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Marmoot
18th June 2003, 18:15
Hi,

I've seen some riders crashed when riding in a large competitive group. That's not a very good sight, and gives quite a drag on the overall ride.

So, I wonder. How much do you feel pressured by this so-called "peer-pressure" on ride with a group? What about NEW group? Is it that bad, or are majority of bikers mature enough to fight the pressure and ride properly?

Redstar
18th June 2003, 18:48
I used to get that feeling and its a competitive urge thing.
fourtunately I got through my teens without hurt. but mainly because I was sort of concerned about my lack of ability and that lack of confidence meant I held back from total stupidity.
The scarryist experience was when 20 or so of us meet a similar number of dorks coming the other way and a country road.
half of us were on the wrong side doing speed and vis-versa 20 or so comming head on it was like 10 seconds of russian roulette and thankfully all 40 got lucky.
I worse of us are those who are fearless they make good racers If they live long enough.
your fear is the element that keeps you alive mate.
there are groups that take it easy.
I did get rear ended last year its the only time in 30,000klms that I got hit from behind and it was a fellow biker who was inline with me behind when I had to stop for a car crossing in front.
so now when I follow a bike I never follow dead in line but off to one side. just in case.

merv
18th June 2003, 18:57
I've seen a few crashes too, even by Ulysses dudes that weren't the quick ones of the group. The trick is to keep your cool and ride to your own limit not someone elses. I can't say I've ever felt pressured, if there really is someone faster I don't mind seeing them disappear into the distance. Obviously there are a few not mature enough to do this and they do come to grief occasionally. Keep your riding smooth and consistent. I find some people quite erratic - seem to go like hell early in a ride especially down the straights, but as the ride wears on and we're carving corners they can't keep up the pace. I tend to think today I'm cruising at a certain speed and I try and keep to that as much as I can slowing down as little as possible at the corners but not going over it on the straights either. This works for me, is easy on the bike and the gas consumption and a lot of people have trouble keeping up if they are the hard on hard off kind of riders. Always think ahead, brake and change gear at the right time, not after you've overcooked a corner. Also think ahead with your passing manoevres. If you do all that the erratic people soon disappear behind you.

MikeL
18th June 2003, 19:45
The pressure is always there to some extent even though you won't always admit it to yourself. It's obviously an ego thing, and I'm pretty sure it is behind many if not most crashes during group rides. In a big group like Ulysses the faster riders (usually a minority) can do their own thing and race ahead. In a smaller group the slowest rider can often feel that he/she is a drag on the rest. You have to come to terms with it and work out your priorities. Mine is staying on the bike.:niceone:

babyB
18th June 2003, 20:12
i have felt the pressure when joining a new group/rider, but dont sircome to it.

i was taught right from the start that you ride within your limitations/ comfort zone and stay in it......in my group you all ways waited for the slow ones to catch up.  if they chose to go for a blat i found them waiting on the side of the road some where... mind you in the early days i had them backtracking once or twice to find me too.lol

i will not be pushed by other riders.  & try to look after new riders

on the race track i still dont care if im lapped several times ,but i will test my limitations there if/ when i so choose . and to enjoy it

live to ride and ride to live

wkid_one
19th June 2003, 12:25
It is the old confidence exceeding capability argument.  Most riders following someone will crash as they start to ride off the other persons bike - braking when they brake and taking their lines etc - rather than riding how they would naturally ride.  There is also the fear of being seen to 'hold up' traffic....

My advice - before you ride in a group - fold your wing mirrors in and let the person behind you make the pass without you worrying about where he is.  Also, focus on your own ride - you need to be aware of when the person in front of you in braking - but focus on the corner not their bike.

This is a common learner mistake - I know - I did it and tore my shoulder 6 inches out of joint.

750Y
19th June 2003, 13:35
tore my shoulder 6 inches out of joint.
ouch! that had to hurt. there's enough incentive for me to ride my own ride if ever in a group.
If You're not a rider used to a group situation there is going to be some initial confusion and a learning curve. I guess the initial natural reaction is to try to stay with the group. for most, fear will be all they need to pull them back from the fast guys, but how are You gonna learn from the faster guys if You can't even see them? even if You crash You may have passed Your previous confidence limit 10 corners earlier and breifly explored a new level of riding & You are now a bit better rider having pushed your boundaries. It must be really confidence inspiring to see guys in front of You riding well. I can see why guys crash and i don't think it's ego so much as enthusiasm.

Slim
19th June 2003, 14:02
I think I've always had a clear advantage because I'm a: female, and b: have always been more responsible than my years would indicate. ;)

It also helps that my first bike was a GB250 and I was many years behind my friends in both experience and size-of-bike, so it was quite reasonable that I would always be the last to our destination.

But I had good friends, who always made sure everyone knew where we were going & where we'd meet up, and then they'd wait for everyone to arrive before heading off other places.

I've been on a couple of the Boyd Honda rides and usually find myself somewhere in the middle, riding on my own. :whistle:

I've ridden with other groups that aren't as considerate, and they only get the one chance - if they stuff it up on the "looking out for your riding partners" front, then I won't ride with them again.

