Wellington: Master Builders?

[XP@]

Want to ask here first, on the premise that riding a bike makes you more trustworthy than the next man.

Basicaly I need someone to quote for a rip and replace of a deck. It's a fairly big job, involving re-roofing and work over 4m off the ground.

Please PM me if you can help.

Location is Whitby,

[JimO]

anybody can be a member of master builders including someone who hasnt done a apprentiship or isnt even a trained builder .Certified builders is what you want

[Swoop]

anybody can be a member of master builders including someone who hasnt done a apprenticeship or isnt even a trained builder. Certified builders is what you want
VERY well said!!!!!!!!!!

There are more cowboys out there than ever before... Thank you NZ immigration laws...

[Deano]

Denis Howard Building Consultants have just completed a deck and french doors at my place.

I'd recommend him. Phone 569 5806

[Finn]

VERY well said!!!!!!!!!!

There are more cowboys out there than ever before... Thank you NZ immigration laws...

I think the BIA, the Councils and a good old dose of the time honoured kiwi "she'll me right mate" are the cowboys. Immigrants do what they're told. How come my $2000 tent is more waterproof than my house?

[Swoop]

Immigrants do what they're told.
This is a Tui advert, right???

Just wait for a few years and we will see concrete slabs falling apart because there is NO REINFORCING STEEL in the slab.

I shit you NOT.

[Finn]

Just wait for a few years and we will see concrete slabs falling apart because there is NO REINFORCING STEEL in the slab.

You mean like untreated timber?

[Swoop]

You mean like untreated timber?
Even worse. With the slab intact you can replace the structure on top of it. If the slab is fuc*ed, then you go back to bare ground...

I was preaching the word of "untreated timber is shit" back in the mid 90's.

[Finn]

I was preaching the word of "untreated timber is shit" back in the mid 90's.

Does that explain an earth worm in the timber on the 3rd floor of my house?

[Swoop]

Does that explain an earth worm in the timber on the 3rd floor of my house?
It just wanted company, that's all.

[Finn]

It just wanted company, that's all.

I can't green rep you. That button has disappeared.

[Swoop]

I can't green rep you. That button has disappeared.
Muahahahahahaha!

Rum will do fine.

[Hitcher]

James, PM sent.

[JimO]

You mean like untreated timber?

untreated timber would be fine if it didnt get wet

[Finn]

untreated timber would be fine if it didnt get wet

Yeah. Who'd ever think it would rain in NZ.

[Paul in NZ]

Oddly enough - an Uncle of mine (old school Carpenter) told me this leaky building thing was gunna happen a decade before it did - same as a roofing specialist I knew....

Their attitude was / is... Its a bloody house, it's a long box with a pitched roof with decent eaves to protect the tops of the walls - theres a reason traditional houses look like they do.....

[Finn]

Oddly enough - an Uncle of mine (old school Carpenter) told me this leaky building thing was gunna happen a decade before it did - same as a roofing specialist I knew....

Their attitude was / is... Its a bloody house, it's a long box with a pitched roof with decent eaves to protect the tops of the walls - theres a reason traditional houses look like they do.....

There's lots of people coming out now and saying that. Wish they'd been a bit more vocal back then. My place was designed by an award winning architect and developed by a recognized developer. I knew jack about houses then so I paid over $1000 to a large firm for an engineers report and it came up tops.

I've already done a lot of work on it and just got an estimate from a QS well into 3 figures to complete it. Of course, everyone is ducking for cover. Meanwhile in Canada, their Government has come to the party. I wonder if Helen still thinks it's a media beat up.

[SPman]

I was preaching the word of "untreated timber is shit" back in the mid 90's.
Yeah.....weren't we all.........

Wish they'd been a bit more vocal back then.
Ever tried talking to a brick wall?.....Oh...of course......you're "talking" to the ACC and Fucked housing Tribunal!

Well into 3 figures - like 6-700 bucks?

[Paul in NZ]

There's lots of people coming out now and saying that. Wish they'd been a bit more vocal back then. My place was designed by an award winning architect and developed by a recognized developer. I knew jack about houses then so I paid over $1000 to a large firm for an engineers report and it came up tops..

