Counter steering at speed >100k's

[Zapf]

There is this thing I am trying to understand. Was at BRONZ's riding course a week ago and they taught us counter steering, all very well doing it at 60k's on the runway. But I was trying to pratice it when there no cars around on Sunday night, and I was trying to push the handle bars @ 100ks but they were solid as.

Now, am I doing something wrong? Or am I not pushing hard enought? Or is it just my bike?

cause I am scared of pushing too hard and going over. :spudwhat:

[loosebruce]

There is this thing I am trying to understand. Was at BRONZ's riding course a week ago and they taught us counter steering, all very well doing it at 60k's on the runway. But I was trying to pratice it when there no cars around on Sunday night, and I was trying to push the handle bars @ 100ks but they were solid as.

Now, am I doing something wrong? Or am I not pushing hard enought? Or is it just my bike?

cause I am scared of pushing too hard and going over. :spudwhat:

You won't tip over zapf so don't worry bout pushing too hard k. The faster you get the more input you will have to put in, start using your upper body to and you should be sweat mate. Plus the VTR's bars are alot wider than more sportier bikes so i'd imgaine you'd need to put a bit more effort in, correct me id i'm wrong.

[Mr Skid]

cause I am scared of pushing too hard and going over. :spudwhat:
Harden up mate! Naked bikes are designed to be thrown down the road! :Pokey:

Someone knowledgeable will no doubt be able to offer a better explanation, but I would think the caster angle would have something to do with it. I can't find the specs on the vtr250 but I'd guess from sitting on yours that it'd have more conservative geometry than my cbr250. I understand this would assist with straight line stability, but would require more effort to tip into a corner..

[Mongoose]

You won't tip over zapf so don't worry bout pushing too hard k. The faster you get the more input you will have to put in, start using your upper body to and you should be sweat mate. Plus the VTR's bars are alot wider than more sportier bikes so i'd imgaine you'd need to put a bit more effort in, correct me id i'm wrong.


I would have thought the wider the bars the lesser the input from the rider needed. Wider bars= more leverage?

[loosebruce]

I would have thought the wider the bars the lesser the input from the rider needed. Wider bars= more leverage?

I am corrected, thanks.

[Vagabond]

There is this thing I am trying to understand. Was at BRONZ's riding course a week ago and they taught us counter steering, all very well doing it at 60k's on the runway. But I was trying to pratice it when there no cars around on Sunday night, and I was trying to push the handle bars @ 100ks but they were solid as.

Now, am I doing something wrong? Or am I not pushing hard enought? Or is it just my bike?

cause I am scared of pushing too hard and going over. :spudwhat:
You musta been :sleep: ing when they told you to push on the bars cause you can push as much as you want, most that'll happen is maybe your ass will slide backwards on the seat :)
Never been on any riding courses myself but I do know that it's a push and pull on either side of the bars :shit:
Well thats my 2cents worth !

[sAsLEX]

its all to do with gyroscopic forces that get larger as speed increases, this is why it is harder at high speed, and why sometimes you see race bikes continue around corners(GP in SA) without rider due to the resistance from the gyroscopic forces against falling over.

Torque= force X distance long bars less force

Oh and couter steering works because of a thing called gyroscopic progression, thinks back to 7th form physics, in which inputs on a gyroscope are expressed 90 degress further around. Ie you push the bar left and the bike leans in the vertical plae rather than the horizintal plane.

ps. up late doing uni work so this could all be dribble :sleep:

[Firefight]

its all to do with gyroscopic forces that get larger as speed increases, this is why it is harder at high speed, and why sometimes you see race bikes continue around corners(GP in SA) without rider due to the resistance from the gyroscopic forces against falling over.

Torque= force X distance long bars less force

Oh and couter steering works because of a thing called gyroscopic progression, thinks back to 7th form physics, in which inputs on a gyroscope are expressed 90 degress further around. Ie you push the bar left and the bike leans in the vertical plae rather than the horizintal plane.

:sleep:


Ah yeah, what he said,... I think,... or you could just go out and ride the dam bike ! and see what happens... Fuck Alex, maybe you could bring a black board/white board to the AB on saturday and give me a quick lecture, so I can have a better ride...

