Nationals: Where the hell were ya?!

[slowpoke]

Having been out of the country for quite a few years this series was my first chance to get up close and personal with the top echelon of NZ Road Racing at the Nats.

First impressions I had as I walked into Manfeild:
1) where are all the racers?
2) where are all the spectators?
3) does lack of the former cause the lack of the latter?

Seriously, at the Vic Club meeting I managed to compete (poorly) at there were dirty tricks a plenty trying to secure a stable/pit box at sparrows fart in the morning whereas at the Nats they were three quarters empty at lunchtime, even allowing for a few more stand alone porta-shade style efforts. Whats with that?

Surely clubs should be encouraging entries to fill the grids, and surely competitors should want to be showing THEIR wares and their SPONSORS wares on the big stage? So where was everybody? And how do you go from tens of thousands of people at the Battle of the Streets to measely hundreds of people at the National series?

13-15 entries in the big bangers was a pretty poor effort I reckon. If WE can't be bothered showing up why would we expect any coverage from TV etc?

Ok, the Nationals may sound a bit daunting, so let's run a Clubmans' class to get a few bikes out there and give a stepping stone to the big show....but no, we run bloody go karts for a few demo laps instead. Cool as they are, they didn't race, and added nothing to the day.

I'm at a bit of a loss actually. Sam Smith was an obvious stand out, and Jay Lawrence had his moments, but who else looked like stepping in to fill the shoes of Ray Clee, Shaun Harris, Brian Bernard, Tony Rees etc? There's the old duo of Stroudy and Shirriffs then there's a long way back to Hayden Fitzgerald and an equally long way back to the rest.

Full credit to those who turned up and gave their all, but the question has to be asked: is NZ road racing at it's lowest ebb?

[Motu]

You want to know why there are no spectators? It's as boring as fuck,I'd rather ride my bike than watch unknowns on unknown bikes anominously go around a track where I can't get to a corner to watch the action.That's why they turn up to the street races in droves - up close with the riders and bikes...inches from the bikes as they go past.Road racing on the track is boring these days....but it didn't use to be.....

[Deano]

Slowpoke - are you interested in competing at the Cliffhanger Hillclimb (or marshalling/assisting perhaps) ? - the answer to your question may be partly in there. I'm not having a dig at you personally here, just raising a point.

There does seem to be an apathy about road racing. The hillclimb only managed 15 entries last year and the event was in danger of slipping away.

It's often a struggle to get marshals/assistants (just ask the Vic Club), and we were very lucky that the sprints were well supported in both areas.

Sponsors ? Even harder to get on board.

[avgas]

It too bloody expensive to race - with the exceptions of buckets. Its almost comparable to the speeding tickets you could get.

[Toast]

Where was I for the Nationals race meets? Working, in the hope that I can get enough money to buy time on the bike this year, and get out of debt enough to do the Nationals next year. Can't wait :niceone:

[Macktheknife]

Where was I?
In the stands, on the field, at all the corners and the back straight, at the hairpin and at the pits. I was there, in the thick of it and loving it.
Motu, actually you can get to the corners at Puke, I did and so did lots of others, and it was cool to be right next to the track as the riders went by at what seemed like mach3.
But you are correct in saying that not many went, it was a disappointing turnout from the fans I thought.

[kickingzebra]

i was surveying the track from the comfort of the telefonibus

[slowpoke]

Slowpoke - are you interested in competing at the Cliffhanger Hillclimb (or marshalling/assisting perhaps) ? - the answer to your question may be partly in there. I'm not having a dig at you personally here, just raising a point.

There does seem to be an apathy about road racing. The hillclimb only managed 15 entries last year and the event was in danger of slipping away.

It's often a struggle to get marshals/assistants (just ask the Vic Club), and we were very lucky that the sprints were well supported in both areas.

Sponsors ? Even harder to get on board.

No worries Deano, I know where you are coming from. Yup, I've already entered for the Cliffhanger...and I'm already nervous!!

I actually made enquiries about a Clubman's event (I haven't done enough events to enter the Nat's races) at Manfeild only to find that they preferred a karting demo to wannabe racers getting wild and wobbly confusing their talents with their aspirations. I was even going to do a Contiki/Racing tour of the South Island Nat's rounds (those that ran a Clubman's class) until my bike decided to go "Not tonight dear, I've got a headache..." with a rooted cylinder head.

As for marshalling I've given it a go when I was back in Oz, and it is partly responsible for making me want to leap the barrier and have a go myself, it really is the best seat in the house and I highly recommend it to anyone.

15 entries for the hillclimb? It's such a bloody shame. This place (NZ in general and the 'rapa in particular) is biking heaven and that an event like this is even being run (thanks to people like Deano and co) is just awesome. There's definitely nothing like it in Western Australia and probably nothing like it in all of Oz. The views are fantastic, the location (complete with lake, for chrissakes) is perfect and no limits access to 20 something blissful corners is bloody hard to beat in this day and age. I've got my sights firmly set on being tail end charlie but any competition for that coveted spot would be warmly welcomed.

I don't mean to sound like a whiny bitch (although it IS coming up to that time of the month...) I'm just, er, kinda confused I guess. Compared to anything I've seen or heard of the Nat's and Cliffhanger are incredibly accessible, comparatively cheap (check out the price of a track day at Brands Hatch or Phillip Island or the mileage involved in following the series around the States or Oz), yet struggle for patronage.

We don't seem to realise how good we've got it...but how do you change that perception?

[skelstar]

I'm entering too SPoke. If I can do it anyone can. Its going to be fun just watching all the shit being slung.

