War?

[Hans]

In case you don't know yet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6484279.stm

Whaddya think?

[crack]

In case you don't know yet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6484279.stm

Whaddya think?

I think a certain Captain of a vessel has screwed himself by not remaining close enough to his men to protect them.

They will hold them for awhile,alot of strong words, and Iran will strike a deal with the Brits.

[doc]

I think a certain Captain of a vessel has screwed himself by not remaining close enough to his men to protect them.

They will hold them for awhile,alot of strong words, and Iran will strike a deal with the Brits.Discrection may have been the better part of valour. This could end up being quite interesting.

[Disco Dan]

So they got a bit lost? geesh....:gob:

[terbang]

Thank god its the Brits. If it were yanks the whole nation would be riding over the horison towards Iran, waving their six shooters and bibles (modern revised version of course).

[Sniper]

Have to watch this. I believe there will be a peaceful outcome knowing the brits, as long as them and them alone deal with it.

[Steam]

Someone tell me again why the hell the English Navy is over there? Oh oil and "terrorism" oh right.
Helping the Americans prop up their economy.

How about the Iranians send a patrol vessel off the coast of London or New York, and start searching ships in exact proportionality? Imagine the outrage in the US and UK, it's a massive double standard enforced by countries with nuclear weapons against one with none.
Wait until the Iranians get a couple of nukes, nobody's going to mess with them then. The next Israeli war might get interesting too.

[Hans]

Someone tell me again why the hell the English Navy is over there? Oh oil and "terrorism" oh right.
Helping the Americans prop up their economy.

How about the Iranians send a patrol vessel off the coast of London or New York, and start searching ships in exact proportionality? Imagine the outrage in the US and UK, it's a massive double standard enforced by countries with nuclear weapons against one with none.
Wait until the Iranians get a couple of nukes, nobody's going to mess with them then. The next Israeli war might get interesting too.

No offense, Steam, but your grip on reality in this case is tentative at its very best. The poms aren't searching ships heading into Iran. They are searching ships of all nationalities heading into Iraq. And they are doing so under UN mandate. End of story.

[Steam]

No offense, Steam, but your grip on reality in this case is tentative at its very best.

Nah I don't know anything about it, I was just blathering on whatever came into my head. My apologies for my wild inaccuracies.

[terbang]

They are searching ships of all nationalities heading into Iraq. And they are doing so under UN mandate. End of story.


Hmm is that the same UN mandate that GWB used to go to war in Iraq over WMD?

[Hans]

Nah it ain't. Completely separate. Goes back to after 1st Gulf war.

[smoky]

Nah I don't know anything about it, I was just blathering on whatever came into my head. My apologies for my wild inaccuracies.

Isn't that what kiwibikers all about!!

[smoky]

well if it ends up at war some one's going to push 'the button' one day, and booom - it's all over, then we'll all be :buggerd:

So the only thing to do is get out and go for a long ride on my bike, every day, while I still can. (thats my excuse anyway)

It's over oil - so we can thank everyone who owns a RV.

[Steam]

Isn't that what kiwibikers all about!!

Too right! Blathering about things one knows nothing about is the foundation, the very cornerstone, of political activity. We must have more ignorant blather! George Dubya is making a good contribution all by himself but Blair needs to try harder.

[The Pastor]

War? Probably not, but it is possiable.

[pritch]

Someone tell me again why the hell the English Navy is over there?

English Navy? Interesting....

There were a number of navies doing that patrolling, including ours if I recall correctly.

[Ixion]

No, this won't lead to war. Just a bit of posturing.

[klingon]

Re-read the story and replace the words "captured" and "seized" with "arrested." Isn't that what we do when ships stray into our territorial waters?

[Quartermile]

well if it ends up at war some one's going to push 'the button' one day, and booom - it's all over, then we'll all be :buggerd:

So the only thing to do is get out and go for a long ride on my bike, every day, while I still can. (thats my excuse anyway)

It's over oil - so we can thank everyone who owns a RV.

Than this happens:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtOdh7dEbM

[Swoop]

Have to watch this. I believe there will be a peaceful outcome knowing the brits, as long as them and them alone deal with it.
I am wondering if "something", other than the tea, is brewing.
The Eisenhower carrier battle group has moved into the gulf, making four C.B.G.'s on station. Slightly unusual in one T.O's...

Israel is conducting a nationwide emergency response to an "attack" scenario
from a foriegn threat (how unusual).

[CM2005]

hahaha, thats class... WTF^^ mate!

[Dafe]

If the U.S. did anything, the Iranians would have an excuse to execute the Brits. The Brit's won't allow the U.S. to have any part of this as a result.

Besides, It was only two years ago that the Iranians last arrested British sailors for crossing into Iranian waters. They were all released last time.

This new Iranian leader sure seems like a wanker though.

[Quartermile]

Yea cos the Americans always listen intently to the British:rofl:

[Hans]

If the U.S. did anything, the Iranians would have an excuse to execute the Brits. The Brit's won't allow the U.S. to have any part of this as a result.