F/F :Pokey:

F/F :Pokey:

[James Deuce]

Once you are doing more than 20km.hr or so all steering on a bike is countersteering, whether you realise it or not. Just relax when you are attempting to conciously countersteer and you will feel it going on. If you are tensed and unhappy you won;t have any preocessing power left over to monitor steering inputs.

[toads]

This countersteering thing is something I understand but am reluctant to try at speed, ( for me this equals over 60km) mainly cos I am scared of getting it wrong and losing control. I know this is ridiculous but I am still too chicken to do a rapid swerve around an object on the road, Pete has it down to a fine art and thinks it's cool. The same goes for getting the knee down a bit, on a tight corner, I think it's kinda tragic looking on a cruiser, but who knows one day I might have to try it in order to get around the bend, the scary thing is just how much lean can you have before losing it?, you really can't tell until you do can off can you?

[Zed]

...the scary thing is just how much lean can you have before losing it?, you really can't tell until you do can off can you?
A good rider will get to know his/her motorcycle's capabilities, this most definately includes how far over it is able to lean in a corner. There are several ways of obtaining this knowledge, for instance you can lean the bike over while it is stationary (with the help of another person) and see how far it will lean before any parts touch the ground! One day you may need to lean your bike far into a corner for emergency's sake and if you don't know the bikes limits you will probably bin it.

In saying all of that, if you ride like an absolute granny and freak out when the bike leans over & brake heavily on every corner you approach - forget about it! :brick: Leaning the bike over is supposed to be the fun part. :rolleyes:

[riffer]

Wkid_one offered some advice on this a while back, which I tried and found most useful. I'll try and repeat what he said (apologies wkid if I've misinterpreted it).

An easy way to get the countersteering going is by leaning forward with the shoulder ie if you want to go around a left hand corner just lean a bit forward with the left shoulder and you'll find yourself going left.

I'm not too sure why this works for me, I guess its because of a combination of countersteering and weight transferance.

I found the best way to get countersteering sorted was to find a road with a lot of reasonably gentle sweeping bends and really just try and relax, lean forward and feel the bike move where you want it. I practice my countersteering on the road between the bottom of Haywards Hill (Whitby) and Paremata - it winds around the sea shore and has some great corners. You can practice getting your knee down there too.

I've never had to concentrate too hard on it - maybe it came naturally. Or maybe its because I'm a bit of a fatty - 5 foot 10 and 95 kgs...:laugh:

[tuscan]

Somewhere easy in central Auckland to practise cornering is the domain but sometimes there's quite a bit of traffic. :2guns:

I go through there everyday on my way to uni and am slowly beginning to realise what I can do on the bike... :cool:

[vifferman]

An easy way to get the countersteering going is by leaning forward with the shoulder ie if you want to go around a left hand corner just lean a bit forward with the left shoulder and you'll find yourself going left.Yeah, and another thing (in the same vein) is to lead with your chin. I can't remember who said this (some racer, I think), but it works!
Whether you are consciously counter-steering or not, it's probably happening anyway. Having developed aaaarrrrrrRRthritis in the last few years, I now notice more how much pressure is on my wrists, and hence noticed that I'm countersteering without any conscious effort, but also on some corners the interplay betwen the bike's geometry and the corner's geometry (hill slope, camber, radius, etc) mean that the bike's wanting to run wide a bit and extra effort is required.

The most important thing is to be relaxed, smooth and gentle. Subtle inputs are key.

[Zed]

Somewhere easy in central Auckland to practise cornering is the domain but sometimes there's quite a bit of traffic. :2guns:

I go through there everyday on my way to uni and am slowly beginning to realise what I can do on the bike... :cool:
Yes, that entrance at Stanley St by the tennis courts there is a nice small stretch of twisties into the domain.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Somewhere easy in central Auckland to practise cornering is the domain but sometimes there's quite a bit of traffic. :2guns:

I go through there everyday on my way to uni and am slowly beginning to realise what I can do on the bike... :cool:

Just be careful you youngun.... I had a big rear wheel slide up that hairpin on weds

[FROSTY]

Dude a bit of simple advise here -Just relax.
At your stage of riding your brain is having to process a shit load of new information. -Brakes,cars,tyre grip,indicators etc.
It is totally fantastic that you want to improve your riding But focussing on countersteering silly. Im NOT saying its not important BUT Il betya $100 you are already doing it without realising.
You wont fall off by pushing too hard on the bars -You might find you oversteer but thats not gonna be a problem on a bike at your pace.

[toads]

A good rider will get to know his/her motorcycle's capabilities, this most definately includes how far over it is able to lean in a corner. There are several ways of obtaining this knowledge, for instance you can lean the bike over while it is stationary (with the help of another person) and see how far it will lean before any parts touch the ground! One day you may need to lean your bike far into a corner for emergency's sake and if you don't know the bikes limits you will probably bin it.

In saying all of that, if you ride like an absolute granny and freak out when the bike leans over & brake heavily on every corner you approach - forget about it! :brick: Leaning the bike over is supposed to be the fun part. :rolleyes:

I am an absolute granny Zed!

[tuscan]

Just be careful you youngun.... I had a big rear wheel slide up that hairpin on weds
Yeah, especially if its wet... :shit:

[dhunt]

For me it was all natural, it wasn't until I was trying to show someone how I went round corners and thought about what I did, did I realise I was actually turning the other way (counter-steering).

I really don't think it is anything to worry about it pretty much happens by itself.

David

[pete376403]

I don't think you can turn a bike (apart from at walking pace) without countersteering, whether you consciously do it or not. I understand it is one reason people (especially new riders) crash into things they are trying to avoid - eg there is an object on your left that you don't want to hit - instictively you turn the bars to the right. If you have any sort of speed on at all this immediately flicks the bike onto a left turn.

[Zapf]

tkns. once I get my jacket back from amps then more pratice for me :)

I just go out to the highway at like sunday or monday night, and there is pretty much zero traffic as everyones asleep. And counter steer between the cat eyes.

think I remembered the push part, will try with pull as well this time :rolleyes:

[spudchucka]

This link has some relevant articles about steering etc.

http://www.bikepoint.co.nz/portal/alias__bikepointnz/tabID__5779/BikeTipType__tech/DesktopDefault.aspx

You are countersteering all the time on a M/C, whether you realise it or not.

[marty]

have a look here too:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3397&highlight=countersteering

[Quasievil]

I don't think you can turn a bike (apart from at walking pace) without countersteering, whether you consciously do it or not. I understand it is one reason people (especially new riders) crash into things they are trying to avoid - eg there is an object on your left that you don't want to hit - instictively you turn the bars to the right. If you have any sort of speed on at all this immediately flicks the bike onto a left turn.
Thats a fact you cant turn a bike by leaning you must counter steer, someone posted a site where this is all explained in detail, a guy put false bars on his bike that were not connected to the wheels in anyway and he tried to turn and simply he couldnt he just went off in a bike dictated direction without any control avaiolable by shifting his weight. ant be bothered finding the site but its here somewhere.

[sedge]

Ummm, seeing as no-one has mentioned it... bring in and drop your elbows and push/pull more parallel with the road (or triple trees) otherwise you are putting all your effort into trying to bend the bars.

I find I kind of rotate myself 10 degrees on the bike, leading hip/shoulder go forward and down into the corner, drops my weight over the inside nicely and makes pushing easier coz I can use my outside foot to help the push on the bar on the opposite side...I keep the inside peg unweighted so my leg can flap around and it doesn't upset me as much when the peg or boot grounds.

It's hard to describe without sounding like some kind of comedy clown riding routine.

Actually I only do this when I can see around or know the road well and can prepare for the corners, otherwise I tend to just kind of push the bars and keep the flappy bits in... Too lazy a rider most of the time.

Cheers,

Sedge.

[riffer]

I find I kind of rotate myself 10 degrees on the bike, leading hip/shoulder go forward and down into the corner, drops my weight over the inside nicely and makes pushing easier coz I can use my outside foot to help the push on the bar on the opposite side...I keep the inside peg unweighted so my leg can flap around and it doesn't upset me as much when the peg or boot grounds.
Yup, you just about described exactly how it happens Sedge. I sometimes feel like I'm pushing with my foot as well. Sometimes when lanesplitting it feels like I'm steering the bike just with the inputs of my feet, but you're right, it's just pushing the opposite side bar isn't it.

[sedge]

Heh heh...Celtic... When I lanesplit I tend to ride up the middle in a straight line. If you are countersteering, flapping your legs around and grounding the pegs your commute from the Hutt must be about 2 1/2 minutes. Fun tho :)

[Motu]

Try riding a trials bike sometime - you can control it with just input through the pegs,remember walking beside your pushbike holding onto the seat? Don't overanalise countersteering,as others have mentioned,you can't ride a bike without it,that's how you go around corners.Me? I use my shoulders and wide bars,just lean on the inside bar.Riding on gravel roads I'm working the bars a lot more than street riders - flap,flap,flap,who cares,just get the job done.

[Blakamin]

Ummm, seeing as no-one has mentioned it... bring in and drop your elbows and push/pull more parallel with the road (or triple trees) otherwise you are putting all your effort into trying to bend the bars.

I find I kind of rotate myself 10 degrees on the bike, leading hip/shoulder go forward and down into the corner, drops my weight over the inside nicely and makes pushing easier coz I can use my outside foot to help the push on the bar on the opposite side...I keep the inside peg unweighted so my leg can flap around and it doesn't upset me as much when the peg or boot grounds.

It's hard to describe without sounding like some kind of comedy clown riding routine.

Actually I only do this when I can see around or know the road well and can prepare for the corners, otherwise I tend to just kind of push the bars and keep the flappy bits in... Too lazy a rider most of the time.

Cheers,

Sedge.


Holy Flappin DuckButts, Batman..... I just realized thats what i do!!!.. no inside foot weight in case i get caught up, but far enuff over to... wow.... what a thought...better not tell the missus :eek5:

[aff-man]

hmmm i was in this situation a little while ago. I was quite interested to see how the bike manouvers so for all sweeting corners i kinda pushed the bars(a little exaggerated) well not so much as pushed but felt what the bike did. found out the bike dipped into corners heaps more and felt more natural. So tried it on a ride/ motorway same results. Thus i also found out that i when doing this you gotta get body psition right otherwise bike doesn't like it to much. (which is what everyone else has basically said so :stupid: :doh: )

[scroter]

ive forgotten what happens but i know that if you dont counter steer it wont steer unless your doing under about 20 km. even if you think your not doin it you are. counter steering should be automatic and you should practice it enough so you do it automatically. other things that can play a part is suspension settings and if your braking while leaning or not. in fact on an old bike i used to use the brakes to help change direction quickly. if you still struggle with it remember this RELAX AND LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

[Mongoose]

ive forgotten what happens but i know that if you dont counter steer it wont steer unless your doing under about 20 km. even if you think your not doin it you are. counter steering should be automatic and you should practice it enough so you do it automatically. other things that can play a part is suspension settings and if your braking while leaning or not. in fact on an old bike i used to use the brakes to help change direction quickly. if you still struggle with it remember this RELAX AND LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.

That last bit f advice is a very valid bit. If you look at the pothole/pedestrian/cage then guess what, that is exactly what you will hit.
Guys used to off road riding tend to autmatically look for escape routes, that fence/gorsebush etc etc is always easier to find a way around than thru.

[DEATH_INC.]

That last bit f advice is a very valid bit. If you look at the pothole/pedestrian/cage then guess what, that is exactly what you will hit.
Guys used to off road riding tend to autmatically look for escape routes, that fence/gorsebush etc etc is always easier to find a way around than thru.
Yeh,true that!I've had a hand momentaraly paralized from a large input of stimulation from a gorsebush......
Here's an interesting thing,countersteering works when yer doing wheelies too,watch me or some of the other guys on a bumpy off camber bit of road,we're turning the bars left/right like crazy just to keep going straight....
You can steer a small amount without countersteering too,try riding along without holding the bars,you can steer a bit by pushing on the pegs,but not lots....

[Posh Tourer :P]

You can steer a small amount without countersteering too,try riding along without holding the bars,you can steer a bit by pushing on the pegs,but not lots....

Watch the bars when you do it though..... they twitch the wrong way when you push, which tips you into the turn. ie the wheel initially turns right a little when you lean left and then the bike tips into the turn

[wkid_one]

The degree of difficulty depends on your arm angle. Bend your elbows so that your lower arms are in line with the ground and then push - you will find this a lot easier as in the 'traditional' riding position you are trying to push both down and away.

The upshot is, as discussed on here before, the ONLY WAY to steer a bike at speeds greater than ~20kph is countersteering. This is why we fall of when we take our trainer wheels off our bikes - as we try to steer in to the corner, which is only applicable for vehicles with greater than 2 wheels.

Zapf - whilst you were practising to countersteer at 100kph....you will be surprised to know, if you have been riding at 100kph up until now, unless you have been doing it in a straight line - you have already been countersteering.

[Skyryder]

Somewhere on this forum there's a link to countersteering. Do a post search on my name and you should be able to find it. Whenever these countersteering threads come up everbodys got a bit of the picture. Here's my bit. Forget about the tek stuff on the saddle. Take the line, lean the bike and gun it. If you do not go on your line or where you mean, then you are out of control and taken the line too fast. Slow down and try again. And forget about the bloody handle bars, they are there to hang onto and nothing else, I say with toungue in cheek and my stomach in my mouth.........at speed.

Skyryder

[moko]

Just relax when you are attempting to conciously countersteer and you will feel it going on. If you are tensed and unhappy you won;t have any preocessing power left over to monitor steering inputs.

Relaxing is a big part of bike control,as Jim says if you`re tense and mentally analysing what you`re doing you`ll tend to over-react and cause yourself all kinds of problems.I heard a girl saying on another forum that she`d been shown how to countersteer but she was heaving the bars around without concentrating on anything else and kept falling off!Thing is with everything from counter-steering,braking,leaning or any other aspect of riding dont walk before you can run.Take it easy and dont try to be a hot-shot straight off and you`ll find your riding becomes almost automatic and you`ll just "do" counter-steering,same as you no doubt change gear e.t.c. without every one being a major thought process.go at a bend thinking "shit,gotta get the counter-steering right" and straight away you`ve tensed up and worse probably not thinking about other aspects of your riding.Experience is a massive part of riding and you aint going to get that in a few days,take your time and this time next year you`ll be amazed that it was ever a problem

[wkid_one]

Don't listen to anyone - get Keith Codes Twist of the Wrist books 1 and 2 and read them - this will give you all the knowledge you will ever need. Then just practise it.

[Bob]

Lot of good words of advice given here. For my part, I work on being relaxed on the bike (nice, loose shoulders), arms are bent so they can work like levers/pistons/shock absorbers, I lean my shoulder into the bend and also look through the bend at at where I want to go.

Leading with your eyes/chin is really important... the bike will follow your eyes - where you look, your shoulders are aimed towards, which in turn makes your arms move in the direction needed to aim everything else that way as well.

If you are able to move your body a bit as well (maybe getting yourself a bit more to the inside of the turn, so your ass is slightly off saddle and towards the side the bike is turning towards), that helps as well - but isn't something I can do all of the time as I have a disc removed from my spine!

Someone mentioned the 'Twist of the Wrist' books by Keith Code. I've not read the books, but I have seen the DVD and Code speaks sense. He breaks things down into segments... making it easier to learn things bit by bit.

Something he said that is well worth thinking about... riding slower to go faster. It might sound odd, but rather than trying to fly at a turn you know well, try taking it slower than you normally would attempt, working more on getting your braking right, getting in the right gear and taking the turn as smoothly as possible. And do it again... and again... and again... until it all comes naturally. Then - and only then - try upping the pace a little.

I always work on the basis of "slow in, fast out"... do all of the above, then gradually up the pace as I go through the bend. I used to keep a constant throttle, but I've found gently opening up as I go through means I am in a position to crack on once the bend reaches its end.

Hope this all makes sense to you! I think it does to me....

[James Deuce]

Another little trick I've found useful on the road is to go through a corner a gear higher than you would think was necessary (two stroke riders should probably ignore that, as I am not willing to pay for fouled spark plugs). Jackie Stewart, F1 World Champ used to do that as it put the engine in the meat of it's torque band and helped keep the suspension stable during the mid corner transition. It also gives you more revs to play with on the exit, and makes the whole process feel slower and smoother.

I also try to keep my eyes level with the horizon, as it helps keep your balance oriented.

[Jamezo]

at < ~20km/h steering takes is done 'normally'

at > ~20km/h countersteering is used

so,so,so,so what happens at the point in the middle :shit: use neither? (it's disturbing me...)

[Mongoose]

at < ~20km/h steering takes is done 'normally'

at > ~20km/h countersteering is used

so,so,so,so what happens at the point in the middle :shit: use neither? (it's disturbing me...)


You are disturbed :Pokey: :doobey: :bash:

[Wonko]

It's simple, the bike know's which way you want to turn and just turns that way. If yours doesn't know which way to turn, you need to spend more time with it. Take it out to dinner and a movie, buy it a glass of fresh oil. Soon enough she'll know where you want to go before you do. :bleh:

[Biff]

Lot's of good advice here buddy. Don't worry, It'll all fall into place very soon. But you will spend the rest of your biking life learning. That's the fun of it.

As has already been said, you're probably thinking of a hundred things at once at the moment, it'll all come naturally to you very soon.

What I found useful, which I'll probably get chastised for mentioning here as it may be even more for you to think about, is that when I'm mid corner or about to enter a tight corner and get the feeling that I may need a little more help than just counter steering, I hang a knee out. Not in an attempt to get it down – don’t even think about that for a while, if ever. Don't pop it out suddenly either, but ease it out. You'll find that the extra weight of the knee leaning out into the corner helps. In addition, as said, use your chin, look where you want to go and you'll find that your shoulder dips ever so slightly. Mind does anyway and I find it a great help. I actually over emphasise my shoulders anyway, pushing from them to steer with the palms of my hands.

If you're ever mid corner and don't think you're gonna make it, or that the bikes leaning over too far, the tyres are gonna loose grip (which is highly unlikely) etc, DON'T PANIC, just keep looking where you want to go, not where you’re scared you might go, attempt more counter steer, knee out, chin out, NO BRAKES (this will only make the bike stand up, unless you have a posh dual braking system like mine, but that's another debatable story, especially for the sportier types here - of which I'm not one).

Here's an exercise I learnt on my advanced biking course which helped me enormously:

Pick a set of twisty corners you know. Now ride them at say 20K - 50K slower than you normally would ( watch the speed limits posted on bends, they're not just there simply as eye candy). Now ride the bend, again and again and again etc. Gradually increasing your speed on each consecutive go until you gain confidence and reach somewhere close to the posted speed limit or feel comfortable. Keep doing this time and time again, preferably where the bends are left and right turns.

Above all else - be safe and enjoy.

[Motu]

at < ~20km/h steering takes is done 'normally'

at > ~20km/h countersteering is used

so,so,so,so what happens at the point in the middle :shit: use neither? (it's disturbing me...)

I've heard that on LSR bikes the steering dynamics change throughout the speed range,maybe it's cyclic,a waveform.If speed was unlimited how many times would it happen?

[Bonez]

This countersteering thing is something I understand but am reluctant to try at speed, ( for me this equals over 60km) mainly cos I am scared of getting it wrong and losing control. I know this is ridiculous but I am still too chicken to do a rapid swerve around an object on the road, Pete has it down to a fine art and thinks it's cool. The same goes for getting the knee down a bit, on a tight corner, I think it's kinda tragic looking on a cruiser, but who knows one day I might have to try it in order to get around the bend, the scary thing is just how much lean can you have before losing it?, you really can't tell until you do can off can you?After a while countersteering does become natural. trust me. As for knee downs-never had to do it to get around a corner yet.

[Quasievil]

I find dropping the insdie shoulder (shoulder on the inside of the corner)

helps push the bar for increased turning angle especially if I need to tighten up on a corner

[Wonko]

I've heard that on LSR bikes the steering dynamics change throughout the speed range,maybe it's cyclic,a waveform.If speed was unlimited how many times would it happen?

I would have thought that the physic's of counter steering would work at any speed, it's just that the effect of gravity would make the bike fall over before you noticed any real change in direction

[Jamezo]

I would have thought that the physic's of counter steering would work at any speed, it's just that the effect of gravity would make the bike fall over before you noticed any real change in direction

not necessarily; as I can discern, the ability of the bike to be turned by the countersteering force grows proportionally (possibly exponentially? I know the force experienced at the circumference of the wheel will be raised exponentially, but does this necessarily translate to the gyroscopic 'intertia'?) to the speed of rotation of the front wheel.

the question is, how does the ability of the bike to be turned by steering into the corners, change with the velocity of the bike itself? I guess we have to build a bike with wheels of minimal mass, to negate the gyroscopic force, and see how it's cornering behaviour changes with speed. that is if it will stay upright! I think a good compromise would be to have only the front wheel 'massless', and have the back wheel normal or maybe heavier to keep the bike upright.

sounds like a good physics thesis!

[WINJA]

A good rider will get to know his/her motorcycle's capabilities, this most definately includes how far over it is able to lean in a corner. There are several ways of obtaining this knowledge, for instance you can lean the bike over while it is stationary (with the help of another person) and see how far it will lean before any parts touch the ground! One day you may need to lean your bike far into a corner for emergency's sake and if you don't know the bikes limits you will probably bin it.

In saying all of that, if you ride like an absolute granny and freak out when the bike leans over & brake heavily on every corner you approach - forget about it! :brick: Leaning the bike over is supposed to be the fun part. :rolleyes:
MAXIMUM LEAN ANGLE CAN REDUCE WITH SPEED AS SUSPENSION COMPRESSES

[WINJA]

not necessarily; as I can discern, the ability of the bike to be turned by the countersteering force grows proportionally (possibly exponentially? I know the force experienced at the circumference of the wheel will be raised exponentially, but does this necessarily translate to the gyroscopic 'intertia'?) to the speed of rotation of the front wheel.

the question is, how does the ability of the bike to be turned by steering into the corners, change with the velocity of the bike itself? I guess we have to build a bike with wheels of minimal mass, to negate the gyroscopic force, and see how it's cornering behaviour changes with speed. that is if it will stay upright! I think a good compromise would be to have only the front wheel 'massless', and have the back wheel normal or maybe heavier to keep the bike upright.

sounds like a good physics thesis!
A BIG PART OF CORNERING BEHAVIOUR IS DOWN TO CRANK WEIGHT. HAVE YOU EVER RIDDEN A GSXR600 AND GSXR1000 BACK TO BACK ON THE SAME ROAD. IF YOU HAVE A STANDARD 120 UP FRONT AND A 180 ON BOTH BIKES REARS RUN THE SAME GEOMETRY AND THE 600 TURNS FASTER ESPCIALLY ON THE 2ND AND 3RD CONSECUTIVE CORNER. THE BIKES DIFFERENCE IN WET WEIGHT IS MINIMAL

[Jantar]

not necessarily; as I can discern, the ability of the bike to be turned by the countersteering force grows proportionally (possibly exponentially? I know the force experienced at the circumference of the wheel will be raised exponentially, but does this necessarily translate to the gyroscopic 'intertia'?) to the speed of rotation of the front wheel.

the question is, how does the ability of the bike to be turned by steering into the corners, change with the velocity of the bike itself? I guess we have to build a bike with wheels of minimal mass, to negate the gyroscopic force, and see how it's cornering behaviour changes with speed. that is if it will stay upright! I think a good compromise would be to have only the front wheel 'massless', and have the back wheel normal or maybe heavier to keep the bike upright.

sounds like a good physics thesis!

The gyroscopic force, and hence the force required at the handlebars increases with the square of the rotational velocity.

Here's a simple experiment you can do at home that will answer most of the questions raised here:

Hang a single loop of string from the roof of your shed or garage.
Take a pushbike wheel and let one end of the axle hang in the loop of string while you support the other end of the axle so that the wheel is vertical as if on a bike.
With your free hand start the wheel spinning quite fast.
Let the wheel go so that it is now supported only by the string on one end of the axle.
The wheel will remain vertical as it spins.
The center of gravity (weight) of the wheel is offset from the point of suspension, trying to pull the unsupported end of the axle down. This is the same as you trying to counter steer.
The wheel instead of tipping down on that side will turn such that the direction of turn is 90 degrees lagging the force of gravity.
The turning effect will appear to increase as the wheel slows down, until eventually the force of gravity will overcome the gyroscopic force.

Counter steering is exactly the same, with the small exception that in trying to turn the wheel we actually cause the wheel to lean. It will not turn, but it can only lean by causing the whole bike to lean over with it. At higher speeds the amount of force required to cause the bike to lean doesn't change, but the handlebars will feel more rigid. That's because due to gyroscopic force they ARE more rigid. It is force applied in a turning diection, not any actual turning of the bars, that is multiplied into a change in angle of lean.

[notme]

Hey if you want nice sweeping and empty roads to practice all this theoretical physics on - or just to go for a ride, come out to Botany Downs area, heaps of back roads out this way! There are unfinished subdivisions that are totally car free on the weekends and open back roads that are nicely sealed and not full of potholes!

I'm always up for a ride on the weekends or a clear evening so PM/email me if you're keen!

[Jamezo]

The gyroscopic force, and hence the force required at the handlebars increases with the square of the rotational velocity.

Here's a simple experiment you can do at home that will answer most of the questions raised here:

Hang a single loop of string from the roof of your shed or garage.
Take a pushbike wheel and let one end of the axle hang in the loop of string while you support the other end of the axle so that the wheel is vertical as if on a bike.
With your free hand start the wheel spinning quite fast.
Let the wheel go so that it is now supported only by the string on one end of the axle.
The wheel will remain vertical as it spins.
The center of gravity (weight) of the wheel is offset from the point of suspension, trying to pull the unsupported end of the axle down. This is the same as you trying to counter steer.
The wheel instead of tipping down on that side will turn such that the direction of turn is 90 degrees lagging the force of gravity.
The turning effect will appear to increase as the wheel slows down, until eventually the force of gravity will overcome the gyroscopic force.

Counter steering is exactly the same, with the small exception that in trying to turn the wheel we actually cause the wheel to lean. It will not turn, but it can only lean by causing the whole bike to lean over with it. At higher speeds the amount of force required to cause the bike to lean doesn't change, but the handlebars will feel more rigid. That's because due to gyroscopic force they ARE more rigid. It is force applied in a turning diection, not any actual turning of the bars, that is multiplied into a change in angle of lean.

eg-zacktly!

teh smartness.

[inlinefour]

There is this thing I am trying to understand. Was at BRONZ's riding course a week ago and they taught us counter steering, all very well doing it at 60k's on the runway. But I was trying to pratice it when there no cars around on Sunday night, and I was trying to push the handle bars @ 100ks but they were solid as.

Now, am I doing something wrong? Or am I not pushing hard enought? Or is it just my bike?

cause I am scared of pushing too hard and going over. :spudwhat:

Either you will be knocked off or come off from going too fast. Personally I'd rather it was the latter as the only painfull accident involved an arse in a cage :brick:

[fritter]

Plus the VTR's bars are alot wider than more sportier bikes so i'd imgaine you'd need to put a bit more effort in, correct me id i'm wrong.

It's less effort to push on wider bars, not more. The sportier bikes tip easier coz they have sharper steering angles and stuff like that...

If you concentrate on pushing the bar with your elbows lower it makes a difference - so that you are pushing the bar forward rather than down.