Accepting personal responsibility

[FROSTY]

Just a thought here folks. I hear over and over again about cage drivers doing this and city councils doing that. Its a pretty common subject in here.
How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folks

[Steam]

How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folks

Does that extend to victims of crime?
Is it your responsibility for a home invasion in which your wife gets beaten senseless and your daughter raped?
How about a disabled person, are they responsible for being in a wheelchair after someone in a car ran off the road and hit them on the footpath?
Or a healthy person who has a stroke because of a hereditary disease and is paralysed on one side, is that their fault?
Is it the fault of a Rawandan that they got hacked to pieces by a machette weilding tribesman?

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Frosty. Shame on you.


EDIT: Oh, he meant on the road. Yep, I agree with that.

[Hitcher]

OK, I've thought it through. Now what?

[FROSTY]

Does that extend to victims of crime?
Is it your responsibility for a home invasion in which your wife gets beaten senseless and your daughter raped?
How about a disabled person, are they responsible for being in a wheelchair after someone in a car ran off the road and hit them on the footpath?
Or a healthy person who has a stroke because of a hereditary disease and is paralysed on one side, is that their fault?
Is it the fault of a Rawandan that they got hacked to pieces by a machette weilding tribesman?

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Frosty. Shame on you.
On the road dude on the road!!

[FROSTY]

by accepting responsibilityinstead of blaming others we can actually do something to prevent the accident otr incident I keep reading about.

[The Stranger]

Does that extend to victims of crime?
Is it your responsibility for a home invasion in which your wife gets beaten senseless and your daughter raped?
How about a disabled person, are they responsible for being in a wheelchair after someone in a car ran off the road and hit them on the footpath?
Or a healthy person who has a stroke because of a hereditary disease and is paralysed on one side, is that their fault?
Is it the fault of a Rawandan that they got hacked to pieces by a machette weilding tribesman?

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Frosty. Shame on you.

Bit harsh isn't it.
Frosty was talking about whilst riding, not everything in life.

Plus Frosty is right - there is a truckload of shit that goes down that people just don't think about.
Spoke to a guy the other day cursing a car which changed lanes and knocked him off his bike.
Sure it was the cage fault, but if he wasn't riding in their blind spot and had left room for the cage to just pull over (as they are want to do, and we all know it) he would have been sweet. Who came off worse? The bike of course. He could have been killed and would it matter who's fault it was?
So had he taken responsibility for his riding he wouldn't have been sitting there.

[Steam]

by accepting responsibilityinstead of blaming others we can actually do something to prevent the accident otr incident I keep reading about.

True dat. Even when somebody nearly hits me due to their stupidity, I still know it's my choice to be out there on the bike, ultimately it's my responsibility to choose not to drive a nice safe volvo with airbags and abs and side-intrusion bars, etc.
So I agree totally with you Frosty.

[Macktheknife]

Does that extend to victims of crime?
Is it your responsibility for a home invasion in which your wife gets beaten senseless and your daughter raped?
How about a disabled person, are they responsible for being in a wheelchair after someone in a car ran off the road and hit them on the footpath?
Or a healthy person who has a stroke because of a hereditary disease and is paralysed on one side, is that their fault?
Is it the fault of a Rawandan that they got hacked to pieces by a machette weilding tribesman?

That's one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Frosty. Shame on you.

You know I could be wrong, but I believe he said think it through, clearly you didn't.
Frosty is absolutely right, and any shame should be on you steam. We all need to accept responsibility for OUR actions, our choices which may increase the risks and possible consequences to us as a result of our decisions on the road.
I grant you that Frosty could have maybe phrased it more clearly but his meaning was clear to those of us who have been around a bit.
The Stranger mentions a discussion I was also part of and both of us tried to make the rider concerned understand that he had made several decisions leading up to his 'off' that made a big difference to how things worked out. I am still concerned that this rider doesn't understand how his actions basically created the situation where he could be 'taken by surprise' by a car.
That is a good example of not taking responsibility for one's actions.
Like Frosty said, think about it.

[SlashWylde]

Couldn't agree more Frosty. That philosophy plays a large part in the way I ride, and is why I've stayed safe over the last two and a half years and 30,000+ kms on my bikes.

Simple really.

[Shadows]

Just a thought here folks. I hear over and over again about cage drivers doing this and city councils doing that. Its a pretty common subject in here.
How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folks

Yep, after a rather recent close-up inspection of a cage driver's door I had a number of people ask "was it his fault?". Technically, yes, but all I could say in reply was "He didn't obey the road rules.... but I should have seen him coming and done something about it".

[Drum]

............. He could have been killed and would it matter who's fault it was?...........