[svs]

We don't seem to realise how good we've got it...but how do you change that perception?

if you have any stunning ideas let us, or MNZ know! i know we've got it good and cheap (as an ex-uk racer) but everyone over here winges about the cost!

are the club races too cheap? we keep the cost down as much as we can - and don't make any profit on the winter series, then when it comes to the nationals with a $200 entry fee people pull out.

as for the karts. well enough said, but they didn't listen to us (should run Clubmans or Streetstock we said) and the event was run by manfeild promotions - who like cars.

if we can make the racing less boring for the spectators then we will, but you got all sorts of safety stuff these days, and you ain't going to be banging fairings (much :) ) at club level - people gotta learn somewhere. The nats at manfeild were good for spectating. There were a bundle of close battles both at the front and further back in the field - and you can see the whole track at manfeild. and you aint going to get the sponsors until you start reaching people.

Personally i get to every race meet i can, whether it be club, amateur or professional. I'd prefer to be there than stuck in front of a tv. but that doesn't seem to be the done thing these days.

[Ivan]

yip I agree with you SVS,

So many people winge about costs racing is not cheap but if you want to do it the costs dont mean much.


Costsdont mean much when you come off the track buzzing because you just had the best race you feel means so much.


Go the Winter Series

[Sketchy_Racer]

I was there. #47 RS125.

I find it odd that you seem to write off the guys in the 125GP, and other classes as up and rising talent.

We have to start somewhere, And where do you think Jay and Sam came from? yep you guessed it.

pffft... 600s and 1000s... way overated. BRING BACK 250GP!!! Then there would be some racing.

No more boggy 'sports' bikes with sticky tyres. how about some race bred machines!

as fast as the 600s and 1000s are, i find them kinda boring to watch. Not very often is there REALLY REALLY close racing. and when there is, someone normaly crashes...

rant over

[svs]

go the 125's! nice to see some proper race bikes out there. close racing and carrying the corner speed.
but from a spectator point of view the soggy 600's and superbikes sliding and weaving look better from the sidelines.

[Goblin]

Costs dont mean much when you come off the track buzzing because you just had the best race you feel means so much.Too true!


I was there. #47 RS125.

I find it odd that you seem to write off the guys in the 125GP, and other classes as up and rising talent.

We have to start somewhere, And where do you think Jay and Sam came from? yep you guessed it.I thoroughly enjoyed watching you guys at Manfield. Missed you at Puke though. You're right Glen, the 125 and 250GP are true racing at it's best. Bring back the 250's! 600 supersport and Superbike classes are more about how much money one can pump into a bike whereas the 125's are all about rider ability and I like to see that more.

MNZ could also consider a Motard class at a national level as they attract a huge spectator following in the street circuits and club scene.

I was disappointed at how few racers and spectators were at Puke. Maybe Taupo would be a better option for spectator viewing and rider saftey.

[oyster]

At the Nationals you have 3 types. The older ones who developed in the days of popular 250 proddy and F3 where the playing feild was relatively level.
Many have had great careers but every year a few more retire. Then you have the no attachment / no kids give it all types who exercise their egos in a great and exciting sport. But because they never developed at an age that gave them real skill, they go well but never quite the top, and move on after a few years when the thrill fades, or the mortage / cost of raising a family catches up. Then finally the young ones, who have made it a passion while still at school. They really are the future, they have the time, developing physical and mental stages ideally suited to later skill at the highest level.
To get money, spectators and sponsors you need riders first, not the other way round. So, at present, it's the responsibilty of the clubs and senior riders to regenerate the sport, recruiting, training and encouraging youth.
We're getting there, the original Invercargill Junior programme feilded 6 teenage riders in the nats last year. This year year 6 of the top ten 125GP riders were teenagers. And who were the New Zealanders on the 600TT podium? Teenagers. Andrew and Craig had too look on from 4th and 5th.
And where did these teenagers come from? 125GP of course. Lets get to work before there's nothing left. The future is bright, but it'll take a lot of work, and probably 5 years of it. Get to it.

[Maido]

Not to be negative to your suggestions but you are flogging a dead horse on the 250 issue, it won't happen.
Sure they are a super class (just ask jay) but fact is they are being fazed out (and the class will end up like f3 did a few years back, everyone on 20 year old machinery)
also, for the majority, a 600 means change the oil between the races, not rebuild an entire engine.


600 supersport and Superbike classes are more about how much money one can pump into a bike whereas the 125's are all about rider ability and I like to see that more.
This is such a typical response, the bikes are bigger and faster so they cost more yes, but if you do the maths, it isn't that much of a price difference compared to a similar class (ie 250's vs 600's, and alot cheaper than 500's vs 1000's!!), you are comparing mini's with v8 supercars.
Also, (this is in no way a dig at the 125 guys, so please don't take it personally!!!) about the rider ability thing, not to be rude and i know their equipment wouldn't have been better because it is all about rider ability [insert sarcasm emoticon!!], but every year for about the last 3-4 years we have had special overseas riders in this class come over and DOMINATE 125's (midge, jackson whats his handle etc), where as kiwis routinely beat good over seas riders in the proddy classes. does this mean the proddy riders have more "rider ability"???


pffft... 600s and 1000s... way overated. BRING BACK 250GP!!! Then there would be some racing
i think it is usually the guy's riding the bikes that make for close racing not the bikes size or stature (look at the 150's).

