How to remove a helmet from an injured rider

[Riff Raff]

A while ago Speedie and I talked about doing a sequence of pictures or a video showing how to safely remove a helmet from an injured rider. We never got round to it.

Fortunately Australian Motorcycle News magazine put together the very thing in the 7 - 20 March 2007 edition. I have scanned it for you all to have a look at, but would recommend that you go out and buy this magazine so you have a good quality copy. Make sure you keep a copy of it with the first aid kit you all carry with you on your bike!!!!:innocent:

[crashe]

Cheers Ms Riff Raff...... :yes:

[KLOWN]

good info to know, I hope i never have to use it.

[Blondini]

I suggest leaving it to the experts...how many of you can tell a spinal injury by just looking?Just my opinion

[jonbuoy]

If their airway is blocked and you can't unblock it with the helmet on they will die.

[Oakie]

I suggest leaving it to the experts...how many of you can tell a spinal injury by just looking?Just my opinion
We had quite a good discussion about this at the First Aid course I went too last week. Main points were:
> Don't remove the helmet unless you have to.
> If it has to come off then it's best to get the rider to take it off if they are able.
> If the person has stopped breathing or is vomiting then having a viable airway is more important than a possible neck injury (you can live with a neck injury but you can't without an airway)
> An existing neck injury is just that ... existing. Possibly the damage you are worried about causing has already been done.

[Crasherfromwayback]

If their airway is blocked and you can't unblock it with the helmet on they will die.


We had quite a good discussion about this at the First Aid course I went too last week. Main points were:
> Don't remove the helmet unless you have to.
> If it has to come off then it's best to get the rider to take it off if they are able.
> If the person has stopped breathing or is vomiting then having a viable airway is more important than a possible neck injury (you can live with a neck injury but you can't without an airway)
> An existing neck injury is just that ... existing. Possibly the damage you are worried about causing has already been done.

Spot on......

[Blondini]

We had quite a good discussion about this at the First Aid course I went too last week. Main points were:
> Don't remove the helmet unless you have to.
> If it has to come off then it's best to get the rider to take it off if they are able.
> If the person has stopped breathing or is vomiting then having a viable airway is more important than a possible neck injury (you can live with a neck injury but you can't without an airway)
> An existing neck injury is just that ... existing. Possibly the damage you are worried about causing has already been done.

Good call.:yes:

[El Dopa]

Thanks Riff Raff.

If the rider is wearing a flip front lid, presumably it's best to leave the lid in place on their head and just flip the front up to clear the airway, start recuss, etc?

This is assuming everything necessary can be done leaving the helmet in place but just flipping up the front.

[cuppa]

I rasied this point at St Johns first aiders course.The reply from the experts is that you leave it up to the people in the know,the medics.:yes:

[Oakie]

I rasied this point at St Johns first aiders course.The reply from the experts is that you leave it up to the people in the know,the medics.:yes:
You can understand them saying that and it's a fair call when life is not at threat. However, with brain damage occuring after 4 minutes of no breathing, if it was Mrs Oakie lying on the road with her lid on and not breathing I have no doubt about what I'd do ... and it wouldn't be sitting quietly waiting for the ambos to arrive.
I guess I'm just lucky I went to a Red Cross course instead of St John's. The Red Cross guys had no problem with us doing it with the proviso that it was only when essential to maintain an airway.

[pritch]

The reply from the experts is that you leave it up to the people in the know,the medics.

Which, of course, is specifically mentioned in the attachment to the original post in this thread...:whistle:

[xwhatsit]

I can imagine a situation where somebody (who has read this, or knows otherwise how to take a helmet off safely) tries to remove a helmet, but the rider gets the shits because he knows you should never take a helmet off an injured person. Would have to be careful to explain first you know what's what.

[White trash]

Simply put.

If a rider is down, unconcious, and not breathing. The helmet comes off.
If they're unconcious but breathing freely, leave it on. It's not rocket science.

If I'm ever left to die from axphixiation (sp) because someone thought it best to leave my helmet on after a crash, I'd like that person to explain to my kids why I'm dead.

[Sensei]

Had a good mate crash beside me at 200ks when he hit a goat that ran out in front of us from the side of the road , he bounced & flipped for way to long along the road before coming to a stop in a drain on the side of the road . Ran back to where he was & knew he was knocked out by the sounds he was making but made sure he was breathing correctly by undoing the chin strap but left the helmet on as the chances of neck damage was very high from see him flipping through the air beside my bike as his bike flew to pieces on the other side of me . Helicopter arrived in around 35min & Medic said I had done the best thing leaving his helmet on . Turned out he had smashed 3 vertebra in his back & compressed 4 in his neck . Have to say it is a Big call making your mind up if you should pull a helmet off someone that has crashed . Not something I hope to have to done again .

[Blondini]

You can understand them saying that and it's a fair call when life is not at threat. However, with brain damage occuring after 4 minutes of no breathing, if it was Mrs Oakie lying on the road with her lid on and not breathing I have no doubt about what I'd do ... and it wouldn't be sitting quietly waiting for the ambos to arrive.
I guess I'm just lucky I went to a Red Cross course instead of St John's. The Red Cross guys had no problem with us doing it with the proviso that it was only when essential to maintain an airway.

18 secs without oxygen CAN cause damage

[peasea]

I'd never really thought about roadside dramas until they happened. Now my other half always packs a 1st Aid kit and she's done the yards to know how to use it. She's a handy riding buddy, apart from anything else. Years ago I was in a situation, five bikes (out of 13, not a good number, I know) went down, including mine (two-up) and I was amazed at how panic set in so quickly. I was (without being big-headed) one of the few to keep a cool head, laying people out and throwing jackets on the injured. We were lucky to have only minor injuries (my front end was rooted though) but if I'd known then what I know now (thanks to an enlightened, trained lady) things would have gone more smoothly. Carry a kit; know how to use it; you could save a life. AND!!!!! Give blood every three months, we do. Where are the blood runs????

[Switch]

Cheers for that. Will always remember that :niceone:

[Ixion]

Give blood every three months, we do. Where are the blood runs????

Here (http://www.bronz.org.nz/calendar.html)



BRONZ (Auckland) Inc – 51st Blood Run
Tuesday 17 April 2007 6-8pm
Bi-Annual Blood Run
Blood Donor Centre
71 Great South Road, Epsom
Main attractions - chocolate biscuits and the great feeling that you have helped someone.
Any motorcyclist/scooterist/triker welcome to donate blood with us.
No Charge. Bookings not essential.
For further information email bronzauckland@hotmail.com or Ph Peggy 09 638 9227 or 021 523 976
BRONZ (Auckland) Inc – 52nd Blood Run
Tuesday 16 October 2007 6-8pm
Bi-Annual Blood Run
Blood Donor Centre
71 Great South Road, Epsom
Main attractions - chocolate biscuits and the great feeling that you have helped someone.
Any motorcyclist/scooterist/triker welcome to donate blood with us.
No Charge. Bookings not essential.
For further information email bronzauckland@hotmail.com or Ph Peggy 09 638 9227 or 021 523 976

[XP@]

Thanks Riff Raff.

If the rider is wearing a flip front lid, presumably it's best to leave the lid in place on their head and just flip the front up to clear the airway, start recuss, etc?

This is assuming everything necessary can be done leaving the helmet in place but just flipping up the front.

I attended a first aid course a couple of years ago. both days i came with bike gear on and in the final exercise I suited up and played the dummy.

My first aiders were told i was breathing and there were scuff marks on my helmet. After about 1 minute of them trying to pull my flip top off without flipping the top (it's impossible). I got up told them to pretend i was still there and keep working on me. I wandered over to the instructor and told him the class was trying to revive a corpse, oh, and have you got anything for a strained neck?

Stickers with I.C.E instructions would be a good thing on a lid

[Roj]

Interesting thread, to re-phrase what has been said before:

leave the victim where they are unless there is an immediate threat to life.

This applies to just about any accident.

I have been first on the scene for a few different accidents, the most important thing to do is get help on its way ASAP

[peasea]

Here (http://www.bronz.org.nz/calendar.html)

Thanks for that info. We donate up here on the Shore and once you're on their list they will call and remind you when you can donate again. It really is a commuinity service and only takes a few minutes. Hope you're all donors!

[Macktheknife]

Cheers Riff Raff, looks like a sensible way to approach it if it needs doing. It is one of the things that tends to scare the crap out of people, thinking about having to do it, the more information the better.

[Oakie]

Idea! Why don't we all get our lids out over the next couple of days and practice on someone just so we know what to expect should we ever have to do it for real?
I think I'll do that with Mrs Oakie tonight ... and once I've got her lid off, just for the sake of realism, I might conduct a secondary survey from top to toe just to check her out for other injuries. :blip:

[ajturbo]

18 secs without oxygen will cause damage
sooo that means that the free divers are all brain damaged?

[Oakie]

I practiced removing the crash helmet from Mrs Oakie last night with #1 daughter's help. Quite do-able as long as one person takes charge and the other person just does as they're told. Took about 40 seconds to remove.

[klingon]

Idea! Why don't we all get our lids out over the next couple of days and practice on someone just so we know what to expect should we ever have to do it for real?
I think I'll do that with Mrs Oakie tonight ... and once I've got her lid off, just for the sake of realism, I might conduct a secondary survey from top to toe just to check her out for other injuries. :blip:

Excellent idea. I'm going to do just that tonight (not to Mrs Oakie of course) :o

Another idea: Next time you're in a bike shop, take a look at the various helmets and the mechanisms they use to either flip the top or just to flip the visor up. Some of them have a little toggle thing that has to be unlocked before you can open the visor. Even if you're not going to remove the helmet, you need to know how to flip the visor up just to communicate easily with the person.

[cbr guy]

nice one.a sticker with information would be great. they need this in the road code!

[Riff Raff]

The chances of a rider having a c-spine injury in a motorcycle accident are relatively low in comparison to having an airway problem (usually caused by helmet strap). So I will reiterate the fact that airway comes before anything else. Remember the ABCs of first aid (Airway, Breathing, Circulation).

Good on all of you who have started practising helmet removal. You should all be trying it, and go over it again every few months so you can do it in an emergency.

[James Deuce]

If hadn't woken up and taken off my helmet myself I'd be paralysed from the neck down. The well meaning bystanders were trying to take my helmet off without undoing the strap. I had two fractures in my C-spine, that only just held in there.

Please, please be bloody careful.

The following statement will upset some people: I'd rather be dead than a Christopher Reeves.

There's a good diagram on how to take a helmet off in the latest AMCN.

[KLOWN]

18 secs without oxygen will cause damage

I can hold my breath for thirty seconds and do it regulary. I guess this explains a few things. lol

[Fat Tony]

18 secs without oxygen will cause damage

I did a British Red Cross First Aid course last week and they've totally changed the CPR technique since I last did the course a year ago. Research has shown that the chest compressions are the important part of the CPR procedure, not the breaths in to the (not breathing) casualty.

They now recommend 30 chest compressions (at a rate of 100 per minute) followed by 2 short breaths in to the casualty, but if getting the breaths in to the casualty is problematic, forget the breaths and focus on the compressions non-stop, until the emergency help arrives and tells you that they'll take over.

The reason for the change is that they now believe that the oxygen circulating round the body is good for in the region of 4-5 minutes.

Of course, the chest compressions could well make any spinal injuries worse, but their take on it is not to make a judgement call on whether you would want to survive the same injuries or not, your role is that of a life saver so you have to do all you can.

[Rhino]

I did a British Red Cross First Aid course last week and they've totally changed the CPR technique since I last did the course a year ago. Research has shown that the chest compressions are the important part of the CPR procedure, not the breaths in to the (not breathing) casualty.

They now recommend 30 chest compressions (at a rate of 100 per minute) followed by 2 short breaths in to the casualty, but if getting the breaths in to the casualty is problematic, forget the breaths and focus on the compressions non-stop, until the emergency help arrives and tells you that they'll take over.

The reason for the change is that they now believe that the oxygen circulating round the body is good for in the region of 4-5 minutes.

Of course, the chest compressions could well make any spinal injuries worse, but their take on it is not to make a judgement call on whether you would want to survive the same injuries or not, your role is that of a life saver so you have to do all you can.
Well said Tony. I read an article here recently that mentioned the same changes to CPR as you described. I think that St. Johns will probably update their techniques to match quite soon. I have been attending work related rescue Breathing/CPR courses since 1969. It is amazing to see the changes in procedures over the years.

I was always told at First Aid courses to leave the helmet on, unless the person was unconscious and having breathing difficulties. If that is the case, then it comes off. Anyone who wants to argue will get the following choices:

That is your partner/family member in difficulties, I can do either of two things;

1. Leave them as they are, gasping for breath (imagine being 50km+ from an ambulance depot)

2. Carefully remove their helmet, despite the slight additional risk of creating spinal damage, and carry out Rescue Breathing if required. Also by removing the helmet, as the head tilts back a little further, you will open the airway up more.

I'm sure that most people would prefer option 2.

[Hanne]

Thanks for this post, my mum had just come back from a first aid course and didn't think to ask about it, so we were wondering what the best thing to do with helmets was.
Hopefully we never have to use it, but I will show her this post and have a go at helmet removal tonight.
Keep safe!

[Hanne]

That is your partner/family member in difficulties, I can do either of two things;

1. Leave them as they are, gasping for breath (imagine being 50km+ from an ambulance depot)

2. Carefully remove their helmet, despite the slight additional risk of creating spinal damage, and carry out Rescue Breathing if required. Also by removing the helmet, as the head tilts back a little further, you will open the airway up more.

I'm sure that most people would prefer option 2.

no. 2 for sure!

[swbarnett]

One of those techniques that you hope will never be used!

Found a good video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JWiw0HFpDo

[mbazza]

Great helmet info, always wondered about how to do it! Will now need to practice! As a diabetic I'm not accepted as a blood donor as I stick things into myself! Feel a bit guilty as a rider as I could need blood one day (heaven forbid). So will someone who's not giving blood at the moment nip down and leave 600ml for the cause? Cheers

[Ocean1]

Once in a while someone comes up with a truly exceptional idea.

This is one of them:

http://www.hatsoffusa.com/helmet_kit.htm

At the price it's a no brainer, anyone know if they're available in NZ?

[RiderInBlack]

Not sure if I like that. Ya don't know what the damage is like on top the head where the inflater is putting pressure on to "assist" the removal of the helmet. Ya still need to have someone that knows what they are doing to remove the helmet. Still a good idea, but would like to hear what the Medics on here think about it.

[Conquiztador]

Top info here. A few comments:
- As already mentioned, remember the ABC!
- CPR is done to pump the blood around to provide oxygen to the brain (and vital organs) when the heart has stopped . The Hollywood thingy where someone starts spluttering as a result of CPR is just that, a Hollywood thingy. So if U start doing CPR, keep going until help arrives or U run out of steam.
- Your first aid certificate is only valid for 2 years then U need to do a refresher course. One reason is that things change (as mentioned here).

[Bob]

We had quite a good discussion about this at the First Aid course I went too last week. Main points were:
> Don't remove the helmet unless you have to.
> If it has to come off then it's best to get the rider to take it off if they are able.
> If the person has stopped breathing or is vomiting then having a viable airway is more important than a possible neck injury (you can live with a neck injury but you can't without an airway)
> An existing neck injury is just that ... existing. Possibly the damage you are worried about causing has already been done.

Absolutely spot on!

I'd seriously recommend that if you can go on some kind of "First aid for motorcyclists" course, then you do. I went on a course over here, run by St John Ambulance - and they taught us how to remove a helmet (as well as putting people in the recovery position and how to administer CPR).

And removing a helmet was truly bloody scary.

We all took turns at being 'the victim', being the person supporting the head and the one removing the helmet. And boy does it teach you how difficult it is to do. When I was 'the victim', admittedly I think the helmet I was wearing was a size too small, but even with the other two being as careful as possible, my head was still getting tugged about.

Despite it being non-life threatening and our just practicing, we were all sweating at the end.

Big thing to bear in mind. If they're awake and they're making a noise, then they're well enough to survive. It is the ones that aren't moving or making a sound you worry about first.

Well, after ensuring your own safety of course. No good charging in like Arnie, only to get yourself in trouble and add to the situation.

[car]

I got up told them to pretend i was still there and keep working on me. I wandered over to the instructor and told him the class was trying to revive a corpse, oh, and have you got anything for a strained neck?

Mmm, depressing. I've always found the variation in First Aid training to be a bit worrying. A lot of people seem to come away with their little certificate thinking that they're ready for E.R.

In a more amusing probably less harmful way, twice I've been the the "accidentee" and helpful passers-by have tried to to stop me from taking my own helmet off.

"Look, mate, I'm standing up... I just pushed my bike to the side of the road!"


Stickers with I.C.E instructions would be a good thing on a lid

My first thought was "Yes! What a great idea!"

And then I remembered how many people I've seen walk face first into a door that says "PULL".

I'm not sure anyone would read a sticker on the side of a helmet if they were kneeling on the ground next to a potentially dying biker, feverishly wondering what to do, with that received wisdom ("NEVER take the helmet off, their brains might fall out!") at the front of their minds.

[Roj]

Stickers with I.C.E instructions would be a good thing on a lid

The I.C.E idea has been around for a little while, a very good thing from what I can see.

If someone has had an accident there may be some info that helps the medics like alergies to medicines etc that the victim may not be in a position to give.

My lady was in a very serious accident last year, she was able to give my cell phone number to the people on the scene as she was concious but this is not always the case.:scooter:

[Ocean1]

That info's on my phone (next of kin, blood type etc) but I don't know if the medic's would look for it there.

Wonder if a "SEE PHONE" sticker on the visor would be a good idea.

[car]

That info's on my phone (next of kin, blood type etc) but I don't know if the medic's would look for it there.[\QUOTE]

I'm showing myself for the ignoramus that I am; I assumed that by I.C.E. instructions we were talking about a summary of when to take off the helmet.

This re-neducated me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_case_of_emergency

Sounds sensible. I'll stick those details in my phone right now...

[QUOTE]Wonder if a "SEE PHONE" sticker on the visor would be a good idea.

Heh.

I once thought about getting dog tags, but seeing as I've never served in any service other than the cub scouts, it seemed a bit wannabe, coulda been in the SAS me, etc.

Maybe we should just get tattoos explaining which of the various previous injuries we're carrying are still relevant.

:)

[Ocean1]

I'm showing myself for the ignoramus that I am;


You're an amateur mate, a real professional wouldn’t have bothered looking.


Maybe we should just get tattoos explaining which of the various previous injuries we're carrying are still relevant.:)

I’ve heard a very senior local medical specialist has “DNR” tattooed on his chest (Do Not Resuscitate). He’s somewhat adverse to the prospects of vegiehood.

[007XX]

I’ve heard a very senior local medical specialist has “DNR” tattooed on his chest (Do Not Resuscitate). He’s somewhat adverse to the prospects of vegiehood.[/QUOTE]


When 17 , I once worked as a lifeguard at a local swimming pool. One of the kids there (about 15) faked drowning to be able to have me ressuscitate him and grop my lady lumps.:angry:

The little blighter got an inadvertant kick in the gonads for his trouble:devil2: :angry2:

Apart for that, yes the St Johns' courses are awesome. But you do need to refresh your knowledge every couple of years or so. I believe you can get them to contact you when you're due for an update.

[Ocean1]

When 17 , I once worked as a lifeguard at a local swimming pool. One of the kids there (about 15) faked drowning to be able to have me ressuscitate him and grop my lady lumps.:angry:

The little blighter got an inadvertant kick in the gonads for his trouble:devil2: :angry2:

And it only took you 15 minutes to react to this assault on your honour huh? :dodge:

[007XX]

And it only took you 15 minutes to react to this assault on your honour huh? :dodge:

How did you know? Don't tell me that was you???:shit:
Your kissing technique could do with some improvement:dodge: :bleh: :laugh:

[Ocean1]

How did you know? Don't tell me that was you???:shit:
Your kissing technique could do with some improvement:dodge: :bleh: :laugh:

Madam when I was 15 swimming pools hadn't been invented, and although I retain vivid memories of 17 year old girls of the era none of them ever fell for that particular tactic whenever I employed it.

Furthermore, at that age I wouldn't have lasted the proposed 15 minutes of such intimate proximity to a 17 year old girl in order to incur your vicious and entirely disproportionate response.

[007XX]

Madam when I was 15 swimming pools hadn't been invented, and although I retain vivid memories of 17 year old girls of the era none of them ever fell for that particular tactic whenever I employed it.

Furthermore, at that age I wouldn't have lasted the proposed 15 minutes of such intimate proximity to a 17 year old girl in order to incur your vicious and entirely disproportionate response.

:slap: silly me, I forgot there was a century between us!:rofl:

yes, I know...I'm a cheecky little shit! Wouldn't be the first time I hear that....

[Ocean1]

:slap: silly me, I forgot there was a century between us!:rofl:

I'm less concerned with the temporal seperation than the geographic one.

Specifically I'd feel a bloody sight more comfortable outa kicking range...

[007XX]

I'm less concerned with the temporal seperation than the geographic one.

Specifically I'd feel a bloody sight more comfortable outa kicking range...

Oh comon...I wouldn't hurt you...much!:devil2:

Although I read a book on chinese methods of torture that may come in handy sometime..

amazing how an ecclectic taste in literature can broaden the mind, don't you think?:innocent: :laugh:

[RiderInBlack]

When 17 , I once worked as a lifeguard at a local swimming pool. One of the kids there (about 15) faked drowning to be able to have me ressuscitate him and grop my lady lumps.:angry:

The little blighter got an inadvertant kick in the gonads for his trouble:devil2: :angry2:
I'm sure that was an appropriate "first-aid treatment" for that particular "ailment", LOL.
As an ex-RN and the First-aid Officer on one Poker Run, I did advise some bikers that if I found them on the ground I was going ta kick them in the balls. If they moved they might be ok, but if they didn't I'd call the ambo. I also told them not to hold their breath, as I didn't want at give them mouth-to-mouth as much as they didn't want me to give it to them (pays to be male and ugly sometimes, lol). Worked a treat. No falls that ride and there was over 500 bikes.

[Pancakes]

sooo that means that the free divers are all brain damaged?

They carry a bunch of air in their lungs for the trip

[eviltwin]

she's cute...is step 11-20 anything to do with mouth to mouth?

[devnull]

A couple of things to keep in mind if you have to remove a helmet:

1) it takes 2 people
2) once you apply axial traction (holding the head still), DON'T LET GO when the helmet is off.
3) DON'T tilt the head back to open the airway - you can use what's called a "modified jaw thrust". With fingers on the angle of the jaw, lift forward slightly. It achieves the same thing as tilting the head - it lifts the base of the tongue forward, clearing the airway.

4) Finally - practice this stuff BEFORE you need it. Doesn't take much time, and could save a life

[hobdar]

Um i would like to make one point ......before you worry about getting someones kit off.......etc etc......


Secure the scene and make sure your safe...........the injured is safe and then worry about keeping people alive....no good if you get wiped out by the cage coming around the corner everyone just crashed at..........

Oh and be authoritative and just tell people what to do...its amazing what people will do without thinking in this situation {while the one or two times i have experienced it}

Also dont worry too much about ones making noise..they are alive in pain but alive.....worry about the quiet ones not making any noise....:doctor:

[jcupit69]

Great info, +1 for you.

managed to take my own helmet off when i crashed (did some helmet surfing in my crash....not fun), hope i never have to use the info, but glad i know it :niceone:

[alanzs]

Simply put.

If a rider is down, unconcious, and not breathing. The helmet comes off.
If they're unconcious but breathing freely, leave it on. It's not rocket science.

If I'm ever left to die from axphixiation (sp) because someone thought it best to leave my helmet on after a crash, I'd like that person to explain to my kids why I'm dead.


I agree with you on this.
I have been at (too) many crash scenes over the years and unless the person was in an area where there was no possibility of rescue/medical help and/or choking to death, every medical person I have interacted with has said to leave the helmet on... Just MHO... :calm:

[CB ARGH]

Cheers mate ;)

[Oakie]

Well I got to take an injured rider's helmet off for real yesterday. I was fortunate that he was conscious and had actually asked me to take it off so I didn't have to make the call on an unconscious rider. I asked him if he would rather take it off himself but he told me to do it so .... I did. Undid the strap, spread the sides of the lid, tilted it back a little and what do you know ... slipped off just like peeling the shell off a hard boiled egg.
I was so pleased that my last First Aid course covered this and once again pleasantly surprised that in a situation like this the training kicks in and you just do what needs to be done without really having to think too hard about it.

[James Deuce]

<img src=http://images.elfwood.com/art/w/i/willy/rune_axe_2.jpg>

[klingon]

Well done Oakie! One of those things you hope you'll never have to do. The injured rider was lucky to have you there.

James, I didn't know you were a lesbian?

[James Deuce]

I'm trapped in a man's body!

[Clubbie]

My 50c worth (as a qualified paramedic)...
1. ONLY remove it if the airway is compromised.
2. To do more damage to the neck, you usually have to do something worse than the original insult. I say "usually" because a small number of patients have an unstable fracture where only the bone (not the spinal cord) is damaged - excessive movement of these patients will worsen it.
3. No airway - no patient! Paralysed is still alive. - it's not up to you to decide if paralysis is better than death...

[allycatz]

Clubbie you might be able to clarify.....have heard from friend (RN and First Aid trainer) that research is currently being done that the mouth to mouth part of CPR is to be eliminated and just chest compressions only to be done....would save removing the helmet at all if it was brought in

[swbarnett]

Clubbie you might be able to clarify.....have heard from friend (RN and First Aid trainer) that research is currently being done that the mouth to mouth part of CPR is to be eliminated and just chest compressions only to be done....would save removing the helmet at all if it was brought in

I've also heard that rumour. The theory goes (evidently) that the chest compressions are sufficient to move the diaphram and, hence, put air in the lungs.

[=cJ=]

Just to bring a fresh first aid course into it (a weeks or so ago...).

The same thing that's been said here was re-iterated.

Only take off the helmet in a suspected spinal case if you have to do CPR. Even then, it's a two person job. One guy secures the head, the other spreads the helmet with the straps and very gently "shuffles" the helmet off the injured rider. Once it's off, the head must NOT move, so some poor bugger's stuck holding the injured guys head.

Interestingly, even AFTER the injured guys head's been secured (with padding and towels and whatever else you can get your hands on) you still have to stay holding the head to stop the injured person moving it.

[Crisis management]

Only take off the helmet in a suspected spinal case if you have to do CPR.

Good points but....
Just to make it absolutely clear to the non paramedics.....the only reason you're removing his helmet is that if it stays on he will die, ie. he needs CPR to stay alive.


Just a point tho, having succesfully removed his helmet and with one person holding his head you still have to rotate the head back to clear the airway and then vigourously bounce up and down on his chest (breaking ribs as you go) to achieve CPR.

Makes a bit of a mockery of preserving the spinal column intact....

However, as a first aider you can only do your best and a breathing parallysed person is better than a dead one.

[klingon]

Good points but....
Just to make it absolutely clear to the non paramedics.....the only reason you're removing his helmet is that if it stays on he will die, ie. he needs CPR to stay alive.


Just a point tho, having succesfully removed his helmet and with one person holding his head you still have to rotate the head back to clear the airway and then vigourously bounce up and down on his chest (breaking ribs as you go) to achieve CPR.

Makes a bit of a mockery of preserving the spinal column intact....

However, as a first aider you can only do your best and a breathing parallysed person is better than a dead one.

Yep! (My brother is paralysed as a result of a car crash some years back so I feel qualified to give a "YEP!" to that statement.)

Also with regard to spinal cord injuries, there are degrees of damage. So if you do your best to reduce further injury while doing what you need to keep the person alive, it might be the difference between them being able to use their arms (or not) move their hands (or not) and breathe unaided (or not).

My Bro's spinal cord was not completely severed so he can move both shoulders, both elbows and his right wrist.

So just do what you have to do to keep the person alive while doing your best to minimise damage to the spine. Then leave the rest to the professionals.

[the mouse]

Excellent informative thread. My 2c

1/ it's been said ....Look after your own safety first
2/ I'd tend to lossen the strap and leave helmet on unless CPR needed
3/First Aid cert holders are informed enough in basics that may save a life, most importantly to acess a situation and get medical help quick, they are not doctors

If you come across me, just pull the ears (click on Mickey)

Fastest helmet iv'e seen come off, was in the movie "STONE".

[Beemer]

Our club is subsidising some motorcycle related first aid in a few months and I was the first to sign up. Here's hoping they will get people to demonstrate this as it's the one fear I have when riding. I'd hate to do more harm than good so actually being shown how to safely remove a helmet would be great. Of course hopefully it would be one of those cases where breathing wasn't compromised so I could leave it on until professional help arrived.

[1wheel riot]

good ider i mite do that

[gwigs]

image removed

This helmet removing device is only recommended on deceased riders..

[sarahtvet]

Our club is subsidising some motorcycle related first aid in a few months and I was the first to sign up. Here's hoping they will get people to demonstrate this as it's the one fear I have when riding. I'd hate to do more harm than good so actually being shown how to safely remove a helmet would be great. Of course hopefully it would be one of those cases where breathing wasn't compromised so I could leave it on until professional help arrived.

Really looking forward to the course. Have already done basic First aid with Red Cross and they do show you how to remove a helmet safely but tend to bring a huge helmet. If you attend any such courses I would take your helmet to :-
1) Get a feel for how it feels to have it taken off that way
2) For all first aiders to feel the true resistance you get when taking a properly fitted helmet off a casualty.

Have all the forms to apply to train as a paramedic outside work and with my background should be pretty quick to get through it :2thumbsup:

Another 2 things I would highly recommend
1) Spot Tracker - recommended by NZ search and rescue. $350 and easy to use. Look up find me spot on internet.

2) Red Cross single use resuscitation mask. Comes in a 15mm x 15mm soft material pouch on a keyring. You will be carrying it more for everybody else but the people I ride with know one is on my keyring if they need to use it for me.

Fear of disease, vomit and blood often puts people off cpr even when they know how to do it. $10 not much to spend in case you need to save a life hey

I believe in forward planning and hoping I never need to use it but as I have been at two offs in 2 years (and a few off horses too) I guess the odds are....

[ital916]

I have posted a video in bike chrash thread which shows a massive t-bone impact into a car.

The rider after impact lies face down in a pile.

This thread has been very informative for riders who are prone on their back but what should we do if we come accross a rider who is face down or on their side with a high possibilty of bleeding into their helmet.

Do we move them? Do we remove the helmet with them face down?

I apologise if this has been answered already but I would like to know..just in case.

[YellowDog]

I have heard some quite horrible stories from helmets being removed by concerned helpers after accidents.

While the head is in the helmet, whilst it may be uncomfortable, it is still supporting the potentially damaged head.

Best to wait for the paramedics to do this who are best equipped to deal with any resulting complications.

[mowgli]

Do we move them? Do we remove the helmet with them face down?

I apologise if this has been answered already but I would like to know..just in case.

Priorities on discovering a casualty
1. Danger - is it safe for you to approach.
2. Response - establish the casualty's level of responsiveness.
3. Send for help
4. Breathing - is the casualty breathing? If not, clear the airway, start CPR.
5. Bleeding - check for major bleeds and deal with each as you find them.
6. Burns - treat and protect any significant burns.
7. Bones - immobilize broken bones.

I expect that probably the only reason for needing to remove a helmet would be when the casualty is not breathing. If I couldn't detect any signs of breathing I'd try repositioning them to open the airway, supporting the head and neck as best I could. If they're still not breathing then they're dead so I'd get the helmet off as best I could and start CPR.

If they are breathing, then use the priorities to guide you. Unless there is masses of blood pissing out around their nape (major bleeding) then the helmet stays on. They're unlikely to be burnt inside the helmet so the helmet stays on. If they have a fractured skull then the helmet will protect better than any dressing so the helmet stays on.

While waiting for the paramedics monitor the casualty for shock. If they go green or complain of nausea then I'd consider removing the helmet. This would be a judgement call on whether I felt they were more at risk of neck/spine injury or of suffocating on their vomit.

Best advice is do a first aid course and then keep it current. Practice breeds confidence.

[Clubbie]

Clubbie you might be able to clarify.....have heard from friend (RN and First Aid trainer) that research is currently being done that the mouth to mouth part of CPR is to be eliminated and just chest compressions only to be done....would save removing the helmet at all if it was brought in

There are two points here - first yes the mouth to mouth part is not as important as the chest compressions. New ratio is 30:2 for those that don't know.:niceone:

The second thing is CPR following a motor vehicle crash is very rarely needed.

The reason for this is they are usually dead as a result of trauma not a heart problem such as a heart attack.
So their heart has usually stopped due to something else like blood loss, brain trauma, heart trauma etc and thus CPR is fruitless and unnecessary.

There are a very small number of crashes where a patient has a heart attack immediately prior to the crash. I doubt you'd be able to tell unless you were either witness to the crash and the rider's disposition pre-crash or had an ECG on hand to look at their cardiac rhythm.

If they are not breathing and you remove their helmet. Often, opening the airway is enough and they start breathing again on their own.

[RavenVulf]

Thank you very much for this information.

[bkker]

Priorities on discovering a casualty
1. Danger - is it safe for you to approach.
2. Response - establish the casualty's level of responsiveness.
3. Send for help
4. Breathing - is the casualty breathing? If not, clear the airway, start CPR.
5. Bleeding - check for major bleeds and deal with each as you find them.
6. Burns - treat and protect any significant burns.
7. Bones - immobilize broken bones.

Thanks. Was that from a Saint Johns or similar course or did you come up with it yourself?
Cheers for the clarification that the removal methods should only rarely be used, but it's good to know I guess.

[mowgli]

Thanks. Was that from a Saint Johns or similar course or did you come up with it yourself?
Myself? I should be so clever :laugh: No, these are the first aider priorities as taught to Air Force personnel and tested annually.

[scooute]

Thanks for the info I hope Im never in a postion where proffesionals are too far away and I have to use it!!!

[tig5]

We had quite a good discussion about this at the First Aid course I went too last week. Main points were:
> Don't remove the helmet unless you have to.
> If it has to come off then it's best to get the rider to take it off if they are able.
> If the person has stopped breathing or is vomiting then having a viable airway is more important than a possible neck injury (you can live with a neck injury but you can't without an airway)
> An existing neck injury is just that ... existing. Possibly the damage you are worried about causing has already been done.

If the rider is able to take their helmet off, they don't need to and should be prevented from doing so. Otherwise, as above. When in doubt, ask the person (me) on the end of the 111 line, we can also help you determine if someone is breathing effectively, as opposed to just breathing. Just because someone is snoring away doesn't mean they are getting the level of o2 their body requires. Just some thoughts.

Stay safe

[p.dath]

If the rider is able to take their helmet off, they don't need to and should be prevented from doing so.

Try lying out in the sun on some tar seal with a helmet on. Not very pleasant.

Might just be me, but if I attended an accident, and the rider was fit and well enough to remove their own helmet I wouldn't be trying to prevent them from doing so.

[Milts]

Nah just wait until these are more mainstream

http://www.gizmag.com/splinter-motorcycle-helmet-removal-by-paramedics/17218/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=03fdb18964-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

[steve_t]

Nah just wait until these are more mainstream

http://www.gizmag.com/splinter-motorcycle-helmet-removal-by-paramedics/17218/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=03fdb18964-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

Umm.... isn't this a similar concept to the Shoei X-12? Apart from leaving the neck brace looking "sub-assembly". I wonder when the dissertation was written as the article is very recent. The video below is over a year old

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WOh3LfjUtUw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WOh3LfjUtUw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Milts]

Hah, looks like you're right, nearly the same. Excellent system nevertheless.

[tnarg]

This system is already in use over in the states. A combo of the two systems would be the go.

http://www.ejectsafety.com/instructions.html

[trapster66]

Heya,
I am a volunteer st john ambulance officer, as well as a biker,
if you are confident with the helmet removal process then remove it,if not leave the helmet on as this will help keep head in neutral alignment, if airway is obstructed(snoring or wheezing noises are a telltale sign), try a tilting the head backwards slightly(as if the patient was trying to look up) the important thing is to support the head(hands where the ears would be) to prevent sideways movement,and there you will stay till the medics arrive.
as stated earlier if airway is obstructed (vomit or blood) then helmet must come off and roll them on their side trying to keep spine straight,
hope this helps

[CHOPPA]

It may have been covered but if the rider has a good helmet it will have safety release tabs. Pull the red tabs to remove the cheek pads then the helmet can come off easily while supporting the neck and all that stuff

http://www.shoei-helmets.com/Videos.aspx?v=18&tab=Tech_Tips

[Tarded]

This may have been covered but I cant be arsed reading 7 pages right now.

I remember a first aid course where they said 'inappropriate erections' may indicate spinal injuries.

Dunno about you but crashing doesnt bar me up at all. So if Im hard Im hurt.

Its an acceptable time to check youre mates gear too I reckon.

Girls - um sorry not sure what you do here in respect to weird reactions.,

Any medical people able to elaborate here?

[vitahex]

useful info. thanks for sharing.

[Kendoll]

Heya,
I am a volunteer st john ambulance officer, as well as a biker,
if you are confident with the helmet removal process then remove it,if not leave the helmet on as this will help keep head in neutral alignment, if airway is obstructed(snoring or wheezing noises are a telltale sign), try a tilting the head backwards slightly(as if the patient was trying to look up) the important thing is to support the head(hands where the ears would be) to prevent sideways movement,and there you will stay till the medics arrive.
as stated earlier if airway is obstructed (vomit or blood) then helmet must come off and roll them on their side trying to keep spine straight,
hope this helps

Hey, thanks for the helpful pointers :cool: My partner and I have a whole lot of helmets that we no longer need and are too old to sell or give to other riders. Would St John find it helpful to have these for helmet removal training? If so, where can we take them to? Would be great to be able to put them to good use.