "every fucking coconut" (his words not mine).


I'd love to see what would happen to the country if that happened. Look what's happened to all the african states that have had all the white people leave. How well are they doing?

ALSO.. It depends how you define racism, as to how many you catch under its umbrella. My own definition of a racist is someone who hates other people because of the colour of their skin or their ethnic background. Someone who hates people of another background because that person is a c*nt is not a racist.

[maybe]

Apparently there is warrents for his arrest in some other countries for god knows what don;t we have enough crims of our own with out letting others into the country.:shit:

[Wolf]

Apparently there is warrents for his arrest in some other countries for god knows what don;t we have enough crims of our own with out letting others into the country.:shit:
So lets send him to one of them and let their taxpayers foot the bill for a while - they could take it in turns.

Hope one of those countries is Turkey...

[crack]

Too many bleeding hearts.

Idleidolidyll get a grip man.

Have a read of my attachment in Rant/rave:

Todays trouble is we have too many educated liberals.

We are told how to live our lives, run our business's, by educated Queer's.

They tell us how they have their human rights, shit I have to stand by and have my human rights overtaken by their so called greater good?????

Shit! in our government of the day how many of them are GST registered????
How many of them have kids of their own.

As for this prick and his Human Rights, he can stick em up his arse and anyone else that thinks he and his like should be allowed to have a place in our society needs their fucking head removed.

Go live in his country and see what your rights are.

As for the United Nations / NZ connection, the sooner it is severed the better.

A totally corrupt organisation from the top down, and full of multi national queers with degrees.

My Rant, My OPINION:

:shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :shutup: :whocares:

[Swoop]

As for the United Nations / NZ connection, the sooner it is severed the better.

A totally corrupt organisation from the top down, and full of multi national queers with degrees.

The UN. Now we are talking a TRULY bullshit organisation!!!

As for Zaoui. If you destroy your passport on the aircraft, something is rather suspect. Kick the cunt out.

[idleidolidyll]

" Todays trouble is we have too many educated liberals."

hilarious; so we need more dumb conservatives eh?!

[klingon]

He entered the country illegally after having destroyed the documentation he used to board the plane whilst en route to our country - a criminal offence. Deport him for the crime he has committed.

The international refugee conventions say that he had to destroy his passport in order to enter NZ as an asylum seeker. Rather than breaking our laws, he was complying with them.

So, to recap the story, Ahmed Zaoui was a university lecturer in Algeria who was democratically elected to form a government. The military didn't like that, overthrew the democratic government with the help of some corrupt foreign powers, put the elected MPs in prison and tortured and/or murdered them.

Zaoui escaped his torturers (as you would), boarded a plane on a false passport (obviously the Algerian military was not going to issue him with a real one - they were trying to kill him after all). He then destroyed the passport AS REQUIRED BY OUR LAW and requested asylum in NZ as soon as he arrived. Our refugee authority reviewed his case, found that all the 'evidence' of him being a terrorist was lies invented by the dictatorship and its friends, found that he would be tortured and killed if sent back to Algeria, and granted him refugee status.

The SAS saiys they have secret evidence against him and that he should be kept in prison. But they won't tell anyone what the secret evidence is... makes it just a little difficult to defend yourself against it.

Meanwhile Zaoui was released on bail into the care of some Catholic friars and there he remains.

I find it quite astounding that some people here think he should be killed or tortured as punishment for escaping from the people who were torturing him before. He is a man of peace who is being punished for escaping from terrorists.

Would those of you who are accusing Zaoui of being a terrorist please point to some evidence? Then please send it to the Refugee Status Authority because they have searched for this evidence and couldn't find any. So if you have it, you know something that nobody else knows.

[Wolf]

Zaoui escaped his torturers (as you would), boarded a plane on a false passport (obviously the Algerian military was not going to issue him with a real one - they were trying to kill him after all). He then destroyed the passport AS REQUIRED BY OUR LAW and requested asylum in NZ as soon as he arrived.
You seem to have missed out the bit about him using said passport to pass through other countries to come to NZ. Countries in which he could have sought asylum.

