Odd sales pitch for home ventilation systems?

[Paul in NZ]

Apparently it's a new family record - I'm the rudess person this door to door salesman has ever met in a year of doing his job!! :rockon:

Anyway - thats not quite fair because we did accept the appointment from the telemarketter regarding the product. Just his bad luck to turn up on a monday night when my blood sugars are low I expect? Pffft! Or maybe - just maybe when faced with some genuine questions from an engineering type - he spat the dummy...

So. Home Ventilation...

http://www.hrv.co.nz/default.aspx

No doubt it has SOME good things going for it and it will live up to some of the claims for sure BUT. Our problem is we live in a bit of a gully and loose the sun early in the winter and gone completely by the time we get home so we won't get much heating. Not so he reckons as it will be hot enough to provide heat (note that they never quite claim it will replace your heating system and to be fair he stressed that - and then told us we would probably never have to use our heaters 'cos we were not that cold in winter...). The question is - do the benefits outweight the costs?

Then he tells me it will cool the house in the summer? Eh? Apparently when the sun goes down it gets cold in the ceiling and it will cool the house on those hot summer evenings. Um - that seems to contradict what he is telling me above. Nice but frankly there are 5 of those evenings a year in Kapiti?? How much will it cost?

All the time he is drawing REALLY silly diagrams on his piece of paper suitable for a 5 year old and pulling random figures out of the air. I challange and couple of his facts. (It forces air out of your home - erm no it does NOT - the air escapes because of the positive pressure in the house provided there are always leaky bits but it does not actively force or duct OUT the air. How much does it fucking COST!!!!

It dries the air.... No it fucking does NOT. A de humidifier dries the air, this sucks in drier air and (hopefully) displaces damper air but it does NOT actively dry it (which is EXACTLY what I asked). If it's very humid outside or raining it will suck in damp air too.... How much does it cost..?? PLEASE.

Then he shows me his switch thing which frankly is pretty ordinary with a clever label that looks nice...

I'm examining cloely because I have an interest in such things and he gets shitty...

Hmm - I tell him I've designed a few air cond systems for telephone exchanges ver the years and was well trained in the basic function of these things and have a good grounding in basic physics so I KNOW how it works - its a bloody fan in the roof that blows air into the house. HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?

All I found out was....

A filter cost $250 and I need 2 and the last 2 years (alarm bells going off)

He does not want me as a customer (mutual by now) and would never sell a system (it's a fucking fan ffs) without explaining how it works (groan - I KNOW HOW IT WORKS BUT EVERY TIME I ASK YOU A DIRECT TECHNICAL QUESTION YOU HALF ANSWER IT AN AVOID IT)

Apparently I'm the RUDEST person he has ever dealt with and he stomped off??? What? I agree - I'm VERY direct but I'm not rude, he just was not able to answer my questions...

Bit of fun I thought but...

Do these things work? It's financed by GE Money (alarm bells REALLY going off) and this idiot was a waste of space (lets not talk about the body odour problem - guess he has a fan in his car)

Paul N

Rudeest man in Kapiti and still wanting to know if these things work (apparently they do cos he out sells the competition 4/1)

[Madness]

Sounds like you missed a bloody bargain there Paul.

I know a guy who had a DVS (gotta love that bit) franchise a while back. He was boasting about the growth & revenue & blah blah. Funny thing is, the time I last saw him before this day he tried to sell me on Amway. Go figure.

[Oakie]

We bought a DVS 3 or 4 years ago. Brilliant! Wiped out our condensation problem literally overnight. No mould in the house now. Warms the whole house in winter and on those really hot days in summer you flick it into 'cold' mode and it puts a nice chill in the air ... as long as you remember to close all the windows and keep the doors closed.

[Motu]

I think our wives have a lot in common - I sure they will have endless discussion comparing the rudest man south of Taupo with the rudest man north of Taupo.My last outburst was with the Yellow Pages salesman,I ranted and raved in an obnoxcious manner before hanging up.My wife had to ring him up the next day and appologise and say just do the same as last year.I just hate salesmen - lucky I can't ever afford to buy a new bike,I'd be banned from this site.

[Paul in NZ]

We bought a DVS 3 or 4 years ago. Brilliant! Wiped out our condensation problem literally overnight. No mould in the house now. Warms the whole house in winter and on those really hot days in summer you flick it into 'cold' mode and it puts a nice chill in the air ... as long as you remember to close all the windows and keep the doors closed.

Sweet - roughly what did it cost? DVS have been around for yonks I thought? This guy reckons his was better?

[Paul in NZ]

I think our wives have a lot in common - I sure they will have endless discussion comparing the rudest man south of Taupo with the rudest man north of Taupo.My last outburst was with the Yellow Pages salesman,I ranted and raved in an obnoxcious manner before hanging up.My wife had to ring him up the next day and appologise and say just do the same as last year.I just hate salesmen - lucky I can't ever afford to buy a new bike,I'd be banned from this site.

Ha ha! I suspect you might be right and whats more the discussion will happen in a room with the bloody windows open and no phone book!

[Toaster]

We bought a DVS 3 or 4 years ago. Brilliant! Wiped out our condensation problem literally overnight. No mould in the house now. Warms the whole house in winter and on those really hot days in summer you flick it into 'cold' mode and it puts a nice chill in the air ... as long as you remember to close all the windows and keep the doors closed.

Dude... "cold mode" do you mean "winter" mode? My place is North Auckland, new, very well insulated, lots of glass, with DVS and flippin' hot!!

[James Deuce]

We've got a Drivaire system (Fisher & Paykel's model) with five outlets and a filter. It's a positive pressure system and it really has eliminated mold and dampness in Winter. We never used to be able to see out our windows in Winter, and our Vertical blinds needed specialist cleaning twice a year. We get all day sun so the roofspace gets quite warm, even in Winter. It's usually 4C above ambient minimum, so we get the benefits of that. It will pickup air either from the lounge or the roofspace in Winter, depending on what is warmer and it will change the direction of airflow if necessary.

However, to cool in Summer, Drivaire requires a Heat Pump (Heat exchange Air-Con), which we'll be getting in a couple of months, plus it will provide the extra heat we need in Winter to avoid having to use a heater at all.

Don't worry about being rude. I gave the DVS guy and the Drivaire guy the same sort of grilling. The Drivaire guy passed when he said you needed a heat exchanger to get cool air in Summer. The DVS guy got shouty with me too, so you're not the only rude guy South of Taupo. Interestingly, DVS was half the price with only a single outlet supposedly doing what the Drivaire does with 5.

[Paul in NZ]

Ah - this would be the competition he claims he does not have - keep em coming guys - any KB's sell them - recommend brands?

[sedge]

My thoughts... Mrs wanted one of these... Talked to the guy and read the stuff.

It still costs the same to heat your house with DVS HRV etc as it does to run a heater...

So, why not buy one of those 1 to 4 room heat transfer kits with thermostat ($400 ish) and just heat the lounge...

In fact you could buy this and get a heat pump installed that would heat or cool the whole house for less than the cost of DVS... It would also dehumidify and purify the air... And cost a 1/3 to run !

We put a transfer kit in and use our woodburner in winter. Fill up the burner at night, set the lounge temp to 28 and the excess heat gets pumped around the house... Toasty and dry for eight hours.

Ah, FYI, I'm not affiliated with the transfer kit manufacturers association, just with the sceptical cheap bastards who don't like getting ripped off association.

Sedge.

[Paul in NZ]

Ah, FYI, I'm not affiliated with the transfer kit manufacturers association, just with the sceptical cheap bastards who don't like getting ripped off association.

Sedge.

See you at the next meeting mate....

[Drum]

Consumer looked into the various systems last year. Here's some free info from them.......

http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&docid=487&subcategory=Heating%20%26%20ventilation&topic=Ventilation%20systems

Edit: I can scan the magazine article and email it if you want.

[geoffm]

You are right - it is a fan in the attic. You coudl always DIY - get a 150mm centrifugal fan (Temperzone AXC150 or sim), a filter (Ipsco or some others) some insulated flexiduct and a grille and a thermostat.

[James Deuce]

It still costs the same to heat your house with DVS HRV etc as it does to run a heater...

.

That may be true, but the associated costs of dampness and mold more than offset the cost of running a positive pressure system.

Our power bill dropped from $300-$420 a month in Winter to $180-$250 after we installed the Drivaire, so I reckon it is cheaper than a bunch of heaters, plus I can look at the view and don't have to pay a man to take our verticals away and clean the mold off them every couple of months in the Winter.

[Paul in NZ]

Consumer looked into the various systems last year. Here's some free info from them.......

http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&docid=487&subcategory=Heating%20%26%20ventilation&topic=Ventilation%20systems

Edit: I can scan the magazine article and email it if you want.

Please do.. I'm interested now! I'll bet a hat full of farty arses that if his had come out on top he would have mentioned it eh?

[Gunner]

We do all the electrical work and sometimes installations for Hometech, which is the competition to the other brands, Hometech ones are cheaper than the rest and do the same if not better job (we have replaced DVS systems with Hometech systems in the past because they have not worked).

All the heaters do in them is try to keep the air temp that is pumping thru the system at a constant min temp, they should never be used instead of a heater or heatpump/aircon.

They all do the same thing in the end, keep the air circulating throughout the house. They are just a fan with a filter and maybe a heater and a thermostat to reduce the fan speed or cut in and out the heater, they are pretty simple really.

Customers that have had the Hometech systems installed have also had quotes from the HRV guys and all said that they were really pushy.

$250 for a filter sounds a bit high for a filter, I think you can get one from an electrical wholesaler for about $70, or make one your self by going to a fabric store and buying the filter material.

Me personally I would not put in a DVS,ACD,HRV system, I would put my money into a Heatpump with a heat transfer system. The heatpump acts as a dehumidifier as well as heating/cooling.


If you are thinking of getting one of these systems, shop around and ask your self "is this the best solution for my problem? or will something else do the same job"



Troy

[Drum]

I'll scan it tomorrow at work.

In reference to HRV they say: "Make sure you're getting the genuine product. The HRV system implies it's a heat exchanger. But it's only able to recover what heat is in the roofspace".

[Disco Dan]

If its hot - open window.
If its cold - close window.

Cost = FREE.

Far out... I should sell windows....:shutup:

[Drum]

..If you are thinking of getting one of these systems, shop around and ask your self "is this the best solution for my problem? or will something else do the same job"....

Actually, that pretty much sums up the Consumer article.

[Gunner]

Actually, that pretty much sums up the Consumer article.

And I didnt even read it.
Im not trying to sell the Hometech brand either just in case people were thinking that. Theres alot of choice out there now, so choose carefully as these products are not cheap.

[James Deuce]

We do all the electrical work and sometimes installations for Hometech, which is the competition to the other brands, Hometech ones are cheaper than the rest and do the same if not better job (we have replaced DVS systems with Hometech systems in the past because they have not worked).


I've seen two Hometech installations that did nothing, so I guess location, house size, and installation expertise make all the difference.

I'm supremely happy with the Drivaire system, but it took us two years to find what would work in our house and an installer who wasn't a BS merchant.

[avgas]

Something else will definitely do the job, but its if you can be arsed or not.
How many standard suspension setups work? How many people tune their own suspension?
Same thing really - at the end of the day you could sit down for a month an design the ultimate ventilation system......or you could just do what everyone else does and buy a bloody dvs system cos ya cant be arsed.

[Gunner]

I've seen two Hometech installations that did nothing, so I guess location, house size, and installation expertise make all the difference.

I'm supremely happy with the Drivaire system, but it took us two years to find what would work in our house and an installer who wasn't a BS merchant.

Thats why I would not put one of these systems in my place (unless I manage to perk one ;)), as I think there are far better options out there.
But whatever works for you.

[Crisis management]

Like Jim2 I'm impressed with the moisture control ability of these systems but remember that all it is doing is providing air from the outside / roof space at ambient moisture content and stuffing it into your building dipslacing the higher moisture content air inside. It is the same as opening a window, it just works all the time and maintains a constant flow.
DVS is well marketed but I was not impressed with the explanations....we used Condensation Control and changed a three storey house (house & seperate basement flat) from a damp, blurry windowed dwelling to moisture free (condensation at least) in 2 days. Other friends have used the same equipment and been similarly impressed, so thats a recommendation!

You need a decent fan, air filter and inline heater and some ducting. I considered a do it yourself version but ended up spending $3,300 and am happy with the installation and equipment.

It does not heat your house. The heater option is only to adjust the comfort level of the incoming air.
We also put in two heat pumps (1970's unisulated house) cause it really is like a fridge at times, but only use them in winter for heating. If your going to air condition you have to close the windows and doors....thats not my cup of tea.

If you want more info, PM me.

[Finn]

Just think, if our houses were built properly in the first place, we wouldn't need any of this ventilation shit. The connection with Amway is no coincidence. A group of failed Amway morons with garages full of shit decided to focus their energy on ventilation systems.

[shafty]

Different strokes for different folks, but remember that "Direct Sales" - ie In Home Selling, works on the basis of the Sales Guy getting a pretty commision for the Sale. He's been taught his sales pitch, and off he goes, giving up his evenings and weekends for a quick $250 (or whatever) per sale.

A good Kiwi Handy man could buy the parts seperately for a fraction of the cost. Others prefer the convenience of 1 company doing it and costing more.

I don't have a need for such a system.

[RC1]

we had a moisture master in akld same thing basically, we basically got it because we were concerned that the kids health was suffering from a dampish house , once installed the house became dry overnight ( i wouldnt have believed it until i saw it ) the kids stopped getting sick as often also as the filters took a lot of the pollen out of the air,i think it cost us @$1200 for the mid range model with heater ( just to take chill out of the night air in winter )and the filters only needed to be replaced once after two yrs (free ) i would recommend this brand :yes:

[Paul in NZ]

We do all the electrical work and sometimes installations for Hometech, Troy

So Troy - you fancy a little 'cash' job??


Customers that have had the Hometech systems installed have also had quotes from the HRV guys and all said that they were really pushy.

Pushy? Mate he was an utter arse that totally spat the dummy when I was not going to play his 'lets look through the round window today children' sales pitch... It was - an unusual experience shall we say? he really didn't know how to handle it when the customer pushed back...


If you are thinking of getting one of these systems, shop around and ask your self "is this the best solution for my problem? or will something else do the same job"Troy

Thinking of doing 'something' mate but I'll do the research first AND sus out the best deal. This guy was leading up to quite a price I reckon... For a box with a fan and two over priced filters. Fuck me - I've changed enough air cond filters in my life to know what they cost... Apparently he has 'special' ones... :yes: What a laugh really.. The kids thought it was funny but vicki... well... hmmm...

[Paul in NZ]

Just think, if our houses were built properly in the first place, we wouldn't need any of this ventilation shit. The connection with Amway is no coincidence. A group of failed Amway morons with garages full of shit decided to focus their energy on ventilation systems.

My house is modest and reasonably built Finn - pretty well designed it ourselves after the designer tried to sell us some ghey pastel plastered auckland chocolate box confection thing with no eaves to protect the tops of the walls and a stupid roof that was bound to leak. Bleugh!

We are looking for alternate systems to reduce energy consumption and provide better ventilation / heating as a side benifit.

[Crisis management]

Just think, if our houses were built properly in the first place, we wouldn't need any of this ventilation shit. The connection with Amway is no coincidence. A group of failed Amway morons with garages full of shit decided to focus their energy on ventilation systems.

While understanding your feelings about the state of the NZ construction industry also understand that we (generally) live in a maritime environment with a high level of humidity and ventilation is the only way to move humidity around. A sealed box containing humans producing 20 litres of moisture a day is going to get wet.
Either we design ventilation in to buildings or we add it later.....most of us have to do the latter.

[vifferman]

Meh.

For a little bit more, you can get yourself a decent airconditioning system.
Ours is going in this week.

Interestingly though, one of the guys who came to give us a quote (and who got the sale because he turned up, was honest, very helpful, and very thorough) did tell us that if we wanted to rid the house of moisture and the like it was important to open windows and get some fresh air in. Part of our problem at the moment is two sprogs who won't open their windows and curtains.

We used to have a large woodburner in the lounge and ripped it out because although it was very effective, it was too much work and mess for me (no-one else helped). We were going to replace it with gas heating, but the aircon is not much dearer to install and is cheaper to run, plus we can use it in the muggy D'Auckland summers as well.

Something I learned from Mr Aircon was that there is a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Electric both making aircon units, but almost entirely separately. There is some info sharing, but they're different companies.

[Drum]

Apologies, took me a while to get around to scanning the attached consumer article.

[Paul in NZ]

Thanks for that - ill digest it.