They were very vocal but because an aging old fashioned carpenter and a beat up roofie were not fashionable or featured in 'outrageous building and lifestyles' - no one listened. Both turned down jobs they didn't approve of and would have nothing to do with the whole plaster over polystyrene fad either - again - they were slagged off as just old fashioned doom sayers and the big profits were in the faster methods....

I purchased a house my uncle had added an upper level to. His taste in decoration was not mine but sweet jesus it was well built and paint and paper is cheap compared to what you are going through. (incidentally - I feel for you - what a bloody shambles)

That was very much in my mind when we designed abd built our house - I fired the designer when he tried to get us to build a plaster chocolate box house - he was well miffed but didn't read our instructions...

[JimO]

Yeah. Who'd ever think it would rain in NZ.

it doesnt rain inside my house and it was built in 1911 has a pitched roof and soffits, if the top of the walls are protected there is no way water will get in

[Finn]

They were very vocal but because an aging old fashioned carpenter and a beat up roofie were not fashionable or featured in 'outrageous building and lifestyles' - no one listened. Both turned down jobs they didn't approve of and would have nothing to do with the whole plaster over polystyrene fad either - again - they were slagged off as just old fashioned doom sayers and the big profits were in the faster methods....

I purchased a house my uncle had added an upper level to. His taste in decoration was not mine but sweet jesus it was well built and paint and paper is cheap compared to what you are going through. (incidentally - I feel for you - what a bloody shambles)

That was very much in my mind when we designed abd built our house - I fired the designer when he tried to get us to build a plaster chocolate box house - he was well miffed but didn't read our instructions...

Yip, although local and central Government played a critical role in this fuck up and unfortunately the tax payers will have to fit the bill. Sure it'll be a drawn out process but I'll basically get a new house out of it and it won't cost me too much. Sure it's a pain in the arse but I really feel for the people who don't have money, can't borrow any and can't live in their houses. Meanwhile the Government sits on it's fat arse.

[Finn]

it doesnt rain inside my house and it was built in 1911 has a pitched roof and soffits, if the top of the walls are protected there is no way water will get in

Yes, I know that now and while houses built around that time don't leak, they are still shit boxes. Let's face it, kiwi's can't build houses and if they knew how to, they would be too expensive. Weather board, a piece of paper, some 4x2 and some gib. WTF?

It doesn't rain inside my house either. If you saw my house, inside and out, you'd never know it has a problem.

[JimO]

shit box i dont think so 9 ft stud, 2 meter wide hall way, 4 verry large bedrooms, living area, kitchen , dining 28 meters long by 6 meters wide 2 bathrooms, 3 toilets, large sunroom, verandah, ,,,,,,not what i would call a shitbox but you north island types may have higher standards

[The Stranger]

anybody can be a member of master builders including someone who hasnt done a apprentiship or isnt even a trained builder .Certified builders is what you want

Not so. Refer to their Web site (http://www.masterbuilder.org.nz/membershipf.asp) and application form

[The Stranger]

From what I can see on the Certified Builders site you are only required to trade qualified.

[Paul in NZ]

If you saw my house, inside and out, you'd never know it has a problem.


Yeah - I meet some people like that....

[JimO]

Not so. Refer to their Web site (http://www.masterbuilder.org.nz/membershipf.asp) and application form

well im a member of a similar trade assn and i also had a neighbour who worked for bro repairs fixing flat tyres who sold his house and bought a McKoullogh kitset and built it himself next thing i know he is a builder and a couple of years later he is a member of the master bldrs assn and advertising as a Registered Master Bldr, so either they have changed their critera or your wrong also i have been in the building industry since 1975 . you have to have done a apprentiship and be a qualified carpenter to be a member of Certified Builders

[Finn]

shit box i dont think so 9 ft stud, 2 meter wide hall way, 4 verry large bedrooms, living area, kitchen , dining 28 meters long by 6 meters wide 2 bathrooms, 3 toilets, large sunroom, verandah, ,,,,,,not what i would call a shitbox but you north island types may have higher standards

It wasn't a personal attack on your home jimjim. I was refering to the general build quality of NZ homes.

Edit: You've got a dining room 28 x 6 metres? You could fit the population of Dunedin in there.

[JimO]

It wasn't a personal attack on your home jimjim. I was refering to the general build quality of NZ homes.

Edit: You've got a dining room 28 x 6 metres?
not quite dining kitchen lounge all open plan but with interior french doors to close off the dining kitchen from lounge. Kiwi houses are built with local materials which is wood etc, in Dunedin there are lots of older brick houses with plastered brick interior walls but there was a local brick industry back in the old days. These houses are solid but cold but once warm stay warm and the cost of building them would stop 99% of people being able to afford to build. I feel a lot of the leaking problem sits squarly at the door of designers etc and the trend of trying to reproduce a medeteranian villa in a damp humid climate

[SPman]

From what I can see on the Certified Builders site you are only required to trade qualified.
Yup - you have to have your piece of paper. Still no guarantee though. One of the first jobs I failed was by a Certified builder - and it wasn't just a regulatory failure - he had done some basic building mistakes that you would not really expect from a qualified builder, professing to be better than the norm.

Weather board, a piece of paper, some 4x2 and some gib. WTF?
Works well if its done properly. Use the available materials to hand - until it got sabotaged along the way. Some of the worst built houses I've seen (apart from the current crop), were built in the mid 20's - 30's. Most of those shit box little bungalows over Pt Chev way, now selling for $3/4 m.
The fact they are still standing after 75-80 yrs, is not a reflection on the builders, more a reflection on the materials used.

[Swoop]

My place was designed by an award winning architect...
Oh dear.....

Architects simply build monuments to themselves.

[Skunk]

This is my current after hours job. Fixing a shit job add-on from the mid 80's. No eaves, internal gutter etc.

More pics here (http://www.skunkworks.net.nz/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=nr&page=1)

[Finn]

Architects simply build monuments to themselves.

Ayn Rand fan are we?

[The Stranger]

well im a member of a similar trade assn and i also had a neighbour who worked for bro repairs fixing flat tyres who sold his house and bought a McKoullogh kitset and built it himself next thing i know he is a builder and a couple of years later he is a member of the master bldrs assn and advertising as a Registered Master Bldr, so either they have changed their critera or your wrong also i have been in the building industry since 1975 . you have to have done a apprentiship and be a qualified carpenter to be a member of Certified Builders

Define qualified. My understanding is you need only be an indentured tradesman to become a certified builder. You need not have any qualifications other than time served. Not that hard really to stick out 4 years and bingo, you are able to become a certified builder. A good half (or more) of the guys I served my time with I wouldn't let near my place.

Master builders federation regularly find those advertising that they are Master Builders when they aren't and this is taken very seriously. Obviously it is impossible for me to comment on the case to which you refer as you are privy to the detail and I am not, but by all means take it up with the Master Builders Federation.

I am sure that if the Certified Builders logo becomes recognisable or carries any weight in the industry at any stage they will have the same issues to deal with too.

So you have been in the building industry since 1975. Well you beat me by 3yrs, but please do explain how this has any baring on the matter at hand.

[Hitcher]

Oh good grief.

A simple inquiry about builders who may be able to do a bit of deck construction has degenerated into a war of words between rival building trade associations and which one of these may or may not hold the moral high ground; the adequacy or not of building trade 'qualifications" or the value of time-based apprenticeships. Most people have probably had good, bad and indifferent experiences with tradespeople and other "professionals" over their lives and make recommendations accordingly.

XP@ wanted recommendations. Some of us have given him some.

I don't particularly care whether this should be morticed or butt-jointed and, as we are occasionally reminded with a particularly offensive photographic image, arguing on the Internet is ultimately futile, especially with those whose foundations run deep.

[XP@]

XP@ wanted recommendations. Some of us have given him some.
Ah, don't worry, I have 4 kids, so I can ignore a lot of cr4p.

Some good recommendations would be good though, in my experience you have to call about 10 tradesmen to get one to even look at a job.

