Mechanical/restoration supervision sought [Archive]

psyguy

20th March 2007, 08:14

gs850 engine strip-rebuild-restoration
hi guys

my bike's been living for a while with a hope of being restored one day and i decided well why not me, so i have just started the project with the engine overhaul :yes:
now, the thing is that this is my first :Punk:
so, i'm thinking i'm gonna need some help from people who have been there before, especially when it comes to the inspection/measurement of all the internal components and just general advice on how to go about restoring parts

as i'm new to auckland biking scene i'd like to meet other bikers
i myself like cruiser/touring bikes, especially older bikes ('70s & '80s)

so, i'd like to invite people to come over for a friendly biker chat and of course a bottle of courtesy beer or if you're out of here just comment on this thread as you please

PM me for details if you're keen, weekday or weekend, i'm in avondale, west auckland
:rockon:

i'll keep you posted on the progress

Macktheknife

20th March 2007, 11:36

so, i'd like to invite people to come over for a friendly biker chat and of course a bottle of courtesy beer

PM me for details if you're keen, weekday or weekend, i'm in avondale, west auckland
:rockon:

BEER!!!!
Well in that case it would be rude not to! :sunny:
Happy to help in any way I can mate, just let me know.

crashe

20th March 2007, 11:43

BEER!!!!
Well in that case it would be rude not to! :sunny:
Happy to help in any way I can mate, just let me know.

Cor blimey Mack...... you were quick off the mark..... :whistle:

as i'm new to auckland biking scene i'd like to meet people who ride cruiser/touring bikes, especially older bikes ('70s & '80s)

There are a few cruiser riders out west...... me being one of them.
My bike isnt of the vintage you speak of thou.

psyguy

20th March 2007, 18:57

just to make it clear people... anyone is welcome regardless of what you ride :yes: , it's just my own preference - the older bikes i mean

psyguy

20th March 2007, 19:26

here's few pics of today's work - just to show i'm serious... :yes:

Max Preload

20th March 2007, 20:20

Is that a nut fucker I spy in photo #2? :shit:

psyguy

20th March 2007, 20:23

sorry, what's a "nut fucker"?

Ixion

20th March 2007, 21:01

There are those who deprecate the use of the adjustable or "Crescent" spanner. I find them useful m'self.

I am more into the two strokes of the era, but I might drop you a line sometime and peer into the innards of Petal's four stroke cousin. Though why you need all those cams and chains and valves and things going round n round n round n up n down n up n down n round n..

psyguy

20th March 2007, 21:25

There are those who deprecate the use of the adjustable or "Crescent" spanner.

it's a funny story. i bought a 32 pce spanner set and got two spanners size 15 but no size 14! :angry: ... so when it came to a situation with a nut and a bolt size 14 i had to got for the adjustable spanner, so yeah they can be useful

Ixion

20th March 2007, 21:36

Unfortunate, since 14mm is a common size. Keep an eye on your local Repco and Supercheap. Both of them from time to time have spanners cheap. Usually because some tealeaf has swiped a couple out of one of the sets, so, unable to sell the incomplete set, they sell the rest singly. Usually $1.50 or $2 each. Good value, and it is handy to have a few extra of common sizes.

A good socket set , though expensive , is a worthwhile investment.

FROSTY

20th March 2007, 21:57

a fellow westie --and he likes old shaft drive bikes. HMMM

psyguy

21st March 2007, 20:27

another busy day at the office and the engine's all stripped and given a preliminary clean
i learnt a thing or two today, for example - when working on your bike DO NOT listen to your car stereo all day - it will bust your battery :angry:

SPECIAL THANKS to MackTheKnife for coming over and sharing experience and even giving me a hand!
mate, i hope the beer was to your taste!
cheers :Punk:

a fellow westie --and he likes old shaft drive bikes. HMMM

frosty, come over for a beer some time

psyguy

23rd March 2007, 22:18

to keep you updated...

engine completely stripped
casings ready for vapour blasting and polishing
gaskets, oil seals, pistons and rings on order from the usa
:done:

with time passing things slowly slipping from memory and i find myself looking at certain parts and wondering what they might be and where they might fit :shit:

i'll need some luck putting everything back together, i think :innocent:

Ixion

23rd March 2007, 22:30

Parts fiche is the secret. Better for that purpose than a workshop manual.

If you don't have one try here (http://www.alpha-sports.com/suzuki_parts.htm)

Motu

23rd March 2007, 23:17

it's a funny story. i bought a 32 pce spanner set and got two spanners size 15 but no size 14! :angry: ... so when it came to a situation with a nut and a bolt size 14 i had to got for the adjustable spanner, so yeah they can be useful

Most likely an ISO or European set....14mm is not a common size.When anyone who works exclusively on Japanese bikes or cars works on anything non Japanese they cry foul with the oddball 11mm,13mm,15mm,18mm sizes.The ISO head sizes equate to the Imperial head sizes - 7/16 became 11mm,1/2 became 13mm....in the 3/8 bolt sizes which had 9/16 heads,ISO seems to prefer 15mm or 17mm.The Japanese don't do ISO....they have their own Imperialism.Work on Euro stuff long enough and you curse the bloody Japs instead.

Man,you are really moving along there,that's about 3 years progress for me!

Ixion

24th March 2007, 00:18

Yeah. Even or odd. But the Japs will often put a one size smaller head on a bolt, especially on frame trim stuff. Aesthics. Then you need the uneven sizes.

psyguy

24th March 2007, 07:21

terbang

24th March 2007, 08:24

Ahh a fellow GS nut. I've owned a whole bunch of them, mainly 1100's. Have rebuilt various GS (X) engines and gearboxes over the years and there are no real traps. Yours is the 8 valve version with the shaft drive. I see you are going to refurbish the casings that were origionally painted by Suzuki. You can't get the paint anymore as you would expect and a lot of people use the VHT or similar in a can product that you can get from repco. What I have done with the casings, cylinder block and head is just sand blast them (I have a small home jobby), get a product from Croda Lusteroid (Christchurch) called Caprithane 'Metallic fine' which is the base metallic paint before any colour. They paint aircraft cowlings with it. Its a 2 pack epoxy type paint that will poison you if yer not careful and you will need to apply an etch primer. It leaves a finish that looks like aluminium a bit glossed up. I have a bike that has done 80,000 kays on that paint and it has few chips, no stains and cleans up real nice.
When you assemble the engine replace the camchain, camchain tensioner blocks and Intake boots that are still available. Have a close look at 5th gear as they are often worn at a lower mileage than you would expect and the clutch baskets are a bit of an achilles heel on GSes as well. The crank is a roller assembly (I think on that model). They are like rocking horse shit and real expensive to rebuild so make sure it is well inhibited when apart. A simple runout check is all you can do there. I have used Wiseco pistons in the past and they have been good though choose your machiist well as they won't take kindly to a slightly offset bore (no engine does really). They are a great project engine and you will also have heaps of fun riding it when it's done. I'm working on converting an 82 1100 to fuel injection at the moment probably will adapt an R1 body with US scourced electronics.
Have Fun and If you need any help give us a yell.

Here is a picky of the finish

terbang

24th March 2007, 08:34

Most likely an ISO or European set....14mm is not a common size.When anyone who works exclusively on Japanese bikes or cars works on anything non Japanese they cry foul with the oddball 11mm,13mm,15mm,18mm sizes.The ISO head sizes equate to the Imperial head sizes - 7/16 became 11mm,1/2 became 13mm....in the 3/8 bolt sizes which had 9/16 heads,ISO seems to prefer 15mm or 17mm.The Japanese don't do ISO....they have their own Imperialism.Work on Euro stuff long enough and you curse the bloody Japs instead.

Man,you are really moving along there,that's about 3 years progress for me!

7/16 is not exactly 11mm and 1/2 is slightly smaller than 13mm (though 1/4 whitworth is 13mm), 9/16 is a tight 14mm and 11/16 is close to 17mm (but not the same) and 7/8 is 22 mm. Just buy a good set of metric spanners and sockets. The most commonly used ones on the GS series is 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 19mm, 22mm and 24mm. The bolts on the starter cover are an odd size (7mm I think) that I usually have to use my metric adjustable on.

Motu

24th March 2007, 10:08

I never said they were the same size,it's just that a 1/4in bolt with a 7/16 head is very close to a 6mm bolt with an 11mm head.To me it's a visual thing - you work on nuts and bolts all day,and you just look at it and say I need a 17mm or 19mm for that.A 1/2in,13mm and 1/4 Whitworth are very close in size,but I never mistake what spanner will fit.Like the change from Whitworth to SAE,the change to ISO was to keep things ''sorta'' the same.

Laava

24th March 2007, 10:17

That's a mighty fine pile o' bits there pal! Good luck with that! I assume you were going to do the vapour blast and leave it at that, I did that on an old Laverda and it looked good and was easy to clean as the surface was quite smooth. The paint system that Terbang is on about sounds good too. I assume you'll be doing everything on the bike? You might need to move it into the lounge!:) Is all the wiring OK? That for me was the worst bit. Don't rush it and don't add up how much it costs or you'll never finish it. Cheers

psyguy

24th March 2007, 21:08

Ahh a fellow GS nut...

cheers terbang! :sunny:
a really useful reading and yes i might need to give you a yell further down the track as, as i said, this is my first ever project
nice finish on that bike :love:

psyguy

24th March 2007, 21:15

That's a mighty fine pile o' bits there pal!...

yup, i've heard that vapour blasting gives a real fine long lasting finish (and i dont mind a bit of oxidation as long as the surfaces wash ok)
i started the project with the engine as it needed attention anyway, but yes i'll most probably continue the restoration, finances permitting
i don't know that much about electrics, so all i can say for now is that everything works fine. or does it?!
cheers

psyguy

26th March 2007, 19:44

Ixion

26th March 2007, 20:58

Well, valve springs are cheap(ish) and weak ones can lead to Mr Valve thumping Mr Piston, which is rather nasty. So if there is any doubt...

I assume by exhaust valve stems you mean stem to guide clearance. Not such an issue IMHO, if they are in spec worst likely is a bit of oil burning and a very slight power loss.

Crankshaft diameter. Hm. That's a tricky one. Worn crank = low oil pressure = big bang at high revs. And a worn crank will wear faster than a good one. IS it scored at all? A regrind and new shells is not a VERY dear matter. If you can get oversize shells (I'm assuming it's a shell big end - if its rollers thats another matter)

Camshaft lobe heights? Personally I wouldn't worry if they are still in spec , even if only just. So long as they are not scored. They may reduce peak power very slightly, but won't wear any faster (until they wear right through the hardening). And won't (usually) cause any damage. And it is a relatively easy job to replace them in years to come if needed, you don't have to strip the whole motor. And new camshafts won't be cheap.

Very much a personal opinion thing of course, others may differ. And it depends what you want and what you intend to do with the bike. If you want it brought back to new condition, then clearly anything out of spec or just in should be replaced. And if you were goign to race it, that would be another matter again.

jonbuoy

26th March 2007, 21:12

well, i've been polishing bolts. lotsa bolts... check out the before/after picky

anyhow, more importantly, i've checked internal componets for wear/damage and measured what i could
:done:
the good news is that they are all within factory margins and some are in remarkably good condition (e.g. the crankshaft and the gearbox parts, the camchain, etc)
however, some are at the botom end of those margins :angry:
this goes for:

camshaft lobe heights,
shaft diameter,
exhaust valves stems (a bit of play in fully open position)
valve springs

now, could someone possibly give me an educated guess on how much more service i can expect from these components before they start showing more obvious signs of wear?

cheers

My advice FWIT (not much!) lobe heights wouldn't be much of an issue for me as long as long as its even wear and not badley pitted - I guess it means the valves wouldn't be opening quite as much so slightly de-tuned engine? Valve stems would mean a bit more oil burning, and valve springs I guess would mean you might want to lower your redline. I guess it depends on if you want to ride it like its new or ride it like a 20Y/O machine. Good luck with the build. Some of the real mechanics might be able to tell more from pictures of the wear on these bits.

