Texans get it right

[Lias]

We need a law like this in NZ. Texas has just enshrined in law the right to use deadly force to defend your house, your car, and your place of work. Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place.. Meaning if you see a burglar halfway into your window you can shoot them stone cold dead, no warnings.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4008610a12.html

Texans given deadly force gun laws
Reuters | Wednesday, 28 March 2007

DALLAS: Criminals in Texas beware: if you threaten someone in their car or office, the citizens of this state where guns are ubiquitous have the right to shoot you dead.

Governor Rick Perry's office said on Tuesday that he had signed a new law that expands Texans' existing right to use deadly force to defend themselves "without retreat" in their homes, cars and workplaces.

"The right to defend oneself from an imminent act of harm should not only be clearly defined in Texas law, but is intuitive to human nature," Perry said on his Web site.

The new law, which takes affect on September 1, extends an exception to a statute that required a person to retreat in the face of a criminal attack. The exception was in the case of an intruder unlawfully entering a person's home.

The law extends a person's right to stand their ground beyond the home to vehicles and workplaces, allowing the reasonable use of deadly force, the governor's office said.

The reasonable use of lethal force will be allowed if an intruder is:

# Committing certain violent crimes, such as murder or sexual assault, or is attempting to commit such crimes

# Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place

# Unlawfully trying to remove a person from a protected place.

The law also provides civil immunity for a person who lawfully slays an intruder or attacker in such situations.

Texas joins several other states including Florida that have or are considering similar laws.

Sympathy for violent offenders and criminals in general runs low in Texas, underscored by its busy death row. The state leads the United States in executions with 388 since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976 by the US Supreme Court.

A conservative political outlook and widespread fondness for hunting also means Texans are a well-armed people capable of defending themselves with deadly force.

It is easy to acquire guns over the counter in Texas and lawful to carry a concealed handgun with a permit.

[ManDownUnder]

They're just cost cutting... the 'lectric chair costs a fortune to run...

[Karma]

Can you imagine it... oh I didn't mean to kill my husband, but he was walking around downstairs without the light on and I thought he was a burglar.

Only in america.

[Dave Lobster]

What an odd thought.. people without a criminal record carrying guns. It'll never catch on..

[scumdog]

Can you imagine it... oh I didn't mean to kill my husband, but he was walking around downstairs without the light on and I thought he was a burglar.

Only in america.

Yup, sounds way worse than the NZ "I knew it was my baby but I thought I'd bash it to death anyway" huh?

[ManDownUnder]

What an odd thought.. people without a criminal record carrying guns. It'll never catch on..

Could even escalate into
"Before I break into that place, I'd better make sure the gun's loaded and handy"

naaaaaaa - that'd never happen either

[placidfemme]

I think thats a great law... your never truley "free" unless you can defend yourself no matter what...

Sure it could be used in a bad way (opps I shot my hubby etc) but still...

[MSTRS]

What a wonderful piece of law....any hope of getting that tacked on as an amendment to Bradford's bill??

[ArcherWC]

What a wonderful piece of law....any hope of getting that tacked on as an amendment to Bradford's bill??
No smacking, but shooting is ok LOL

[idb]

Oo....oo...oo...!!!

[Quartermile]

I like the bit about defend your car, I guess that includes bike, take care of all the faggots with sticky fingers and oooooooh heres a bike I'll sit on it:yes:

[MSTRS]

No smacking, but shooting is ok LOL

Yep. Nature at work, in the sense that if one thing is removed, then another will take it's place. Has a certain charm, eh?

[Karma]

Yup, sounds way worse than the NZ "I knew it was my baby but I thought I'd bash it to death anyway" huh?

Hey, if they're killing themselves then sooner or later there won't be any of them left. That's Darwinism in action for you.

[jrandom]

I'd move to Texas already if everything else about it wasn't so fucked up.

Pity.

[sunhuntin]

sounds good to me! the way things are here, thew crim has all the rights, and the victim just gets shit on. self defence is "illegal" here. :angry:

[SlashWylde]

I think thats a great law... your never truley "free" unless you can defend yourself no matter what...

Some would say that argument dictates a perpetual state of fear, which means ipso facto you are not free...

The only good gun is... is... oh that's right, I forgot. There aren't any good guns.

[skelstar]

Stupid idea :weird:

Its a means to an end, not a solution to crime control.

[surfer]

If you are on the recieving end of a violent crime nice to know that you can defend yourself and not go to prison for it.

However, imagine losing it and giving in to road rage urge at a useless turd in a car. The useless turd instead of aplogising shoots you and says, "well I made a driving mistake but they were threatening to kill me for it so I defended myself." Who is in the poo now? Where does it end? Lets all carry a gun or big knife and find out?

Agree with the previous comment on Darwinism here.

