Traffic light went orange! Oh Shit

[bull]

This morning coming into Wellington from Upper Hutt, i am approaching the lights at Kelson, road is dry and debri free, no traffic in front of me for about 300m - and no traffic behind me for about 200m, cruising at 107 - 110km/h then with about 40m to go till the lights it turns orange. Now if i was in my car it would of been on my imaginary (too late to break now/ just gun it through mode) line. So i proceed to brake hard, the rear locks then i release it and keep on braking, lights getting closer so i start applying even more front, the front squirms and by now im about 5m from the intersection. Decide im not going to be able to stop, lights go red and i gun it through. Cop car about 5 cars back doesnt do anything, and i dont feel too bad as i made the decision to go through based on the likelyhood of me only stopping whilst on my arse sliding on through.

Questions:
How far out from lights is too close to try and stop if it goes orange(so i can create my imaginary line)?
Should i have been able to stop (my poor braking technique or something?

[steved]

I really don't like lights in 100 km/h zones. Leads to exactly the situation you were in.

If you felt the front squirming, I imagine that you were too quick for the braking distance so going through was the best option. As to distance, add another 15-20 metres and it should be easy to stop.

[bert_is_evil]

If I'm in doubt I just gun it hoping no one is leaving early on the other green, I'd prefer a ticket to ending up on my arse in the middle of an intersection with two lanes of traffic baring down on me!

I'm currently training myself (on advice from fellow kb'er) not to use my back brake unless I'm going really slowly (in a car park or something), seems to be going well and makes emergency braking seem so much more controlled.

[Colapop]

Doesn't the law say that you should be travelling at such a speed so as to stop safely within the distance ahead of you? If the road conditions are poor then you should reduce your speed. It is better to arrive late at your destination than not at all.

That said an orange light means stop if you can do so safely before the intersection. Unfortunately too many people take that to mean orange is a chance to beat the red...

[ManDownUnder]

Orange light = stop if you safely can. You demonstrated you couldn't but also frustrated your chances of not going through a red (i.e. you added time and space to the whole thing despite your failure to come to a complete halt)

Tis easy enough - move your braking point back. You were at fault - you misjudaged the braking point. Fix it - end of story.

Embarrassing but not such a big deal considering the outcome (i.e. you weren't run over by a truck)

Edit - "Should you have been able to stop" isn't the simple question it seems. I'd personally ask "Would the vehicle behind me be able to stop". You stopping fast might translate to you being mowed down by the driver behind you... There's no hurry to stop - just do it safely... if you can.

[Squeak the Rat]

Practice stopping at that speed and get an idea of how much road you use up when braking. Observe whenever you brake so overtime you get experience in judging your stopping distance at different speeds. Sounds like you made the right decision at the end, but bear in mind that falling in a heap may be better than being t-boned.


I'm currently training myself (on advice from fellow kb'er) not to use my back brake unless I'm going really slowly (in a car park or something), seems to be going well and makes emergency braking seem so much more controlled.

I know a lot of people advocate this especially on sports bikes, but I just don't get it. Surely if you learn to use the back brake properly then you maximise the effectiveness of your braking power? And what do you do in the wet - use your front brake only or rely on un-practised technique? Probably a topic for another thread...... :scooter:

[marty]

i use a little system when i'm approaching a green light, where i decide on a distance from the light where my decision to stop or go is made for me. this is modified for speed and conditions. i use road side markers, arrows on the ground etc. once i am at the marker, if the light is green i go. if it changes at or after the marker, i still go.

in auckland though, this doesn't work, as even if my light is green, i still have to consider the very real possibilty that someone will come through the opposite red......

[bull]

Cool - thats what im after, so i need to bring my braking point back further than my holdens braking point. The 15-20m sounds reasonable.
Agreed the issue of choosing to brake then compounded into going through a red, would have been safer to gun down the orange.


Thank you for the replies - admittedly hadnt thought about how late i could brake coming to lights from 100km/h.

Lesson learnt and back down to the carpark to start braking from higher speeds.

[bull]

i use a little system when i'm approaching a green light, where i decide on a distance from the light where my decision to stop or go is made for me. this is modified for speed and conditions. i use road side markers, arrows on the ground etc. once i am at the marker, if the light is green i go. if it changes at or after the marker, i still go.

in auckland though, this doesn't work, as even if my light is green, i still have to consider the very real possibilty that someone will come through the opposite red......

Yep thats my imaginary line technique i use in my car, hadnt thought about doing similar for bike - HAVE NOW! and its further back than my car for sure.