Cheers.

psyguy

26th March 2007, 21:31

thanks guys
i wasn't too clear i guess, the shaft diameters in question are on the camshafts (at the place where they're bolted down)
the crankshaft is quite fine

if i'm reading this correctly, i should be fine for a while as i intend to ride the bike in a moderate fashion, like a cruiser. well, mainly...
and i can attend to valves, springs and possibly camshafts later on

Ixion

26th March 2007, 21:36

Oh, camshaft journals. No I definately wouldn't worry about them. I would suggest considering replacing those springs though. They're not usually that dear, and even if you don't intend to ride it hard, one can never discount the possibility of high revs on a four cylinder. A missed gear change if nothing else.And they'll get worse the worse they get - ie the weaker they are the quicker they get weaker still, so the wear accelerates.

peasea

28th March 2007, 21:00

You're not wrong about missed shifts. With race engines I have built, with valve springs right on the limit, one missed gear or the vehicle getting airborne at full throttle usually nails the whole set. Do them now while you're in there.

Just be methodical, keep things clean and don't force anything. Projects are good fun, better than any TV show.

I also use nut fuckers but usually only on domestic plumbing; I don't think they have any place on an engine, the nick-name came about for a reason.

psyguy

28th March 2007, 21:12

no more nut fuckers, i promise :innocent:
thanks for the comments peasea

terbang

28th March 2007, 22:16

There is not a lot you can do to the cam shaft diameter apart from replace the cam though they don't wear a lot so should be right. I've got cams here that have done over 100000 K's and they are still within tolerance. Valve springs are worth replacing though and it might be worth you pricing up a set of valve guides as well. I would change the Cam chain and its assorted blocks while its apart as it really is a bitch of a job to do in the case of later rattles and bangs in that area as you have to pull the whole engine apart again. I always fit a new set of intake boots on these old girls as they are generally perished and leaky, though it is hard to spot. Take a close look at top gear pinions as they are the ones that wear the most especially if some slacker has been tardy with his oil level or changes in the past. If you have cam wear so be suspicious of other areas.! The crank is a roller assembly, mains and big ends and they cost a fortune to rebuild so look after that bit. There is a simple runout test you can do and visual inspection on the races there. Don't get too excited about honing the cylinders, just do it very lightly if you need to at all. They keep their oil fairly well except for the cylinder base gasket and the stator cover, that need close attention to cleanliness during assembly. Use the Suzuki gasket on the Stator cover as they have a rubbery compound on certain portions that aftermarket (like Vesrah) don't seem to have. I use that three-bond stuff on the main casings and I've not had any leaks there with clean surfaces. Have a close look at all your threads, remember they are getting up to 1/4 century old now, and helicoil any dodgey looking ones. Most are M6x1.0mm. Nothing worse than assembling a casing to find a damaged thread and have to start again.
And have fun..

peasea

28th March 2007, 23:10

Good call on the valve guides; any wear, chuck em. This will require refacing of the valve seats but you might want to look into that anyway. Also the valve faces. Gary at the Cylinder Head Shop in Glenfield could sort that for you, heads are his game and he's good at it. (Of course you could get it ported while you're there, he's got a flow bench........)

If you do need to reface the seats, get a three-angle valve job.

psyguy

31st March 2007, 20:08

first thing's first...
many thanks to SURFER for coming over and lending me a hand and some tools, and a few words of advice too
:rockon:

now, i got the engine casings back from vapour blasting
very happy with the result :love: and decided to just leave them as they are (no painting)

started puting things back together - the crankshaft and the gear shafts so far

had a big scare with a misplaced part :shit: (one of those bearing locating half-rings went hiding on me). i think my heart stopped for a moment...

still waiting for the new parts from the states. aparently suzuki warehouse didn't have the pistons in stock...:angry:

have a bit of a problem taking out the gear shifter oil seal (at least without doing any damage)... i'll post a photo later

cheers everyone :Punk:

Storm

31st March 2007, 21:45

no more nut fuckers, i promise :innocent:
thanks for the comments peasea

Damn straight, be a man and use a mans tool- the almighty VICE GRIPS!!!!
Guarranteed to fuck ANYTHING- not just nuts.:gob:
Really, a set of those and a hammer is all you need for any job:done:

Seriously, great work so far mate and keep the updates coming- might even inspire a few more projects out there in KB land:first:

Eurodave

31st March 2007, 22:13

now, i got the engine casings back from vapour blasting
very happy with the result :love: and decided to just leave them as they are (no painting)

Sorry to rain on your parade but sadly if you dont put either a clearcoat or paint on jap alloy it WILL gradually oxidize turning white & furry in a short time. To help forstall this, seeing that youve already started reassembly ,liberal & frequent applications of WD40 or CRC 556 may help in the short term......I speak from bitter experience!! BTW I also own a '77 GS750 with exactly that problem :(

Ixion

31st March 2007, 22:29

Meh. Stillson, that always does the trick

psyguy

31st March 2007, 22:49

Sorry to rain on your parade but sadly if you dont put either a clearcoat or paint on jap alloy it WILL gradually oxidize turning white & furry in a short time. To help forstall this, seeing that youve already started reassembly ,liberal & frequent applications of WD40 or CRC 556 may help in the short term......I speak from bitter experience!! BTW I also own a '77 GS750 with exactly that problem :(

could you possibly post a photo of what it turns into and after how long?
cos i was told by someone they have left it bare with no problems even after few years ?!

terbang

31st March 2007, 22:56

Believe me if you don't put something on it it will dull off and start fizzing. I've got one here that someone had stripped and left, looked great but not for long. . Needs redoing. That is why Suzuki painted them on the first place. Make sure you use a product that can withstand fuel and oil. Thats why I use a 2 pack. The yanks often powdercoat them with good results as well. Pure Aluminium won't corrode but its not that strong either and these jap parts are alloyed for strength which is why they will fizz. Head over to here (http://www.thegsresources.com/) for some good guff on GSes.

The Pastor

31st March 2007, 23:03

what is vapour blasting?

psyguy

1st April 2007, 00:16

what is vapour blasting?
A liquid blasting process in which the fine abrasive particles are suspended in water and propelled toward a surface at high speed by air or steam.

The Pastor

1st April 2007, 14:02

A liquid blasting process in which the fine abrasive particles are suspended in water and propelled toward a surface at high speed by air or steam.

is it expensive?

psyguy

1st April 2007, 18:49

is it expensive?
all the parts you see in the photo above (basically, a complete engine minus the side covers)- $350
the parts were rather dirty (even after a thorough srub with an engine degreaser and a brush) - there's a photo somewhere at the begining of this thread

Duc

2nd April 2007, 08:21

So who does Vapour Blasting (Auckland area) ?

Does the engine have to be dissassembled to the block and casings only?

psyguy

2nd April 2007, 21:40

so...
i've done a lot of research on vapour blasting, including corespondence with some motorcycle restoration specialists overseas :whocares:
the shortest story is that the quality and the appropriatness of vapor blasting for motorcycle engines depends on a couple of factors
1. correct manipulation of the blasting process
2. the engine alloy used

1 - blasting process can be fine-tuned using aggregate/beads of various hardness and size, the water pressure can be adjusted too, and also air can be added to the process. sometimes an after process is used to get an extra smooth surface
2 - different alloys (while all aluminium in essence) respond differently to blasting

these are possibly the reasons for such of a variety of experiences people have with this process. so, some just leave the finish as such, some clear coat it and some paint it - with a variety of paint finishes and/or clear coats. add to this the importance of the appropriate surface preparation and the products used and you get the following: with any of these methods some people report a long lasting finish while others get disapointing long-term results...:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

So who does Vapour Blasting (Auckland area) ??

Does the engine have to be dissassembled to the block and casings only?

try ph 09 238 3832 (a place in pukekohe i went to) or one other place ph 09 292 2902

the engine has to be completely disassembled as the process uses water and tiny beads that have to be thoroughly washed out afterwards

you can see a finished product at my place if you like

psyguy

3rd April 2007, 16:15

picky tells you where i'm at in reassembly

after much deliberation and some agony over not being able to forsee what finish should provide a long lasting satisfying result i opted to clear coat the crankcases with a two pot clear that's supposed to be ultra-tough yet flexible, and should also stay brilliant clear (?)
so, the future will tell... (yes, i know, it might yellow, crack, peel off, ...)

all the sidecovers taken for a professional polish
resprayed the exhaust
still waiting for the spare parts from the states

psyguy

3rd April 2007, 16:31

... If you need any help give us a yell.

still unsure how to go about that gear-shift-lever-rod oil seal :crybaby:
(centre-right on the photo)
there's also like a steel ring loose behind the seal. carefull lifting with a blunt srewdriver doesn't do it
does the seal sit on any lip? pressed? glued? what's that bloody ring (that's not on microfishe)?

anyone been there before?

any help appreciated!

before i resort to brute force :angry2:

jonbuoy

5th April 2007, 15:29

Have you got a new one to stuff in there afterwards? If you have you might end up having to spear the old one with a screwdriver and lever it off? Or a hairdryer might soften her up a bit -maybe.

psyguy

5th April 2007, 23:12

Have you got a new one to stuff in there afterwards? If you have you might end up having to spear the old one with a screwdriver and lever it off? Or a hairdryer might soften her up a bit -maybe.

yup, ordered one, but reluctant to butcher this one before i see the new one in my hands
on the other hand, impatient to keep waiting for it to arrive as it stalls progress and i may not even need it in the end... :angry:

classic zed

6th April 2007, 10:32

I have a special tool for pulling seals, give me a ring on 021 756063 if you get stuck.

The engine is looking great but it will need some sort of protective coating to make sure it doesnt corrode.

Let me know when your ready for the plug thread repair I will nip round, it takes about 5 minutes to put in a time sert.

psyguy

6th April 2007, 21:05

psyguy

8th April 2007, 20:19

... Have a close look at all your threads, remember they are getting up to 1/4 century old now, and helicoil any dodgey looking ones. Nothing worse than assembling a casing to find a damaged thread and have to start again.

yep, i listened and visually inspected all threads. they looked fine. i also assembled the crankcases with no gasket silicone and fitted and spanner tightened all the bolts. all was fine.
i took the crankcases appart, applied the gasket compound and refitted all the bolts. spanner tightened them. was very happy.
took the torque wrench out.
went to torque a bolt - the bolt rotates with no increase in resistance on the wrench...
tried the second bolt... same story
third...

managed to do some 8mm bolts but gave up on 6mm altogether after a few attempts

so, in no time i went from this :love: to this :confused: to this :crybaby: to this :argh: to this :angry: to this :mad: to this :angry2: to this :brick:

eventually, in the true spirit of easter i humbly retired to my garage and separated the crankcases once more...

i wasn't going to have this happen again so i sourced out some helicoils of a suitable lenght for aluminium (these weren't so easy to find) and recoiled ALL threads. yup, all of them :gob:
50 threads in total...

now i considered myself experienced with rethreading (and also experienced with a vacuum cleaner - getting all the shavings out)

but now i'm in :love: again

psyguy

8th April 2007, 20:27

Dodgyiti

8th April 2007, 21:00

jonbuoy

8th April 2007, 21:10

i was happy to hear from alpha sports (usa) that my order of spare parts is finally on the way
so, stay tuned :yes:

in the meantime here's a couple of pickys of what you don't want your pistons to look like
the discolouration and the vertical lines at the bottom of the piston - very bad for your health, i've been told (caused by the infamous "piston slap")

That wear doesn't look too bad to me from the photos - were the thrust faces way out on tolerance? On zoom I can see some heavier wear on two but hard to tell - the other two look pretty mint. Again my 2c.

jonbuoy

8th April 2007, 21:13

terbang

8th April 2007, 21:13

yep, i listened and visually inspected all threads. they looked fine. i also assembled the crankcases with no gasket silicone and fitted and spanner tightened all the bolts. all was fine.
i took the crankcases appart, applied the gasket compound and refitted all the bolts. spanner tightened them. was very happy.
took the torque wrench out.
went to torque a bolt - the bolt rotates with no increase in resistance on the wrench...
tried the second bolt... same story
third...

managed to do some 8mm bolts but gave up on 6mm altogether after a few attempts

so, in no time i went from this :love: to this :confused: to this :crybaby: to this :argh: to this :angry: to this :mad: to this :angry2: to this :brick:

eventually, in the true spirit of easter i humbly retired to my garage and separated the crankcases once more...

i wasn't going to have this happen again so i sourced out some helicoils of a suitable lenght for aluminium (these weren't so easy to find) and recoiled ALL threads. yup, all of them :gob:
50 threads in total...

now i considered myself experienced with rethreading (and also experienced with a vacuum cleaner - getting all the shavings out)

but now i'm in :love: again
Welcome to the GSes. Character building stuff eh. Though it looks like you are having lots of fun. I use the Recoil kits.
Enjoy B

terbang

8th April 2007, 21:21

i was happy to hear from alpha sports (usa) that my order of spare parts is finally on the way
so, stay tuned :yes:

in the meantime here's a couple of pickys of what you don't want your pistons to look like
the discolouration and the vertical lines at the bottom of the piston - very bad for your health, i've been told (caused by the infamous "piston slap")

Those old aircooled engines are a fairly loose fit and the pistons do get a bit beat up as they rattle their way up and down the bore. As long as the pistons and bores measure up (Mic them up) within tolerance then chuck a set of rings in and she'll be jake for another 80000 kays. That enlarged picky of the piston looks like its been gripped in a vice at some time in it's life..?

Ixion

8th April 2007, 21:26

psyguy

8th April 2007, 21:50

psyguy

8th April 2007, 21:53

That wear doesn't look too bad to me from the photos - were the thrust faces way out on tolerance? On zoom I can see some heavier wear on two but hard to tell - the other two look pretty mint. Again my 2c.
yup, the cylinder bores were worn out of tolerance, past the just honing stage (4 thou out of new)
so, i'm going for oversizing
ps. it's also true i'm known for spending money on new parts even when that's not absolutely necessary :innocent:

terbang

8th April 2007, 22:02

yup, the cylinders were worn out of tolerance, past the just honig stage (4thou out of new)

With the pistons it's usually the ring groves that wear out and the bore that wears. The body of the piston will outlast the rest. If yer bore is out of tolerance than bore it oversize which will fix any piston doubts you may have as well.

psyguy

8th April 2007, 22:07

With the pistons it's usually the ring groves that wear out and the bore that wears. The body of the piston will outlast the rest. If yer bore is out of tolerance than bore it oversize which will fix any piston doubts you may have as well.
yup, the cylinder bores were worn out of tolerance, past the just honing stage (4 thou out of new)
so, i'm going for oversizing
ps. it's also true i'm known for spending money on new parts even when that's not absolutely necessary :innocent:

peasea

9th April 2007, 23:47

I didn't think they looked too bad. The discolouration is blowby, a certain amoiunt is inevitable after a high mileage. The scoring looks like oil changes were not too regular in the past. As Mr Terbang says, an aircooled motor has to have fairly large clearances, and stuff will rattle and tattle.

Scoring can also be caused by ingestion of particles through ill-fitting (or absent) air filters. Always run an air filter and make sure it fits snugly on both sides of the airbox. Something many people overlook is ring gap. If the ring grooves are worn and you get 'ring flutter' you lose performance, use oil and generally flog a dead horse.

psyguy

10th April 2007, 09:04

Scoring can also be caused by ingestion of particles through ill-fitting (or absent) air filters. Always run an air filter and make sure it fits snugly on both sides of the airbox. Something many people overlook is ring gap. If the ring grooves are worn and you get 'ring flutter' you lose performance, use oil and generally flog a dead horse.

guys thanks for your enthusiasm and all the replies, i'm learning so much! :rockon:

terbang

10th April 2007, 09:23

it's also true i'm known for spending money on new parts even when that's not absolutely necessary :innocent:

Dunno what there is available for an 850 but last time I did a bore on an 1100 I went the wiseco 1150 kit. Worked out fine too at a reasonable price. These guys here at http://www.gszone.biz/ have a lot of stuff for GSes as well.:innocent:

psyguy

10th April 2007, 17:28

Dunno what there is available for an 850 but last time I did a bore on an 1100 I went the wiseco 1150 kit. Worked out fine too at a reasonable price. These guys here at http://www.gszone.biz/ have a lot of stuff for GSes as well.:innocent:

hey, thanks for the link. i surfed the net a lot but missed this site?!
i've ordered 1.0 oversize pistons/rings from suzuki (through "alpha sports")
cheers

psyguy

13th April 2007, 13:51

Wade Automotive Reconditioners also have vapor blasting facilities.
It was $100 to do a big block Guzzi motor, sump and timing cover. 30 years old and it looks brand new- inside and out.
Jap alloy must be different because I leave the Guzzi motors and 'boxs bare no problems.
i went to wade automotive, penrose to have them vapour blast - refinish - one part that still had some dirt in between the fins

their finish is nowhere near that of performance transmissions, pukekohe (where i had the whole engine done)

the part is definitely clean but with no shine. the machine at pukekohe leaves an atractive silky smooth shiny finish (as per the pickies i posted)

so, if anyone's thinking of this process, i definitely recommend go to pukekohe (well, at least for suzuki alloy from the eighties...)

Alive

15th April 2007, 12:19

psyguy

15th April 2007, 14:08

I am definately going to have to bring the xj900 around to see you...

I'm very interested in the work you are doing as I have some XJ650 motors to rebuild and I'm liking the look of what you've done...

Good job

yeah, very keen to see your bike and meet you, and we can celebrate over a beer or two :yes:

psyguy

17th April 2007, 14:48

got the long expected parcel yesterday, wanted to hug and kiss the postman...

opened the package
inside, among the smaller pieces, TWO larger boxes
suspicious...
if those TWO boxes aren't the pistons, then where are they?! :shit:
if those TWO boxes ARE the pistons, where the hell are the other TWO?! i ordered FOUR! :shit:

sent a query to the company i got the parts from
they say i was sent only TWO pistons and not four as those were the last two pistons they had and have no more...
also say that they informed me about that prior to sending, which they hadn't (and i have all our correspondence saved)...

how do i feel?

on a positive note though, check out those peanut m&m's they sent me...

jonbuoy

17th April 2007, 15:28

Like being kid again at christmas eh?

psyguy

17th April 2007, 15:42

Like being kid again at christmas eh?

yeah, maybe like a kid that got HALF his present! :angry:

jonbuoy

17th April 2007, 15:49

That is annoying - It took me a while to find someone that could supply everything in one hit without paying for extra freight. You find a source for those last two pistons?

psyguy

17th April 2007, 18:15

hey people!

any ideas on where to buy a couple of oversized pistons 1.0 (1980 suzuki gs850)?

i've emailed a few places and checked a few websites already

so far, with negative results:

alpha-sports
bike bandit
old bike barn
suziparts au
parts n more
z1 enterprises
gs zone

pending:

anderson vintage parts
crooks suzuki
flat-out motorcycles
vintage suzuki
e-bay
tiaro wreckers
buckets n bits

any suggestions highly appreciated :yes:

Ixion

18th April 2007, 00:41

psyguy

18th April 2007, 18:17

Try Robinson's Foundry (odd name, but it's a bike site) in the UK. They have a lot of early 4cylinder Suzuki stuff. I'd have said that if Suziparts don't have it's looking grim, though maybe your bike is a bit young for them.

EDIT. Just checked Robinsons, for part no 12111-45110-100 (S/B 1.0 OS Piston for 1980 GS850G , still listed by Suzuki, BTW) , they reckon they have them in stock . Bloody dear though, 38 quid each.

Their website is shit BTW, until you know the trick you can never get anything to come up when you search.

thanks for this ixion

yeah, that site is really dodgy. your knowledge really helped as i could find the part only by the part number but not by model or description... :mellow:

sent em an email first. i'm a bit more cautious now. the fact that the website tells you they have something in stock proved irrelevant with a few suppliers who all got back to me saying they have them no more. by the way, it seems it is a discontinued item.

anyhow, fingers crossed

psyguy

18th April 2007, 18:26

I am definately going to have to bring the xj900 around to see you...

thanks for coming over alive, showing your bike and sharing experience

when you undertake fixing those xj650's i'd be very keen to know how you go, maybe you could keep us posted

cheers

Alive

18th April 2007, 18:26

That's some seriously good work you're doing Psy... Very impressive.

Great to meet you, definately have to go riding when you get her finished ;)

psyguy

19th April 2007, 20:24

very frustrating
emailed two dozen places
noone has any oversized pistons

have i maybe got the two last pistons in the world?!

psyguy

19th April 2007, 20:56

mechanical help needed please :mellow:

haynes manual suggests to:
"ensure that all the valve springs are fitted with the close coils downwards towards the cylinder head"

can someone please explain to me what that means?

i've posted a couple of photos of the new springs
they are all marked with green paint on one side - top or bottom - (but sides do not appear different to each other, at least not in their shape)

the old springs that were in the head are exactly the same (but there are no paint marks)

i'm not sure i'm explaining this well but that's probably cos i'm confused here... :confused:

cheers

jonbuoy

19th April 2007, 21:22

psyguy

19th April 2007, 21:41

Do they mean they are a progressive springs? - If that is what they are meaning then it looks kind of like the green paint should be on top. Bummer about those pistons. Maybe a few might come on on ebay? Do Wiseco or anyone else make an aftermarket or big bore kit?

could they be "progressive" without looking any different in shape from side to side???

sorry to say, but wiseco has nothing listed for 850. they do oversize for 750 - to bring it up to 850!!! i recon the inserts on the 850 are too thin to bring them a whole engine size up - to a 1000

may need to go with the standard pistons if i get too frustrated surfing ebay three times a day seven days a week hoping for something to come up :sick:

Ixion

19th April 2007, 21:52

jonbuoy

19th April 2007, 22:13

I read on one of the SOHC forums you can get the skirts built up with some kind of metal spray coating called PC-9 you might have to send them away though

http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10964

psyguy

19th April 2007, 22:35

Valve springs, it's not the shape its the coil spacing. Look at your first picture, note the spring in the centre. The distance between the coils at the top is manifestly different wider apart) to the distance between the coils at the bottom. The "close together" coils go at the bottom.

Pistons: If you are on standard now, why are you overboring to 1.0m (+40 thou) surely there can't be that much wear? Are the bores scored badly? If not, why not try for +20 pistons (0.5mm Pt no 12103-45830-050). Of course they may not be available either, but it doubles your chances. And that number is a supercession number which often means that they've adopted a part used in another model, so even more chance.

mate, you know your stuff ... that's why i posted this thread - hoping to learn from others. cheers for all your help!

i actually figured it would have to do with the coil spacing! and i looked at the springs but could not see any difference there... and now that you pointed it out to me, it suddenly became so obvious... :innocent:

yup, the green paint mark goes on top, i can see that...

now, i haven't measured the bores myself but at a reputable shop ("henderson reconditioners", i think) i was told the bores are up to 3 thou out of new and that honig would bring them to 4 thou - and that's just the limit of wear that the manual suggests is when you need a rebore (i don't have the experience so the manual is like a bible to me)
also, i come from a "metric" country so inches and parts thereof are very confusing for me, i can't really visualise what they mean...

no, the cylinders are not badly scored, just lots of minor vertical lines that would, i believe, disappear with honing (sorry, can't get it visible on a photo)

i didn't go for 0.5 pistons as they have been discontinued a long time ago and are listed as such on many websites, while the 1.0 are still listed as available
so i ordered 1.0 from alpha-sports, but, as you know, got only two pistons ...

if you are able to take an accurate measurement of the cylinders i'd be quite keen to come over and find out where i stand, for certain

Ixion

19th April 2007, 22:43

If they're only 4 thou worn, they'll easily clean up at 20 over . Are the later (supercession) pistons unobtainable? They'll be obsolete for sure, but often stocks are availble for a long time after they're obsoleted by Suzuki . Alpha-sports still list them as available. If necessary there's no big deal about boring two cylinders to +40 and two to +20, just pick balancing cylinders (one up one own each size) .

I don't have an internal mic, I usually just go by feel and a thumbnail, but I'd believe what a reconditioner said, it souns sensible.

psyguy

20th April 2007, 00:21

spares direct uk quoted me 0.5 oversized pistons and rings they have in stock
all 4 sets ... 300 pounds, plus postage

and i would be left with the other two new pistons and 4 sets of rings 1.0 i already paid for...

this is getting more and more complicated...
but i'll make a decission eventually :sunny:

pete376403

20th April 2007, 08:44

Desperate situations call for desperate measures...:yes:
I have a set of MTC forged pistons that have been removed from a GS1000. In good condition except for a bit of pitting on the crowns due to high compression and shitty petrol. IF you CANNOT source 850 pistons anywhere else you could see if the MTCs can be turned down (the skirts are quite thick) to suit, The crowns could also be reduced to get the comprtession back to reasonable. Piston rings are required, but they are the same size as Honda Civic Shuttle 1500.

I have heard that the 850 is basically a 1000 top end on a 750 crank so if this is true the MTC sizes should be pretty close.

Also PM me your address (or post it here if you like) and I'll send up the factory manual. I started to scan it into the PC but it's going to take forever.

pete376403

20th April 2007, 09:24

Another thought - have you tried suziparts in Adelaide? All they do is nos for zooks http://www.suziparts.com.au/

psyguy

20th April 2007, 09:44

Another thought - have you tried suziparts in Adelaide? All they do is nos for zooks http://www.suziparts.com.au/

tried it, no luck

however, i'm now onto 0.5 oversize (instead of 1.0 that's impossible to find), as somebody might have these still in stock

but thanks for your "desparate option" suggestion, i'll see how i go, i'm certainly getting a better understanding of various options :sunny:

i'll pm you the address

cheers

terbang

20th April 2007, 09:49

If it were an 1100 I would give it a light hone out to the 4 thou limit and even a bit more if you have too and chuck it back together with a new set of rings (and piston pin clips for peace of mind). There are allways vertical scores on those bores that should easily hone out but if they are deep enough for the hone to not work then its a rebore or resleeve (which can be done to these things)... She will easily do another 20000 kays like that while you look for a decent oversize kit. Its only gaskets that you will waste later when you do fit your big bore kit... Those GS engines will run fine way out on the bore to piston tolerances as long as your ring groves are good. I'm running one now that I assembled at 4 thou limit and Its running just fine. Don't get too agressive with the hone and use a fine stone. Too much honing will give you excesive 2nd ring wear. Assmble them with only light oil (I use ATF) on the bores.
Resleeving is worth a look as long as your piston ring groves are good or, and in my view the best option, a big bore kit from Wiseco.

psyguy

20th April 2007, 09:52

If it were an 1100 I would ...
thanks terbang
i'm getting a good picture of my options now and things no longer look as grim :sunny:

psyguy

20th April 2007, 12:52

psyguy

20th April 2007, 12:57

... Resleeving is worth a look as long as your piston ring groves are good or, and in my view the best option, a big bore kit from Wiseco.

what big bore kit from wiseco do you have in mind?
i couldn't find anything from them for 850 and the next size up -1000 - the pistons have bigger gudgeon pin (as far as i'm informed)

Ixion

20th April 2007, 13:09

alpha-sports offered to exchange my 1.0 pistons for 0.5 (yes, they recon they have all 4 of them)
but the rings are no longer available in 0.5...

they suggested that "the 1.0 rings are easily resized to 0.5"

can someone please comment on this, like what it takes to do it, who can do it, at what sort of price, is this really the way to go, etc?

many thanks again

I've done this in the past. Basically you just carefully file a few thou off the rings ends, to get the gap correct. However it certainly couldn't be described as standard practice.

However, unless they are "special" rings (stepped, keystone , or whatever), rings are a pretty standard thing. Try taking an existing piston into one of the big reconditioners, and explaining that you need "these type riungs, but for +20 thou larger". If they can't help directly , ask if they'll tell you where they get their rings from. Also there are companies that specialise in piston rings. Google "piston rings"

psyguy

24th April 2007, 19:15

while on the quest for those pistons, i wasn't quite idle in the other departments either

the engine bottom is now back in frame
the valves back in the head, all carefully grinded, fitted with NEW springs :sunny:
the head mating surface planed, apparently was 8 thou out (had this done by some nice guys at "west auckland reconditioners" - they have a garage full of american v8 cars, so you don't mind going there or having to wait :innocent: )

i also went to DODGYITI's to check out that mean guzzi he's doing up, looks very promissing!

went to CLASSIC Z's garage to have some spark plug thread inserts fitted (visible on the photo below) so no more worries with worn threads
had a chance to check out his latest project - (if i'm not mistaken) a turbo injected z1300 :gob: ! can't wait to see the progress there

cheers everyone

psyguy

24th April 2007, 19:23

a question here for those good people that help me out whenever i need it :sunny:

is there any reason why not to proceed with checking/adjusting valve shims while the head is off?

(there isn't anything else i need to do right now, so i thought i could do these adjustments - and order new shims if needed)

also, can i do without the original valve spring depressing tool?!

any other tips?

thanks!

psyguy

24th April 2007, 19:33

having exchanged dozens and dozens of emails with bike parts places i think finally i might have the last two pistons on their way!

anderson-vintage-parts first said they didn't have them but now they recon they do, so i ordered some, and will see how it goes...

also had a guy in singapore! (off ebay) tell me he had some but they turned out to be pistons for a gs425
interestingly, the 13 digit part number was nearly the same:
gs850: 12111-45100-100
gs425: 12111-45110-100

Ixion

24th April 2007, 19:47

OHC engine, usually no reason why you can't set the valve clearance on the bench. Only issue may be if they have to be set at a certain position, but that's rare, usually it's just on the rock.

psyguy

24th April 2007, 20:08

OHC engine, usually no reason why you can't set the valve clearance on the bench. Only issue may be if they have to be set at a certain position, but that's rare, usually it's just on the rock.

what's "on the rock"?
the service manual suggests the clearances have to be checked with the cam lobe away from the shim (if that's what you mean?)
thanks

Ixion

24th April 2007, 21:15

Yep. with the cam turned so that both valves are fully closed (well, all 4 on a 4 valver) .

How did you find dealing with Tad ? I think I'm going to need something from him. When he first started AVP report was he was really good, helpful and on the ball. Then he had a period when he had some personal problems, and the business sort of got away on him , and some people were pretty unhappy.

Lately reports are that he's got it back together again. But I see he's had some sort of big falling out just the other week with the two stroke 'zuki guys. Dunno what about, nobody's talking about it.

psyguy

24th April 2007, 21:41

How did you find dealing with Tad ?

uh, sorry, who's tad / avp ?

Ixion

24th April 2007, 21:54

Tad Anderson. Anderson Vintage Parts. You said you were getting your pistons from him ?

psyguy

24th April 2007, 22:37

Tad Anderson. Anderson Vintage Parts. You said you were getting your pistons from him ?

oh, yes.. as i said - they first said they didn't have the pistons, then i said that their website suggests they have them in stock, then they said they actually have them...

then i went to order some and the shipping came up to us $170!
so i complained
and they adjusted the shipping to us$50

as per their prices, i find them somewhat more expensive (in their website price listings) than say alpha-sports or bike-bandit, but these other guys add some "tax" at the end of your purchase so i think it equals out

so, not sure what to tell you... perhaps to double check the availability of all the parts you need and check for the accurate postage before pushing the "buy" button?

also, sometimes they answered my email quickly, sometimes they didn't

i don't know what you're after but i find z-enterprises one of my favourite websites and best prices too. they don't have such a large offer though.

anyhow, i try to stay away from places in the uk as their prices often match those in the us, but are in british pounds! so can be 50-80% dearer!

Ixion

24th April 2007, 22:46

Hm. sounds like he still hasn't quite got it together. He's a really nice guy(well, insofar as one can tell of a person one has only "met" online), but not the brightest star in the sky, and not too good at the administrative stuff.

Guess I'll try him and see. Thanks for the heads up about postage I'll make sure I get a quote from him first.

Know what you mean about UK. Only thing is. sometimes their postage can be a LOT cheaper than the US. Which if it's a cheap but heavy item can make a difference.

pete376403

25th April 2007, 15:39

As far as setting valve clearances goes, being able to do them with the head on the bench is one of the greatest advantages of an OHC (or DOHC) engine.

Do you have the Suzuki tools for pushing the buckets down so you can get the shim out without pulling the cams? I have a couple, and will send them up with the manual. Send them back when you've finished.

pete376403

25th April 2007, 15:51

also had a guy in singapore! (off ebay) tell me he had some but they turned out to be pistons for a gs425
interestingly, the 13 digit part number was nearly the same:
gs850: 12111-45100-100
gs425: 12111-45110-100

425 twin = 850 four? could the seller tell you the diameter of the pistons?

The 400/425/450/500 twins were essentially half of a four cylinder engine .
BTW the MTC pistons I've got won't suit - the GS1000L they came from was bored out to 1100 (and was quite the goer until it was until the previous owner rode it into the back of a stopped car). I bought the wreck for parts so if there are other bits you are after I might be able to help

psyguy

25th April 2007, 17:16

425 twin = 850 four?

yeah, that's what i figured too, but then i asked the all knowing guys at gs-resources, and learnt the pistons are a different diameter... :angry:
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=107378
but thanks for the thought!

psyguy

25th April 2007, 17:24

Do you have the Suzuki tools for pushing the buckets down so you can get the shim out without pulling the cams? I have a couple, and will send them up with the manual. Send them back when you've finished.

pete376403 you're a legend!
i was about to post a question if someone's got the tool!
thanks a bunch :sunny:

psyguy

25th April 2007, 17:31

GS1000L I bought the wreck for parts so if there are other bits you are after I might be able to help

thanks, but uh, it's hard to know what bits might be the same...

airbox rubber hoses?
looking at the schematics on the web, i'd say they're different

valve shims?
i'm after 2.40 and 2.45mm

m10 engine mounting lock-nut?

cylinder head half-round oil plug?

head m6 bolts (2 of) that go on the out-sides (bolts with a flange hex head)?

seat hand-rail rubber groomets?

front footrests with really good rubber?

clutch lever (black)?

headlamp unit with good reflection surface?! (mine is peeling off)
i guess this part wouldnt've survived that crash!

4into2 headers?

that's what i can think of, of the top of my head... not a bad memory, ay?!

would you have any photos of the bike?
that might be a good starting point for the comparison
what's the mileage on that bike?

pete376403

25th April 2007, 21:30

thanks, but uh, it's hard to know what bits might be the same...
airbox rubber hoses?
looking at the schematics on the web, i'd say they're different
valve shims?
i'm after 2.40 and 2.45mm
m10 engine mounting lock-nut?
cylinder head half-round oil plug?
head m6 bolts (2 of) that go on the out-sides (bolts with a flange hex head)?
seat hand-rail rubber groomets?
front footrests with really good rubber?
clutch lever (black)?
headlamp unit with good reflection surface?! (mine is peeling off)
i guess this part wouldnt've survived that crash!
4into2 headers?
that's what i can think of, of the top of my head... not a bad memory, ay?!
would you have any photos of the bike?
that might be a good starting point for the comparison
what's the mileage on that bike?

Mileage was 65K when it hit the back of a stopped car. Right up to that moment it was travelling about 80 -90kmh. So, the healight, forks, instruments are pretty mangled. The tank has a big dent where the rider nutted it. The frame is a lot shorter than it used to be and the steering head angle is a LOT steeper. The front wheel flattened the header pipes, yet remarkably the wheel is perfectly round. I even re-used the tire (risky, I know). Airbox to carb hoses - CV or slide carbs? These are slide type.
Can do 2.39 and 2.55 shims - there's a bit of latitude, or may be a problem with my micrometer/eyesight . Have the half round rubber (end of camshaft recess). Footrests with good rubber, ditto for pillion rests. Clutch lever ad bolts/nuts - probably in the box. 1000L didn't have pillion grab rail so not rubber inserts for that.

psyguy

26th April 2007, 19:10

Airbox to carb hoses - CV or slide carbs? These are slide type.
Can do 2.39 and 2.55 shims - there's a bit of latitude, or may be a problem with my micrometer/eyesight . Have the half round rubber (end of camshaft recess). Footrests with good rubber, ditto for pillion rests. Clutch lever ad bolts/nuts - probably in the box. 1000L didn't have pillion grab rail so not rubber inserts for that.

huh, i think mine are cv carbs

so, i'd be interested in:

M12 lock-nut (sorry, not m10 as i said earlier)
two M6x50 bolts (with flanged hex head)
one halfround oil seal
clutch lever
two 2.40mm shims

cheers

classic zed

26th April 2007, 20:01

psyguy

26th April 2007, 21:56

The GS is looking really good from the pics. :niceone:

I finally found time to get the mixture right and balance the carbs on the Z so I have an excuse to take her out for a ride, I will come over and have a look :scooter:

sweet as!

and i won't miss the oportunity to pick your brain on setting the carbs as that's in line for me too :innocent:

psyguy

27th April 2007, 20:24

got the side covers and engine bars back from the polishers today

work done by the "progressive polishers" new lynn
as you can see i can recomend them
polished alu side covers are close to being as shiny as those chromed bars :yes:

jonbuoy

27th April 2007, 21:00

Wow, how much was that to get done?

psyguy

27th April 2007, 21:48

Wow, how much was that to get done?

alu covers polished $300
bars chromed $100
all parts were in quite a bad shape before (i realize now)

i tried polishing a part myself but got nowhere near this finish - "autosol" for example is a way too coarse a paste and leaves marks, that finest "steel wool -0000" gives only a matt finish, and a regular polishing wheel i have just can't take enough of the oxidation off... not to mention the frustration of not getting the desired result...

jonbuoy

28th April 2007, 09:56

alu covers polished $300
bars chromed $100
all parts were in quite a bad shape before (i realize now)

i tried polishing a part myself but got nowhere near this finish - "autosol" for example is a way too coarse a paste and leaves marks, that finest "steel wool -0000" gives only a matt finish, and a regular polishing wheel i have just can't take enough of the oxidation off... not to mention the frustration of not getting the desired result...

I can imagine how long it would take me to get that mirror finish, looks fantastic. Not too bad a price considering how fiddley they are.

Eurodave

29th April 2007, 10:58

got the side covers and engine bars back from the polishers today ....polished alu side covers are close to being as shiny as those chromed bars :yes:

Yeah, nice :), BUT, they wont stay that way for long!
At the risk of repeating myself :shutup: , YOU NEED TO CLEARCOAT THEM !!:yes: Dont worry ,youll thank me later:innocent:

psyguy

29th April 2007, 11:18

Yeah, nice :), BUT, they wont stay that way for long!
At the risk of repeating myself :shutup: , YOU NEED TO CLEARCOAT THEM !!:yes: Dont worry ,youll thank me later:innocent:

thank you eurodave
you seem to have had some bad experiences?!

Eurodave

29th April 2007, 11:37

thank you eurodave
you seem to have had some bad experiences?!

Not boasting, but Ive spent the last 30 years playing with many many bikes & have found out the hard way that 'experience is what you get AFTER you need it!!'

psyguy

29th April 2007, 11:44

Not boasting, but Ive spent the last 30 years playing with many many bikes & have found out the hard way that 'experience is what you get AFTER you need it!!'

oh, i can relate to that! :angry:

jonbuoy

29th April 2007, 12:36

BTW - who did the re-chrome on the engine bars?- it looks great. I have some things I need done too.

Dodgyiti

29th April 2007, 13:59

Psyguy-
So I sprayed the Glisten PC 2 coats over 2 weeks.
Hard for the pictures to show that it looks like water is runing off kinda.
2 advantages with spraying;

Used hardly any paint but got right in the finning etc
Dusted a final almost dry coat on to bring down the shine level a little, it was looking a bit too bling.

I expect that the kit would do another 3 engines and boxs from what I used on one. Just thinking what else needs a coat or 2..
Your polishing parts look great.
I did the forks and diff myself but they did not come out as good as that.
Regards,
Michael.

psyguy

29th April 2007, 14:55

BTW - who did the re-chrome on the engine bars?- it looks great. I have some things I need done too.

"progressive polishers and electroplaters", new lynn

yes, the new chrome looks so good, kind of really thick appearance and deep shine!
and the bars originally looked so bad that at one other place i was told the condition was so bad they couldn't be chromed at all...

mind you, those bars now look so much better than any other chromed part on the bike...

psyguy

29th April 2007, 15:01

Psyguy-
So I sprayed the Glisten PC 2 coats over 2 weeks...

hm, not sure if you're happy with it then or not completely?
it does look quite BLING but i think that effect should tone down a bit once everything is together and on the bike, and among all the other parts
at least that's my experience now the bottom part of my engine is back in the frame
cheers

jonbuoy

29th April 2007, 15:51

"progressive polishers and electroplaters", new lynn

yes, the new chrome looks so good, kind of really thick appearance and deep shine!
and the bars originally looked so bad that at one other place i was told the condition was so bad they couldn't be chromed at all...

mind you, those bars now look so much better than any other chromed part on the bike...

Thanks for that - Yeah I know what you mean - get one bit looking good and its like putting a gucci earing in a pigs ear. Damm budgets going out the window.

Dodgyiti

29th April 2007, 20:33

not sure if you're happy with it then or not completely?
it does look quite BLING but i think that effect should tone down a bit once everything is together and on the bike

Yeah, I'm happy with it, but as far as tone down, what if everything else on the bike is bling? Yes well, ummm.....:shit:

psyguy

30th April 2007, 18:03

Thanks for that - Yeah I know what you mean - get one bit looking good and its like putting a gucci earing in a pigs ear. Damm budgets going out the window.

well put jonbuoy!

psyguy

1st May 2007, 18:01

got the standard size piston rings today
i ordered them as a back up plan in case i can't find those two oversized pistons that i'm still after

so, cleaned the pistons and removed the old rings and checked the rings groves
botom and middle groves are up to spec, the top grove is just 0.02mm wider than the original, so i guess that ok (?!)

anyhow, a sigh of relief here, as i can now reasemble the engine if i get fed up chasing those oversize pistons

psyguy

1st May 2007, 18:15

went to check the air filter...

found it soaked in a blue sticky glue like liquid :sick:
someone had a home made blue foam sealer glued in between the airfilter and its housing - and when it came into contact with the oil vapours (that come through the oil breather tube from the engine) it must have started disintegrating - hence the blue sticky matter :angry:

anyhow, a litre of paint brush cleaner sorted that and the filter's good again, and properly oiled

psyguy

1st May 2007, 18:39

the airbox i though i should leave for later, when i have the frame painted, but it looked so sad i had a go at it too :yes:

had it paint stripped and treated for rust, painted it black and clearcoated it

still not the pretiest, but way better then it was. second place, i'd say... :second:

the photo exaggerates all the imperfections, it doesn't look that bad in reality
believe me! :innocent:

psyguy

1st May 2007, 18:52

the rubber boots i found all deformed and hardened in places and even shrunk
they only loosely fit in the airbox openings and there would have been a massive leak, the air bypassing the air filter

mind you, that clogged up sticky filter wouldn't have let much air through, so maybe not a bad setup altogether!!! :shit:

so, ordered a set of new boots :sunny:

terbang

1st May 2007, 19:46

Good move, you will be surprised how much easier the 'Airbox wrestle' will be when it comes to fitting the carbs and Airbox. If you havn't allready, though I don't know what type is on the 850, a set of intake boots (cyl head side) is a good move too.

Eurodave

1st May 2007, 21:12

went to check the air filter...

found it soaked in a sticky glue like liquid :sick:
someone had a home made blue foam sealer glued in between the airfilter and its housing - and when it came into contact with the oil vapours (that come through the oil breather tube from the engine) it must have started disintegrating - hence the blue sticky matter :angry:

FYI; on my GS750 I got some proper green sheet 'Unifilter' foam & a hot glue gun & replaced the mutton cloth(!!!) wrap it had when I first bought it. I also whipped the 2 layers of fine wire mesh out & I oil it with a teaspoon of the gloopy unifilter foam filter oil mixed with a teaspoon of turps, it does get in & avoids overoiling too:Punk:

psyguy

1st May 2007, 21:52

a set of intake boots (cyl head side) is a good move too.

those were/are in remarkably good condition, i guess they must have been replaced at some stage

psyguy

1st May 2007, 22:02

FYI; on my GS750 I got some proper green sheet 'Unifilter' foam & a hot glue gun & replaced the mutton cloth(!!!) wrap it had when I first bought it. I also whipped the 2 layers of fine wire mesh out & I oil it with a teaspoon of the gloopy unifilter foam filter oil mixed with a teaspoon of turps, it does get in & avoids overoiling too:Punk:

thanks!
what was the effect of taking that wire mesh out?

ps. mutton cloth(!!!) wrap - wtf ?!

Eurodave

1st May 2007, 22:36

thanks!
what was the effect of taking that wire mesh out?

ps. mutton cloth(!!!) wrap - wtf ?!

Nothing overly noticable, I just thought all that mesh must be restrictive & unnecessary,prolly breathing freer & running a little leaner now, would have prefered a K&N filter but theyre very pricey

The motor wasnt running (& very smoky cause it had been overfilled with 5 litres of oil!!! ) when I bought it & had a piece of muttoncloth wrapped around the metal airfilter frame!! :shit: There are gorrillas amongst us:innocent:
Got it going good now, finally....

psyguy

2nd May 2007, 09:42

Nothing overly noticable, I just thought all that mesh must be restrictive & unnecessary,prolly breathing freer & running a little leaner now, would have prefered a K&N filter but theyre very pricey

The motor wasnt running (& very smoky cause it had been overfilled with 5 litres of oil!!! ) when I bought it & had a piece of muttoncloth wrapped around the metal airfilter frame!! :shit: There are gorrillas amongst us:innocent:
Got it going good now, finally....

i know what you mean about k&n - got a quote for nz$117 and 6-8 weeks delivery time!
mind you, if you're still interested there are some on ebay going for us$25 + airmail to nz us$23
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110070383531&rd=1,1

now, 5 litres of oil?! :gob: doesn't the clutch cover have an imprint 2800ml ? and isnt't there an oil level window ?

psyguy

4th May 2007, 14:42

some help needed again please

i want to adjust the carb float levels

haynes manual suggests to do this by:
inverting the carbs and measuring the distance from the mixing chamber body flange to the top of the floats when in the "closed position"

does the "closed position" mean that the float needle valve has to be pressed in - like in a photo #1 ?
(photo #2 shows the floats just resting on the valve but not pressing it)

thanks again

psyguy

5th May 2007, 13:22

i want to adjust the carb float levels (see the post above)

huh, someone must have done this before, no ?! :mellow:

pete376403

6th May 2007, 20:41

psyguy

6th May 2007, 21:17

What does the Suzuki manual say about it, or does that only cover the older slide type carbs?

Also re-reading your post - I think it means with the weight of the float only, is not pressing against the spring loading. Also what are the float needle tips like - any wear?

suzuki manual (although referring only to vm carbs) doesn't go as far to say "floats in the closed position" - it only says "carburettors inverted"
after some thinking i deducted that this must then mean "only resting on the needle" because if the needle needed to be pressed closed this would have been mentioned explicitly
what do you think?

in this regard, hayne's manual even though saying more than suzuki's is actually less clear than suzuki's... :angry:

the reason i asked is because i hear these carbs are very sensitive to the correct setting of the floats (the height has to be within the +/- 1mm margin) and depressing the valve adds 5mm or so

didn't check the float needles really - they all appear consistent with each other and anyway i'm planning to take the carbs appart and check everything on a later date when i have the complete rebuild kits in front of me :yes:

thanks for your opinion pete, it helped provoke some more though on my part!

cheers

psyguy

6th May 2007, 22:00

on an issue hopefully simpler than the carb float level - i want to try repair a damaged thread (on the frame) for a footrest mounting bolt
i take this is fine thread M10, so M10x1.25

would anyone have the tap in this size that i could borrow?
help much appreciated!

ps
or is this where someone tells me that jap's don't follow iso standards for threads???

Dodgyiti

7th May 2007, 16:06

or is this where someone tells me that jap's don't follow iso standards for threads???

They have seemed pretty standard in my explorations of them.
Can't help with the M10 unless it's just a tap you are after, but if the thread is a bit stuffed a Helicoil would be prudent to install for piece of mind. Can't help you there either as I only have M8/M6 and I pick up an M5 later this week. But keep those sizes I listed in mind as you may need them later.
You have done very well getting that engine apart given it's age, without having too many stuck bolt problems, buy a Lotto ticket.
The best Helicoil kit is about $70 and comes with 10 coils, they are about $2 each to keep it topped up. On sale at Waitamata Hydralics in Henderson- make a trip there for your steel and stainless steel cap screws etc as well- they have a great range in stock.

psyguy

7th May 2007, 16:38

They have seemed pretty standard in my explorations of them.
Can't help with the M10 unless it's just a tap you are after, but if the thread is a bit stuffed a Helicoil would be prudent to install for piece of mind. Can't help you there either as I only have M8/M6 and I pick up an M5 later this week. But keep those sizes I listed in mind as you may need them later.
You have done very well getting that engine apart given it's age, without having too many stuck bolt problems, buy a Lotto ticket.
The best Helicoil kit is about $70 and comes with 10 coils, they are about $2 each to keep it topped up. On sale at Waitamata Hydralics in Henderson- make a trip there for your steel and stainless steel cap screws etc as well- they have a great range in stock.

hi dodgyiti

yes, at this stage i'm only after an m10x1.25 tap (ie. fine threaded m10)
is that what you have?

with regards to m6 & m8 helicoils i am actually going to need them to fix some cam cover threads as well as a few header pipes ones

but yeah, you're right, i had no problems with any stuck bolts, if anything my problem was quite the oposite, all the bolts were all too loose so i had to helicoil everything to get a proper torque...

btw, those helicoils kits usually come with 1,5d coils whereas the recomended size for alluminium is 2d

$70 is a good price, i was quoted $10-30 more at several places!

jonbuoy

7th May 2007, 20:15

pete376403

7th May 2007, 21:12

pete376403

7th May 2007, 21:15

And re the float levels - you could make up a guage tube that attaches to the bowl drain plug hole and goes up the side of the carb- as per the Suzi manual. That removes any doubt at all as then you are seeing the float level as it really is.

And check out this regarding carb rebuilds:
http://www.thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

psyguy

7th May 2007, 21:28

And re the float levels - you could make up a guage tube that attaches to the bowl drain plug hole and goes up the side of the carb- as per the Suzi manual. That removes any doubt at all as then you are seeing the float level as it really is.

i thought of doing this AFTER instaling the carbs on the bike, but i guess i can actually do it on the bench, can't i?

And check out this regarding carb rebuilds:
http://www.thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

yup, have it, a fantastic pictorial!

psyguy

7th May 2007, 21:32

How concerned are you with "absolute factory" as far as your resoration goes - because the PO of the GS1000 (the parts bike) replaced all the hex head bolts with inhex (allen) stainless. Problem would be - if you replaced some but not all, could look a bit dodgy. However, if you could live with that, I've got the threads you need

not concerned at all
however, those footrest mounting bolts are probably the best looking bolts on the whole bike, imo anyway, so i'd like to go the original way if i can
been to the atomic wreckers in ackl, they don't have it, but still have a few places to check before thinking of alternatives
cheers

psyguy

7th May 2007, 21:40

I have an M10 1/1.5/1.75 in my kit not much help I know but I got the whole kit off trademe for $60 or so a 60 piece set - there are some bigger ones on there that might have the size you need. Its paid for itself already - its only chinese crap but I still managed to cut a fairly long thread on an A2 M10 bolt.

i actually have a set myself, but not the m10 fine, and just thought i want to spare myself trying in hurry to find one to buy + spending money on it right now
mind you, that price is amazing (even if it was only a disposable set!)

psyguy

8th May 2007, 18:51

found the bolt i need, at atomic wreckers
it happens to be 5mm longer than the original which is just perfect as i now just need to find that tap and make the thread in the frame a bit longer (and there is enough room to do it)

so, with no luck finding a fine threaded m10 tap to borrow, would someone maybe know where i could buy it?

ps
i was after a high grade steel fine threaded m10 lock-nuts some time ago and couldn't find them anywhere, in like a dozen major places, so i'm worried this search doesn't take the same route...

jonbuoy

8th May 2007, 18:55

terbang

8th May 2007, 20:15

850 body parts here http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Frames-bodywork/auction-98487885.htm?p=8

psyguy

9th May 2007, 11:50

850 body parts here http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Frames-bodywork/auction-98487885.htm?p=8

thanks, i've seen them. would be a nice complement to my work, but financially it's not the right time for me...:angry:

psyguy

9th May 2007, 22:31

A decent engineering shop - wairua engineering or blackwoods and Paykel will have them - only problem is they will be real high quality and probably as much for one as a whole set of crap chinese ones. Bummer.

blackwood quoted me $47 for one piece
so, i scored a 40 piece set off trademe for $26

i now also have taps and dies as small as M3x0.5, not sure what to use them for though, maybe to fix a fine swiss wrist watch ???

psyguy

15th May 2007, 23:05

having re-coiled all the crankcases some time ago, i now re-coiled the remaining dodgy threads in the cylinder head, etc
i thought i should post my finding as it may be useful to other people servicing older bikes

with most engine threads the problem was with the threads in the holes rather than on the bolts (as the parts are alu alloy hence softer material than the steel bolts)
what i found however is that once i re-coil the holes i start having problems with the bolts...
i snapped a bolt or two trying to test-tighten them to a proper torque (in a re-coil insert), the bolts that seemed fine at first
(the thread in the bolt actually remains intact but the bolt snaps just above the coil insert)

so, the narative is to ideally replace the bolt (if old or if of crapy material) whenever re-coiling a thread

finding suitable m6 and m8 flange bolts is proving a major difficulty though

Macktheknife

16th May 2007, 11:47

Have you been to MSL in Avondale, or maybe the fastener shop in Constellation Dr, they may be able to help.

psyguy

16th May 2007, 12:08

Have you been to MSL in Avondale, or maybe the fastener shop in Constellation Dr, they may be able to help.

thanks, yup, tried both places. i've been through this before... the retailers end up calling each other to see if they can get what you need from someone else :zzzz:
champion parts melbourne (available at repco, etc.) do high tensile flange bolts but finding the right lenght is difficult. i may have to buy longer ones and cut them

psyguy

17th May 2007, 20:31

atom fasteners east tamaki have a limited range of m6 and m8 flange bolts, so i bought a few i need for inside the engine
they are high tensile 10.9 grade

other than atom fasteners, the only other flange bolts i could find come from champion parts melbourne, distributed through repco and some other places, but their availability is scarce (and they're sold in packages only and sometimes come only together with the nuts)

however, i think they are the best oem replacement available at least as far as the looks go (they are high tensile but would still need to be chromed to eliminate rusting)

psyguy

17th May 2007, 20:50

everyone told me to stay away from this guy when looking for parts

but he was the only one who said he actually had in stock the pistons i'm after
i placed my order nearly 5 weeks ago but it got misteriously cancelled a week later, by a "glitch in the computer system" as he called it
then, because of the same "glitch" i couldn't place another order for another two weeks
he wouldn't accept paypal payment even though that's a listed method of payment on his website
he also wouldn't have me give him the credit card details over the phone

since i finally placed the order two weeks ago he hasn't been responding to my queries regards the order status, other than to say he was out of the office (and "out of the state on a personal matter") but would get in touch upon his return...

so, i still don't know whether those pistons really exist in his store...

you guessed, i'm a bit :sick: by now

psyguy

17th May 2007, 21:05

no, she's not finished, i just provisionally put some bits together to get enchanted each time i walk into the garage :sunny:

psyguy

17th May 2007, 21:16

with the oversized pistons still being the unknown:

i took the block to the shop for honing and planing and will for now install the standard size pistons with new rings
the valve clearances are all done as are all necessary heli-coils + a few new bolts
the bottom end has been done for some time now, so, prety much i should be ready to start putting back together the top end some time next week

the new airbox boots are on their way from the usa
(as are some other bits i could not resist not buying in the same go :innocent: )

psyguy

18th May 2007, 19:42

as always, help much appreciated... :rockon:

1.
the service manual says to fit the two top rings so that the stamped letter "R" faces the top
my rings are aftermarket and stamped "N"
do i still follow the same logic?

2.
the photo below shows the cross section of the original two top rings
my second ring however (to my eye) is square in the cross section (and not angled as in the photo)
does that matter at all?

cheers

Dodgyiti

22nd May 2007, 16:38

Every motor I have done has said either in the manual or after market spares instructions -the number or letter on the ring goes uppermost to the piston crown. Perhaps it is not 100% in every case, it is fairly good odds it will be the same.

Bike is looking good, it will be a real nice example when you get it how you want it.

The '82 GSX had a nice seat/tail/fairing, and the second pic is the Yank version of yours I think, in poo brown no less but the front and rear guards in chrome or stainless is neat.

pete376403

23rd May 2007, 21:14

The bike in the second pic is a 750 or 1000 L - cruiser style thing. Quite different to the standard bike - longer forks, tiny tank, king'n'queen seat, fat back wheel. I bought a wrecked 1000 L hoping to salvage parts for my GS1100GK, but there wasn't that much that was a straight swap.
I've a good 1000L seat if anyones looking, and some pretty good standard mufflers.
Ivor, sorry I haven't got those head bolts out for you yet, if you still need them I'll get them to you in the next couple of days.

pete376403

23rd May 2007, 21:26

jonbuoy

23rd May 2007, 22:59

On the Honda all the markings have to face up - N is for normal and I think R is regular - pretty much same thing, if they have a number - it would mean they were oversize rings.

psyguy

24th May 2007, 08:32

Gettig the rings the correct way up is the difrenece between a good running engine and an oil pump.
these guys http://www.racetep.com/totalsealframe.html
suggest this:

thanks pete
as per the service manual and your info, my top rings are "barrel face" and second rings are "taper face". however, the cross-section of the second ring doesn't apear tappered (but square) - well, at least to the naked eye.
so, i'll follow the logic of fitting the rings the stamped side upwards.
hopefully, i don't make an oil pump but a good running engine! :innocent:

Alive

24th May 2007, 17:17

I see you're making progress... Good stuff ;)

psyguy

24th May 2007, 21:59

I see you're making progress... Good stuff ;)

yup, thanks, should post a progress report in the next few days, have all the parts now except the airbox boots (they're somewhere over the pacific right now, i think :love: )

psyguy

24th May 2007, 22:08

I've a good 1000L seat if anyones looking, and some pretty good standard mufflers.
Ivor, sorry I haven't got those head bolts out for you yet, if you still need them I'll get them to you in the next couple of days.

hi pete, have you got just the mufflers, or the whole set maybe?

as for the head bolts, as i posted earlier, i bought some new flange bolts so i'm fine for now. however, the originals look better so i'll talk to you when i get the specs/measurements. thanks

psyguy

24th May 2007, 22:16

On the Honda all the markings have to face up - N is for normal and I think R is regular - pretty much same thing, if they have a number - it would mean they were oversize rings.

great! i struggled figuring out what that "R" might mean. english not being my first language didn't help ...
i installed the rings with the markings facing up

psyguy

24th May 2007, 22:23

hi dodgyiti, thanks for coming over

Every motor I have done has said either in the manual or after market spares instructions -the number or letter on the ring goes uppermost to the piston crown. Perhaps it is not 100% in every case, it is fairly good odds it will be the same.

yeah, i'll have to count on those odds!

front and rear guards in chrome or stainless is neat.

yes, i like the chrome rear guard, but unfortunately it's not a straight swap...

Dodgyiti

25th May 2007, 17:04

The bike in the second pic is a 750 or 1000

It was on USA Ebay listed as a 1982 GS850Z which made me think that parts would be interchangable as to their frame mountings etc. I realise the Japs changed their bikes pretty much every model designation and sometimes inbetween.
It even says it on the sidecover in the picture GS850Z, but it is a USA model, probably never made it here anyway. The rake on the front looks a little more than 'I's bike, otherwise I guestimate the tank to be pretty much the same, but it was the front and rear guards I liked.

:nya: Psyguy's bikes got a fat arse:chase:

Alive

25th May 2007, 17:45

yup, thanks, should post a progress report in the next few days, have all the parts now except the airbox boots (they're somewhere over the pacific right now, i think :love: )

How long before you're ready for the firstride?

psyguy

25th May 2007, 20:24

How long before you're ready for the firstride?

there's not that much work left, a few hours maybe, but i'm quite busy at the moment so don't know when i'll have the time to finish it.
couple of weeks?

psyguy

25th May 2007, 20:51

It was on USA Ebay listed as a 1982 GS850Z which made me think that parts would be interchangable as to their frame ...
It even says it on the sidecover in the picture GS850Z, but it is a USA model, probably never made it here anyway...

well, the letter on the sidecover badge does resemble a "Z" but it's actually an "L"
if it was advertised as a "Z" that's because suzuki's year code for 1982 is "Z"
the engine is the same as on my bike, but the tank, seat, frame, forks, peg mounts, etc are all different
the usa model isn't that different to models for other markets except for the air forks, differently tuned carbs and minor difference in the electrics (and the speedo is obviously in miles)

yup, i've done my research :yes:

:nya: Psyguy's bikes got a fat arse:chase:
??? :mellow:

Alive

25th May 2007, 23:14

there's not that much work left, a few hours maybe, but i'm quite busy at the moment so don't know when i'll have the time to finish it.
couple of weeks?

Sweet... PM me or give me a call and we'll go for a ride.

Dodgyiti

26th May 2007, 08:29

??? :mellow:

Meaning the seat tail section, I forgot how wide it is because it was 18 odd years ago since I used to jump on one from time to time. Just me being a smart arse :whistle: . I do remember the seat and riding position was very comfortable, but what the foam is like after all that time may not be as good.

If you get that bike going in a month, plus everything else you have going on at the moment, your a human dynamo!
:2thumbsup :yeah:
And I will be very jealous as I have to wait 3-4 weeks just for my mufflers from Italy and the rear shocks from Sweden. And I sold that Triumph on Thursday so I am without a running bike and getting itchy already. Yes, it was only 2 days ago. The thought of a month to 6 weeks for me is devastating. I might tidy up that black bike I have in the meantime just to get back on the road.

psyguy

26th May 2007, 22:11

... The thought of a month to 6 weeks for me is devastating. I might tidy up that black bike I have in the meantime just to get back on the road.

Mate i really know what you mean, doing a bike up without having another one to ride really sucks, it adds to the impatience about the project bike, to say the least!
:scooter:

Conquiztador

27th May 2007, 01:49

Like the support you are getting here.

I did notice that you had some of the bits re-chromed. There is something in the chroming process that makes the steel weaker. Not sure what. But know this from years of doing spoked wheels. The secret is to heat treat the steel after the croming. All that means is that you put the parts in your owen on 200 degree's for 1/2 hour and the bits are as strong as before. When you bend a spoke that has been chromed, but not heated, it breaks after two bendings, but if you have had it in the owen it takes six or more bends before it snaps.

I have done the same experiment with other bits that have been chromed and same applies.

So if you chrome brackets and stuff that are under pressure it pays to heat them.

Apart from that there is not much I can add here to help.

Eurodave

27th May 2007, 08:47

There is something in the chroming process that makes the steel weaker. Not sure what.

That would be something called 'hydrogen embrittlement' & yes heat treatment is the cure:yes:

pete376403

27th May 2007, 22:57

It was on USA Ebay listed as a 1982 GS850Z which made me think that parts would be interchangable as to their frame mountings etc. I realise the Japs changed their bikes pretty much every model designation and sometimes inbetween.
It even says it on the sidecover in the picture GS850Z, but it is a USA model, probably never made it here anyway. The rake on the front looks a little more than 'I's bike, otherwise I guestimate the tank to be pretty much the same, but it was the front and rear guards I liked.

:nya: Psyguy's bikes got a fat arse:chase:
You're correct - I didn't look close enough. Giveaway is shaft drive and (this is the biggie) 850 badge on the sde cover!. I know for a fact the 1000L tank was small cos we went on tour with one of them (the one I later bought, crashed) and we had to stop every 150kms or so for a fillup. Amusing at first, but a right PITA as it went on.

pete376403

27th May 2007, 23:03

hi pete, have you got just the mufflers, or the whole set maybe?

as for the head bolts, as i posted earlier, i bought some new flange bolts so i'm fine for now. however, the originals look better so i'll talk to you when i get the specs/measurements. thanks
I've got the mufflers and (I think) the outside pipes. The two inner pipes were squashed flat between the front wheel and the engine. The pipes had a two-into-one junction under engine just in front of where they attached to the muffler. If that sounds any use you can have them, as I'll never use them.

psyguy

30th May 2007, 21:06

The secret is to heat treat the steel after the croming. All that means is that you put the parts in your owen on 200 degree's for 1/2 hour and the bits are as strong as before.

hi conquiztador
thanks for the interesting tip!
right on time, too - baked the hose clamps today :innocent: (just got them back from the platers)
cheers

psyguy

30th May 2007, 21:07

I've got the mufflers and (I think) the outside pipes. The two inner pipes were squashed flat between the front wheel and the engine. The pipes had a two-into-one junction under engine just in front of where they attached to the muffler. If that sounds any use you can have them, as I'll never use them.

thanks pete, sounds good
i'm quite busy at the moment so i'll pm you for the details in due course
cheers

psyguy

4th June 2007, 21:27

it seems i'm getting there ... :yes:

the engine is now complete, turns smoothly (by hand)
all electrics reconnected
carbs and airbox fitted - someone called this task a wrestle - and that's exactly what it was! one of the more difficult things on this project, really! i was clever to use some silicone spray to assist fitting and aligning of all the rubber boots onto the carbs and that helped a lot :sunny: , however i forgot to wipe it off on the outside so all the boot clamps kept sliding away from the position :angry: ... you win some you lose some ...
the throtle cable and the choke cable connected - a bit of a problem here - the choke (when open) doesn't stay in place but gets pulled back (sort of half way) by the return spring at the carbs. not really sure if this is normal or not. before i started the project, the choke could stay fully open and the only thing i did was to lubricate the cable and clean and lubricate that return spring at the carbs. any thoughts?

still to do:

fit the clutch cover (i put a new oil level window on it so it's all nice and clear now :love: )
connect the clutch cable
fit the exhaust
charge the battery (buy the charger first)
pray to god that it all works

jimbo

10th June 2007, 19:27

psyguy

11th June 2007, 18:25

:rockon: Been following your thread with interest.Makes me wish I had swapped the lawn mower for that F2 750 a couple of years back.(TRUE):angry: Any how...very inspiring.Looking forward to the next instalment:yes:

thanks jimbo
yeah, f2 is one of the few bikes i'd be interested in restoring. they come up on trademe every so often, but not for a price of lawn mower :angry:

psyguy

11th June 2007, 18:28

i've done the last few remaining bits
just need to buy some engine oil and she should be ready... :love:

so, fingers crossed :innocent:

pics to follow!

jonbuoy

11th June 2007, 20:07

Blimey that was quick, sounds like you've done everything right good luck with the grand crankover.

psyguy

12th June 2007, 21:09

all excited, went to buy that engine oil this morning :sunny:
entered the shop but got confused as to the correct grade for the oil... :zzzz:
walked out quite dissapointed... :mellow:

never mind, will try again tomorrow :innocent:
:rockon:

Dodgyiti

13th June 2007, 19:00

Wow,
So close now. Well done :yes:

surfer

14th June 2007, 12:20

Excellent and inspiring work Ivor. A good thread to read as well.

Alive

16th June 2007, 09:42

Any luck with the oil yet?

Macktheknife

16th June 2007, 11:00

Ivor, you are an inspiration to us all mate, well done.
That is looking like an amazing job and I can't wait to see you back on it again.
Huge respect.

psyguy

19th June 2007, 20:21

so, i finally managed to buy the correct engine oil and so there were no more excuses not to procede to the final task - starting the engine
the battery although suposedly fully charged wasn't strong enough to get the engine going and i ended up connecting the car battery - and she fired up immediately!
a little warming up and she idled beautifully, no undue sounds, noise, rattles, etc.
i went for only a short ride and thought she's acting so much better now, responds to throtle more easily, with a nicer sound, definitely has more grunt, and just feels somehow properly "tight"

very happy :Punk:

psyguy

19th June 2007, 20:30

as promissed...

psyguy

19th June 2007, 20:49

i started the rebuilt engine just a couple of days before needing to move house
so, being a bit worried that everything goes smoothly on the day of the move, i went to start the bike again the next day (so, one day before the move). she started as well as the day before and idled nicely

finally, the next day i got my gear on, ready to take her for a ride from avondale to my new place in massey

and guess what, she wouldn't start! :sick:

it did start eventually, but worked on only one cylinder! i fiddled with the cables and got her to work on "up to" 3 cylinders, meaning one would work constantly and the other two would kick in on and off...

anyhow, i decided that was good enough (i wasn't going to be messed up with by an old bike :angry: ) so i rode like that for that 20 mins ride and at least got her to my new place. it wasn't an enjoyable ride though...

i think i wanted to take a bit of a time off from working on the bike so i can go for a few proper rides, work those new rings in, but i guess it's back to the workshop for me :angry:

so, would a good soul out there suggest how to go about diagnosing the problem i have?
i'm pretty sure there's either no charge at all in the spark plug leads or the charge is inconsistent (on/off)
what's the first thing to test?

jimbo

19th June 2007, 20:50

:yes: well done that man:rockon: lookin good..enjoy

psyguy

19th June 2007, 20:51

many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread
i couldn't have got this far without your help!
:rockon:

surfer

21st June 2007, 11:17

Really impressed with what you have done.

How much charge is in your battery?

Did you put the ht leads to the correct cylinders?

Have you checked the sparkplugs are firing by holding them one by one against the engine?

Are you using the same fuel that you had lying in the bottom of your tank before the rebuild? If you are drain it and put some new in. Likely you are running crappy fuel or the fuel has bits of debris in it and this has been sucked into the jets. Also your carbs may now need a clean.

What condition is the inside of the tank in? I guess on an older bike you could expect some rust.

Drain the carbs by turning the drain screw open, it is under the fuel bowl. Also check for water droplets. Have a look in the fuel/float bowl and see if you have debris, if there is some there you can bet it has found its way into a jet. You will need to blow the jets clean with compressed air. If you are worried about other debris dropping into the carbs put an inline fuel filter (really cheap to buy from Repco) between the tank and carbs (I fitted one to my bike for same reason).

psyguy

21st June 2007, 19:45

...

thanks surfer
here are my thoughts

i did use the old fuel, but everything was alright on the first two ocassions with the same fuel, so i don't think it's the fuel.
the same goes for the spark plugs, they are nearly new.
i checked the carbs and they appear clean, definitely no debris. plus, i used one of those carb cleaning fuel additives. i know what's it like running with the dirty or poorly set carbs and i think they're not the problem here. (eg, one cylinder didnt fire at all during the 20mins ride)
i charged the battery just before starting the engine and while i think it's not at its best i think that shouldn't be the problem once the engine is running.
i held the two most problematic leads against the engine (with the engine running) and i could see no spark.
i think the leads are definitelly faulty but i don't know how to test this for sure. also, the leads can't be separated from the coils (they apear sealed) so i can't try switching them with one another.

jonbuoy

21st June 2007, 20:35

Bikes looking great BTW - If your sure its the leads you might be able to graft a new set onto the coils like this:

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=137

psyguy

21st June 2007, 20:49

Any luck with the oil yet?
hi alive
i was hopeing to go for a ride with you as soon as my bike's done, but it'll have to wait i guess...
cheers

Eurodave

21st June 2007, 21:17

held the two most problematic leads against the engine (with the engine running) and i could see no spark.
i think the leads are definitelly faulty but i don't know how to test this for sure. also, the leads can't be separated from the coils (they apear sealed) so i can't try switching them with one another.

On my GS750 I had similar lack of spark problems, so I replaced all the spark plug caps with new NGK long right-angled ones,gave the battery a good overnite charge, & hey presto, all good:sunny:

surfer

22nd June 2007, 11:06

On my GS750 I had similar lack of spark problems, so I replaced all the spark plug caps with new NGK long right-angled ones,gave the battery a good overnite charge, & hey presto, all good:sunny:

I agree with Eurodave here. This is the cheap easy way to go. You need to have a fully charged battery as it will only add to the misery of fault finding an electrical problem if it is on the low side. Get a multimeter and check that the battery is fully charged up. Then check to make sure you are getting about 13 to 14 volts with the bike running, if it will go.The fact that it ran ok when you first kicked it over is promising.

Then check the wiring running up to the faulty coils from the battery in case of a loose connection or break in a wire.

If this doesn't sort it out it could be the coils and or condensors, and points. Check the points first. Then if not running properly replace the condensors, then replace the coils. (I am assuming points system due to the year of your bike). If you have electronic ignition, you only need to replace the coils as you won't have condensors or points.

Hey are you living in Massey now?

Good luck.

Alive

27th June 2007, 18:39

hi alive
i was hopeing to go for a ride with you as soon as my bike's done, but it'll have to wait i guess...
cheers

Have you sorted the electrical prob yet?

Have you checked the coils are connected properly?

What 2 cylinders are giving you the problem?

Could be that you need to replace a coil

pete376403

27th June 2007, 20:39

Ivor, that looks really purty. If I send my GS1100 up could you clean it up for me, just like yours?:yes:

I've got a couple of coils you can try - as far as I know they are good, after all the bike they came from was running pretty well right up to the moment it hit the back of a car. I'll post them up tomorrow

One thought - does your bike use points ignition? If so maybe there is a fault there - point gap, bad condensors.

Also submit your photos and story to the GS resources - they love stories about bike ressurrections.

Henk

1st July 2007, 17:47

Another easy thing to check is the plugs. I had them fail in short order from new on my GS1000 and it only takes one plug to screw up two cylinders

psyguy

3rd July 2007, 00:03

hi guys

thanks for your keen interest and support!

i've been on the low side a bit - i moved houses and the new house needs a lot of attention and i've been busy with that, so i had looked forward to taking time away from it and riding my "new" bike and now this electrical problem really dampened my spirits...

although i think i might have contributed to the problem if not caused it when i used the car battery to start the engine (?)

anyhow, ALIVE's offered to come over and give me a hand figuring out the problem so everything should be clear soon :sunny:

Bikes looking great BTW - If your sure its the leads you might be able to graft a new set onto the coils like this:

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=137

very interesting site! i wondered about the sealed coils/leads.
i found this product:
http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1890
though it wouldn't help if the leads are busted inside the coils...

On my GS750 I had similar lack of spark problems, so I replaced all the spark plug caps with new NGK long right-angled ones,gave the battery a good overnite charge, & hey presto, all good:sunny:

will definitely do this

I am assuming points system due to the year of your bike. If you have electronic ignition, you only need to replace the coils as you won't have condensors or points.

electronic ignition :yes:

Hey are you living in Massey now?

yup, and the house needs more attention than the bike ever needed... i've been flat out for 6 weeks now doing it up

Ivor, that looks really purty. If I send my GS1100 up could you clean it up for me, just like yours?:yes:

no worries! it'll take me only an hour or two!

Also submit your photos and story to the GS resources - they love stories about bike ressurrections.

will do

Another easy thing to check is the plugs. I had them fail in short order from new on my GS1000 and it only takes one plug to screw up two cylinders

very interesting. i'm wondering though how does one faulty plug screw up two cylinders?!

CHEERS EVERYONE :Punk:

psyguy

6th July 2007, 17:58

I've got a couple of coils you can try - as far as I know they are good, after all the bike they came from was running pretty well right up to the moment it hit the back of a car. I'll post them up tomorrow.
hi pete, got the coils, you're a star! :sunny:
i'll let you know how i go, just have to wait for the damn rain to ease off :angry:

terbang

6th July 2007, 18:36

Hmm, looks very nice. Coils are difficult to diagnose and there is no real test for them. You can test your timing sensor and ignitor box as per clymer or Suzuki manuals but the coils are a problem thet is only really solved by transposing them or fitting another set. I have found in the past with GS coils that they are fine when they are cold and only start playing up when the bike heats up.

Macktheknife

6th July 2007, 18:56

Ivor, think you will find the plugs or coils to be the problem mate, (as others have said) swap them out and you should be right. I would also use new fuel, but I am a fussy bugger.

psyguy

27th August 2007, 21:53

hello again (it's been a while since my last post here)

you might remember my bike stopped working on most cylinders just after the rebuild :angry:
as per your suggestions i swapped the old coils with a set of (still old) but working coils - special thanks to "pete376403" for the donation :yes:
she fired up first try no probs and works on all cylinders

music to my ears :sunny:

cheers everyone

psyguy

17th October 2011, 15:36

.

well, a lot has happened in the meantime... from the humble beginings in this thread when the brief was to "do up a few things" Bruno has subsequently received a ground up restoration... largely thanks to the folks here that encouraged a complete novice like me to keep learning about bike resto's - thank you!

i have then popped over to the GSR Forum (http://www.thegsresources.com) and received more inspiration and heaps more learning, specifically about GS motorcycles

without further a do... let the pics speak :shifty:

psyguy

17th October 2011, 15:54

.....................................

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:01

...........................................

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:04

..... :sick: ......

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:19

...... :Punk: .......

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:44

............................

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:54

... now with K&N pods :niceone:

psyguy

17th October 2011, 16:59

... latest project...

psyguy

17th October 2011, 17:07

to be continued... (yes, I cought the resto bug and can't shake it off... :mellow: )

jellywrestler

17th October 2011, 17:29

psyguy

17th October 2011, 18:29

in the first instance i couldnt get the oversized piston kit so went with honing and new rings only - the compression afterwards was around 100-110psi and bores were out of factory specs, by 0.01mm (from memory)

while the bike ran ok, the new pistons / overbore made a noticeable power and cold start difference and is also now ok for another 100k kms :yes:

pete376403

17th October 2011, 18:53

It's great to read of a job that gets finished. Looks really great. I shoudl go out and do something similar with the 1100. A sidecar woudl be good, too.

(You still got my valve shim changing tools? I don't need them back right now, but do like to keep track of things, y'know?)

psyguy

18th October 2011, 06:19

hey pete...

yeah my collection of shims and shim tools has grown, lol, so if you'd like to pm me your address i'd be happy to return your borrowed-for-five-years (ahem) :facepalm: tools :soon:

and let me know if you might need any shims, would be happy to send them your way if i have the right sizes

actungbaby

22nd October 2011, 20:04

Yes thats what i used to get my clutch basket of my vt 250 motor that and rear axle of xr 200 throught the end hold the cresent to
get enough ommphhh oh the shame .... yes not ideal using them but sometimes you have to make do when your own budget.

it's a funny story. i bought a 32 pce spanner set and got two spanners size 15 but no size 14! :angry: ... so when it came to a situation with a nut and a bolt size 14 i had to got for the adjustable spanner, so yeah they can be useful