Having had my house robbed in the past I'd like the opportunity to meet the low life whislt they were robbing the place and dish out some justice. Not sure I'd want to top them though.

[sunhuntin]

The only good gun is... is... oh that's right, I forgot. There aren't any good guns.


all guns are good. just when they are in bad hands do they become dangerous. i can guarantee, if i owned a gun, it would not be fired at any living thing: only targets. so therefore, a good gun, because of a good owner. guns dont shoot people. people shoot people with guns.

[jrandom]

There aren't any good guns.

[rolls eyes]

You gotta be trolling, right?

Should I assume you're not, and tear you a new arsehole with a spot of finely-wielded rhetoric?

Please advise.

[0arbreaka]

The only good gun is... is... oh that's right, I forgot. There aren't any good guns.

hippy:doobey:

[Lias]

hippy:doobey:
He's got the hair for it too :-P

Hes far too much of a metalhead to be a true hippy thou :-)

[Macktheknife]

See I don't have a problem with that law, but that is only because I know how to handle a gun, identify my target and hit what I aim for. I do not have the same confidence in the skills of many others.
I do believe however that in NZ we should have immunity from prosecution if we find someone in our home and proceed to beat the crap out of the scum, we deserve that much at least.

[Matt Bleck]

My boss tryed to make me work late, so I blew his head off!!!

[Dave Lobster]

I do believe however that in NZ we should have immunity from prosecution if we find someone in our home and proceed to beat the crap out of the scum, we deserve that much at least.

Presumably, there's a political party that would adopt this stance? Or don't any of them stand for what the people want?

[Macktheknife]

Presumably, there's a political party that would adopt this stance? Or don't any of them stand for what the people want?

HA! What a ridiculous suggestion, what the people want!
As if they even know what they want, that is what politicians are for man, to tell them what is good for them and make them want it.

[Lias]

HA! What a ridiculous suggestion, what the people want!
As if they even know what they want, that is what politicians are for man, to tell them what is good for them and make them want it.

I think most of ouor current political parties embrace the idea that if you catch someone break him into your house, you should handover all your posessions, let him rape your wife and daughter(s), and then he should get government counselling to deal with the stresses in his life that caused him to lash out against the colonial opressers in this fashion, a benefit higher than the average wage, and reperations for 100's of years of the man oppressing him.

Cynical? who me.. never..

[Lias]

LOL having just read my last post out to my work colleagues, I've been informed that I missed a few things..

Apparently we should also beg the badman to rape our wives and daughters, and also bend over to be shafted by them as well.

Apparently I'm not the only cynical one :-)

[The Pastor]

I'd move to texas if I wanted a fat woman and had a huge dislike for corners.

[Swoop]

Presumably, there's a political party that would adopt this stance? Or don't any of them stand for what the people want?
Libertarianz?
Act?

[slowpoke]

Yep, good ol' septic tanks treating the symptoms instead of the disease.
Fucked up low life's or not, I don't want to shoot someone over a TV....and I don't want to risk being shot coming in late from the pub, or some kid being shot just 'cos they snuck out at night to swap spit with their new boy or girlfriend. Or a plumber/sparkie/locksmith/pizza delivery is called out in the evening and knocks on the door of the wrong house, no answer, so goes around the back......
As for the Texan's and their zealous use of the death penalty: a US school ran an exercise where SCHOOL CHILDREN investigated the cases of death row inmates and found evidence that categorically proved several inmates had been wrongly convicted. "Justice system" my arse....and you want us to go down the same path....?
In my experience those people who most want guns/power are the people who should be least trusted with them/it.

[SPman]

As for the Texan's and their zealous use of the death penalty: a US school ran an exercise where SCHOOL CHILDREN investigated the cases of death row inmates and found evidence that categorically proved several inmates had been wrongly convicted. "Justice system" my arse....and you want us to go down the same path....?
In my experience those people who most want guns/power are the people who should be least trusted with them/it.
George Bush is a Texan!

'nuff said.........

[Waylander]

You mean it wasn't legal before?



As for the Texan's and their zealous use of the death penalty: a US school ran an exercise where SCHOOL CHILDREN investigated the cases of death row inmates and found evidence that categorically proved several inmates had been wrongly convicted. "Justice system" my arse....and you want us to go down the same path....?
In my experience those people who most want guns/power are the people who should be least trusted with them/it.
Don't you know everyone in prison is innocent? Just ask them. They'll tell you all about being frammed and what not.

[Guitana]

I can just see it now Texans running to the local gunshop to buy the biggest guns they can lay their sweaty paws on so they can shoot a burglar!!!
This can only mean one thing in order to reach your weapon quickly enough when disturbed in the middle of the night you will have to keep it close at hand and loaded!! HHMMMM I can see little timmy in mum and dads room playing cops and robbers with his pal from next door and coming across dads loaded .50 calibre desert eagle and redecorating the bedroom with his play pals brains!!!! Just another gungho law to help the gun manufacturers sell their latest killing machine!!!!

[Skyryder]

Just plain dumb. No it's even dumber than dumb. Asinine comes to mind.

Skyryrder

[Lias]

Just plain dumb. No it's even dumber than dumb. Asinine comes to mind.

Skyryrder

I can honestly say I simply cannot understand anyone who thinks its NOT ok to defend your family and posessions with deadly force.

All I'll say is never try to break into my house, NZ laws or not.

[Street Gerbil]

In well-armed societies people tend to develop natural respect to each other. In Israel, where probably 70% of the population possess firearms, violent crimes are unheard of. Strict licensing laws ensure that all legal gun owners are properly trained which keeps firearm related accidents at a minimum (you need to re-license annually and that involves a full day of practice at the firing range). Apparently when a crook considers breaking (or not) into an apartment, the thing going through his mind is not about checking his sidearm. It is rather "what if on the other side of that door there is a bored to half death 18 year old kid with an M16 or Uzi and half a dozen of spare clips? Is whatever loot I can grab worth this?"...
Unfortunately this rule does not apply to car thieves, however car theft has diminished dramatically since the erection of the separation barrier.

[slowpoke]

I can honestly say I simply cannot understand anyone who thinks its NOT ok to defend your family and posessions with deadly force.

All I'll say is never try to break into my house, NZ laws or not.

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life?

Ok, lets discuss the actual mechanic's of the situation: So how are you going to store your weapon so it's of actual use to you in the event of an unwelcome visitor? Are you gonna keep it locked up in a safe place, unloaded, with the ammunition locked in a separate place? That's a fair bit of time and noise for the intruder to come looking for you, and you KNOW he's gonna be armed 'cos he KNOW'S you are gonna be armed. Rest assurred some dude high on drugs and adrenalin reaction time is gonna be a lot quicker than you when you're half asleep. The ol' gun cabinet in the bedroom is just the most romantic accoutrement too ain't it?

Or is this gonna be the loaded weapon under the bed scenario? Ready for the young ankle biters to put their mate's insides on the outside...

I can recall reading that the incidence of spousal murder also goes up exponentially if there is a gun in the house as (usually) Dad loses his rag and blows away Mum ("She just wouldn't listen...") rather than "just" giving her some "physical re-education".

How many innocent people are allowed to be killed for every bad guy that meets a sticky end? What is an acceptable number? You need to decide now, 'cos with a law like this it's guaranteed that innocent people will die.

[mikey62]

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life?

Ok, lets discuss the actual mechanic's of the situation: So how are you going to store your weapon so it's of actual use to you in the event of an unwelcome visitor? Are you gonna keep it locked up in a safe place, unloaded, with the ammunition locked in a separate place? That's a fair bit of time and noise for the intruder to come looking for you, and you KNOW he's gonna be armed 'cos he KNOW'S you are gonna be armed. Rest assurred some dude high on drugs and adrenalin reaction time is gonna be a lot quicker than you when you're half asleep. The ol' gun cabinet in the bedroom is just the most romantic accoutrement too ain't it?

Or is this gonna be the loaded weapon under the bed scenario? Ready for the young ankle biters to put their mate's insides on the outside...

I can recall reading that the incidence of spousal murder also goes up exponentially if there is a gun in the house as (usually) Dad loses his rag and blows away Mum ("She just wouldn't listen...") rather than "just" giving her some "physical re-education".

How many innocent people are allowed to be killed for every bad guy that meets a sticky end? What is an acceptable number? You need to decide now, 'cos with a law like this it's guaranteed that innocent people will die.

Dude, check your signature line then would you. You're carrying on like a tree-hugger but your line says take the warning lables off things and let the problem sort itself out. That’s what they’re doing DOH !

[Skyryder]

I can honestly say I simply cannot understand anyone who thinks its NOT ok to defend your family and posessions with deadly force.

All I'll say is never try to break into my house, NZ laws or not.

ASININE

1. foolish, unintelligent, or silly; stupid: It is surprising that supposedly intelligent people can make such asinine statements.

[Latin asinīnus, of an ass.

That you should think I would want to break into your house. And if I did you would never hear me.

Skyryder

[SlashWylde]

hippy:doobey:

Fuckin A!!

[SlashWylde]

[rolls eyes]

You gotta be trolling, right?

Should I assume you're not, and tear you a new arsehole with a spot of finely-wielded rhetoric?

Please advise.

Not trolling no, more tongue in cheek. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised by any comments that come my way in the context of this thread.

More seriously, I simply believe that humans having the ability to point guns at each other is fundamentally a very bad thing.

Furthermore I think any comment advocating the use of deadly force to protect family and property is over the top. Such an attitude places one in the position of judge, jury and executioner in the few seconds it takes to sight a perceived threat, aim and fire.

Not saying one shouldn't protect what one holds dear when possible, but shoot to kill?...Not good.

[SlashWylde]

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life? ...

Yeah, 'poke you put it better than I could at this point.

[Mr Merde]

all guns are good. just when they are in bad hands do they become dangerous. i can guarantee, if i owned a gun, it would not be fired at any living thing: only targets. so therefore, a good gun, because of a good owner. guns dont shoot people. people shoot people with guns.

A voice of reason not emotion. Refreshing and most welcome. Years ago I had this dicussion with a friends partner. She believed that guns killed.

I went to my safe, took out a .45 Automatic. Loaded it and placed it on the coffe table. I then waited for the pistol to jump up and start shooting. When it didnt I unloaded the pistol made it safe and handed it to her (Nova) to inspect. Even then the gun didnt react. It stayed inert and unthreatening.

This simple demonstration convinced Nova that guns werent dangerous, just those who mishandle them.

SHe eventually got her own licence and pistol, she they proceeded to become very proficient in its use and won a lot of club competitions.

Given the choice of having to rely upon third party organisations to protect me or mine, or having the opportunity and means to legally do so myself I know which way I would go.

The police forces of the world are not proactive. They cant stop someone from attacking you, they can only clean up after the event. There is no way I want to ever be just another case number that cant answer back.

[Mr Merde]

........
Not saying one shouldn't protect what one holds dear when possible, but shoot to kill?...Not good.

Shoot to wound?

Shoot to frighten?

Shoot to intimidate?

Takes a lot of training to be able to do this.

In the heat of the moment and with the fear of iminent harm to oneself or loved ones I defy anyone who says they wouldnt resort to violence of some sort. The last such person was nailed to two bits of wood 2000 years ago acording to the christians.

[Skyryder]

There is no way I want to ever be just another case number that cant answer back.


Famous last words

[Mr Merde]

Famous last words

Nice art work.

Bling sent.

5 assumptions that may be disputed

1) I drink
2) I drink to excess
3) I have a wife
4) I have a home
5) I choose to be buried or even remembered

:dodge:


MR :shit:

[Quartermile]

WTF, would a women be doing with a gun?, shouln't she have a rolling pin:dodge:

The wife would probably just shoot him for being drunk:yes:

[Dave Lobster]

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life?



Oh yes. I've spent thirty years collecting my CDs (CD's for the illiterate). Even if I only had one CD in the collection, it would be worth more to me than a thief's life.
A thief leaves his 'rights' at the pavement when he comes onto someone else's property. There is an easy way to avoid getting hurt/maimed/killed. DON'T FUCKING STEAL PEOPLE'S STUFF. If you want CDs and DVDs, fucking buy them! Get a job and save your money like everyone else.

[scumdog]

I'd move to texas if I wanted a fat woman and had a huge dislike for corners.

Or you could move to Palmerston North.....

[scumdog]

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life?

So you know that your TV or CD collection is ALL they're after ...how?

[MSTRS]

So your TV or CD collection is worth more than someone elses life?



Yep. They're mine. Why should I respect someone's life when they don't respect what's mine?
If they asked nicely, chances are I'd make them a copy...ooops, I mean 'back-up'...but if they break in etc, then they leave their 'rights' at the boundary of my property.

[Pixie]

However, imagine losing it and giving in to road rage urge at a useless turd in a car. The useless turd instead of aplogising shoots you and says, "well I made a driving mistake but they were threatening to kill me for it so I defended myself."

So you are arguing for the right to vent your anger over trivialities,with impunity?

[slowpoke]

Dude, check your signature line then would you. You're carrying on like a tree-hugger but your line says take the warning lables off things and let the problem sort itself out. That’s what they’re doing DOH !

Haha, I'm so stoopid I don't even know how to swim hence I'm at the shallow end of the gene pool....but I've still got the basic threat instinct that tells me this kind of legislation will create as many problems as it solves. I fear that Mr/Ms Stoopid will "accidently" kill Mr/Ms Not So Stoopid whereas Mr/Ms Not So Stoopid will be smart enough not to kill Mr/Ms Stoopid, leading to Devolution not Evolution.

Desperate people putting themselves in the position of invading someones' home and getting shot on sight is bad enough (knowingly putting themselves at risk) but the accidental deaths (gun accidently discharged ie kids playing) or manslaughter (deliberately shooting, but oops, wrong person) etc etc that arise are just unacceptable.

Do you seriously want Texas style laws? It's bad enough having knives pulled outside pubs and nightclubs, and you want guns brought into the situation?

