Criminal intent

[kro]

I had a discussion on this topic elsewhere, and got mixed reactions.

Basically, I think our justice system needs some harder penalties, to make prison seem less attractive to the down and outs, and to make inmates work 40 hours a week, with things like any monies earned being portioned out with percentages going to the victim or family of.

If you look at the last few months, we have had an 87 yr old found in the Avon river, babies being sexually violated, Graeme Burton kills a guy In Wgtn, a house full of Japanese people is set alight, and it's arson/murder, and just days ago, about 5 mins from a friends place, another body in a river in Chch.

These are just some of the atrocities committed in our country, that just a couple of decades ago would have been front page items, that would have been talked about for weeks afterwards. Today, it's a short segment in the middle of the news, and is overshadowed by a sports team of ours, who beats Australia or England.

As a parent, and the leader of a household, when a behaviour is unacceptable, you tell the offending person that it is not on, and you let the rest of the family know it's unacceptable, and the bloody government should do so too, but our government does not seem to do this anymore, and through our passive stance on crime as a country, are we telling the crims that they are tolerated?.

Some crims can be rehab'd, and put back into the game, some need to be locked away full time. If the meatheads who let Graeme Burton out, had done their job properly, a man would still be alive as I type this, and his Dad would never have been on public television calling for blood.

Are we too soft on crime?. I think we are miles behind the eight ball myself.

[Grahameeboy]

You are probably right, however, but do crims think about prison when they commit crime..possibly not.

Maybe they know they will go to prison and don't worry about it.

Murderers will murder whatever the punishment.

Isle of Man has no prisons and is virtually crime free.

[kro]

Thats kinda part of my point GB, the criminal mind is selfish in the extreme, and often doesn't think of the consequences, because there are no serious disincentives for crims, other than jail, and as I have seen in past workmates, who were ex cons, they spoke of jail in a relatively fond way, because it was easy living.

[Quartermile]

Mate I totaly agree, I also have had a few of these little discussions. Will be very intested to see what others have to say on the subject.

I mean Sky T.V in cells is rediculas, I recently saw an epesode of the FBI files in which the guy who shot but didn't kill two people got 800 years no parol and annother who killed a person anoung other thins, burglary, assult etc got 3 death sentances.

[Grahameeboy]

Thats kinda part of my point GB, the criminal mind is selfish in the extreme, and often doesn't think of the consequences, because there are no serious disincentives for crims, other than jail, and as I have seen in past workmates, who were ex cons, they spoke of jail in a relatively fond way, because it was easy living.

I suspect the Human Rights Act intervenes..........they are still locked away and would harder prisons just make crims harder and if they had to work 40 hour weeks I am sure they would still find a way to work the system...........

There was a program that looked at the cons (no pun intended) of prison that in some cases promoted crims............I mean crimes probably happen in prison and if prison was harder it could turn things into a survival of the fittest and make things worse.

Who knows, what seems logical often isn't.

[bull]

having worked with ex-inmates and current inmates on a re-integration programme i have to agree that 100% of the guys and girls we interviewed all found prison to be a breeze.

My first visit into prison was a nervous affair but once in their it was like a holiday camp but with secure fences, they roamed freely in the yards and had a modest cabin to sleep in.

I agree that punishments need to be harder to discourage crime and to help with this prisons need to be harder, surely a prison should just consult with humans rights and find out what is the least amount of care and support we need to provide to be humane. None of this hot meal shit, i know some families whom struggle to have a hot meal everyday.

My only fear with creating harsher penalties would be that aggravated robberies would end up with murders so as not to leave too many witnesses.

Its a tough subject and it seems that government have put it in the too hard basket and left it at that.

[doc]

Aaarha, another of my pet grandstand issues. Jail is not about rehabilitation. If they can be rehabilitated you don't need to send them to jail. Jail is for the legal system to feel good. Just like justice, is nothing about the victim, it's about the fact you didn't do as the Govt decreed you should. They passed the Law.

What we need is restitution. If some "R"sole needs to go to jail why let him out. Use them for research instead of poor ole rabbits getting soap in their eyes use the rapists. If the stupid pricks who do crime get caught, get them doing community work "Bring back chain gangs" Humiliation is the best form of punishment.
Why fine someone and keep the money, fines are for the victims.
It may cost more . I think originally Jails were where you held them until they were executed. But thats before we got "Social Workers"

Jail is not about punishment. The system thinks that restricting someones freedom is enough punishment . And we must treat them humanely. Hitcher for God's sake leave my grammar out of this

[Dave Lobster]

d if prison was harder it could turn things into a survival of the fittest and make things worse.

If prison was a two by six foot solitary cell of solitary confinement for the length of the sentence, with one meal (of soup) a day, prison wouldn't be so attractive to criminals. No exercise breaks, just solitary confinement 24 hours a day.

There wouldn't be much reoffending..

[James Deuce]

If prison was a two by six foot solitary cell of solitary confinement for the length of the sentence, with one meal (of soup) a day, prison wouldn't be so attractive to criminals. No exercise breaks, just solitary confinement 24 hours a day.

There wouldn't be much reoffending..

No. But we'd need a substantial boost in Mental Health funding and the creation of a number of forensic psych units.

[Dave Lobster]

Only if you let them out.

[James Deuce]

Forensic psych isn't letting them out. It's an incarceration unit for the criminally, irrevocably insane.

I'd prefer if they bought their own drugs thanks. We already have to fund one of the biggest per head of capita prison systems in the OECD, without having to medicate 100% of inmates as well.

We pay for that you know. We pay for it from our pockets, in classroom sizes, a health system that barely works and a laughable balance of payments. We also pay for an under class with entitlement syndrome. Wanna make that underclass bigger?

[Dave Lobster]

Wanna make that underclass bigger?

ok.. two per cell..

[James Deuce]

Can you imagine Disco Dan and skidmark sharing a cell?

*shudder*

[doc]

If prison was a two by six foot solitary cell of solitary confinement for the length of the sentence, with one meal (of soup) a day, prison wouldn't be so attractive to criminals. No exercise breaks, just solitary confinement 24 hours a day.

There wouldn't be much reoffending..
If thats the case why let them out. They would certainly have an attitude problem.

[Dave Lobster]

If thats the case why let them out?

That was pretty much my point..

[Flatcap]

We already have to fund one of the biggest per head of capita prison systems in the OECD

Thats the problem with stats - we have one of the biggest / worst of everything in the OECD. The only reason we are in the OECD is Anglo-Saxon arrogance. We should really be relegated to third world and give some rising nation a crack at first division.

Then we would'nt have to live up to the fabled OECD standards, institute the death penalty, and bring down the prison population...

[doc]

Can you imagine Disco Dan and skidmark sharing a cell?

*shudder*
That is disgusting. I should red rep you. But I won't

[doc]

That was pretty much my point..
But you've got talkback radio, Socialworkers, opposition party members, nutters , some KB'r members wanting to give them another chance.

[Dave Lobster]

But you've got talkback radio, Socialworkers, opposition party members, nutters , some KB'r members wanting to give them another chance.

Three to a cell???

[Horney1]

Careful what you wish for. Changes in penalties would probably end up being applied over a wide range of offences and the next thing you know it'd be mandatory jail for a +20km/hr offence!

[mstriumph]

........ with one meal (of soup) a day..................

tart it up with soft music and a few tasteful drapes and you could call it a day spa

:dodge:

[Ixion]

Harsher (some might say cruel) punishment is superficially attractive. And for a percentage (but I think a small percentage) of the criminals it might be successful in deterring recidivism.

But the reality is the "hardened criminal" who laughs at the present rigour of the system and cares not a whit whether he be sent back to prison, is ONLY a percentage of the total prison population.

Many people who get sent to prison are NOT hardened criminals . They are people who have led a so far (more or less) blameless life , and find themselves behind bars because of a first time mistake , of greed, stupidity, or in some cases sheer bad luck. For them , a prison sentence is a terrible thing. Just in itself. They have lost a lot even before the cell door closes on them. Reputation, job, probably savings and home, very likely lost partner, family,children. They are sent into an environment that is very harsh for a person not accustomed to it. In most cases they will be very determined not to find themselves back there. But, the reality is, that once released , the mechanisms for reintegrating them back into society are so defective and people so unforgiving , that often they will find themselves forced back into a criminal life as a matter of sheer survival.

For these people the harsh punishments suggested would be savage and cruel far beyond what could be justified and far beyond what social utility would suggest or require. I would not want to have to admit to being a member of a society that would inflict such punishment upon them

Others (a large percentage) offend because they are either of deficient mentality , or are psychologically scarred or ill. It is very possible to be extremely mentally ill and yet still satisfy the test for criminal liability. In the nature of things harsher treatment is unlikely to have any effect on recidivism in such people. They are more deserving of pity than of vengence.

It worries me that so many people regard gaol as a mechanism for revenge or retribution. For instance the very often recurring references to rape within the prison system. Do the people who make such suggestions really want to go on record as endorsing rape? Perhaps they endorse it when the victim "deserves it"? Or "was asking for it". I am very uncomfortable with such attitudes. And if prisoners are indeed in danger of rape (or other violence) in gaol, then the Department of Corrections needs a wholesale sacking. If people cannot be kept safe in the secured environment of a gaol, where can they be safe?

[Dave Lobster]

Careful what you wish for. Changes in penalties would probably end up being applied over a wide range of offences and the next thing you know it'd be mandatory jail for a +20km/hr offence!

At the same time as letting graffiti artists walk free, no doubt.. :angry:

[Horney1]

Some pr*ck raped beat and murdered a female relative of mine. I hope he in turn gets raped daily, hates it and is tortured by it.

[doc]

tart it up with soft music and a few tasteful drapes and you could call it a day spa

:dodge:
How about the same Abba song all day long, and the spa having 400v pos and neg connections. Take the plunge when you're ready type therapy .You have a choice.

[kro]

Totally agree Ix, there are some good people in jail, I don't believe every criminal is a bad person..... who here has a work pen at home?, by either intentional or unintentional means?.

The real hard bastards like Burton, who should never have seen the light of day, are testament to a soft penal system imo, and this is the stuff that needs tightening up on.

Look at those countries that flog drug traffickers, thats a harsh fucker of a punishment, and they get 5 or 6 lashes, with a gap in between them for healing time only. Some might say drug trafficking is minor compared to murder, but these countries take this seriously, and I bet they have dissuaded a good amount of would be importers.

I'm not saying flog the bastards, but at least make sure the hard crime gets hard time, and as others have said, make jail less of a holiday rest period after a hards years killing/raping.

[Dave Lobster]

How about the same Abba song all day long
Aren't all Abba songs the same one? ie, shite?

[doc]

Aren't all Abba songs the same one? ie, shite?
You f.ckin stirer. I liked the blonde one

[SixPackBack]

....................

[doc]

answer. The justice system is designed to punish and rehabilitate, far.
Where do you get these idea's from. It's a crim/gang recruting university. Describe punishment they get and rehabilitation they receive.

[SPman]

I make no apology for lifting this post - I agree with it!

Let’s jump on prisoners again
Oh this is too rich – okay Simon ‘I wanna see em hang’ Power from National has done more to champion a return to public hangings than any other politician in recent memory. NOW, after screaming for more people to be locked up and brutalized in our corrupt and violent prison system (the violent prison system that we don’t care about because we all get angry about crime – something that mostly happens to poor people in the first place but are fanned to levels of paranoia by the fears of the middle classes thanks to Simon ‘I wanna see em hang’ Power), Simon is now critical of the fact that Corrections spends a bundle just moving prisoners from straining, over crowded prison to straining, over crowded prison.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha - hilarious. So Simon screams for prisoners to go to prison, which are over crowded and over stretched leading to a violent and corrupt prison force and Simon is complaining about moving the prisoners around?

You gotta love dem rednecks.
Places like Mt Eden and Pare are a long way removed from nice cosy prison farms......

[doc]

I make no apology for lifting this post - I agree with it!

Places like Mt Eden and Pare are a long way removed from nice cosy prison farms......
Exactly, so the ones from Pare are suddenly before release are suitable for pe release to a prison farm. Oh that's right its the Parole Boards fault. Or was it we weren't consulted on it excuse.

[kro]

Another point to consider is, if you are subject to a heinous crime, lets say your wife is murdered, why should the person who did that be given any special treatment, and be rehabilitated into society?. I would not trust the person, ever, and we often overlook the impact of serious crime on our communities, and start giving hardened crims too much attention, whilst the victims live through a period of abject trauma, with little if any support, other than counselling.

[fireliv]

Well from someone who knows a little on this subject...........

Yes prison in NZ is 2 easy. But making harsher penalties is not going to solve the underlying problems. Yes there are some bad buggers out there, 1% of the population are psychopaths, but the majority of people commit crimes due to things that have gone wrong in their lifes, that can be addressed. Fix the underlying problems, and crime will decrease. As it is there is a huge increase in the crime rates because of the hike in prison sentences in 2002, and now everyone is complaining because more prisons have to be built, which in turn comes back to the taxpayer. So I believe if more money went into educating and aiding the population, then crime would reduce.

Just my 2 cents

[Dave Lobster]

Fix the underlying problems, and crime will decrease.


Mmm.. stop having so many walls - that'll stop people painting on them.
Stop carrying a wallet - that'll stop people stealing it.
Don't drive - you wont have a car to be stolen.
Don't leave possessions in your house - nobody will burgle it.
Pay taxes - then there'll be enough money to give to freeloaders.

[Lias]

I suspect the Human Rights Act intervenes..........

Rant mode on!

The Human Rights act is one of the biggest pieces of shit legislation around.

Because of it, a fundamentalist church cant refuse to hire a satanist or a poof, a warehousing outfit cant refuse to higher a quadroplegic in a wheel chair, etc. Course they still wont hire these people ,they just have to come up with a different excuse, because the law prohibits them from discriminating based on sexuality, religion, or disability.

The HRA it yet another peice of nanny state legislation created by communist scumbags who want everyone to sit around the campfire together and sing kumbaya as equals. Fuck em all

Even if did agree with the basic tennets of the act (which I dont), I firmly believe that anyone who commits a crime serious enough to warrant a stay inside, they give up all the rights that a normal member of society deserves. Crims should have the right to a cold dank cell, bread and water, and hard labour until their sentence is compelte or they die of exhaustion/malnutrition, and fuck all other rights!

[kro]

Well from someone who knows a little on this subject...........

Yes there are some bad buggers out there, 1% of the population are psychopaths

These are the buggers I say we leave inside, I agree, there are people who can be bought back from the brink, and they deserve a second go. Most of the hardened nutters are on their 5th or 6th chance, and still offend. These are the munts that we should confine.

[Quartermile]

Some pr*ck raped beat and murdered a female relative of mine. I hope he in turn gets raped daily, hates it and is tortured by it.

Not going to happen in NZ prisons:(


Where do you get these idea's from. It's a crim/gang recruting university. Describe punishment they get and rehabilitation they receive.

Punishment:They only get 2 Pay per view movies a day on their SKY TV in their cell then they want 3

Rehabilitation: They do actually get this in a classroom situation 30mins a week which does a lot :rolleyes:


Well from someone who knows a little on this subject...........

Yes prison in NZ is 2 easy. But making harsher penalties is not going to solve the underlying problems. Yes there are some bad buggers out there, 1% of the population are psychopaths, but the majority of people commit crimes due to things that have gone wrong in their lifes, that can be addressed. Fix the underlying problems, and crime will decrease. As it is there is a huge increase in the crime rates because of the hike in prison sentences in 2002, and now everyone is complaining because more prisons have to be built, which in turn comes back to the taxpayer. So I believe if more money went into educating and aiding the population, then crime would reduce.

Just my 2 cents

They could of course share cells, oh sorry thats to harsh this is NZ prison not a holiday camp


These are the buggers I say we leave inside, I agree, there are people who can be bought back from the brink, and they deserve a second go. Most of the hardened nutters are on their 5th or 6th chance, and still offend. These are the munts that we should confine.

Exactly first minor offense we can be lighter on them, but their 3rd! maybe a no parole for a start...

[86GSXR]

You are right Kro. New Zealand is too soft, in many ways, and not just in the way we deal with criminals.

And to be fair, Garth McVicar and the sensible sentencing trust have made some progress into dealing with the problem of soft sentences.

I feel sad when I think of the social changes that have occurred in this once (and still) great country in such a short period of time.

I read yesterday that truancy rates have soared 40% in the last two (I think) years!

When I was at school in the 70's, the strap and the cane were an extremely effective way of dealing with any misdemeanors. Instant punishment, and in 99% of cases, lesson learned.

Now, kids know that they can do what they like, and there is virtually nothing that can be done about it. And god forbid corporal punishment.

The social welfare system has become a monster that is just creating and breeding the criminal underclass. This is where a lot of our crims start life.

OK, so a lot of 'economic' policies have been responsible for this as well, but there are always jobs out there if one wants and is prepared to work for one.

I work with a lot of young people, many of them from countries that have compulsory military service. And I have to say that the guys who have done their two years stand head and shoulders above most of the others.

New Zealand used to do this, but now?

I couldn't believe it when NCEA was introduced. A youngster I know got less than 40% in one subject - and passed. God, since when is having an understanding of less than 40% of anything a pass.

Our system rewards mediocre effort and tells us that its 'OK' to not achieve a basic standard. And don't even mention text talk being allowed in exams.

Most policy makers are too scared of not meeting some performance indicator or other that they'll do anything to cover their asses and blame someone, or something else. Like the system they are part of.

BTW, this isn't a slur on our kids, just the systems and policies that have created what we have become. I have a 17 yo at Uni and he's doing just fine:yes: