Bikes don't make the dangerous list?

[pete376403]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3962966a11.html.

Quote: "by far the most dangerous adventure sports were found to be horse riding, mountainbiking, tramping and surfing."
None of which pay ANY ACC levy.

So why do we pay such high ACC premiums? (easy answer -to pay for the horsey set, etc)

[Cibby]

probably because we pay registeration therefore the govt has a valid way of charging us, it woudl be impossible to acc levy mountain bikers or surfers etc..

it is ridiculious thou, sports dont pay any acc as far as i'm aware, and yet the acc claims from sports are huge..

perhaps we should petition to make motorcycling a Sport instead of a vehicle or mode of transport... :)

[Swoop]

"I've sprained my back lifting the gin and tonic!!!" Oooh, off to ACC!!!


WTF.
Scenic flights????

[idleidolidyll]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3962966a11.html.

Quote: "by far the most dangerous adventure sports were found to be horse riding, mountainbiking, tramping and surfing."
None of which pay ANY ACC levy.

So why do we pay such high ACC premiums? (easy answer -to pay for the horsey set, etc)

I figure the ACC levy I paid through my road taxes and business are well and truly covered by the spinal op and rehab after breaking my back mountainbiking. Without our no fault system or under the US 'system', I'd probably still be paralyzed or at the very least, heavily in debt.
My op would have cost about $50k+ in the US and given the huge rates for health insurance there, I wouldn't have had comprehensive cover.

The gov't has to collect it somehow. My only real beef is that we are charged mopre than tin tops

[Finn]

My op would have cost about $50k+ in the US and given the huge rates for health insurance there, I wouldn't have had comprehensive cover.

Yeah but if your business was in the US, you'd probably be doing so much better and therefore could afford health insurance. Also, your mountain bike would be 1/3 the price.

[idleidolidyll]

Yeah but if your business was in the US, you'd probably be doing so much better and therefore could afford health insurance. Also, your mountain bike would be 1/3 the price.

that'd be why 40 million yanks have no health insurance at all and fuck all have full cover i guess..........yes, sarcasm

no, my bike would probably cost MORE, it'd be sold in yank$

ie; equivalent to my current mtb is a lightspeed or merlin titanium frame, latest XTR disc brakes, lightest hand built wheels etc etc.
Oh yeah, a singlespeed with a titanium ridgid fork.......see photo attached

in the USA it would cost almost double what I paid for it...............but then I AM the importer I guess
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Mike/Desktop/Bad%20News.jpg

[Finn]

that'd be why 40 million yanks have no health insurance at all and fuck all have full cover i guess..........yes, sarcasm

no, my bike would probably cost MORE, it'd be sold in yank$

ie; equivalent to my current mtb is a lightspeed or merlin titanium frame, latest XTR disc brakes, lightest hand built wheels etc etc.
Oh yeah, a singlespeed with a titanium ridgid fork.......see photo attached

in the USA it would cost almost double what I paid for it...............but then I AM the importer I guess
file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Mike/Desktop/Bad%20News.jpg

Okay, cool. I know where to get my next bike from.

40 million Americans out of 280 million is very good actually.

[idleidolidyll]

" 40 million Americans out of 280 million is very good actually"

versus NZ where virtually nobody is left out because of ACC?

actually it's a shocking stat and even worse when you consider that it's in the richest country on the planet................and that's not even counting the tens of millions more who have only partial cover.

i know where i'd rather have an accident and it aint in the frozen north

[idleidolidyll]

"Okay, cool. I know where to get my next bike from."

Sure, I might even be persuaded to give KR folk a discount on my all titanium mountainbikes. BTW: I sell std style triangle frames as well as the 'newsboy' style.
Also do std 21/27 speed gears (gears are gay, gears for queers, gears for girlz ;-)) and a nice shimano 8 speed hub they've recently released. Hell, I'll even build em with hyd/air suspension on front!

The weight difference between a std triangle frame and the curvy newsboy is about 200 gram

All up weight for a singlespeed mountainbike to top specs is about 8.3kg.

Demo's available, call Mike 021 621507

[Squeak the Rat]

Riding on the road is not a sport, and we should not encourage the government to treat it as such!

[idleidolidyll]

Riding on the road is not a sport, and we should not encourage the government to treat it as such!

how do they treat it as a sport?

ACC levies are not just for sports, they are for all kinds of accidental injury

please elucudate

BTW: the way i ride and why i ride make it a sport, i don't ride as 'transport', i do it for fun, for the pure thrill of riding

[Cajun]

wonder how long before auntie helen bans/taxs some of those 'sports'

[Edbear]

Riding on the road is not a sport, and we should not encourage the government to treat it as such!



These days it seems a lot like "Bullrush!":yes:

[Finn]

versus NZ where virtually nobody is left out because of ACC?

ACC is not free and is therefore insurance but paid by the employer, which supports my thread discussing why everything is overpriced in NZ.

Also, should you require critical or emergency services, NZ's third world hospitals wouldn't come close to the US, assuming you had health insurance and weren't left out in the corridor to die.

What I am saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too. Personally, the user pay system works well for me. Let me decide what services I want covered and let the fat lazy people die in the gutter.

[The_Dover]

let the fat lazy people die in the gutter.

only the bike made it that far.

I was still on my arse on the road.

[idleidolidyll]

ACC is not free and is therefore insurance but paid by the employer, which supports my thread discussing why everything is overpriced in NZ.

Also, should you require critical or emergency services, NZ's third world hospitals wouldn't come close to the US, assuming you had health insurance and weren't left out in the corridor to die.

What I am saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too. Personally, the user pay system works well for me. Let me decide what services I want covered and let the fat lazy people die in the gutter.


actually NZ's medical services trounced those of the US in a recent international survey. The only thing the US beat NZ in was having the latest technology.
However, that technology just wasn't available to most people, only to heavily insured people.
NZ beat the US hands down on access to healthcare and the cost of our health system was one of the lowest in the developed world.

BTW: ACC is not only paid by the employer, it is obviously collected from other sources too, ie; registration.

Companies can also opt out of the ACC system by providing their own ACC services (if that service meets regs). They are then responsible for their own claims, payments, assessments etc.

Quite often though, this system had led to abuse by employers who refuse to recognise OOS etc.

any real comparison between the costs and benefits of NZ's health system vs that of the USA will show that Kiwis are far better off on average. Only the very very wealthy get better care in the USA.

But hey, don't take my word, do some research, I have

[idleidolidyll]

ACC is not free and is therefore insurance but paid by the employer, which supports my thread discussing why everything is overpriced in NZ.

Also, should you require critical or emergency services, NZ's third world hospitals wouldn't come close to the US, assuming you had health insurance and weren't left out in the corridor to die.

What I am saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too. Personally, the user pay system works well for me. Let me decide what services I want covered and let the fat lazy people die in the gutter.


actually NZ's medical services trounced those of the US in a recent international survey (2006). The only thing the US beat NZ in was having the latest technology.
However, that technology just wasn't available to most people, only to heavily insured people.
NZ beat the US hands down on access to healthcare and the cost of our health system was one of the lowest in the developed world.

BTW: ACC is not only paid by the employer, it is obviously collected from other sources too, ie; registration.

Companies can also opt out of the ACC system by providing their own ACC services (if that service meets regs). They are then responsible for their own claims, payments, assessments etc.

Quite often though, this system had led to abuse by employers who refuse to recognise OOS etc.

any real comparison between the costs and benefits of NZ's health system vs that of the USA will show that Kiwis are far better off on average. Only the very very wealthy get better care in the USA.

Waiting times in the US are also longer than in NZ for most people. It is silly to compare NZ's service with the very best exclusive services in tyhe US, to compare rationally one must compare overall access and cost etc. NZ wins hands down, only Britains service had better access for instance but they failed on many other standards measured.

But hey, don't take my word, do some research, I have

[Finn]

actually NZ's medical services trounced those of the US in a recent international survey (2006).

Can you provide a link to this survey?

[idleidolidyll]

Can you provide a link to this survey?

I'll see if I can find it and will post here within a quote to you so you receive notification.

I post often on a political discussion website and the topic was raised regarding Canada, NZ, UK, Australia and the USA's health services.

Right at the time the survey/research came out and validated my arguments.

[idleidolidyll]

Can you provide a link to this survey?

Here's an article on the survey (NZ came out best by a long way)

Tuesday, April 04, 2006
By Todd Zwillich

U.S. patients rate their health care among the worst in the industrialized world, despite spending more on medical care than patients in other countries, a multinational report concluded Tuesday.
Americans were more likely than patients in four other rich countries to report poor care coordination, lab test and diagnostic errors, and high costs that stand in the way of obtaining needed care. The report also shows that low-income Americans have far more difficulty with most areas of their medical care than similar patients in other nations.
The report is not the first to expose glaring shortcomings in the U.S health system when compared to other countries.
Low Rankings
The U.S. ranks 33rd in infant mortality and 28th in disease-free life expectancy, according to the World Health Organization. Meanwhile, the U.S. spent $6,280 per capita on medical care in 2004, more than twice as much as any other industrialized nation.
In the survey, Americans were more likely than residents of the U.K., Australia, New Zealand, or Canada to report having spent $1,000 or more of their own money for medical care in the last year. Lower-income Americans were also far more likely than lower-income patients of those nations to say they’ve gone without a needed medical test or treatment because of cost.

“Higher spending doesn’t mean we receive more or better care. We simply pay more,” said Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit group that issued the report.
Poor Coordination of Health Care
The report notes that the U.S. does a particularly poor job of organizing care for patients with chronic diseases, though such patients use close to 80 percent of all health care dollars.
Nearly one-quarter of U.S patients told researchers they had received incorrect lab results vs. 9 percent to 18 percent of patients from the other countries. American patients were in some cases twice as likely to report that their medical records did not make it to a doctor’s office in time for an appointment.
The U.S system did show a few bright spots. American patients were equally or more likely to receive preventive medical services like blood pressure screening or Pap smear tests for cervical cancer.
But experts said the overall health picture for Americans is marked by inefficiency, duplication, and a lack of coordination that often leaves patients to navigate the system with little guidance from a doctor or other expert.
Primary Care Shortcomings
Andrew Bindman, MD, chief of the internal medicine division at San Francisco General Hospital, says fewer and fewer young doctors are choosing to train in primary care, a dynamic that tilts the U.S. system toward more expensive specialty care.
“We’re seeing an erosion in the primary care infrastructure,” Bindman says.
Donald M. Berwick, MD, president of the Institute for Healthcare Improvement, says the nation is making some strides toward improving efficiency. The Bush administration has spearheaded efforts to increase the use of electronic medical records and to tie health payments to quality of care.
But the U.S. system still relies too heavily on new technologies and hi-tech tests that sometimes drive up the cost of care without improving overall health, he says.
“We have a big job here, to wean ourselves from the ‘more is better’ philosophy,” Berwick says.

By Todd Zwillich (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135749,00.html#Zwillich), reviewed by Louise Chang, MD
SOURCES: Commonwealth Fund 2004 International Health Policy Survey, April 4, 2006. Karen Davis, president, the Commonwealth Fund. World Health Organization. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Andrew Bindman, MD, chief, department of general internal medicine, San Francisco General Hospital, University of California at San Francisco. Donald M. Berwick, MD, president, Institute for Healthcare Improvement.

[Ixion]

Motorcycling is not a sport or pastime, it's transport. With benefits.

Actually NZ hospital services (tertiary health services) are some of the best in the world, our problem there is that we can't afford enough of them. But what there is is top class.

Our secondary health systems (GPs etc ) are mediocre at best

Our primary health systems are near enough non existent.

[The_Dover]

I post often on a political discussion website.

your all personality huh?

[idleidolidyll]

your all personality huh?

i enjoy nothing more than winding up neoclown yanks and rednecks wherever they are

[Timber020]

The US hospital system is the pits, it like walking into a mexican bank. 3 tellers, a half dozen forms to fill out and up to 24 hours (yes 24 HOURS) of waiting unless your really urgent.

Insurance for me was going to be $600 a month. They do this cool collection of tests to see how healthy you are, now apparently something like a third of people have a heart murmur or get diagnosed with one for these tests, and 2.5% of those might have a certain heart problem, and 10% of them may have a problem that actually needs something done at some time. But to get insurance, if you have a heart murmur you have to have a echo which costs $1000 just in case you the .25% pf the population with that problem.
Just applying for insurance can cost thousands.

A mate broke his arm in New Jersey, we went to a local A&E at 9am and he got it seen at about 12 and then had to have "tests" done. Had to give blood and have a few different scans. Then the cast. By 4pm it was fixed and he had a bill for $8,000. Sweet!

Finnja, your welcome to that system, PS they rip you off really bad if your rich to.

[The_Dover]

i enjoy nothing more than winding up neoclown yanks and rednecks wherever they are

now that, I like.

have a brown star.:rockon:

[doc]

ie; equivalent to my current mtb is a lightspeed or merlin titanium frame, latest XTR disc brakes, lightest hand built wheels etc etc.
Oh yeah, a singlespeed with a titanium ridgid fork.......in the USA it would cost almost double what I paid for it...............file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Mike/Desktop/Bad%20News.jpg
Sounds sort as as exclusive as Finns MV

[idleidolidyll]

Sounds sort as as exclusive as Finns MV

ha! ha! but nowhere near the cost!
A Lightspeed with gears and susp forks will set you back abt $7.5k, a Merlin abt 10k, mine to similar spec abt 6k

that's only a middling expensive bike really.

[Coyote]

perhaps we should petition to make motorcycling a Sport instead of a vehicle or mode of transport... :)
A race bike that isn't rego'd doesn't have an acc levy on it

If they rego'd push bikes, which once they realise they could make money from it I'm sure they will, there will be a levy

[Lias]

probably because we pay registeration therefore the govt has a valid way of charging us, it woudl be impossible to acc levy mountain bikers or surfers etc..

it is ridiculious thou, sports dont pay any acc as far as i'm aware, and yet the acc claims from sports are huge..

perhaps we should petition to make motorcycling a Sport instead of a vehicle or mode of transport... :)

Take the expected lifetime of a surfboard / mountain bike (what 10-20 years?), multiply that by an annual fee, and and that as a tax to every bike/board sold in the shops.

If nothign else it would cut down on the surfies and cyclists :-)

[avgas]

Take the expected lifetime of a surfboard / mountain bike (what 10-20 years?), multiply that by an annual fee, and and that as a tax to every bike/board sold in the shops.

If nothign else it would cut down on the surfies and cyclists :-)

Fact of the mater is a mountain bike of any decent quality, is still fecking expensive - and i dont see bike shop owners rolling in it.
I was cheaper to by my misses a brand new moped than it was for me to buy myself a newish mountainbike (misses could have mine)

[Insanity_rules]

probably because we pay registeration therefore the govt has a valid way of charging us, it woudl be impossible to acc levy mountain bikers or surfers etc..

Make the bastards slap a licence plate on their horses, mountain bikes and ruddy surf boards. That'll fix em.

[gamgee]

I don't beleive when they say surfing they refer to it as what your all thinking, a lot of the 'surfing' claims are probably injuries occuring between the flags where people are running into each other etc. jellyfish stings etc and on the claim form it'll just be put down as "was stung/hit/dumped while at the beach" which for some reason is assumed to mean they were surfing, I've never seen a surfing injury that would have gone to hospital or anything, of course there are probably the big wave surfers might end up with the odd knock/cut that needs a few stitches, but the frequency with which that happens wouldn't even show on the stats. but in general I think they are talking crap saying surfing is a dangerous sport, oh and for the record you'll be lucky if a board lasts past 2 or 3 years (at least my ones anyway) the only fair way to do it would be to charge people to swim between the flags, and do we really want that?

[McJim]

Make the bastards slap a licence plate on their horses, mountain bikes and ruddy surf boards. That'll fix em.

Bugroff!

I've got 1 Car, 2 Motorbikes and 4 Pushbikes. If you get into power I'll be skint!

[Insanity_rules]

Bugroff!

I've got 1 Car, 2 Motorbikes and 4 Pushbikes. If you get into power I'll be skint!


Then I'm backing a bulk discount for more than 1 reg. I currently pay for 2 Cars, 1 Bike and a stuffing Trailer. Not bloody cheap either. Paying rego's sux.

[gamgee]

Then I'm backing a bulk discount for more than 1 reg. I currently pay for 2 Cars, 1 Bike and a stuffing Trailer. Not bloody cheap either. Paying rego's sux.

if you don't like it get rid of the cars and trailer... sorted

[McJim]

Then I'm backing a bulk discount for more than 1 reg. I currently pay for 2 Cars, 1 Bike and a stuffing Trailer. Not bloody cheap either. Paying rego's sux.

That makes more sense - let's face it - it's not like I can ride all of the vehicles at once - the concession should therefore be that ACC levy is only paid once by each person at the rate of the most expensive registered vehicle. therefore if the Bike attracts the highest premium then the second bike and the car should be ACC free.

I can understand what happened with this 'Dangerous List'. They would only look at sporting use. Statistically there are far fewer injuries from motorsports than say rugby, surfing, mountain biking, kick boxing etc. The everyday road use of motorbikes is not being calculated in these stats.

[davereid]

You pay your money and you take your chances...

Health is one of the tricky ones to measure - it doesn't really follow normal market rules.

Today we heard that for each $7 increase in funding, the public health system delivers only $1 in measurable improvements in health outcomes.

On the other hand, pay rates for valuable workers have increased, gobbling up a lot of the money - unmeasurable in health outcomes, but invaluable. I mean you would certainly measure the result if all health professionals pissed off overseas!

In most free markets, price and demand are related. So, if you lower the price of viagra, you would expect demand, and the number of patients needing it to increase. So the market works for a product like viagra.

But lets say we lower the price of treatment for quadraplegia. Will we see more patients ? Not likely.

What have we learned ? IMHO the best way to spend the health dollar is on free public health - the commercial model sucks.

BUT, hospitals currently get given a wad of cash, and get to keep any they don't spend. So your hip operation gets put off.

Compare it to accident cover, provided by ACC. Hospital only get paid for doing the job.

So..

Answer 1 - a free health system funded by tax - but any provider can get the loot as long as the operation is done to approved standard, on time.

Answer 2 - train more doctors, OTs, TRADS, nurses. Yes, a lot of them go overseas for more money. But some have mums, boyfriends, mortgaes and choose to stay. You just can't convince me that there is more money, and better universities in SriLanka. But they produce many many more doctors than us. Just turn the machine up !

sheesh, one of my better raves for a while. Must top up the gin. :rockon:

[Oscar]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3962966a11.html.

Quote: "by far the most dangerous adventure sports were found to be horse riding, mountainbiking, tramping and surfing."
None of which pay ANY ACC levy.

So why do we pay such high ACC premiums? (easy answer -to pay for the horsey set, etc)

It's my fault - I retired from racing...

[scracha]

"However, Canterbury Area Pony Club president Peter Goldsmith said there was already a high emphasis on safety in the sport"

My fuckin arse there is. The number of dipshits I see in the paddock or on the road or fields with no helmets or "cowboy" hats is astonishing. I hardly ever see riders wearing armour or back protectors, even when jumping. I see inexperienced kids (and adults) riding horses on the road who've obviously never had any safety courses given to them.

The horsey mags the missus gets have barely any mention of safe practices or equipment. Most of the racing stables quite often have people working alone with horses and at best there's a basic first aid kit somewhere. The "she'll be right" attitude prevails.

There's more crazy horse riders than motorcyclists IMHO but obviously we're crazy for going over 120kph.

It's funny how dogs have to be continuously registered.....

[YLWDUC]

The ACC system is fundamentally flawed. Although it is a 'no fault' system, Motorcyclists pay a higher ACC levy at registration time, despite the fact that of all motorcycle accidents, less than 50% are the fault of the rider.

[Lorax]

sports dont pay any acc as far as i'm aware, and yet the acc claims from sports are huge..

Every single club rugby player in NZ has an ACC levy in their club fees (somewhere between $50 and $100???), as they were extracting a HUGE toll on the system.

And before people call me a rugby head, I've never played a game of rugby in my life.

Unsure about other sports.

[Ixion]

I do not know why that urban myth keeps coming back. The only rugby players who pay an ACC levy for playing rugby are professionals. They pay it because it is their job.

ACC receives income from ONLY theses sources (1) Levies on motor vehicles . Part of our rego fee (and fuel I think) . This goes into the vehicle injury fund and is used to cover the cost of injuries received on the roads. (2) Employers levies. Paid by employers as a percentage of their payroll. Goes into the Employers fund and is used to (partly) cover the cost of work place accidents. (3) Employee and self employed persons levies. Paid as a percentage of income, usually as part of your income tax (it's a separate thing to income tax, but they collect it at the same time). Self employed are separately invoiced. This goes into the employees fund and is used (along with the employers fund) to cover the cost of work place accidents. (The employers and employees funds have to be separate because some large employers manage their own ACC operations , and are therefore exempted from paying into the employer fund). (4) A "contribution" from central government, which goes into the "General" fund. This is used to cover the cost of non-road, non workplace accidents .

The ACC receive no other income than these (and interest etc on investments).

A rugby club will usually employ people , and will be charged an ACC levy based on that employment. They may well pass that cost onto the members and show it as "ACC". But it forms NO part of any contribution toward the cost of injuries recevied by amateur players.

[idleidolidyll]

Bugroff!

I've got 1 Car, 2 Motorbikes and 4 Pushbikes. If you get into power I'll be skint!

We have a car, 6 mountainbikes, 2 road treadlies, 3 motorbikes: I concur!

Frankly, mountainbiking gives me almost all the thrills plus a few ectras of motorbiking without worrying about flashing lights and losing my licence. Plus I reckon it's the very best training to ride a motorcycle in that it quickens your responses for a very similar 'ride'.
Often on a sunday it's a damn hard choice between a motorbike ride and a mountainbike ride at Vegas, Woodhill, Riverhead, Hunua or Whitford.

If it has been raining for a few days before, Woodhill almost always gets the nod.

Haggi, you're welcome to take my 29" wheeled titanium singlespeed mtb demonstrator out for a ride if you're keen: no obligation. It's set up for someone your size.

ditto for others but on a request basis: call me

Mike 021 621507

[thehovel]

"The ACC system is fundamentally flawed. Although it is a 'no fault' system, Motorcyclists pay a higher ACC levy at registration time, despite the fact that of all motorcycle accidents, less than 50% are the fault of the rider."
__________________
WRONG WRONG For as long as 60% of accidents are ONE vehicle accidents,however multi vehicle accidents where one of vehicle is a bike the bike is in the right about 60% of the time. Their (ACC) reasioning for higher cost is we get hurt more seriously and takes longer to recover.:angry: CUT DOWN ON THE ONE BIKE PRANGS!!!:nono: Regard Richard