It is funny, I used to have the same opinion back when I first started, I thought the big classes were all about money and the riders we not as good, then I rode these bikes, and found that the level is DEFINATELY higher, i used to routinly get middle to low top ten in f3, even won races in 250, but have to work my ass off to finish top ten in 600 (ask andy evans if he thinks 600 races are easier!!)
You have to know your craft alot better and respect them because they can bite very hard, and anyone who can master them is truely a great rider.

finished with my rant, sorry to all i offended, so on a more positive note...
I think that a super stock 1000 or 600 class run on the same grid in conjunction with the superbike/sport grid would be great, especially for the guys who don't have access to engine builders etc. A separate championship inside the class like they do all round the world would be good and it would lead to bigger fields as not every one wants to race in the same "class" as the top guys but in the same "field" where they can get close up to the action and see how they can make up the time. (just as the stock sv class would do in F3)

I just read through my thread, i don't actually think it makes sense so i am prepared to be flammed and torn to shreds, happy hunting!!:scooter:

[oyster]

It's definitely a stairway. In terms of cost, and sometimes ability.
So if you start in Miniature Road Race, and you're really good, you'll join the Streetstock ranks about half way up, not at the bottom. And when you break lap records in Streetstock, consistently, you'll be halfway up the 125GP ranks. And so on till you're on a Superbike. As you go up, the cost and complexity goes up with it, so if you're patient and canny, you'll make sure you "complete your apprenticeship" in each class on your way. Then it's way easier on the pocket and the body. When people start too high up the ladder, the bike and the class is often too far above their head, so in a short time they go faster and faster till they crash a lot while only doing pretty ordinary lap times. Then they give up. The crucial class is 125GP. Steve Ward, as nearly a middle aged man, said it took him 6 years to learn to ride one. But some of his lap records still stand, set on his "ancient" 1995 model RS 125 in spite of visits to NZ by the featherweight hotshots from overseas with their superfast kitted gear.

The moral. If you want to ride for fun, ride what you like. If you want to be the best rider you'll ever be, at the lowest cost, physically and financially, then take the time to "climb the ladder"

[CM2005]

Hmmm.. I didn't know they binned the 250's and last time i went to puke 800km round trip, it was to see the classics.. I'm building a bucket to get into it, so that should be cheap. Street Racing will always be more popular, we just need more circuits on the Calendar... I dunno!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Not to be negative to your suggestions but you are flogging a dead horse on the 250 issue, it won't happen.
Sure they are a super class (just ask jay) but fact is they are being fazed out (and the class will end up like f3 did a few years back, everyone on 20 year old machinery)
also, for the majority, a 600 means change the oil between the races, not rebuild an entire engine.

sure there aren't many 250s around now, but yes you can still buy them new, Honda, yamaha, aprilla. so on.
Being fazed out?, its not that they are being fazed out, its that SO many people have the mindset you have. "too much maintainance" "engine rebuilds cost too much"

Well for maintanance, Im sure every top 5 600 or 1000 has had a full pull down, and thousands spent on makeing it go fast. Sure you only have to replace oil after each race meet, but when it finally goes bang (or a gearbox gives up eh jay) It makes a mess.
Lets say you blow a piston. that'll be New barrels, new head, probably new cases, and new crank. X4! an easy 2-3g?
Do that on a 250gp bike.. maybe 500-1000$$
Same with crash damage.. Highside a 600.. you'll probably bend a frame, forks.. swingarm....
Do the same on a 250, you'll have to be really trying hard to even bend the forks. Not saying it doesnt happpen, just alot less likely.

And the ease of maintainance on a GP bike, i can probably change a piston faster than you could do a oil change.

Are the people (racers, and mechs) really too dumb to spin a spanner? heck i can do it, anyone can


Also, (this is in no way a dig at the 125 guys, so please don't take it personally!!!) about the rider ability thing, not to be rude and i know their equipment wouldn't have been better because it is all about rider ability [insert sarcasm emoticon!!], but every year for about the last 3-4 years we have had special overseas riders in this class come over and DOMINATE 125's (midge, jackson whats his handle etc), where as kiwis routinely beat good over seas riders in the proddy classes. does this mean the proddy riders have more "rider ability"???


Yeah, so we got beaten by aussies.
But have you compared the bikes?? the weight of the riders? the amount of track time? the amount of backing? the 'fantastic' aussies have had?

and yes the aussies come kick our arses in proddy classes to. I do remeber a robbie bugden completly dominating and kickin our arse at certain tracks.

There is a reason that they do still run 125gp and 250gp in motoGP.
As oyster mentions, its all a ladder, and you cant miss any steps if you want to get to the top.

Its just ashame that so many young NZ racers have it stuck in thier mind, that 600s and 1000s are the best.

Logical sense would say that 125s and 250s would be the class to be in if you ever want to get to the top (as in world)

Each to thier own, thats just my opinion

[JayRacer37]

Being fazed out?, its not that they are being fazed out, its that SO many people have the mindset you have. "too much maintainance" "engine rebuilds cost too much"

Its just ashame that so many young NZ racers have it stuck in thier mind, that 600s and 1000s are the best.

Logical sense would say that 125s and 250s would be the class to be in if you ever want to get to the top (as in world)



Yeah, they are being fazed out. There isn't many places running a top level national 250GP class any more....and with the worldwide numbers dwindeling in favor of production classes, thats guna keep going. And, even though in NZ it may be cheaper too run a 125 or even a 250, you take that racing serious, out of the country, and you are very rapidly going to rack up more than it would cost to run a 600m just on mantaince, before you event ry and hotrod that 125 or 250 to make it compeditive.

