Does this baby deserve parents like this?

[Beemer]

I know people make mistakes and not every person in prison will be back there within months of release, but this story on Stuff this morning really pisses me off. The baby was born in prison, its mother and father are both in prison - I think this is a case where the baby is better off being adopted out before it ends up just like mum and dad.

Prisoner wants baby born in jail returned to her care
The Dominion Post | Monday, 16 April 2007

A prisoner whose four-day-old baby was taken from her in jail is considering a legal fight to regain the child.

Cheyenne Tonihi, 23, is receiving grief counselling and taking anti-depressants for the loss, a Wellington District Court judge has been told.

Her daughter lives with her grandmother in Hawke's Bay, too far away to regularly visit Arohata Prison at Tawa.

The baby's father is in prison for drug offences.

Tonihi's lawyer, Michael Bott, confirmed that he was advising her on possible steps to challenge the decision that led to her losing the baby she had about four months ago, and had started to breastfeed.

In Wellington District Court on Friday he told Judge Mike Behrens, QC, that he thought the baby's removal had been barbaric and it had taken away Tonihi's strongest incentive to beat her drug addiction. She might have kept her baby if her security classification had been lower – but as it was she could not go to the self-care facility where she could have looked after her baby.

Green MP Sue Bradford has proposed a law change that would increase the time babies can stay with their mothers in prison – from the current six months to at least two years – with a focus on breastfeeding and learning good parenting.

Ms Bradford said a select committee hearing submissions would report back to Parliament in July, with "a lot of feedback" saying even two years was not long enough.

"The guilt and trauma associated with removing babies from their mothers has a dreadful impact on them," she said. There were 13 pregnant women in prison when the bill was first sent to a select committee for debate last June.

Mr Bott said Tonihi needed drug and alcohol counselling which she would not get in prison.

Instead Tonihi was getting grief counselling and anti-depressants to deal with the loss of her baby.

She was sentenced to five months' jail on two charges of selling cannabis to an undercover police officer, and two charges of having cannabis for the purpose of supply.

Judge Behrens said the new term would not add to the length of her sentence. He said it was all very well to criticise the system for taking away the baby, but he questioned whether that was more harmful than her daughter being returned to her when Tonihi was taking drugs.

[Finn]

Does NZ deserve to have a baby like this? Answer, no.

Stop low life's from breeding. The country will be a better place.

[BarBender]

Why adopted out?
What other solutions are there that take into consideration the possible successful rehabilitation of the parent?

[Finn]

Why adopted out?
The kid will only end up wanting to be re-united with them when it gets older.

Yeah, maybe Johnson & Johnson can use it to make Baby Oil.

[Beemer]

Why adopted out?
What other solutions are there that take into consideration the possible successful rehabilitation of the parent?

Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle.

And I'm afraid I have to agree with Finn - some people should not be allowed to breed.

[yungatart]

Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle.


It is cheaper for the State to place a child with family members, no matter how unfit they may be as parents, than it is to place a child in a decent non-related foster family.
It all comes down to how they (the State) decide to spend your tax dollars....

[ManDownUnder]

It's a big and tough question, and needs to be looked at case by case. On the face of it - it looks like the baby would be better off etc but in the absence of knowing all the details can any of us really comment?

My only hope is this - the child gets a good start and run at life, is provided with a healthy, nurturing environment and is not restricted in the opportunities they have. They should not be denied the chance to know their heritage (i.e. their Mum and Dad) and I hope they get to see the mess their Mum and Dad were in, in 2007, and that they're in a good enough position to understand what decisions were made, why and how it was ideally to their benefit.

It's a tough one and I hope everyone involved has their shit sorted out before making any decisions affecting the welfare of bubbz.

Rant off.

[Her_C4]

It's a tough one and I hope everyone involved has their shit sorted out before making any decisions affecting the welfare of bubbz.

Rant off.


Absolutely:rockon: but it has to be said, babies do NOT belong in prison, and babysitting is not listed as a required skill/responsibility in the Job Description of the Prison Officers / Prison Nurses.:done:

[magicfairy]

Each case is has to be treated individually.
But they are only cannabis offences, not violent crimes and maybe the one thing that will inspire this woman to improve her life would be that she has a baby to think of and put first.
I had a baby at 18, at the time I was not heading in a good direction, but being responsible for another person changed all that, and I did turn my life around. That baby is now 27, happily married for 6 years and going to make me a grandmother at the end of the year. But at the time a lot of people didn't give us a chance.

[crashe]

In the UK, I believe they are allowed to keep their babies with them in prison for 1 year, some countries I think it is 2 years.
It is a privilage thou, not a given right to keep the baby with them.

If the mother farks up inside the mother/baby section, then the baby goes to a family member or foster care immediately.

So the mothers do their utmost to keep their babies with them for that bonding time and try to behave. During that time they are given help and guidence or looking after and raising a baby/child.

They have a part of the prison set up for the mothers and babies.
When the child reaches 1 year, then the baby is taken and given to the new caregiver (family or foster care) and the mother then goes back into the main prison area.

It would be unsettling for them both for a while...... but usually the child is brought into see the mum on a regular basis, depending on how long the mother has to serve.

Some women dont know they are pregnant when they are being sentenced but still have to remain in the main prison area until she reaches a certain time of her pregnancy.

Not all women go into prison for drugs and murder.... some is white collar crime....

[Beemer]

But they are only cannabis offences, not violent crimes and maybe the one thing that will inspire this woman to improve her life would be that she has a baby to think of and put first.

Sorry, but it's still illegal as far as I know and I don't really give a stuff what the offences are, it's the fact that BOTH parents are in jail. Not exactly setting themselves up for a great life where they could bring up a child well. Yes, people make mistakes and don't deserve to be punished forever for them, but that kid deserves a good start in life and having both parents in jail (even if they had 'only' shoplifted) is not a good start by any stretch of the imagination.

[Her_C4]

In the UK, .....

We are not in the UK and are not set up for proper care of mother and baby....

[bull]

The self care unit in Arohata Prison IS setup for proper care of both mother and baby but due to her higher level of security she is unable to be in that unit, otherwise reality is she would have her child for 6 months in the unit and then the baby would be sent to family etc to be cared for.

[sunhuntin]

Sorry, but it's still illegal as far as I know and I don't really give a stuff what the offences are, it's the fact that BOTH parents are in jail. Not exactly setting themselves up for a great life where they could bring up a child well. Yes, people make mistakes and don't deserve to be punished forever for them, but that kid deserves a good start in life and having both parents in jail (even if they had 'only' shoplifted) is not a good start by any stretch of the imagination.

exactly beemer... doesnt matter what the drug was... its still illegal. im wondering if "mum" was using while preg? the baby is only 4 months, and will get over it. my mother had a baby out of wedlock, which was removed as soon as it was born... shes ok [as best i can tell!!] i was adopted out at birth as well, and im also ok.

get the baby out now, while it still has a chance. leaving it in that situation can only push things furthur down the wrong path.

[Hitcher]

I don't know about "deserve", but a reality is that one poor baby has parents like that. It's what happens next that sickens me to my core.

[Spyke]

why would it be more of an incentive to have the kid with her to stop the drug addiction? she would already have what she wants so she probably wouldn't have the will to stop but if someone agreed that she could have her baby back if she did her jail sentence on best behaviour and over came her addiction, she would probably have more of an incentive to turn her ways around.

[Hitcher]

she would probably have more of an incentive to turn her ways around.

The cynic in me says "Yeah, right". She could then have her baby AND her addiction. Lovely.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I havn't read through the hole post but there is one part the gets me and that where they say how is she going to get over her drug addiction but they also say she was breast feeding this baby. What the f---k good is her breast milk going to do this baby anyway.

[magicfairy]

I havn't read through the hole post but there is one part the gets me and that where they say how is she going to get over her drug addiction but they also say she was breast feeding this baby. What the f---k good is her breast milk going to do this baby anyway.

I expect that since she was incarcerated, she wasn't consuming drugs at the time.
For the record cannabis isn't physically addictive - like opiates or P. Psychologically maybe but not physically. We don't know the full story but so quick to judge and write her off.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

We don't know the full story but so quick to judge and write her off.


Sorry i'm not writing her off and i don't care what drug she is taking she should still not be breast feeding with any sort of addiction.

[crashe]

We are not in the UK and are not set up for proper care of mother and baby....

No, I agree, we are not in the UK, but we should have the same set up here as well.


The self care unit in Arohata Prison IS setup for proper care of both mother and baby but due to her higher level of security she is unable to be in that unit, otherwise reality is she would have her child for 6 months in the unit and then the baby would be sent to family etc to be cared for.

As Bull states, we apparently do have it set up in Arohata Women's Prison.
Which is great for the mothers who have babies to help them get taught the basic's of looking after little ones and to bond with their child.


Bull, do you know if there is anything set up in the Mt Eden Women's section of the prison?

[BuFfY]

I think it is about right that the baby got taken off the mother. She should have to prove that she is worthy of being a parent before being given the baby in jail. Yes it would be bloody hard to have your baby taken off you, but in jail you shouldn't be allowed such privileges.
I would be terrified to think I spent the first year or two of my life in jail! And I would be thankful that my grandparents had me instead.
But I think that it is something that needs to be decided upon case by case.

[Beemer]

Which is great for the mothers who have babies to help them get taught the basic's of looking after little ones and to bond with their child.

Watch out, Hitcher is keeping an eye on this thread and he will castigate you for the incorrect use of an apostrophe!

I'll probably get flamed mercilessly for this but I don't give a shit which prison the mother is in, the fact that she has been taking drugs and also supplying them to others is reason enough for her to be denied contact with her baby. She should have thought of the consequences of her actions BEFORE she decided to start a family. What's that, I hear you say? She didn't plan on getting pregnant? No, she probably didn't. But she did know what she was doing when she was selling drugs. Having children is a privilege, not a right, and that right should be denied to those who have shown by their actions that they don't deserve it.

People who SELL drugs most likely USE them as well. I imagine the baby would be getting a steady supply from the air it breathed as well as from the breast milk.

And Magic Fairy, if you think once a person goes to jail their access to drugs is cut off, you must be away with the fairies!

[MisterD]

Cheyenne Tonihi, 23, is receiving grief counselling and taking anti-depressants for the loss, a Wellington District Court judge has been told.

Her daughter lives with her grandmother in Hawke's Bay, too far away to regularly visit Arohata Prison at Tawa.


Cheyenne?! If that's what the grandmother called her daughter, she's not a fit person to be looking after the baby either....

[Beemer]

Cheyenne?! If that's what the grandmother called her daughter, she's not a fit person to be looking after the baby either....

You're not wrong, wonder what the kid's called? Shakita? Diddymo? Or perhaps the favourite on another thread - Labia? Just the thing for a lippy kid!

[Patrick]

They took the kid and now she uses that as the excuse to continue her addiction instead of overcoming it...

Most likely approaching the end of her term and wants to set up her new and improved DPB payment....

And Majicfairy... shes in prison, not using drugs???
:laugh: :clap: :killingme :rofl:

That was funny....

[bull]

Cheyenne?! If that's what the grandmother called her daughter, she's not a fit person to be looking after the baby either....

We condemn this girl as going to be a bad parent because she is allready in jail and the system sees fit to hand the baby to grandmother.

Isnt this grandmother the same person whom raised a daughter that is now in jail, isnt this just a cruel cycle?

Agreed the mother shouldnt have the baby back until she has gotten lower security risk and is able to be moved to the self care units, but surely Corrections could do everything possible to do reassessments on her to see if she does now qualify for self care?

Sad sad story, and even the most optimistic of people surely couldnt see a bright future for said child.

[bull]

Bull, do you know if there is anything set up in the Mt Eden Women's section of the prison?

Sorry i have no knowledge of the prisons in Auckland.

[Beemer]

Isnt this grandmother the same person whom raised a daughter that is now in jail, isnt this just a cruel cycle?

Sad sad story, and even the most optimistic of people surely couldnt see a bright future for said child.

I just hope that the grandmother isn't as bad as the parents of this baby and that she won't be responsible for another generation ending up in prison.

I'm surprised no one has blamed the media yet. Funny how we get blasted for reporting on lowlife criminals when they end up in prison, yet when one gives a sob story about how the system has taken away her baby, we are the ones they run to for publicity.

[mstriumph]

............i was adopted out at birth as well, and im also ok.

get the baby out now, while it still has a chance. leaving it in that situation can only push things furthur down the wrong path.

no reason you shouldn't be ok - adoptive parents have to go thru much more rigorous testing than natural parents before being permitted a child

- personally i wish i had been adopted out - took me YEARS to shake free of my mother's drugs-of-choice [namely power, status and the almighty pound stirling] .....

I know that Finn won't want to believe it but it's perfectly possible to be a totally shitty parent without being a lowlife, jailbird or welfare dependant .....

[mstriumph]

I think it is about right that the baby got taken off the mother. She should have to prove that she is worthy of being a parent .............

personally i'd like to see a system where the public has to take parenting classes and pass a battery of tests before being permitted to breed IRRESPECTIVE of their social standing, asset base or familiarity with appropriate punctuation ................

also a system where all girls are routinely implanted with birth control devices before they reach puberty and actually have to take action to have a child [instead of having to take action NOT to have a child, as currently] .........
:shutup:
then again - what do you expect - i still think that Toothfairy LIVES!!

[ManDownUnder]

Sad sad story, and even the most optimistic of people surely couldnt see a bright future for said child.

That's possibly me you're talking about and yes - sadly I agree. Sometimes I wonder if it'd be better for everyone if baby simply "disappeared" into another family.

There's a few moral issues of course, but we're talking about someones ongoing welfare here... not to mention the burdens on society to be avoided in future years. Bubbz doesn't grow up all fucked up, and (birth) Mum and Dad get to know what happens if you're a total cock and have a baby.

aaaaa I must be feeling grumpy. Where's happy - or sleepy?

[Her_C4]

Bull, do you know if there is anything set up in the Mt Eden Women's section of the prison?

Mt Eden Womens as such no longer exists - it has been superceded by a new Sth Auckland Prison.

There have always been facilities been made available for babies to be with their mothers in the short term (well, for the last 20 years anyway...).

My experience however, is that in approximately 80% of cases, (a guess only) the motivation for having the baby with them (and indeed the timing of the pregnancy) is questionable.

I repeat. Babies do NOT belong in prison.

[SixPackBack]

..................

[BarBender]

Yeah, maybe Johnson & Johnson can use it to make Baby Oil.

What the fark Finn?


Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle. And I'm afraid I have to agree with Finn - some people should not be allowed to breed.

Beemer - You're gonna need to explain to me what good parenting is because I believe you dont need to have had bad parenting to be in prison...And writing off the immediate/extended family because of the above inference is a stereotypical view of those who 'think' they had good parenting.

[thehollowmen]

Olive oil is made from olives, whale oil is from whales, rice bran oil is made from rice bran...
Precedence dictates we should get baby oil from babies.

What the fark Finn?

[Lissa]

As a mother I couldnt think of anything more painful then losing your own baby, and would fully understand that she would need anti depressents to help her cope. What the mother HAS TO GET is drug rehabilitation, parenting courses or someone to help her with the day to day care of looking after the child, and a parent role model of some sort. This is for the Child and the Mothers benefit as well. Writing the mother off isnt going to help, she is still the childs mother, and for the benefit of the Childs Future she should get all the help she can. She needs to bond with the baby which only happens in the early months. No matter why she was in jail or for whatever reason, it doesnt mean she is going to be a bad mother.

[Finn]

What the fark Finn?

I've often wondered how many babies it takes to make a bottle of Baby Oil.

[Finn]

I know that Finn won't want to believe it but it's perfectly possible to be a totally shitty parent without being a lowlife, jailbird or welfare dependant .....

I believe it. There's stupid kiwi's everywhere and I know they weren't born that way.

[magicfairy]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]So the young lady's crime was to sell pot ? for that she is imprisoned and her baby taken away from her.

Exactly my point. Offending at the lower end of the scale, if she were rich and had a fancy lawyer she probably wouldn't even be in prison. Give her a chance.

[Patrick]

Beemer your veiws sicken me.[/FONT]

Meh... get over yourself... this dealer was selling to kiddies... didn't care where the $$$ came from apparently... Beemer, your views encourage me.

[Patrick]

Exactly my point. Offending at the lower end of the scale, if she were rich and had a fancy lawyer she probably wouldn't even be in prison. Give her a chance.

Yeah, but it is all the other chances she has been given over time... the other court appearances, (her history for committing whatever and I bet you it is not just cannabis...) the other times she has been sprung, the fines, then community service, then PD and still she didn't learn, even after getting pregnant...

Her fault, no one elses... why should the baby be in prison anyway? What did it do to deserve doing time, since we all know how tough it is in there.... Pffftttt...?

[Beemer]

So the young lady's crime was to sell pot ? for that she is imprisoned and her baby taken away from her. What a sad society we live in when someone with an addiction no different to tobacco or alcohol is condemned as a criminal and institutionalized, her baby ripped from her arms. Both mother and child will undoubtedly develop large all-encompassing chips on the shoulders for life, and rightly so. Hate for authority will surely follow. If society really cared about drug addiction tobacco would be head of the list and treatment would be via a doctor and not the courts.
Beemer your veiws sicken me.

I make NO apology for my views on people who become involved in selling illegal drugs and if that sickens you, tough shit. This woman was not just smoking dope, she was SELLING it to others. She and her partner (assuming they are a couple, he may have just been the sperm donor) were both into drugs at the very least and this baby was obviously going to be brought up in a house where drugs and the sale of them was a part of life. I - and many others in this thread - do not believe that is acceptable.

You are right though, this mother will have a huge chip on her shoulder but I doubt it will come from being deprived of the baby she doesn't deserve to have in the first place. It will come from people like you who repeatedly tell her she isn't such a bad person and selling drugs isn't such a bad thing.

Thanks for the red rep. Sad to see that my having morals and a dislike for illegal drugs warrants that kind of response.

[Patrick]

Must spread more love.... yada yada...

[SixPackBack]

.................

[Beemer]

Patrick,beemer your twisted sick and heartless. Imune from the hypocrisy current laws concerning alcohol and tobacco present.

Do you speak English? Our sick and twisted what? I don't smoke and I certainly don't drink to excess - or sell home-brewed stuff - so what point are you trying to make? Assuming you have a point, that is.

[BarBender]

I make NO apology for my views on people who become involved in selling illegal drugs and if that sickens you, tough shit. This woman was not just smoking dope, she was SELLING it to others. She and her partner (assuming they are a couple, he may have just been the sperm donor) were both into drugs at the very least and this baby was obviously going to be brought up in a house where drugs and the sale of them was a part of life. I - and many others in this thread - do not believe that is acceptable.

You are right though, this mother will have a huge chip on her shoulder but I doubt it will come from being deprived of the baby she doesn't deserve to have in the first place. It will come from people like you who repeatedly tell her she isn't such a bad person and selling drugs isn't such a bad thing.

Thanks for the red rep. Sad to see that my having morals and a dislike for illegal drugs warrants that kind of response.

I've often wondered what it must have been like to have worked for a company like Bristish Tabacco, Rothmans or Malborough during the 70's and early 80's - a time when it was socially acceptable to sell and distribute tabbacco. Nobody can tell me that these people didn't know what they didnt know. Based on your arguement it doesnt make sense to me that these motherfarkers were ever allowed to make substantial coin and breed...and to this day they continue to do so and now focus their marketing on our kids.

Fark the spread more love PC shit. We're taking about the natural right of a woman to speak out for what naturally belongs to her. Regardless of what they are and who they are and under what circumstances...Wherein the process does she get to express her opinion as a 'mother'?

Unfortunately for her it is in court.
If the decision goes her way hopefully with support she'll make the right call on where the baby will go. If the decision doesnt go her way..ah well...another citizen with a chip on their shoulder.

[Grahameeboy]

Why such a fuss, she will be out in 5 months so best the child is looked after in a more stable environment, Mother gets out and part of her rehabilitation will to get to know her child etc under supervision until she is seen fit to look after the child full time.

Sounds like the lawyers are getting the kudos here.

Child comes first and whilst it is sad, child needs a stable Mother.

[jazbug5]

So: who here actually knows all the facts in this case?

Where did the assertion that she was 'selling to kids' come from? What drugs are actually involved here- just pot (sorry, in my view pot really is a 'just' category drug, even though I don't think it's totally harmless), or harder drugs?

I'm sure it's been pointed out already, but how many parents out there drink to excess and screw up their kids with violence and other messed up behaviour associated typically with alcohol? Is that automatically ok because it's 'legal'? Surely not.

To separate a child from its parents is an extreme measure: if it's genuinely at risk, then perhaps there is no alternative- but it's a dangerous thing to allow the breaking up of families on the basis that the authorities do not 'approve' of them; it can lead to quite serious and far reaching damage to the lives of people involved, and does not generally result in enlightened behaviour all round.

[BarBender]

I've often wondered how many babies it takes to make a bottle of Baby Oil.

Naughty.

I've often wondered how its possible to balance a bottle of baby oil, a box of tissues and the DVD remote on the arm chair of the lazyboy....

Too much time on your hands Finnius??

[mstriumph]

As a mother I couldnt think of anything more painful then losing your own baby, and would fully understand that she would need anti depressents to help her cope. ...........................................

I used to think that - until aforementioned offspring reached her teens ........ it was only THEN that i needed anti-depressants to help me cope!!!!

... joking ....... :innocent:

[Grahameeboy]

So: who here actually knows all the facts in this case?

Where did the assertion that she was 'selling to kids' come from? What drugs are actually involved here- just pot (sorry, in my view pot really is a 'just' category drug, even though I don't think it's totally harmless), or harder drugs?

I'm sure it's been pointed out already, but how many parents out there drink to excess and screw up their kids with violence and other messed up behaviour associated typically with alcohol? Is that automatically ok because it's 'legal'? Surely not.

To separate a child from its parents is an extreme measure: if it's genuinely at risk, then perhaps there is no alternative- but it's a dangerous thing to allow the breaking up of families on the basis that the authorities do not 'approve' of them; it can lead to quite serious and far reaching damage to the lives of people involved, and does not generally result in enlightened behaviour all round.

Agree but Mother is only serving a 5 month sentence and could get out early for good behaviour...........so in the whole scheme of things I am sure child will be okay from this incident, hopefully this whole thing will make the Mother think about what is more important in life...........it could have been different if she had not been caught, gave birth and carried on her 'Drug' lifestyle so looking at things from this angle what has happened cannot be a bad thing.

[SixPackBack]

...................

[Grahameeboy]

Cops will regurgitate the same tired old shite that has been programmed into them, that and the process of criminalizing the general public keeps them in work.

Your red neck opinion is meaningless.

There must be a remote button for 'My Sixpacket' TV.......then we could know what he said before he said it................and then rewind........:dodge:

[SixPackBack]

................

[stelartia]

Considering the fact both parents are currently in jail, I doubt very much that they received good parenting themselves, so allowing the baby to stay within the family is only going to perpetuate the cycle.

And I'm afraid I have to agree with Finn - some people should not be allowed to breed.

bad parenting or not their old enough to take the consequences for thier own actions.
guess what one consequence is? coz they went to jail they dont see their child.
would be more of an insentive for a better parent

and yeah...agree

[SixPackBack]

......................

[crashe]

I've often wondered what it must have been like to have worked for a company like Bristish Tabacco, Rothmans or Malborough during the 70's and early 80's - a time when it was socially acceptable to sell and distribute tabbacco. Nobody can tell me that these people didn't know what they didnt know.

pm sent to you re this quote.

[u4ea]

I will keep my opinions of beemer and patrick to myself(theyre both to busy being blowhards to listen anyway)If this gal had a history of hard drugs and or selling to people under 18 then maybe she was aware that society has a tiny problem with this.If she was just selling a bit of weed as the government hasnt found a way of taxing it(its ok to decriminilise prostitution which has many drug deals over tax payed fees)then the judge was a bit harsh.The cops would be better placed if we had a system where they could arrest and see fair penalty of the HARD criminals.Taking a baby off a mother who is in prison is cruel if just for innocent repettative pot sales.The dad was probably the grower who got his arse licked by the law.So an easy case for the officers aye.?????I never smoked tobacco around my baby and to this day never smoke pot around my child ... if any one sold it to him before hes 18 ill be livid!!I liken it to alcahol and tobacco......god I say it gambling!!!!Does that mean I deserved to go to jail and lose my child because I may have a bit of personal weed which I choose to use in a controlled manner.........whatever......one law doesnt work for everybody.....it just keeps cops in a job and gas in the bags

[jrandom]

I make NO apology for my views... Sad to see that my having morals and a dislike for illegal drugs warrants that kind of response.

So...

If you lived in Amsterdam, you'd be cool with the mum smoking weed, inasmuch as it wouldn't be illegal?

Glad to see you're not deviating from your programming.

You know, it was people just like you who voted Hitler into power in the 1930s.

[Grahameeboy]

Can we say Alcohol, Tobacco, Drugs and most importantly HYPOCRISY all in the same sentence?

No but youz can.............

[Thomas]

Fark, someone doesn't like me! What a lovely PM from one of the posters (you can place bets on who it was) after I gave them some red rep for being an arsehole.

"I have never heard about you before and suspect your a cop or some other low life. Your opinion has no importance.
As to agreeing with people I beleive you started the ball rolling by accusing me of being a drug addict.
Now fuck off and die."

I'm really scared now, and I'm not even a cop!

[SixPackBack]

..........

[jrandom]

<img src=http://wase.urz.uni-magdeburg.de/bollin/renbo/kuh3/arguing.jpg></img>

[limbimtimwim]

While I can suppose that she has done more than sell pot to end up in prison. Or she has been caught lots of times selling pot that she has ended prison. For whatever reason, she is not in the lowest security part of the prison, so something is amiss.

But what strikes me about this is the overriding thought: It's a fucked up society when pregnant woman are being sent to prison for weed. Now if she was in prison for convictions of being a violent twit face, then that is logical.

The usual way weed messes up society is all the shit that goes on around the drug dealing, not the drug itself. While I'll admit weed can do some people's heads in, the damage done to world by alcohol, abusive parents and religion far outweighs what weed ever did, or will ever do.

I fail to see how being a good parent and selling weed is mutually exclusive. However being a good parent and being in jail almost certainly is.

[limbimtimwim]

And I'm afraid I have to agree with Finn - some people should not be allowed to breed.Wow. Are you serious? I mean, 100% serious?

No joke: Do you agree with what is going on in this photograph?

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/Selection_Birkenau_ramp.jpg">

It's not a huge leap..

[jrandom]

Wow. Are you serious? I mean, 100% serious?

I think she is.

I realise that I triggered Godwin's Law a few posts back, but in Beemer's case, it's justified.

[candor]

It sounds like the cops had it in for the family - could hate him and have punished her (via charges) to teach them both a lesson for being who they are or knowing who they know.

Why the high classification for a petty pot peddler? Must be more than meets the eye. Either..... she's dodgy.... or has been marked for a bad time by someone in the system.

I don't trust what I read in papers. Or what the charge sheet says. Or what the cops necessarily say - or the crims. I know they all lie from experience :yes: Thi story is only a quarter told.

Still, many crims breed every time they are going to court for something imprisonable as a way to get judicial sympathy. Letting them keep the babies in nice flats inside with lots of support will only encourage that.

[Mr. Peanut]

It's an unfortunate situation, such is the nature of a chaotic world. I don't think there's always an answer.

To be honest, I don't think our government is qualified to look after new souls.

At least this child is receiving adequate attention, it's the unheard cases I worry about.

[Beemer]

Wow. Are you serious? I mean, 100% serious?

No joke: Do you agree with what is going on in this photograph?

It's not a huge leap..

Considering I come from a Jewish background I find that quite offensive. It is a huge leap to take my statements that I don't feel people should automatically have the right to breed if some of them spend most of their lives in prison and the kids end up suffering as supporting mass genocide.

Do YOU think that drug-addled criminals deserve to have children? Or to put it another way, do you think children deserve to have drug-addled, criminal parents?

[Beemer]

*Oh christ the baby is cryin'...wipe his chin!!*

Is that you in the video?

[jazbug5]

Considering I come from a Jewish background I find that quite offensive. It is a huge leap to take my statements that I don't feel people should automatically have the right to breed if some of them spend most of their lives in prison and the kids end up suffering as supporting mass genocide.

Do YOU think that drug-addled criminals deserve to have children? Or to put it another way, do you think children deserve to have drug-addled, criminal parents?

Hmmm. Tabloid thinking. Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you showed a little more insight rather than tossing labels about like this..?

[Beemer]

Hmmm. Tabloid thinking. Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you showed a little more insight rather than tossing labels about like this..?

Sorry? I don't exactly understand what you are on about here. Tabloid thinking? Are you implying that because I am a journalist I believe everything I read or toe a particular line? The parents in this instance are both in jail - ergo, they are criminals. The mother has admitted she has a drug problem and it obviously contributed to her imprisonment. What's ambiguous about those statements, and what other labels should I have applied to them? Caring, law-abiding good parents? Get real!

[jazbug5]

You language implies (i.e. 'drug addled criminals') that you prefer not to form your own opinions on a case-by-case basis. This type of mindset is one that bothers me, as it means that you may be prepared to accept the idea that it is fair and acceptable to break up families and demonise them because the government labels them as criminals. The Nazi Germany parallel is, in this instance, an apt one. People accepted the cartoonish scapegoating of Jews and others, and their subsequent annihilation.
It is our duty as human beings to examine the facts and not see others as subhumans automatically simply because we have been told they are 'criminals', immigrants' or whatever else has been deemed to be the big 'threat' this week.

[Beemer]

My opinions on illegal drugs are well known and I make no apology for my views on those who use illegal substances. As long as it is illegal to grow, use or sell cannabis, it will remain a criminal offence. Everyone knows that and yet people who involve themselves in those activities plead harassment when they get caught. I personally believe that removing children from these environments - and not allowing women to have their children with them in prison - is the right thing to do.

How the hell ANY of this relates to what Nazis did to the Jews is beyond me. It's often those who can't articulate their own views who fall back on history and draw comparisons that aren't relevant.

I didn't say these people were subhuman, I said that they didn't deserve to have children because of the way they are leading their lives. If they chose to take part in illegal activities and get caught, what sort of example does it give their children? I would feel the same way if she had been caught knocking over old ladies for their milk money, stealing goods from retail outlets or breaking into homes - all the types of things many petty criminals become involved with.

When I see people who struggle to have children and to care for them throughout their lives I get very pissed off with those who treat it as a right, not a privilege, and those who abuse that right.

[Finn]

Considering I come from a Jewish background I find that quite offensive.

I've got some Jewish blood too. Just enough to make wearing a helmet a difficult task. I cannot completely close my visor.

[jrandom]

I've got some Jewish blood too.

I keep 500ml in the freezer for special occasions.

[Beemer]

I've got some Jewish blood too. Just enough to make wearing a helmet a difficult task. I cannot completely close my visor.

Thankfully I escaped being saddled with that part of being Jewish! But my sister has HUGE ears - dunno where that comes from...

[Finn]

Thankfully I escaped being saddled with that part of being Jewish! But my sister has HUGE ears - dunno where that comes from...

Oh yeah I forgot, I'm not that Jewish. :niceone:

[Hitcher]

But my sister has HUGE ears - dunno where that comes from...

Me neither, but I know why Elephants have got big ears...

[Beemer]

Me neither, but I know why Elephants have got big ears...

So they can hide at the prison (where said sister works) and not stick out, so to speak?

[Hitcher]

So they can hide at the prison (where said sister works) and not stick out, so to speak?

No, because Noddy won't pay the ransom.

[magicfairy]

I If they chose to take part in illegal activities and get caught, what sort of example does it give their children? I would feel the same way if she had been caught knocking over old ladies for their milk money, stealing goods from retail outlets or breaking into homes - all the types of things many petty criminals become involved with.

So ANY illegal activities render us unfit parents who should have our kids taken off them?
Would you have said the same about lesbian, homosexual parents - and yes they do exist - in the early 80s. Take their kids off them cos what they are doing is illegal - then. What about drink drivers, speedsters? More illegal activities that render them bad parents and they should lose their kids? When then anti-smacking laws come in - lock up the 40% of parents who said they will still smack and take thier kids off them too?
And all of those who don't regisiter to vote - that is against the law also.

So I'm curious - what is it?
Lock them all up or do you reserve right to cast judgement on what is a serious enough criminal offence to imprison people and take their kids off them.
I'm curious

[SixPackBack]

...................

[Beemer]

So ANY illegal activities render us unfit parents who should have our kids taken off them?
Would you have said the same about lesbian, homosexual parents - and yes they do exist - in the early 80s. Take their kids off them cos what they are doing is illegal - then. What about drink drivers, speedsters? More illegal activities that render them bad parents and they should lose their kids? When then anti-smacking laws come in - lock up the 40% of parents who said they will still smack and take thier kids off them too?
And all of those who don't regisiter to vote - that is against the law also.

So I'm curious - what is it?
Lock them all up or do you reserve right to cast judgement on what is a serious enough criminal offence to imprison people and take their kids off them.
I'm curious

Again, you are taking this to extremes here. I'm not even going to enter the debate about whether homosexuals or lesbians make good parents but I view that in the same way I view religious freedom - it should never have been a crime to be 'different'. If this makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

As for the others - well, that drunk guy who fell asleep while filling his car with gas recently has just been jailed for three years, so I guess he won't be exercising his right to be a parent any time soon. Not that he was exercising good parental judgement by driving with one of the highest levels of alcohol in his blood while his young (two or three years old) daughter was unrestrained in the back seat.

I'm talking about the acts and the people the vast majority of us would consider criminal - and although technically speeding (drink driving is quite another matter - if they drink and drive, they aren't showing responsible behaviour) is illegal, I doubt many of us would condone removing children from a home where someone likes to speed - unless they do it on a regular basis with the children in the car.

I'm getting sick of saying it, but I HATE ILLEGAL DRUGS. This woman was caught selling - and it appears also using - ILLEGAL DRUGS - and that is what my argument is about. Hell, I don't even like kids but I think every child deserves the right to grow up in a safe environment. Don't you?

[SixPackBack]

...................

[Beemer]

Cute baby huh......now imagine it scream as its torn away from mum.

Now you're talking!

[SixPackBack]

....................

[Beemer]

I've just been red repped and asked why, as a person with no kids, I am commenting in a thread like this. Well, for a start, I was the one who began the thread because I felt it would spark some debate. I was right - and most of it has been civil. But getting red-repped several times in the same thread by the same person for expressing my opinion is getting a little tiresome. Either express your opinions and let others agree or disagree as they see fit, or fuck off.

[Beemer]

My advice?.....seriously consider sterilisation.

I bet your mother wishes SHE had. :whocares: Besides, I don’t need to be sterilised because I know how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, don’t have any peculiar religious hang ups about managing fertility issues and don’t plan to live off the State if anything unfortunate should happen.

[magicfairy]

I'm getting sick of saying it, but I HATE ILLEGAL DRUGS. This woman was caught selling - and it appears also using - ILLEGAL DRUGS - and that is what my argument is about. Hell, I don't even like kids but I think every child deserves the right to grow up in a safe environment. Don't you?
Actually I think I have a bit of experience to offer here.
My mother is an alcholic (legal drug) and we had some pretty miserable experiences growing up because of it (home alone, neglect, poverty,emotional abuse) and she was also addicted to LEGAL prescription drugs. Valium and the like, given out by GP

It never occurred to anyone that we were at risk (this is the 60s and 70s) because nothing she was doing was illegal.

I was also married to an alcoholic for many years. It took me a while to recognise that he was because as he was a fisherman he did not drink all the time. But when he started he could not stop. Never abusive but caused financial and emotional problems and eventually caused our marriage to fail.

I have now been very happily living with someone for 12 years who - shock horror - doesn't have a problem with LEGAL drugs but has been known to smoke a bit of POT.
And you know what - I would have that ANY DAY - compared to the effect those legal drugs had on my life. Now I am just talking pot here, not speed, heroin or any of those other dangerous drugs.

I don't care what the law says, from personal experience I KNOW which was more damaging by about a million light years. If only my mums and husbands problem had been with that particular illegal drug, my life would have been a whole lot better.

[Grahameeboy]

Tis simple folks...as a parent you owe a huge responsibility towards your kid(s) and if you do something that seriously breaches that responsibility then there are going to be consequences and I think we forget that it is the safety and care of the innocent child that is the priority and not the parent.

In this case, the Mother will only be in prison for 5 months. Probably and hopefully enough time for her to think about what she has done and to make some important life decisions.

The kid is being well cared for (priority) by a family member so I think the services have done the right thing.

As for the Father who was severely drunk in charge of his vehicle whilst looking after is Son. 3 years in prison seems harsh when I know of someone who was drunk and killed his best mate who was the front seat passenger and got 1 year in prison...........but at the end of the day he made a bad decision and is paying the consequences and should a Son be exposed to this lack of responsibility.

My 3pence worth.

[Grahameeboy]

I've just been red repped and asked why, as a person with no kids, I am commenting in a thread like this. Well, for a start, I was the one who began the thread because I felt it would spark some debate. I was right - and most of it has been civil. But getting red-repped several times in the same thread by the same person for expressing my opinion is getting a little tiresome. Either express your opinions and let others agree or disagree as they see fit, or fuck off.

Don't worry about it Beemer............they have that choice as do you to simply ignore it.

You don't have to have kids to have the opinion you do and I think it is great that as a non-parent you felt compelled to raise this topic and at least you have been honest about it.

[SixPackBack]

....................

[Grahameeboy]

Must...re...sist.....no its no good beemer, combine the self confessed hate of children and drugs it seems you are the last person to comment in this thread. Its nothing more than an anus vent, best not to get pissy when some members find your Nazi views intolerable.

In the mean time perhaps this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1017551&postcount=63) could placate you?

He said he didn't like kids.............not 'hate'..........you 'hate' the Police.....there endeth the lesson.........

[mstriumph]

we have a new puppy

we thought long and hard before we got him
- would we have enuff time and resource to care for him properly? feed him? exercise him? take him for his vet-checks? teach him how to be a member of our 'pack'?- did we have the comittment needed to ensure he had safe space to run and grow, toys to keep him amused and a roof over his head to keep him dry and warm?

it irritates the bejaysus outta me that people continue to have CHILDREN without a passing THOUGHT about any of the above ............ and then expect the rest of us to pick up the pieces when things go wrong :angry:

............ at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, children are way more important than puppies

[Finn]

Must...re...sist.....no its no good beemer, combine the self confessed hate of children and drugs it seems you are the last person to comment in this thread. Its nothing more than an anus vent, best not to get pissy when some members find your Nazi views intolerable.

In the mean time perhaps this post (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1017551&postcount=63) could placate you?

Hmmmm. Most of the bitches in government hate kids and drugs but you allow them to make decisions on how you should raise your children.

[SixPackBack]

..................

[ManDownUnder]

............ at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, children are way more important than puppies

(not having a go) The other beleedin' obvious thing is that it's a lot more fun to start making a kid than it is to go puppy shopping. Hell I could practice that all day

Ladies - any volunteers?

[SixPackBack]

...................

[mstriumph]

(not having a go) The other beleedin' obvious thing is that it's a lot more fun to start making a kid than it is to go puppy shopping. .............

:innocent: granted - but practicing is ONE thing ... swinging into full-scale production of a cute and tiny despot that could well spell the end of 'sex as we know it' is quite another!

.................... the really nice thing about puppies is they NEVER burst into your bedroom unannounced demanding a glass or water or whatever after 'lights out' :love:

[Grahameeboy]

Incorrect..........

I am pleased............

[SixPackBack]

....................

[mstriumph]

there's something fundementally WRONG with that post SPB - dunno quite wat it is but ----------- give me time and .........

[limbimtimwim]

Considering I come from a Jewish background I find that quite offensive. It is a huge leap to take my statements that I don't feel people should automatically have the right to breed if some of them spend most of their lives in prison and the kids end up suffering as supporting mass genocide.If you don't mind offending me and others with your opinions, I don't mind offending you.
I make NO apology for my views on people who become involved in selling illegal drugs and if that sickens you, tough shit.Okay, I'll clarify, since it appears I need to spell it out: You are supporting the removal of a certain type of person from the gene pool. You've said that you don't think that drug dealers should be able to breed. The nazis decided they didn't like a certain type of person, and decided to remove them from the gene pool. If you look at this from a high level evolutionary viewpoint, you propose changing humanity to suit what you would like. Where did you not say that?

I can cut it another way if you like.

Should the law draw a line for sub optimal birth conditions? Perhaps parents should be rated on some sort of score card.

Drug dealer? -10pts
In prison? -20pts
High income? +20pts
White? +10pts
Not white? -10pts
Mother >35yrs? -10pts
Stable relationship with opposite sex? +10pts
More than 80pts on your drivers license? -20pts

Don't make the required 100pts? Oh I'm sorry, the state doesn't like you. You'll be made to take this pill every day until you score enough points.

Where do we draw the line?
I didn't say these people were subhuman, I said that they didn't deserve to have children because of the way they are leading their lives. If they chose to take part in illegal activities and get caught, what sort of example does it give their children?Illegal does necessarily mean that it is a bad example. In Iran a woman cannot show her face in public: If a mother walks outside in Iran without covering her head in protest and then gets arrested, has she set a good or bad example for her children?

Just because it is legal doesn't make it right sometimes either. How about the parent who gets drunk all the time and gets the the sack from work because they are always hung over? Not illegal, but is that a good or bad example for a child?
Do YOU think that drug-addled criminals deserve to have children? Or to put it another way, do you think children deserve to have drug-addled, criminal parents?In both cases it seems you are assuming that being a drug dealer makes you the worst possible parent. I'll tell you now, there is no 100% correlation.

Let me tell you about a friend of mine I have known for about 14 years. When you are 25, that's a pretty major chunk of your life. Her house is filled with injured, abandoned and sick animals. She is attentive (Small birds have to be fed often or could die, she tells me) to their needs. She even looks after cats, feeds them well, though she does not like them much because they cause most of the injured avians that come her way.

One day she even risked her neck to save two children from harm.

She's a fricken' hero. She's the sort of person everyone should strive to be. If she lived in a small town, small newspapers would write about her for want of stories.

She sounds like she'd make a super parent, doesn't she?

I'd name this super person, but I can't. Because she sells weed. Would you deny her the right to have children because she breaks a law?

Oh yes, you read that correctly. Everyone has the right to have children, it is embodied in their right to life. Reproduction is simply part of life and there is no life without reproduction. Deny someone reproduction and you effectively kill them.

[Hitcher]

Reproduction is simply part of life and there is no life without reproduction.
Thank you for snuffing out my hopes and dreams. I am indebted to caring, sensitive folk such as yourself for filling my life with purpose.

[Grahameeboy]

I really don't think Beemer was offending anyone with her opinions. I was not offended so guess it is each of our own decisions whether to feel offended or just get over it, cause it ain't Beemer causing it.

I have just read Beemers posts and cannot work out where you have got a lot of your points from. But that's cool cause you are entitled to have your opinion as are all of us but we have to be careful to avoid putting too much into what someone is saying and taking out more that there actually is.

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

I bet your mother wishes SHE had. :whocares: Besides, I don’t need to be sterilised because I know how to prevent unwanted pregnancies, don’t have any peculiar religious hang ups about managing fertility issues and don’t plan to live off the State if anything unfortunate should happen.

You go girl. Precisely my sentiments. Birth control has been around for decades - sure there is the odd slip up on the pill or other forms - but not the bloody amount of unplanned pregnancies in this country!

Cannot understand the narrow mindedness re people that don't have children cannot comment - hello - we were all a child once. So a woman that has adopted a child wouldn't know about children because she hadn't physically given birth???

[limbimtimwim]

I really don't think Beemer was offending anyone with her opinions. I was not offended so guess it is each of our own decisions whether to feel offended or just get over it, cause it ain't Beemer causing it.I'm not offended. Beemer started a discussion, I disagreed with her opinion and I am explaining why. It seemed to me her position was illogical and simplistic, and I would like some clarification as to her thinking so that perhaps the error in my thinking could be rectified. If such an error exists.

[limbimtimwim]

Thank you for snuffing out my hopes and dreams. I am indebted to caring, sensitive folk such as yourself for filling my life with purpose.Oh well, you can always PRACTICE reproduction to fulfill any base desires you have.

[Grahameeboy]

I'm not offended. Beemer started a discussion, I disagreed with her opinion and I am explaining why. It seemed to me her position was illogical and simplistic, and I would like some clarification as to her thinking so that perhaps the error in my thinking could be rectified. If such an error exists.

:confused: "If you don't mind offending me...."

I did not know that illogical and simplistic when together but I guess you learn eh?

[Ixion]

,,

Should the law draw a line for sub optimal birth conditions? Perhaps parents should be rated on some sort of score card.

Drug dealer? -10pts
In prison? -20pts
High income? +20pts
White? +10pts
Not white? -10pts
Mother >35yrs? -10pts
Stable relationship with opposite sex? +10pts
More than 80pts on your drivers license? -20pts

Don't make the required 100pts? Oh I'm sorry, the state doesn't like you. You'll be made to take this pill every day until you score enough points.



Jolly good idea. Not a new one of course. Come the Revolution we'll implement something along those lines. Your criteria and weightings need revision, you seem hung up on issues of legality. But the general idea is excellent. Society needs strong healthy intelligent progeny . BTW , bear in mind of course that the necessary reproductive lockdown of inferior social units will apply to male as well as female. No good identifying our high grade breeding units if we're going to allow them to be inseminated by sub standard males.


Oh yes, you read that correctly. Everyone has the right to have children, it is embodied in their right to life. Reproduction is simply part of life and there is no life without reproduction. Deny someone reproduction and you effectively kill them.

What humbug . Why does "everyone have the right to have children"?. and even it were so, there is certainly no right to expect the rest of society to pick up the tab for rearing , victualling, medicating and imprisoning the resulting brats. Why should taxpayers pay a fortune to cover the cost of raising no-hopers?

Much better to prevent the breeding of inferior lines in the first place , than have to deal with the problems they and their defective parents cause later. It's no different to what every animal breeder does, why should humans be any different?

As for "Deny someone reproduction and you effectively kill them", you are spouting arrant nonsense. I have no children, and I ain't dead. Are you arguing that the childless *deserve* to be dead?

[candor]

. Everyone has the right to have children, it is embodied in their right to life. Reproduction is simply part of life and there is no life without reproduction. Deny someone reproduction and you effectively kill them.

Most of post was fine but must add my dissension to the chorus re above insert, ones life and life is not dependent on offspring or genetic transmission into the future.

My genes are not unique. They're shared in different and maybe rarely same mixes with all other humans and in part mixes with animals so if I reneg on breeding the world is none the richer or the poorer.

I would say 'give some people reproduction and you effectively kill them' not the other way around. Granted some people experience grief from inabiliy to breed but that in no way equates to death of that person. Or if it does it would judge them either pretty lacking in identity or else very egotistical.

There are certainly some people who should not have the right to have children. I know ones who think hat of themselves and so impose a ban. I know drug users who have made that choice. I have chosen not to as it would interfere with my life plans and I'm not willing to sacrifice. In that way I honor the right of kids not to get second best as Beemer is advocating.

Having kids is not a right. Or dogs as someone said. You do it only if you believe you are up for making a good job of it I say, and if you are failing or sure you will then you do whats best for the kid which could be adoption.

Thats whats missing in todays world. Not enough of a moral code to give kids up if its REALLY best, so lots of great parents have to go overseas to adopt.

[SixPackBack]

..................

[Ixion]

Their criteria were silly , and their grasp of genetics defective.

Your understanding of eugenics is antiquated. The Chinese are nowdays the leaders in this field , Google "China eugenics" for an introduction, or "Maternal and Infant Health Care Law" +China

[Biff]

In Iran a woman cannot show her face in public: If a mother walks outside in Iran without covering her head in protest and then gets arrested, has she set a good or bad example for her children?

Not true actualamy. They have to wear head scarves from the age of 9 upwards. Because at age 9 the Highertrollers believe they're of 'age'. But most ladies let them fall back over their heads anyhoo. Oh...and they must cover their arses, just in case you're into arses.

Pedant mode off, and apologies for the minor diversion in topicality.

Totally with you on the rest.

[limbimtimwim]

Your criteria and weightings need revision, you seem hung up on issues of legality. That was a point I was trying to make, legality (Especially something so trivial as wacky-baccy) of your lifestyle shouldn't mean you can't have children.

No good identifying our high grade breeding units if we're going to allow them to be inseminated by sub standard males.Chicks dig us sub-standard types. They love me. ;)
What humbug . Why does "everyone have the right to have children"?.Perhaps I was not clear enough. Because everyone has the right to life (Article 3 of the UDHR), I figure life isn't worth living on the largest scale of view if you cannot reproduce.
As long as they are not taking other's lives of course. Right to life then, I'll agree is forfeit.
and even it were so, there is certainly no right to expect the rest of society to pick up the tab for rearing , victualling, medicating and imprisoning the resulting brats. Why should taxpayers pay a fortune to cover the cost of raising no-hopers?I have no comeback for that. I can't come up with an alternative that would be cheaper than culling them off. But I guess the luxury of being rich is that we can afford not to cull them off. Perhaps shipping them to Australia would solve this problem? That would keep everyone happy.
Much better to prevent the breeding of inferior lines in the first place , than have to deal with the problems they and their defective parents cause later. It's no different to what every animal breeder does, why should humans be any different?Because we'd get it wrong. Although it is kinda religious to stick to idea that humans are 'worth' more than all the other species, I'll stick to it because I think it is our human nature to think such delusions. Could you, in a position of power, truncate a human bloodline for the betterment of society as a whole? Are you Spock?
<img src="http://downloads.redjupiter.com/users/images/FuturePositiveManilaSitesCom/Spock.jpg"> "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"


As for "Deny someone reproduction and you effectively kill them", you are spouting arrant nonsense. I have no children, and I ain't dead. Are you arguing that the childless *deserve* to be dead?I meant from an evolutionary standpoint. Darwin would have seen a sterile organism was largely useless, correct? Okay, so there are exceptions I am sure, olive trees spring to mind.

I don't argue that the childless deserve to be dead, I would propose however that the childless are pointless in the end. Perhaps if a childless contributed something useful to society then you wouldn't be so useless, but you don't benefit humankind to it's fullest by not reproducing because you are not putting out those different genes that are required to evolve.

On a personal note, I have no plans to have children. I think I would make a good father, but right now I am enjoying living for me.

[Biff]

Your veiws echo with almost pin point accuracy those of Nazi's.


Except our red friend comes from the opposite end of the political spectrum. Like if Hitler were acid, Ixion would be alkali. It burns either way.

[limbimtimwim]

Your understanding of eugenics is antiquated. The Chinese are nowdays the leaders in this field , Google "China eugenics" for an introduction, or "Maternal and Infant Health Care Law" +ChinaBut the Chinese government is the world biggest club of sick murdering fuckers on the planet. You can't seriously use them as an example of anything except how not to do things?

[Patrick]

Patrick,beemer your twisted sick and heartless. Imune from the hypocrisy current laws concerning alcohol and tobacco present.

Nope... hate cigarette smoke and lock up plenty of drink drivers too

[Patrick]

I will keep my opinions of beemer and patrick to myself(theyre both to busy being blowhards to listen anyway)If this gal had a history of hard drugs and or selling to people under 18 then maybe she was aware that society has a tiny problem with this.If she was just selling a bit of weed as the government hasnt found a way of taxing it(its ok to decriminilise prostitution which has many drug deals over tax payed fees)then the judge was a bit harsh.The cops would be better placed if we had a system where they could arrest and see fair penalty of the HARD criminals.Taking a baby off a mother who is in prison is cruel if just for innocent repettative pot sales.The dad was probably the grower who got his arse licked by the law.So an easy case for the officers aye.?????I never smoked tobacco around my baby and to this day never smoke pot around my child ... if any one sold it to him before hes 18 ill be livid!!I liken it to alcahol and tobacco......god I say it gambling!!!!Does that mean I deserved to go to jail and lose my child because I may have a bit of personal weed which I choose to use in a controlled manner.........whatever......one law doesnt work for everybody.....it just keeps cops in a job and gas in the bags

Yep, good on ya... keep your opinion to yourself then go about stating what they are... pfffttttt... tits in a tangle today sweetie?

In prison for a little bit of dope? Has a high security rating so she can't be housed in the units with her baby? Yep, sounds like she is in there for possessing a little bit of dope alright...

Riiiiiiggggghhhhhtt.

I will keep my opinion of you to myself......

[yungatart]

This is a little like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted...for better or for worse this child has got those parents...can't do much about that now...what should be done is to help these parents to become better parents, while they are inside, so that on their release, this family can be productive members of society. That would be true rehabilitation, IMO.
For what its worth, I don't do illegal/recreational drugs, but I don't necessarily believe that those who do, are unfit to be parents.

[SixPackBack]

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[Patrick]

Both are legal patrick.......abuse at will!!

Drink driving is legal?:doh:

[Beemer]

I will keep my opinions of beemer and patrick to myself(theyre both to busy being blowhards to listen anyway)

This belongs with other similar statements that mean the opposite, like "I don't want to upset you, but..." and "I really shouldn't be telling you this, but..."

I didn't come on here asking people to AGREE with me, but I did expect that those who wanted to debate the issue would come to the table with their own views and opinions and not just attack like a rottie.

And Fish - we don't live in Amsterdam so what's your point. Likening me and others to Hitler is getting a bit tired so move along.

[magicfairy]

I didn't come on here asking people to AGREE with me, but I did expect that those who wanted to debate the issue would come to the table with their own views and opinions and not just attack like a rottie.


Exactly, we can all disagree but remain civil - agreeing to disagree. Like adults should.

[Grahameeboy]

Just cut and paste what I posted in the 'Stolen Merc' thread.

In the Herald today it says that this guy's Family had been under the care of Social Services since he was 2 which links up nicely with the Baby / Mother thread which became a battle with opinions divided.

This opens up a whole can of worms doesn't it.

- Did Social Services mess up?
- Was it the constant and unabaiting family issues that could not be resolved by Social Services that messed up?

I guess you could say that in some part they all messed up so referring back to the subject matter of this Post does anyone think or want to re-think about whether for the 5 month period that the Mother is in prison, what has happened is the right thing to do?

You see we can all draw upon our own bad family experiences and can say we can turned out allright, however, each case is different and it is all down to decisional balance which is never easy.

[SixPackBack]

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[jrandom]

Fish - we don't live in Amsterdam so what's your point.

I am pointing out that you're treating the letter of the law as an objective moral standard, which it simply isn't. It's fallacious to use the fact that something is illegal as justification for its illegality.

[Beemer]

Interesting choice of words. Pretty sure I could get another 2 pages out of you with that comment, particularly if the dog was female.

You must really be 'spreading the love' around if you have managed to red rep me FIVE times for this thread. You must be a really sad loser if a woman's comments can upset you so much.

[SixPackBack]

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[ManDownUnder]

I am pointing out that you're treating the letter of the law as an objective moral standard, which it simply isn't. It's fallacious to use the fact that something is illegal as justification for its illegality.

Agreed entirely (talk about a circular definition)... but...

I'd invite one and all to examine the effects, positive and negative, of various substances in the house and their impact on child rearing/upbringing. I have three particular concerns:

Anything producing fumes gives a child little choice except to partake unless those smoking them are extraordinarily careful.

At a young age a lot of development happens - rapidly. I'm not qualified to tell which of them are more critical than others, but the brain, lungs, liver and kidneys all seem to be obvious initial targets of airborn chemicals.

Breast milk will also carry some of the drugs to the child, albeit in a diluted dose, possibly altered in composition while in transit from the lungs to milk ducts.

All of the above possibilities concern me. I am aware it is not an exhaustive list - I'm sure there are other ares of possible concern. Fish - as you say the legality of a substance is not a standard against which a moral (and I pose medical) code can be based. I'd add for consideration that something not yet illegal (Party pills etc come to mind) can possibly be just as damaging to the health of children.

Child welfare is paramount and all reasonable steps need to be taken to ensure the innocents are not abused by malice - or oversight. I suggest some extraordinary steps may be warranted on occasion too.

[jazbug5]

- Did Social Services mess up?
- Was it the constant and unabaiting family issues that could not be resolved by Social Services that messed up?

I guess you could say that in some part they all messed up so referring back to the subject matter of this Post does anyone think or want to re-think about whether for the 5 month period that the Mother is in prison, what has happened is the right thing to do?

You see we can all draw upon our own bad family experiences and can say we can turned out allright, however, each case is different and it is all down to decisional balance which is never easy.

No, it isn't easy. At all. Particularly as nobody here seems to be (as yet) in possession of any actual facts partaining to this case. We all appear to have made at least some assumptions, though.
A baby needs to be with its mother. Five months is a very, very long time in infant development. Yes, occasionally it does happen that babies are born to women who are unmaternal or who are dangerous to their offspring. This doesn't necessarily mean that the mother will be a criminal. Or that a 'criminal' will be, ergo, an unfit parent. (Nelson Mandela was an incarcerated 'criminal' for thirty years or more, according to the laws of South Africa- but many people would consider him to be the father of modern post Apartheid South Africa.)

People just love to judge others. I've seen kids taken into care because someone had a grudge against a parent and gave false information to social services. And it's interesting how certain 'groups' of people are more prone to having their kids taken first and questions asked later. In one case I'm thinking of, the kid was taught to thieve by other kids in care, and how to sniff gas... which, along with the emotional trauma, led to heavy drug use. Brilliant outcome.

[Deano]

Having kids isn't a right ? In this nanny state it sure is. It isn't a privilege as it isn't just the privileged who can have children.

Having kids is as natural as breathing - is breathing a right ?

[Patrick]

Oh well, was good while it lasted... the little tacker can have his mummys drugged milk after all...

She applied for, and is able complete, Home Detention for her massive five months term, which in reality is only 2 months, which in reality is almost over....

[limbimtimwim]

zOsnlVEanxk

They have the right attitude

[SixPackBack]

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