As for Master builders, I didn't know there was more than one association, but basically I don't want a cowboy. Better still would be knowing the money i pay would go towards something i also like eg a bike, even though it belongs to someone else. (there are too many builders driving around in V8 utes, this is not good, cos bikes seem to be invisible to them)

So I am still up for ideas, or if anyone has the skills to quote for about $30k of work....

Or if you are a Quantity Surveyor then I could use your skills instead. In fact at this stage a QS may be more use to me.

[badlieutenant]

In regards to finding a good builder, ph around and ask to see examples of previous work. My old employer keep photos and names of all work and clients and encouraged possible clients to contact any of them to see what they thought of his work. At that time he had been building for 26 years and never advertised.
Ive seen inspectors walk on site have a glance around and bugger off. At least thats how it was a couple of years ago. Nowadays they are super fussy
which I dont mind but having to book a week in advance can be a pain when they have to come on site alot more now.

As a builder I'll never touch another stucco house again. They will fail (IMHO) cracking been a major issue, capillary action of water is as good as sticking a hose in your wall, Ive helped repair multi story multi million dollar buildings that after four years have converted 300mm/45mm studs at 400mm centers into what looked like charcol. The only thing holding up this 4 story external wall (that was also a fire exit) was the stucco, a bit of irony there :)

As i have just found out its a good idea to have penetrations in the building envelope that are covered by the E2 guide. If it isnt refered to in the acceptable solutions guide it can be a bit of a nightmare.

last I heard by 2009 alot of the work done on a house will have to be done by a registered practioner, which I assume is a certified builder, not master builder or master trade. No more DIY swap the old windows for new french doors lark.

[The Stranger]

last I heard by 2009 alot of the work done on a house will have to be done by a registered practioner, which I assume is a certified builder, not master builder or master trade. No more DIY swap the old windows for new french doors lark.


It is an arse covering exercise as they found out this time there was no one to foot the bill.

The term certified builder usually is used to refer to these guys (http://www.certified.co.nz/).

The certification for work as you describe however is not issued by these folk and anyone can subject to various checks and conditions (and insurance) become certified.

So Master Builders, Certified Builders or those not belonging to any trade association can become certified to carry out the work.

The DIY guys will still in theory be able to do there stuff, however they will need to have someone with arse cover check it off and accept responsibility for it - for a fee. Much as you can do a lot of your own electrical work now and have it checked off by a registered sparky.

That said, all of the above is subject to change without notice.

[SPman]

Or if you are a Quantity Surveyor then I could use your skills instead. In fact at this stage a QS may be more use to me.

How about both? A QS / builder (qualified and experienced in both - large meandering decks a speciality)

Bugger - wrong country these days!

Registration of builders - ie arse covering acts by the authorities, will become voluntary in Nov 07 (if they've finally decided how) and compulsory by Nov 09. - all structural or envelope / cladding related work will have to be signed off, by a registered builder.

[XP@]

Even if you do all you should then you can win them all...

http://picasaweb.google.com/ExPatty/DeckShared
this is only a small portion of the abortion that has been made of our deck...

No I can't say who, legal issues and all that.

[badlieutenant]

eeeeww. was it an existing deck that got butynol placed later ? just a guess as I would have thought you use marine grade ply.
is that a flashing wiv all da nails and brackets planted thru ?

[Brett]

Masterbuilder Guarantee does not mean a single thing. It is a marketing gimmick and nothing more. Certified Builders is similar, except that they actually monitor your company and insist that to hold the licence, that at least on ebuilder in the company is registered...

At the end of the day, reputation is what counts. I really feel for those poor sods who have leaky buildings...frustrating situation to be in. And that folks is why you DO NOT build a house using a monolithic cladding or especially plastered polystyrene as a cladding. No matter how many flashing and control joints you put in them and the plaster, the buggers can find a way to leak. I am about to build my place, and it will be brick and tile/long run all the way baby...

[SPman]

Strangely enough, despite all the hype about them, from my observation around Auckland, the "chilly bin houses" hold up far better than the Hardietex abortions. If the surface cracks and water gets in, its got 40mm of poly to get through before it reaches the timber. Most of the trouble with the poly (like all the rest) is flashing details and ground clearance issues.