And therein lies the crux of the matter. It doesn't matter whose fault it is.

All that matters is that you try your doggone hardest to avoid a bin, whoever is in the wrong. And even then it may still happen.

[McJim]

Aww but it's so much fun to blame someone else. There's a kind of therapeutic value to being able to say "my bin didn't count coz they ran a red light..........and I really didn't expect them to." Means I can carry on ignoring what the cages are up to and get knocked off again.

You're spoiling my fun! :rofl:

Seriously though - wot Frosty sed.:Punk:

[Edbear]

And therein lies the crux of the matter. It doesn't matter whose fault it is.

All that matters is that you try your doggone hardest to avoid a bin, whoever is in the wrong. And even then it may still happen.


There was that rhyme many moons ago...

"Here lies the body of William Clay,
who died maintaining his 'right of way'.
He was right, dead right, as he sped along!
But now he's just as dead, as if he'd been dead wrong!"

One does wonder at times, that while there are situations beyond our control when accidents occur, how many could have been avoided if the victim had been riding defensively, rather than aggressively.
"I've got the right of way, here, that idiot driver better not to anything stupid!" is tempting fate. EXPECT the "idiot driver" to do something stupid! Discretion is the better part of valour. While your memory may be honoured, you're still dead and can't ride anymore...

[Grahameeboy]

Aww but it's so much fun to blame someone else. There's a kind of therapeutic value to being able to say "my bin didn't count coz they ran a red light..........and I really didn't expect them to." Means I can carry on ignoring what the cages are up to and get knocked off again.

You're spoiling my fun! :rofl:

Seriously though - wot Frosty sed.:Punk:

Arhhh...you miserable Scots need something to amuse yaselves I guess..........

[aff-man]

Sorry to disagree...

But sure IF I was doing something stupid and came unstuck THEN i'll accept responsibility for my actions and not try flog the blame off.

When I am following the road laws of NZ and someone else decides not to then why should I say oh it was my fault for not being a frikken mind reader. Sure on the road you develope a second sense about when people are about to do something silly but it doesn't mean I am going to worry about every cage within a 5m radius of my bike.

Now I know I'm not the most rule abiding road user.... but I sure as hell am not going to try reason away people who run red lights, pull out of driveways without looking, change lanes without checking thier blind spots etc etc.. as to the blind spot riding comment, It's like overtaking on the track it's THIER responsibility to make sure the road is clear for them to change not our's, we can be courtious when they indicate (which most don't) but that's about it.

[Roj]

On the road dude on the road!!

I would have to disagree even limiting it to the road.

My wife was knocked off her bike by an unlicensed driver in an unregistered car, you can always say "what if she did xyz differently" but the reality was that she wasn't speeding, had a good bike, rego & warrant, rides with the light on, wasn't speeding, had seen the car and slowed down even though she was on a straight road, when the other driver some how was unable to see the her and did a right turn directly in front of her, only metres away, she was unable to avoid the car.:shit:

[scumdog]

Just a thought here folks. I hear over and over again about cage drivers doing this and city councils doing that. Its a pretty common subject in here.
How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folks

Farkoff!

This is the 21st century, NOBODY ever takes responsibility for anything that goes wrong in their lives anymore.

Even when they did it all by themselves.:yes:

[ManDownUnder]

Farkoff!

This is the 21st century, NOBODY ever takes responsibility for anything that goes wrong in their lives anymore.

Even when they did it all by themselves.:yes:

Thank God for Labour!

Re responsibility for safety on the road.... yeah not 100% possible, but pretty bloody close. It's evidenced by the more experienced having longer spells between bins. It's also those same people that don't have much to prove. Co-incidence?

Sure you're going to get something small and furry cross your path from time to time (eh Mack) and at that point you'll minimise your injuries if you've taken responsibility... safety gear, done your practice as cornering/braking etc.

Even just knowing your options, taking responsibility for learning what you can/should do when you see a rabbit about to go under the front wheel.

Brake?
Swerve?
Line it up, hit the gas?

I was lucky enough to have a word with a certain gent on here a while back. I understand a major reason he's involved in KB is because he's "giving something back"... seen enough people die on/near bikes, and he mentioned he's had enough - wants to do something to slow it down. He's taking responsibility for himself - and donning the mantle for others, or helping them don their own. That's the guy that started this thread.

I know I've seen enough m/c carnage to last me a lifetime, so has he, and if there's anything that can be done to get people through their most risky years of riding then that's what's going to happen.

Taking the piss is all fun and easy, it might even give you something laugh about from a hospital bed. Or it could be worth listening to what was actually said, and what was meant.

[Jimmy B]

I like Ixion's philosophy, not sure exactly how he would put it but it goes something like, whilst acknowledging the hazards of biking Ix’ absolutely refuses to bin and takes all practical precautions to make that a reality. I read this to say he takes responsibility for his own actions. Something I endeavour to emulate.

Good post Frosty

[The Stranger]

I would have to disagree even limiting it to the road.

My wife was knocked off her bike by an unlicensed driver in an unregistered car, you can always say "what if she did xyz differently" but the reality was that she wasn't speeding, had a good bike, rego & warrant, rides with the light on, wasn't speeding, had seen the car and slowed down even though she was on a straight road, when the other driver some how was unable to see the her and did a right turn directly in front of her, only metres away, she was unable to avoid the car.:shit:

Ok, there are always going to be exceptions. Not saying this case is or is not, obviously I wasn't there.
At the end of the day, we are all human and we all make mistakes. Sometimes the mistake is like "whew that was close" and sometimes it may mean people will be attending your funeral.

But still what Frosty says is valid, it is an attitude. It is the way we should approach our riding (and life in general) if we continually try and palm off blame we don't take the next step of trying to avoid the problem becoming one.
If we blame the car for changing lanes without indicating we fail to take the step of staying the hell out of the way. If we accept that it is the red light runners fault that he ran the red then you fail to take the step of treating it like a stop sign and checking both ways before you proceed when it turns green.
The list goes on and on.

So blame others all you want, but if you dont start taking responsibility, you could well be doing your blaming from the grave.

But even though you may accept 100% responsibility for yourself there are no guarantees, as i say, we are all human, we all make mistakes and some of them will kill ya.

[Deano]

Sorry Frosty et al, but I agree with Affman.

[mstriumph]

................. but it doesn't mean I am going to worry about every cage within a 5m radius of my bike.................

i do

anything within quite a bit more of an envelope than 5 metres, too ..........
i'm not watching out for their benefit - i'm watching out for ME

if something happens to me on the road the first thing i always think is "what could i have done to avoid that?" .... it's not about apportioning blame, it's more about making it a learning experience


......... can't help but notice how defensive some here are though - you've obviously touched a nerve, Frosty [but then, that's wat this thread was about, wasn't it?]

[Jimmy B]

Sorry Frosty et al, but I agree with Affman.

I quite like this definition of responsibility in the context of this discussion:

"The moral and forward-looking sense of responsibility is the sense in which one is responsible for achieving (or maintaining) a good result in some matter. The idea is that one is entrusted with achieving or maintaining this outcome, and expected to both have relevant knowledge and skills, and to make a conscientious effort. However, despite one's best efforts, the result may not be achieved"

So maybe by taking responsibility for our own actions we would be better served to take responsibility for the actions of others as well. I think some of The Strangers points/examples are relevant here.

Edit - Just another thought; Responsibility is not the equivalent of accountablity - maybe think about that as well

[SlashWylde]

Sorry Frosty et al, but I agree with Affman.

...And by adopting that attitude you are placing some of the responsibility for your safety in someone elses hands. That's the crux of the matter.

It's an attitude one adopts to increase ones safety, not a 100% guarantee that you'll always be safe.

[aff-man]

...And by adopting that attitude you are placing some of the responsibility for your safety in someone elses hands. That's the crux of the matter.

It's an attitude one adopts to increase ones safety, not a 100% guarantee that you'll always be safe.

But the thing is with very few exeptions for almost anything you do you'll be putting some part of your safety in someone else's hands. Usually it's not as blatent as a tandum skydive or an amusement park ride, but on the road you are trusting that other road users are going to abide by a certian set of rules. If they don't you could get hurt.... Does that mean you stop riding?

In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility. Not bloody likely.

[surfer]

But the thing is with very few exeptions for almost anything you do you'll be putting some part of your safety in someone else's hands. Usually it's not as blatent as a tandum skydive or an amusement park ride, but on the road you are trusting that other road users are going to abide by a certian set of rules. If they don't you could get hurt.... Does that mean you stop riding?

In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility. Not bloody likely.

There is a case for taking responsibility for self however what seperates one side of the road from the other and oncoming vehicles is a thin white line. We are expected to trust other users not to cross it, like we are expected to trust other road users to obey the road rules. Sometimes though the road is made dangerous for all by stupid acts of others that are beyond your control.

Take responsibility for your actions but not everything is about you.

[DMNTD]

In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility..

Sure but every tackle could potentially put you in a wheel chair for life therefore it's up to you to do your best to protect yourself when a "tackle" comes your way....sometimes there's nothing we can do but if we at least try the odds are reduced greatly.


IE....I "play" like everyone is trying to kill me

[Jimmy B]

In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility. Not bloody likely.

In this example your responsibility would be to play the game within the confines of the rules, every one on the paddock is responsible for not only their own safety but also the safety of those around them. By infringing against another player you may receive a level of retaliation, as you describe, such as a pile driver, in this instance you must accept some responsibility for that event however it does not make you accountable. So playing within the rules would likely lessen the chances of retaliation so its a sound strategy to follow. You take responsibility for that risk and act accordingly.

If it was an unprovoked incident then equally it does not make you responsible for the actions of another or accountable either, could make you dead though.

I get the original post and you differ, that’s fine, its all good that we are thinking about how it could ultimately impact on our riding strategies :Punk:

[Macktheknife]

But the thing is with very few exeptions for almost anything you do you'll be putting some part of your safety in someone else's hands. Usually it's not as blatent as a tandum skydive or an amusement park ride, but on the road you are trusting that other road users are going to abide by a certian set of rules. If they don't you could get hurt.... Does that mean you stop riding?

In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility. Not bloody likely.
That is not what was said mate, I get where you are coming from but I really think you have missed the point of the original comments.
This is about riders understanding what they are doing that contributes to the incidents that occur, not about blame or fault.
In the example I mentioned earlier, the rider was completely unaware how his road positioning made the situation more likely to occur. This is a problem because when you know something is possible, and do nothing to avoid it, you are contributing to the situation in a negative and potentially dangerous way.
By contrast, if you know that where you are on the road makes it difficult for another driver to see you, it just makes sense to move to a more visible position.
If you know that a particular stretch of road is well known for diesel spills, should you blast down there safe in the belief that because it is illegal and stupid that it won't happen? Of course not.
Too often I hear riders try to ignore their own contributions to accidents, take the case of a young rider lane-splitting at 100ks, his explanation of the incident was that it was not his fault, followed by not entirely his fault, finally it became, I didn't know he was going to change lanes.
I have yet to hear the rider say, it was totally my own fault, I should not have been splitting at 100ks.
I do not believe that Frosty or anyone else is saying or intending that if bad shit happens it is totally your own fault. Only that we all need to do what we can to take care of ourselves, be aware of the dumbshits who surround us, and make allowances for stupid people, after all it is not news that cagers seldom look for us.
We all trust that others will obey the road rules, we also know that frequently they don't. Taking responsibility in this context means you know about it, you do the best you can to protect yourself from it, and you help others do the same.
I have one other comment, other road users trust that we also will be obeying the rules, how often does that trust get misplaced.

[mstriumph]

Sure but every tackle could potentially put you in a wheel chair for life therefore it's up to you to do your best to protect yourself when a "tackle" comes your way....sometimes there's nothing we can do but if we at least try the odds are reduced greatly.


IE....I "play" like everyone is trying to kill me

absolut! bling for that man!

....... i ride assertively .. but still like everyone is trying to kill me ...... hey- it works for me

[aff-man]

absolut! bling for that man!

....... i ride assertively .. but still like everyone is trying to kill me ...... hey- it works for me

Yip I ride as like that as well but more on a sub concious level. If you are concentrating on a car that looks like it might make a move you are more likely to miss the idiot that pulls out in front of you. I ride on the road taking in everything but being relaxed and trusting my reactions to be suffcient to save myself... I am not going to ride in a trucks blindspot though or similar. There are preventative mesures but no substitute for experience and sometime just a little luck.

Mac: Totally agree and well if lane splitting the responsibility is on you because you are doing something outside the norm. No I have not missed the point of the origional comments and if you read my first post you'll see that I say if you're doing anything that is not normal you're should take responsibility, and I said that I do that frequently. But the point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of circumstances where an incident occurs and people say well you should have been riding in a particular way or you should have been aware of something. I love riding and am not going to do so on eggshells because I know how stupid cars can be....

[Morcs]

Just a thought here folks. I hear over and over again about cage drivers doing this and city councils doing that. Its a pretty common subject in here.
How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folks

True, but we are bikers, and because of that we are very prone to incidents for many reasons and are targeted by authorities because we are by far superior road users.

We all know the world would be a better place without cages, so i accept responsibilty for some things that happen to me, but not everything.

I hope this helps :)

[Ixion]

I would distinguish between "responsible" and "accountable". One meaning of "responsible" and the one that I think is being thought of here , is along the lines of "being the causative agent for something" e.g. "The storm was responsible for a great number of damaged roofs"

When I am riding, I do not think anyone else can be responsible for my safety.Nobody else on the road really cares if I am safe or not and nobody is in a position to assess my safety . We may, with elightenment, consider the differing position of a learner driver in a car - the qualified supervisor is responsible for the safety of the driver.

Similarly we consider parents responsible for the safety of small children.

But that does not mean that the responsible person is alone instrumental in providing a safe environment, either on the road, or for small children.


Other road users have their various duties , and I (and the law ) may hold them accountable for any dereliction in that duty.

So if I am riding along and some idiot comes toward me, deliberately on the wrong side of the road, I am the only one that CAN be responsible for getting out of that situation safely. The other driver is deliberately driving on the wrong side of the road. So he is not going to accept any responsibility for protecting me. And there is noone else around. It's down to me.

But, having avoided the homocidal idiot, I shall most certainly hold him ACCOUNTABLE for his actions . Firstly by beating him to a pulp and then by handing him over to the law.

This is by and large the core principle of defensive driving - "no matter what happens or who is to blame for it, the only person interested in getting ME out of the shit is ME"

But sometimes not even the most defensive driving will not help . For instance the biker recently killed when a branch fell on his head. Some times shit just happens.

[Grahameeboy]

I would distinguish between "responsible" and "accountable". One meaning of "responsible" and the one that I think is being thought of here , is along the lines of "being the causative agent for something" e.g. "The storm was responsible for a great number of damaged roofs"

When I am riding, I do not think anyone else can be responsible for my safety.Nobody else on the road really cares if I am safe or not and nobody is in a position to assess my safety . We may, with elightenment, consider the differing position of a learner driver in a car - the qualified supervisor is responsible for the safety of the driver.

Similarly we consider parents responsible for the safety of small children.

But that does not mean that the responsible person is alone instrumental in providing a safe environment, either on the road, or for small children.


Other road users have their various duties , and I (and the law ) may hold them accountable for any dereliction in that duty.

So if I am riding along and some idiot comes toward me, deliberately on the wrong side of the road, I am the only one that CAN be responsible for getting out of that situation safely. The other driver is deliberately driving on the wrong side of the road. So he is not going to accept any responsibility for protecting me. And there is noone else around. It's down to me.

But, having avoided the homocidal idiot, I shall most certainly hold him ACCOUNTABLE for his actions . Firstly by beating him to a pulp and then by handing him over to the law.

This is by and large the core principle of defensive driving - "no matter what happens or who is to blame for it, the only person interested in getting ME out of the shit is ME"

But sometimes not even the most defensive driving will not help . For instance the biker recently killed when a branch fell on his head. Some times shit just happens.

:zzzz: :zzzz: :zzzz: :zzzz: :zzzz: :zzzz:

[Macktheknife]

True, but we are bikers, and because of that we are very prone to incidents for many reasons and are targeted by authorities because we are by far superior road users.
I hope this helps :)

Cough Cough *bullshit* Cough

Since when could you be classified as a superior anything Morcs? lol:lol: :killingme :killingme

[SlashWylde]

But the thing is with very few exeptions for almost anything you do you'll be putting some part of your safety in someone else's hands. Usually it's not as blatent as a tandum skydive or an amusement park ride, but on the road you are trusting that other road users are going to abide by a certian set of rules. If they don't you could get hurt....

Yes, of course. But that's obvious.


Does that mean you stop riding?

No of course not


In sport when people don't adhere to the rules someone gets hurt, so buy your guys resoning if i'm playing rugby and someone picks me up and dumps me on my head, it was my fault for not realising that they were not going to tackle me legitimantly and so I should accept resonsibility. Not bloody likely.

Nope, a simplistic argument like that misses the point.

The point I'm trying to make is that when one rides a bike in traffic or on the track, or jumps out of a plane, or plays rugby, there are certain steps one can take take to manage the risk. These include wearing suitable safety gear, slowing down if it's raining, and reading the road users around you to try and figure out what might happen next.

Sure there may be the occasional random nutter who comes at you out of the blue and hits you even after you had done your best to scan for hazards. Of course he is in the wrong and obviously there was nothing one could have done to avoid it given the circumstances and that is the noise floor of risk.

It's a pretty simple concept really. I'm surprised it requires so much explanation.

[Hitcher]

and that is the noise floor of risk.

It's a pretty simple concept really. I'm surprised it requires so much explanation.

The Fluffy Rug of Certainty, however, is not quite so simply explained.

[Grub]

by accepting responsibilityinstead of blaming others we can actually do something to prevent the accident otr incident I keep reading about.

Whoever heard of such an idea. I don't know where he gets them from. Doesn't he know it's always someone elses fault? (p/t)

Yes well, it's a good time to raise it and it's not a popular thougth either but I have been disturbed lately too reading some of the "I got hit" threads. That's not true of all of course but there's been a few of this ilk lately ...

"... I was lane splitting on the North Western at only 50-60k's when this wanker changed lanes and i had nowhere to go but into his door! Bike's f**d and I'm sore but ok..."

FFS! What is anyone doing lane-splitting at over 20kmh! There is of course many other examples and we need to acknowledge them ... as unpalatable as that may be. That's the way we'll learn to stay safe.

[aff-man]

The point I'm trying to make is that when one rides a bike in traffic or on the track, or jumps out of a plane, or plays rugby, there are certain steps one can take take to manage the risk. These include wearing suitable safety gear, slowing down if it's raining, and reading the road users around you to try and figure out what might happen next.

Sure there may be the occasional random nutter who comes at you out of the blue and hits you even after you had done your best to scan for hazards. Of course he is in the wrong and obviously there was nothing one could have done to avoid it given the circumstances and that is the noise floor of risk.

It's a pretty simple concept really. I'm surprised it requires so much explanation.


Dude fully agree...... totally different point though.... I am saying that you can take steps to make yourself safe.. which is what you're saying.... but the responsibility of someone else's actions if you are obeying the nz road rules is thiers alone.....

[Morcs]

Cough Cough *bullshit* Cough

Since when could you be classified as a superior anything Morcs? lol:lol: :killingme :killingme


Dunno....

Well I do have 5 chicks on the go at the moment, and all are hot.. :D

[avgas]

I am responsible for my own fuckups.
But just remember folks - someone else is responsible for your death!!!!

[Morcs]

But just remember folks - someone else is responsible for your death!!!!

Yeah, the grim fecking reaper :D

[Scouse]

Just a thought here folks.Hows about you stop trying to think for the rest of us
I hear over and over again about cage drivers doing this and city councils doing that. Its a pretty common subject in here.If ya dont like it dont read it

How about we actually think to ourselves "I ACCEPT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS TO ME"
Think it through folksWhat if you just think for your self and the rest of us think for our selves

[mstriumph]

Hows about you stop trying to think for the rest of us If ya dont like it dont read it
What if you just think for your self and the rest of us think for our selves

there there :grouphug: you're just having a really bad day, aren't you?

[Grahameeboy]

there there :grouphug: you're just having a really bad day, aren't you?

Nah that's a good day for him MsT.........:done:

[yungatart]

What if you just think for your self and the rest of us think for our selves

Trouble with that is, it assumes that all of us think!
Kinda stretching it a bit, isn't it?

[Grahameeboy]

Trouble with that is, it assumes that all of us think!
Kinda stretching it a bit, isn't it?

Arrr..well said Grasshopper.........Doma Arigater Sensei...........:rockon:

[Macktheknife]

Hows about you stop trying to think for the rest of us If ya dont like it dont read it
What if you just think for your self and the rest of us think for our selves

Jeezus boy, what crawled up your arse and got you in a pickle?

Frosty, like many other mentors on the site, is showing his concern for other riders. He spends countless hours helping others and teaching newer riders how to handle their bikes, their tools, and themselves when it comes to riding and surviving.
Whatever your issue is, you might want to consider that you are slagging off someone who has, does and will continue to do a lot for any member of KB who needs help.
You might even be one of those one day.
Before you get into this you might want to do some of that 'thinking for yourself' that you were on about.

[Grahameeboy]

Jeezus boy, what crawled up your arse and got you in a pickle?



A 'Potholer'.....................but well said...........thinks he can throw his 6ft 5 frame and 200lb plus frame around.......mmmm.......must :scooter:

[Scouse]

Frosty,is trying to teaching newer riders how to handle their bikes, their tools, and themselves when it comes to riding and surviving.
You might even be one of those one day.
I doubt that very much sunshine I dont think there is much to learn from a back of the pack formula 3 tryer

[Grahameeboy]

I doubt that very much sunshine

So is your bike repaired yet??

[Scorpygirl]

My name is Scorpygirl and I take responsibility for my crash!!! :shutup: (P/T).

Honestly though I am quite gutted about having a crash so soon after climbing back in the saddle again. I can't remember much really, trying to play it over in my mind, and keep thinking about what I could have done differently. I probably (maybe) could have braked harder, sooner. All I know is I have learnt from this and will be even more aware of gaps in the traffic where a car could come through. I am more determined than ever to do the RRRS course, once the bike is on the road.

[sidecar bob]

I wish the ass who dropped his Fireblade all down the side of my car on boxing day outside the Grand Hotel in Wanganui, while i was at the Cemetary Circiut had accepted personal responsibility, instead of jumping on his bike & buggering off.

[Scorpygirl]

I have been thinking about this all night. Frosty do you mean fault, responsibility or accountability.

In many of the bike incidents I think they mean someone was legally at fault. Ok they may say XYZ was responsible but thats not what they really mean. Please Frosty most of us are hurt in more ways than one and we try to learn. Don't bag us cause in the heat of being hurt we mix the metaphor.

[Hitcher]

If we were all to accept personal responsibility, what the fuck would we moan about?

[James Deuce]

I have been thinking about this all night. Frosty do you mean fault, responsibility or accountability.


Yes. Indeed.

[Macktheknife]

I doubt that very much sunshine I dont think there is much to learn from a back of the pack formula 3 tryer

I don't know you and I have no idea of your history, but I do know Frosty. I have seen him spend many hours with many people going over basic skills of how to ride and control the bikes they are on. I have seen him give up his time and effort to pick up peoples bikes when they have ditched them, put them in his van and take them home for total strangers.
I have seen him provide parts for peoples bikes from his own garage, when they have needed them due to accident or similar, without accepting payment for them.
I have spent many hours as a mentor myself working alongside him and seeing how much sincere effort and passion he puts in to improving new riders skills. I am aware of how many of the mistakes of new riders come from not considering all aspects of road conditions and simple errors in reading situations. This one of the most crucial aspects of new rider training.
I have never seen you on these nights, nor have I ever heard of you giving up your time for these riders who need mentoring and can benefit from experienced riders sharing and explaining the common mistakes.
Your opinion of Frosty notwithstanding, he is doing his best and puts up his time and skills to help others.
Besides giving him shit, what are you doing?

[Macktheknife]

I have been thinking about this all night. Frosty do you mean fault, responsibility or accountability.

In many of the bike incidents I think they mean someone was legally at fault. Ok they may say XYZ was responsible but thats not what they really mean. Please Frosty most of us are hurt in more ways than one and we try to learn. Don't bag us cause in the heat of being hurt we mix the metaphor.

Pretty sure he is not bagging anyone here SG, just asking the question if maybe some people are looking to 'blame' others without recognising what they have done to contribute to the situation, like riding in a blind spot.

[McJim]

I think the gist of Frosty's statement is that we should abandon the blame culture where each individual rider assumes that because they themselves are obeying the rules of the road that they are therefore in little or no danger. As a subset of road users we are more vulnerable than most and are vulnerable by choice (the choice being our decision to ride bikes).

We must therefore be responsible in that we ride in such a way as to allow for the fact that many cages are driven by fuckwits whose minds are invariably on something else at the time.

The responsibility implied here is not legal accountability and is certainly not the apportioning (or apportionment?...Hitcher?) of blame.

Be aware that your choice of transport puts you in harms way. Being aware of that harm is a good distance along the road of staying upright.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick......again?

[scumdog]

I think the gist of Frosty's statement is that we should abandon the blame culture where each individual rider assumes that because they themselves are obeying the rules of the road that they are therefore in little or no danger.

Be aware that your choice of transport puts you in harms way. Being aware of that harm is a good distance along the road of staying upright.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick......again?

True -so true!

I'm sure a lot of people breeze through intersections thinking they're OK 'cos they don't have a red-light/stop sign/give way in their way - AND assume that nobody else would run a red light etc,stop sign/give way.

They are SO trusting - and so dead in in some cases.

[dogsnbikes]

Some things are out of your control but when the wheels are rolling keeping your bubble together comes down mostly too reading your surroundings other road users and the unexpected

when following other road users I always make sure I can see there side mirror,I watch there heads as I find its a good indication of any sudden lane change

you cant always control what happens on a bike but staying focused sure does reduce the odds

and I do have a complaint about fellow bikers...... driving from Palmerston north to Katikati on monday I was annoyed with the amount of riders that dont ride with their lights on bloody hard too see......... lucky I'm a biker as well and understand what other bikers are like............................

but know your limitations,your surroundings and always expect the unexpected :Punk:

[The Stranger]

I doubt that very much sunshine I dont think there is much to learn from a back of the pack formula 3 tryer

So how's your racing going anyway?

[MSTRS]

I doubt that very much sunshine I dont think there is much to learn from a back of the pack formula 3 tryer

...as opposed to all there is to learn from the racing legends KIA over the years?
What's performance on the track got to do with anything?

[Roj]

[
I have been thinking about this all night. Frosty do you mean fault, responsibility or accountability.



I think this is the heart of the matter,

It has certainly got me thinking which is probably the main intent of the thread.

"most" riders take resposibility to ensure they do everything they can to be safe on the roads.

I certainly do and my good lady has done. I think the bit that has got up most people was accepting personal responsibility "for everything"

I am accountable & responsible for my own safety, the condition of my bike and gear. I do my best to ride to the conditions, I don't travel fast (cause I like to enjoy the ride) and I try my best to ride in a manner that I can identify hazzards etc.

The last accident I had was a very long time ago, in the left hand of 2 lanes heading up to an intersection, someone turning right up ahead, the car beside me decides I don't exist, and crosses in to my lane, I try to get his attention by tooting the horn, look ahead to see the car coming the otherway has turned right infront of me then stopped in the midlle of the intersection because there were pedestrians crossing.

I hit the rear passenger side of the car...

20/20 hind sight tells me if I had hit the brakes a little earlier rather than trying to get the attention of the idiot beside me I would have been OK.

I accept responsibility for my failure to respond correctly, but I don't accept responsibilty for the car moving in to my lane without adequately checking it was clear and for the car I hit entering an intersection when the exit was not clear as well as the fact he should have given way to the oncoming traffic.

[Hitcher]

Is there/should there be a difference between "personal responsibility" in terms of what one accepts as a road user versus, say, one's commercial or professional relationships?

[Swoop]

Sorry to disagree...but it doesn't mean I am going to worry about every cage within a 5m radius of my bike.
I tend to regard anyone outside of 10mm distance of the handlebars, from my bike, as a hazard.

Case in point. Looking up 100m of a lane of slow-moving traffic. Nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing exciting happening.
"6th-sense" meter being "tweaked" somewhat. 70metres up the road a cager dives into the right hand lane, obviously without indicating.
'Twas thinking, glad I wasn't there at that time.
Constantly moving focus (close/ middle/ distant) will be much better than locking into a set distance.


Trouble with that is, it assumes that all of us think!
Kinda stretching it a bit, isn't it?
The thought process, when holding onto a set of handlebars, seems to be much swifter than when holding something circular and having an "accelerator" under the right foot.

[yungatart]

The thought process, when holding onto a set of handlebars, seems to be much swifter than when holding something circular and having an "accelerator" under the right foot.

The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be an extraordinarily large number of KBers that don't think, at all....in response to Zrxer's post about Frosty thinking for himself, and leaving the rest of us to do the same.

[avgas]

Yeah, the grim fecking reaper :D
You know my misses too???

[Deano]

I wish the ass who dropped his Fireblade all down the side of my car on boxing day outside the Grand Hotel in Wanganui, while i was at the Cemetary Circiut had accepted personal responsibility, instead of jumping on his bike & buggering off.

But surely you must take some responsibility for parking it there, knowing that there would be lots of idiots out on bikes, trying to emulate what the racers were doing. (P/t)

I take responsibility for my actions, but if someone ploughs into me in an unforeseen situation that I cannot avoid, I do not hold myself responsible, accountable, or at fault for the crash.

I hear what is being said about being responsible for our own safety though.

[FROSTY]

Actually folks really
This
Attitude also plays a part. Taking responsibility for your own actions is easy, but because you, the motorcyclist, will more likely suffer bodily harm in the event of a crash, then you, the motorcyclist, must take responsibility for everyone else’s actions as well. This means being tuned into not only your self, your bike, and your environment, but also being aware of other drivers, correctly anticipating their behavior, and effectively avoiding hazards before they place you at risk. Ideally, a skilled rider avoids hazards before they even become hazards
Was what I was getting at

[sidecar bob]

Actually folks really
Ideally, a skilled rider avoids hazards before they even become hazards
Was what I was getting at

Like parking your 'Blade stand side low, on soft tarseal next to a car.

[Goblin]

I take responsibility for my actions, but if someone ploughs into me in an unforeseen situation that I cannot avoid, I do not hold myself responsible, accountable, or at fault for the crash.

I hear ya loud an clear Deano! :niceone:

[SPman]

Actually folks really
This
Attitude also plays a part. Taking responsibility for your own actions is easy, but because you, the motorcyclist, will more likely suffer bodily harm in the event of a crash, then you, the motorcyclist, must take responsibility for everyone else’s actions as well. This means being tuned into not only your self, your bike, and your environment, but also being aware of other drivers, correctly anticipating their behavior, and effectively avoiding hazards before they place you at risk. Ideally, a skilled rider avoids hazards before they even become hazards
Was what I was getting at
You mean active defensive riding. - like that not practised by at least half of the riders on the roads and 7/8ths of car drivers.