[Beemer]

I experienced a similar 'shit!' moment in Wellington years ago. I was driving along Aotea Quay and as I approached the lights at the intersection by the central police station (Harris Street?) they turned orange. I was doing 50kph and the guy behind me was right on my tail so I carried on through. The light was still orange when I got through the intersection so I wasn't worried when I cop car pulled out of that street and into the traffic behind me. Amazingly, he didn't do anything about the guy who had been behind me, who had braked when he saw the cop car, and ended up 10 feet into the intersection, but he pulled me up around by the museum and gave me a ticket for going through an orange light! I took it to court and fought it, but still got done - so count yourself lucky! The prosecuting sergeant basically rubished my evidence, asking if I believed I had more experience than a police officer of 20 years service. They even tried to get the charge changed to running a red light half-way through the court appearance, but the JP (gotta love those morons!) hearing the case said they had proved I had run an orange light - but he halved my fine! I still had to pay court costs and lost a morning's pay, all for bloody nothing in my opinion. I had written letters to the police about people running red lights in Wellington (especially at the Haywards Hill lights) and yet I wasn't allowed to mention that because they didn't feel it was relevant to the case - whereas I believed it proved I was not the type of person to run a light, orange or red!

[judecatmad]

I always commit to going through lights about 100m before the lights, if it's a 100kph zone, I have a clear road ahead of me and the light is green at the time I make that commitment.

I actually tend to speed up once I'm inside that 100m and then ease off once I am through the lights. I feel safer that way.

If I don't have a clear exit ahead of me, I will ease off the throttle well before the lights so that I'm going a speed which makes it possible to stop safely.

It's good if you're travelling a familiar road to get to know the light sequences - most times you can gauge well ahead of time when the lights might be changing (either green to red, or red to green). That way you can make more of an informed choice as to whether to commit or not.

[judecatmad]

Lesson learnt and back down to the carpark to start braking from higher speeds.

Not sure if this is a valid braking technique to use from high speeds (:rofl: high speeds......I only ride a ginny so.....well, you know.......it goes faster than a mobility scooter.....LOL), but I utilise engine braking a lot if I ever have to stop at lights or traffic unexpectedly - both brakes and the engine braking is very effective!

However, some of the more experienced riders will no doubt now tell me that's a very dangerous thing to do and I must cease and desist with immediate effect!!! (still so much to learn! LOL)

[Jimmy B]

There have been several people say that they ease off a set distance when approaching lights, this is good advice. I also extend that theory to the open road when approaching intersections or side roads, especially if there is traffic waiting to turn across my path :yes:

[Disco Dan]

Not sure if this is a valid braking technique to use from high speeds (:rofl: high speeds......I only ride a ginny so.....well, you know.......it goes faster than a mobility scooter.....LOL), but I utilise engine braking a lot if I ever have to stop at lights or traffic unexpectedly - both brakes and the engine braking is very effective!

However, some of the more experienced riders will no doubt now tell me that's a very dangerous thing to do and I must cease and desist with immediate effect!!! (still so much to learn! LOL)

I doubt engine braking would get you into too much trouble, but on something larger - when braking and then down-shifting the rear can lock and you lose traction. As long as you dont 'drop' the clutch when engine braking and do it progressivly you should be ok!

Keep practicing braking, some people see winter on it's way and start worrying - Im looking at it as a chance to get really good at braking in all conditions. With traffic lights, I guess it's knowing your bike and how long it will take you to stop at any given moment.

[ManDownUnder]

With traffic lights, I guess it's knowing your bike and how long it will take you to stop at any given moment.

Yes but I would stress - you never want to brake faster than the bus behind you. Be aware of what's going on around you.

Stopping quickly is a skill every motorcyclist needs, in all conditions as you rightly point out, but don't put yourself in the line of fire.

[Viking Steven Poulson]

Rape and cleane them out of anything worth anything is the true viking way I know I am one there!!!!

[sunhuntin]

i always slow up a bit coming up to lights. the main set changes pretty quick. ill ease up a bit, and then lean forward to see down the side roads.
if theres cars there, ill get ready to stop, cos i know the light is likely to change. if theres no cars, ill gun it through, cos the light will stay green till a car comes.
the other main set ive learned only stays green long enough for one car to pass through [this is in the evening] so ive learned not to speed up, cos then i have to jam the brakes on.
i use a combo of engine and back brake mainly, but am training myself on the front as well.

[Drum]

What you experienced is what is called the 'dilemma zone'. When approaching traffic lights there is that distance away when you would definately go through if the lights turn amber, and a further distance back when you would definately stop. In between is the dilemma zone. The length of the dilemma zone increases with speed, as well as other factors including reaction time etc.

This is why internationally accepted good practice states that traffic signals should not be installed in high speed areas (such as SH2).

This is another example of poor engineering by Transit.

It is also worth noting that around 28% of crashes at signalised intersections are 'right angle' crashes, and around 42% are 'rear end' crashes. This suggests that if in doubt, you are better off going for it rather than braking hard to stop in time.

[kevie]

some good advice on this thread ....a couple i scratched my head on too heheh but hey thats the forums for you, with any topic theres varied opinions and techniques :)

I learned waaaaayyyyyy back to scan as far ahead of me as I can, assess what the traffic and conditions and possible hazzards are ahead of you and adjust as you feel the need.

In doing this I have averted a lot of possible 'hazardous situations' ..... still been in a few crashes I couldnt avoid tho hehe but hey ... isnt that the thrill of 2 wheels.

I do about a quarter million KMs a year on the road, in car, bigrig and motorcycle.
I tend to watch other motorists and guess what they are going to do, years ago in one of the Ambulance 'transport' training sessions the lecturer said something I always remembered...... "ALWAYS treat the other road users as idiots and expect them to do something stupid" I think with todays motorists its even more relevant today as it was way back then when motorists were more sensible and curteous.
when approaching traffic lights if cars are waiting at reds I expect an orange at any time and am already assessing what if it goes green to orange and can I stop rather than think of these scanarios when the light changes.
and also continually scan my mirrors so I not only know whats around and in front of me but whats happening behind, then you can be more aware of "if I suddenly stop will the guy behind me in time"..... dont yah love tailgaters ...... in my teen days I used to flick the 'A' stand to the tarmac to send 2 lines of sparks back to discourage the tailgater hehehe but sheesh ,..... killed the stand tho LOL and guess today that would get one a ticket LOL

Id recomend attending one or more of the training days the clubs run, they get advertised on here, most of my 'riding skills' were learned back then on a bike (and occasionally on my ass) but the up and comming riders have the advantage of a huge pool of training and experienced riders that are willing to teach and coach...... take the opportunity and attend such training and look at joining the local club as theres a lot of members that can help and advise.

[hitch]

There is some godd advise in the thread, I also ways slow the flow when approaching intersection etc, thanks for asking this question as I too have had some thoughts sorted.

[Roj]

cruising at 107 - 110km/h then with about 40m to go till the lights it turns orange. Now if i was in my car it would of been on my imaginary (too late to break now/ just gun it through mode) line.
Questions:
How far out from lights is too close to try and stop if it goes orange(so i can create my imaginary line)?
Should i have been able to stop (my poor braking technique or something?

There have been a number of threads on braking distances, a few figures came up, around 50 metres is an acceptable figure from your speed, but this needs a few disclaimers:
1 the rider has good techinique and good reaction times
2 the need to stop has been anticipated
3 the bike in question is in good condition
4 the road is in good condition (not wet etc)

( and there are always many variables to consider:dodge: )

a vehicle travelling at 100 k will travel about 28 metres in one second so if you take half a second to react you would go from 40 metres to around 26 metres from the lights before you would begin braking, for the average rider that is simply not enough distance to safely stop from 100 ks
At 110ks you are going about 30 metres per second so this coumpounds it even more

and has been pointed out you always have to worry about the vehicle behind you, being hit frombehind in a car at low speeds is not normally a major issue but on a bike even at low speeds the results are a lot worse.

[imdying]

It's a pain sometimes, most the lights seem phased well enough to give you enough time, but not always.

I normally go through the orange, easier/safer to keep going than stop. However, I always look for late right turning traffic. If there is a car wanting to turn right, I always go for the stopping option. Prick of a choice in the wet, but I'd rather slide on my butt than get run over :yes:

[Macktheknife]

Seems all the best advice has been given already so let me just re-emphasise,
Check ahead and anticipate light changes,
Check behind and anticipate idiots not stopping,
Have a 'committed' point of no return line,
Adjust your riding to the conditions,
Get a mentor or coach to work with you on your braking skills.

[Cajun]

didn't really read any of the replys, but there is a thing called stale green light,

If you did not see it turn from red/green, expect it at any time to change, so you should adjust your speed to be able to stop.

[Nasty]

didn't really read any of the replys, but there is a thing called stale green light,

If you did not see it turn from red/green, expect it at any time to change, so you should adjust your speed to be able to stop.

If you ride the road everyday ... then you should know the light phasing .. and approximately how it works ... Once I get that sussed I know how fast at what points I should be travelling to work in with the phases ...

[Grub]

I'd personally ask "Would the vehicle behind me be able to stop". You stopping fast might translate to you being mowed down by the driver behind you....

Never a truer word.

In that situation my first action is to look behind and see what that wanker is doing. As Cola says, for many the Orange means "floor it!" and that can mean right over the top of you being goodie-two-shoes.

[cynna]

there is normally oil and fuel on the road at lights where cars have been waiting. that doesnt help when u need to stop in a hurry

[rok-the-boat]

Problem with stopping quickly near junctions is all the oil and grease that acumulates there by waiting cars and trucks.

[sedge]

Um... If it changes and you think you can stop easily (without overbraking) stop... If you think you'll be braking harder than normal, don't stop.

You should never have to brake harder than you are conmfortable with.

Oh yeah... Conversly to your opinion, bikes stop a LOT faster than cars do, even in the wet.

Plus, the lights on the motorways have longer dwell times to expand the 'dilemma zone' (TM Drum) to your advantage.

Sedge.

[Daffyd]

One more idea...if you have someone behind you, touch the back brake pedal to bring on your stoplight. That would tell the following car that you're slowing down - even if you're not.