Here's another hypothetical: what about shoplifting? A lot of deli's are attached to homes, can a deli owner shoot someone for stealing a pack of potato chips? This is Texas remember, the person could very well be legally carrying a handgun, are you gonna confront them? They have stolen from you, they have come onto your property with no thought other than to steal from you and your family. You're thinking "These pricks are costing me thousands..." He's walking out the door with his prize, "Hey!!", you confront him, he whirls around, abuses you, then reaches for his...BLAM! He falls to the ground....holding his wallet.....(Tell me honestly it will NEVER happen)

With this legislation every time an accidental killing, manslaughter or spousal murder occured due to having a gun that wouldn't otherwise have been available then the people who voted for this would be partially responsible. To put it another way: ordinary, innocent people would die so you could feel safe. Where is the logic in that?

[Dave Lobster]

How many innocent people are allowed to be killed for every bad guy that meets a sticky end? What is an acceptable number? You need to decide now, 'cos with a law like this it's guaranteed that innocent people will die.

How do you know this? Are there stats available from states where this is already the law?

Don't 'innocent' people die now?




imagine losing it and giving in to road rage urge at a useless turd in a car. The useless turd instead of aplogising shoots you and says, "well I made a driving mistake but they were threatening to kill me for it so I defended myself." Who is in the poo now? Where does it end? Lets all carry a gun or big knife and find out?


I've carried a knife in my car for the last fifteen years, and have never had the urge to take it out and use it. I dare say it would be the same with a firearm. Are you saying a law change would make me stab someone?





Having had my house robbed in the past I'd like the opportunity to meet the low life whislt they were robbing the place and dish out some justice. Not sure I'd want to top them though.

I would.

[slowpoke]

Oh yes. I've spent thirty years collecting my CDs (CD's for the illiterate). Even if I only had one CD in the collection, it would be worth more to me than a thief's life.
A thief leaves his 'rights' at the pavement when he comes onto someone else's property. There is an easy way to avoid getting hurt/maimed/killed. DON'T FUCKING STEAL PEOPLE'S STUFF. If you want CDs and DVDs, fucking buy them! Get a job and save your money like everyone else.

So how many CD's have you, or anyone else for that matter, copied unlawfully?
Ok, I get it, it's ok to steal so long as you don't actually enter anyones property right?

[davereid]

The worst thing about firearms is they they give females, the elderly, and the physically weak the ability to defend themselves.

Ya can't have that can ya !

Leave the ability to use force to young fit males. That will make the world a better place.

[Dave Lobster]

So how many CDs have you, or anyone else for that matter, copied unlawfully?

None. I own NO copied CDs or DVDs. I've copied some of my records onto CD, but I've bought the original and a lot of my LPs aren't available on CD anyway.

I may be a lot of things, but I do try not to be a hypocrite.

[slowpoke]

Yep. They're mine. Why should I respect someone's life when they don't respect what's mine?
If they asked nicely, chances are I'd make them a copy...ooops, I mean 'back-up'...but if they break in etc, then they leave their 'rights' at the boundary of my property.

So you are allowed to steal from the music/movie distributors....but no one is allowed to steal from you? By your own definition the distributors have got every right to go medievil on your ass....

[slowpoke]

None. I own NO copied CDs or DVDs. I've copied some of my records onto CD, but I've bought the original and a lot of my LPs aren't available on CD anyway.

I may be a lot of things, but I do try not to be a hypocrite.

I take my hat off to you sir, but the rest of the general population is shifting uncomfortably in their seat. If we bring in capital punisment for theft you are going to be a lonely man.......

[MSTRS]

So you are allowed to steal from the music/movie distributors....but no one is allowed to steal from you? By your own definition the distributors have got every right to go medievil on your ass....

I did say 'back-up' and I do have/paid for the original. Besides, I am allowed to copy what I already own. The grey area comes in where I 'may' be classed as distributing, but then I am not making money from that act...
As far as the second scenario goes, unless I break into their warehouse to take a physical CD from the shelf, the law will not give them that right.

[sunhuntin]

agreed with mstrs... they enter my property, they have lost all rights. same with the death penalty for murder and rape etc. once they have commited such crimes, they have lost the right to keep their own lives.

its unfair that we are not allowed to defend our property and lives. why should the hard working be made to give up items to theives? i had an old woman at work the other day, who was telling me shell only put $20 petrol in her car due to losing over $100 worth to theives who siphoned it. she would have been over 60...likely not working. why should she have to put up with losing that much gas to low lifes whove never worked a day in their lives?

