Copy Cating A Product...

[degrom]

What is the implications of copying a overseas(USA) product and producing it locally?

I am not sure if there is a pattern on the design but I have seen that there are about 3 companies in the USA that makes it.

Reason I was wondering is because I can produce the same unit in a few months time at almost a third the cost.

The item will of course be a bit different because it will have to use local consumables...

What do you think?

[Motu]

Velly good idea,make you happy all night long.

Patents and copyrights don't bother some people....just depends on what slant your eyes are on.....

[Laava]

So is it an iPod made from pine or what?:sunny:

[TerminalAddict]

So is it an iPod made from pine or what?:sunny:

been done
http://www.flickr.com/photos/zapwizard/sets/476089/

[deathstar]

as far as i got from the man who makes the oxford gear in the uk that as long as their are 3 noticeable differences then you can exactly copy the rest

[Fub@r]

Velly good idea,make you happy all night long.

Patents and copyrights don't bother some people....just depends on what slant your eyes are on.....


My missus had a run in a few years ago over what turned out to be a copy cat product. The woman that owned the patent made a living sueing the shops that sold the product even though they were unaware that it was basically a rip off at 50% less than this womans version.

Her product was never successful but found it was extremely lucrative to sue the offending shop owners rather than the knock off company. Was sooooo wrong

[Quartermile]

I have often wondered this as it is the U.S. Patent Office which has nothing to do with NZ, anyway half of America doesn't even know we exist, will we watching this one........:shifty:

[James Deuce]

I have often wondered this as it is the U.S. Patent Office which has nothing to do with NZ, anyway half of America doesn't even know we exist, will we watching this one........:shifty:

Half? More like 9/10ths.

[JimO]

Half? More like 9/10ths.
11/10ths i would say having spent some time there

[degrom]

I think I will give it a go....

It's a low volume item, I will make one and see if it will sell. If it does I will just have to make another one cause I want to use it my self to...

(No... It ain't a Wood Ipod... But come to think of it I have not seen a solar powered Ipod)

[Guitana]

You can get away with it if you make some subtle changes! But be very wary if you are making it for yourself and not to market it as a product that's fine,but if you market it and get caught they could prosecute you!
Just look what happened to the Blackball Hilton on the westcoast!!!!!
We are not untouchable by international law here in NZ so once you get this product up and running go to china and get a company to mass produce the item with slave labour and sit back and watch the dinero's roll in until they decide to steal it for themselves!!!!!!!

[MacD]

What is the implications of copying a overseas(USA) product and producing it locally?



It's all good until the copyright/patent owner decides to take action (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=00099FC1-B2EA-14AC-B09B83027AF1010F)...

My Brother-in-law is an IP Lawyer, he makes a good living.

[KATWYN]

Natural copyright. If they ever challenge you on copyright
you can't say you didn't copy....regardless of if (as someone in here suggested) "suble changes are made" to it. Copyright isn't always about the look of it.

Its about where you got the idea from and how you have gone about designing and producing it.

Those 0ther 3 companies may be producing under licence.

To be safe, think up your own idea's from scratch so you can always say
with an honest conscience that you didn't copy someone elses works.

[degrom]

Natural copyright. If they ever challenge you on copyright
you can't say you didn't copy....regardless of if (as someone in here suggested) "suble changes are made" to it. Copyright isn't always about the look of it.

Its about where you got the idea from and how you have gone about designing and producing it.

Those 0ther 3 companies may be producing under licence.

To be safe, think up your own idea's from scratch so you can always say
with an honest conscience that you didn't copy someone elses works.

What you are saying is very true and I agree with you. It's always better to use your own ideas. One also needs to be save and get the copyright to your ideas.

Okay here is a better picture of how I see it....

New Zealand is a very isolated country.Business wise this can be very hard and limiting on new business. (It can also be seen as a great opportunity)

Making a break as a new business you need to have a really special product that is very special to your company or you should go the China way and produce it at very low prices in big volumes.

The particular item I am looking at are not really available locally or even in Australia. The products that are available will work but their designs are a few decades behind.(They are hard to work with and takes a lot of time.)

Importing machinery from the states are out for almost all start-up companies.

So what are we to do?

What I can do,is build one for my self... Improve some more on the design,build the new planned design and sell the old one. That way at least I can cover my costs and not really get into trouble.

People say life is hard..... I think they should try to start a business!!! (10x harder,especial if your not the kind that bullshit people!!!)

[Busy]

Do a search on the internet for an international patent on the item, if it is only a local (US) patent then you can copy it.
If it does have a international patent you can copy it but it has to be a minimum of a 10% difference.
The patent is not for the product as such, it's for the way the product used, and how used.

Lets use a fish tank for example, a square tank is different to a rectangle tank which is different to a hexagon. The tank itself can not be patented because it is really just a container, if it was patentable then everything down to a jam jar (really small fish) would be sue-able. Some things just can not be patented.

Another example (hard to think of items when coffee hasn't kicked in), lets say toilet paper, if the patent was issued it would be to wipe ya butt, but if you use the tp to blow your nose, stop a blood nose, wipe up a mess ... then it is outside the patent description. I haven't looked to see if there is one on tp, I doubt it, but when you apply for a pattern you have to describe everything about it, the material, the operation, intended purpose ...
Say you made a roll of paper - same as toilet paper but square sheets instead of rectangle and sold it as a nose wiper, mess wiper ... basically no mention of wiping your butt then you have a totally different product although it can be used the same as the toilet paper. I'm sure a smartass lawyer would try sue you but as you never used the word toilet in your advertising or patent they wouldn't have a leg to stand on, they would have to turn the other cheek ;)

copyright is for written or drawn, not products. Everything, this post included has an automatic 50 year copyright but no one worries about it. The song "happy birthday" actually has a filed copyright on it but everyone still uses it.

[ManDownUnder]

Patents biggest threat comes in defending the lawsuits. They say you breached their patent... but you maintain you didn't.

So - they sue, and you defend... each at the cost of $20,000 (and face it - that's a very low/very conservative figure).

So they win - coz they had money pouring out their arse as US companies tend to do. They then seek remedies of all lost product sales (i.e. the total amount of money you made).

So that 20k just went up to 30k... assuming you sold 10 grand in kit.

So... next steps... you want to appeal that previous decision (risking an additional 30 or 40k in costs), or do you accept the original 30k loss?

Your call... just treat very carefully. The breach of patent isn't the big deal - the lawsuit that follows is

[degrom]

Patents biggest threat comes in defending the lawsuits. They say you breached their patent... but you maintain you didn't.

So - they sue, and you defend... each at the cost of $20,000 (and face it - that's a very low/very conservative figure).

So they win - coz they had money pouring out their arse as US companies tend to do. They then seek remedies of all lost product sales (i.e. the total amount of money you made).

So that 20k just went up to 30k... assuming you sold 10 grand in kit.

So... next steps... you want to appeal that previous decision (risking an additional 30 or 40k in costs), or do you accept the original 30k loss?

Your call... just treat very carefully. The breach of patent isn't the big deal - the lawsuit that follows is


Catch 22!!

If you want to boost an industry you need to make the tools affordable so beginners can start out easy.This ensures good competition and creativity.

If I sell the units for what they are worth you will make a killing over here. But then they will sue you for all your money. (Because you made value out of a market the 9/10 people in their population doesn't even know of.)

No wonder young people say "What the F##K!!! Why even try..."

What about just charging for materials and labor for making the product?
That why I can sell my "secondhand" one, and advertise that I will make similar units if they pay for the labor and material. Turning it more into a
service that a product?

[ManDownUnder]

No wonder young people say "What the F##K!!! Why even try..."


Yup - a high stakes game of poker is all it is. Might is right. "We'll keep suing till you go under" is the implied threat. Whether they are right or wrong is a whole other question - and one they're actually not too concerned with. The higher they make the stakes the more likely you are to fold... and they win.


That why I can sell my "secondhand" one, and advertise that I will make similar units if they pay for the labor and material. Turning it more into a
service that a product?

I don't know the detail of it but I expect the facilitation of a breach of patent would not be smiled upon.

[degrom]

Yup - a high stakes game of poker is all it is. Might is right. "We'll keep suing till you go under" is the implied threat. Whether they are right or wrong is a whole other question - and one they're actually not too concerned with. The higher they make the stakes the more likely you are to fold... and they win.



I don't know the detail of it but I expect the facilitation of a breach of patent would not be smiled upon.

You know,I just hate not being able to share your knowledge and ideas with other people. (Sharing ideas generates even better once!!!)

You can't make this stuff for free and people don't get to know about you if you don't advertise...

I will find a way. :)

[ManDownUnder]

You know,I just hate not being able to share your knowledge and ideas with other people. (Sharing ideas generates even better once!!!)

You can't make this stuff for free and people don't get to know about you if you don't advertise...

I will find a way. :)

LOL Agreed 200% I hate it too. There are commercial reasons why protactions are needed to start with - but it's too easily translated into a game of corporate greed.

[degrom]

LOL Agreed 200% I hate it too. There are commercial reasons why protactions are needed to start with - but it's too easily translated into a game of corporate greed.

Life's about balance...

If you steal another persons idea you will get screwed!!!
If you don't protect your ideas you will get screwed!!!

Normal people... They get screwed anyway!!! (Telecom's the name!!!) LOL

[MacD]

If you really are considering baseing a business around this product then you have to take this issue seriously. There's no point getting a business going to lose it all in a lawsuit.

Here's a starting point, Patent Protection in NZ (http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Page____1187.aspx).

[Quartermile]

But if something is with the patent office of America, then it shouldn't affect other countries, or is there a world patent office:scratch:,
more like America wishes it was the world office:rolleyes:

[imdying]

How does an American company go about sueing you in NZ? Can you simply ignore them and forfeit ever travelling to the States? Can you make an overseas holding company, and have manufacturing done in China?

[MacD]

But if something is with the patent office of America, then it shouldn't affect other countries, or is there a world patent office:scratch:,


Sort of, there is a Patent Cooperation Treaty (http://www.wipo.int/pct/en/treaty/about.htm), which effectively allows for the filing of an International Patent.

Depending on the product, there may be a patented filed in the US only, filed in the US, NZ and other countries separately, or a patent filed in the US and via the PCT.

[degrom]

Very true....

New Zealand is a party to the Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property 1883 and, as a Member of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), the Agreement on the Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (the TRIPS Agreement).

[Quartermile]

Ok I see, I thought something like that might exist

[V4ME]

[QUOTE=degrom;973748]What is the implications of copying a overseas(USA) product and producing it locally?
QUOTE]


Seems you've screwed yourself by asking the question in the first place, Now even if you do it - someone will know you are 'copying' - no pleading innocence now! I'll stay mum on - I promise - I may even buy one of your new product - anything to get something cheaper - and probably better.

[Beemer]

I have often wondered this as it is the U.S. Patent Office which has nothing to do with NZ, anyway half of America doesn't even know we exist, will we watching this one........:shifty:

Check with IPONZ first - many US products have worldwide patents and you could find they sue the arse off you. You can do a search on IPONZ's website under different headings/words to see if anyone has registered a patent here. Sometimes patents are filed here but the product is never produced here, it's just to stop anyone else trying to make a buck.

While some people don't worry about patents and trade marks, etc, others do and will go to great lengths to stop you using their ideas. I had to fight someone last year who began using a business name I had been using for years. I won, but the only people who really get rich are the lawyers. MDU is right - if I had taken the case to court rather than settling it privately (which still cost a fortune in legal fees!), the lawyer said I could be up for costs of anywhere between $20,000 and $100,000 - and if the other party appealed, even more.

[Pumba]

I think every one else has summed things up pretty good however im curious to what the product might be

[degrom]

Lucky the US don't have the power to read minds yet other wise I would eb screwed for thinking about it and the rest of us would call them "GOD".

Interesting how the Rich get Richer and the poor keep funding them....

[El Dopa]

What are the implications of copying an overseas(USA) product and producing it locally?

I am not sure if there is a pattern on the design but I have seen that there are about 3 companies in the USA that makes it.

Reason I was wondering is because I can produce the same unit in a few months time at almost a third the cost.

Drop me a PM with some details. This is my specialist subject.

Please don't take the advice in this thread as gospel. Some of it's a bit wide of the mark.

MDU has a pretty good grasp of it. But he should, because I've advised him before.......


as far as i got from the man who makes the oxford gear in the uk that as long as their are 3 noticeable differences then you can exactly copy the rest


If it does have a international patent you can copy it but it has to be a minimum of a 10% difference.


copyright is for written or drawn, not products. Everything, this post included has an automatic 50 year copyright but no one worries about it. The song "happy birthday" actually has a filed copyright on it but everyone still uses it.

All wrong, I'm afraid.


Check with IPONZ first

Who will tell you to come and talk to someone like me.

I'm not going to sit on this thread all eveing explaining the law because I do that all day at work, and I'm fucking fed up with it at the moment (need a holiday). But basically:

Copyright in NZ applies to everything and it is automatic. You don't need to register it or apply for it. The duration depends on what the 'thing' is and how it is used. Copyright on a book will last decades. Copyright on a mould used to produce fibreglass bike helmet shells will last no more than 16 years.

A 'registered design' protects the way something LOOKS - shape and configuration. Any purely functional aspects of a product are specifically excluded. The design needs to be applied for, and protection is regional - if a company wants protection in NZ and Australia, they have to apply in BOTH countries SEPARATELY (and Europe, and the US, etc, etc).

A patent protects a concept. If your concept is a revolutionary front suspension system, a patent can protect that product. You could also file a separate application for the method of producing your revolutionary front suspension system, assuming that the process was also revolutionary.

Patents are regional. There is no international PATENT. There is an international patent APPLICATION, which has been referred to. This LAPSES after a certain amount of time, or when regional applications are filed off the back of it. You can't sue anyone with it, or enforce any other rights with it, except your right to file regional applications before it expires (30 months from first filing).

Degrom: A lot of companies won't bother filing patent applications in NZ, because the market isn't big enough to justify the cost. A lot of US companies don't even bother filing outside the US. If this is the case, you can probably copy the product and sell it locally (i.e in NZ) without any problems. But I need details before I commit myself.

Once again, I'm happy to give you some advice if you drop me some details.

[Beemer]

Ah, so you're a patent attorney or similar, El Dopa? I just hope you're not related to the guy who has managed to stuff up my latest application, all for the princely sum of $300 an hour! IPONZ is not my favourite organisation at present...

And don't even get me started on accountants... if mine hadn't told me there was "very little risk" of anyone using the same name as I had so he couldn't see the need to trade mark it, I'd be a lot richer right now!

[degrom]

Ah, so you're a patent attorney or similar, El Dopa? I just hope you're not related to the guy who has managed to stuff up my latest application, all for the princely sum of $300 an hour! IPONZ is not my favourite organisation at present...

And don't even get me started on accountants... if mine hadn't told me there was "very little risk" of anyone using the same name as I had so he couldn't see the need to trade mark it, I'd be a lot richer right now!

Hi mate... Don't kill the messenger... Talk to Miss Helen about your problems.

[El Dopa]

Ah, so you're a patent attorney or similar, El Dopa? I just hope you're not related to the guy who has managed to stuff up my latest application, all for the princely sum of $300 an hour! IPONZ is not my favourite organisation at present

I don't charge $300 p/h.............yet.

So no, not me. I would ask the details, but that would probably be breaking some sort of Jedi code.

[KATWYN]

We have a really good IP attorney.....I don't think we have ever
been charged $300.00 p/h tho?, maybe that is their rate too.

We trust their expertise and their service is fantastic- so we have never complained about the charges.

[Beemer]

I don't charge $300 p/h.............yet.

So no, not me. I would ask the details, but that would probably be breaking some sort of Jedi code.

I got recommended to a firm that someone told me was the best. A senior parner does the initial work then hands it over to an associate - but the hourly rate doesn't reduce! They did a few things wrong so I wrote a well-worded letter of complaint and the upshot is they have wiped the last account sent to me and will do the remainder of the work for free! So they aren't totally bad at this point in time!

[degrom]

I got recommended to a firm that someone told me was the best. A senior parner does the initial work then hands it over to an associate - but the hourly rate doesn't reduce! They did a few things wrong so I wrote a well-worded letter of complaint and the upshot is they have wiped the last account sent to me and will do the remainder of the work for free! So they aren't totally bad at this point in time!

I think they did the right thing.... These day's people like to screw-up and then they don't even face up to the music!!!