Slipper Clutch - Cheating??

[justsomeguy]

Hi there,

Do you all think using a slipper clutch robs the rider from developing good downshifting skills and bike control? Does it allow people to cheat their way out of being smoother riders?

I understand them being used by people like Sugilite or Shaun in open class organised races.

However, for the non-racer even those in the fast groups at trackdays - would they be better off buying a (larger) bike without a slipper clutch and learning on it until they are comfortable with the performance as the next step in their riding education?

Cheers,
JSG

[Ixion]

Well, I would be interested in hearing something about the pros and , especially, the cons of them

I understand how they work. I can see the pro as preventing wheel lock up on a downchange. And taking some strain off the transmission.

What are the disadvantages? Both mechanically and in terms of technique.

As every big single rider finds, downshifts need a good blip and some care if the rear is not to get upset. But even an experienced rider can misjudge things. I suspect it's actually more of an issue on road bikes than racers (and thus the slipper more useful on road bikes) because of the wider gear ratios on the road bike. If the slipper helps smooth that out , that's a good thing , surely?

[Babelfish]

Personally I dont feel its cheating. I dont have one, and never have but if you were to say something like this was cheating then you could equally say that we're all cheating not having to manually advance our spark nowadays...or being able to shift with our foot...or having electronic ignition...tyres, suspension, brakes....its all going to advance as time moves on.

Its all about whether you want to use the tool or not. I dare say for racing, if you are not using the same or better toolbox than the next person then you are at a disadvantage...however on the road its jsut personal preference...use the tool or dont.

I had this conversation with my bro whos a cager...he loves TVR's which are sans ABS and the like which he prefers seeing it as a "drivers car". Definately see his point, and yours, and agree..but cant bring myself to disagree with people using the technology brought forth through evolution.

[riffer]

Well, I don't race. And I've only ridden one bike with a slipper clutch - the 2007 GSXR1000.

And it was absolutely brilliant.

It's progress guys. I'm sure at one time people said steering dampers, disc brakes and hydraulic clutches were cheating too.

Crikey, if they had Kiwibiker in the 30s there probably would have been people bitching about how those new-fangled automatically advancing point ignitions were taking all the skill out of riding too...

So I think they're a good thing.

[Mr. Peanut]

What's engine braking? :mellow:

[Ixion]

..
It's progress guys. I'm sure at one time people said steering dampers, disc brakes and hydraulic clutches were cheating too.

Crikey, if they had Kiwibiker in the 30s there probably would have been people bitching about how those new-fangled automatically advancing point ignitions were taking all the skill out of riding too...



Well, now that you mention it, I have always regarded the loss of the manual advance retard as a detrimental step. And I'm not at all over the line on disk brakes, I still reckon for road riding the 8" TLS takes a lot of beating. We had steering dampers in the 30s, essential with a chair. And I don't reckon anything with bloody hydraulics, what's wrong with a proper cable.

BTW, most bikes back in the 30s had a honking big spring loaded engine shock absorber on the end of the cranskshaft, between the crank and the primary drive. Did exactly the same thing as a slipper cutch, just simpler and a stage further back. So it's not a new idea at all, been around for nearly 100 years.

[cowboyz]

having never ridden with a slipper clutch i cant tell but was wondering what the bike feels like when you downshift too quickly? Is is like a false nuetral till the clutch grabs or like really harsh engine braking without the lockup or is it seemless?

[ninjac]

Its a tool to help you get faster lap times and be safer on the road.
For the road it is a good safety feature. Although you can step the back out buy using the back break too hard, a serious problem occurs when downshifting to early through lack of consentration. The instant resultant back torque will momentarily stall the rotation of the back wheel and brake traction, which could turn into a slide, low-side or high-side.
You are correct in saying that it takes some of the skill out of bike control, but who are we to stop evolution.

[Sensei]

My Aprilia still can lock the back up even with a slipper clutch they aren't full proof . If you don't close the throttle fully it doesn't work but when it does it is very sweet .

[Motu]

Dunno about slipper clutches,but my bike has traction control - is that cheating?

[Babelfish]

I have found if I ride with silk undies I get some good slipper crotch action :mellow:

[86GSXR]

A slipper clutch is? It seems to me that every bike i've ever ridden (since the 70''s at least) has a bit of 'give' in the cork of the clutch. Especiallly imprtant when down changing on a wet road, I know, I did it and almost became a casualty of the downshift.

[cowpoos]

Hi there,

Do you all think using a slipper clutch robs the rider from developing good downshifting skills and bike control? Does it allow people to cheat their way out of being smoother riders?

I understand them being used by people like Sugilite or Shaun in open class organised races.

However, for the non-racer even those in the fast groups at trackdays - would they be better off buying a (larger) bike without a slipper clutch and learning on it until they are comfortable with the performance as the next step in their riding education?

Cheers,
JSG
nah not cheating...its a rider aid...oneless thing for a rider to be doing on a corner entry...that has to be good doesn't it??

[Gremlin]

First of all, it isn't an all in one miracle, that solves rear wheel lock up completely. you do 200 plus, and dump it into first.... it will not iron it out nice and smooth. On the thous, you also have to factor in that they have very tall first gears, which means even without a slipper clutch, it would be much harder to lock the wheel.

Ridden a zx7r, cb900, and short rides on a k6 thou, and 04 zx10 (both have slippers, or back torque limiters). The 7, you definitely had to handle the clutch, but a lot of fun, keeping it on the very verge of locking up. The k6 had the slipper done up too tight I think, which made it more of a hinderance, as it affected pulling away, or dumping the clutch, to dart through traffic. Didn't test it at higher speeds.

The zx10, I definitely felt the slipper work a bit, when I had it for 3 days, going into a roundabout I played on, with the 7r. Almost... disappointing. I also slammed it down several gears to turn into a street, faster than I would on the 7r, and it did it a lot easier. The real hassle on the 10, was if the tyres weren't up to temp, it was super easy to lock the rear using the back brake, and more of an issue than the addition of a slipper clutch. The on-off of the throttle was also more of an issue, than say, the cb, which didn't upset the bike as much, if you changed throttle position mid corner or something.

So, in summary, I don't think its cheating, and I don't think it actually helps toooo much more, as there are other issues you still have to sort out, if you're doing those speeds. At the end of the day, its another bike, that you have to learn, and you take the good and bad, all rolled into one package.

[cowpoos]

I don't think it actually helps toooo much more, as there are other issues you still have to sort out, if you're doing those speeds. At the end of the day, its another bike, that you have to learn, and you take the good and bad, all rolled into one package.


good point...I think the are fantasic bloody things...on the track that is [and wish my race bike had one!!!]...not all ways the same as the road... :scooter:

[NZsarge]

Personally I dont feel its cheating. I dont have one, and never have but if you were to say something like this was cheating then you could equally say that we're all cheating not having to manually advance our spark nowadays...or being able to shift with our foot...or having electronic ignition...tyres, suspension, brakes....its all going to advance as time moves on.

Its all about whether you want to use the tool or not. I dare say for racing, if you are not using the same or better toolbox than the next person then you are at a disadvantage...however on the road its jsut personal preference...use the tool or dont.

I had this conversation with my bro whos a cager...he loves TVR's which are sans ABS and the like which he prefers seeing it as a "drivers car". Definately see his point, and yours, and agree..but cant bring myself to disagree with people using the technology brought forth through evolution.
Yeah...what he said...and well put i must say.:corn:

[White trash]

How the hell can it be called cheating if it's a development?

It's like saying anyone with upside down forks was cheating when they first came out. Or Disc brakes.

A bike under rapid decceleration is more stable when fitted with one in most instances. I love the bastards, although I'm reluctant to not cover the rear brake doing wheelies with one fitted.

[limbimtimwim]

The k6 had the slipper done up too tight I think, which made it more of a hinderance, as it affected pulling away, or dumping the clutch, to dart through traffic. Didn't test it at higher speeds.They don't work like that, it's not like a scooters 'centrifugal clutch'. It should not effect acceleration at all. It was probably just plain slipping.

It is a misconception that a slipper clutch means you cannot lock up that back wheel on a downshift. You sure can, I can do it on my gsxr and rvf. It just helps you a little if you don't use enough clutch when you should have. Any lockup there is, it is usually over very quickly with a slipper clutch too.

I know it has changed the way I ride, I get on some other bike and I know at some point I am going to go down a gear clutchless carrying a few revs too many and I'll lock up the back wheel.

Anyway, it's not cheating because everyone else is going to run one too.

I read in one of my magazines here that endurance racing bikes have the slipper removed because they encourage laziness in the rider (not matching revs on a downshift) and the clutch wears too quickly.

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for the feedback guys. :done:

Yes I know its progress and it's a great feature.

Slipper clutches seemed to literally feel like a switch - I habitually blip the throttle on every downchange at any speed. But with a slipper clutch it's like pushing a button - there is zero mechanical feedback.

However while riding (the usual rides and trackdays) my previous 04 636 with an old fashioned clutch I used to always have to be very alert to prevent locking the back up always having to concentrate on this. Which in turn I believe forced me to become a lot smoother with my engine braking or risk messing up the corner.

Therefore should someone looking at a thou – 1st get one without a slipper clutch – get used to taking it flat out (until he gets into the fast group at trackdays) – then buy another big bike with a slipper clutch as he has now gained slightly better downshifting and engine braking ability????????

Following on from a rider education perspective, and now looking at it as purchasing criteria, if slipper clutches are the shiz – then in the thou market – there’s the 04+ ZX10 and the 05+ gixxer. (cheapest slipper clutch thous)

But if they really aren’t that big a deal – one can buy an older thou and save the cash for more trackdays. What do guys reckon?

[justsomeguy]

Anyway, it's not cheating because everyone else is going to run one too.


hey S,

I'm not talking about cheating others - I'm talking from a purely personal perspective about cheating yourself out of developing better downshifting skills.