It's not that young NZ racers have it "stuck in their mind" that 600 or supers is best, its that in NZ those are the classes that get recognised, also worldwide, you see the backgrounds people are coming from, its not 125 anymore, its production based racing (John Hopkins, Chris Vermeulen, Nicky Hayden, Colin Edwards, etc...and thats just MotoGP class). If you take a country, say, the States, name a GP class rider over there. a-huh...600 od Superbike?? try it for Britan, Aussie....the focus is now on production racing. At international level, production racing is the level that its easier to break into...try even getting a world 125GP bike to race, let alone how much money you would have to bring.

"Logical sence" now see's 600 od supers as the classes to be in as a jump to a world level championship bud, ESPESSIALLY from countries like NZ or AUS.

[Ivan]

go the 125's! nice to see some proper race bikes out there. close racing and carrying the corner speed.
but from a spectator point of view the soggy 600's and superbikes sliding and weaving look better from the sidelines.

Yip you need to try one out Phil would suit you:innocent:
Dont play with that 600 get a real bike


Yip and I agree with Glen RG100!! alot of people seem to cut 125 GP off If you look the majority of us are young guys out there doing it and we start somewere Sam didnt start on a 600 neither did Jay. They raced 125's and some of us are goign to end up being Sam and Jays too Look at Young Jackson and Blake Leigh Smith who rode here last Nats. He raced the final 4 rounds in 125 GP world championship for KTM

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah, they are being fazed out. There isn't many places running a top level national 250GP class any more....and with the worldwide numbers dwindeling in favor of production classes, thats guna keep going.

I still beg to differ.

Its not that the 'man' is trying to faze them out, it's just that they have become such a minority, that many places wont run a class for the because there just isn't enough of them. Which is fair enough too.

"in favor of production classes"

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.


And, even though in NZ it may be cheaper too run a 125 or even a 250, you take that racing serious, out of the country, and you are very rapidly going to rack up more than it would cost to run a 600m just on mantaince, before you event ry and hotrod that 125 or 250 to make it compeditive.

So taking a 125 or 250 international becomes more expensive, but a production class stays the same? I doubt it, but i could be wrong.


It's not that young NZ racers have it "stuck in their mind" that 600 or supers is best, its that in NZ those are the classes that get recognised, also worldwide, you see the backgrounds people are coming from, its not 125 anymore, its production based racing (John Hopkins, Chris Vermeulen, Nicky Hayden, Colin Edwards, etc...and thats just MotoGP class). If you take a country, say, the States, name a GP class rider over there. a-huh...600 od Superbike?? try it for Britan, Aussie....the focus is now on production racing. At international level, production racing is the level that its easier to break into...try even getting a world 125GP bike to race, let alone how much money you would have to bring.


I mis-communicated myself before with that statement.

It's that alot of inexperienced riders are either jumping straight into 600s and 1000s, without taking the steps required to build themselfs as a rider. Sure some people just want to race, but some people have hopes and ambitions of going furthur than just NZ, and im really struggling to see how they can do it without the proper training from lower down classes.

And once again, these people with lack of experience jump on 600s or supers, and what would ya know, they crash lots, have a huge scare, then bugger off. Which is a shame, because it drives people away from our sport, and drives away people that may have serious skill, they just need to learn how to use it.

So the move to production racing is becoming the class to move to, but IMO the 125 - 250 training ground is still a critical part of developing skill.

rambling over

[sidecar bob]

Having been out of the country for quite a few years this series was my first chance to get up close and personal with the top echelon of NZ Road Racing at the Nats.

First impressions I had as I walked into Manfeild:
1) where are all the racers?
2) where are all the spectators?
3) does lack of the former cause the lack of the latter?

Seriously, at the Vic Club meeting I managed to compete (poorly) at there were dirty tricks a plenty trying to secure a stable/pit box at sparrows fart in the morning whereas at the Nats they were three quarters empty at lunchtime, even allowing for a few more stand alone porta-shade style efforts. Whats with that?

Surely clubs should be encouraging entries to fill the grids, and surely competitors should want to be showing THEIR wares and their SPONSORS wares on the big stage? So where was everybody? And how do you go from tens of thousands of people at the Battle of the Streets to measely hundreds of people at the National series?

13-15 entries in the big bangers was a pretty poor effort I reckon. If WE can't be bothered showing up why would we expect any coverage from TV etc?

Ok, the Nationals may sound a bit daunting, so let's run a Clubmans' class to get a few bikes out there and give a stepping stone to the big show....but no, we run bloody go karts for a few demo laps instead. Cool as they are, they didn't race, and added nothing to the day.

I'm at a bit of a loss actually. Sam Smith was an obvious stand out, and Jay Lawrence had his moments, but who else looked like stepping in to fill the shoes of Ray Clee, Shaun Harris, Brian Bernard, Tony Rees etc? There's the old duo of Stroudy and Shirriffs then there's a long way back to Hayden Fitzgerald and an equally long way back to the rest.

Full credit to those who turned up and gave their all, but the question has to be asked: is NZ road racing at it's lowest ebb?


Tha reason that Manfield was dead is because there was a sound of thunder meeting a Ruapuna the same weekend.(great organisation someone)
As a result a number of prominent Ducati's & Aprilias were missing from the entire national points rounds, the logic being that if you are going to miss a round (because you are competing at s.o.t) then you will be at a severe points disadvantage at the end, making the whole exercise pointless.
As a result, the biggest percentage of spectators, Harley, Duke & other non Jap brand riders are conspicuous by there absence.
If MNZ re introduce BEARS to their national championship points rounds, the spectators will quadruple instantly.

[Two Smoker]

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.