Besides, It was only two years ago that the Iranians last arrested British sailors for crossing into Iranian waters. They were all released last time.

This new Iranian leader sure seems like a wanker though.

And of course no-one would sacrifice "the 15 courageous servicemen" if they needed an good reason to jump Iran. That's tui ad material, that is.

[scracha]

English Navy? Interesting....


Thank gawd it was the "English Navy". I was worried some of my Celtic brethern may have been involved.

[Dave Lobster]

Yea cos the Americans always listen intently to the British:rofl:

If they had in the early 40s, they wouldn't have lost half as much shipping in the Atlantic.

[Guitana]

If the U.S. did anything, the Iranians would have an excuse to execute the Brits. The Brit's won't allow the U.S. to have any part of this as a result.

Besides, It was only two years ago that the Iranians last arrested British sailors for crossing into Iranian waters. They were all released last time.

This new Iranian leader sure seems like a wanker though.

Territorial Pissings!!! Anyway if the yanks got involved they'd probably kill most of the allies in another freindly Fire incident I'd be fucken nervous if I were the Brits!! Iran is just flexing it's territorial bicep you'd be a little nervous and protective of your borders too if you had a huge naval fleet in your backyard playing mindgames with you!!! As for the Iranian leader well I do admire the SOB at least he stands up for his beleifs and dose'nt let the US bully him!!!!

[avgas]

That movie is awesome

[Lias]

As for the Iranian leader well I do admire the SOB at least he stands up for his beleifs and dose'nt let the US bully him!!!!
Anyone who wants to nuke israel gets 2 thumbs up in my book lol

[Lorax]

GPS
GPS
GPS
GPS
GPS
GPS?

Hmmmmm? Surely they'd both have GPS? And therefore know their EXACT location? God damn. Annoyed.

[CM2005]

Anyone who wants to nuke israel gets 2 thumbs up in my book lol

hear hear!!! :rockon:

[smoky]

Anyone who wants to nuke israel gets 2 thumbs up in my book lol

:scratch:
Down with Israel !!!
The only country that has democracy in an otherwise dictatorship ruined area of the world, the only country with a social welfare system that helps the disabled, elderly and generally accepts woman as equal. That is made up of all sorts of ethnicities and inhabits less than 2% of the Middle East. The only country that has thru good management created an economy and infrastructure that can feed it’s self.
As a apposed to supporting nations bent on its destruction, who can’t organise themselves to even treat each other with fairness, that suppress the rites of woman and believe in an underclass, that are ruled by religious dictators and Neolithic thinking governments. (that by the way hate our guts) – I wonder why?
I understand their frustration of being the victims, or losers all the time, but I just can’t get my head around why it’s trendy to bash Israel now days, is it because America support them?

[Lias]

:scratch:
I understand their frustration of being the victims, or losers all the time, but I just can’t get my head around why it’s trendy to bash Israel now days, is it because America support them?
A nation built on stolen land, that still demands sympathy and reperations for a myth that supposedly happened 60 years ago. A nation run by thieves, cowards and liars, that only continues to exist because America gives it billions of dollars a year in aid. A nation thats commited more atrocities than were ever supposedly commited against its founders. Israel is a nation of pure evil.. Who _wouldnt_ want to see them burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion?

[smoky]

A nation built on stolen land, that still demands sympathy and reperations for a myth that supposedly happened 60 years ago. A nation run by thieves, cowards and liars, that only continues to exist because America gives it billions of dollars a year in aid. A nation thats commited more atrocities than were ever supposedly commited against its founders. Israel is a nation of pure evil.. Who _wouldnt_ want to see them burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion?

I guess we're going to be miles apart on this one then, sorry I can't agree - but then people have been arguing over it for while now.
I'm not much of a historian, I'm just going on what I've seen while travelling around.Every one has their own perception of what's going on.

I don't think I'd call any nation 'pure evil' or flippintly wish the cruel destruction of any people - "burning in the fire of nuclear oblivion" - seems a bit harsh. Wouldn't a flood be more gentle, self cleaning like a flush toilet as well.

[CM2005]

I guess we're going to be miles apart on this one then, sorry I can't agree - but then people have been arguing over it for while now.
I'm not much of a historian, I'm just going on what I've seen while travelling around.Every one has their own perception of what's going on.

I don't think I'd call any nation 'pure evil' or flippintly wish the cruel destruction of any people - "burning in the fire of nuclear oblivion" - seems a bit harsh. Wouldn't a flood be more gentle, self cleaning like a flush toilet as well.

Pure Evil:- Number palestinian civilians, using palestinian children as human shields, restricting entry through checkpoints to people in need of medical care, blahdy blah... the list goes on.

A flood of biblical proportions perhaps?... hahahaaaa!!:shutup: Self cleaning? line 'em up, burn 'em down.:done:

[smoky]

Pure Evil:- Number palestinian civilians, using palestinian children as human shields, restricting entry through checkpoints to people in need of medical care, blahdy blah... the list goes on.

Not sure which side your talking about - they both seem capable of perpertrating evil in the name of what ever cause they tote.


flood of biblical proportions perhaps?:

Kinda what I was hinting at

[YLWDUC]

Re-read the story and replace the words "captured" and "seized" with "arrested." Isn't that what we do when ships stray into our territorial waters?

Nope, we're not even allowed to talk sternly to vessels that enter our waters and steal our fish/deliver our drugs. The greens would have a field day if we acted the same way as the Pom-Iranians (isn't that a dog breed?) :dodge:

[doc]

the Pom-Iranians (isn't that a dog breed?) :dodge:Very clever:third:

[Manxman]

Thank gawd it was the "English Navy". I was worried some of my Celtic brethern may have been involved.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Lias]

but then people have been arguing over it for while now.


Only a few thousands years :-P

[Hans]

There's a thin line between being an antisocial hippy basher, which is not that bad and being a redneck bogan'd nazi. Have you ever been to the Middle East, Lias? How many Arabs do you know? Would you know a Jew if you saw one without a Yarmulka? Now I am not the biggest fan of the Jews there's ever been. But they have my respect for what their contributions to science, the arts etc... Name what the A-rabs have given the world in the last thousand years.

[Ixion]

Name what the A-rabs have given the world in the last thousand years.

Algebra
Alchemy
the Alhambra
Zero
The Rubiyat of Omar Khaiyam
The Kitabal-Rujari of al-Idrisi
the Taj Mahal
Fathipur Shakri
Religious tolerance
Morroco leather
Damascus steel
the Kitabi of Abu Umar bin Bahr al-Jahiz

A very incomplete list, and not perhaps quite 1000 year specific, but just a few that spring immediately to mind.

[terbang]

I'm not a huge fan of the Isralis myself, they have always been involved in any sort of scrap that the world has, or has has. However I used to fly for Palestinians and having felt the heat of Israeli hostility, I guess my view would be a little one sided. The irony is that the Arabs and the Jews are basicly the same race of people separated by religion. Though I think the round trip the diaspora took sort of europeanised them a bit.
The Jewish state and its supported imposition on the middle east will continue to be a scource of anguish for the Arab people for a long time to come. Though the arabs, like others, do fight amongst themselves they tend to unite when it comes to Israel and the US or anyone who supports them.

[Hans]

Algebra - Much older.
Alchemy - Only the root of the name itself.
the Alhambra - Granted
Zero - Much older.
The Rubiyat of Omar Khaiyam - Is a book written by an Indian.
The Kitabal-Rujari of al-Idrisi
the Taj Mahal - Is in India.
Fathipur Shakri - Is in India
Religious tolerance - Tui ad?
Morroco leather - Please elaborate.
Damascus steel - Granted
the Kitabi of Abu Umar bin Bahr al-Jahiz- Born in 776 AD
A very incomplete list, and not perhaps quite 1000 year specific, but just a few that spring immediately to mind.

Of course I was talking about Arabs under Islam. Hence last 1200-1000 years when Islam gained any serious clout. But as you can see your arguments don't hold water. With respect.

[doc]

The irony is that the Arabs and the Jews are basicly the same race of people separated by religion.
Very very very loosely as I understand it. Ahebs wife couldn't have children, so he had a child to her maid servant. Then the wife fell pregnant and expelled the maidsevant and her child to the desert. This is where the Muslims came from. Ahebs family became the Jews . This is pretty loose and names have been changed to protect the innocent.

[terbang]

Of course I was talking about Arabs under Islam. Hence last 1200-1000 years when Islam gained any serious clout. But as you can see your arguments don't hold water. With respect.

So what greatness have we, New Zealanders (a Dutch word I may add), done for the world in the last couple of centuries over the Arabs. I think his arguement does hold water. Inside our own religion we have had our share of atrocities comitted by fundamentalists (not the Monty Python version of the Spanish inquisituon either). Like christianity and Judaisim, Islam is also an honourable religion for its followers. The Muslim fundamentalists have certainly made themselves known in todays world but so have the Christian fundamentalists (GW Bush). Though people prefer not to see it that way, GWB is riding the christian crusade just as much as the Taliban and others rode the Muslim one. Different method of course but still a lot of death and suffering on both accounts.

[terbang]

Very very very loosely as I understand it. Ahebs wife couldn't have children, so he had a child to her maid servant. Then the wife fell pregnant and expelled the maidsevant and her child to the desert. This is where the Muslims came from. Ahebs family became the Jews . This is pretty loose and names have been changed to protect the innocent.

That explains the differences in religion. I was talking about race. Take a look at the noses for a start.

[Hans]

Sorry Terbang, but I just can't agree with what you've just said. Of course I am annoyed to fuck with religious and other fanaticisms. But I just can't see why you /and a lot of others/ put Bush on the same level as Stalin, Hitler et al. Please explain what makes him like them in your opinion.

[doc]

Islam is also an honourable religion for its followers. The Muslim fundamentalists have certainly made themselves known in todays world but so have the Christian fundamentalists (GW Bush). Though people prefer not to see it that way, GWB is riding the christian crusade just as much as the Taliban and others rode the Muslim one. Different method of course but still a lot of death and suffering on both accounts.
Ferk me . I can't agree about Iraq. You can't force democracy on people it's a majority decision. But how can you compare our modern christian beliefs against a Muslim extremist opinion that is still in the Dark ages with it's savagery and lack of education. In NZ democracy has been watered down by MMP, and look at the ridiculious political situation we have ended up with. Minorities are starting to run the system and waste too much of the governments time. Saddam had Iraq up and running. They at least had electricity and an infrastructure. We may not have agreed with it, but we are not Muslims.

[Hans]

Ferk me . But how can you compare our modern christian beliefs against a Muslim extremist opinion that is still in the Dark ages with it's savagery and lack of education.

Could you please leave me out of "our modern Christian beliefs" You've just shown the attitude that I really dislike. You seem to assume that "Christian" somehow means "our". I have nothing to do with "Christian".

In fact, I don't even know the fellah. :dodge:

[doc]

That explains the differences in religion. I was talking about race. Take a look at the noses for a start.
Cmon get out of your glass palace. You don't do the Coro Loop so you can stop to hug trees. Splitting hairs between races or religion is getting a bit PC. We living in a Christian democracy enjoying the benefits, of having a different opinion to the ruling majority and being able to voice it. Try doing that in Iraq..... more than once.

[doc]

Could you please leave me out of "our modern Christian beliefs" You've just shown the attitude that I really dislike. You seem to assume that "Christian" somehow means "our". I have nothing to do with "Christian".

In fact, I don't even know the fellah. :dodge:
Well go back to living where your beliefs lie. And hold these opinions.

[Hans]

We living in a Christian democracy enjoying the benefits, of having a different opinion to the ruling majority and being able to voice it.


Well go back to living where your beliefs lie. And hold these opinions.

Aren't you contradicting yourself more than a bit right there?

Oh, and I thought that one of the traits of a modern democracy is the separation of religion /or church/ and state?

[terbang]

Sorry Terbang, but I just can't agree with what you've just said.

For a start you'll have to get your nose out of CNN and BBC then perhaps try something like the rise and fall of the third reich (Shirer) for a few paralels in history. You could go and live in the middle east for a while too perhaps and listen to their side of the story.
Or we could just simply agree to disagree.

[Hans]

I'll quite happily agree to disagree.
I have a bit of personal experience too. Been to Israel, been to a few Arab countries and spent a bit of time in Kosovo. It's not all BBC and CNN.
Nice blog BTW.

[CM2005]

Name what the A-rabs have given the world in the last thousand years.

Choice tea towels mate!:rockon:

[terbang]

Cmon get out of your glass palace. We living in a Christian democracy enjoying the benefits, of having a different opinion to the ruling majority and being able to voice it. Try doing that in Iraq..... more than once.

Glass palace, pffft.. I lived and worked in the middle east mate, kept my eyes open too and learnt a thing or two about our world that didn't make me all that comfortable being a so called democratic. So is Iraq now beter off..? Remember these people are different, they are desert people, Arab people, not like you and I and yet you sit there in your little comfy zone behind your keyboard judging the hell out of them, based on what? Television news, a gut feeling or hearsay..? How about looking at some of the positives that the Arab world has, do you know any? Have you looked..?

[CM2005]

if i get into the airforce im hoping to get posted to afghanistan, so i can learn about the language and culture.

[CM2005]

That explains the differences in religion. I was talking about race. Take a look at the noses for a start.

haha, i always give my tight fisted mate shit bout his nose being somehow related to his frugal ways :shutup:

[Quartermile]

Israel, Kicks Ass, they get attacked by every country around them and fuck them up, so what their whole economy revolves around war, so does half of the US's.

Israelies are kick ass, they own everybody end of story!

[doc]

Aren't you contradicting yourself more than a bit right there?

Oh, and I thought that one of the traits of a modern democracy is the separation of religion /or church/ and state?

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

[Sniper]

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

Well said Doc

[Toaster]

NZ Navy - pic of future ships.... less the gun of course because that might be seen as 'aggressive'.....

[doc]

Glass palace, pffft.. I lived and worked in the middle east mate, kept my eyes open too and learnt a thing or two about our world that didn't make me all that comfortable being a so called democratic. So is Iraq now beter off..? Remember these people are different, they are desert people, Arab people, not like you and I and yet you sit there in your little comfy zone behind your keyboard judging the hell out of them, based on what? Television news, a gut feeling or hearsay..? How about looking at some of the positives that the Arab world has, do you know any? Have you looked..?
Calm down. Te Toro may be dry this time of the year but it aint desert.I bet that when you were living in the middle east you were living in a pretty secure environment not living like a local. Iraq will never be any different, until Saddam comes out from hiding (remember he had a double ) Iraq can only be prosper under a dictatorship seemed pretty good to most of them before GW Bush came along and stirred them up they had ( The US intention to bring democracy to them even if they have to kill every last one of them). The Iraq situation wont be sorted until they're making parts for Harleys then they will be on their feet economically.

[SPman]

Nope, we're not even allowed to talk sternly to vessels that enter our waters and steal our fish/deliver our drugs. The greens would have a field day if we acted the same way as the Pom-Iranians (isn't that a dog breed?) :dodge:
Oh yes - we can talk VERY sternly to vessels that enter our water and steal our fish - at least, the Navy guys on the scene do!
Pollies - well, thats another matter

[terbang]

I bet that when you were living in the middle east you were living in a pretty secure environment not living like a local.

You're right it was pretty secure. But whats yer point. I was based in Amman, Jordan flying for Palestinians, the route structure including Gaza certainly had it's security risks. I was one of two 'westerners', and the only western pilot amongst Arabs. It was a fairly severe immersion I would say. Being a Kiwi, I was well accepted (providing I established that I was one). I heard their stories, saw the way the conducted their lives and accepted that they were different. I was treated well and with the same respect in return, though I was there in a position of leadership. Friendships flourished out of mutual respect and a social life was had. All very different to what we have here but, but similar because they are human. I have no intention of leading my life like them, hence why I am back here for now, but I also feel no compulsion to try and change their ways or inflict my values upon them. That is why I was successful amongst them. It may come as a complete surprise to some (sadly so) that Palestinians wish to stay Palestinians just like we Kiwi's wish to stay Kiwi's. How could I after such an experience label them in the way that I so often see done so easily on forums such as this.


Iraq will never be any different, until Saddam comes out from hiding (remember he had a double ) Iraq can only be prosper under a dictatorship seemed pretty good to most of them before GW Bush came along and stirred them up they had ( The US intention to bring democracy to them even if they have to kill every last one of them)

Something we can agree on. As I have been saying, they are different people to us (and US) and have been like that for a bloody long time without democracy (well the kind we know).

[terbang]

Oh yes - we can talk VERY sternly to vessels that enter our water and steal our fish - at least, the Navy guys on the scene do!
Pollies - well, thats another matter

Don't know about the Kiwi scene but the Aussies talk very sternly to those that illegaly enter their waters. I was one of the stern takers for a period of time. Trouble here in NZ is that we have no-one to talk sternly to them anymore.

[mstriumph]

Anyone who wants to nuke israel gets 2 thumbs up in my book lol

erm - isn't your slightly ott prejudice against israel a bit at odds with your signature?

i quote
"Liberalism is an essentially infantile, submissive world view. It is the world view of men who do not have the moral toughness, the spiritual strength to stand up and do single combat with life, who cannot adjust to the reality that the world is not a huge, pink-and-blue, padded nursery in which the lions lie down with the lambs and everyone lives happily ever after."

i mean, if it's one thing the israelies AREN't it's infantile and submissive and the rest of the stuff you go on about ......:innocent:

[mstriumph]

I'm not a huge fan of the Isralis myself, they have always been involved in any sort of scrap that the world has, or has has. However I used to fly for Palestinians and having felt the heat of Israeli hostility, I guess my view would be a little one sided. The irony is that the Arabs and the Jews are basicly the same race of people separated by religion. Though I think the round trip the diaspora took sort of europeanised them a bit.
The Jewish state and its supported imposition on the middle east will continue to be a scource of anguish for the Arab people for a long time to come. Though the arabs, like others, do fight amongst themselves they tend to unite when it comes to Israel and the US or anyone who supports them.
the irony is twofold
firstly that you consider yourself only 'a little' one-sided
and secondly that you only use words like 'holstility' in connection with the israelies and not the equally [or more] aggressive arabs .......and 'anguish' in connection only with the arabs, implying that only they are the victims of this ongoing insanity

just listen to yourself ...... that isn't helpful?

entrenched factionalism solves nothing

[i'm a celt - we learnt by experience ....and some would say we haven't finished learning yet]

[Dave Lobster]

Well go back to living where your beliefs lie. And hold these opinions.

Do explain..

Personally, I don't need beliefs in things like flying saucers/big wild cats/copper bracelets for rhumetism/gods/etc. Where do you suggest I go back to?

[doc]

Something we can agree on. As I have been saying, they are different people to us (and US) and have been like that for a bloody long time without democracy (well the kind we know).


Fair enough, but I don't think USA can get out of this one very tidily. But back to original topic, I don't think this one is going to roll over so easy or quickly. Feel sorry for those brits. The Iranians are no fools (not talking about the leadership) and have an experienced force with considerable active service experience on their own turf. The renaissance of the US special forces
had their first mission in this country and we know how badly they cocked that up. Lets hope the Brits keep them out of this one. Even tho its bad manners not inviting your friends to a war.

[doc]

Do explain..

Personally, I don't need beliefs in things like flying saucers/big wild cats/copper bracelets for rhumetism/gods/etc. Where do you suggest I go back to?

Ok how about this one then. Basically this is about Muslims and the others (I loosely use the christians) My problem is with the ones on the others side (Christians ) who want to keep on turning the cheek in defence of the other side. Like that Auck uni student from Canada who was captured in Iraq and threatened with beheading a year or so ago, they executed one of his group. They caught the group that did it and he wouldn't testify against them because he believed what they were doing was right and America was in the wrong. I don't think he has gone back tho Hamet Sooden or some name like that.

[Hans]

Sorry I didn't explain what I meant, it's nothing personal, but to me when for example an immigrant chooses to move and live in a different society, it seems that a democratic government allows the minority his rights, at the expense of the majority. But it doesn't work in reverse. Look at Christians in a Muslim environment. You can't have NRL players changing codes and trying to be in the AB's but still play with the rules of the code he left.

No problems at all.

[SPman]

When a fundamentalist mindset comes in the door - all reason is lost.
This applies to fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc.
They are all as stupid and pig headed as each other, will never admit they are wrong, wish to see all others "converted" or dead.

A pox on all their houses!!!!

[SixPackBack]

When a fundamentalist mindset comes in the door - all reason is lost.
This applies to fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc.
They are all as stupid and pig headed as each other, will never admit they are wrong, wish to see all others "converted" or dead.

A pox on all their houses!!!!

Yeah what SPman said.:rockon:

[Dave Lobster]

Ok how about this one then. Basically this is about Muslims and the others (I loosely use the christians) My problem is with the ones on the others side (Christians ) who want to keep on turning the cheek in defence of the other side. Like that Auck uni student from Canada who was captured in Iraq and threatened with beheading a year or so ago, they executed one of his group. They caught the group that did it and he wouldn't testify against them because he believed what they were doing was right and America was in the wrong. I don't think he has gone back tho Hamet Sooden or some name like that.

What has that got to do with me going back somewhere??

[terbang]

just listen to yourself ...... that isn't helpful?

entrenched factionalism solves nothing



Its not entrenched factionalism, its purely an observation. Why am I not helpful by putting up one side to a debate? Clearly our views are different, uh well thats normal so why the castigation. Yes there are always two sides to a story, and I have never said otherwise but I openly sympathise with one side more than the other, because I know them better. I was personally affected by Israeli hostility and eventually lost my job as a result of it. Not saying that the Israeli hostility wasn't in retaliation to something the Palestinians did and so on, but I saw enough dodgey and heavy handed behaviour to convince me that the Israelis arn't quite the good guys above the Palestinians as I suspect you and many others are alluding to. Or is that because thats what the yanks think and they must be right?

[mstriumph]

Its not entrenched factionalism, its purely an observation. Why am I not helpful by putting up one side to a debate? Clearly our views are different, uh well thats normal so why the castigation. Yes there are always two sides to a story, and I have never said otherwise but I openly sympathise with one side more than the other, because I know them better. I was personally affected by Israeli hostility and eventually lost my job as a result of it. Not saying that the Israeli hostility wasn't in retaliation to something the Palestinians did and so on, but I saw enough dodgey and heavy handed behaviour to convince me that the Israelis arn't quite the good guys above the Palestinians as I suspect you and many others are alluding to. Or is that because thats what the yanks think and they must be right?

see you changed your signature, nevertheless :yes:

yes - there are several sides to any story .... but when we, at this distance, start picking up sides and saying venomous things about nuking one side or the other [yes you did] then WHAT HOPE IS THERE THAT THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THE UNPLEASANTNESS CAN TALK ABOUT IT RATIONALLY ENOUGH TO SORT THINGS OUT?

i repeat, worded differently - the true enemy here is the 'us and them' mentality [no matter WHO you or i or anyone else decides is 'us' and who is 'them'] .......... and, irrespective of who anyone judges is the 'baddest' ... until the people concerned want peace, harmony and stability rather than vengence and destruction then none of this is going anywhere, is it

they say that truth is the first casualty of war
i'd say trust and commonsense are close behind

[doc]

What has that got to do with me going back somewhere??
Don't you remember.

[terbang]

Umm, my signature is the same as it has been for a while, perhaps you confuse me with another.


but when we, at this distance, start picking up sides and saying venomous things about nuking one side or the other [yes you did] then WHAT HOPE IS THERE THAT THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN THE UNPLEASANTNESS CAN TALK ABOUT IT RATIONALLY ENOUGH TO SORT THINGS OUT?

Umm again, for a start my opinions were formed over there, flying into Gaza in a Palestinian aircraft so the first distance comment doesn't wash. Secondly I have never, nor will I do so make any remark about nuking anybody. Though I note someone else did. So next time you get on here and SHOUT at someone, have a read back through the thread and make sure that you are shouting at the right person.

[BAD DAD]

Someone tell me again why the hell the English Navy is over there?

Probably same reason the yanks were over here approx 60 years ago

[SPman]

Probably same reason the yanks were over here approx 60 years ago
After our women?

[mstriumph]

Umm, my signature is the same as it has been for a while, perhaps you confuse me with another.



............I have never, nor will I do so make any remark about nuking anybody. Though I note someone else did. ...............

good grief

right on both counts - it was Lias :o

rant hereby and unconditionally withdrawn, with apologies!

[smoky]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?

[Hans]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?

Western civilisation would probably be more accurate. The "secular" bit also pisses them off. They just can't find it in them to comprehend that one.

[Quartermile]

A lot of talk about “our Christian morals” and Christians against Muslim/Islam. Shouldn’t we be talking about capitalism – not Christianity?
It's the drive to invest and the need to open new markets for western capitalist corporations, the materialism we baptise ourselves in is not a Christian culture at all. It’s a western culture.

In fact the essence of Christianity is a dictatorship not a democracy, from the top down, it’s main players appointed to their position – not elected – no intended democracy in Christianity, it preaches subservancy!

So while talking about Arabs and the Middle East conflict with the west – should we not talk about capitalism?
Yea but maybe it stemed from christainity, because back in the day thats how politics worked, they revolved around religion just like still do in the middle east

[terbang]

Capitalist Imperialism springs to mind. In the case of GWB and cronies it wasn't working fast enough so they reverted back to the good old military version.

[Macktheknife]

Religious tolerance
.


FAARKKK MMEEEEE you have got to be kidding!
this has to be a piss take surely, no-one could say this with a straight face could they?

[Macktheknife]

A nation built on stolen land, that still demands sympathy and reperations for a myth that supposedly happened 60 years ago. A nation run by thieves, cowards and liars, that only continues to exist because America gives it billions of dollars a year in aid. A nation thats commited more atrocities than were ever supposedly commited against its founders. Israel is a nation of pure evil.. Who _wouldnt_ want to see them burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion?

Oh my.....
Lias, are you still thrashing that dead horse?
The holocaust never happened, Jews are the biggest problem in the world, pure evil, blah blah blah.
Please get your facts right and build a bridge.
And suggesting that any nation should "burn in the fires of nuclear oblivion" is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard from anyone, it would completely destroy the rest of the world. Get a grip.
All you are achieving is to convince everyone that you are a raving nutter who could not recognise reasonable discussion if it bit him on the arse.

[Ixion]

Go check it out. For a thousand years or so while Christians were burning anybody who differed even in flavour of Christianity, let alone a whole different religion, Jews, Hindus and Christians (and a bunch of others) lived in peace under Islamic rulers. Orthodox Cristians in the Balkans, Roman Catholics ditto, Hindus in India (Akbar married a Hindu woman - what would have been the odds of Loius XIV marrying a Muslim and remaining alive, let alone non-excommunicated).

At worst a non Muslim had to pay the jirzya tax. Having paid it, he was entitled to protection and allowed to practice his faith. And the tax was only fitfully exacted. Certainly Christians suffered at the hands of despotic rulers. So did Muslims.

Even today, I'd rather be known to be a Christian in any Middle Eastern country than known to be a Muslim in the US Deep South.

See here (http://muslim-canada.org/tolerance.htm)for a brief but good exposition of Muslim religious tolerance. (by a non Muslim)

Hatred, bigotry and intolerance can certainly be found amongst Muslims. So can they likewise amongst Christians, Jews, and almost every other religious persuasion (I'm not sure about Buddhists) . Those professing such behaviours will no dounbt answer for them sooner or later, no matter what their purported faith.

[smoky]

Yea but maybe it stemed from christainity, because back in the day thats how politics worked, they revolved around religion just like still do in the middle east

Or maybe it steemed from the greed of men who used the greed of the established church hierarchy to control the ignorant masses and hold on to power. When people got educated they began to see the stupidity of the high church system - Actually contray to true faith taught in scriptures.

I'm not defending any fundermetalist - of any religion

[Quartermile]

Yea true, cos I know that back in 1 bc or whatever the priests told all the peasants that you must pay so much of your income (like tax) to got to heaven, which is oviously a crock of shit

[SixPackBack]

MODERATOR...........most of this shite needs the ol' PD shuffle.

[Lias]

There's a thin line between being an antisocial hippy basher, which is not that bad and being a redneck bogan'd nazi. Have you ever been to the Middle East, Lias? How many Arabs do you know? Would you know a Jew if you saw one without a Yarmulka? Now I am not the biggest fan of the Jews there's ever been. But they have my respect for what their contributions to science, the arts etc... Name what the A-rabs have given the world in the last thousand years.

There's a giant difference between jews, israelis, and zionists. All three are seperate categories. I've met plenty of jewish people I like and get on with. Doesnt mean I like Israel, or zionism.

Hell thou dont get me wrong I dont particularly like arabs either. I just think that Israel as a nation doesnt deserve to exist, and that zionists are just as bad as fundamentalist muslims or christians (its just that their are a hell of a lot of zionists in Israel).

I wouldnt really shed any tears if the arabs were nuked either, but I am kind of rooting for Iran atm, just because I like seeing people stand up to America & Israel.

[Hans]

There's a giant difference between jews, israelis, and zionists. All three are seperate categories. I've met plenty of jewish people I like and get on with. Doesnt mean I like Israel, or zionism.

Hell thou dont get me wrong I dont particularly like arabs either. I just think that Israel as a nation doesnt deserve to exist, and that zionists are just as bad as fundamentalist muslims or christians (its just that their are a hell of a lot of zionists in Israel).

I wouldnt really shed any tears if the arabs were nuked either, but I am kind of rooting for Iran atm, just because I like seeing people stand up to America & Israel.


Point taken, if not agreed upon.

[smoky]

There's a giant difference between jews, israelis, and zionists - (its just that their are a hell of a lot of zionists in Israel) "and that zionists are just as bad as fundamentalist muslims or christians"

Go figure .... ???? What do you think a zionist is!!


Israel as a nation doesnt deserve to exist,

And thats not racist or facist because......?

[Lias]

Go figure .... ???? What do you think a zionist is!!
And thats not racist or facist because......?

A zionist is somewhat who supports a jewish controlled state in jerusalem based on a religious belief, and created by force. A not insubstantial number of both jews and israelis are anti zionist, so being opposed to Zionism can hardly be called racist, but given you throwing in the facist as well its easy to see your just jumping on the "anyone who doesnt support zionism and israel 100% is a nazi" bandwagon.

Although I guess your facist comment could be about the way israel treats the palestinians...

[smoky]

A zionist is somewhat who supports a jewish controlled state in jerusalem based on a religious belief,

From my own experience and study; The modern concept people hold about Zionist ideology is largely divorced from it’s religious aspirations, and defensively has become about justification of Jews being a people or nation like any other. But the idea of "Zion," ("Tzyion" in Hebrew) is rooted deeply since the time of Abraham, in the belief of a hypothetical event that would occur with the coming of the Messiah at an unknown date in the far future. When the temple would be rebuilt - on 'the rock' the temple mount. And after an apocalyptical war Israel would become preeminent and be the dominate world government that the great ‘Almighty’ would use to rule the world.
The Church thru history, including modern evangelicals in the States, have always considered that the Jews had defaulted on this with the crucifixion of the said Messiah, and now sooner or later the Christians will assume this right of world government. Hense they are Zionists.
You’ll even find reference to this in the British Monarchy, Church of England and catholisim - they are all Zionists.

But even the Arabs and Muslim believe in their common ancestral right handed down from Abram to have their place of worship on the ‘Rock’ and sooner or later they will have the divine right to rule the world. They're Zionists as well.


so being opposed to Zionism can hardly be called racist, but given you throwing in the facist as well its easy to see your just jumping on the "anyone who doesnt support zionism and israel 100% is a nazi" bandwagon.

My comment was not about if you support or don't supporting Isreal, it was about the comment "Israel as a nation doesnt deserve to exist"
And I certainly wouldn't insult any one by calling them nazi.

If you beleive a whole nation hasn't got the right to exist - then surley thats rather facist? No!

Historical undisputed well documented fact; In the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD, a large numbers of Jews were exiled from Roman Palestine, the remains of their ancient national home.

[doc]

Sorry guy's but as a KB'rholic, ok I'll get a bike one day. Don't want to be a "stick in the mud" But as I spend so much of my life here I don't get to watch the new's etc they watch other stuff. But I must stand up for myself as a man here I pay the bills[SIZE="2"]Tell me people what's happened to the troops this thread started off on. Secretly I'm a bit worried that, if the yanks pull out of Iraq, the Iranian's will take over the moment they pullout, and I'll have no petrol that I can afford anyway[SIZE]

[smoky]

I think they're spoilin for a fight my self.
Thats why they took them. provacation.

[BAD DAD]

A thing to consider is this: In the event of "Israel" being over-run,deleted, neutralized or whatever to the point that the "Palestinians" were given or seized control of the disputed territories, apart from the slaughter of many "Israelis" and the destruction of countless homes,schools and businesses, WHAT would change for the average "Palestinian". I reckon that nothing would be gained and in fact there would be anger at the loss of security and resentment from the Palestinians at the lack of personal freedom and control that they had hoped to gain but had in fact lost. They would be horrified to find themselves under the control of influences by other arab and muslim states but without the security of the Israelie military and sudden unemployment and loss of accsess to education and health facilities.
No matter what side you support, the Palestinians will suffer more at the end of Israel than they will under its control.

[MisterD]

So, back to the hostages. Watching the analysis on Sky UK, it's all a bit worrying the way that lass is being paraded by the Iranians.

The only thing I'm certain of right now, is that Garmin are getting some amazing free advertising...