[Dave Lobster]

why should the hard working be made to give up items to theives? i had an old woman at work the other day, who was telling me shell only put $20 petrol in her car due to losing over $100 worth to theives who siphoned it. she would have been over 60...likely not working. why should she have to put up with losing that much gas to low lifes whove never worked a day in their lives?

Its called socialism. In a socialist's eyes, the people with too much money are to redistribute it to those who haven't. If some have to steal for that to happen, so be it.
If she can afford to put $100 of fuel in her car, a socialist will see her as rich and she deserves to have it stolen.

That is why rich people pay more tax than people who live on the state.

[toymachine]

What a bollocks law.

One word. Escalation.

[SPman]

I got no worry with people having guns - as long as they have proper full training in their use, misuse and the responsibilities that go with them - with regular refresher courses.

I think a well armed, well trained citizenry, is a desirable thing, especially with the way governments are going, these days.

Oops - isn't that one of the basics of the American constitution?

[sunhuntin]

Its called socialism. In a socialist's eyes, the people with too much money are to redistribute it to those who haven't. If some have to steal for that to happen, so be it.
If she can afford to put $100 of fuel in her car, a socialist will see her as rich and she deserves to have it stolen.

That is why rich people pay more tax than people who live on the state.

the petrol was put in there over a period of time, and siphoned each time. im pretty sure she would have been on a pension. and for her age group, she would have worked hard every day of her adult life.
why should it be "ok" for someone to steal from such a person? a person whos worked hard, paid her taxes, raised her kids into decent people.
why should someone with no intention of working hard 1 day in his life, not paying any taxes, and producing but not raising children, have more rights?

whats the point of working hard these days? my father works 7 days a week, and does countless hours in that week. he looks 10 years older than he is. i hate the fact he has to work. and for what? punks living off his taxes getting everything for nothing their entire lives? murderers and rapists living in relative luxury for 7 years, while their victims suffer mentally or rot in silence till the end of time?

its obvious that life is almost better on the dole, and you get more benefits for just being on a benefit. what will the govt do in 20 years when todays dole kids have dole kids of their own, and the majority of the population is not working [due to being raised on the dole, and having no sense of a work ethic?]
girl i used to flat with... her and her partner, and their baby. girls mother was on the dole... so was her father. both her and her partner are on the dole...and their daughter will be the same. the partner had a shot at a well paying job and turned it down.
i was the only one working... would get home to find the flat a pig sty, with dogs, shitty nappies, filthy plates and cups on the floor and in the sink. not to mention clothing everywhere.

[Dave Lobster]

the petrol was put in there over a period of time, and siphoned each time. im pretty sure she would have been on a pension. and for her age group, she would have worked hard every day of her adult life.
why should it be "ok" for someone to steal from such a person? a person whos worked hard, paid her taxes, raised her kids into decent people.
why should someone with no intention of working hard 1 day in his life, not paying any taxes, and producing but not raising children, have more rights?

whats the point of working hard these days? my father works 7 days a week, and does countless hours in that week. he looks 10 years older than he is. i hate the fact he has to work. and for what? punks living off his taxes getting everything for nothing their entire lives? murderers and rapists living in relative luxury for 7 years, while their victims suffer mentally or rot in silence till the end of time?

its obvious that life is almost better on the dole, and you get more benefits for just being on a benefit. what will the govt do in 20 years when todays dole kids have dole kids of their own, and the majority of the population is not working [due to being raised on the dole, and having no sense of a work ethic?]


That's my point..

I'm not a fucking socialist.

[mstriumph]

.........................

whats the point of working hard these days? my father works 7 days a week, and does countless hours in that week. he looks 10 years older than he is. i hate the fact he has to work. and for what? punks living off his taxes getting everything for nothing their entire lives? murderers and rapists living in relative luxury for 7 years, while their victims suffer mentally or rot in silence till the end of time?

its obvious that life is almost better on the dole, and you get more benefits for just being on a benefit. what will the govt do in 20 years when todays dole kids have dole kids of their own, and the majority of the population is not working [due to being raised on the dole, and having no sense of a work ethic?]
girl i used to flat with... her and her partner, and their baby. girls mother was on the dole... so was her father. both her and her partner are on the dole...and their daughter will be the same. the partner had a shot at a well paying job and turned it down.
i was the only one working... would get home to find the flat a pig sty, with dogs, shitty nappies, filthy plates and cups on the floor and in the sink. not to mention clothing everywhere.

Cheer up, Gal ...... :hug: i understand your frustration

but you can only choose for you and your dependants - nobody else

it's your Dad's choice to work as he does - mebbe he gets something from what he does besides money?

it's the majority electorate's choice to vote in a way which allows soft sentencing for crims and abuse of welfare

and it was your choice to flat with a bunch of people who's lifestyle choice was so different from yours [from the sound of it, you came to that conclusion too - and moved on]

there's a whole HEAP of stuff wrong with life - yep ..................................
..... but while there're friends, roads, bikes and sunshine i guess i'll stick with it:sunny:

[B]oh - and mangoes :love: - did i mention mangoes....?

[Dave Lobster]

It's the majority of the electorate's choice to vote in a way which allows soft sentencing for crims and abuse of welfare [because that is what it is - to allow welfare to become a lifestyle instead of a safety net]


Is there an option? Is there a political party that advocates the correct disciplining of criminals (apart from dangerous b'stards like speeders)? Is there a party that will stamp on welfare cheats? I'm pretty sure that if any such party were to exist, they'd be slammed as nazis by the media, and the other (liberal) parties.

[jrandom]

Is there a party that will stamp on welfare cheats?

I posit for you the hypothesis that zero-tolerance policing of welfare 'cheating' would cost more than allowing it to continue at its current level, and I would suggest that that is the reason that such a policy has never been seriously mooted.

[Ixion]

Its called socialism. In a socialist's eyes, the people with too much money are to redistribute it to those who haven't. ..

No it's not. And no they aren't


That's my point..

I'm not a fucking socialist.


I am. Well, not a fucking one as often as I'd like, but that's another matter.


Is there an option? Is there a political party that advocates the correct disciplining of criminals (apart from dangerous b'stards like speeders)? Is there a party that will stamp on welfare cheats?..

Yep. Vote Communist. Welfare is for workers, not shirkers. And those who aren't willing to make what contribution they can to society have no right to expect to remain part of it.

[Ixion]

I posit for you the hypothesis that zero-tolerance policing of welfare 'cheating' would cost more than allowing it to continue at its current level, and I would suggest that that is the reason that such a policy has never been seriously mooted.

Yes it has. By the first labour government (who were Socialists unlike the current lot, butr were not in any way liberal), for one. There is noone who hates the bludger more than the worker. It is the liberal intelligentsia who oppose the idea that everyone, no exceptions, must contribute to society to the extent of his abilities. Which is one reaso n why the said liberal intelligentsia are amongst the first targets for "reeducation" come the revolution.

[mstriumph]

Is there an option? Is there a political party that advocates the correct disciplining of criminals (apart from dangerous b'stards like speeders)? Is there a party that will stamp on welfare cheats? .................

this is where the hard work comes in ........

have you spoken to your local candidates, members? have you communicated to them your disquiet with the way that things currently are? have you asked them what their/their party's stance is on the things that you feel are wrong with the current system?

the unfortunate truth is that people get the government they deserve ....

[Skyryder]

That is why rich people pay more tax than people who live on the state.

Don't know which planet you live on but it's not the same as mine. Rich people do not pay tax. They pay accountants to avoid it.

Skyryder

[jrandom]

Vote Communist.

Vote Communist?

Why, yes, of course you may appropriate and redistribute the profits of my new tech startup...

... from my cold, dead hands.

[Skyryder]

That's my point..

I'm not a fucking socialist.

I have rapidly come to the conclusion in your world everybody is fucking something :love: except you. :rofl: :rofl:

Skyryder

[Ixion]

Vote Communist?

Why, yes, of course you may appropriate and redistribute the profits of my new tech startup...

... from my cold, dead hands.

Well, yes, that DOES often go with the territory.

[jrandom]

There is noone who hates the bludger more than the worker.

As a matter of principle, it is unarguable that zero tolerance for welfare abuse is obligatory.

As a matter of economic pragmatism, however, I suspect that a welfare state must always strike a medium of compromise, as we have here and now, that falls short of the ideal.

[jrandom]

Well, yes, that DOES often go with the territory.

I know, and I have made peace with that fact.

I have also started buying guns.

Some edited non-silly addition is in order here, I think...

You see, one difference between the agrico-industrial society of Marx's time, and the revolutions of technology since, is that significant profit can be derived without exploitation of workers.

I give you, for example, my licencing of software that I shall develop. The economics of its potential profitability are nonlinear, and not dependent upon labour other than my own and that of my investment partners. Marx's model breaks when applied to my boundary conditions.

[mstriumph]

I posit for you the hypothesis that zero-tolerance policing of welfare 'cheating' would cost more than allowing it to continue at its current level, and I would suggest that that is the reason that such a policy has never been seriously mooted.

you are probably right - and that's just one of the things that is rotton with the current system ........... and it's ALL the fault of those framing the legislation concerned

legislation which cannot be audited/ policed is SLOPPY legislation ...... and those that set such legislation in place deserve our wrath because it's OUR money they are wasting, not 'government' money 'cause governments don't HAVE money except in trust for 'we, the people'.

welfare is meant to be a safety-net
any government which puts in place legislation that permits it to become a lifestyle option should be ..... hell, i don't know, put to the sword or torn apart by red-hot pinchers or sumthin ............

if they won't do what you want, at least chuck the bastards out

but citizens who take advantage of their sloppiness can't really be said to be 'cheating' as such, can they?

[mstriumph]

As a matter of principle, it is unarguable that zero tolerance for welfare abuse is obligatory.

As a matter of economic pragmatism, however, I suspect that a welfare state must always strike a medium of compromise, as we have here and now, that falls short of the ideal.

granted

but not, dear god please, NOT as far short as the system currently does :crybaby:

[Mr Merde]

....

the unfortunate truth is that people get the government they deserve ....


This is so true.

WHat was the turnout at the last general election?

What about the last local body elections?

Most people are apathetic and deserve everything they get.

This is why those minority groups seem to get everything they demand. They are vocal enough for the powers that be to take notice of. The silent majority are just that, silent. Because they very rarely show discent to anything their government does, their government gets used to riding roughshod over them and discounting the wishes of the majority. Except at election time where once again they dust of all the old platitudes, make the same old speeches and make the same promises, all in aid of being re elected so that they can be the masters of our existence rather than the servants they were elected to be.

Since being back in NZ I have noticed that the "average" kiwi is extremely apathetic. They talk the talk but dont have the bottle or bollocks to back it up.

We all know we are being shafted by a bunch of self serving sychophantic arseholes but we cant really be bothered trying to change it.

Case in point, this anti smacking bill. Proposed by a person who has never been elected and doesnt have an electorate to answer to. Talk in the street and on this board shows massive disgust but very few people getting off their arses to do fuck all abvout it.

Criminals get sentences that are so minimal that most kiwis think of the justice system as a joke, wat happens? Sweet fuck all. The powers know thgat we will just go nalong with them.

If something does stir the silent majority, and occasionally this does happen, our masters find some trivial piece of nonsense and boost it out of all proportion, thereby difusing the emotions of "the majority"

I could rant for a long while so I will cut short here in case I offend the sensibilities of this group. Its all about standing up, discovering the backbone you were born with, and exercising your right to express your views. The "government" doesnt want you to do this as they may actually have to listen and work for your benifit.

Rant over.

MR:shit:

[Street Gerbil]

Yep. Vote Communist. Welfare is for workers, not shirkers. And those who aren't willing to make what contribution they can to society have no right to expect to remain part of it.

I am sorry but your Political Economics is a bit rusty.
What you describe is a textbook socialism. A communism, per Marx, is when one contributes to the society as much as he can and gets as much as he needs.

[mstriumph]

Shoot to wound?

Shoot to frighten?

Shoot to intimidate?

Takes a lot of training to be able to do this.

In the heat of the moment and with the fear of iminent harm to oneself or loved ones I defy anyone who says they wouldnt resort to violence of some sort. The last such person was nailed to two bits of wood 2000 years ago acording to the christians.

they did that to GANDHI????? :gob:

[Mr Merde]

they did that to GANDHI????? :gob:

I stand corrected.

From reading, I gather Ghandi wasnt the perfect saint that history has painted him to be. His personal life wasnt exeplery.

Disregarding this he is one of the best of us to emerge for a long time.

[mstriumph]

i rather liked Fish's 'cold, dead hands' comment ............

i have come to terms with the fact that, irrespective of whatever the authorities 'should' do, when it comes to defending me and mine they'll be out at my place 3 hours after they've been called to an emergency and 2.75 hours after the malfactors have departed triumphantly bearing off the silver and [hopefully] the cat .............

so, unfair, unjust and downright IRRITATING as it may be, i will just have to look out for myself, won't i?

.......... and use that 2.75 hours to bury the bodies :innocent:

[SPman]

Couldn't resist this link
http://www.chuckhawks.com/motorcycle_firearms.htm
remember kiddies
If you decide to fire, FIRE AT THE DRIVER, NOT THE CAR!

[scumdog]

I've read all the above and they are all very valid comments re shooting offender and the threat to society that sort of freedom entails etc etc


BUT I'll still shoot any bastard that threatens me, my family, my property (down to my Glen Campbell CD's).

[idb]

I've read all the above and they are all very valid comments re shooting offender and the threat to society that sort of freedom entails etc etc


BUT I'll still shoot any bastard that threatens me, my family, my property (down to my Glen Campbell CD's).

Glen Campbell's out on CD now????!!!!

[scumdog]

Glen Campbell's out on CD now????!!!!

Yup, the supply of 8-track tapes has dried up - and he ain't on wax cylinders neither!!

[idb]

Yup, the supply of 8-track tapes has dried up - and he ain't wax cylinders neither!!

That reminds me.....I really should get my cylinders waxed....it's getting a bit embarrassing to have them out in public.