The 125's and 250's are being fazed out mainly due to the California and Euro emmisions standard...

Also what wins on race day sells on monday... How many gp bikes can you rides on the road??? People like the mainstream racing (600's and 1000's) due to the fact that they can ride THOSE bikes (somewhat detuned) on the road... And where there is a large fan base, there is a large sponser base, where there is lots of money...

I personally think that 125's is a great class... But as Sam and Jay have shown jumping from a 125 to a 600 isnt that hard...

[Sketchy_Racer]

The 125's and 250's are being fazed out mainly due to the California and Euro emmisions standard...

Also what wins on race day sells on monday... How many gp bikes can you rides on the road??? People like the mainstream racing (600's and 1000's) due to the fact that they can ride THOSE bikes (somewhat detuned) on the road... And where there is a large fan base, there is a large sponser base, where there is lots of money...

I personally think that 125's is a great class... But as Sam and Jay have shown jumping from a 125 to a 600 isnt that hard...

Nicely put Chris.

So what that says is that the motorcycle enthusiasts these days don't care if there is some really good racing, they care more for the fact that "ohh wow i must look cool like them when i ride my 'gsxrcbryzfplasticfantastic' "

Maybe thats why racing spectating in NZ is dying, is because when people go to races, its not interesting, because they are just seeing bikes they see on the road everyday (and in thier garage)

I also beleive that going from 125s - 600s is fine. But going from a few track days, or a season of 150s streetstock or the likes to 600s isnt a smart move.

So many theories... It's all rather fustrating

[JayRacer37]

"in favor of production classes"

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.


Cause its easier to buy a production bike, and you can buy a new one much more simply than a new GP bike...they arn't readily avalible, and some people want only a new bike.



So taking a 125 or 250 international becomes more expensive, but a production class stays the same? I doubt it, but i could be wrong.

Yea, essentially prices rise in a 250 or 125 as you maintain it more on the edge, parts are harder to get and more expensive cause there kit, rebuilds more frequently, and how much do u rekon ud pay to buy or lease a compeditive 250?? remeber Ant West had to bring $1 MILLION to LEASE a year old ex factory 250 Aprillia...unsuprisingly, he couldn't do it.
And a 600 cost is still going to stay similar...as there just road parts, we are already using the same equpiment as world SS in stuff like pipes, shocks (well, Sam and Craig anyway) and you arn't able to buy stuff like shit-hot forks, huge engine mods and stuff. You can buy to own a Ten Kate Honda CBR600 in world spec for only $75,000-ish. thats cheap compared to gp's. and the class entry level is much closer. you can be a private 600 and be there, ain't guna happen on a 125 or 250, no matter how good you are...and that is shown up here with the intenational riders that come over and ride good bikes. When Midge was here there wasn't a lot on that bike that wasn't stock...and boy, did it have legs on my essentially stock one!!




So the move to production racing is becoming the class to move to, but IMO the 125 - 250 training ground is still a critical part of developing skill.

rambling over

Yeap, surely is, not even trying to dispute that - it's absoulutly essential. But the focus is still on the production classes for young talent worlwide, with the execption of probably Spain, who have a booming 125 class-only its almost at the same level for enty as world 125...

[Ivan]

bunch of diesels if you ask me..........................



We need more ring ding ding than more brooooom broooooom broooooom nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke the blue haze when it starts the noise and then that mad power band

[sidecar bob]

bunch of diesels if you ask me..........................



We need more ring ding ding than more brooooom broooooom broooooom nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke the blue haze when it starts the noise and then that mad power band

Broooooom brooooom is what brings the spectators running chap, S.O.T at Ruapuna had many times the spectators that Manfield had.

[Two Smoker]

Maybe thats why racing spectating in NZ is dying, is because when people go to races, its not interesting, because they are just seeing bikes they see on the road everyday (and in thier garage)

I believe it has been dead for a while due to the lack of riders... More riders=more competition=harder/faster riding=closer racing at the front.


I also beleive that going from 125s - 600s is fine. But going from a few track days, or a season of 150s streetstock or the likes to 600s isnt a smart move.


There are still other steps that can be taken other than 125's... that being in the form of SV650's...

[Kickaha]

Broooooom brooooom is what brings the spectators running chap, S.O.T at Ruapuna had many times the spectators that Manfield had.

It always does, it would be one of the best meetings to attend either as competitior or spectator

[Maido]

HRC japan are the only ones selling a new 250 now (only a few being made for the all japan series, and no major changes since 03), yamaha japan only released 9 last year, none of which were brought by the public, and aprillia, well as jay said, rob a bank and you might afford one.
go to a japanese manufacturer motorbike shop (ie szuki, kwaka, honda yami), and ask to buy a brand new 2007 2 stroke motorcross bike, sorry don't make them anymore.

Anyway, as i said before it is not the bikes that make good racing but the guys riding them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We definately need 125's no question.
I believe that the 125 to 600 is still a big step up, unless you have a mentor, such as sam and dom had which make the swap easier.
currently in japan they are trialing and racing a 250 and 400 4 stroke class to replace the 125/250 gap left.
also, look up the hrc web site (not the crap american one but the actual japanses one http://www.honda.co.jp/HRC/) and check out the nsf100 class, it is huge, they had an endurance race there last year with 150 (yes 150) entries. I see this as the logical step to get into racing in nz in a few years when the 150's are obsolete or parts dry up for them, granted they are expensive now but that will change after a few years.
our typical step once we do well in nz is to head to aussie, so it makes sence we are aligned with aussie, they race 125, 600 and 1000 as their main classes, so should we.

anyway, back to the original thread, i think in about 3-4 years time, there will be a racing boom in nz again, all these guys pete is mentoring will grow up (there are already some damn good riders coming through now), sure a couple will drop off but a lot will come through and they will be bolstering the ranks. but for now we will have to weather the storm.
Domestic racing world wide took a dive about about 5 years ago, now it is as big as ever. examples of this were evident in japan they went from about 20 showing up and racing to getting fields of around 60 showing up just to qualify. (there were 9 showing up to race 250's dig dig my bad!!).
remember nz is typically behind in trends and we also have a strong rugger culture here that takes alot of young people from other sports. (check out soccer, biggest game in the world, yet we can't raise 1m for an A league team)

[Brian d marge]

I can respond to the Japanese side , There is a clear step between dad ( actually family ) and son ( daughter aswell!!)

Just round the corner is Kita anasagawa prk where they start about 4/5\6 years old on pocket bikes ( the family all behind the kids ,,great fun I have taken my boy there ,,he is 2 and a half ,,( Ive got the bike lined up !!)

its a great track ,,a small go kart track ...big pit area

Anyway they run ... pocket bikes ,,80 cc /ns100 ( now that class is HUGE ,,BECAUSE of the licience system , and the young kids love the honda ape ( monkey bike ..Nsr80 etc

Honda has responded to the home market ( and does very well though what sells in Shibuya ,,aint what you fellas want !!! and I feel something is wrong at Honda at the mo ..I know the out board motor and Motorcycle division are merging ,,,but thats been talked about for years but they have been having a few meetings about it of late )

Anyway So we have a BIG ns100 class for kids around 12/13 ..then its 125

Now there aint alot of these things for sale .. then the next is 250 ,, here a lot of people run modded road bikes ,,and these thing are up to gp level ( so to speak...Have a look at a company called JHA )

You can buy and run a NSR 250 quite cheaply ..they cost 100 000 to buy for a rough one ..and you could spend that again to make it a flier ..that is still cheap

After that its ST600 , pick up a 2003/4 Cbr for around 2-300 000 yen and get a full season easily just tyres and oil / crash damage ..

Finally the JSB these are the 1000 cc bike and again you can buy a few years old model ,,you will be last ,,but you can have a lot of fun doing it ! ..


the steps are clear AND affordable

One thing that I see people do is form a club .. They have 10 /15 people in the club and just like the old mans RSA ..they run a bike for the season ,,,and get right behind it in the race ( I even saw a Honda X11 club in and Endurance race .....)

The key I think is affordability .. Just thinking about it ,, for 2 months Salary ..yes kids dont get fed / rent not paid ... no food ......

I could buy a bike up to 600 cc.... leathers and a set of sticky road tyres and race

If I was to be smart about it ,,and feed the kids I could be done way cheaper ... you would be mid field to last though ,,,,,


As for Racing in NZ

The street circuits are a hidden Gem ..sod the IOM ( nice breakfasts and beer ,,,but I would prefer Paeroa )

10 000 people on main street on sunday ,,,a retailers dream!!! , pubs , food ,,sun ..restraunts??( not sure I had a stevies meat pie and watched the racing )

compare that with the Nationals ...... ( have the video here ,,,handfull of bikes on a large windswept field ,,, with a hot dog stand ( well it looked like it !!! at Ruapuna ,,, )

Not a lot to say about the racing in NZ .. The buckets i not to keen on as to be honest there is too much No 8 fencing wire ..BUT and thats a Big BUT ...I think they are essential , as it fosters that creativity that NZ engineers are famous for ... ,,presentation wise I think the bar needs to be lifted

not a lot happens till 600 cc good class looked full and the racing was close ...
1000 cc .. seems to be the same 4 or five bikes ....ho hum

Everyone needs to get something from the sport ..spectators ( wives/girlfriends) need an interesting day worth the 20 dollars entry fee ...

Business need traffic and money /advertising ..to make it worth while

Racers need a level playing field and a good day out ..( be a whole lot better if you could take some money home to cover the costs)

IMHO

Stephen

[Maido]

Hey Stephen, You heard much about the up and coming Japanese road race around the volcanoe island!!, looks like the japas are finally cashing into their own IOM!!! I imagine that to be a massive event.

[roogazza]

[QUOTE=Two Smoker;975293]I believe it has been dead for a while due to the lack of riders... More riders=more competition=harder/faster riding=closer racing at the front.

I feel for the young guys out there, it must be so hard and bloody expensive ?
I have no answers to the problems unless we can some how get back to real production (so called standard bikes )
I'm so glad I came from the 70's era where tyres were fifty bucks and you'd use about one front and two rears for the whole points series!
and you bought an RD350 for $500 to race against 40 odd others.
( I actually made money racing in those days) !!!!!!!!!! Gaz.

[bistard]

[QUOTE=Two Smoker;975293]I believe it has been dead for a while due to the lack of riders... More riders=more competition=harder/faster riding=closer racing at the front.

I feel for the young guys out there, it must be so hard and bloody expensive ?
I have no answers to the problems unless we can some how get back to real production (so called standard bikes )
I'm so glad I came from the 70's era where tyres were fifty bucks and you'd use about one front and two rears for the whole points series!
and you bought an RD350 for $500 to race against 40 odd others.
( I actually made money racing in those days) !!!!!!!!!! Gaz.

Gazza,is that how you made your fortune?? I wondered ??
As I know you are independantly wealthy,You & Bazza Sheene aye

[roogazza]

Yep and I'm still jumping off the damm things (as of last Sat morn !!!!) G.

[Brian d marge]

Hey Stephen, You heard much about the up and coming Japanese road race around the volcanoe island!!, looks like the japas are finally cashing into their own IOM!!! I imagine that to be a massive event.

No I havent ,,,I am off to Motegi on the 4th for the superbikes ( If I have time )

Just had a look through this years MFJ race calender and didnt see anything? okayama maybe??


the classes for motegi are superbikes , St600 Gp 250 Gp125 and supermono .. ?? ( I asume something like Jason Eastons bike )


Stephen

[Maido]

With a class that size, I would assume it is all japan??
Also, the 250 4 i was talking about that is replacing the 125's is a gpmr250x, which is the gp mono you were talking about.
as far as that road race goes, it is on an island off the main land (sounds like IOM!!) and is not okayama.

[Brian d marge]

Ahh I see this is why Honda havent entered in the lower ranks this year ,,Just JSB

here is the bike you are talking about ,,,which makes Eastons bike even better ,,he has been campaining that thing for years and it goes quite well to

Stephen

[slowpoke]

Just logged on after the weekend and read through resulting storm of opinions and thought I might as well revive a spluttering thread.

My thoughts:

1) I think racers like being able to buy/ride a street bike and get a taste for racing with the same bike, which makes GP style two strokes a difficult proposition for all but the very comitted. See any trade me add for a race bike and one of the first questions asked is usually "can it be road registered?". A road capable race bike is a far more attractive option for prospective racers than something that sits in the shed 350 days of the year, and is far easier to on sell.

2) At club level I think most racers would prefer more shorter races (3 x 8laps) than less longer ones (2 x 12laps). The way the field spreads out I think the spectators would also enjoy the races more. The starts and initial tussling for position are the most exciting part of a race unless the race is very close, which is less likely the longer the race goes on. This would also have the added benefit of giving the aspiring riders more exposure to the better riders, thereby giving them the chance to improve before they guns disappear into the distance.

3) The availabilty of instruction for those riders who are serious about improving themselves. Maybe the clubs could run trackdays for aspiring or novice racers with the bonus of some setup, bike prep, or riding tips from some more experienced racers. I for one would be keen to actually participate in something that would actively help me improve my riding (gawd knows I need it...) rather than just hammering around at a trackday with little idea of what to do to actually improve. The riders would improve, the clubs could make a bit of dosh, and more people might get on the track.

[kickingzebra]

6 or 8 lap races go by far too quickly, slightly longer allows race craft to be practised, rather than just straight out sprinting skills.

[cowpoos]

6 or 8 lap races go by far too quickly, slightly longer allows race craft to be practised, rather than just straight out sprinting skills.
I dunno man....some of us need to stop for a sausage roll a cuppa and a smoke after 6-8 laps!!

[JayRacer37]

I dunno man....some of us need to stop for a sausage roll a cuppa and a smoke after 6-8 laps!!

Nah, KZ is right...longer races. none of the stuff o'seas is short...lets bring our standards up too.

[kickingzebra]

We will all learn more in longer races, and be able to consolidate skills faster, hence lifting the standard, making racing in NZ (perish the thought) something that the general public might actually want to see.

[Goblin]

We will all learn more in longer races, and be able to consolidate skills faster, hence lifting the standard, making racing in NZ (perish the thought) something that the general public might actually want to see.Agree 100%! I'd love to do some 10-20 lap racing. Longest races I've ever done were 6 laps and I was just warming up. Most of my best times are the last lap. I'm all for longer races.

[scrivy]

Why cant we have 3 x 6 lap sprint races and 1 x 12 lapper per class??
Spectators are what we are lacking, and sprint races are what they want to see.
I personally find long races boring. The fast guys buggar off, and the field stretches out to the point where the spectators lose interest, and don't even know who's coming where.
I know alot of sidecar riders would prefer sprint races.

Lets be honest, the people who need the exposure to the fast guys always get left behind. The longer the race, the bigger the gap. Keep it short and tight, that way they can still be in contention with the fast guys. Stroudy doesn't always get the best of starts. Look at Rees getting the holeshot at Puke. But eventually the guns got to the front. Imagine if it wasn't Tony leading, but a 'novice'. Imagine being at the pointy end with the best for a few laps!! That would be a rush, and an experience for a novice! :yes:

[sidecar bob]

Why cant we have 3 x 6 lap sprint races and 1 x 12 lapper per class??
Spectators are what we are lacking, and sprint races are what they want to see.
I personally find long races boring. The fast guys buggar off, and the field stretches out to the point where the spectators lose interest, and don't even know who's coming where.
I know alot of sidecar riders would prefer sprint races.

Lets be honest, the people who need the exposure to the fast guys always get left behind. The longer the race, the bigger the gap. Keep it short and tight, that way they can still be in contention with the fast guys. Stroudy doesn't always get the best of starts. Look at Rees getting the holeshot at Puke. But eventually the guns got to the front. Imagine if it wasn't Tony leading, but a 'novice'. Imagine being at the pointy end with the best for a few laps!! That would be a rush, and an experience for a novice! :yes:

A lot of passengers would prefer sprint races too, scooter boy.:Punk:

[Keystone19]

I agree scrivy. I like the longer races personally - I'm one of those fortunate to have my times get quicker as the race continues - but from a spectator point of view I think a sprint format would be good.

So maybe as you suggest a combination would work well. Maybe a 6 lapper, a 10 lapper and a 15-20 lapper. Sort out the boys from the girls - or is that boys from the men - or girls from the women - or women from the girls - or men from the boys...ahh...you know what I mean!!!

[kickingzebra]

Anything can be done with organisation, but seriously, what is a better goal, begin to try and compete on an international scale, or attract 10 per cent more motorcyclists to come watch our races by making them sprints??

If we run international grade competitions, then people will be naturally curious, big ups to the club that tries to do this.

Chasing the big boys, that is going to happen as long as there are slower people out there, the only way around that, time on the track, and coaching etc, for which I am quite glad MNZ are putting on this seminar next month.

[scrivy]

Shit Keystone, don't mention boys and girls here. Divvo and Kick will haunt this thread !!!!:dodge:

[sidecar bob]

I agree scrivy. I like the longer races personally - I'm one of those fortunate to have my times get quicker as the race continues - but from a spectator point of view I think a sprint format would be good.

So maybe as you suggest a combination would work well. Maybe a 6 lapper, a 10 lapper and a 15-20 lapper. Sort out the boys from the girls - or is that boys from the men - or girls from the women - or women from the girls - or men from the boys...ahh...you know what I mean!!!

I think six slappers would be best.:bleh:

[scrivy]

Anything can be done with organisation, but seriously, what is a better goal, begin to try and compete on an international scale, or attract 10 per cent more motorcyclists to come watch our races by making them sprints??
If we run international grade competitions, then people will be naturally curious, big ups to the club that tries to do this.

How much money do clubs actually make on gate taking?? Remember there have been naf all spectators lately. Also, clubs aren't losing money like previous years, as riders no longer get prizemoney - that's a huge saving to the clubs
What would happen if clubs didn't charge spectators for their entry??
Would we get more spectators?? What if they liked what they saw?? Would they come back again??
:shutup:

[scrivy]

I think six slappers would be best.:bleh:

Typical Dob!! Poon poon poon...............:lol:

[kickingzebra]

none of the clubs I have raced at to date charge gate fees...
We are just a version of saturday morning kids rugby without the benefit of sociopathic cult following.

They would come back if they knew it was going on, but I fear it is hard enough for a rider to find race dates etc, much less for joe public

[Keystone19]

I think six slappers would be best.:bleh:

Six slappers on a side car? Wow - that I'd pay an entry fee to see...

[bistard]

none of the clubs I have raced at to date charge gate fees...
We are just a version of saturday morning kids rugby without the benefit of sociopathic cult following.

They would come back if they knew it was going on, but I fear it is hard enough for a rider to find race dates etc, much less for joe public

The problem with charging a gate fee,well at Manfeild anyway,is the owner(Manfeild Promotions),charge the club more for the rental,from memory it was about three times the normal price,so its a catch 22 situation

[scracha]

They would come back if they knew it was going on, but I fear it is hard enough for a rider to find race dates etc, much less for joe public

You've hit a big nail on the head with that comment.

[sidecar bob]

Six slappers on a side car? Wow - that I'd pay an entry fee to see...

I rest my case, I may be the poon king accoirding to scrivy, but sex obviously sells.
Heres the go, Get yourselves a hot pit bitch, brolly dolly or whatever you call yours & convince her to wear a leather thong.
If you can only raise the missus & shes gone a bit past her use by date, dont worry, some sickos are into BHFM (big hairy fat mature)
If we can all do that, the racing wont matter, but as you can see from our cross section survey (keystone) the stands would be full & we would be turning away spectators at the gate.

[scrivy]

Can I use your missus Bob? :shit:

[scrivy]

The problem with charging a gate fee,well at Manfeild anyway,is the owner(Manfeild Promotions),charge the club more for the rental,from memory it was about three times the normal price,so its a catch 22 situation

It applies to most circuits.
Thats what I was talking about earlier. Don't charge for spectators to come in, and the circuit hire rate reduces which saves the clubs even more money which they can then spend on advertising or on getting awesome displays etc. (or pay o/seas riders) to enhance our own series. :yes:

[slowpoke]

6 or 8 lap races go by far too quickly, slightly longer allows race craft to be practised, rather than just straight out sprinting skills.

I reckon at the highest level in NZ (Nat's) the races should definitely be at the longer end of the scale (20 laps) for exactly the reasons you've stated....BUT, at the club level, closer sprint type racing would be more exciting for spectators and give the slower riders more exposure to the faster guys. There's not much to be learned from riders you can't even see or that are separated by 50 or more metres. Once you can compete on sheer speed in a sprint race THEN you can start to think about racecraft in the longer format races.

I think another problem we have at the club level is we try to be all things to all racers. By that I mean so many classes are run that the skill level in each class is diluted. Racers should be trying to fit the available classes rather than running a myriad of different classes to suit everything from buckets to Superbikes. Maybe we need to trim the number of classes to get more people into fewer classes for bigger fields, better, more competive and more exciting racing to attract the viewing public and potential sponsors.

[Cleve]

I reckon at the highest level in NZ (Nat's) the races should definitely be at the longer end of the scale (20 laps) for exactly the reasons you've stated....BUT, at the club level, closer sprint type racing would be more exciting for spectators and give the slower riders more exposure to the faster guys. There's not much to be learned from riders you can't even see or that are separated by 50 or more metres. Once you can compete on sheer speed in a sprint race THEN you can start to think about racecraft in the longer format races.

Basically that is what does happen although VMCC have a few longer ones in the middle of the Winter series just to spice things up a bit. All other club events I have done have been 6-8 lappers. Anyway regardless of length of race if there is a fast guy there (Sam Smith, Jay Lawrence etc) you don't see them by the end of the 2nd lap at best so not much to learn...