Should 4x4's be taxed higher?

[gamgee]

#1 they are heavier so wear the roads out more

#2 in an accident they cause more serious injuries to whatever they hit (pedestrians other car occupants motorcylists etc.) or if they roll over the occupants so the ACC component should be higher as it is with motorbikes

#3 government should be encouraging more economical forms of transport so should introduce a pollution tax

of course this shouldn't apply to farm vehicles, and there should be exemption where there is a clear case for the owner needing a 4x4, but should be used to discourage the use of SUV's around towns

[Hitcher]

Tax them out of existence. They're trucks, not cars. People should have to get special licenses to drive them. Downtown areas and parking facilities should have a steel bar set at about 1.8m high across the entranceway. Hah. And as for bull-bars, they should be illegal. If SUVs weren't generally driven by kindy mums they would be symptomatic of VSP Disease. Apart from the small ones that are driven by hairdressers.

[sunhuntin]

im all for it. hate the damn things. when they angle park, you cant see past to exit. you get a faceful of exhaust when stopped behind them, and DONT even get me started on CHECKING THE OIL AND WATER!!! those things were NOT designed for short asses.

[onearmedbandit]

#1 They pay more tax through higher petrol usage.
#2 They save money on the health system by better protecting the occupants inside, and ensure a continuing supply for funeral houses for those outside of them.
#3 The government should not be involved in such decisions!

LMFAO, lets see the fish bite now!

(btw, #2 was a pisstake, I have to go out now but couldn`t resist stirring the pot before I left!)

[Motu]

And the diesel's pay a high road user charge,regardless of size.I'm safe in my Pajero - I don't give a fuck about you so long as I survive.

[gamgee]

whats the point in posting a rark and telling everyone it's a rark?

[Hitcher]

Some people don't get sarcasm. Not unless it has a smilie...

[gamgee]

And the diesel's pay a high road user charge,regardless of size.I'm safe in my Pajero - I don't give a fuck about you so long as I survive.

and that is the number 1 reason to hate 4wd owners, it's all about number one, if everyone drove normal cars we would all be better off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXeKSDpFjlg
it's a case of the old prisoners dillema, we can all drive cars that will give us good protection in an nose to tail prang etc or some prat can go out and buy something that will probably kill the other party in a small accident

[Jantar]

A 4x4 is the most suitable cage for my use. And I don't want to own 2 cages.


#1 they are heavier so wear the roads out more
That is why I pay a higher RUC based on weight.


#2 in an accident they cause more serious injuries to whatever they hit (pedestrians other car occupants motorcylists etc.) or if they roll over the occupants so the ACC component should be higher as it is with motorbikes
No, they cause less injuries to the occupants. however I do agree that the ACC levy for all vehicles should be the same.


#3 government should be encouraging more economical forms of transport so should introduce a pollution tax What could be more economical than my 4x4 for towing the horse float, travelling to work in winter when it is snowing, towing the trailer around my paddocks, going to the city by cage 2 to 3 times a year?


of course this shouldn't apply to farm vehicles, and there should be exemption where there is a clear case for the owner needing a 4x4, but should be used to discourage the use of SUV's around towns Ahhh, you have almost redeemed yourself. The exemption should be in the licence requirements. Just lower the weight limits for requiring a HT licence to 2000 kg and no more problems.

[Jantar]

....They're trucks, not cars. People should have to get special licenses to drive them. .... I have no problem with this solution. Mine is insured as a light truck anyway.

[Motu]

and that is the number 1 reason to hate 4wd owners, it's all about number one, if everyone drove normal cars we would all be better off


If you don't look out for No1 you are dead....you ride a bike remember? If you don't ride for your own preservation you are dead.I don't give a fuck about you,if I survive any accident,bike,pedestrian,car or 4x4 I reckon I'm doing well.A 4x4 just ramps me up the survival list.

[Big Dave]

If you have a legitimate use, tow something, live up shit street, whatever, and they are the most appropriate vehicle - I'm glad it's you paying for the fuel - party on.

If you are in the thing because it's up high or you see it as some sort of status symbol or performance vehicle and it goes as far off road as by the beach a Kohe - yer a dick wasting resources when there are more appropriate solutions.

[Quasievil]

WTF, you in government or something, we Kiwis pay enough Tax thanks very much.
If they start taxing 4X4, then they will think mmmm that was easy, now what other group can we tax, I KNOW BIKES, they are represented in some stat somewhere , "LETS GET EM "

FUCKEN HELL !!


