Affordable lap timers

[notme]

Well.

Referring to:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=22026&page=2&highlight=lap+timer
and
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3597&highlight=lap+timer

It seems that there is a market for an affordable lap timer - so I've designed one.

At this stage is it a prototype, hence the rough finish in the photos. It is at what we call a "proof of concept" stage, which means that the basic idea has been proven, the concept will work, and now just the details need to be sorted out. The final design will look very similar.

What I have done is design with end cost as the biggest factor, so the cases are off the shelf items rather than a custom mould, I am printing paper labels rather than getting polycarb ones made, and many other similar design decisions. The upshot of this is that the units don't look like one of the professional products out there, but they will work just the same.

The system is a transmitter unit that goes trackside, and a receiver unit that goes on the bike.

FEATURES:
- Works on bikes, cars, people that can run real quick like, whatever.
- Uses IR beam for timing
- LCD display to set up the unit and read times
- Accurate to 1/10th second
- Supports multiple beams (i.e. sector/split timing)
- Stores lap times for analysis at the end of the session
- Cheap!


So, the questions I need answered from you lot are:

Would you be prepared to pay around $200 for this system? The cheapest equivalent product out there that I could find is $400.

The $200 covers a transmitter, a receiver, instruction manual, and a lollipop.
Additional transmitters would be $50. Note that if a group own these things, then each person can use thier own receiver and all use one transmitter, or place the transmitters around the track for split timing.

What functions/features do you want?
There are a lot of features I can think of, but what is useful for racers? Obviously lap and split times, and there will be a quick way to show fastest time of the session....The unit uses the idea of a “session” as being a series of laps. You can show the fastest lap of a session, name a session, delete a session to free some storage space, etc. What else?

To date I have only spent my time and about $100 in prototyping costs, so if nothing further comes of this then I'm not worried, but if it progresses along I will need some sort of deposit or somehting from a reasonable number of people to justify the outlay on building some. I'm thinking something like 10 units guaranteed to sell should be enough.

The photo shows the transmitter (front) and the receiver (back).

So who's interested?

:dodge:

[Sketchy_Racer]

For $200, they will sell. Really good.

And if you talk real nicely to places like Vic club, and Pacific club, you might find they could be fairly interested in getting a few.

If you wanna test one, and it works, i'll buy one

[Sketchy_Racer]

Oh, how many transmitters could you run off 1 reciever?

Or is it as many as you like?

[notme]

Oh, how many transmitters could you run off 1 reciever?

Or is it as many as you like?

As many as you like......well ok within reason. Easily 25 on a short track like the Taupo short version.


If you wanna test one, and it works, i'll buy one

Testing will be starting soon....the units work as in i have tried them up and down the street sorta thing, so the testing on the track by some racers is to show up things like usability, features etc.

After that (a week or 2 depending on lots of things) I will make the first lot, IF I have enough people with a cold hard cash deposit.

[notme]

Something I should have mentioned - this system will NOT be compatible with any existing systems. Doing this would mean they will cost more.

[xwhatsit]

How's it logging the data? If you're using a small microprocessor, like an AVR or PIC or summat, there's plenty of easy ways (cheap, too) to dump the data to a CompactFlash card or the like. This could be plenty helpful -- imagine loading that data back into Excel or whatever, doing calculations on average speeds and times and graphs and all that good stuff.

Of course, you don't really want the project to bloat out too much. It's so easy to get `featuritis', especially from every man and his dog telling you what he would like. Hell, I don't even do trackdays.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Testing will be starting soon....the units work as in i have tried them up and down the street sorta thing, so the testing on the track by some racers is to show up things like usability, features etc.

After that (a week or 2 depending on lots of things) I will make the first lot, IF I have enough people with a cold hard cash deposit.

Well if you get more people, im in.

1 reciever and 2 transmitters...

[notme]

How's it logging the data? If you're using a small microprocessor, like an AVR or PIC or summat, there's plenty of easy ways (cheap, too) to dump the data to a CompactFlash card or the like. This could be plenty helpful -- imagine loading that data back into Excel or whatever, doing calculations on average speeds and times and graphs and all that good stuff.

Of course, you don't really want the project to bloat out too much. It's so easy to get `featuritis', especially from every man and his dog telling you what he would like. Hell, I don't even do trackdays.

But the feedback is appreciated :yes:

Data logging - it has been cut from the feature list for cost reasons.....all it does is mean you don't need to manually enter the laps into a spreadsheet, so it makes that easier rather than making it not possible.

There's nothing to say that there couldn't be a PRO version or similar that has all that, but then again the idea is that it's a CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP unit. If you spent twice the $$$ you could get an entry level mass produced unit, and I know that cost of the ones around the $600 mark all have datalogging.

The units use Atmel AVR processors and will retain say 99 laps in memory, with the idea at this point being that you name each session (as session is a group of laps) then when you get home you can analyse the sessions - e.g. I would name the sessions "bridgestones" and "metzlers" and "wet track" and so on, then analyse the lap times from each session.

[Korea]

Sounds excellent.
But what I'm wondering is Transmitters; will they all run on the same frequency/whatever or is each one 'unique'?
For example, if I set one up at Manfeild and someone else has one, will it go off twice each lap?

Anyways, sounds like a great business idea :niceone:

[notme]

Sounds excellent.
But what I'm wondering is Transmitters; will they all run on the same frequency/whatever or is each one 'unique'?
For example, if I set one up at Manfeild and someone else has one, will it go off twice each lap?

Anyways, sounds like a great business idea :niceone:

At this stage (again, cost reasons) I am thinking that they will all be the same, so yes, if someone else has one you will get 2 triggers per lap.

The low cost to you solution is that if someone else has one at the track, there's no need to get your transmitter out at all! Just use thiers.

Another thing you can do is use both transmitters, and tell your receiver (via the menus) that there are 2 tx's on this track, and it will start split timing. Obviously you need to liase with whoever has the other unit and get them to do the same or they will be the one that gets strange results.

However, if there was demand or you guys tell me that the solution above is impractical after the testing is done, it is possible to make the transmitters have say 10 different codes, so that you can tell your receiver that you are using say code 1, but again this requires liaising with other guys to see what codes are in use already. (unless you just pick a coding and go round the track and see how many triggers you get.....)

I think that at the end of the day, the chances of several people being at the same track on the same day and not being able to sort it out are fairly slim...but the futureproofing is there if it becomes a requirment. :yes:

Also note that the worst case you will have is that you unintentionally get split timing, and you have to add every 2 consecutive lap times together to get the real time.....the timing isn't lost or anything!

[Coyote]

I'm hemidemisemi interested. Would be good for dirt riding and such. Just I wouldn't be able to give you a hard cash deposit anytime soon

[onearmedbandit]

Yup, I'd be keen.

[Sketchy_Racer]

How many people do you need before you'll do a first 'batch' as such?

[xwhatsit]

But the feedback is appreciated :yes:

Data logging - it has been cut from the feature list for cost reasons.....all it does is mean you don't need to manually enter the laps into a spreadsheet, so it makes that easier rather than making it not possible.

There's nothing to say that there couldn't be a PRO version or similar that has all that, but then again the idea is that it's a CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP unit. If you spent twice the $$$ you could get an entry level mass produced unit, and I know that cost of the ones around the $600 mark all have datalogging.

The units use Atmel AVR processors and will retain say 99 laps in memory, with the idea at this point being that you name each session (as session is a group of laps) then when you get home you can analyse the sessions - e.g. I would name the sessions "bridgestones" and "metzlers" and "wet track" and so on, then analyse the lap times from each session.

Cool. No, that's smart. Not only is there the physical hardware, but even more stuff to inevitably debug in software. That's always the hard part -- deciding what features are absolutely necessary and sticking by them. Target market probably isn't going to want to be fiddling around with cables and text files and computer programs anyway.

I know if I had one, I'd end up opening it up and plugging it into my JTAG ICE to get the data, but I'm a geek, lol.

What's the story with the IR? I take it you need direct line of sight? At that speed, how much time have you got to send the signal -- if you want 10 codes, say, is there enough accuracy with IR to use DPSK or something? How do you encode stuff onto an IR medium?

[Racey Rider]

I'm in.

Can we read the screen while on the bike? ie. see what we did that last lap?

My Birthdays coming up. One of these has got to be better than a pair of socks! $100 depoist and the balance before delivery?

Racey

[notme]

Cool. No, that's smart. Not only is there the physical hardware, but even more stuff to inevitably debug in software. That's always the hard part -- deciding what features are absolutely necessary and sticking by them.......

Abso-bloody-lutley! Been there done that got the scars to prove it.



I know if I had one, I'd end up opening it up and plugging it into my JTAG ICE to get the data, but I'm a geek, lol.

Indeed you are, my friend! However, it's quite likely that I'd give you the source code if you wanted to play with it. :-)


What's the story with the IR? I take it you need direct line of sight? At that speed, how much time have you got to send the signal -- if you want 10 codes, say, is there enough accuracy with IR to use DPSK or something? How do you encode stuff onto an IR medium?

The whole technical story of the beam detection is too much to explain in these forums (and too boring!) but basically if you go thru the beam faster than 300km/h you won't get a trigger. If this is a problem for you (!!!!!!!) simply put the transmitter on a slower part of the track.....which brings up a point - if used on a bike as opposed to a car or gokart or whatever, the recevier needs to be on the side of the bike that faces the transmitter when you pass it. So, you can't have the transmitter on say a hairpin, because you will be leaning and probably miss the tx.
Somewhere along a straight will be the best place, most likely at the start/finish or on the pit wall.


As for the encoding....think QPSK :whocares:

[notme]

I'm in.

Can we read the screen while on the bike? ie. see what we did that last lap?



Heya dude!

Short answer is no - for a variety of reasons.

Reading the display while on the bike means a few things that make the design more complex (and therefore more $$$$) such as a sensor that can be mounted remotely from the display, a backlit display for high contrast, big, easy to operate buttons for gloved hands, etc. Also, central to the operation of the unit is that when the bike passes the transmitter, the receiver "sees" the transmitter, so that means the receiver has to be on the side of the bike facing the transmitter rather than up where you can see it...

The units both have mounting tabs (see photos in first post) so they can be cable tied/screwed/velco'ed or whatever to things. I imagine the transmitter being sat on the pit wall or a box or something like that, and the receiver screwed to the bike (anyone mind a small hole in race fairings?) or cable tied, or velcro'ed.

Some of these things are not ideal, but again, that's why I am able to build them so cheaply. :innocent:


My Birthdays coming up. One of these has got to be better than a pair of socks! $100 depoist and the balance before delivery?

Racey

Yeah something like that i guess. We will have to organise something - PM sent.

[notme]

I'm hemidemisemi interested. Would be good for dirt riding and such. Just I wouldn't be able to give you a hard cash deposit anytime soon

Really? Never would have thought dirtybikers would be interested.....do you do laps of a something like a motocross park?

Another compromise that has been made in the design is that it is NOT sealed, so it can't be used in the rain, and I'd be hesitant to use it in a really dusty dirty environment.....depending on demand I can take care of the dirt issue but it will never be a wet weather timer without a more expensive (sealed) case unfortunately.

[Coyote]

Really? Never would have thought dirtybikers would be interested.....do you do laps of a something like a motocross park?

Another compromise that has been made in the design is that it is NOT sealed, so it can't be used in the rain, and I'd be hesitant to use it in a really dusty dirty environment.....depending on demand I can take care of the dirt issue but it will never be a wet weather timer without a more expensive (sealed) case unfortunately.
I'm sure a few dirt riders would like an accurate reading how how quick they're going on their local mx loop. And me and my brother could compete with each other on the same bike

I'm sure a plastic bag would work

[notme]

Good idea(both of them..)! And that's exactly the sort of thing that makes this cheap, is people being prepared to stick a plastic bag over the unit instead of paying lots more for it to be sealed.
:rockon:

[Skunk]

This sounds good. I'm interested...

Does it stand up to vibration well?

[notme]

This sounds good. I'm interested...

Does it stand up to vibration well?

So far so good..... has been designed with all industry standard methods, and tomorrow I have time booked on our whiz bang vibration machine to shake it till it breaks it.

[boomer]

nice work Allun.. if you/they are around in the not so distant future i'll have one.

thumbsup to you sir!

[notme]

Cheers!

Will be around for a while don't you worry....

I'm (pleasantly) surprised at the lack of negative responses along the lines of "it's too big" or "it's too ugly" since usually with my product designs the cosmetics are reasonably high priority!

Or is it just that for once the target market is less interested in pretty bits and more in using this as a tool? Sweet!

Here's another few photos to get an idea of size and possible mounting points on my SV....as previously mentioned, if you had race fairings and didn't mind some small screw holes or sticking velcro to the fairing then that would be ideal, otherwise it has to be cable ties i guess.

Oh - note that the pix show the transmitter unit - in reality you would attach the receiver to the bike, but the receiver prototypes are in use at the moment so i grabbed a transmitter. They are built in the exact same case - again because it cuts the cost to buy all the same cases.

[R6_kid]

I'm (pleasantly) surprised at the lack of negative responses along the lines of "it's too big" or "it's too ugly" since usually with my product designs the cosmetics are reasonably high priority!

Or is it just that for once the target market is less interested in pretty bits and more in using this as a tool? Sweet!

to quote an american forum "style is for posers"

looks a bit chunky, is there much room for minaturisation? Does the pickup need to be able to 'see' the transmitter or can it be in behind a fairing?

[jonbuoy]

Great idea mate but I think you would sell more if it had a display to let you know if your getting better or worse times without pit crew relaying it to you.

[Drunken Monkey]

Yeah man, looks good. I would just want something functional, I don't mind keying data in manually (already doing that with my G-meter anyway). Got any for demo?

[Shaun]

Great idea mate but I think you would sell more if it had a display to let you know if your getting better or worse times without pit crew relaying it to you.


Exellent work mate, I agree with the above post 100%

[notme]

to quote an american forum "style is for posers"

looks a bit chunky, is there much room for minaturisation? Does the pickup need to be able to 'see' the transmitter or can it be in behind a fairing?

Miniaturization = cost goes up. :bye:

The biggest factor there is actually the LCD....

To give you an insight into the tortured mind of an electronics design engineer:

-I need an LCD.
-I need at least 2 lines, 12 columns (worked out based on the application)
-Closest standard LCD is 2X16, so that's what we choose because standard off the shelf = cheap.
-The LCD must use the type of interface I need, so some of them are out.
-This leaves a small selection, so choose the cheapest.
-This LCD has minimum width of x, so the case must be at least x wide.
-Case must be plastic for easy working and readily available in small qtys
-Nearest standard case comes in a size that is too small, and a size that is a bit too big. Choose the one that is a bit too big.
-Case needs to fit the battery inside, and the case above does not (too shallow)
-Choose next case size up, now case is quite large.

So at this point the case has a lot of air in it, but without choosing to make the circuit more complex to run off a different battery (it's a 9v batt), or finding a more expensive but more compact LCD, or a custom case.... you get the idea.

The only way I can hold the price to $200 is by having a lot of compromises....one thing i can say is that there are few compromises in the electronic design and software!

Crappy packaging, but a good heart. :yes:

Hey, if a lot of them sell, I will be able (and willing) to put some money into making some improvements. And having said that, after a few people have tested these at the track for me, there might be enough interest to justify me doing some of the improvements before the first version even rolls out the door.

A few very small things would make it a much better product - like a label!

You wouldn't think it, but a simple label professionally printed would make this thing look better, would make the buttons semi-sealed and thus splashproof and dustproof, would make the case drilling easier (less accuracy needed) and would stand up to wear and tear better than the paper ones.

Anyone got favors to pull at a label printing place?

[notme]

to quote an american forum "style is for posers"

looks a bit chunky, is there much room for minaturisation? Does the pickup need to be able to 'see' the transmitter or can it be in behind a fairing?

Opps forgot to answer the last bit, sorry G!

It's optical - the transmitter and receiver need to look each other in da eye when they pass.

[notme]

Great idea mate but I think you would sell more if it had a display to let you know if your getting better or worse times without pit crew relaying it to you.

Hmm..... this is why i need feedback u see - is it critical to have this? Critical enough to either skimp on something else or raise the cost?

Serious question....

[Motoracer]

I am in. asap, this week, tonight, right this min.

Whever is good for you bro, just as long as it works. I'll pay the $$.

[jonbuoy]

Hmm..... this is why i need feedback u see - is it critical to have this? Critical enough to either skimp on something else or raise the cost?

Serious question....

I guess it depends on what your looking for, as it is its kind of like a lap logger - right? You can't see the times till you get off the bike so it would be OK if you wanted to check an improvement in lap times after a gearing change or engine tweak? If someone wanted to know if a change in corner line or just show any improvements in their times while there out there it wouldn't be so handy. I'm not qualified to answer this one. Even a small display with difference in seconds and a +/- sign would be useful?

[Motoracer]

You wouldn't think it, but a simple label professionally printed would make this thing look better, would make the buttons semi-sealed and thus splashproof and dustproof, would make the case drilling easier (less accuracy needed) and would stand up to wear and tear better than the paper ones.

Anyone got favors to pull at a label printing place?

In all honesty I hate using the net to communicate. PM me your number and we'll talk. About design and printing. I can recommend a good place.

Read through your whole thread. Only thing comes to mind is durability. Racers crash. It's a fact of life. It needs to be attached to the side of the bike but it will have to be well protected. Next thing is, I think it is of the utmost importance to know how well or unwell your riding is going while you are riding.

[notme]

Ok, good feedback guys, keep it up! It will only make for a better product.

OK, for youse fullas that want to use it for a quick indication of "that lap was better than the one before it", how about a super bright LED on the "top" side?
So if the thing is mounted on a bike as in my photos, with the writing on the label the right way up, the top (long) side could have a bright LED on it.

This LED would (chime in if you have other ideas) light up for say 10 seconds after you pass the timing point, IF the lap just done was quicker than the one before it. You would see it out of your peripheral vision, especially if it was bright, red, and flashing. Maybe it should be blue and red flashing? :Police:

As for crash damage, yes I have thought of that, and although it sounds crude, my current approach is to keep the things cheap so that they are not expensive to replace.

As with all products I develop, i did a lot of research before starting this thing. The really expensive units will not fare a hell of a lot better in a crash than this one - the best protection one of them had to offer was that they recommended mounting it with velcro or thin cable ties so it would break away in a crash and not get too badly damaged!

i am willing (as with any aspects of the unit) to revisit the crash resistance, depending on what the demand is. Wouldn't you have much bigger things to worry about in a crash though?....I dunno, maybe I'm thinking like a street rider - with good reason! I'm not a racer....educate me.

[bumsex]

shit yeah I will buy one.
Kepp us informed of your progress.

Chris

[notme]

OK,

due in part to all the feedback I've had so far via this thread and many many PM's and phone calls, it seems that this project is worth going ahead with.

Will keep updates coming, but be aware that until i can demonstrate that it is viable, this will only be a personal project. It seems that it is going to become a ProTech (my work) product eventually though, so when it does i will have a lot more resources to throw at it!

Someone here at work just put an idea into my head that if it works will make the whole thing heaps better, without increasing the price!

SO, anyone who's reading this and interested, just please post an expression of interest so I can get a real idea of the interest level - I won;t hold you to anything, but the more interest I can show the others at work, the more of a case I can make to have it become an official PTNZ product. :-)

[boostin]

Def interesting at that price! keep us updated.

[Cajun]

Interested (c: <

Like others have said would be really keen if there was some way to get data out in the future, cause this would really tie in handy with some software i am writing

[Sketchy_Racer]

I guess it depends on what your looking for, as it is its kind of like a lap logger - right? You can't see the times till you get off the bike so it would be OK if you wanted to check an improvement in lap times after a gearing change or engine tweak? If someone wanted to know if a change in corner line or just show any improvements in their times while there out there it wouldn't be so handy. I'm not qualified to answer this one. Even a small display with difference in seconds and a +/- sign would be useful?

Tbh,

In the middle of a race, i dont care what lap times i am doing, as long as they are faster than 2nd place.

At a track where testing new lines etc, sure it could be helpfull. But in reality, i dont think the advantages of it would out weight the disadvantages.

And how many places are you normally going to be doing more than 15 laps at a time, so just check em when you come in, and think about what you did differntly if there was a odd slow lap or a fast lap.

Use the brain, not technology

[Racey Rider]

)K, for youse fullas that want to use it for a quick indication of "that lap was better than the one before it", how about a super bright LED on the "top" side?
So if the thing is mounted on a bike as in my photos, with the writing on the label the right way up, the top (long) side could have a bright LED on it.
This LED would (chime in if you have other ideas) light up for say 10 seconds after you pass the timing point, IF the lap just done was quicker than the one before it. You would see it out of your peripheral vision, especially if it was bright, red, and flashing. Maybe it should be blue and red flashing? :Police:


I would think that would be of little value, as who knows if the lap before was a good one or not (ie. your standard lap time: did I really go faster? or do I still need to 'pull finger' to beat my Best Time?)


As for crash damage, yes I have thought of that, and although it sounds crude, my current approach is to keep the things cheap so that they are not expensive to replace.
.... Wouldn't you have much bigger things to worry about in a crash though?....I dunno, maybe I'm thinking like a street rider - with good reason! I'm not a racer....educate me.

Crash damage to an item like that depends alot on where it's placed on the bike. On the outside of the flarings or on the lower forks puts it in a good place to be damaged. Upper forks - behind flarings gives good protection, but the receiver can't 'see' the transmitter. We would be trying to fit it to the bike frame somewhere I guess, that isn't such an impact point in a crash.


Have I got the picture properly that, at the moment, we could read the lap times of any recorded session directly off the receiver unit, after we get off the bike? But we can't read whats happening as we ride because?? 1. the position of the receiver on the bike. 2. The receiver wording is too small?
Or am I missing something?

[notme]

I would think that would be of little value, as who knows if the lap before was a good one or not (ie. your standard lap time: did I really go faster? or do I still need to 'pull finger' to beat my Best Time?)

yeah, upon thinking about it, what you really want is the indicator to go off after a lap if that lap was better than the fastest one so far. Whatever the logic is, it's just a matter of deciding on it, and since it is in software we can try things then change them later :-)

Crash damage to an item like that depends alot on where it's placed on the bike. On the outside of the flarings or on the lower forks puts it in a good place to be damaged. Upper forks - behind flarings gives good protection, but the receiver can't 'see' the transmitter. We would be trying to fit it to the bike frame somewhere I guess, that isn't such an impact point in a crash.

On my bike perfect positiong would be beside a crash bung. I can see the transmitter just fine, and is protected by the bung in a crash...there's so many variables with the mounting that i think we'll have to jsut get out there and see what works!

Have I got the picture properly that, at the moment, we could read the lap times of any recorded session directly off the receiver unit, after we get off the bike? But we can't read whats happening as we ride because?? 1. the position of the receiver on the bike. 2. The receiver wording is too small?
Or am I missing something?

nope, you got it it one.

[geoffm]

I had a Hotlap on board laptimer (before vibration killed it). It had a display to read while riding, which was a good feature - very useful for trying lines, etc as it gives instant feedback of what worked or not. IMO a must have feature.
Geoff

[kickingzebra]

good idea... how about, with regards to displaying the time, a row of 10 odd leds, with a mid point at your average lap, and each led represents a half second or so. I need to know while on the track what to try to pick up time, so a display of some sort is perhaps more crucial than historical data. would be keen if something like that can be achieved.
cheers

[Skunk]

OK, due in part to all the feedback I've had so far via this thread and many many PM's and phone calls, it seems that this project is worth going ahead with.

SO, anyone who's reading this and interested, just please post an expression of interest so I can get a real idea of the interest level - I won;t hold you to anything, but the more interest I can show the others at work, the more of a case I can make to have it become an official PTNZ product. :-)
Add a two option poll to the thread and make the names visible. Whoever is interested can tick it.
One option they'll take it as is (or better).
Other option they'll take only if options are added.

Be easier than reading all this to figure out where you're going.

As for crash damage - I know some of the race guys push to the point of nearly crashing to find the limits. That means they could crash often...

[vifferman]

I see a flaw with having it optical: if anything (like another bike) is in the way, it doesn't trigger the lap counter.

[notme]

I see a flaw with having it optical: if anything (like another bike) is in the way, it doesn't trigger the lap counter.

Correct. This is another compromise in order to keep costs down - there are systems out there that will circumvent this if it's a necessity.

But, the stats should be ok on the probability of this happening, since another vehicle (remember this can be used on cars too) has to be right next to you just as you go across the timing point.

The original concept discussed with a few ppl here and in other forums was that there was a market niche for a cheap lap timer that was intended for trackdays or weekends where racers wanted to improve thier times after doing mods, taking different riding approaches etc - i.e. do a couple of laps then try that other race can/tyres/cornering technique. If used in a race situation the blocking thing might become an issue.

Optical = cheap and easy to set up. Magnetic, inductive, radio, and a lot of other solutions all require mods to the track (not practical) or would increase the cost significantly, at which point i'm competing against established products that have had thousands of R&D put into them.

Optical is the "best" solution for this application, that's why most of the commercial lap timer products use it.

I even had a crazy idea at one point:
- have a contrast sensor pointing downwards from the bike.
- put the unit in "learn" mode and go once only around the track.
- the unit picks up changes in contrast due to painted lines, track variations etc and stores them
- put the unit in "lap" mode, and every time it detects the certain pattern of contrast changes it starts/stops the timer.

:-)

[notme]

The design of this thing may have changed a bit, with feedback from youse guys and long chats with some of the good buggers with good info - so here's today's question:

Would a remote sensor (see pic) make this "better" for you?

The idea being that the display unit goes on your dash or somewhere like that, and the sensor goes on the mirror/fairing/end of handlebar/mudguard or anywhere else that can "see the transmitter as you zip past.

The advantage is that the sensor that goes on the side of the bike is now much smaller and easier to mount, you can now see the display cos it's on your dash, the display unit (expensive bit!) is less likely to get damaged in a crash, and you could potentially have sensors on multiple bikes, and just plug in the display unit to the bike you are using today.

The new sensor could also be permanently mounted and left on the bike even if it's your road bike, cos it is so small and unobtrusive. Then for trackdays you plug in the display unit.

Comments?

(aaaargh piss on it....this time i have attached the pic!)

[kickingzebra]

sounds gooderer and gooderer

[HDTboy]

That sounds much better. My biggest concerns are vibration, crash damage, and being able to see a display when riding.

Even though $200 is cheap(ish) I wouldn't want to have to pay $200 every time I crash

[Skunk]

Bloody near perfect! How big is the display box (I can't find a size posted anywhere).

[notme]

That sounds much better. My biggest concerns are vibration, crash damage, and being able to see a display when riding.

Even though $200 is cheap(ish) I wouldn't want to have to pay $200 every time I crash

Seems to be the theme huh?

Well, I am right now re-assessing the practicality of changing the display to be easier to see when riding, and the crash damage issue should be taken care of with the new sensor arrangement, since the only exposed part is the wee sensor which is cheap to replace, and the main unit is now intended to be mounted on the dash where it is as safe as possible in a crash (certainly a lot more safe than hanging off the side of the bike!)

[notme]

Bloody near perfect! How big is the display box (I can't find a size posted anywhere).

At the moment approx 120mmx60mm (see http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=942510&postcount=24, but be aware the case has changed for the better and the box is now to be mounted on the dash....)

Making it smaller requires $$$ (some smaller parts, development time) but is entirely possible.

[Skunk]

120x60 is small enough (though smaller is better!). I've got a small bike which has space under the 'pillion seat' area but I want to see the display... Not asking for a change (remote sensor and display!) just stating why I asked. That size is small enough to fit on the bars.

[aff-man]

mate you still looking for decent LCD modules??

2 lines, I think they are 16 characters, low power and are PLEDS which make em purrty. We use em at work so can get some in for you if willing.. Oh and how much for the source code?? Might have a delve and a play.

Am actually working on one of these myself except I kinda am using an old cell phone and some IR sesors hahahahaha.

p.s. on the hardware side. are they hole through components?? If you've got schematics and such I can redesign and make a 2 layer SMD version which should be a bit smaller...

[notme]

mate you still looking for decent LCD modules??

2 lines, I think they are 16 characters, low power and are PLEDS which make em purrty. We use em at work so can get some in for you if willing.. Oh and how much for the source code?? Might have a delve and a play.


not really - we are using a 16x2 in another product here so have shelves full of them - cheers though.


Am actually working on one of these myself except I kinda am using an old cell phone and some IR sesors hahahahaha.


I can see the Jonno solution ..... give a cell to a spotter on the side of the track and get them to hit the stopwatch when you call to say "going past......NOW!" :shit:



p.s. on the hardware side. are they hole through components?? If you've got schematics and such I can redesign and make a 2 layer SMD version which should be a bit smaller...


Through-hole at this stage for proto's, might become SMT at a later stage. The main reason for thruhole is that we can fabricate the boards onsite cheaper than getting them made, so it will only become SMT if/when sales make that possible. I'd say if that happens, that we'd be able to get a mould opened for a custom case as well.

[aff-man]

not really - we are using a 16x2 in another product here so have shelves full of them - cheers though.


I can see the Jonno solution ..... give a cell to a spotter on the side of the track and get them to hit the stopwatch when you call to say "going past......NOW!" :shit:




Through-hole at this stage for proto's, might become SMT at a later stage. The main reason for thruhole is that we can fabricate the boards onsite cheaper than getting them made, so it will only become SMT if/when sales make that possible. I'd say if that happens, that we'd be able to get a mould opened for a custom case as well.[/QUOTE]

i'll be going to a few track days and such.. make a poster and i'll put one up.

i've actually just piggy backed the button on the cell phone..

[Racey Rider]

Would a remote sensor (see pic) make this "better" for you?
The idea being that the display unit goes on your dash or somewhere like that, and the sensor goes on the mirror/fairing/end of handlebar/mudguard or anywhere else that can "see the transmitter as you zip past.


Sounds good to me!!

[CM2005]

i just give mum my watch..

[geoffm]

Looking good. I'd be keen (as long as it is a couple of months away - bloody IRD)
Geoff

[notme]

WELL.

Mucho apologies for the ...erm many months without an update, but I have been busy with a few small things (restructuring at work, physically moving work AND home across town, etc etc) and playing on the net has had to come a second to the rest of my life for a while........

BUT. Here's an update on the lap timer - the good news and the bad news.

The good:

See pics. Smaller, better, does more, easier to use, more robust. The idea is that the main unit goes on your dash, and the sensor plugs in then goes to the side of the bike somewhere.
The basic functionality works, and it works well - now it's a case of adding features.


The bad:

Development was in my spare time and was when work with all of it's tools and resources was a little closer to get to on the weekend. The change in location means that work on this has basically stalled now. The only way forward is to either continue on slowly in my (little) spare time, or to make it a proper work project and product. Doing it in my own time would mean it gets done slowly, but cheaply. Doing it as a proper work project means i can throw work time at it so it gets done quicker (i.e. in time for better weather to come along so it can be used!) but someone has to pay for that work time. Damn the sad reality of business life!

So, my plan is to continue slowly working on this - i.e. an hour or 2 each weekend, but the purpose of posting this update is to a) let those interested know what's going on and b) fish a little bit - maybe someone will pop up and say HEY i just won lotto and i want to sponsor the development of this thing! :laugh: Hey....it could happen....just watch out for flying pigshit!

A

[Tim 39]

Speaking for myself here, If I was to buy one I would just want a basic lap timer with only the features I'd need i.e storing lap times and that about it, that way I think it would be far more affordable to people like myself who dont want to pay a huge amount for something that does everything I don't need it to. or you could make a basic model (ready now?? what sort of price??) and then carry on building the flash do it all one

[notme]

Speaking for myself here, If I was to buy one I would just want a basic lap timer with only the features I'd need i.e storing lap times and that about it, that way I think it would be far more affordable to people like myself who dont want to pay a huge amount for something that does everything I don't need it to. or you could make a basic model (ready now?? what sort of price??) and then carry on building the flash do it all one


The price for the "flash" one will be about half the cost of the cheapest commercial one i could find.....

Good suggestions, but the parts that make up the basic timer are the parts that cost the most. So in order to make it work at all it will cost $whatever, then to add a few features to make it flash costs $whatever+alittlebit.

Similar thing with the development. Gettting it working at all was about 75% of the work, the finishing off so that it is practical to make in quantities will be another 24% of the total work, then changin the wording on the display or the order times are displayed or whatever other features people want is nothing at all.

[Tim 39]

whats your price estimate at the moment? still around $200?

[notme]

Yup.


around $200 for a kit of 1 transmitter, 1 receiver, 1 sensor, 1 set of instructions. future extras that could be bought are any of the parts seperately (i.e. you lose or kill your sensor, or you want to do split timing so you buy another transmitter) and (very sketchy details at the momenet) addons like a serial port or usb port cable to download times.

[Tim 39]

Yup.


around $200 for a kit of 1 transmitter, 1 receiver, 1 sensor, 1 set of instructions. future extras that could be bought are any of the parts seperately (i.e. you lose or kill your sensor, or you want to do split timing so you buy another transmitter) and (very sketchy details at the momenet) addons like a serial port or usb port cable to download times.

That all sounds very good to me :)

[Sanx]

Allun; good update mate. The development sounds well advanced. Just a few thoughts:
As you're now going with a seperate transceiver and display module, could you then have different transceiver types? Ones that detect the strips in the track where the tracks have them, and the IR modules for those that don't? Will the transceiver module and display modules share the same power source? If they can, can the more vulnerable to crash / rain damage part - the transceiver - can be made smaller and possibly be made a little more resilient to vibration and moisture by covering all the electronics in epoxy? Even with a display, some form of visual comparative lap time indicator does sound like a good idea. Displays need reading, and sometimes the time needed is just not available. As someone suggested, a row of ten or twelve LEDs along the top could be used a simple lap-time guide. Make half of them red and half green, and each time you go through past the beacon, it lights up one LED per 500ms above or below the last lap time. Lastly: did you still want to borrow my mate's lap timer / beacon so you can code yours not to interfere? If so, drop me a PM.

[notme]

Allun; good update mate. The development sounds well advanced. Just a few thoughts:
As you're now going with a seperate transceiver and display module, could you then have different transceiver types? Ones that detect the strips in the track where the tracks have them, and the IR modules for those that don't?
Sure could....BUT. The only receiver that has been developed so far is the IR one. My research last year suggested that the IR method was the way to go because it doesn't rely on anything at the track, i.e. you can use it anywhere (anywhere legal of course).



Will the transceiver module and display modules share the same power source? If they can, can the more vulnerable to crash / rain damage part - the transceiver - can be made smaller and possibly be made a little more resilient to vibration and moisture by covering all the electronics in epoxy?
I see your thinking - this is how it works: The system comprises of a tranmitter that sits trackside (top of pit wall or whatever) and a part that goes on the bike. The part that goes on the bike is the display and brains module that goes on the dash, and the IR pickup that goes on the side of the bike facing the transmitter. The IR pickup will be sealed, plus it's the cheapest part to replace, all of which is by design since it will probly get wiped out in the event of a crash. The brain (once the design is finalized!) will confirm to industry standard practice - we do this @ work all the time so yeah it will be potted in epoxy or similar.



Even with a display, some form of visual comparative lap time indicator does sound like a good idea. Displays need reading, and sometimes the time needed is just not available. As someone suggested, a row of ten or twelve LEDs along the top could be used a simple lap-time guide. Make half of them red and half green, and each time you go through past the beacon, it lights up one LED per 500ms above or below the last lap time.
This has also evolved since the update a few months ago - if you look near the bottom left of the LCD in my first photo, you can (just) see a water-clear LED. It's a superbright orange one, and is pretty damn hard to miss when the unit is on your dash! I'll have the unit running such that it flashes or somefink if the lap you just did is faster than the previous (configurable option of course!)



Lastly: did you still want to borrow my mate's lap timer / beacon so you can code yours not to interfere? If so, drop me a PM.


Cheers for the offer - not necessary at least at this stage :-)

:rockon:

[Sketchy_Racer]

Let us know when they are ready for sale.

Im keen to get one asap

[Sanx]

Sure could....BUT. The only receiver that has been developed so far is the IR one. My research last year suggested that the IR method was the way to go because it doesn't rely on anything at the track, i.e. you can use it anywhere (anywhere legal of course).

But if the sensor to controller interface was standard, perhaps the magnetic strip sensor could be developed at a later date.


This has also evolved since the update a few months ago - if you look near the bottom left of the LCD in my first photo, you can (just) see a water-clear LED. It's a superbright orange one, and is pretty damn hard to miss when the unit is on your dash! I'll have the unit running such that it flashes or somefink if the lap you just did is faster than the previous (configurable option of course!)

Was just thinking it might be nice to have an easily recognisable indicator of your comparative lap time. If you see lots of green, you've done well. If you see lots of red, you've done poorly. If you see a little green, you know you're gradually getting quicker. That type of thing.


Cheers for the offer - not necessary at least at this stage :-)

No probs. Let me know if you need it.

Another thought; I see you're using a PP9 9V battery. Have you looked into any other type of battery that might be available that could help minimise size; for instance, mobile phone ones. They're usually thin and flat, so could fit behind the PCB more easily. Whilst it would push the initial cost up, it would help save money in the long run as you wouldn't have to replace PP9s all the time. The battery technology's around and the chargers are easy to come by. My Nokia one only runs at 4V, but there might be something around that's suitable.

Anyway ... I'll stop interfering in something I know nothing about now :shutup:

[steveyb]

Hi.
Sorry to be a bit of a downer, but you should really consider if your time will be well spent pursuing this. If you want to do it as a project and just to have a go, great. Many of us do such things just for the hell of it.

If however, you are thinking that you are doing it to possibly manufacture and sell some, you really should think carefully.

There is a good number of manufacturers of this sort of equipment internationally (indeed one is/was in Christchurch, Wasp Engineering, not sure their current status). What is your competitive edge, your point of difference and unique selling proposition?

The main reasons why this equipment is not readily available in NZ is due to the small market and the tight margins. But for example, AIMSports equipment, among the market leaders, is available through Lascom in Lower Hutt and might soon be available through another local dealer specialising in motorcycle application. Remember that the AIM and Alfano stuff works on both mag stips and IR, so will work at virtually any circuit in the world and they run on flat 3V (?) Li batteries.

Prices? This sort of electronic gear is not really that cheap to manufacture in a presentable form and in a form that will withstand the rigours of motorcycle racing:rain, vibration, impacts etc. People also need to make a profit if they are taking the risk to design, develop, manufacture or to import and inventory this stuff.

I would think carefully about approaching this from a business point of view. If you have not seen the competition products in the flesh, then you must, as they are all very nice peices of kit nowadays. To be better and indeed to be cheaper will be very difficult, as if your gear is the same price or even a bit less than an AIM product available over the internet, then why will anyone buy one? Just cos it is made in NZ? Not a sustainable business proposition.

Again, sorry to be a downer, but I am in this business, albeit in quite a small way, and it is very difficult to do better than an established manufacturer who has been in the market for many years.

But to make a more positive comment, there are certain business and R&D grants available from government that might allow you to pay for R&D at your business as a proper project. Check out FRST and TechNZ websites.

Best of luck

Steve.

[notme]

But if the sensor to controller interface was standard, perhaps the magnetic strip sensor could be developed at a later date.

the interface is "standard enough" as little sense as that makes, that adding other sensor types won't be a problem.



Was just thinking it might be nice to have an easily recognisable indicator of your comparative lap time. If you see lots of green, you've done well. If you see lots of red, you've done poorly. If you see a little green, you know you're gradually getting quicker. That type of thing.

Point taken....but unfortunately it's easy to have 1 or even 2 led's that can flash or come on or whatever to indicate various things, but an array of them means having enough spare pins on the microcontroller for one per LED or else multiplexing hardware of some sort. These things are not conducive to keeping the size and cost down.....


Another thought; I see you're using a PP9 9V battery. Have you looked into any other type of battery that might be available that could help minimise size; for instance, mobile phone ones. They're usually thin and flat, so could fit behind the PCB more easily. Whilst it would push the initial cost up, it would help save money in the long run as you wouldn't have to replace PP9s all the time. The battery technology's around and the chargers are easy to come by. My Nokia one only runs at 4V, but there might be something around that's suitable.

YYet another size/cost/complexity decision. Chucking a 9V battery connector on the unit is somewhat easier and simpler than some sort of (expensive) recargeable battery, which also means providing a charger ...quite cheap nowadays i know but when the retail cost of the unit is to be $200 a rechargeable batt and charger might be 25% of the build cost!
The battery life in the display unit should be pretty good - another reason i've used an LCD rather than many LEDs - much less power hungry. I'd expect something like 18 to 20 hours of run time before the battery needs changing.


Anyway ... I'll stop interfering in something I know nothing about now :shutup:


Hehehe you sound like you know more than you're letting on! Yer thought processes are right on the money mate :yes:

[notme]

Was asked via PM if this could be applied to 1/4 mile times - the answer is YES, but you need 2 transmitters. Any number of transmitters will be able to be used on a track, and the unit will give split times. 1/4 mile is just the split time between 2 transmitters - so i'd just have an option in the setup screens called "1/4 mile" or similar. :-)

[Waylander]

Was asked via PM if this could be applied to 1/4 mile times - the answer is YES, but you need 2 transmitters. Any number of transmitters will be able to be used on a track, and the unit will give split times. 1/4 mile is just the split time between 2 transmitters - so i'd just have an option in the setup screens called "1/4 mile" or similar. :-)

Good from a standing start though or would it start counting the time as soon as you got next to it?

[notme]

Good from a standing start though or would it start counting the time as soon as you got next to it?

The 1/4 mile mode would have you starting in line with the first transmitter, so that when you leave the beam the timer starts, then when you hit the next beam (1/4 of a mile away) the timer would stop.

[Waylander]

The 1/4 mile mode would have you starting in line with the first transmitter, so that when you leave the beam the timer starts, then when you hit the next beam (1/4 of a mile away) the timer would stop.
OK sweet as then.
I'm interested in a set.