I prefer to ride alone, but it's nice to meet up with new people and have someone to share a laugh with at the smoke/fuel/food stops for a change.

:)

karbonblack
19th June 2003, 14:17
Never really thought too much about peer pressure, but when I got one of the first GSXR1000's early in 2001 it really hit me. Everyone knew about them, as the magazines at the time were getting off on this hot new bike. I was OK riding alone because I never went beyond my comfort level, but when I was riding with mates, I found myself doing 250kph wheelstands down the motorway.

I managed to survive the experience but I think there was an element of luck in the outcome.

SPman
19th June 2003, 17:27
I personally like sitting well back behind the front group,- by myself - and far enough away from them to not get sucked in on corners etc. Then I can ride my own ride but still be in the group - its fun playing catchies.....:)

Andrew
19th June 2003, 23:13
Peer pressure can be quite dangerous for someone like me whos young and has only been riding for 8 months.

My personal belief is to just 'amble' along at my own pace and only ride with those that can accept the fact that I'm learning and that I will be slow! :)

But most guys at kiwibiker are cool about this so 99% of the time its no issue.

Antallica
20th June 2003, 06:41
Peer pressure is bad, but I'm more interested in getting my ass round those corners, rather than what some idiot thinks of me and my riding.

Hey Andrew, give you a race ;) :D

What?
20th June 2003, 12:41
Good, sensible attitudes, Antallica and Andrew.:niceone:

I generally ride alone, but when I do ride with a group of my friends, it seems we collectively travel slower than we would individually. Interesting...

But then there was the trip home from Manfeild (quite) a few years back when I tagged along with a group of guys I did not know, and the average cruising speed was between 150 & 180. I didn't feel pressured to ride at that speed, but I wasn't going to slow down, either!:D

bluninja
20th June 2003, 13:57
The only pressure I find, is when people are queued up behind me (happens often), usually at blind twisty bends. I always want them to get the foot around me or back off. I've had one novice follow me into corners in my slipstream (learning my lines??), and I stopped on the straight so he could go past. The next rider on a fireblade he tagged onto and he went into the bend right behind him, far too hot and ended up surfing his ZX6 around the armco with his foot trapped between bike and barrier.

My preference is to get to a safe spot (as considered by me) and wave them past. I don't ride any harder, but it does distract me; not enough to consider riding with my mirrors bent in.

TTFN

Coldkiwi
20th June 2003, 17:35
I think a major factor in group riding crashes (probably next to ego) is the temptation to watch the bike in front of you. I noticed myself doing this last year before it was pointed out to me and since then I try/have to make a concious effort not to do it and watch the corners.

There is some advantage in having a bike in front of you to have a guage of how tight the corner is going to become but I think watching that should be secondary to watching the corners shape, camber, surface etc.

if you don't already conciously watch the road instead of the bike, TRY it and see the difference.. although beware that you'll probably end up watching the bike again after 30 seconds! I find it really helps and if the bike in front buggers up a corner, it'll mean you're less likely to follow. Same applies to the track.. watch the guy go down and you'll either hit him or crash too

wkid_one
23rd June 2003, 08:13
I think there are a couple of things to remember...everyone has been a learner at some stage so knows what it is like...most people you ride with, no matter how experienced, are more concerned that you just get to the destination - not how long it takes you.  The point of the ride is to enjoy yourself - and if that means doing 50-75% of speed of the fastest guys so be it - so long as you get there with a smile on your face.

If you really want to learn - ask an experienced rider to slow down and 'show you the road' - rather than you trying to speed up to their pace - most will be more than obliging to help someone ride - and this doesn't put you out of your comfort zone.  KiwiDan did this for me - gradually increasing the speed - worked wonders for me.

Coldkiwi
23rd June 2003, 12:44
good call. Again, it comes down to having a small enough ego to ask someone to give you a hand.. not to try and be The Man and keep up when you don't have the skills.

SPman
23rd June 2003, 17:41
No matter how good you think you are - there is ALWAYS someone out there better than you :argh:

Its also true that the more you learn, the less you realise you knew, so there is no shame in taking it carefully and gradually building up your skills, at your own pace. On the road, there is no imperative at all to go fast, (quite the opposite of course).Smooth is better. Real speed comes from a progression of smooth.

wkid_one
24th June 2003, 22:57
I agree SP - the best way to get quick is to be smooth....following someone is great - provided they are not a way better rider than you and you get pulled in to a situation you can't handle unexpectedly.  However following a rider who knows you are there is quite beneficial.

I do find swinging the mirrors in helps as it means you aren't riding for the riders behind you either....provided of course you trust the riders you are riding with.

 The other thing is - riding fast isn't about using more of the throttle - but less of the brake.....most speed is gained in the corner not the straight....it is about maintaining good speed in the corner - rather than braking hard - tottling around - and accelerating hard.  Plus - all the thrill of riding is leaning over. 

Antallica
24th June 2003, 23:24
Originally posted by wkid_one
all the thrill of riding is leaning over ;)



Except for in the wet, as I just so happened to discover once again this morning when going through an intersection. Rear slid me right through it... was quite fun actually :D

SPman
24th June 2003, 23:36
Originally posted by wkid_one

 The other thing is - riding fast isn't about using more of the throttle - but less of the brake.....most speed is gained in the corner not the straight....it is about maintaining good speed in the corner - rather than braking hard - tottling around - and accelerating hard.  Plus - all the thrill of riding is leaning over. 

Hence the advantage of learning on smaller, lower powered bikes that need momentum to cover ground at a reasonable rate, rather than power - point squirt.

Dave
25th June 2003, 10:25
What do you mean-Antallica quote:
Except for in the wet,
I've now gone through the knees of my wet weather gear onto my knee sliders-Got a photo of it too.-Just need to figure out how to scan it in.

Coldkiwi
25th June 2003, 12:23
on race cut wets on the track?

I never go near the edge of my tyres in the wet (always on main roads.. why would I go long distance riding or on the track in the rain?) because there is inevitably a nasty pool of oil or white line or pothole disguised as puddle waiting for me and if I'm already at the edge i'd be toast!

The design philosophy of the new Pirelli Diablos makes sense to me because they've removed a lot of tread from the edges as that part of the tyre is simply never used in the wet on the road.

As for mirrors... I consider it other peoples problem to get past me so I never look in the mirrors in the twisties so no need to fold them in.Different story on the track though. 

Besides, on the road it just means when you do want to see if you have everyone when you get to the otherside of the hill or whatever, you have to dick around with crossed over arms to if you want to keep moving while you straighten the right mirror out! that'd be a good way to crash :)

 

Duke of Rogan
25th June 2003, 12:56
Originally posted by SPman
Hence the advantage of learning on smaller, lower powered bikes that need momentum to cover ground at a reasonable rate, rather than power - point squirt.

yup, exactly why I choose my 2nd bike (post 250cc) to be a 600cc (only rated at 55kw), espically after not riding for about 4 years. And I choose a nice and light bike to develop my skills on.

I had my first kiwi-biker group ride on Sat just been, and didnt feel pressured, even when leading, although I can't see much in my side mirrors at the best of times.

Antallica
26th June 2003, 06:49
Originally posted by Dave
What do you mean-Antallica quote:
Except for in the wet,
I've now gone through the knees of my wet weather gear onto my knee sliders-Got a photo of it too.-Just need to figure out how to scan it in.

It had rained that night, I was taking my usual corner down the road. Leaned a bit much and the back wheel was sliding behind me. As for the angle I was in, I was nowhere near having my knee down. Doesn't take much to slide this baby with these thin tyres.

But in saying that, I loved the slide anyway :D

Andrew
26th June 2003, 13:20
True, half the time I'm too scared to lean my bike cos i could feel the back tyre start to slide out. Just need a bigger bike with more weight and more tyre!!

Duke of Rogan
26th June 2003, 14:42
I sat my full license test on a work-mates RGV150 and after I passed and was returning to work, I recall sliding the back wheel out on a moderate corner in the dry! :eek5:
can't you fit a wider/fatter rear tyre to those things?

although it must be a great way to get the heart racing at 50km/h

Antallica
26th June 2003, 16:26
You could get a fatter tyre on there but the forks would hinder it unless you mod them. I'm desperate to get fat tyres on my baby.

georgedubyabush
26th June 2003, 18:55
since you were going through an intersection, your rear may have just hit a painted line. my zxr250 squirmes off of wet painted lines fairly often. i do need new tyres though.:o

Antallica
26th June 2003, 20:07
Nah, no markers on that part of the turnoff. Just that real 'slippery when wet' tar-seal.

Coldkiwi
27th June 2003, 12:33
Originally posted by georgedubyabush
since you were going through an intersection, your rear may have just hit a painted line. my zxr250 squirmes off of wet painted lines fairly often. i do need new tyres though.:o

its not just ZXR 250's! any bike will do that on wet slippery paint (or the tar used to seal cracks in crappy NZ roads).. my advice is only try crossing thick lines of it at a pretty obtuse angle (like railway tracks) or you'll find your tyres rolling right off it everytime.

I would also be wary of fitting larger than normal tyres to a bike (regardless of cc rating). the suspension, drive chain and geometry of the bike are all designed with a certain tyre height and profile in mind so you could easily make it worse instead of better with a poor choice. if you are set on doing it, get it done at a well known reputable motorcycle tyre store (car tyre stores know NOTHING) and be sure theya pprove the selection

georgedubyabush
27th June 2003, 21:30
yeah, im getting pretty used to that tactic on these Far North roads.

yesterday I had to take some pretty evasive action to avoid a mound of clay running across the road. A digger left it round a blind corner when it crawled across the tarseal. still, guess i could've met the digger instead.:argh:

Plenty of wandering stock and horses on my drive or ride to work too. And hordes of wandering stray dogs. They seem to love the sound of a screaming 250.

The real worry however is the unlicenced drivers and the unroadworthy cars. My last car was written off on the hill just North of Moerewa when a 14 year old pulled across my path out of a hidden driveway in a landcruiser without looking.:angry2: