Which offence is MOST likely to cause an accident.

[Jantar]

The items about the the teenager who caused a crash in a stolen Mercedes which killed two people, and the guy who was so pissed he fell asleep while filling his car have helped to highlight some extreme inconsistancies in applying penalties. So steal a car, run from the police, kill two people and injure another two and the penalty is 3 months. Drink & drive with the potential to cause harm, but not actually injure anyone, and the penalty is 18 months. It is way past time that a more coherent penalty system was put in place.

But any new penalty system must be consistant right across the spectra of offences. Which of these offences do you consider most likely to be the primary cause an accident.

[Grahameeboy]

Well both have the potential but the police chase has the MOST.

I know the guy stole a Merc, however, the question is "How more likely is an accident in a Police chase"..........

[rwh]

So steal a car, run from the police, kill two people and injure another two and the penalty is 3 months. Drink & drive with the potential to cause harm, but not actually injure anyone, and the penalty is 18 months.

You missed what I feel is the most important point when trying to compare those sentences - the teenager's was restricted by the limits of the youth court. We don't know what it would have been in the ordinary one.

I pick the red light, on the basis that it's the one that gives the other traffic most confidence in what you're doing.

Richard

[Motu]

Were there any vehicles involved? Like - failing to give way at a give way sign sounds pretty dangerous....but failing to stop at a stop sign not a problem.However if I failed to stop at the stop sign and there was a car coming,then it changes the possibilities.So,in all these activities,was an iniment collision in the mix?

[paturoa]

Tail gating!

The entire AK roading network is covered with about 20mm of tail light plastic and headlignht glass.

[Ixion]

You need to factor in the average serious of the accidents caused, and the delta for repeat offences (eg, you can get a whole string of failing to give ways, same penalty every time, indefinately, whereas a second or subsequent drink drive charge will winch the penalty way up.)

Also, some offences don't in themselves necessarily have an accident causing propensity, but tend statistically to be associated with increased accidents (eg disqualified driving)

[Dafe]

I'm telling you - Both cases have highlighted new blood for prospective future employment as Labour Cabinet Ministers.

[Hitcher]

I remember reading something somewhere once that three things most likely to cause motorcyclists to have an accident were: themselves; intersections and group rides.

[onearmedbandit]

Failing to keep left.

[scumdog]

Watching 'Minority Report" ( and having a drop of red) and I think we need something like that here.

BTW Imagine if the drunk dick had fallen to the grond, dragged the running nozzle with him and the resulting split fuel had caught fire????????

[Hitcher]

Watching 'Minority Report" ( and having a drop of red) and I think we need something like that here.

What, some raving incoherent scantily-clad bint in a sensory deprivation tank?

[scumdog]

What, some raving incoherent scantily-clad bint in a sensory deprivation tank?

Sounds like the story of my life...............

[Jantar]

I'm not going to get into "What If" scenarios with this poll, and there are also some serious accident causing situations that I've not included. (Like fatigue). Instead I've aligned this poll to match some data I'm getting from the MoT via the SafeAs website in order to make a more detailed submission to the MoT.

I realise that this poll is not a random cross section of the motoring public, but the results I use will note this.

[Macktheknife]

Most likely to cause an accident in the list given is the 'fail to stop at red light', because there is most chance of another vehicle coming through on the opposing green.
However, there are many mitigating factors in almost all of the circumstances you have mentioned. Such as time of day/night, road conditions, traffic flow and weather.
E.g.; riding outside of licence conditions while speeding on a sunny country road at 2pm is quite different to say, doing the same on the Auckland motorway system at 5pm on a week day in the rain.
Additionally there is the impact of repeat offending, I read somewhere recently that a guy went to court in NZ on his 17th DIC offence, this man is clearly a menace to society and should be locked up. He also had no licence so this is obviously not enough to stop him.
I take your point about consistency but would advise caution on comparing some things, discretion is a valuable and important part of true justice. (which sometimes happens here honest!)

[inlinefour]

The items about the the teenager who caused a crash in a stolen Mercedes which killed two people, and the guy who was so pissed he fell asleep while filling his car have helped to highlight some extreme inconsistancies in applying penalties. So steal a car, run from the police, kill two people and injure another two and the penalty is 3 months. Drink & drive with the potential to cause harm, but not actually injure anyone, and the penalty is 18 months. It is way past time that a more coherent penalty system was put in place.

But any new penalty system must be consistant right across the spectra of offences. Which of these offences do you consider most likely to be the primary cause an accident.


You have actually missed the item that I consider to be the biggest contriution to MVAs in New Zealand, fatigue. E.G. Falling asleep at the wheel/handlebars/woteva...

[Grahameeboy]

You have actually missed the item that I consider to be the biggest contriution to MVAs in New Zealand, fatigue.

Agree....I think a survey in the UK had this the top offender with speed about 3rd or 4th.

[Sanx]

There's an item missing off that poll, "Riding / driving too fast for the conditions", which is very likely to cause an accident. Unfortunately, it's not really an offence.

I think it's a close run between drink-driving and running red lights. Failing to stop at a stop sign can cover anything from driving through it without looking or braking to braking down to 2kph but not coming to a complete stop. The scale of the offence would need to be quantified.

As for the teenage moron in the Merc. That's possibly one of the instances where the cops should refrain from chasing. Of course, it's very difficult to judge this at the time, and we're all looking at it with 20/20 hindsight. However, there is evidence to suggest that if a vehicle doesn't pull over immediately when signalled but speeds up, the Police should simply stop chasing. If the driver's going to run, he's going to run harder and faster with cop car following him. And that's when accidents happen.

I understand the Police's arguments, but they can either choose to catch the fuckwits by other means (track 'em via helicopter, for instance) and hope they don't cause any accidents in the mean time, or chase them by car and provoke the drvier into doing something even more stupid. Either way, I'm glad I don't have to make that decision and glad I don't have to justify said decision afterwards when it all goes pear-shaped.

[more_fasterer]

If failing to keep left = crossing the centreline into the path of oncoming traffic, then it's pretty damn likely that a fatal accident will occur.

These classes all sound a bit too generic and over-encompassing - they've got a strong LTNZ flavour to them.

[Ms Piggy]

You missed what I feel is the most important point when trying to compare those sentences - the teenager's was restricted by the limits of the youth court. We don't know what it would have been in the ordinary one.


Yes Richard is right - he was given the harshest penalty that could be given to because it was handled through the Youth Justice system. Although it seems quite odd since the 12 year old boy that was with the group who murdered Michael Choy (while he was delivering pizza) was sent to jail. Sorry :Offtopic:

On topic: Running a red light surely? If you run a red light then there will almost certainly be traffic coming in the other direction.

[Jantar]

You have actually missed the item that I consider to be the biggest contriution to MVAs in New Zealand, fatigue. E.G. Falling asleep at the wheel/handlebars/woteva...


Agree....I think a survey in the UK had this the top offender with speed about 3rd or 4th.



These classes all sound a bit too generic and over-encompassing - they've got a strong LTNZ flavour to them.

You are all correct. As I already noted in this comment earlier in the thread.


I'm not going to get into "What If" scenarios with this poll, and there are also some serious accident causing situations that I've not included. (Like fatigue). Instead I've aligned this poll to match some data I'm getting from the MoT via the SafeAs website in order to make a more detailed submission to the MoT..

I haven't included anything that is not an offence, that is why fatigue has been left off the list. Have a look at http://www.safeas.govt.nz/smf/index.php?topic=577.0
and you'll get an idea of why I'm running this question as a poll.

[Bnonn]

I choose failing to give way at an uncontrolled intersection; but what I really mean is, "car turning in front of oncoming motorbike".

That is the most common cause of motorcycle accidents. At least, it is in the US, and that's the event which has caused me more frayed nerves than any other.

[Toaster]

The poll is too simple. Each event's likeliness to cause a crash depends on the individual circumstances. I am sure LTNZ has stats on the most common or regular factors/events involved.

[breakaway]

Drink Driving - High Risk

Failing to keep left - Medium Risk
Changing lanes without indicating - Medium Risk
Failing to give way at a give way sign - Medium Risk
Failing to give way at an uncontrolled intersection - Medium Risk
Failing to stop at a stop sign - Medium Risk
Failing to stop at a red light - Medium Risk

Driving/Riding outside the conditions of license - Low Risk

My opinion. As someone already pointed out, more specific information is needed to judge the risk factor of each offense.

[Street Gerbil]

DUI and driving/riding when exhausted. Even worse than DUI because where a drunk or stoner may act rationally by accident, the one asleep at the wheel never will.

[scumdog]

DUI and driving/riding when exhausted. Even worse than DUI because where a drunk or stoner may act rationally by accident, the one asleep at the wheel never will.

Often linked - the driver fell asleep because they were stoned/drunk

But if they are sober and nod-off they MAY at least correct their driving a tad quicker should they wake up.

Not condoning driving/riding when totally exhausted mind.

[candor]

There is a special charge code for failing to keep left and killing someone in light of that this causes a large proportion of the toll. But our cops never use it as they're slack. From memory it's section 39, and means a slightly stiffer soft penalty may be contemplated. There seems to be no minimum penalties so if a Judge is feeling good you may get off scot free if you can act sorry.

The 12 yr old could be sent to jail because the CYPFs Act allows transfer to adult court for certain indictable offenses like rape. Road homicide is not one of the offences in the CYPF Act list as it is considered a non violent not too serious crime in NZ, only in NZ.

Even if charged with manslaughter over a traffic killing its entirely possible to never see prison walls, as with the guy who ran over a unionist at Lyttelton.

[peasea]

.........the question is "How more likely is an accident in a Police chase"..........

Start with shitloads and work your way back.

It's really cops and robbers on this site isn't it?

[candor]

The poll is too simple. Each event's likeliness to cause a crash depends on the individual circumstances. I am sure LTNZ has stats on the most common or regular factors/events involved.

How people die in crashes in NZ

1 in 10 people killed are pedestrians or cyclists, pedestrians are most often killed on a straight road section, due to being hit by a car impacting in excess of 40 k/ph.

At least a quarter of the time the vehicle driver is drunk or stoned; so pedestrians should always walk well back from the kerbside to reduce exposure risk to kerb climbers.

Though cyclists are on the road more often they are the minority among vulnerable road users dying. A 10 year old helmeted cyclist from Manawatu explained surviving a 100 k/ph hit and run with nary a scratch by the height his bike gave.

4 in 10 people to die on NZ roads are killed due to side impacts. These are usually survivable given a well designed vehicle, seatbelt use and an impact speed of under 50 k/ph.

One of the four dies as a result of pulling out into the stream of traffic on a main road without proper checking. The rest will have experienced loss of control in (mostly) open speed zones before striking road side objects, usually trees according to LTNZ (2003).

The other 5 out of 10 people to die on NZ roads are killed in a head-on collision generally because someone failed to keep left. Nearly half these people will have collided with a truck on a primitive undivided main route.

This will happen more often in future as the haulage industry is set to boom - 30% increase in medium term.

Head-ons are the leading cause of NZ motorcyclist deaths, and this (from Police fines statistics) seems due to many Kiwi cars failing to keep left. Caused often by fatigue, drugs, alcohol or 10% of the time tourist status.

For car drivers frontal collisions are likely to be survivable only when the combined speed of vehicles is no higher than 140 k/ph, when they are traveling in a well designed vehicle to start with and given they have their seatbelt in use.

Up to 70% of New Zealands vehicle stock is frontally unfit for the purpose of open road travel (does not meet ECE standards) - so even travelling at a constant speed of 40 k/ph on highways would give many Kiwis no ironclad guarantee of head-on survival.

Tony Paynes research suggest low grade vehicles increase the numbers of of youth and elderly deceasing in crashes by a further 30% as they tend to favour the small to medium sized early 1990s 'death traps'.

[Toaster]

Cool stuff dude. Did they have anything about those who were stoned? It may be interesting for those that seem to think riding or driving while stoned is a good idea.

[Jahdafario]

Wheres the offence option for the vehicle user fails to stop at a red light and T-bones the biker?

Its still an offence, and its MOST LIKELY to cause an accident because its fact, see stats nz or the LTSA website, I think they have the daily update info on the road tolls

[Jahdafario]

my bad, candors got it covered, but it should still be an option

[Jantar]

Ok, now we can clearly see what we, as motorcyclists, see as being the greatest cause of accidents. Here are the numbers of tickets issued (or offences reported) for 2006

Exceeding the speed limit: 740,120
Driving/Riding outside the conditions of licence: 114,191
Exceeding the Breath/Alcohol limit: 22,585
Failing to stop at a stop sign: 16,708
Careless use of a motor vehicle: 10,186
Failing to stop at a red light: 10,142
Failing to give way at an uncontrolled intersection: 3,350
Failing to keep left: 2,089
Failing to give way at a give way sign: 2,126
Changing lanes without indicating: 1,005
Riding more than 2 abreast on a cycle: 7

The total number of infringements and offences reported for 2006 was 1,411,251

From this data it is obvious that what we see as the least likely offences to cause accidents are the one most targetted by the authorities. I shall also post the results of this poll on the SafeAs website.

[Daffyd]

Sure tells ya something. Hell of a pity the powers that be can't (or won't) accept the facts!

[scumdog]

Ok, now we can clearly see what we, as motorcyclists, see as being the greatest cause of accidents. Here are the numbers of tickets issued (or offences reported) for 2006

Exceeding the speed limit: 740,120
Driving/Riding outside the conditions of licence: 114 191
Exceeding the Breath/Alcohol limit: 22,585
Failing to stop at a stop sign: 16,708
Careless use of a motor vehicle: 10,186
Failing to stop at a red light: 10,142
Failing to give way at an uncontrolled intersection: 3,350
Failing to keep left: 2,089
Failing to give way at a give way sign: 2,126
Changing lanes without indicating: 1,005
Riding more than 2 abreast on a cycle: 7

The total number of infringements and offences reported for 2006 was 1,411,251

From this data it is obvious that what we see as the least likely offences to cause accidents are the one most targetted by the authorities. I shall also post the results of this poll on the SafeAs website.

Speeding? - can be absent mindedness
Driving outside terms of licence? NO excuse - if you're THAT absent minded you shouldn't be driving.
EBA? NO EXCUSE!
Failing to stop st Stop sign? No explanation necessary.
Careless Use? Self explanatory.
Failed to stop for red light? Should be shot if you don't.
Failed to give way at uncontrolled intersection? WAKE UP!
Failed to keep left? Ditto (mostly) - the rest of the time you should be shot.
Failed to give way at Give Way sign? Again you need shot.
Change lane without indication? LEARN to USE YOUR INDICATORS bozo!
Riding with more than 2 breasts? Lucky bugger!