Welding a cracked frame

[FilthyLuka]

I binned my bike, and now the weld that holds on my center stand/rear brake lever mounting is cracked. So, ima gonna strip the bike, take the frame and go get it welded. My ma (manager of a VTNZ station) pointed out that i might need a cert for any major frame welds... the weld is about 3mm thick and about 10mm long, all it holds up is my centerstand/rear brake lever.

Do i need to go and get a engineering cert? or can i get it welded properly, paint it and hope for the best?

Denis

[Ixion]

In theory you need to get it certified. But if you get it neatly welded, and paint it nicely (not obviously different to the rest), waht inspector is going to pick it up?

[degrom]

I binned my bike, and now the weld that holds on my center stand/rear brake lever mounting is cracked. So, ima gonna strip the bike, take the frame and go get it welded. My ma (manager of a VTNZ station) pointed out that i might need a cert for any major frame welds... the weld is about 3mm thick and about 10mm long, all it holds up is my centerstand/rear brake lever.

Do i need to go and get a engineering cert? or can i get it welded properly, paint it and hope for the best?

Denis

You don't need a engineering cert... Just be careful when welding because as you know heat can do wonderful things to straight metal.

Is the bike ridable as is? I have see a few GN frames on TM lately for just over $100. Tell us more... (Are you okay after the bin... :) )

[degrom]

In theory you need to get it certified. But if you get it neatly welded, and paint it nicely (not obviously different to the rest), waht inspector is going to pick it up?


You don't need a welding cert. to build your own frames,so why would you need one to repair them?

(Nothing wrong to have the cert to keep your mind at rest... :) )

[Ixion]

Not a welding cert. A LVV cert - that a LVV inspector has inspected the finished job . Same as any major crash repairs. I know it's not a major repair. But because it's the frame it gets caught up in the net.

[degrom]

Not a welding cert. A LVV cert - that a LVV inspector has inspected the finished job . Same as any major crash repairs. I know it's not a major repair. But because it's the frame it gets caught up in the net.

Very true... You can weld your own frame even if you can't weld two plates together!!!

Only problem you have is getting it past the low volume vehicle (lvv) certification or the people that check binned vehicles to see if they can go back on the road.

[Ixion]

And as the OP's bike has not been officially written off (I assume), noone but he will know it's been binned. So if he just turns up at a testing station (NOT his Mum's!) for his next WoF, noone will look twice at that weld. Or even once.

[FilthyLuka]

the bike is rideable. The weld is only cracked because of impact on the center stand... thats pretty much the purpose of that frame section, to hold the center stand. I know who's going to be welding it (not me, i cant weld to save my life) and they do this kinda thing for a living, so hopefully it will be alright. Oh, on a different note, im 15 and scrawny, can i lift out the engine by myself?

denis

[Ixion]

Yeah, a 250 single you should be able to haul in and out. Prolly weighs only 50 or 60 kg.

[degrom]

the bike is rideable. The weld is only cracked because of impact on the center stand... thats pretty much the purpose of that frame section, to hold the center stand. I know who's going to be welding it (not me, i cant weld to save my life) and they do this kinda thing for a living, so hopefully it will be alright. Oh, on a different note, im 15 and scrawny, can i lift out the engine by myself?

denis


If you have been eating three times a day... Yes.

If you have been drinking a lot of fuzzy drinks I suggest you run around the block before you lift out... You might just through it a few miles away... LOL

[FilthyLuka]

Yeah, a 250 single you should be able to haul in and out. Prolly weighs only 50 or 60 kg.

cool... hmm, i think this is an excuse for a front fork rebuild... hehe. Ill get the frame welded up, go get a WOF (expires tommorow :shutup: ) and let you guys know what happens

Thanks for the help

[FilthyLuka]

If you have been eating three times a day... Yes.

If you have been drinking a lot of fuzzy drinks I suggest you run around the block before you lift out... You might just through it a few miles away... LOL

does guiness count as fuzzy?

[degrom]

the bike is rideable. The weld is only cracked because of impact on the center stand... thats pretty much the purpose of that frame section, to hold the center stand. I know who's going to be welding it (not me, i cant weld to save my life) and they do this kinda thing for a living, so hopefully it will be alright. Oh, on a different note, im 15 and scrawny, can i lift out the engine by myself?

denis

Do you have a manual for the bike... I have seen that one can save a few hours some times if you just prepare your self(even prevent a few sour fingers if you know how to not stick them in the wrong places).

I know there is a online manual going around on this forum.

[degrom]

does guiness count as fuzzy?

Does being 15, add 3 years to your age if you drink Guiness?

[FilthyLuka]

Does being 15, add 3 years to your age if you drink Guiness?

err... about that... :Police: :doh:

Ive got a service manual (all 300 pages of the bastard) for my bike, so i think it should go well. Im only a bit concerned about the wiring loom, or rather putting it back in...

[surfer]

You could try this. If you can't lift the frame out by yourself try to slide it out onto something of a similar height. I'm not scrawny but an XS650 engine is a heavy beast, I found this the best way for me. I wedged the bike upright with wood under the franme and then slid the engine onto a few blocks of wood next to it. Then moved the frame/bike out the way. Do the reverse for putting it back in.

Not sure if your bike engine will come out either side of the frame or not. There may be a technique to getting it out so check the manual.

I seriously wouldn't want to chuck money away at LVV guys if you can get a good weld and a nice splosh of paint.

Good luck with piecing it all back together as well.

[Ixion]

A handy trick for removing heavy engines is to lay the bike on its side 9with the engine in but all mountings loosened or removed. Then move the engine clear of the mounts, easily done because you only need to slide/wiggle it , not lift it.

Now stand the bike up, leaving the engine on the floor!

This is the standard method for the Suzuki Waterbus, about the heaviest bike engine out there. Works well.

[crazybigal]

take it to a low volume certed crash repair place, get them to weld it and write you up a repair cert then your mum cant fail you at your next WOF

[The Pastor]

and make sure you splash some dirt all over the weld a week or two before you take it in, nothin more sus than a big clean spot on a frame. (works for underbody rust that you've just painted over in your car too)

[FilthyLuka]

take it to a low volume certed crash repair place, get them to weld it and write you up a repair cert then your mum cant fail you at your next WOF

it'll cost me seven million dollars wont it?

[surfer]

A handy trick for removing heavy engines is to lay the bike on its side 9with the engine in but all mountings loosened or removed. Then move the engine clear of the mounts, easily done because you only need to slide/wiggle it , not lift it.

Now stand the bike up, leaving the engine on the floor!

This is the standard method for the Suzuki Waterbus, about the heaviest bike engine out there. Works well.

Cheers, never thought of that one.

[Motu]

Don't worry - you would eventualy......

[Pixie]

Just curious- how do the LVV nobs tell if a weld is a quality one?
X-ray it? or just look to see if it is neat,which is pretty meaningless with regards to weld strength

[crazybigal]

best to get the nobs to do it themselves! then they cant argue about it!


Just curious- how do the LVV nobs tell if a weld is a quality one?
X-ray it? or just look to see if it is neat,which is pretty meaningless with regards to weld strength

[XP@]

Just curious- how do the LVV nobs tell if a weld is a quality one?
X-ray it? or just look to see if it is neat,which is pretty meaningless with regards to weld strength

They should use ultra sound on it.

The frame on my F650 cracked in a similar place. The side stand was exceptionally wobbly but the structure was still there (just)
Took it to the bike shop, they just disconnected the battery, welded it, painted it and the job was a goodun.

Unless you really need to don't remove the engine. If the engine is still in place then the frame will not bend that much. If you remove the engine and the head bends the frame you are going to have one hell of a job getting it back in! Also remembering your frame may well be slightly stressed from the drop so could move when you take out the engine. and even a few mm out can make replacing an engine a total and utter pig :(

If you need to get at under the bike it may be easiest to remove the tank (fire hazzard) and lay it on its side, 3 mins work as opposed to ?? hours to remove the engine.

[imdying]

They'll only check it if they know about it, or can see it has been done. Just do it tidy and forget about it.

[vagrant]

Just curious- how do the LVV nobs tell if a weld is a quality one?
X-ray it? or just look to see if it is neat,which is pretty meaningless with regards to weld strength

If your take it to them to get welding inspected, they expect to see a certificate provded by the certified welder who did the job.
No certificate = no pass. Even if the weld looks like a goodun.

To become a certified welder you must have a certain level of experience, and then carry out a series of welds of different types. These get inspected both visually and with NDT (xray/eddy current test) to check for correct penetration of the weld.
Unitec run certified welder courses.

[FilthyLuka]

Also remembering your frame may well be slightly stressed from the drop so could move when you take out the engine. and even a few mm out can make replacing an engine a total and utter pig

hmm, i think the easiest way is just to show you where the crack is... its about 10mm long, 2mm wide and doesnt get any bigger/smaller when weight is added to different parts of the bike

(not dail up friendly, large picture)

[Ixion]

However, as noted somewhere above, motorcycle frame welds do not have to be done by a certified welder. I don't actually think there is even any particular certification for it.

The legislation is , at best , vague.

Here is the relevant section of the Vehicle Inspection Requirements Manual (VIRM): Light Vehicle Repair Certification (Repair VIRM).



Reasons for rejection
1. The manufacturer’s welding procedures have not
been followed.
2. A recognised repair research organisation’s
procedures have not been followed when the
manufacturer provides no information.
3. A weld has been completed using the incorrect:
a) shielding gas, or
b) electrode wire.
4. There has been too much heat build-up during the
welding so that the parent material is weakened.
5. The weld:
a) has porosity present, or
b) has cracks present, or
c) has undercut or cold lap, or
d) has poor penetration.
6. Unless the vehicle manufacturer states otherwise
replacement spot welds:
a) are located on top of the OE weld locations, or
b) are spaced so as to create a continuous heat
affected zone.
7. Brazing has been used in a repair where it is not
specifically permitted by the manufacturer’s
instructions.

Summary of legislation
Applicable legislation
• Land Transport Rule: Vehicle Repair 1998.
Repair requirements
1. The repair method used to comply a
vehicle must take into account:
a) the date of manufacture of the
vehicle; and
b) the class, make and other relevant
characteristics of the vehicle; and
c) the approved vehicle standards
with which the vehicle is required to
comply; and
d) any relevant manufacturer’s
recommendations and alternative
methods
e) the material specifications used for
the construction of the vehicles, its
structure, systems, components or
equipment; and
f ) the compatibility of the intended
repair process with material
specifications.
Note 1 When welding is done, the manufacturer’s specifications
must be taken into account.


What a "recognised repair research organisation" for motorcycle frames would be is any mans guess.

Being able to show that any welding was done by a certified welder would no doubt give the certifier assurance that it was done properly. But it doesn't *have* to be done by a certified welder. Just if you do it yourself you may have more trouble convincing the certifier to sign it off.

[degrom]

If your take it to them to get welding inspected, they expect to see a certificate provded by the certified welder who did the job.
No certificate = no pass. Even if the weld looks like a goodun.

To become a certified welder you must have a certain level of experience, and then carry out a series of welds of different types. These get inspected both visually and with NDT (xray/eddy current test) to check for correct penetration of the weld.
Unitec run certified welder courses.

Mate,I have asked the question many times and there is not certificate for this kind of work.

From what I know there are two main welding certificates. One is where you learn to weld different welding process's and how to do them in strange positions. (Like above your head. Hopefully you don't learn the hard way like when the melted steel makes a tear drop and roles down your overall!!!)

The second one is more for welding tubes that will be under pressure for places like Fontera.

My question to you now is, Where the F@#$K does welding frames go!?!

[degrom]

hmm, i think the easiest way is just to show you where the crack is... its about 10mm long, 2mm wide and doesnt get any bigger/smaller when weight is added to different parts of the bike

(not dail up friendly, large picture)

I say,get it welded.. Clean it up and get your WOF.

[The Pastor]

Or stick a band aid over it.


If nothing is going to fall off with out it welded have a go at just putting some engine greasey filth over the top so you cant see it.