(spoken after getting 4 letters from IRD in one week, all wanting money for dufferent reasons )

[Big Dave]

NSW registration fees and taxes are calculated on gross vehicle weight. Works for me.

[dogsnbikes]

As 4x4 owner,I feel that the prices are high enoughwhen paying on gross weight ........as I live in country its a suitable cage for me and having a St Bernard in a toymota just doesn't work

I dont see the need of a 4x4 to get to the cuba street or queen street office as a necessity.......so I agree they have no place in the cities

and if people stopped driving there 4x4's as a WRX we would be better off but hey something has to give them thier ego boost :gob:

its something that needs to be educated into people and higher taxes just means more people dodging the system :shutup: so taxing isnt a solution

[Motu]

If you have a legitimate use, tow something, live up shit street, whatever, and they are the most appropriate vehicle - I'm glad it's you paying for the fuel - party on.


Defiantly the most appropriate vehicle for me,and for most other people who drive them too I expect.I put 100,000km on my Pajero in 2 1/2 years,mostly single occupant,mostly open road.....and compared to the NX Coupe I also have,they cost about the same to run.I have carried a shit load of stuff,including people...some of it was filthy,I have towed trailers loaded with various things,including motorcycles....some of them were filthy,it has also towed caravans and cars.I'm really grateful to the Pajero for putting in such hard work for me over a difficult period of my life,I really don't know what I would of done without it.It can go into retirement now,instead of 1,000km weeks it will be lucky to do 10km in a week now

I think people who can afford to buy bikes worth nearly $20,000 should be audited by the Inland Revenue weekly....

[gamgee]

As 4x4 owner,I feel that the prices are high enoughwhen paying on gross weight ........as I live in country its a suitable cage for me and having a St Bernard in a toymota just doesn't work


ever thought of a station wagon??

[Grahameeboy]

So do you include People Carriers too?

[Grahameeboy]

Do they wear roads out quicker. There are already new holes appearing in Esdmond Road.................maybe they should make better roads?

Anyway this is still a 3rd world country so what's wrong with 4X4's......

[Timber020]

I wouldnt tax 4wd's as a rule, I would be more inclined to tax vehicles at different weight limits. First 1000kgs and below, 1000 to 1500kgs, 1500 to 2000kgs etc etc. Id hate to think what my 4wd would cost tax wise.

They had a tax system in holland based on weight years back, a mate of mine had a VW and removed EVERYTHING when taking the car in and running on fumes.

[dogsnbikes]

ever thought of a station wagon??

Had station wagon but too small for dog and and crap traction on dirt tracks

[Motu]

I've got a van,and I think it does a better job of hauling loads than the Pajero,it's a real little workhorse....but it's not comfortable,and can get stuck on a flat lawn.Plus it's only a 2 seater.We've had stationwagons as family vehicles and they are great,no problem there.I really liked my Escort van,it was surprising what could fit in it,and it was fun to drive,but again only a 2 seater.The Pajero offers the comfort and versatility no other vehicle can.....I'll hang onto it a little longer.

[Ixion]

I will, indeed , take an entirely reverse position.

If you have a bike, what is the point of owning a "standard car" ? You can't get much more into it than the bike (especially with a side car). Not worth it. Whereas a 4x4 DOES give you options that the bike does not. Towing, lugging heeavy dirty stuff, carting 6 passengers etc. So it is worth owning a 4x4.

So for bikers , the logical combo is a bike plus a 4x4.

If you DON'T have a bike then of course you are an inferior species and your opinion does not count.

So all that is required is to make a class 6 licence a requirement for driving a 4x4. No problem for bikers, everybody else out. Sorted.

[slopster]

And as for fuel economy I used to have a 2.8L diesel bighorn that did over 1000km on 75L of diesel. Thats better economy then my gsxr gets!

[Jantar]

you must spread some reputation around before giving it to Ixion again

[Big Dave]

I think people who can afford to buy bikes worth nearly $20,000 should be audited by the Inland Revenue weekly....

I can afford bikes worth a lot more than that. Pay my GST bi-monthly too :innocent:

[Big Dave]

So for bikers , the logical combo is a bike plus a 4x4.

Sorted.


No fuckin' way. Big rolling tankers of things - I get sea sick in 'em. It has to be pissing down or no other option before I'll get in one.

A bike and another bike thanks.

[Ixion]

Well, I'm not saying a biker HAS to have a 4x4. But if you *do* want another vehicle beside the bike(s) , then a 4x4 makes far more sense than a car.

And only bikers can show a valid justification for a 4x4 , cos they are already doing their bit toward transportation efficiency.

[Delerium]

Food for thought for both sides of the fence here. I hate the bloody things in town. cant see around/through, studies have proven that the majority of owners are agressive males in their 30s (ie people that cant drive for shit and give you the finger after cutting you off) on the open road they dont handle as well as a car and never will, their design inherintly compromises their on road handling. yet uneducated poor quality nz drivers still drive them like they stole them and when they realise they dont pull as well as a car do dangerous things like overtaking on blind corners. By far the dangerous idiotic stuff I see on the road is by these vehicles.

However in saying that, I am heading into places like the kaimanwas, more and more doing deer hunting etc. Some places that I want to visit in the future require 4x4 access unless you want to walk another 5 or 6 hours. Looking at my options, I wanted a 4x4 station wagon, diesel and manual. guess what. they dont exist. next step is something like a subaru, which MAY be able to handle a little mud, things like riverbeds will shake it to pieces. Next option is a hilux or a navara. nope too expensive, they hold their value to well. Holden mazda or mitsi, no thanks, shite and ill end up walking the extra 5 or 6 hours anyway. So the only thing that I can afford that fills the requirements is something like an iszuzu mu. Bugger.

I have done a 4wd through NZDF, and I REALLY wouldnt want a petrol 4wd. after experiancing the abuse that is needed to get a vehicle in certain places, things like a subaru or even 4wd caldina which I was looking at would just destroy them. plus subarus etc dont come in diesel which is one of my requirements.

[Big Dave]

Well, I'm not saying a biker HAS to have a 4x4. But if you *do* want another vehicle beside the bike(s) , then a 4x4 makes far more sense than a car.

And only bikers can show a valid justification for a 4x4 , cos they are already doing their bit toward transportation efficiency.

Now yer talkin' - What about for every motorcycle you own you get a rebate.

It will be like child support in Oz - bang out enough and the child support adds up to a working wage.

We could do it with bikes.

[Ixion]

Uh, well there is a certain KBer who was caught shagging his bike. Up the zorst I believe. But I doubt the episode was productive of progeny. Would it have little mini-motos? Still if you wish to try yourself, go for it.

[Motu]

If I only bought brand new bikes and traded then every 2nd year I could live with just a bike - but I like older bikes,and I pull them apart,and I collect parts I ''just might need one day',and I find other things that ''might just come in handy''.I'm a pack rat...I gotta have something to cart my ''new'' treasure home with.Done the carry the engine on the bike thing....then I discovered cars.

As a rider of dualpurpose bikes since the very beginning (1971) I'm surprised it took me so long to find a dualpurpose car....it's a bloody good find.

[Dave Lobster]

No car wears the road out. They're just not heavy enough. If the roads are being worn out by cars here, they're obviously being made shit to start with.

Is a 4x4 Fiat Panda a danger to other road users? What about a 4x4 Audi TT? What about an Airtrek? Are they worse at polluting than a 2 wheel drive 6 litre Holden?
Does anyone have a problem seeing round an Airtrek any more and a two wheel drive transit van?

FFS, if you tax 4x4 cars higher as some sort of jealousy tax, what's next?

[Swoop]

as I live in country its a suitable cage for me and having a St Bernard in a toymota just doesn't work
I believe you might find that a St Bernard is actually a form of transport... Just throw a saddle on the bugger!
Good for getting to and from the pub as well, since it has that nice beer barrel around the neck for those "longer walks" :apint:

[Big Dave]

If I only bought brand new bikes and traded then every 2nd year I could live with just a bike -


Thats the plan - the Buell is out of warranty in Nov - I'm just gunna trade it on another one the same, unless something startling in the class happens for 08 - Talked to the boys at AMPS about it last week.
Still got my old tbird too dontchaknow. Not planning on parting with that - it's worth far call anyway.

Mrs runs the car. Fortunately she prefers luxury limousines. I just sit back and crank the BOSE.:rockon:

[Motu]

Give me a call if you find a Tbird motor out the back of Patamatoe or somewhere....I'll help you bring it home,don't want to put you in the dog box for messing up the Copilot's car.....

[Pixie]

I just love the justifications that some come up with for owning 4x4's....towing,dogs etc.
I remember when the only 4x4's you saw were the occassional landrover, landcruiser or Patrol when a farmer came to town.I guess back then no one towed anything or owned dogs.

[cynna]

this reminds me of the time they wanted to put bike reg up to $2500 or something to cover the higher cost of ACC that are incurred by bike riders....

[Jantar]

etc.I just love the justifications that some come up with for owning 4x4's....towing,dogs
I remember when the only 4x4's you saw were the occassional landrover, landcruiser or Patrol when a farmer came to town.I guess back then no one towed anything or owned dogs.
Back then vehicles were built with a real chasis suitable for towing, not like todays light weight tin cans. Farmers who didn't have a land rover would have something like a Vanguard ute which was a 2000 cc go-anywhere type vehicle and weighed more than many of todays SUVs.

[Motu]

I just love the justifications that some come up with for owning 4x4's....towing,dogs etc.
I remember when the only 4x4's you saw were the occassional landrover, landcruiser or Patrol when a farmer came to town.I guess back then no one towed anything or owned dogs.

In 1972 I had an International AS110 18cwt pickup,this was bigger than the Pajero I own now.It was used to haul our dirtbikes and any parts for our British bikes and cars as well.It was also my daily drive,for going to work and parties on the weekend.It could go as many places as the Pajero can....more because I was young and stupid,and at 4mpg it used a shit load more fuel! I used to get called out on sunday mornings for tow jobs....people who drove off the road on saturday night.Ten years later I had a 4x4 RL Bedford,fitted a short flatdeck and used it as a daily runner - I was running a workshop in Otahuhu in those days and used it as a shop hack to get parts.....4mpg again.

And as Jantar says,the cars and pickups were a lot tougher and suitable for hard work than the light weight front wheel drive cars we get now....a Morris Minor would be put to more tasks than a Mazda 323 does today,and could go a lot further off road too.

[Ixion]

Back then vehicles were built with a real chasis suitable for towing, not like todays light weight tin cans. Farmers who didn't have a land rover would have something like a Vanguard ute which was a 2000 cc go-anywhere type vehicle and weighed more than many of todays SUVs.

OMG Yes! The Phase II Vanguard ute. 600x16 wheels weighed about 1000 tons (my back still aches from pushing my old man's one down to the back of the section!). And go absolutely ANYWHERE. And tow anything. The ladder chassis would not have been out of place on a bus.

The point is correct. The 4x4s have filled the niche once occupied by cars like the Ford flathead V8, the Vanguard, the Bedford Commer and Thames vans . They were as big heavy and tough as any modern 4x4 (considerably more so than the small 4x4s) and not much short of the 4x4 in off road ability. And could tow enormous weights (no brakes,mind you, but back then noone expected vehicles to have brakes. If you needed to stop you found an uphill bit or rammed the thing into reverse). And cars back then had bodies strong enough to fit a proper roof rack that could carry real weight, and luggage grids on the boots that opened down. And running boards. I miss running boards, they were so useful.

I've oftened wondered though why the manufacturers don't bring out two wheel drive versions of the SUV body type. Most users , especially of the smaller ones, don't actually need, use, or want the 4x4 capability. I'm aware that there a few such models.

EDIT: The Hudson service car. You can keep your 4x4s . NOTHING stopped the Hudson.

[Flatcap]

They're trucks, not cars. People should have to get special licenses to drive them.



This is the solution - if an HT license is required that would get rid of all the Hairdressers and School Run Mummys

[kro]

If you tax 4x4's higher, tax Vans too, and 7+ seater people movers, and the list goes on and on.

I don't believe in this retrospective legislation when it comes to things like this. If the tax was to have existed, it should have been on day 1, and not after all the unsuspecting consumers bought their 4wd's, and got taxed with GST, and road users already, and then some random "dangerous vehicle" tax comes out, that further wallops them in the bank account.

The 4WD "issue" is typical of NZ as a whole, who do most things on knee jerk reaction, rather than pro-actively.

Like all vehicles, 4WD's require care and attention to be operated properly, end of story.

[Grahameeboy]

If you tax 4x4's higher, tax Vans too, and 7+ seater people movers, and the list goes on and on.



