Am I being paranoid ?

[FROSTY]

The latest move by the powers that be is a proposal that You can be prosecuted anywhere anytime for dangerous/careless use of a motor vehicle.
Its been bought about by the idiot 4wd drivers driving on private land and hurting their passengers BUT.
Senario--Its an open practice day at Pukie.
I'm out on my race bike practicing and colide with a bloke on a roadie sending him into the armco.
Currently its a case of -Ohh well thats life
But with this proposed law as i see it I could be done for dangerous use.
Am I just being paranoid??

[James Deuce]

No. I am sure there is already a Shyster Firm, errr, Law Firm setting up a special division for just such a happenstance.

[Devil]

I read about this and couldnt really believe it. Ill reserve proper judgement till I see something with more detail than a newspaper article.

[vifferman]

But with this proposed law as i see it I could be done for dangerous use.
Am I just being paranoid??That was my initial thought when I read the article: that it would open things up for people being prosecuted when someone gets hurt or killed in motorsports, whereas at present the participants just accept the risks associated with the sports. Which is how it should be, unless someone is behaving deliberately dangerously or recklessly, in which case there are probably already grounds for further action to be taken.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it goes that way - it fits in with all the other stupid PC laws protecting people from their own stupidity. If something goes wrong or someone gets killed - better make a law to stop it happening.
(If I was Hitcher I would've made some clever comment about hobbyhorses pawing the floor of the gargre and wating to burst through the door...
But my head is bad, so I won't.)

[Paul in NZ]

It was worse than that. It was prompted by a 4WD moron that ran into people sitting at a picnic table.

The Police didn't really have much to charge them with (stupidity not yet being illegal) and I can understand where they (the Police) are coming from on this one.

It does create some issues though! I cannot imagine the dirt bike community being too thrilled!

Cheers

[FROSTY]

Yea Im worndering about exactly that.
Quite often (I think) those brilliant passing moves that work are right on the edge of a disaster. Pull it off and you're a hero -stuff it up and get done for careless use.
And who decides whats dangerous??
Ok-another example. --At practice on turn one at Taupo I ran wide to see what would happen. Hoon was right behind me expecting me to turn in normally -we colided Does he get done for following tooo close?
Or perhaps me for following an incorrect line?

[Paul in NZ]

Oooohh... I think it would be drawing a VERY long bow to suggest activities on a proper race track were going to result in a prosecution.

Getting pissed and doing donuts on your neighbours front lawn then suddenly getting traction and running over the Seventh day Adventists strolling down his driveway might be a different matter though!

Cheers

[Blakamin]

Getting pissed and doing donuts on your neighbours front lawn then suddenly getting traction and running over the Seventh day Adventists strolling down his driveway might be a different matter though!



There's my saturdays stuffed then! :bye:

Surely they couldnt get it happening on tracks??? you would just have to sign a disclaimer before you raced

[James Deuce]

There's my saturdays stuffed then! :bye:

Surely they couldnt get it happening on tracks??? you would just have to sign a disclaimer before you raced
The disclaimer would mean squat if there was legislation that could over ride it. A race track could still be argued as being off road.

In Frosty's example above though, always remember there is no correct line on a racetrack, only the line that helps you beat the guy in front. The onus (not anus, you deviants!) is on the following rider not to bonk into the person in front of them.

[Hitcher]

If a criminal act has been committed, then surely some action is required?

In a rugby match if some pissed off spectator wanders onto the pitch and slugs the ref or a halfback, then they can get done with assault.

If you recklessly discharge a firearm in the general direction of your best mate who's wearing a day-glow orange swanndri who you thought at the time looked a bit like a deer, you get done for manslaughter, or worse.

If you're driving your Mitsi Pawanker over some sand dunes and you crush the life out of a six-year-old who's building a sand castle, you should expect to get done for reckless endangerment, or worse.

If you cut in front of somebody on your bike at the end of the main straight at Manfeild when that other person had the race line and you cause them to lose control of their bike, impale themselves and croak, "that's life"?? No consequences??

Is my hobby horse going deaf or should I open the gargre door so it can better hear what you guys are saying?

[toads]

I think everyone regardless of age or whatever should be responsible for their actions, accidents can and always will happen, but I am sick and tired of random, meaningless legislation being passed through parliament, that cannot and will not be enforced anyway. I agree with Paul that stupidity hasn't yet been made illegal, but I really think it should be and then all bases are covered, it will only then boil down to the law enforcement then to determine what the defination of stupidity is!

[Blakamin]

If you cut in front of somebody on your bike at the end of the main straight at Manfeild when that other person had the race line and you cause them to lose control of their bike, impale themselves and croak, "that's life"?? No consequences??

Is my hobby horse going deaf or should I open the gargre door so it can better hear what you guys are saying?

I'm saying that is part of motorsport, not like the other scenarios

[Hitcher]

I'm saying that is part of motorsport, not like the other scenarios
And if the opposition first-five sidesteps you and you stiff-arm tackle and kill him, that's not part of rugby?

[Devil]

Its all good to look at the legal options when there is an accident, but hold on here guys, you can get charged with this shit without anyone else being involved!

You can do dumb shit on the road, not hit anything and still get nailed for it.
Is this going to be ported to anywhere?

*stomp* I wanna be able to do whatever dumb shit I like in the middle of nowhere :p

[toads]

*stomp* I wanna be able to do whatever dumb shit I like in the middle of nowhere :p

Well Devil cheer up you will be able to continue doing dumb stuff in the middle of nowhere, you will just have to look left and right to make sure there are no plods on duty first.

[FROSTY]

as the rules stand anyone that goes on the racetrack understands the risks and races knowing you can get hurt.
The whole point of racing is pushing the envelope.
I have a mental image of racers pulling into the pits and cops handing out tickets for dangerous use to everyone that rubbed fairings or "stole" another guys lines.
OK OK--enough of the sillyness. -I would be pretty sure that organised competitions will be exempt from these rules. BUT
To me its really gonna stuff up open track days -The pay ya money and go out and play kind. The way it reads to me is that is the very type of scenario the cops are looking to stamp out.
Like the drifters -with 4 mates in the car with them smashing into the wall at castrol.

[Hitcher]

as the rules stand anyone that goes on the racetrack understands the risks and races knowing you can get hurt.
The whole point of racing is pushing the envelope.
I have a mental image of racers pulling into the pits and cops handing out tickets for dangerous use to everyone that rubbed fairings or "stole" another guys lines.
OK OK--enough of the sillyness. -I would be pretty sure that organised competitions will be exempt from these rules. BUT
To me its really gonna stuff up open track days -The pay ya money and go out and play kind. The way it reads to me is that is the very type of scenario the cops are looking to stamp out.
Like the drifters -with 4 mates in the car with them smashing into the wall at castrol.
It's not just the cops. It's a consequence of the whole OSH/ACC palaver. Remember the cycle race to Akaroa where a cyclist got killed by an oncoming car? The effect that has had on all manner of events from lolly scrambles upwards is frightening. Time to lock ourselves away in our padded cells and throw away the key?

[riffer]

Well Devil cheer up you will be able to continue doing dumb stuff in the middle of nowhere, you will just have to look left and right to make sure there are no plods on duty first.
This sounds a bit like the tree falling in the woods scenario.

If you do dumb stuff in the middle of nowhere, and there's no one to see it, was it really dumb? :laugh:

[FROSTY]

not having a go at the cops hitcher. just a mental image flashed through my head. -radar guns on the back straight etc.
Cops are the poor bastards that have to enforce the legislation.

[riffer]

not having a go at the cops hitcher. just a mental image flashed through my head. -radar guns on the back straight etc.
Cops are the poor bastards that have to enforce the legislation.
Surely road speed rules don't apply to the track do they?

What would happen to motor vehicle ads that quite clearly state "This advertisement was filmed on a close road"?

I thought the whole point of a closed private road was that the road rules do not apply.

It would be a brave cop that tried to stop a race and apply the road rules to it.

[Blakamin]

And if the opposition first-five sidesteps you and you stiff-arm tackle and kill him, that's not part of rugby?

Dunno, I was born in melbourne :niceone:
is a stiff-arm a legal thing? if not, face the consequences, if so, the killing bit was probably an accident :doctor:

[Blakamin]

This sounds a bit like the tree falling in the woods scenario.

If you do dumb stuff in the middle of nowhere, and there's no one to see it, was it really dumb? :laugh:

hope not or i'm one of the dumbest people i know!

[FROSTY]

Surely road speed rules don't apply to the track do they?

What would happen to motor vehicle ads that quite clearly state "This advertisement was filmed on a close road"?

I thought the whole point of a closed private road was that the road rules do not apply.

It would be a brave cop that tried to stop a race and apply the road rules to it.
Sorry celtic--I was kinda waay out there in dream land imagining it.
Mind you -imagine a booze bus halfway down the back straight.
And the courage /stupidity of the cop trying to stop a feild of screaming gsxr1000's heading at him at 250km/h plus. :Police:
And of course then there would be the need of pursuit cars to catch the bikes.--Hmm I think messers schumaker and murphy might have apropriate vehicles.-Murphs holden with redn whites on the roof :blah: :killingme

[Indiana_Jones]

God I hate PC-ness, I heard at one time they wanted to have fences around all water features over 4cm deep :p

-Indy

[tassle]

what concerns me is .What if you are on a mates farm,playing tag on your dirt bikes,someone gets hurt(knocked off) while playing tag(touch),gets a helicopter ride ,just brusing, does this mean you get done for careless use,dangerous driving.its only an example as motorbike tag is not an olympic sport. are we really going to have to wrap ourselves in little white fluffies.

[toads]

God I hate PC-ness, I heard at one time they wanted to have fences around all water features over 4cm deep :p

-Indy

you and me both indy, it really spells trouble for the average toilet doesn't it!.

[FROSTY]

I gave the herald a ring-I figgered let them do the research.
So lets sit back and see if there is further development

[riffer]

I gave the herald a ring-I figgered let them do the research.
So lets sit back and see if there is further development
and congrats on the 2000th post ...<_<

[MD]

What I can't see is what's changed to need this new law? Sure more idiots own 4WDs (is there any other kind of 4WD owner?). But we've had Hoons, me for one, ripping up the countryside on dirk bikes for decades and farm lads on all sorts of off road vehicles, beach buggies etc..Never needed a special law before. I doubt that I could have hurt/killed someone years ago on the Waimak river or beach and got off scott free. If using a vehicle offroad is now dangerous then same logic means other things will need a 'special law' e.g. using a chainsaw and hurting someone, intentional or not. I'm no lawyer but there must be laws to cover reckless endangerment/injury by any means?
Examples are that tandem Hangglider pilot in Queenstown and that bitch that drove through the party goers near Wakatane last year. That was offroad but didn't stop the Law charging them (lets not get sidetracked with the pathetic jury)
Personally I'd support a law banning 4wds from our roads altogether. Let em stay offroad, thats where their design features intended them to be, not clogging our m/ways and supermarket carparks.

[Hitcher]

what concerns me is .What if you are on a mates farm,playing tag on your dirt bikes,someone gets hurt(knocked off) while playing tag(touch),gets a helicopter ride ,just brusing, does this mean you get done for careless use,dangerous driving.its only an example as motorbike tag is not an olympic sport. are we really going to have to wrap ourselves in little white fluffies.
In terms of legal liability it is your mate who owns the farm who is in the gun, as it were.

[Hitcher]

and congrats on the 2000th post ...<_<
Well done indeed, Mr Frosty!

[Jackrat]

Looks like the time is ripe to buy shares in cotton wool. :wacko:

[SPman]

.... are we really going to have to wrap ourselves in little white fluffies.
Yep! Legislation has been going that way for years! Just another brick in the wall! :thud:

[Racey Rider]

Soon they'll be makin us wear helmits just to ride a bicycle! :moon:

Orr, :o we've been through that before.
Don't mind me! As you were.

[dangerous]

And who decides whats dangerous??
I do :moon:


Sure more idiots own 4WDs (is there any other kind of 4WD owner)
Yes theres me thank you very much :mad: (plz disguard my user name :bye:
Ya se its that old situation of the minority spoiling it for the majority again. Of bloody course I'm at risk, as is any passangers I have while 4x4ing shit thats why the hell we do it, its adrenalyn (*sp) just like riding the bike.
The bloody world is going flipping crazy and IMO its not a good thing. :beer:

[spudchucka]

And if the opposition first-five sidesteps you and you stiff-arm tackle and kill him, that's not part of rugby?
In all contact sports there is an implied consent between the parties that are willingly taking part. That is to say that if you get tackled big time and your spleen gets ruptured you cant then turn around and imply it was assault because you have previously consented to the other person using force as an acceptable part of the game. Things like stiff arms, spear tackles etc are dealt with internally by the unions and shouldn't be matters for the police unless the actions were deliberate and were intended to cause GBH or death. The same implied consent exists in motor racing, the participants know the risks and accept them.

[spudchucka]

Cops are the poor bastards that have to enforce the legislation.
What about the banning smoking in bars legislation? Who the hell is going to bother to police that? I think you will find that a few extreme cases of outright stupidity get prosecuted but cops aren't going to start staking out the nearest 4WD track.

[spudchucka]

Surely road speed rules don't apply to the track do they?

What would happen to motor vehicle ads that quite clearly state "This advertisement was filmed on a close road"?

I thought the whole point of a closed private road was that the road rules do not apply.

It would be a brave cop that tried to stop a race and apply the road rules to it.
Look at the boy racer ammendments to the Land Transport Act, it makes mention of organised races on public roads, so parliamnet has already considered these things that you folks are sweating over in previous legislation. In fact that bill was called the "Unauthorised Street Racing" bill or something similar to that. The use of the word Unauthorised implies that some street racing can be allowed if organised properly. I'm sure that none of this legislation will be aimed at the legitimate clubs and organisations, it will be aimed at the weekend cowboys that make a menace of themselves and stuff it up for all the fair dinkum users.

[spudchucka]

What I can't see is what's changed to need this new law?
It'll be because some pollie in his Range Rover got splattered in mud by some yokel hooning in his clapped out HiLux or similar.

[SPman]

think you will find that a few extreme cases of outright stupidity get prosecuted but cops aren't going to start staking out the nearest 4WD track.
And thats as it should be!

[FROSTY]

Look at the boy racer ammendments to the Land Transport Act, it makes mention of organised races on public roads, so parliamnet has already considered these things that you folks are sweating over in previous legislation. In fact that bill was called the "Unauthorised Street Racing" bill or something similar to that. The use of the word Unauthorised implies that some street racing can be allowed if organised properly. I'm sure that none of this legislation will be aimed at the legitimate clubs and organisations, it will be aimed at the weekend cowboys that make a menace of themselves and stuff it up for all the fair dinkum users.
Well its all got rather interesting. The herald reporters are seeing a story here I guess.
They are looking at it from the point of view of people competing in the rally of NZ or motorcrossers, but the rules are the same for us as for MX guys.
So far They have had NO commitment from the powers that be that under the proposed law change that a person competing in a legitimate closed road or circuit racer won't face prosecution.
The best thats been offered is that a racer shouldn't be prosecuted.
This could get VERY interesting.

[spudchucka]

Just so everyone who is interested in this topic knows exactly what is proposed I'll cut & paste the actual ammendments.

This is the current legislation:


7.Drivers not to be reckless or dangerous—

(1)A person may not operate a motor vehicle recklessly on a road.

(2)A person may not drive a motor vehicle on a road, or cause a motor vehicle to be driven on a road, at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances, is or might be dangerous to the public or to a person.

8.Drivers not to be careless or inconsiderate—

A person may not operate a vehicle on a road carelessly or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road.

These are the proposed ammendments:


6 Drivers not to be reckless or dangerous
(1) Section 7 of the principal Act is amended by repealing subsection
(1), and substituting the following subsection:
‘‘(1) A person may not drive a motor vehicle, or cause a motor
vehicle to be driven, recklessly.’’
(2) Section 7(2) of the principal Act is amended by omitting the
words ‘‘on a road’’ in both places where they occur.

7 New section 8 substituted
The principal Act is amended by repealing section 8, and
substituting the following section:
‘‘8 Drivers not to be careless or inconsiderate
A person may not drive a vehicle, or cause a vehicle to be
driven, carelessly or without reasonable consideration for
other persons.’’

The key ammendment being the omission of the word "road" from the relevant sections.

If you want to read the whole thing go here:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/downloads/ltab2004-bill.pdf

[riffer]

The key ammendment being the omission of the word "road" from the relevant sections.
And, interestingly, any reference to "speed" :whistle:

[riffer]

And, interestingly, any reference to "speed" :whistle:
Although, possibly, on further reading maybe not. Seems to give a lot of power to police to determine reckless riding and driving offroad.

Is there an official definition of reckless for offroad use?

[tassle]

Although, possibly, on further reading maybe not. Seems to give a lot of power to police to determine reckless riding and driving offroad.

Is there an official definition of reckless for offroad use?
its probably along the lines,anything that could cause harm to yourself or others,it will be vague and open to pretty liberal interpertation of whoever is in charge.

[spudchucka]

As discussed in previous threads, reckless driving amounts to dangerous driving with intent. That is to say the person knows the consequences but deliberately drives in that manner. An example would be intentionaly ramming another vehicle to cause it to crash or playing chicken with oncoming vehicles when police are pursuing in an attempt to cause the police to abandon.

[FROSTY]

But isn't racing by its very definition dangerous driving with intent.
-Example being stockcars. There is no question they intend to do harm to each others cars.
For that matter certain (ahem) members of KB and their go kart driving--aye logan and chris :devil2:
Spud--ya see what I'm getting at -I can see what the law is aimed at
BUT -again scenario (not one I want to contemplate)
Me and another rider are side by side going into the hairpin at pukie.
I have the inside line BUT its just not gonna happen -to tight a line
I slide -hit the other rider, he flies off and boom hes dead on the armco.
His mum is upset and decides she wants me prosecuted-
Under the proposed law I can be.
I've seen that senario happen heaps of times (not fatal thank gosh)

[spudchucka]

But isn't racing by its very definition dangerous driving with intent.
I don't see it that way at all. I think I said something earlier about implied consent, which applies to motor racing as it does to contact sports. However if a racer went crazy and deliberately started running over track marshals then he should certainly face charges, don't you think?

[Motu]

I once bowled over an observer at a trial - I was picking my way towards him,and he kept moving away...so I kept my eye on him,as he moved further away I still aimed at him - a classic case of target steering.When I finally mowed him down he was really pissed off,reckoned he had a crook back and I'd wrecked it again - prick marked me down as a 5 everytime I went through his section from then on.So now he could do me for careless use of a motor vehicle,fair enough,but then he agreed to be an observer knowing there was a very slim chance it could be dangerous - he just didn't count on a dickhead like me coming along.

[spudchucka]

As with all new laws there will be a period of testing the boundries of the new legislation before the interpretation of the courts is fully known.

[Skyryder]

The Christchurch Press 1/9/04 has headlines on this very subject.
Go to http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/0,2106,3020259a6009,00.html

Apart from the driving without a license and leaving the scene etc seems like this guy will be charged causing death. I personally have a bit of a problem with this. The deceased was an active participent in the race. And yet the boy is being charged with causing her death. Early days on this but something here just does not fit.

Skyryder

[dangerous]

The Christchurch Press 1/9/04 has headlines on this very subject.
Go to http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/0,2106,3020259a6009,00.html

Apart from the driving without a license and leaving the scene etc seems like this guy will be charged causing death. I personally have a bit of a problem with this. The deceased was an active participent in the race. And yet the boy is being charged with causing her death. Early days on this but something here just does not fit.

Skyryder
And so Reid should be done and done bloody well :ar15:
Why do I think this...... because if he chose to obay the rooad code (not race) then the death and other very sad injories would NOT of happened, simple.
He racer #1 gets of lightly she racer #2 gets the worse end of the deal.... shes dead

[Skyryder]

OK Dangerouse fair enough. But the girl was an active participent. The fact that she decided to race was her decision. Not withstanding that Reid was a disqualified driver and left the scene of an accident I am yet to be convinced that his actions were in anyway the cause of her death. She was the one who lost control. I may yet still be convinced that he (Reid )was at fault but I think this needs thinking through. Suppose it was a motorcyle the girl raced against. None of us have much time for cagers who drive dangerously and I may be the odd man out here but I am open to persuasion. Let's put this in the context that we can all understand. I am at a set of lights minding my own buisiness when a boy racer pulls up, tits the engine, so I thinks to myself, another wanker. The lights turn green I gun it and the boy racer spins out of control and kills somebody. Should I be charged with causing death. Under the new laws I would be. Would I be found guilty Now that's an interesting question that the courts will decide. This case has some serious implications for us all. The fact that Reid is commonly known as a boy racer should not allow us to jump to predetermined conclusions.

Skyryder

[dangerous]

But the girl was an active participent.
And look were it got her...... He got of lightly, becos the shoe could of been on the other foot, then who do ya reckon is guility?

It's the 4x4 thing that gets me......... how the hell am I ment to cross a river, climb a steep muddy hill and not do it dangerously, another words its dangerous to cross a river anything could happen same goes for the hill climb. If I was to drown the passanger or role and kill a passanger (due to an unforseen suition) then do I get done for dangerous driving/man sloughter???

[Lou Girardin]

It sounds like there's a variation of the 'if you've done nothing wrong there's nothing to worry about' principle going on here.
Apparently we can give the Police these new powers safe in the knowledge that they'll use them wisely and with discretion.
Except, we should ask Astrid Anderson; organiser of 'Le Race' or ask the organisers of the Queenstown street race where two spectators were killed. All were prosecuted. The Police work on a 'prosecute and let the courts decide' principle'. (Unless you're the PM or husband of a Judge, that is) Now you may well win in court, but it's a phyrric victory. The costs of winning will ruin most people.
The Police can't use the powers they've got in a sensible manner, why would we want to give them more?
And, of course they won't stake out areas frequented by 4WD's. They don't hide in motorway shrubbery or have speed blitz's where there hasn't been a fatal in years either.
Give them the right to enter your land at will and they'll be sniffing in your knickers drawers next.

[FROSTY]

Latest development--This ammendment was closed to all submissions last friday.
As a result of possible ramifications for Racers there have been several late submissions which are beiing concidered.
The law may be modified to exclude those involved in closed road /circuit
racing given it is an aproved and legal event --eg a road race.

[MD]

And look were it got her...... He got of lightly, becos the shoe could of been on the other foot, then who do ya reckon is guility?

It's the 4x4 thing that gets me......... how the hell am I ment to cross a river, climb a steep muddy hill and not do it dangerously, another words its dangerous to cross a river anything could happen same goes for the hill climb. If I was to drown the passanger or role and kill a passanger (due to an unforseen suition) then do I get done for dangerous driving/man sloughter???
1.Good to see you are the exception Dangerous, using a 4wd off road where it should be. That was my dig early at those "Idiots" in spotless shiny ones that go from home to kindy or the office and never touch dirt or tow a boat...
2.I have to agree with Skyrider about that Reid guy. He contributed to a race happening but should he be charged with murder or manslaughter when he didn't lose control/crash himself? Shoot him for leaving the scene for sure. BUT, what if Reid was driving pass a pretty girl walking her dog who gives him a wink and encourages him to show off with a burnout or drag. He obliges, loses control and kills someone else. Was the pedestrian responsible for the death as well? That's a long stretch of the law's arm to me. Lets leave intelligent Politicians decide it for us, yippee.

[dangerous]

I have to agree with Skyrider about that Reid guy. He contributed to a race happening but should he be charged with murder or manslaughter when he didn't lose control/crash himself? Shoot him for leaving the scene for sure. BUT, what if Reid was driving pass a pretty girl walking her dog who gives him a wink and encourages him to show off with a burnout or drag. He obliges, loses control and kills someone else. Was the pedestrian responsible for the death as well? That's a long stretch of the law's arm to me. Lets leave intelligent Politicians decide it for us, yippee.
I do agree here he shouldent be charged for murder or whatever it is, BUT he should be charged for the worse kind of traffic ofence possable.... if he did not accept the drag then theres a high chance that the girl would not of died.
She died cos she raced not cos he did.

[Skyryder]

Like most laws that can be used against the unsuspecting this new law has been promoted both by politicians and the media as a curb against the boy racers. As I understand the new legislation not only can you be booked for speeding but there could be additional charges

7 New section 8 substituted
The principal Act is amended by repealing section 8, and
substituting the following section:
‘‘8 Drivers not to be careless or inconsiderate
A person may not drive a vehicle, or cause a vehicle to be
driven, carelessly or without reasonable consideration for
other persons.’’

So you have realy loud pipes at 5000 to 7000 rpm's is that inconsiderate to others? That's the best case scenario. As I aluded in my earlier post,
you are parked at the lights some plonkker thinks that he can take you on you burn him and then at 50k.s throttle back and unbeknown to you some one walked out in front of the boy racer and the racer knocks him over. But then you never saw the witness standing on the corner who promptly inform the plod that you were dragging of the boy racer. Hell there are hundreds of variation on this theme but I am sure all here get my drift. You have broken no laws othe than been off at the lights quickish. I just have a problem with this sort of legislation.

Skyryder