[Dave Lobster]

Isn't he obliged to seek asylum in the first peaceful country he got to?

There's direct flights here from Algeria, is there?

Why here? Why not somewhere where he wouldn't get his food/housing/etc paid for by the working types?

[klingon]

Isn't he obliged to seek asylum in the first peaceful country he got to?

There's direct flights here from Algeria, is there?

Why here? Why not somewhere where he wouldn't get his food/housing/etc paid for by the working types?

I believe he first sought asylum in Malaysia, but fled from there when the Malaysian authorities came under pressure from Algeria to turn him over to them so they could execute him.

There are direct flights to NZ from Malaysia.

[petermonkeyguru]

Just imagine if all peoples were considered equal, there was no racism, and religion practised what it preached (love thy neighbour as they self).
Imagine a world without boarders, the rich and poor could move and subsist where ever they pleased, or that sustained them.
Who would live in New Zealand? Where would you choose to live?
Immigration is not really a problem – it’s learning to live with differences and respect other cultures – that’s immigrants accepting our culture in this country as well.
But Zaoui has been convicted of terrorist crime in the past, he committed a crime to get into the country, leave him in Jail or just give him his day in court – make a decision and stick to it so he can get on with his life, be it here or in the country his family live in.
Funny how Maori have been the lest vocal about immigration to our country – when really the rest of us gate crashed them to start off with.
:gob:

[petermonkeyguru]

"The international refugee conventions say that he had to destroy his passport in order to enter NZ as an asylum seeker. Rather than breaking our laws, he was complying with them."


Not from I know of the law - it was a criminal act

"university lecturer in Algeria who was democratically elected to form a government."

Who told you that rubbish? thats a spin on the real facts.

"Our refugee authority reviewed his case, found that all the 'evidence' of him being a terrorist was lies"

No they didn't. and he has never been granted refugee status, as far as I understand.



I wonder about the complexity of the case - and our inhability to trust our government to do the right thing

[klingon]

...But Zaoui has been convicted of terrorist crime in the past, he committed a crime to get into the country...

Please elaborate. What crime has he been convicted of and what crime did he commit to come to NZ?

He exactly followed international requirements to request asylum in NZ (as explained above).

[petermonkeyguru]

Please elaborate. What crime has he been convicted of and what crime did he commit to come to NZ?

He exactly followed international requirements to request asylum in NZ (as explained above).

Zaoui was convicted in absentia in France in 2001 of participation in a criminal group with a view to preparing terrorist acts. And in Belgium in 1996 of being a leader and instigator of a criminal association with the intention of attacking persons and property;
having been released from custody, for home detention, he absconded to Switzerland illegally in 1997 - these are two countries that did not persecute him. He could've continued to lived in Belgium in freedom with his family who were there also. The Swiss authorities were suspicious of what he was involved with - they didnt kick him out, just took away his fax machine and started investigating his activities - what did Zaoui do? ran. He went to Burkina Faso in 1998, then ran to Malaysia in 2000, he ended up here travelling on a forged South African Passport (which he tried to destroy) in December 2002. They found in his possession a video tape of places in Malaysia, Thailand, Laos and Viet Nam that were targeted for terrorist attacks - it was a scoping tape - he has yet to explain this.
Its also important to remember that Mr Zaoui has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights against this Swiss decision, a decision they backed and Zaoui was fairly considered a threat. !!!!

You willing to take a chance on that lot then? Seems like a nice chap

[crack]

Petermonkeyguru:

Kudos to you sir, 100% factual, well stated.

In this case I applaude Aunty Helens reluctance with the man.

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

[Wolf]

Zaoui was convicted in absentia in France in 2001 of participation in a criminal group with a view to preparing terrorist acts. And in Belgium in 1996 of being a leader and instigator of a criminal association with the intention of attacking persons and property;
having been released from custody, for home detention, he absconded to Switzerland illegally in 1997 - these are two countries that did not persecute him. He could've continued to lived in Belgium in freedom with his family who were there also. The Swiss authorities were suspicious of what he was involved with - they didnt kick him out, just took away his fax machine and started investigating his activities - what did Zaoui do? ran. He went to Burkina Faso in 1998, then ran to Malaysia in 2000, he ended up here travelling on a forged South African Passport (which he tried to destroy) in December 2002. They found in his possession a video tape of places in Malaysia, Thailand, Laos and Viet Nam that were targeted for terrorist attacks - it was a scoping tape - he has yet to explain this.
Its also important to remember that Mr Zaoui has appealed to the European Court of Human Rights against this Swiss decision, a decision they backed and Zaoui was fairly considered a threat. !!!!

You willing to take a chance on that lot then? Seems like a nice chap
But don't you see?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The French, the Belgians and the Swiss are all in a ginormous conspiracy with the Algerian Military-Terrorist government to falsify reports against this innocent man - the foul tentacles of the Lizard Army spread far and wide - reports of Black Helicopters all over Europe are proof-positive of this!

Still don't like Tui, gimme a vodka!

Seems like a hell of a difference from fleeing to Malaysia direct from Algeria and having to flee to NZ lest the evil Malays hand him over to the evil Algerians, doesn't it.

Safe in Belgium and Switzerland and suddenly feels the need to "escape" to NZ on falsified documents (I note he was fleeing from neutral Switzerland on false documents, not "Terrorist" Algeria) when people start investigating his activities...

But, yeah, he's an innocent victim of an evil regime...

Frankly, if the Swiss - famous for not having any agenda other than their own - have reason to be suspicious of him, I don't see why we should extend him any hospitality.

Let's send him back to Switzerland - they seem quite happy for him to stay there so long as he doesn't do anything naughty while they investigate his activities...

[Hitcher]

Hmmm. Toblerone...

[Wolf]

Hmmm, just had a thought.

Maybe - and this is just a wild, off-the-wall supposition, here - maybe the SIS is privy to information known to the Swiss, Belgians and French (and perhaps others) that is still classified as sensitive so maybe they're telling the truth about having certain information but are not free to divulge it.


Nah, what am I thinking?!?!?! It's all a vast conspiracy with the Algerians and our SIS would never have checked Zaoui's background out with European intelligence agencies. They're just making it up because it's fun to persecute random people seeking refugee status...

[SPman]

I'll stick this on here as a wrap up...no one will read it but....I agree with Bomber by the way.

"The ignorance of NZers


I asked some wee blogger on this site who Mr Zaoui was and all they were able to give me was a list of charges from European Courts which sums up the totality of ignorance NZers seem to have on who Zaoui is and what he represents.

So let’s talk about Zaoui – he was a democratically elected member of an Islamic party in Algeria up against a repressive Government, backed to the hilt by the French who had massive oil and gas interests in Algeria. Zaoui’s party intended to take those oil and gas revenues and spend them on the people of Algeria, this of course was intolerable to the French who the minute Zaoui's party won, backed the military in a coup to throw out the democratically elected government of Zaoui and started a massacre on Zaoui's supporters. Zaoui fled and on the bequest of the French found himself being charged using secret evidence in absentee, all in part to discredit Zaoui’s party and hide the French backed brutality. Of course all ignorant knee jerk red necked NZers know is the French side of the story, France of course tested nuclear weapons in our back yard for decades and lied about the radioactivity leaking into the pacific and are of course the only nation to have attacked our country with a terrorist bombing of the rainbow warrior in Auckland, all this after NZers spilled blood in two world wars defending French soil. So why the fuck dumb, red necked NZers would NOW choose to believe anything the fucking French have to say is well beyond me.

We’ve talked about who Zaoui is, so let’s talk about DUMB New Zealanders shall we? Here is the example of how DUMB NZers are.

NZers are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo dumb, that the interviewer who originally asked Zaoui of he was a member of a radical Islamic group who were operating in Algeria at the time, and who were responsible for some violence but a group nevertheless that had nothing to do with Zaoui’s party whatsoever – when Zaoui said NO, the interviewer misunderstood that NO as a YES, leading to a breathless press release to the Global Intelligence community that NZ had caught a major Islamic terrorist and we then put a secret agent in Zaoui’s cell to ask him (get this folks) did he know where Osama Bin Laden lived…….

….fuck NZers are dumb. In the most embarrassing climb down, our secret intelligence service had to put out a new press release admitting they got it wrong.

So Zaoui and his family escape a brutal coup, sponsored by the French because of French Oil interests, has his name slandered in European Courts all based on secret evidence supplied by the French, lands in NZ because he once read (ironically) a press statement by Helen Clark that she sympathized with the Algerian people during the brutal French supported military coup against Zaoui’s party, and he selected NZ as a safe haven. We respond by locking him up in Solitary for 10 months (an unheard of amount of time which equates to torture), refuse to let his family join us and gets told to ‘Fly home’

There are times when my fellow NZers are just a bunch of ignorant hick fools, we should be DEEPLY ashamed of the way we have treated Zaoui.

Psst, Mr Zaoui - where's Osama hiding? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartimes/3965892a6005.html)
Police put an undercover agent in a cell with Algerian refugee Ahmed Zaoui and asked him "Where is Osama bin Laden?", a just-released Police Complaints Authority decision reveals.
Zaoui's lawyer Deborah Manning has ridiculed the "Keystone Cops" police actions after his arrival in December 2002. But, she said, their belief that they had caught a "big fish" had serious and lasting consequences for Zaoui - the worst that he was held in solitary confinement for 10 months on the basis of a police threat assessment.
The PCA investigation - which took three years - was prompted by complaints in January 2004 by former MP Matt Robson. The authority, Judge Ian Borrin, upheld a number of them and referred his findings to the police commissioner. The PCA report said the undercover agent was put in a day room with Zaoui at the Papakura police station on three occasions soon after he arrived in New Zealand seeking asylum.
After a Customs officer had misunderstood his reply to a question, they wrongly believed he was a member of Algerian terrorist organisation GIA. The agent was to "gather intelligence" with questions such as "Do you like Bin Laden?" and "Where is Osama bin Laden?" While unorthodox, it did not appear to breach Zaoui's rights. Zaoui had provided no information of note, Borrin wrote. Manning said Zaoui realised the man was an undercover agent. "He was only let out of his cell into the day room a few times and this guy was always there asking bizarre questions." Zaoui told the Star-Times he thought the man's activities were strange. When asked where Bin Laden was, he had replied "in Afghanistan". The agent could speak only English - which Zaoui could barely understand - so communicated some questions with charades. The PCA criticised the police threat assessment of Zaoui as "not well considered nor well constructed and it should not have been presented to Corrections in the form that it was." It "assumed much greater significance than was appropriate".
Manning said the police refused to budge on their incorrect assessment of Zaoui. Matt Robson said the decision made it clear there had been important breaches of Zaoui's rights. Police had relied on "dodgy sources" and exceeded their authority. Zaoui, now in the care of Dominican friars, still awaits the review of the government's security risk certificate which can see him deported."

[Guitana]

What is he still here???

I'm going to run for parliament and become the new minister for immigration!!!
Any whingers and moaners that don't want to accept our culture and are trying to change the way we live to suit there own selfish needs!
The new policy will be simple if you don't like it fuck off!! here's a plane ticket see ya later!!
The way I see it is that we need to sort out the indifference between Maori and Pakeha first and build a stable relationship between the two uniting to become one country!
I know alot of people on this forum don't agree with maori issues and that's fine but we need to realise that there was alot of dodgy dealings done in the old days and yes beleive it or not alot of tribes in NZ were fucked over!!!!
The original treaty was written in english and when transcribed into maori the interpretations were different!! Most of the Cheifs that signed that treaty had no idea of the conditions that would be imposed on them and when they were goaded into skirmishes with colonial troops their land was confiscated.
This was done intentionally to take their land under the treaty!
And you wonder why the Maori are upset!! I would be fucked off too!!!

[Dave Lobster]

I'll stick this on here as a wrap up...no one will read it but....I agree with Bomber by the way.

"The ignorance of NZers

[FONT=&quot]
I asked some wee blogger on this site who Mr Zaoui was and all they were able to give me was a list of charges from European Courts which sums up the totality of ignorance NZers seem to have on who Zaoui is and what he represents.

So let’s talk about Zaoui – he was a democratically elected member of an Islamic party in Algeria up against a repressive Government, backed to the hilt by the French who had massive oil and gas interests in Algeria. Zaoui’s party intended to take those oil and gas revenues and spend them on the people of Algeria, this of course was intolerable to the French who the minute Zaoui's party won, backed the military in a coup to throw out the democratically elected government of Zaoui and started a massacre on Zaoui's supporters. Zaoui fled and on the bequest of the French found himself being charged using secret evidence in absentee, all in part to discredit Zaoui’s party and hide the French backed brutality. Of course all ignorant knee jerk red necked NZers know is the French side of the story, France of course tested nuclear weapons in our back yard for decades and lied about the radioactivity leaking into the pacific and are of course the only nation to have attacked our country with a terrorist bombing of the rainbow warrior in Auckland, all this after NZers spilled blood in two world wars defending French soil. So why the fuck dumb, red necked NZers would NOW choose to believe anything the fucking French have to say is well beyond me.


So... with this as his background, what is he going to do for a living in NZ, if he gets to stay? I can't think of a company that would take him on.. not on enough money to feed/clothe/house his family. Who is going to pay for it all?

[mstriumph]

...................................this of course was intolerable to the French who the minute Zaoui's party won, backed the military in a coup to throw out the democratically elected government of Zaoui and started a massacre on Zaoui's supporters. Zaoui fled and on the bequest of the French found himself being charged using secret evidence in absentee, all in part to discredit Zaoui’s party and hide the French backed brutality. Of course all ignorant knee jerk red necked NZers know is the French side of the story, France of course tested nuclear weapons in our back yard for decades and lied about the radioactivity leaking into the pacific and are of course the only nation to have attacked our country with a terrorist bombing of the rainbow warrior in Auckland, all this after NZers spilled blood in two world wars defending French soil. So why the fuck dumb, red necked NZers would NOW choose to believe anything the fucking French have to say is well beyond me................................[/I][/FONT]

.................... ahhhhhh the FRENCH. up to their peverse, arrogant, self-interested shenannigans again -
- should have KNOWN it .........

why don't they just stick to making champagne ...... and windows ....... and tarts and stuff?

[MisterD]

I now realise my mistake, he was democratically elected therefore he must be ok.
Hamas in Palestine - democratically elected, still terrorists
Gerry Adams & Martin McGuinness in Northern Ireland - democratically elected, still terrorists.

[mstriumph]

yes, but the FRENCH don't like him ........ that's GOTTA mean he's basically OK? :shutup:

[MisterD]

Ha ha! There's no such thing as "The French"...it's about seven different countries that place, all of them (except for Paris) utterly fantastic.

[mstriumph]

two answers
if you are talking about the country then right - its all good

if you are talking about the people
i disagree
if 'muslim' and 'biker' can be collective terms then so can 'french' :oi-grr:


------------------ and the only one of their hypothetical seven divisions that may [may] be even marginally 'ok' is mebbe the normandie coast lot [and then only 'cause i'm related to them waaaay back]

OR HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE RAINBOW WARRIOR??? :no: for SHAME!!

[Wolf]

Ha ha! There's no such thing as "The French"...it's about seven different countries that place
And to date none of them have produced someone capable of smiling



or even faking politeness...

[Dave Lobster]

And to date none of them have produced someone capable of smiling



or even faking politeness...

Or winning a war.

[Dave Lobster]

Gerry Adams & Martin McGuinness in Northern Ireland - democratically elected, still terrorists.

And a shining example to terrorists the world over. Bomb for long enough, and the stupid sh1ts will give in.

And a pair of c*nts to boot, Adams and McGuiness.