Yep, I have a 7 seater people carrier to carry my Daughter's wheelchair so why should people like me pay an extra tax and I am reluctant to get a Diesel Mobility vehicle because I could not afford the RUC..........I guess if these vehicles get taxed there needs to be exemption caes too.

[Dave Lobster]

Why will taxing them make a difference anyway?
People paying more tax to the government wont cut down accident rates. It wont make people pay more attention. It wont cut down the pollution they (allegedly) produce.

All it will make a difference to is the amount of money the government has in its coffers.

How does that help anyone?

[kro]

The thing that gets me is car manufacturers who recall whole shitloads of cars because of a "fault" that "might" cause an issue. Why are they not recalling the 4WD's because of this "rollover" issue, and the crash tests blah blah.

To do this would be akin to a bike manufacturer recalling every 2 wheeled bike ever they made because they did some tests, and discovered that the bike "could fall over in certain circumstances".

[Motu]

What rock have you been under? There was a huge shit fight with Ford and Firestone about the Explorer.Modern SUV's don't have a chassis and have to pass a crash test.That's a bit stupid,as one of the benifits of a truck is the flexability of the ladder chassis.Just depends on where you want to draw the line between car/truck.Personaly I prefer my truck to be a truck.

[Finn]

If anything, pedestrians, motorcyclists and little car drivers should be taxed higher. They make an awful mess of my bumper, especially in the summer when the heat cooks brains and guts into the radiator. "Darling, do you smell chicken?"

[Kickaha]

Why are they not recalling the 4WD's because of this "rollover" issue


The "rollover" issue is mostly a "driver issue"


What rock have you been under? There was a huge shit fight with Ford and Firestone about the Explorer.

yeah that was very interesting about what was causing the problems and how long they had been going on for before Ford thought it was worth doing anything about

[kro]

What rock have you been under? There was a huge shit fight with Ford and Firestone about the Explorer.Modern SUV's don't have a chassis and have to pass a crash test.That's a bit stupid,as one of the benifits of a truck is the flexability of the ladder chassis.Just depends on where you want to draw the line between car/truck.Personaly I prefer my truck to be a truck.



Not being a walking motor vehicle library, it's hard to pull references like this from my posterior. My post was making a point about the "up in arms" kind of hysteria that is so typical these days.
if the vehicle isn't safe, it should not be on the road, but the definition of safe is like the warrant of fitness system, it's one persons opinion vs another.

[Ixion]

I too think that a 4x4 needs a chassis.

If you are going to take it off road a chassis is pretty essential. Or tow anything heavy.

Which is why older (< 1950) cars were actually as good offroad as a lot of SUVs. They had a chassis, and big tyres. (And running boards - all four wheelers need running boards. And crankhandles. )

The lack of a chassis tells me that manufacturers don't expect their SUVs to go offroad. So why include the 4WD ?

[JimO]

i have 2 a 05 hilux and a 96 prado just got back from packing up our camp with 6 people 1 dog 1 17 ft boat 1 18ft 6 caravan several tents, wind breaks etc a 3 hr drive completed in comfort and safty only hold up were 2 gits in cars doing 80 ks if you dont like them dont get one, but if you want to ban them its a small step to banning bikes because they are also dangerous, verry fuel innefecient compared to a small car that can carry 5 people as opposed to 2 on a litre bike and i bet more people are killed or injured on bikes in NZ than are in 4x4s

[The Pastor]

You are dicks, Who wants more tax? Go have sex with your sister you freek of nature, What a werido, I hope you get a vist from the tax man.

Lets brake it down

Income tax 20-40% depending how much you "earn"
Gst 12.5%
Petrol tax (no idea but i think its 40% of pump price?)
RUC
Super 5%
Acc leveys
rates and local taxes


And theres way more that Ive forgotten.

ITS TOO MUCH. CUT GOVERNTMENT SPENDING NOW.

SIF the GMENT will do Anything for anyone excpet gay maoris.

My boss was on about how he gets around $200 for every 600 he earns.


Last edited by renegade master : Today at 22:59. Reason: Btw, I hate suv's in town (love 4x4's not so much in town though) but tax is NOT the answer

[dickytoo]

If anything, pedestrians, motorcyclists and little car drivers should be taxed higher. They make an awful mess of my bumper, especially in the summer when the heat cooks brains and guts into the radiator. "Darling, do you smell chicken?"


I shouldn't say this but i agree with finn!:gob::shit: