What's the difference between a shovel-head and an iron-head?

[Wired1]

Can some please explain the difference between the different harley engine evolutions - ie pan head, iron, shovel, evo etc. And I'd like some opinions on the older motors in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance and cost of parts if you know. Thanks...

[scumdog]

Big blocks - Flathead, Knuckle-head, Pan-head, Shovel-head, Evolution, Twin-cam

Sportsters - Flathead, Iron-head, Evolution

An Ironhead is a Sportster equivalent of the 'bib' Harleys Shovel-head.

Some heads will interchange in the 'big' Harley range but not between Sportsters and 'big' Harleys. (Stand to be corrected on this but true to my knowledge).

[boomer]

one looks like a shovel the other looks like an iron. they both have in common that they're form old peoples bikes.

[scumdog]

one looks like a shovel the other looks like an iron. they both have in common that they're form old peoples bikes.

Yup, both almost older than any known Jap bike..:dodge:


And did you mean 'from'?

[Ixion]

Harley nomenclature has always seemed incomprehensibly confusing.

I assume a flathead is a sidevalve? The others are OHV ? And an ironhea presumably because it is cast iron ?

So what are the approximate ages of each "era" ?

[scumdog]

Harley nomenclature has always seemed incomprehensibly confusing.

I assume a flathead is a sidevalve? The others are OHV ? And an ironhea presumably because it is cast iron ?

So what are the approximate ages of each "era" ?

Yep re the flat-head stuff - all hot-rod and motorbike types into 'old-stuff'refer to a side-valve as a 'flathead' .

An Iron-head? yep, because it's cast iron.

But the age-brackets of each? - you're on your own and need to google them, I know most but likely to get one or two a year or so out - and then hooo-boy! the KB pedants will home in for the kill!!

[Ixion]

Hah. I actually found a site (http://www.factoryfat.com/hdmotorhistory.html)that explains it reasonably simply.

So, in essence:

Pre 1936 : Side valves. Flathead
1936 to 1948 : Cast iron OHV heads. Knucklehead, ironhead
1948 to 2001: Alloy head OHV. Panhead, shovelhead, evolution
2001 on : OHC.

Now, that simplifies the mystery muchly.

Now all I have to work out is the whole Fatboy, Lowboy, Tallboy, Fatbob, Shortbob, Wetbob, Road King, Road Queen stuff.

[Wired1]

What a mine of information thanks.
So what's with the AMF era bikes? I'm looking at a '78 panhead 1000 sporty and have heard that this is not the best age Harley to buy. Any thoughts? biased opinions welcome...

[scumdog]

What a mine of information thanks.
So what's with the AMF era bikes? I'm looking at a '78 panhead 1000 sporty and have heard that this is not the best age Harley to buy. Any thoughts? biased opinions welcome...

Hmm, had an AMF 1000cc Ironhead m'self, a 1981, probably one of the last AMFs.

Thought it was 'modern' at the time, little did I know!! (But it WAS a Harley!).

Yes, when AMF had the reins of Harley they were more concerned with output than quality so their product tended to be rife with problems and a mix-up of parts.

Having said that, by now any AMF problems would have shown and been sorted, chances are the bike has already been rebuilt at least once.

Go for it if the bike tests out ok and the price is right - but don't expect to be able to flog it - or get it to stop in a hurry.

[Edbear]

The descriptions were also based on the appearance of the motors. What the rocker covers reminded people of, eg. Panhead, knucklehead, etc.

The Evo's were said to be the first of the "reliable" motors, whereby an owner could expect a consistent level of reliability and "useability" from a Harley. It was the Evo motors that turned the corner for Harley Davidson and began bringing the bikes into the mainstream markets. Check some of the mileages of Evo Harleys, they have done some big miles.

I still reckon Harley's are too dear, but then they do tend to hold their prices well. My favourite is the 1200 Sporty with the twin discs. But my head says I did the right thing with the C50T and I do love riding it, it's a "feel good" bike! One day when I'm rich...

[scumdog]

I still reckon Harley's are too dear, but then they do tend to hold their prices well. My favourite is the 1200 Sporty with the twin discs. But my head says I did the right thing with the C50T and I do love riding it, it's a "feel good" bike! One day when I'm rich...

Then have I got the bike for you - 1200, twin disc front, top order, looks like new.

Oh, of course, it's an Evo.............

[pete376403]

deleted post -

[sunhuntin]

my partners got a shovel and a pan [65 pan, 83 shovel] love em both...ive pillioned on a few harleys, and the shovel would be my favourite. followed close by the pan. i just love the look! im dying to eventually by his ol pan. tis a little to short in the seat to fit two, but the shovel had heaps of room.

both are full dressers....effectively he taught me how to safely load a bike for travel. the pan he wrecked 12 years ago, and that gave it a speed wobble in the front end, but i think that could be sorted out.

most harley dealers wont touch anything older than an evo, meaning the aftermarket parts are an essential for maintaining.
i remember a friend of his brought over a shovel engine that needed internal work done. the nearest dealer wouldnt touch it. he damn near set the house on fire taking a blow torch to it! turned out the bolt [?] had a left hand thread.. which was only discovered after cutting, griding, and otherwise wrecking the part. lol.

when i get a harley...itll be as old as possible. ideally a 65 pan, full dresser.

[Shadows]

Can some please explain the difference between the different harley engine evolutions - ie pan head, iron, shovel, evo etc. And I'd like some opinions on the older motors in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance and cost of parts if you know. Thanks...


What a mine of information thanks.
So what's with the AMF era bikes? I'm looking at a '78 panhead 1000 sporty and have heard that this is not the best age Harley to buy. Any thoughts? biased opinions welcome...

There is one very simple thing to remember. Trust me on this.
Unless you are very very rich....
DO NOT, WHATEVER YOU DO, BUY AN IRONHEAD SPORTSTER!

Get a 5 speed Evo or later. Something from the '90s or 00's. As little as only a couple of grand dearer than the piece of shite you are considering and it won't cost you another $5K to bring it up to scratch. Unless it is a rarity, and I'm talking rocking horse shit with hens' teeth in it topped off with snowballs from hell rare, it will need it.

Most bike shops won't want to know about it, either.

[Wired1]

So you don't like iron heads?
What about the 883 sportster. A bit smaller in cc's but these are an evo right?

[Motu]

The first Sportsters were 883,AMF made the 1,000cc because capacities were ramping up in that era.When they made the Evo they used 883 as a ''traditional'' capacity.

Cast iron Sporty's take some serious commitment,I would far rather own a Britsh bike from the same era than a cast iron Sportster.They have quite a bizare agucultural design....sorta,let's put this bit on here,and then bolt this over here.Seems to be no conceptual design of a complete bike like a British bike.They can be made to make a shit load of real power that is far far to much for the bike to handle - it's a real spincture clampng rush to unleash a well worked iron sporty on a straight road....I just haven't got what it takes to attempt even a moderate speed in a corner.

An Evo 883 is possibly one of my favorite bikes to ride.

[sunhuntin]

a friend of my partners has an ironhead sport. he loves it. causes no end of troubles, but he still loves. its magneto run, so if you want the bike running, you dont have lights. if you want lights, you dont have a bike. lol.
he let me attempt to kick it over once...damn thing bit back! still a kool bike though. id have one from a collector point of view, but i wouldnt ride it.

saw an aermacchi 250 in a mechanics a while back...cool that its a 250 "harley" but its butt ugly.

[Wired1]

What about this:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=91882530
It's a bit more than my budget and it's an interesting shade of fluorescent orange but the mileage is low and it's and evo isn't it?
Pity it's in Invercargil, too far to take a look.

[limbimtimwim]

Now all I have to work out is the whole Fatboy, Lowboy, Tallboy, Fatbob, Shortbob, Wetbob, Road King, Road Queen stuff.You forgot 'spongebob'.

[Edbear]

Then have I got the bike for you - 1200, twin disc front, top order, looks like new.

Oh, of course, it's an Evo.............


Actually had a think about that, SD but having the option of a brand new cruiser at the price I was offered and the better pillion seat made the difference. As I said, though, if I was a bit richer...

[crazybigal]

simple get a V rod!

[Shadows]

What about this:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=91882530
It's a bit more than my budget and it's an interesting shade of fluorescent orange but the mileage is low and it's and evo isn't it?
Pity it's in Invercargil, too far to take a look.

Evo.... but 4 speed. Hence the price. I wouldn't go there either.
I wouldn't touch one pre 1990 and for less than $9-$10 grand. You simply cannot get a half decent HD for less. Anything cheaper than that will cost you much, much more in the long run. Pay the dearer price, get a good bike that you can ride around for a couple of years, sell privately for what you paid for it, and then buy another one a couple of years newer, for the same price, straight away. Kind of like a free upgrade!

[Wired1]

Yeah I wish I could be that patient, I've always found that the best cure for temptation is to give in to it.
Anyone out there know this bike or could have a look at it for me?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...px?id=91882530
The seller is in Invercargil.

[Shadows]

Yeah I wish I could be that patient, I've always found that the best cure for temptation is to give in to it.
Anyone out there know this bike or could have a look at it for me?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...px?id=91882530
The seller is in Invercargil.

Well at least its an Evo and the seller doesn't seem to be overvaluing it.
But it is still an old 883 four speed so it'll be a very sedate ride.
It will probably cost you a fair bit of money too. You might kick yourself for not spending that extra couple of grand now and getting a five speed. A bit more now could mean a lot less in the long run.
Good luck.

[Wired1]

Thanks for the advice, at least I didn't buy the ironhead!

[peasea]

I know a few people who ride iron head Sporty's and have had a good run out of them, but admittedly they don't tour on them. They also tend to need some tinkering. On the other hand my lady has a '96 Sporty (Evo) that started life as an 883, now with a 1200 kit and it's been a fabulous bike. Nimble, peppy and utterly reliable. While the engine is still solid (as opposed to rubber) mounted she tours quite a bit with me, planted on a more comfy, well padded solo seat. Around town it gets a more attractive 'Gunfighter-style' seat. You get the 'Sporster buzz' after a couple of hours but so what? Even with a larger Custom Chrome tank she's nearly due for gas by then anyway and it's leg-stretch time.

A 1200 kit is the best thing to add to an 883 if you can find a bargain but it's probably best to hunt down a 1200 in the first place if you're not into spanner throwing.

Just for the record; about two and half years ago my lady paid 10g's for a 96 Sporty, 1200 kit, Screaming Eagle airbox, forward controls, Harris 2-into-1, sexy Custom Chrome tank with flush-mount gas filler and two seats.

[wolf.47]

Yep re the flat-head stuff - all hot-rod and motorbike types into 'old-stuff'refer to a side-valve as a 'flathead' .

An Iron-head? yep, because it's cast iron.

But the age-brackets of each? - you're on your own and need to google them, I know most but likely to get one or two a year or so out - and then hooo-boy! the KB pedants will home in for the kill!!

flat head 1929-1973
knucklehead 1936-1947
panhead 1948-1965
shovelhead 1966-1983
and then evo, twin cam and the new 96 revolution :Punk:

Just some useless info from my harley poster. :yes:

[scumdog]

flat head 1929-1973
knucklehead 1936-1947
panhead 1948-1965
shovelhead 1966-1983
and then evo, twin cam and the new 96 revolution :Punk:

Just some useless info from my harley poster. :yes:

What were the cut-off dates for the various Sporty engines??

[wolf.47]

What were the cut-off dates for the various Sporty engines??

don't know sorry, would have to google that one.
Try This
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hplist_evo_sporty_stock.htm

Just found this one
http://www.sportster.org/history/

[peasea]

So you don't like iron heads?
What about the 883 sportster. A bit smaller in cc's but these are an evo right?


883's are fine but you'll probably soon get bored. Better to find a 1200 and ease into it. For a daily rider/short trip cruiser the Evo Sporty is actually quite good value.

The people I know with Ironhead Sporty's don't need bike shops other than to buy parts. They, like me, have learned how to read, bought some workshop manuals and accumulated some tools. It depends on how keen you are to get your hands dirty and also how well you want to get to know your bike. Whatever you buy get a manual for it and at least do the basic maintenace thing yourself.

[Wired1]

Well I've bought the 883 so that settles that. I'm not shy to have a go at fixing anything and I've got me the dealer workshop manual so she's all looking good. Thanks for the help and advice and extremes of opinions!

[vifferman]

The descriptions were also based on the appearance of the motors. What the rocker covers reminded people of, eg. Panhead, knucklehead, etc.

So, on that basis, are there Harley turtleheads?
Shit-heads?
Dickheads?

[Motu]

You can call them what you like - but until they are used by everyone,they will ask you what the fuck you are talking about.

[peasea]

Well I've bought the 883 so that settles that. I'm not shy to have a go at fixing anything and I've got me the dealer workshop manual so she's all looking good. Thanks for the help and advice and extremes of opinions!


You'll get extremes here alright.

I just got a text from a mate in Wellington. He's scored an 01 Sporty 1200, forward controls, twin plug heads, 18k on the clock and's parted with just 11g's. Good deals are out there.

[Shadows]

Well I've bought the 883 so that settles that. I'm not shy to have a go at fixing anything and I've got me the dealer workshop manual so she's all looking good. Thanks for the help and advice and extremes of opinions!

That 4 speed one on tardme?

Check this out, full of useful stuff...

http://www.sportster.org/tech/

[peasea]

Dunno where he found it, he didn't say except that it was in Wellington. I doubt a 2001 would be a 4-spd.

Thanks, I've seen that website before, we were looking at breathing mod's for the girls 1200. Haven't had time to sift through everything there yet. Interesting though.

[peasea]

So, on that basis, are there Harley turtleheads?
Shit-heads?
Dickheads?

Shitheads and dickheads? You get them on any bike, unfortunately. Turtleheads fall out of the bum.

[Midnight Special]

Well I've bought the 883 so that settles that. I'm not shy to have a go at fixing anything and I've got me the dealer workshop manual so she's all looking good. Thanks for the help and advice and extremes of opinions!

And when is the pic of the 883 coming ?

[Shadows]

Dunno where he found it, he didn't say except that it was in Wellington. I doubt a 2001 would be a 4-spd.

Sorry mate, I was asking about Wired1's one.

[peasea]

Well I've bought the 883 so that settles that. I'm not shy to have a go at fixing anything and I've got me the dealer workshop manual so she's all looking good. Thanks for the help and advice and extremes of opinions!

As an aside, what's the Nelson HD riding scene doing of late? We're moving in that direction come the New Year (early, new year, maybe as early as Christmas) and have heard the 'Mot' boys are a laid back bunch. Didn't they host the Canaan Downs gigs way back in the early 80's?

[Wired1]

Here's some pics of the new bike. I like it, you never know what you are getting into when you buy off turdme but I think she's a goody. There are a few things to tidy up but it wouldn't be any fun of there weren't. Apparently there are 1200 Harleys in the top of the South Island so this place must be a bit of a magnet for them, probably the endless sunshine and long summer days! yeah right.

[Shadows]

Looks pretty tidy from the pics. Good one.

[scumdog]

Here's some pics of the new bike. I like it, you never know what you are getting into when you buy off turdme but I think she's a goody. There are a few things to tidy up but it wouldn't be any fun of there weren't. Apparently there are 1200 Harleys in the top of the South Island so this place must be a bit of a magnet for them, probably the endless sunshine and long summer days! yeah right.

So any of your mates wanting a mint-as genyouwine 1200 Sporty 'S', NZ new??

(hint-hint, give me a PM)

[peasea]

Here's some pics of the new bike. I like it, you never know what you are getting into when you buy off turdme but I think she's a goody. There are a few things to tidy up but it wouldn't be any fun of there weren't. Apparently there are 1200 Harleys in the top of the South Island so this place must be a bit of a magnet for them, probably the endless sunshine and long summer days! yeah right.

My lady has a 1200 Sporty, good bike. You'll have some fun on that, far more nimble than the big blocks and they respond to performance tweaking very well. However, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Enjoy your ride and we'll be in your area come the new year. Permanently. We're looking forward to meeting Nelson bikers.

[bernardf]

What a mine of information thanks.
So what's with the AMF era bikes? I'm looking at a '78 panhead 1000 sporty and have heard that this is not the best age Harley to buy. Any thoughts? biased opinions welcome...

Hmmm never heard of one of these ,maybe you mean a 78 1000 Ironhead Sporty some call them shovelhead sportsters as one previous post said the AMF era bikes did have problems which should have been sorted by now ,as for repairs don't darken a dealers doorstep as they won't look at it just too old but there are loads of other places you can take it to . If you are serious on a sporty the ask someone who really knows them to advise you what is the best to buy

[hogmeister]

Much as i love hogs, the older ones fall apart faster than the newer ones, so unless you wan to ride 100 kms and stop 4 times to tighten various bits up and check that all the bits are there go for an evo preferably rubber mounted. Plus invest in a lot of locktight glue, and nylon locking nuts your need up, plus the fuckers rust as you look at em, but... if you want a shit eating grin on your face every time you start one up go for a harley with loud pipes post 2001.

Ps the 2007 1600 sounds jap....:gob:

[ganit88]

So you don't like iron heads?
What about the 883 sportster. A bit smaller in cc's but these are an evo right?

Iron heads are ok you gotta remeber they aint the fastest or best engineered harley motor.they suffer from bad valves as they have no stem seals before 1985..the amf XLH 1000 was ok apart from shit carbys and ignition. easy fixed tho jus need deep pockets.
evo sportys are reliable as and strong motors apart from the ones that have been bored to 1200cc as guys were doin a few years back without replacing 3rd gear... bad news lol. like any bike thay can be built to be a reliable bike using the right parts an theyre cheep as now so its up to the individual you either like em or not......
ganit