Losing the fight

[kro]

A few weeks ago, I came home to a full house, my brother was over, one of my daughters had a friend over, and her mum was also there, picking her up. My son got too hyped up, and said something out of line, and my brother turned round, and with raised voice, said "Michael !!, go to your room, that was naughty !!!".

The lady collecting her daughter, looked at me, and then at my wife, and was quite obvioiusly uncomfortable. My brother marched off to my sons bedroom, and proceeded to dish out a verbal reprimand, and the woman became highly agitated, and my wife picked up on it, and said "whats wrong?".

The women said to us that she thought for a moment that Michael was my brothers son, and that we had some wierd family background blah blah. I said to her, that my wife and I had given full permission to my brother and his partner to discipline our children, but she just could not make it work in her head.

Here's the deal, my son says something very naughty, and my wife and I miss it, but my brother hears it, and it's offensive to him, so he makes it known to my son that it was unacceptable, and sends him to time out.
Back when my parents were growing up, and even up until I was growing up, the whole family, and friends made it vocally clear to the youngins what was acceptable, and what wasn't. Back then, everyone knew what was ok, and what was bad, and it kept people honest, and kept a consistency of behaviour across the community.

People these days are too scared to tell someone elses kids that their behaviour is shit. My son is friends with an extremely prominent Nelson family, and I have told their son off on two separate occasions, and now, the child knows what is acceptable in my house at least, and is well behaved around me. His mum can't for the life of her figure out why he behaves so well for me. The fact is, they are softcocks, and barely discipline the kid, and I doubt any of their friends bother to do it either.

If kids know that more than one set of rules exist, they will play each set to it's fullest extent, but if they know that certain behaviours are unacceptable across the board, they will behave consistently.

My parents are hopeless unfortunately, and won't do it, and they wonder why my children play them. Duh

What do you think?.

[The_Dover]

i think kids should live in fear.

keep the little fuckers on their toes.

[Hitcher]

There need to be consistently applied boundaries to successfully modify behaviours.

[Steam]

Yes, what you and your brother have arranged is good, that's good parenting.

We need more of your attitude in the world, if EVERYONE took responsibility for disciplining kids and parenting, then a useless parent's influence may be mitigated somewhat. I mean, if some kid is doing something bad in the playground, then others should feel obliged to step in and stop that kid spitting at another, or whatever.

Like you say: ...everyone knew what was ok, and what was bad, and it kept people honest, and kept a consistency of behaviour across the community.

That's a key to solid community, people telling others what they are doing is unacceptable, whether child or adult. If everyone kept going up to street-kids telling them to go away and stop bothering people, sooner or later they'd get tired of being bugged and bugger off. (they couldn't fight everyone!) But this would require a huge societal shift, but hey, look how much kiwiland has changed in 50 years, maybe in 50 more we will have changed for the better?
It's just words, but words have power when repeated again and again by everyone you meet or see as family or parenting figures.
Good on ya!

[chanceyy]

its great well done !!!!!!

I do not have kids (apart from the 4 legged variety) but my bro has 4 kids .. when i visit them or they come to visit my parents who are elderly & they try it on .. I growl them (cause nana & grandad let them get away with murder ... ) those kids are extremely respectful & know their boundaries, very loving kids wonderful to be around


same for freinds kids .. pulled into freinds driveway off a state highway here was the 7 yr old sitting in middle of driveway (blind spot) thankfully I was not going fast either but boy ohh boy dunna think she will ever sit there again .. I have no hesitation in telling kids off but then the parents do not object either

Aunty sandra darling becomes aunty sandra demon .. still makes me smile ..

[Highlander]

There need to be consistently applied boundaries to successfully modify behaviours.

Those boundaries should be applied by the adult figure present, need not be the parent so long as it is consistent.

[mstriumph]

I grew up in a small village on salisbury plain ........... the nearest adult admonished bad behaviour ........... we learnt to keep our mischiefs couvert at at VERY young age lol

[sunhuntin]

i dont recall being discplined by my friends parents, but i knew damn sure what was ok, and what wasnt.

you guys are doing great so far! great way to be consistent!

my brother is 26, and has just moved back home, with a year old baby. mum and i collect bears...they are literally all over the house. we tell her she cant touch them, and tell her no when she tries. ive even tapped her hand with two fingers to get her away from the ceramic ones. but then, he turns around and gives them to her anyway. i hate that, cos he is living in mums house, and not respecting her property.
but, both my parents are also softcocks.... if it were me, hed be out on his ass, not being babied.

[Drum]

Kids should be taught to respect all adults, not just their parents.

If this were the case, we wouldn't have tagging would we?

[kro]

It's reassuring to get feedback like this, thank you for your comments, even yours Dover, as there is actually an element of truth in it.

So good to hear some of you have similar ways of doing things, I was starting to think I was breaking some moral code that no bastard told me about when we had children.

[scumdog]

Good on ya!

I kick-arse (verbally) any kid that steps out of line in my earshot - regardless of who the parents are.

[Clivoris]

Same way I was raised and how my kids get raised. Keep it up man.

[apteryx_haasti]

Yeah - good system! I am the same with my sister's kids - I know what they are allowed to do / say and my sister and her husband are quite happy for Auntie to dish out a telling off if it's necessary.

Someone before said that what you do is good parenting. I agree!

[terbang]

Yup tha was the way it was when I was a kid. The uncles and Aunts also meted out punishment when they caught us playing up. They were family and it was just normal. My brother has now married a woman that has had a different upbringing and if we even frown in her kids direction we are damned. And now the little bastards run wild telling us and her to piss off as they please and have absolutley no respect for anyone. We don't see too much of them nowdays.

[SlashWylde]

I think you and your extended family have it well worked out. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Timber020]

I was brought up in a farming area, if I stepped out of line my ass could be handed to me by any adult my family knew. Worked well.

I reprimand kids I see, even infront of the soft mothers, boy have I suprised a few!

[heyjoe]

hey kro,

Sounds like a good system. I grew up in a family environment that worked similar. We didn't get away with much.
It is society that has changed over the years. Some of todays parents have developed an approach that is creating kids who seem to have no concept of self discipline or respect. I suspect that it will make life more difficult for them later on.

[kro]

My brother has now married a woman that has had a different upbringing and if we even frown in her kids direction we are damned. And now the little bastards run wild telling us and her to piss off as they please and have absolutley no respect for anyone. We don't see too much of them nowdays.

An all too familiar story terbang, what you see happening to your brothers children is so typical nowadays, and with the PC army slowly invading NZ, soon it will be illegal to raise your voice to a child, let alone attempt any form of discipline, as this will "traumatise" the child, and stunt their growth.

Hand in hand with this are parents who deny their children nothing. Of all the forms of abuse, I have seen this one to be the biggest cultivator of horrible children. My son knows 2 such children, at even at age 6, he is slowly distancing himself from these kids, because he see's them getting into trouble in a daily basis, and doesn't want to be tarred with the same brush.

You cultures with heavy emphasis on extended families, like India, or China, and you see just how well it works when all the family back up the parents. I have yet to work with someone from either of these countries, who isn't exceedingly polite, unbelievably helpful, and modestly succesful. The culture breeds it, and NZ is losing it's culture faster I think, than the Maori, we just don't see it, because we have forgotten, or don't care anymore.

[Dilligaf]

Hey as long as you are all cool with it... But maybe she has experiences like me...
If we are with the out-laws... and my daughter steps out of line even WHEN I am in the middle of saying / doing something to reprimand, two other adult voices (MIL and SIL) HAVE TO FRICKEN CHIME IN WITH THEIR BLOODY TWO CENTS WORTH!!! She's 4 years old FGS, she does not need three adults telling her off :angry:
one thing that is guaranteed to have me chomping on the old tongue :2guns:
I have generally taken the line that if the parents are there, then it is up to them to discipline otherwise I will do / say something (especially if they are guests in my house).
And yes, we have stopped socialising with some families because of the different standards of behaviour that are expected from their kids.

[ManDownUnder]

I think it's brilliant what your brother did. My brother and sister would be well within rights to do the same.

Kids are part of society as a whole, and society as a whole has a responsibility to bring them up. Mum and Dad are the primary caregivers sure - but they are not the sole caregivers.

[pritch]

I was on an open climb of the local mountain when during a rest break on the scree a kid started throwing rocks dowhill. This is a stated no no and besides we couldn't see if anyone was below us. I told the kid he shouldn't do that as it was dangerous. His father turned and told me if anybody was to tell his son what to do it was him.

I didn't reply but he had ample time to say something to the boy but hadn't. If anyone abdicates his responsibility as a parent, especially in a safety situation, I'll feel free to admonish the kid.
And his useless bloody parent if necessary...

[Biff]

Sounds like a good bit of team work you've got going on there. Congrats.

Although I'm the kinda guy that would generally growl and pull up pretty much any young un in my charge for a firm, quiet, growly, word. And I often throw in a menacing glare for effect.

:angry: <<<< Like this, but not in yellow.

[scumdog]

I think it's brilliant what your brother did. My brother and sister would be well within rights to do the same.

Kids are part of society as a whole, and society as a whole has a responsibility to bring them up. Mum and Dad are the primary caregivers sure - but they are not the sole caregivers.

True - if a parent screws up and their kid turns out an arsehole it's not just the parent that suffers.
The rest of society does.

[vifferman]

So good to hear some of you have similar ways of doing things, I was starting to think I was breaking some moral code that no bastard told me about when we had children.
They're your kids: if you love them and are doing what you think is best for them, then who cares what anyone else thinks.

Keep up the good work.

[yungatart]

Its a great way to bring up kids. I believe that raising kids is a community effort and not just the responsibility of the parents.Too many parents are isolated from extended families, the rest of us need to step in and support/help where we can.
After all, when they grow up, they have to fit in to a community, don't they?

[sels1]

Good stuff kro, and everyone else. Good to know there are still others out there trying to bring up kids in a decent way

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Good stuff guys, maybe there is hope for society after all !:yes:

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

Good parenting skills Kro! My parents' rules were not matter what adult was looking after me they were allowed to discipline. Even when they were around - crikey we had enough aunts and uncles that weren't shy in coming forward. We were taught to respect adults.

I use to look after 2 children every 2nd weekend - my sister had witnessed their atrocious behaviour when one on one with their father and said how do you cope with them. Simple. I sat down with them and explained that while they were in my home - these are the rules/boundaries. Sure they tested me but I was consistent. They were horrified I never had a tv but about 3 weekends in the greatest compliment they paid me - was we don't miss tv shirl cos we have much more fun playing with you and dad. Even when their dad & I split - they wanted to live with me. Boundaries make for happier children and me being a big kid at heart we had such fun times.

I enjoy being around families where the parents have control of their kids, and there is respect all round.

[Joni]

My parents' rules were not matter what adult was looking after me they were allowed to discipline.I reckon this situation like most is open to different guidelines depending on who you talk to.

We all know I am not a Kiwi, where I come from, my Mother for example would take offence if someone diciplined her children, its basically not their place... if you have an issue with her children you take it up with her. She was huge on consistency and not sending mixed messages... Now belieive me, Im not saying her approach was ideal.... but it shows you BMW how things can be different from one person to another.

Kro, i reckon you know what is right for you and your children at a base level... with all the great answers in this thread, the answer would become fairly clear.

[avgas]

Retaliation is a failing, a good parent informs the child before the mistake is made.
Ever told a dog it is bad 5mins after it pisses on the carpet - with no explanation.
If you don't teach them the error, then you are responsible for them repeating it.
Look him directly in the eyes, tell him what is wrong with what he has done and do not loose eye contact. If he is searching for attention - give him an excess so he never wants that situation again.
How would you react if your mechanic yelled at you "Your bike is fucked cos you fucked it!" with no reasoning.

[ManDownUnder]

... if you have an issue with her children you take it up with her. She was huge on consistency


Different stroke for different folks but I believe you hit it on the head - albeit in a different way. The expectation is to take it up with her (i.e. not let it slide).

That's where NZ is getting it wrong IMHO. Too many just let it slide... in fact there seems to be a growing expectation that "I'm not allowed to do anything" even when the little bastards are smashing and burning.

[Joni]

Yup 100% MDU.. not saying let it slide... the parent would decide what the decipline would be...

[imdying]

My parents' rules were no matter what adult was looking after me they were allowed to discipline.


my Mother for example would take offence if someone diciplined her children, its basically not their place... It is if she asks them to look after them.

[Toaster]

A few good smacks and a healthy respect for adults served me well. Kids seem to be given way too much in every respect except discipline. It is no wonder so many seem to lord it over their parents. Whatever happended to doing as you are told, respecting authority and contributing to the family by helping out?

[kro]

Retaliation is a failing, a good parent informs the child before the mistake is made.
So damn true, but sometimes we miss some things, and new "mistakes" can creep up at any moment, so it's hard to cover the field. But I see what you're saying.



Look him directly in the eyes, tell him what is wrong with what he has done and do not loose eye contact.
Eye contact is mandatory in our household. It seems to bring the truth out very well.



