Tube tyres on a tubeless wheel

[rouppe]

Warrant is coming up, getting prepared to replace the tyres at the same time. Did a bunch of research, sounds like the Mitas tyres are the business so ordererd some E08's.

Turns out they are tube-type tyres, and my XF650 Freewind has tubless rims. What is the story fitting tube-type tyres to a tubeless rim, both front and rear.

The guy I ordered them from at lmsimports said no problem fitting the tube-type to the rear, but never tried it on the front. Well, that's dandy. I do not want to be cruising down the motorway on the way to work, and have a tyre - particularly a front - decide that it isn't going to stick anymore and cause me to closely examine the road surface.

Any advice? Send them back? Fit them no worries?

Thanks, Andrew

[Transalper]

I'd say no worries, the tyres will be fine... but I just don't know the finer points of fitting them... like weather they are ok as is or wether you'll need to stick a tube in them... which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If no one has a better answer soon i'll check with a couple of tyre people here to see what they say.

[rouppe]

If no one has a better answer soon i'll check with a couple of tyre people here to see what they say.

Its them finer points I'm worried about. I don't really want to have to fit tubes since tubeless is so much more convenient - especially if I have a small puncture. I'd rather send them back and get Pirelli's if that were the case but the feedback on the Mitas here was so good I thought I'd have no probs with them. I'd appreciate your enquiries... And the weird thing is that Mitas make a tubeless version: http://www.barum-pneu.cz/mitas/e-08/motocyklove-pneu/dezen.html?vyrobce=Mitas&dezen=E-08

By the way I work with BusaJim and he was pretty happy with the DustyButt trip last weekend. Couldn't say enough good things about all the help he got with the rip in his tyre.

Andrew

[Motu]

There shouldn't be any problem,although tubeless rims and tyres have a different bead security system.We have trouble fitting tubeless trials tyres onto tubed rims,they just don't want to seat sometimes.....but it doesn't really matter as the speeds are low.Check for tube creep and fit a rim lock if necessary.

[Transalper]

There shouldn't be any problem,although tubeless rims and tyres have a different bead security system.We have trouble fitting tubeless trials tyres onto tubed rims,they just don't want to seat sometimes.....but it doesn't really matter as the speeds are low.Check for tube creep and fit a rim lock if necessary.Interesting but hes going the other way... fitting a tube tyre to a tubless rim and hoping to not use a tube.

Talked to my Mitas supplier, they think from a WOF point of view they will be fine BUT... most of the ones they know that people are experimenting with hold pressure while sitting but when in motion they often leak a bit. I guess sometines the air works it's way past the bead which isn't fully compatable.
They said you could try it and see if it works for you, but i guess if you mount the tyre then your past the point of no return if it doesn't work. The first thing he said to me as i started telling rouppes story was they recommend using a tube and personally that's what i'd do, but then I like tubes where as you don't.

So there you have it... another opinion.

BTW DAS here in Chch have some tubless ones (don't know which sizes or patterns) on the way but expecting to be about 4 months until they're here.

[Motu]

I doubt you could use a tube tyre tubeless - they aren't made to hold air....the tube does that.The tubeless tyre is designed to hold air.I am pretty sure his tyre supplier is intending to fit a tube tyre and tube to these rims.

[rouppe]

Thanks TransAlp.... That makes the decision for me. My experience is that cutting corners never pays in the long run.

I will ring LMS and ask if they can supply tubeless. If they can, I'll do that. If they can't, I'll send them back and go with some Pirelli MT90's that are 'on sale' (for twice the price of the Mitas).

When those come closer to replacement I'll ring up Dirt Action to supply some tubeless ones.

Thanks heaps, Andrew

[NordieBoy]

You'll probably chew through the MT90's pretty quickly.

[XF650]

Andrew
Your's is the first XF650 I'v heard of that's running tubeless tyres.
Could you describe the wheels please - I wouldn't mind getting a set.
Thanks

[rouppe]

You'll probably chew through the MT90's pretty quickly.

Hope not! I was running MT80's which were on the bike when I bought it, and I've got about 9000kms out of those. So I'm hoping I'll get reaosnable mileage out of these new ones. If they chew quickly then I'll get something else next time. I may well try Dirt Action next time.

I'll let you know...

Andrew

[rouppe]

Andrew
Your's is the first XF650 I'v heard of that's running tubeless tyres.
Could you describe the wheels please - I wouldn't mind getting a set.
Thanks

I'm not quite sure what to say. I was just assuming that they were tubeless because the bike had Pirelli MT80 tyres on it when I bought it, and they say they are tubeless tyres... I've never had a puncture so I've never looked inside.

Maybe they are a tube-type rim that have had tubeless tyres fited with a tube. How do I tell? Not much I can tell you about the wheels without knowing what to look for...?

If I've got it wrong then maybe I need to go back to the drawing board...

I'm a mite irritated this afternoon cause I was parked outside Motorad while I was sorting out the warrant and tyre appointment. When I came outside the bike had been knocked over. Dent in the exhaust cover, scrape off the handle bar ends, front mudguard a bit askew. It could have blown over but I doubt it. Grrr. :angry:

Andrew

[crazybigal]

suck about your bike falling over! was dam gusty in town today.
you should be fine to fit a tube, of course it will cost you $30 bucks for a good tube!
Only time ive had problems was when i went to replace my tubeless mitchy on my gas gas trials bike i couldnt get the new one to bead up so i stuck a tube in it, problems is we run such low psi that without a rim lock i could rip the tube if the tyre slips. but i dont think you will have that problem on the front of your freewind.

[NordieBoy]

Hope not! I was running MT80's which were on the bike when I bought it, and I've got about 9000kms out of those. So I'm hoping I'll get reaosnable mileage out of these new ones. If they chew quickly then I'll get something else next time. I may well try Dirt Action next time.

I'll let you know...

Andrew

I loved them on the Nordie but they were expensive.
160x60x17 rear and 120x70x17 front.

[XF650]

Andrew
Sorry to read about the damage to your XF. Similair thing happened to mine but I was working on it in my garage at the time, so couldn't bame anyone else!

Are your wheels alloy or spoked?
From what I have read on these forums, most dual purpose spoke wheels are tubed, except for some BMW's & import Yam 225's.
If in fact you are running tubes, I also would recconmend the Mitas E-08's, especially for road work.

[Transalper]

...I was just assuming that they were tubeless because......
Maybe they are a tube-type rim that have had tubeless tyres fited with a tube. How do I tell? Not much I can tell you about the wheels without knowing what to look for...?
Take a decent photo of the valve area, we may be able to tell wether it's already running a tube or not.

[rouppe]

Are your wheels alloy or spoked?
From what I have read on these forums, most dual purpose spoke wheels are tubed, except for some BMW's & import Yam 225's.
If in fact you are running tubes, I also would recconmend the Mitas E-08's, especially for road work.

My wheels are spoked. I ordered the E08's and have them in my garage. That's what sparked all this off because I saw my old tyres said tubeless whereas the Mitas said tubed.

I'll take a photo of the valve area and post it tonight.

Cheers, guys, Andrew

[rouppe]

OK, solved. Just me being a great big dumb-ass.

The wheels are spoked, the spokes meet in the centre of the rim, and the valve has a bloody great nut at the base of it, all of which point to a wheel that requires a tube.

Sorry for being rather dim. Now I need to tell Motorad to cancel the Pirelli's cause the Mitas are going to work. Good thing its 3 or so weeks out.

Unfortunately I now have a useless tubeless repair kit which I'll have to put on the shelf and replace with a tubed repair hit. Also means I'll have to get a centre stand cause if I have a puncture out on the open road, I'll need to be able to take the wheel off...

Thanks for all your help guys.

Many thanks

Andrew

[NordieBoy]

OK, solved. Just me being a great big dumb-ass.

Don't put yourself down.
You're not that great.

:D

The Mitaseses should be great.

I'm tempted by the E08 as a "roadie" tyre to the E07 being "dirtie".

[Motu]

Bugger! I would of really liked to be there watching when you tried out your tubeless repair outfit.See - tubed tyres are ok now aren't they?

[rouppe]

I'm tempted by the E08 as a "roadie" tyre to the E07 being "dirtie".

I actually wanted to go for the E07's as they provide more opportunity off road. The E08's are really only firm surface tyres I think whereas the E07's should let you get into thicker stuff. Not that I can talk from experience... I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer before I get dirty... :innocent:


Bugger! I would of really liked to be there watching when you tried out your tubeless repair outfit.See - tubed tyres are ok now aren't they?
Yes I can imagine the chiropractic bills after everyone falls about laughing... :rofl:
Tubed tyres are OK but I still would have preferred tubeless. But there's no point wishing for something you can't have. If I want tubeless that bad I can sell the XF650 and buy a BMW. Don't want it that bad!

[YellowDog]

I have spoked wheels on my Nov. 1999 Freewind and the tyres are definitely Tubeless. The garage told me that using tubed tyres on a tubeless rim would ride round on heavy breaking and using them without a tube would leak air. I was also told that it would invalidate my insurance.

Not good really. If you have tubeless rims, use tubeless tyres.

Good luck :-)

[warewolf]

The garage is likely correct, but that's not an issue for you as you will have tube-type rims. Pretty much the only spoked rims that are tubeless are BMW's fancy jobs with the outboard spokes.

Most of the tyre companies advise that it is OK to use a tubeless tyre in a tube-type application. You will have to run a tube and doing so will drop the speed rating one grade, as the tubeless tyres have internal ribs that will rub on the tube.

Frustratingly in NZ it seems that any tyres that suit the BMW spoked tubeless rims are only imported in the tubeless style, even if there are tube-types made as well; for example the Continental TKC80 in the 90/90-21 size... which may go some way to explaining the spate of people thinking they have tubeless spoked rims because they currently have tubeless tyres fitted.

[avgas]

I used to run a tube inside tubeless on the GB. was better when i had small punctures as i could wack out the repair kit. Ran no problems. Hope this helps

[NordieBoy]

If your valve stem has thread visible on the outside you are running tubes.
If you have a spoked wheel then as Warewolf says, it's most probably a tubed wheel if it's not a beemer (> 650cc).
Motards in general come with spoked wheels, tubes and tubeless tyres from the factory - Invalidate insurance?

[Motu]

There are tubeless spoked wheels - modern trials bikes use tubeless tyres and have centre spoke rims.They are sealed around the spokes.I have heard of people sealing their spokes with silicone and running tubless tyres.It's not so much the tubeless tyre,but a tubeless rim is very different - they have an extra ridge to hold the bead in place,called a safety lip....for obvious reasons.

[YellowDog]

Thanks guys, very helpful information posted here.

[What?]

I have spoked wheels on my Nov. 1999 Freewind and the tyres are definitely Tubeless. The garage told me that using tubed tyres on a tubeless rim would ride round on heavy breaking and using them without a tube would leak air. I was also told that it would invalidate my insurance.

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. Do you really think that the factories would fit tubeless tyres (with tubes in them!) to tube-type rims if it wasn't perfectly OK to do so?
I have done well over 200,000Km with tubeless tyres on tube-type rims (XT550, XT600, F650, F650GS) and never had any issues, tyre creep or other.
And the Freewind most definitely has tube-type rims.

[Kickaha]

I have spoked wheels on my Nov. 1999 Freewind and the tyres are definitely Tubeless. The garage told me that using tubed tyres on a tubeless rim would ride round on heavy breaking and using them without a tube would leak air. I was also told that it would invalidate my insurance.


I would be very suprised if any of that was correct, normally the only construction difference between a tubed and tubeless tyre is that the inner liner on the tubeless isn't porus and they certainly wont ride around the rim on braking

[warewolf]

Sounds like a load of bollocks to me. ...
I have done well over 200,000Km with tubeless tyres on tube-type rims (XT550, XT600, F650, F650GS) and never had any issues, tyre creep or other.
You've got it round the wrong way... We're not suggesting there is any issue with doing it how you describe. The issue was doing it the other way round: a tube-type tyre on a tubeless rim.


I would be very suprised if any of that was correct, normally the only construction difference between a tubed and tubeless tyre is that the inner liner on the tubeless isn't porus and they certainly wont ride around the rim on brakingAs motu said, the primary difference is in the rim bead shape but I would expect some bead differences on the tyre, too, apart from the obvious one of tubeless tyres having much stronger & tighter beads which makes field repair more difficult.

There's shitloads of information on the web, go read it! :yes:

[Kickaha]

There's shitloads of information on the web, go read it! :yes:

I've worked in the tyre industry for 20 years and get stuff sent to me so I don't need to :bleh:

Dunno about Motorcycle tyres but there used to be no difference in car tyre bead construction between tube and tubeless tyres so I'd be suprised if there is in motorcycle tyres.

[Motu]

You can't get tubeless trials tyres to seat with a tube - it could just be the tube reacting differently inside the tubeless case,but can't see how.I've seen on a trials forum them saying it's because the beads are different....they look the same to me.

[YellowDog]

What? & Kikaha - I am only repeating my understanding of what I was told. It took almost 3 weeks to sort the tyres out on my bike. So YES, it probably was a Bollocks excuse.

I wouldn't recommend Infinity in Farnborough to anyone, which is lucky 'cos it's almost 20,000Km away!

[What?]

Thanks YellowDog, I definitely won't go there for advice...