How would you react if your mechanic yelled at you "Your bike is fucked cos you fucked it!" with no reasoning.
I would look sheepish, and admit he was right, coz I suck at the bike fixing game !!.

[Guitana]

Yeah my old man was right into that rural justice for naughty kids!!! Mind you my brother and I nearly gave him a brain hemorrage when we crashed the tractor through the hay shed wall and ditched the landcruiser in the river!!
No wonder he died at the age of 53.
I can still hear his last words before he died: NO DON'T SON THAT GUN IS LOADED!!!!!!!

[NordieBoy]

How would you react if your mechanic yelled at you "Your bike is fucked cos you fucked it!" with no reasoning.

You've met my brother Shane?

Spooky :shit:

[ManDownUnder]

Retaliation is a failing, a good parent informs the child before the mistake is made.

Yeah - I see where you're going with that and you're not wrong - I'd add to it however. It's impossible to anticipate the sheer variety of things kids are capable of. Throwing stones down the scree was an example given earlier and it'd be great fun to do - and apparently harmless to a young mind. So - first time it happens, tell them it's wrong, and explain why. Don't bust their balls - it's a the perfect way to raise the stakes, get everyone offside and turn it into an argument.

Highlight what they did wrong - and why it's wrong. Kids are usually keen to learn, and what they retain never fails to amase me.

The second time - refer back to the first incident. Have them recall why it was wrong. They get to demonstrate they were either not listening, didn't understand, they forgot, they didn't take it seriously, or they're being naughty.

Up the stakes after that - depending on how heinous the crime is. Life and death stuff is serious from the first warning... picking their nose or farting in public is reason for a quiet word with them.

The initial reaction also helps the child understand the gravity of the situation. If you go off your nut at everything, how can they tell which things they MUST DO (not playing on a busy road), and which things they need to think about before doing (farting in the lounge). Watch out for that stuff you do that's wrong... and pull them up for too (farting in the lounge being a classic example). If there is any hypocrasy or ambiguity it WILL confuse the child. So be honest - put it in context for them and explain why sometimes it's funny, and sometimes it's not. Some guests may even join in (but I digress)

It's no biggy - just work with them, not against them and we'll all be fine. Kids need boundaries though, and if I need to provide them - I will. If I step on someone's toes in the process (i.e. Joni's mum to use an example given) then I'd apologise, explain I didn't understand her rules and explain to her what I was doing - and why.

[Joni]

If I step on someone's toes in the process (i.e. Joni's mum to use an example given) then I'd apologise, explain I didn't understand her rules and explain to her what I was doing - and why.Then stand up after she floors you and gives you a black eye.:D

My little 4ft9" Maaaa is a fiesty one :love:

On a serious note I get what you are saying MDU, your post makes sence...:yes:

[ManDownUnder]

My little 4ft9" Maaaa is a fiesty one :love:

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Genetic is it? I can't imagine you just being pushed around either.

[avgas]

You've met my brother Shane?
Spooky :shit:
Mabey, does he ride a guzzi? or a bmw? :)

[avgas]

It's no biggy - just work with them, not against them and we'll all be fine. Kids need boundaries though, and if I need to provide them - I will. If I step on someone's toes in the process (i.e. Joni's mum to use an example given) then I'd apologize, explain I didn't understand her rules and explain to her what I was doing - and why.

Completely agree - The only reason why i brought it up is kids respect role models, even they piss you off, you always respect your role models cos they told you what was wrong.

Kro you sound like you have it sorted. But how come your brother cant tell you of what your child has said - and you ask your child (eye contact) of what they did wrong.
I would hate for your kids to hate your brother cos he yells all the time.

Also i agree with the spanking thing (much to my sisters disgust), but only as a last resort. A good parent hurts more than the child in a spanking.

[Macktheknife]

Kro
What a great thing it is to hear of good parenting models still in use! Seriously, I have learnt that most of the parents I see lately have not got the nouse to see what is to me (and obviously you) good parenting and use the tried and true methods. Violence unnecessary, but a smack can be very memorable! A good telling off is a wonderful tool when used well, and as MDU says, kids need boundaries, so do the rest of us actually.
Continuity is essential, shared responsibility is fantastic, and clear communication is paramount.
It really makes me glad to hear this kind of strong loving parenting is still alive and kicking.
Thankyou

[NordieBoy]

Mabey, does he ride a guzzi? or a bmw? :)

Nope.
He's a bike mechanic in Nelson who would tell you if he thought you'd fcuked it :shit: