What makes a good rider?

[Kittyhawk]

What makes a good rider?....

What do you observe when someone else is riding in front of you? their lines, gear changes, how they lean their bike around a corner on open roads/twisties.

If someone overtakes you how can you tell they are good and know what they are doing?

Lane splitting, if you pull into a lane and someone splits past do you watch their moves?

Is there anything that you've picked up from riding in a group with others eg. a rider in front of you
leans off their seat, and then you've tried it and it works for you.

What are things which make a rider unsafe to be around?

[Disco Dan]

My 2c

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=45812&page=19

[Kittyhawk]

Lol oh dude!!

[surfchick]

re your lanesplit question IF someone catches me lane splitting :bleh: :spanking: :spanking: i always watch their little scrawny asse to see what they're up to. i especially enjoy the bullet fast crappy wobbling 250cc ones that bolt past looking for a double articulated lorry to mate with... or something even more humiliating like a cefiro or sunny or bongo...

[Karma]

What do you observe when someone else is riding in front of you?


The road... it's the safest way to ride.

[Bonez]

The road... it's the safest way to ride.Ditto. Do find "knee downs/outs" on public roads quite ammusing though.

[flash]

i say a smooth rider is a great rider, someone thats not erratic and begging to crash ;)

[Sketchy_Racer]

On the road.

A good rider is one that is ALWAYS in control..

On a track.... the one that beats me around a corner :grr:

[vamr]

If someone overtakes you how can you tell they are good?

When someone overtakes me on a korean made bike with their leg down certainly impresses me.

[flash]

On the road.

A good rider is one that is ALWAYS in control..


bang on there rg100, bling awarded :rockon:

[vamr]

Ditto. Do find "knee downs/outs" on public roads quite ammusing though.

Elbow downs are the new black.

[Black Bandit]

Smoothness always impresses me. Always hear the commentators complimenting Biaggi's smooth riding style on SBK. Which I guess equates to control?

Your's was good Kittyhawk - on yesterday's ride I was impressed with your throttle control (and not too much braking) approaching sweepers - caused some interesting corners for me though as I realised a bit late that you had slowed for the corner even though the brake light hadn't lit up.

[NighthawkNZ]

First of all you shouldn't just be watching the bike/vehicle ahead of you, you should know what all vehicles around you are doing and expecting the unexpected from them.

Smooth riding and lines, (not erractic) someone that's in control, doesn't tense up when corning, (even with grit and crap on the road and corners, a good rider has spotted these and have picked the best line around) the bike should flow naturally around the corners.

Something you probably can't see the rider should be relaxed, knows his/her surroundings, and is thinking ahead.

[Disco Dan]

When someone overtakes me on a korean made bike with their leg down certainly impresses me.

not sure it is impressive. stupid, certainly. if a person wants to try going around corners with their foot off the peg doing motox style then they are either stupid or inexperienced. Although in this case, what you saw vamr yesterday was both.

[White trash]

Ditto. Do find "knee downs/outs" on public roads quite ammusing though.
Why's that bones?

Do you think it's wanky or posy or just uncalled for? I'm sure the only reason Valentino's doin it, is because everyone else is.

[The_Dover]

Why's that bones?

Do you think it's wanky or posy or just uncalled for? I'm sure the only reason Valentino's doin it, is because everyone else is.

i'm not.

unless I fall off.

[White trash]

Yeah, Valentino falls off ocasionally too mate.

[TS99]

About 8 inches

[DEATH_INC.]

It's been said before, SSSSmmmooooothness is the key, someone who looks like theyre going slow while they kick your ass....

[cowboyz]

Traits of a good ROAD rider?

First and formost being in control of the bike. Closely followed by being able to read the road, both surface and corners. You can tell from a mile away someone who is relaxed and in control adn it is really comforting to follow a smooth rider.

[The_Dover]

someone who looks like theyre going slow while they kick your ass....

you lot have been warned.

that valentino cunt should watch out too.

[cowboyz]

Just thinking again...

I think a good rider is also someone who can hold their own pace/(come ego) in check when a quicker bike/rider goes by them.

[FROSTY]

smooth,relaxed,in control looking

[Disco Dan]

smooth,relaxed,in control looking

regardless of speed.

[BarBender]

It's been said before, SSSSmmmooooothness is the key, someone who looks like theyre going slow while they kick your ass....

Yep...Smooth.

A good rider should be poetry in motion.

[The Stranger]

Yep...Smooth.

A good rider should be poetry in motion.

Yeah, watching Daryl (dss3) slice through the fast group at Taupo was something I'll never forget. So fluid.

[yod]

Buy more petrol. Auckland needs more roads.
Oh and thanks for the new stadium.


excuse the :Offtopic: but:

you all ready for your own personal petrol tax mate??

on behalf of everybody south of the bombays and north of albany....cheers for the dosh!! you're a real gent :laugh:

[Paul in NZ]

Why's that bones?

Do you think it's wanky or posy or just uncalled for? I'm sure the only reason Valentino's doin it, is because everyone else is.


I heard he was doin' it cos he heard you were...

On the way in a bike pulled a pretty fast lane split on the Starlet and I remeber thinks 'shit I'm old - I wouldn't have the balls or reactions for that move'..... 10km later I saw the same bike... I think it was tired as it was having a wee laydown on the side of the road...

What makes a good rider? Surviving long enough.... Good does not always equal fast though - different animals..

[lowededwookie]

I think this question is something incorrect.

To say that a good rider is someone who takes the correct lines and brakes in the right positions and all that is actually missing what makes a good rider.

To me a good rider is someone who wears the correct gear, doesn't play silly buggers on the road while still enjoying the ride and pushing themself.

To me a good rider is someone who lives by the motto:

"Everyone's a moron out to kill me"

He/She that lives by this motto will invariably ride in such a way that, while pushing the limits, realises that the moron in front, behind, and to the side will do something stupid and is able to predict that stupidity and avoid it without thinking.

Riding isn't about the bike or your ability to control your bike it's all about having the correct mental attitude, being in tune with your surroundings and with the bike, and not doing something that will villify you, get you killed, or worse someone else killed.

Riding like this means that you can get yourself out of anything without thinking, avoid getting yourself into situations that could spell trouble, and all this basically spells you having fun.

Don't follow what others do because everyone develops their own riding style that works for them. When you're on the road you're there on your own terms. Riding shouldn't be about beating the guy in front of you, it's about riding for the fun, riding for you and no one else. It's about losing yourself in your own world while seeing more of the real world around you.

That's what makes a great rider.

[Ixion]

Why's that bones?

Do you think it's wanky or posy or just uncalled for? I'm sure the only reason Valentino's doin it, is because everyone else is.

They're amusing when you're following someone on a sprotsbike who's hanging way off in every corner , knee stuck right out. And you're following him through at the same pace, on a chook chaser, with knobbly tyres , sitting up nice and comfy. Not sure if Valentino has chook chasers after him .

[gixermike]

on the road it's someone who doesn't routinely use the brakes...and doesn't need to. same thing as being smooth / deceptively fast.

has seen the corner etc early enough to do something about it without the brakes...whatever speed they're doing... and only uses the brakes for an emergency stop.

I score myself on how i'm doing, and if I use the brakes on a ride then I got it wrong.

[ManDownUnder]

on the road it's someone who doesn't routinely use the brakes...and doesn't need to. same thing as being smooth / deceptively fast.

has seen the corner etc early enough to do something about it without the brakes...whatever speed they're doing... and only uses the brakes for an emergency stop.

I score myself on how i'm doing, and if I use the brakes on a ride then I got it wrong.

Respectfully disagree on that one. The brakes are one of the tools I have at my disposal, and the use of them balanced with all the others (throttle, gears etc) all combine to make a good ride.

I think I see what you're saying though, and the practice of getting along with minimal brakes is a great way to learn to read corners and get those smoothe flowing lines you mentioned.

[James Deuce]

Trousers. If your trousers are too tight, you don't ride good.

[The_Dover]

Trousers. If your trousers are too tight, you don't ride good.


and never ride with a full bladder.

Incredibly distracting.

[James Deuce]

That's why I never ride without my urodome.

[The_Dover]

isn't it easier to stop and pee?

[NighthawkNZ]

To me a good rider is someone who wears the correct gear, doesn't play silly buggers on the road while still enjoying the ride and pushing themself..

I have all the gear to make music... doesn't make me a good musican even though I enjoy doing it...

Though I agree is not playing silly buggers on the road, and agree there is no need to push yourself to enjoy a ride either.

[Toaster]

[QUOTE=Kittyhawk;1029620] you of course! [QUOTE]

[Pwalo]

I'd say it would be someone who stays alive long enough to hang up his (0r her) jacket each night.

[The Stranger]

excuse the :Offtopic: but:

you all ready for your own personal petrol tax mate??

on behalf of everybody south of the bombays and north of albany....cheers for the dosh!! you're a real gent :laugh:

Not a problem, as you may note by my earlier posts I am all in favour of dearer petrol and am happy to lead the way.

This is actually quite an exciting social experiment.
What will become of those living outside of Auckland now? Finally they can shrug off their inferiority complex, flick that chip off of their shoulders and mature into healthy contributing members of society. (yeah right)
Who will they blame for their miserable existence now that Auckland is finally paying it's way?
Who knows, there may even come a day when they will be able to see themselves as equals.

Bring it on I say. It can only be good.

[Ixion]

Respectfully disagree on that one. The brakes are one of the tools I have at my disposal, and the use of them balanced with all the others (throttle, gears etc) all combine to make a good ride.

I think I see what you're saying though, and the practice of getting along with minimal brakes is a great way to learn to read corners and get those smoothe flowing lines you mentioned.

It does make a difference what sort of bike you ride! I see Mr GixxerMike, who commented that he doesn't use brakes, rides a VTR1000. 1000cc V Twin. Nope, he wouldn't need to use brakes much. Now, try the same on a 250cc two stroke!

[yod]

Not a problem, as you may note by my earlier posts I am all in favour of dearer petrol and am happy to lead the way.

This is actually quite an exciting social experiment.
What will become of those living outside of Auckland now? Finally they can shrug off their inferiority complex, flick that chip off of their shoulders and mature into healthy contributing members of society. (yeah right)
Who will they blame for their miserable existence now that Auckland is finally paying it's way?
Who knows, there may even come a day when they will be able to see themselves as equals.

Bring it on I say. It can only be good.

:laugh: you're lookin for a scrap aren't ya hehe

most of the people i met in Auckland don't even come from Auckland - it's a town full of strangers....hahahahaa get it? strangers?? haha...oh man...i kill me....

[yod]

Not a problem, as you may note by my earlier posts I am all in favour of dearer petrol and am happy to lead the way.

This is actually quite an exciting social experiment.
What will become of those living outside of Auckland now? Finally they can shrug off their inferiority complex, flick that chip off of their shoulders and mature into healthy contributing members of society. (yeah right)
Who will they blame for their miserable existence now that Auckland is finally paying it's way?
Who knows, there may even come a day when they will be able to see themselves as equals.

Bring it on I say. It can only be good.

oh by the way...you might wanna change your sig as well....you aint gettin no new stadium. the rest of the country whined and whined and f**ked you over...AGAIN!!! :laugh:

[Hitcher]

A good rider? Somebody who is in control of themselves, their bike and their riding environment.

[The Stranger]

:laugh: you're lookin for a scrap aren't ya hehe

hahahahaa get it? strangers?? haha...oh man...i kill me....

I wait with bated breath.

[James Deuce]

Their trousers also.

[yod]

I wait with bated breath.

nah mate...too easy to wind up jafas

(it's baited by the way....see...there's already steam coming outta your ears!):yes:

[Hitcher]

Indeed. Flagrant displays of butt crack cheapens their demeanor.

[Hitcher]

(it's baited by the way....see...there's already steam coming outta your ears!):yes:

Oh no it's not. Bated is right: with breath drawn in or held because of anticipation or suspense: I watched with bated breath as Ruben Xaus approached the finish line.

[yod]

Oh no it's not. Bated is right: with breath drawn in or held because of anticipation or suspense: I watched with bated breath as Ruben Xaus approached the finish line.

i stand corrected

...but you coulda let me watch the steam rising for a little longer couldnt ya??

[The Stranger]

nah mate...too easy to wind up jafas

(it's baited by the way....see...there's already steam coming outta your ears!):yes:

Ha ha, the sig is to wind up dorks from the hinterlands, who bit first?
No it is bated, as in waiting with abated breath.

However you were baited and hooked, so you can have that one.

[James Deuce]

One wouldn't be waiting long with "abated (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abated)" breath.

[Drew]

Back on topic now, a good rider, cannot be defined I dont think.

It seems to me, that even the best riders are still learning, new ideas and styles are constantly being thought up. So nomatter who is in front of you, weather they may be better or worse, the potential is there to learn something from them.

There are plenty of fast riders, who crash very seldom, and plenty of slow riders who crash a lot, but as Cowpoos says every thirty seconds, "It's easy to teach a fast rider not to crash, but hard to teach a slow rider to be fast."

"Good" must first be defined, before you can achieve the goal.

And, trousers, that is the most important thing, bling for Jim2 for pointing it out.:yes:

[yod]

Ha ha, the sig is to wind up dorks from the hinterlands, who bit first?
No it is bated, as in waiting with abated breath.

However you were baited and hooked, so you can have that one.

fair enuff mate...ya got me

unfortunately the sig is now totally incorrect, but i'll let ya have that one

[KATWYN]

Is there anything that you've picked up from riding in a group with others eg. a rider in front of you
leans off their seat, and then you've tried it and it works for you.

What are things which make a rider unsafe to be around?


IMHO -Watching their lines - good rider

IMHO - Riding to close behind (anything), and not riding staggered, putting others at risk - bad rider

[lowededwookie]

I have all the gear to make music... doesn't make me a good musican even though I enjoy doing it...

Though I agree is not playing silly buggers on the road, and agree there is no need to push yourself to enjoy a ride either.Having the gear means you're responsible. A rider that has only shorts and a tshirt is a dick that deserves to get busted up. A rider that forgoes wearing proper gear on account of it being too hot, too bulky, or too time consuming to put on is NOT a good rider as they are not responsible.

This ties in with my silly buggers thought as well. Both indicate responsibility. Responsible riders are good riders. Unresponsible riders are a menace and noone thinks they're cool.


Hence my comments stand.

[The Stranger]

and not riding staggered, ...- bad rider

I'm a bad rider then.
What do you do when this conflicts with "ride your own ride"?

By way of example we are on the noob ride on ANZAC day and riders are just rocking up to a corner from the left or right, where ever they happened to be in their stagger pattern.
If there is a pot hole, rough surface, seal repairs, tar bleed or a corner I am out of formation riding my own ride thanks.

[James Deuce]

Actually they don't stand at all Mr wookie, and I don't like the implication that motorcyclists who don't conform to your standards "deserve" injury or death.

"Unresponsible" isn't a word.

[NighthawkNZ]

Having the gear means you're responsible.


Being responsible doesn't make you a good rider though does it... heck if you are a good rider you shouldn't need to have the gear cause you ain't gonna bin it are you... the responsible bit wearing the gear is even though you are a great rider, you don't trust the other buggers on the road.

[Pwalo]

Valentino Rossi's quite good apparently.

[gixermike]

It does make a difference what sort of bike you ride! I see Mr GixxerMike, who commented that he doesn't use brakes, rides a VTR1000. 1000cc V Twin. Nope, he wouldn't need to use brakes much. Now, try the same on a 250cc two stroke!

yeah, but with the long first gear on the sp1 it was actually easier on my gixxer 6 as first was shorter.

thinking of dropping the gearing for just that reason...

[Kornholio]

What makes a good rider???

Ill hazard a guess and say.....

[KATWYN]

I'm a bad rider then.
What do you do when this conflicts with "ride your own ride"?

By way of example we are on the noob ride on ANZAC day and riders are just rocking up to a corner from the left or right, where ever they happened to be in their stagger pattern.
If there is a pot hole, rough surface, seal repairs, tar bleed or a corner I am out of formation riding my own ride thanks.


IMHO means 'In my humble opinion'

Of course you make allowances for variables in the environment and circumstances!

But in general (without the variables you mentioned) staggered is a safe riding strategy for group riding.
From memory, I think they teach that at motorcycle basic handling school

[lowededwookie]

Actually they don't stand at all Mr wookie, and I don't like the implication that motorcyclists who don't conform to your standards "deserve" injury or death.

"Unresponsible" isn't a word.

Actually it's NOT my standards. Say what you want but there's a reason bike gear was made. If you don't value your life by not wearing proper gear that is designed to protect you and give you a chance if something bad happens then you deserve whatever you get if you come off but hey that's your perogative.

I've had a reasonably serious crash and I was fully kitted up. I busted my wrist but I walked away otherwise fine. A busted wrist mends pretty quickly. My friend's dad didn't have the proper gear. He had jeans, an old leather dress jacket, gloves, and a helmet. He lost his livelyhood when a car knocked him off and he busted his knee. He was in hospital for nearly three months, two years later his knee is still pretty bad and he still can't do carpet laying, in fact he never will so he got into real estate. All of that could have been prevented with the proper gear.


Being responsible doesn't make you a good rider though does it... heck if you are a good rider you shouldn't need to have the gear cause you ain't gonna bin it are you... the responsible bit wearing the gear is even though you are a great rider, you don't trust the other buggers on the road.Being responsible makes you a better rider than being a dick with no regard to other road users. Understand that by better rider I don't mean being able to handle your bike any better.

Riding is, has, and always will be a state of mind. If your mind is screwed then no matter how good a rider you are physically you are still a crap rider. I consider myself a good rider because my mind is so in tune with what I'm doing. I make mistakes yes but I learn from those. I don't go out and actively put myself or other road users in danger because I have some desire to ride fast. If the road suits I will open up. If it's rainy, lots of traffic, twisty, or other riders in a group I will not play silly buggers because it will not be responsible of me to put other lives in danger.

I know that makes me sound like a loser rider but I've done seriously crazy crap like riding 220 over undulating road getting airborne over every crest all while on the wrong side of the road going past intersections where at any point in time a vehicle could pull out without even seeing me - at any stage that said vehicle could have been a truck and trailer unit.

The whole point about riding is the RIDE not about pushing limits and being a hoon. You want to do that do that on the track, that's what it's there for. Doing it on the road is stupid and stupidity does not make you good at anything, except being fertiliser for the daisies.

To state that being a good rider means you shouldn't need gear is bollocks and the most retarded statement ever made. There's a reason why racers wear the gear they do and these guys would leave you for dead on road and on track. They know why they wear the gear and I would hazard a guess that they wouldn't ride on the road without the proper gear.

The point about gear is exactly what you said about not trusting the other road users. Responsibility plays into it here again.

In my original post I mentioned the best form of protection is to treat everyone as though they are out to kill you. By simply knowing that one fact you take the responsibility from them and place it on yourself. YOU learn how traffic flows, YOU learn what drivers are capable of, YOU learn what YOU and YOUR bike are capable of, and YOU wear the correct gear incase something goes wrong. This makes you a good rider and as such my comments about responsibility do indeed still stand.

Responsibility is more than just riding like a nana. The only way to protect yourself from other people is to take as much responsibility as you can.

Never trust anyone not even the greatest rider on the planet to keep you safe. Only you can do that.

And that word should have been "irresponsible" yes but who cares considering there is far worse grammer than mine on this site. ;)

[Disco Dan]

But in general (without the variables you mentioned) staggered is a safe riding strategy for group riding. From memory, I think they teach that at motorcycle basic handling school.

You are correct. However I believe the point was that it becomes dangerous when the formation is kept through a corner in a tight group of riders... rather than breaking formation and taking your own line for the corner - which is the safe way to do it.

[James Deuce]

Mr wookie - hang around KB - read - learn.

I used to have an immature attitude to other people's choices too.

[KATWYN]

You are correct. However I believe the point was that it becomes dangerous when the formation is kept through a corner in a tight group of riders... rather than breaking formation and taking your own line for the corner - which is the safe way to do it.

Yep, I agree. Perhaps when I suggested it, I should have made the point of saying in general
except cornering and the unexpected

[NighthawkNZ]

Being responsible doesn't make you a good rider though does it... heck if you are a good rider you shouldn't need to have the gear cause you ain't gonna bin it are you... the responsible bit wearing the gear is even though you are a great rider, you don't trust the other buggers on the road.


To state that being a good rider means you shouldn't need gear is bollocks and the most retarded statement ever made. There's a reason why racers wear the gear they do and these guys would leave you for dead on road and on track. They know why they wear the gear and I would hazard a guess that they wouldn't ride on the road without the proper gear.

You have taken that out of context as such... I am not saying we shouldn't, even if the helmet law was changed I will always ride fully kitted, including the skid lid... Its only meant to be used as in THEORY... if you are a good rider you shouldn't need the gear... a good rider isn't going to bin it, hes already seen the hazards and adjusted his riding to suit. As I said a helmet doesn't help me ride my bike... it just helps me when I make a stuff up... My boots don't help either...

As for racing well... they are pushing the limits of the bikes, and their skill and are actually at a higher risk than the average biker on the road.


In my original post I mentioned the best form of protection is to treat everyone as though they are out to kill you. By simply knowing that one fact you take the responsibility from them and place it on yourself. YOU learn how traffic flows, YOU learn what drivers are capable of, YOU learn what YOU and YOUR bike are capable of, and YOU wear the correct gear incase something goes wrong. This makes you a good rider and as such my comments about responsibility do indeed still stand.

I have been riding for 20 odd years and have always said this... still doesn't make you a good rider, makes you a good road user not a rider. You should be doing this whether on yah bike or in yah cage or walking as pedistrian crossing the road...

I have been on a couple of rides where th group was being responsable following all the giving laws and cursity etc... but there were a couple in the group that weren't good riders (yes still learning and hopefully I mentored ok to help)

The question “What makes a good rider?”
On road, off road, on track, in the park... on you own private road or track or the farm where you can act like an idiot...?

[NighthawkNZ]

You are correct. However I believe the point was that it becomes dangerous when the formation is kept through a corner in a tight group of riders... rather than breaking formation and taking your own line for the corner - which is the safe way to do it.

In theory you should be able to hold the staggered formation through corners, and still use the whole lane to your advantage...

You still keep the 2 second rule, but not from the bike ahead of you but two bikes a head who is on the same staggered line as you. In the tigher corners the formation does change as you choose the same line round the corners but as you out of the corner the staggered formation should be regained.

The staggered formation allows for movement in your lane if needed. But for it to work as intended, everyone needs to follow it and not be pushy impatient etc

[The Stranger]

IMHO means 'In my humble opinion'

Of course you make allowances for variables in the environment and circumstances!

But in general (without the variables you mentioned) staggered is a safe riding strategy for group riding.
From memory, I think they teach that at motorcycle basic handling school

I dig the IMHO and mine is but the same.
However most people I know head for the twisties and given the number of corners we strike on our roads (thank goodness) and the state of our roads with said tar bleed, pot holes and repairs I don't believe that staggering is an important issue to remember.
Sure stagger where practical, it does permit better vision and an additional safety margin, provided propper following distances are maintained. In my experience however people often tend to close up when in a stagger, believing that they have additional stopping distance. If I pull over to avoid a hazard that additional distance is no longer available.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[yungatart]

Wow! What an informative thread!
I now have it on good authority, that I am a good rider...cos I always wear the gear...(didn't stop my leg or thumb breaking in an accident that was entirely of my own making....)Woohoo!!!!
And all this time, I thought that a good rider was one in control of his/her bike, aware of the environment, recognising potential hazards, and reacting to same, being considerate of other road users.....how wrong can one be?

[Hitcher]

how wrong can one be?

Indeed. I'm off to sell the FJR, buy a crotch rocket and a homosexual one-piece leather suit (with appropriate protection, because one must wear all of the gear all of the time) and ride everywhere balls-to-the-wall. I'm going to be the greatest!

[yungatart]

Indeed. I'm off to sell the FJR, buy a crotch rocket and a homosexual one-piece leather suit (with appropriate protection, because one must wear all of the gear all of the time) and ride everywhere balls-to-the-wall. I'm going to be the greatest!

You have to beat me there to be the greatest!!!!

[Drew]

In my original post I mentioned the best form of protection is to treat everyone as though they are out to kill you. By simply knowing that one fact you take the responsibility from them and place it on yourself. YOU learn how traffic flows, YOU learn what drivers are capable of, YOU learn what YOU and YOUR bike are capable of, and YOU wear the correct gear incase something goes wrong. This makes you a good rider and as such my comments about responsibility do indeed still stand.

Responsibility is more than just riding like a nana. The only way to protect yourself from other people is to take as much responsibility as you can.

Never trust anyone not even the greatest rider on the planet to keep you safe. Only you can do that.

And that word should have been "irresponsible" yes but who cares considering there is far worse grammer than mine on this site. ;)

I bit my tongue when I first read this, because I couldn't be arsed jumping down anyones throat at the time, luckily, that has passed.

WTF are you talking about? A persons strong sense of self preservation, a good rider does not make!!! I ride in jeans and gym shoes quite a bit, every time I'm out cruisin, or just commuting in fact, yet, there are some on here who consider my riding above average.

The gear a person wears, is completely irrelevent, because not all of us can afford the "right" gear. I went bloody mental at Placid femme a while back for making this same statement, it's an unthinkably naive statement, that shows a complete lack of thought put into it.

Grow the fuck up, and think before you speak!

[skelstar]

Grow the fuck up, and think before you speak!
NOw now Drew, just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are immature (oh the irony). :nono:

[Drew]

NOw now Drew, just because someone has a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are immature (oh the irony). :nono:

I take personal offense to being told, that I am not a good rider if I dont have all the right gear is all I'm saying, and the people who told him politely hadn't been listened to. I only came in with with one barrel blazing anyway, if an argument ensues, I'll load up the other fucker:yes:

[Swoop]

It's been said before, SSSSmmmooooothness is the key, someone who looks like theyre going slow while they kick your ass....
In my other playground... we have a saying "Slow = SMOOTH and smooth = FAST".

Trousers. If your trousers are too tight, you don't ride good.
As is the saying "If you are of a nervous disposition, wear brown trousers!".

What will become of those living outside of Auckland now? Finally they can shrug off their inferiority complex, flick that chip off of their shoulders and mature into healthy contributing members of society. (yeah right)
Who will they blame for their miserable existence now that Auckland is finally paying it's way?
Scary, the state of the roads outside of Auckland if the yokels have to pay for their upkeep...

[bell]

I think 'attitude' enters the equation somewhere when talk turns to 'good riders' vs 'not good riders'. Perhaps a bit like car drivers, bus drivers, truck drivers, cyclists, maybe train drivers too. Anyone here drive trains? What makes a good train driver?

[Bonez]

Do you think it's wanky or posy or just uncalled for? .I'll let you guess. Yes it's nice to dream you're a famous international rider. But generally public roads are not race track quality, far more hazards and vehicals travelling in the oppersite direction. Hey, but what do I know.............

I guess it's one way to releive cramp when riding sprot bikes longish distances though.

[MSTRS]

There are some 'interesting' takes on this topic.
If it is possible to identify something that makes a good rider (because the parameters are really a bit too big) I would have to say "a good rider is someone who does not make mistakes"
And after his earlier post/s in this thread, I did a little search http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=433060&postcount=32

[James Deuce]

There are some 'interesting' takes on this topic.
If it is possible to identify something that makes a good rider (because the parameters are really a bit too big) I would have to say "a good rider is someone who does not make mistakes"

That's me fooked then :)

[NighthawkNZ]

If it is possible to identify something that makes a good rider (because the parameters are really a bit too big) I would have to say "a good rider is someone who does not make mistakes"

then there is no such thing is a good rider... as humans make mistakes... full stop

[MSTRS]

That's me fooked then :)

...along with the rest of us...

[terbang]

What makes a good rider?....



One that uses that thing between their ears.

[James Deuce]

One that uses that thing between their ears.

I have no idea how that got there.

[skelstar]

I take personal offense to being told, that I am not a good rider...
Pppbbt...who cares what a random that you've never met thinks of your riding? I don't (try not to) care.

[NighthawkNZ]

One that uses that thing between their ears.

fish food? :scratch:

[Drew]

That's me fooked then :)


...along with the rest of us...


Not to worry lads, the opinions of the ignorant, luckily can be ignored, and chalked up as BOLLUCKS.

The trick to making mistakes, is not panicing, and using what skills you have to get out of trouble. Perhaps that would be my idea of a good rider, someone who has the skill to turn a fuck up, into a mere minor mistake, rather than grab a fist full of front brake and become a bug splat.

[Drew]

Pppbbt...who cares what a random that you've never met thinks of your riding? I don't (try not to) care.


Aint you meant to be somewhere???

[KATWYN]

I dig the IMHO and mine is but the same.
However most people I know head for the twisties and given the number of corners we strike on our roads (thank goodness) and the state of our roads with said tar bleed, pot holes and repairs I don't believe that staggering is an important issue to remember.
.

It was just one that came to mind immediately....reading the debates
re staggering got me thinking a bit more re priority....

[skelstar]

Aint you meant to be somewhere???

Waiting for someone who's meant to be somewhere...

[skelstar]

On topic: level headed, doesn't adopt a peer-pressure mentality, rides within ones limit and seeks to improve without taking unnessessary risks.

[Drew]

Waiting for someone who's meant to be somewhere...

Hehehehe, steeling another thread is fun, she on the scooter?

[Drew]

On topic: level headed, doesn't adopt a peer-pressure mentality, rides within ones limit and seeks to improve without taking unnessessary risks.

I must disagree, I ride with level head, and seldom freak out at running wide, or coming in hot. But anyone that knows me, knows if someone goes past me, I use those skills to go faster to at least keep up.


There are too many variables to say what is, or is not a good rider. Situations never repeat exactly, so there has to be a certain amount of adaptation on the riders part, along with a level head, a safe bike, (lets not forget this, because the best rider in the world, on something I've built but not got round to finishing, is fucked), and sense enough to know when he/she are outclassed.

[skelstar]

I must disagree, I ride with level head, and seldom freak out at running wide, or coming in hot. But anyone that knows me, knows if someone goes past me, I use those skills to go faster to at least keep up.
He he, I only list those qualities cause those are the ones I ride with :)

Whats good for one person's mindset is not necessarily good for another's I suppose. Might be why its taking me a while to get fast...(not fishing)

[Drew]

He he, I only list those qualities cause those are the ones I ride with :)

Whats good for one person's mindset is not necessarily good for another's I suppose. Might be why its taking me a while to get fast...(not fishing)

Just while you have time to contemplate, due to the waiting for a girl, do you think I'm a safe rider? Most will answer with a resounding NO, and yet I am reletively fast. So why is it you want to be fast?

[skelstar]

Ummm...yeah maybe you are. I don't see the fast crew for long but then thats mostly because I'm too damn courteous when we are out riding. For now on I'm going to make you fuckers wait for me on the hill. The pace I'm riding at now I wouldn't have considered safe 6 months ago.

I like to go around corners 'well'. If I can keep up with the good riders that are fast then maybe I'm good too? This sounds like I'm contradicting what I've already said in prev posts but I'm doing this in my own time/ability and still within my limits. I haven't felt I've had to back off yet.

[Keystone19]

Just while you have time to contemplate, due to the waiting for a girl, do you think I'm a safe rider? Most will answer with a resounding NO, and yet I am reletively fast. So why is it you want to be fast?


Ummm...yeah maybe you are. I don't see the fast crew for long but then thats mostly because I'm too damn courteous when we are out riding. For now on I'm going to make you fuckers wait for me on the hill. The pace I'm riding at now I wouldn't have considered safe 6 months ago.

I like to go around corners 'well'. If I can keep up with the good riders that are fast then maybe I'm good too? This sounds like I'm contradicting what I've already said in prev posts but I'm doing this in my own time/ability and still within my limits. I haven't felt I've had to back off yet.

I know yer not asking me, but I think yer both cute...I mean safe - just in different ways!

[FROSTY]

Actually heres a concept many of you will disagree with.
I know i'm a competative person and I like to push the envelope on my bike /bikes. No or limited self control
I came to realise long ago this would end up getting me dead pretty darn quick.
I sold my sprot bike and bought the first of my "old shitters"
The reasion was that the old gal would announce in a pretty loud voice that she was at her limit and not to push it or she would dump my sorry ass on the ground.
But I do regularly ride sprot bikes on the road.
To slow myself down and make me ride more cautiously I ride in jeans or dress trou.
Not something Id reccomend for a new rider but it has kept me riding sanely

[Kittyhawk]

Awesome feed back guys!!

What about if you're riding for years and years? Do bad habits become worse?

[James Deuce]

What about if you're riding for years and years? Do bad habits become worse?

Yes. I reset bad habits with educational track days (actual training course as opposed to brain out slow fanging that KBers seem to love) or road training courses.

At the very least an instructor can point at stuff that is adding to the workload instead of making riding more fun and say, "stop doing that, or start doing this, and life will be easier".

I also get new trousers if they shrink or stretch.

[NighthawkNZ]

What about if you're riding for years and years? Do bad habits become worse?

No matter how long you have been riding you will always pick up something new (If you are willing to learn). So if you are willing to say that you don't know everything then no you habbits don't get worse and if you have bad habbits then you will weed them out.

But if you ar enot open to learn then it is possible

[Grahameeboy]

Awesome feed back guys!!

What about if you're riding for years and years? Do bad habits become worse?

No don't think so..if you have bad habits you either don't learn from them or you do..it's attitude which matters.

I was stupid at times when young and after 27 years would say I am a better rider, can go fast on my own but not in groups and think twice before I do something........but I am still old fart............

[NighthawkNZ]

I also get new trousers...

You have a thing for trousers :scratch:

[Grahameeboy]

Yes. I reset bad habits with educational track days (actual training course as opposed to brain out slow fanging that KBers seem to love) or road training courses.

At the very least an instructor can point at stuff that is adding to the workload instead of making riding more fun and say, "stop doing that, or start doing this, and life will be easier".

I also get new trousers if they shrink or stretch.

:rockon:......................................

[Drew]

I also get new trousers if they shrink or stretch.

By shrink, do you mean, whenever they become too tight, which is automaticly put down to them shrinking, rather than you expanding?:dodge:

But yep, the right trousers are still the most important thing.

[Ixion]

,,In my experience however people often tend to close up when in a stagger, believing that they have additional stopping distance. If I pull over to avoid a hazard that additional distance is no longer available.



Tight stagger, front of your front wheel is level with the back of your wheelman's back wheel. So you're one bike length from the guy directly in front of you. And you better not stuff up, unless you want an interesting discussion with the Ride Captain and the Master at Arms.

[hurricane_r]

*if u cant scrape your footpeg whilst not in a lowside you suck,

*if u watch the cars not the ppl when filtering ur a douchebag

*if u got big ass chicken strips ur a panzie

[Maha]

And if you post diddle bashing shit like that you blow pole's.....:yes:

[hurricane_r]

your homosexual/.?

[Drew]

*if u cant scrape your footpeg whilst not in a lowside you suck,

*if u watch the cars not the ppl when filtering ur a douchebag

*if u got big ass chicken strips ur a panzie

All three of these are a bit queer I think.

[Disco Dan]

All three of these are a bit queer I think.

BAM ! ...and the dirt is gone! :done:

[hurricane_r]

then u why u bother having a gsxr1000?

[Drew]

then u why u bother having a gsxr1000?

Come to Taupo next weekend, and inspect my footpegs, and tyres pal, but it aint a requirment for a good rider.

It's possible to scrape the pegs doin U turns, and chicken strips are relative to how hard your bike pushes the front.

I think I've already said this somewhere, think about what you're saying, before you open you gob.

[Disco Dan]

damit... it came back...

Go the Fizzer!!! :rockon:

[hurricane_r]

Come to Taupo next weekend, and inspect my footpegs, and tyres pal, but it aint a requirment for a good rider.

It's possible to scrape the pegs doin U turns, and chicken strips are relative to how hard your bike pushes the front.

I think I've already said this somewhere, think about what you're saying, before you open you gob.

wow i just ate alot of sushi,,, oh eh.... jeeez calm down

[Maha]

your homosexual/.?

Sorry Darling, was directed at meeeeee mmmmmmmm? have you stoped that profuse sweating yet?....you know how you get when playing with the big boys....:love:

[MSTRS]

*if u cant scrape your footpeg whilst not in a lowside you suck,

*if u watch the cars not the ppl when filtering ur a douchebag

*if u got big ass chicken strips ur a panzie

*if u cant stop wanking ul go blind

[Drew]

wow i just ate alot of sushi,,, oh eh.... jeeez calm down

I'm always calm, I just have a low tollerence for idiots.

[hurricane_r]

so i guess theres no mirriors in your house/.?

[hurricane_r]

*if u cant stop wanking ul go blind

thanks, dont worry, il never be like you mate, cheers for the advice tho

[R1madness]

Smooth = fast.
Fast does not always = smooth.
Try to do your fav ride without using the brakes. You will learn a lot about corner entry speeds and smooth lines.
Different bikes suit different riding styles. Knee down on a hypersports bike is the same as foot down on a chookie. Its just the style darling.

[Bonez]

on the road it's someone who doesn't routinely use the brakes...and doesn't need to. same thing as being smooth / deceptively fast.

has seen the corner etc early enough to do something about it without the brakes...whatever speed they're doing... and only uses the brakes for an emergency stop.

I score myself on how i'm doing, and if I use the brakes on a ride then I got it wrong. Try riding a road you've never riden before that has really tight twisty roads and not use your brakes? Bit like the road Storm and myself discovered yesterday on or little wet sojourn via back roads to Havelock North. A good rider knows how to use his/her brakes "effectively" in ALL riding situations.

[Bonez]

isn't it easier to stop and pee?No pushbike tube on the wee falla which is routed down and out the bottem of your trou does an effective job.

[hurricane_r]

hahaha, good idea!

[Morcs]

Ditto. Do find "knee downs/outs" on public roads quite ammusing though.

Tis quite amusing. My last sliders lasted a week on the roads before I wore them out... :yes:

As for what makes a good rider - its purely opinion. Someone who has ridden for 40 years due to riding really safe and nana'ish could be classed as a good rider by some, whearas someone who goes hard, has evident skill, takes risks and enjoys themselves would be classed a good rider by others - my view being the latter.

[The Stranger]

They're amusing when you're following someone on a sprotsbike who's hanging way off in every corner , knee stuck right out. And you're following him through at the same pace, on a chook chaser, with knobbly tyres , sitting up nice and comfy. Not sure if Valentino has chook chasers after him .

So ok, maybe I have been under the wrong impression here. Perhaps you could straighten up a couple of points for me.
1) You have to lean a bike to in a corner to (amongst other things) counteract the centrifugal force that would otherwise tip you off your bike on a corner.
2) To counter that force, you have to get X amount of weight inside the wheel track. All things (weight, bike speed etc) equal, 2 bikes must get the same amount of weight inside the corner in order to go around it.
3) You can achieve this by either a) staying seated and leaning further or b) getting off of the bike and not leaning the bike so far.
4) Suspension was designed to opperate most effectively when the wheel is perpindicular to the road surface. Thus if you do hang off and say enounter a mid corner bump or dip and your bike is nearer perpindicular the suspension is better able to absorb it.
5) If your bike is nearer perpinciular and you encounter an obstruction does this not give more room for escape, as in taking a tighter line if required.
6) If you misjudge your speed for a corner and/or the corner tightens does not the bike being nearer perpindicular have a greater ground clearance should it be needed to again take a tighter line?

Also, what is the weight of your chook chaser. Mine is 120kg my road bike is about 200kg are you comparing apples with apples?

I am NOT advocating here that is a necessity, but I see no problem with it, nor with people experimenting, practicing and testing.

[Ixion]

So you are arguing that all riders should be hanging off with the knee out on every roundabout, then?

The climb off the bike , knee down riding position is an extreme one, developed by racers for race track level cornering. Its primary purpose is to prevent the risk of the tyre rolling off the tread edge.

I have no problem with you, or anyone else, hanging off knee down on every corner. But unless you're going through them at something like race speed I will smile to myself. And if you are going through at race speed , justifying the riding position, I'll frown to myself, for other reasons.

Same thing with those (like a certain gentleman recently) who like to adopt a motard , foot down style on the road.

Race riding for the race track. Road roading for the road. Works for me.

[The Stranger]

So you are arguing that all riders should be hanging off with the knee out on every roundabout, then?



No. That is a womans argument - it must be one way or the other - I did not say that at all. However if some whish to experiment on closed roundabouts at Albany for example more power to them. You do learn about limits and how it feels at those limits.

However feel free to point out, as I asked of you, where I am wrong there. I am not saying I am right, it is not a challenge, I am genuinely interested in learning.

[Bonez]

hahaha, good idea!Just make sure you cut the tube either side of the valve stem or it could get quite nasty.

[Morcs]

No. That is a womans argument - it must be one way or the other - I did not say that at all. However if some whish to experiment on closed roundabouts at Albany for example more power to them. You do learn about limits and how it feels at those limits.

However feel free to point out, as I asked of you, where I am wrong there. I am not saying I am right, it is not a challenge, I am genuinely interested in learning.

:laugh:

Les is obviously talking about me... on the Kaiaua run I was shifting my weight around in every corner, knee stuck out - just to get in the habit of it with the trackday coming up. Yes les you were doing the same speed without doing what I was doing because I wasnt pushing it, and certainly not going fast enough to need to lean into corners that much - just getting into the habit.

But knee down on twilight road.... im please with that particular achievement :)

[yod]

No pushbike tube on the wee falla which is routed down and out the bottem of your trou does an effective job.

i wondered what that little trail was behind your bike....

eeeewwwwwww

[Bonez]

i wondered what that little trail was behind your bike....

eeeewwwwwwwHow did that Christie song go again. Oh yes-

So long, boy you can take my place
I've got my papers, I've got my pay
So pack my bags and I'll be on my way
To Yellow River

Put my gun down, the war is won
Fill my glass high, the time has come
I'm going back to the place that I love
Yellow River

Yellow River
Yellow River is in my mind and in my eyes
Yellow River
Yellow River is in my blood, it's the place I love

Got no time for explanations
Got no time to lose
Tomorrow night you'll find me sleeping underneath the moon
At Yellow River

Cannon fire lingers in my mind
I'm so glad that I'm still alive
And I've been gone for such a long time
From Yellow River

I remember the nights were cool
I can still see the water pool
And I remember the girl that I knew
From Yellow River

[Crazy Steve]

A pulse..

Crazy Steve..

[yod]

How did that Christie song go again. Oh yes-



EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cowboyz]

So you are arguing that all riders should be hanging off with the knee out on every roundabout, then?

The climb off the bike , knee down riding position is an extreme one, developed by racers for race track level cornering. Its primary purpose is to prevent the risk of the tyre rolling off the tread edge.

I have no problem with you, or anyone else, hanging off knee down on every corner. But unless you're going through them at something like race speed I will smile to myself. And if you are going through at race speed , justifying the riding position, I'll frown to myself, for other reasons.

Same thing with those (like a certain gentleman recently) who like to adopt a motard , foot down style on the road.

Race riding for the race track. Road roading for the road. Works for me.

couldnt agree more. especially the difference between road riding and track riding. The 2 styles of riding present different challenges for the rider and I enjoy both for theie differences.

[Bonez]

couldnt agree more. especially the difference between road riding and track riding. The 2 styles of riding present different challenges for the rider and I enjoy both for theie differences.How many GSX600Fs does it take to hold up a fence? ;). Carefull now, it's a trick question.......................

[pritch]

(didn't stop my leg or thumb breaking in an accident that was entirely of my own making....)


Certainly an interesting thread but I don't really think that what makes a "good rider" could be put in one sentence. Most of us would never agree on what a good rider is anyway.

Thing is though, the phrase in bold above indicates that you have the right attitude. Others blame the bike, the road, the tyres, whatever...
Anything but themselves.

Acknowledging that you might have done it better means you have an attitude that will permit you to improve.

My personal aims are limited, I don't want to be Rossi (despite this avatar), if I can plan rides and trips and enjoy them without too many scary moments while keeping it shiny side up I'll be happy.

Keep riding, keep reading, keep learning, keep trying to improve...
Don't ride with people who make you uncomfortable for any reason.
Stay safe

[cowboyz]

snipped a whole heap of stuff that is well worth reading but snipped none the less to make my point


Don't ride with people who make you uncomfortable for any reason.
Stay safe

I especially like this comment. Attending organised kiwibiker rides where often you are riding with strangers can often put you in a posiiton where you can be riding with someone who makes you uncomfortable. It is not hard to leave the next stop at a different time and especially on the bigger rides you can surround yourself with people who do make you feel comfortable.

Did that make any sense?

[doc]

I especially like this comment. Attending organised kiwibiker rides where often you are riding with strangers can often put you in a posiiton where you can be riding with someone who makes you uncomfortable. It is not hard to leave the next stop at a different time and especially on the bigger rides you can surround yourself with people who do make you feel comfortable.

Did that make any sense?
Exactly and too the point. It's about male tetestrone. Defencive riding includes riding within your limits not just interpreting what the cages are going to do. But avoiding getting into "I've got a bigger one than you have" situations .

[MSTRS]

Exactly and too the point. It's about male tetestrone. Defencive riding includes riding within your limits not just interpreting what the cages are going to do. But avoiding getting into "I've got a bigger one than you have" situations .

Yep. The other part is that the people you ride regular with only get that way by being 'complementary' to one's own style, Whereas strangers are unfamiliar and more difficult to anticipate.

[Kittyhawk]

How many GSX600Fs does it take to hold up a fence? ;). Carefull now, it's a trick question.......................

Does Disco Dan count for this question?

[Bonez]

Does Disco Dan count for this question?
I'll let cowboyz take all the glory. Totally forgot about it till he reminded me last night. Over to you Lance!

[doc]

Yep. The other part is that the people you ride regular with only get that way by being 'complementary' to one's own style, Whereas strangers are unfamiliar and more difficult to anticipate.
Yep I've got a bigga one syndrome

[yungatart]

Yep I've got a bigga one syndrome

Maybe, but there is a whole lot more to that than testosterone.
On ANZAC day, the Manawatu lot met up with the HB lot and had an ANZAC adventure. I joined the group in the afternoon as I had prior committments in the morning.
None of those riders did anything dangerous/scary/intimidating anywhere near me....nonetheless, I felt uncomfortable and out of my depth, so chose to leave the group and ride home...it was not about their overload of testosterone - more about my lack of it!

[cowboyz]

I'll let cowboyz take all the glory. Totally forgot about it till he reminded me last night. Over to you Lance!

still sitting on the fence (so to say) and saying no comment,.......

[doc]

Maybe, but there is a whole lot more to that than testosterone.
None of those riders did anything dangerous/scary/intimidating anywhere near me....nonetheless, I felt uncomfortable and out of my depth, so chose to leave the group and ride home...it was not about their overload of testosterone - more about my lack of it!
But yur a girl you don't have our problem . We can't do that and look at each other in the morning and have any respect.

[yungatart]

Get over it! Who cares what other people think anyway? Would be true to say that most of them don't think anyway.....

[Drew]

So ok...blah blah blah



Only one of your comments doesn't quite ring true, where you said aboput keeping the bike upright to better cope with bumps. I'm not privy with the exact mechanics of it, but mid corner, a bump measuring 40mm in hight, turns into 56.56mm of suspension travel with the bike at 45 degrees. The difference hanging off makes, is very small to the overall lean angle, so it is the frame moving lateraly that has to absorb a lot of said bump.

Anyhoo, a good rider needs to know none of this, nor does a fast rider, IMHO, a good rider only needs to get on and be in control.

[JayRacer37]

IMHO, a good rider only needs to get on and be in control.

AMEN.
Well - mostly in control, for the majority of the time....hah.
Nope, well in control, someone who is thinking about their actions and how these may effect people around him/her.

[Disco Dan]

Does Disco Dan count for this question?

The holding up of fences *aka disco corner* was a zzr. Humpf.

I dont ride the KB group rides simply because I feel pressured to ride outside of my abilities - testosterone. I ride with a couple of people outside of KB that actually tought me how to ride originally, and know my limits. They both ride very large bikes, but will let me keep pace as well as follow their lines at set speeds etc.

I ride within my limits, pushing them when the conditions and my pocket allow. As my bike is my only form of transport I usually aire on the side of caution in my riding. For some that may = slow. For me, it is practice.

[cowboyz]

This particular corner Bonez is on about they were giving me a hard time about last night. It was a while ago and a nice fine ride up the managawekas and a corner that I thought was 90 degrees turned out to be 180 degrees and I had a bit of a lockup and took my gsx600f offroading for a bit. They like to bring it up cause I am a tad (is that the correct word) hardish on guys who fall off their bikes.
However on this occasion, Although a bit of off roading and closeup fence inpection I did not fall off or drop the bike................

[The Stranger]

The difference hanging off makes, is very small to the overall lean angle, so it is the frame moving lateraly that has to absorb a lot of said bump.


If you get the chance at all look at the photo on Page 20 of Lee Parks book Total Control. It shows 3 riders each taking the same corner at the same time. Each has a different body position and clearly the rider whom is hanging off the most has the most upright bike, by a reasonable margin. Conversely the bike with the rider actually leaning out of the corner clearly has the greatest lean angle.

[skelstar]

I lean off my bike, and I'm a semi-nana. I know I don't 'need to', but the fact of the matter is: it feels cool and ACTUALLY gives me a degree of confidence. It feels like I'm holding the bike above me a bit. Maybe I also feel like I'm keeping some weight a bit more forward over my front wheel too huh?

Nothing wrong with that eh?

Drew. fetch your slide-rule brother!

[Drew]

I lean off my bike, and I'm a semi-nana. I know I don't 'need to', but the fact of the matter is: it feels cool and ACTUALLY gives me a degree of confidence. It feels like I'm holding the bike above me a bit. Maybe I also feel like I'm keeping some weight a bit more forward over my front wheel too huh?

Nothing wrong with that eh?

Drew. fetch your slide-rule brother!


No need for the rule bruva, your pegs hit the deck with your arse off the seat, so you've reached the good rider/fast rider transition. The key to that I think, is not to let ego interfere with the progression.

[Ixion]

If you get the chance at all look at the photo on Page 20 of Lee Parks book Total Control. It shows 3 riders each taking the same corner at the same time. Each has a different body position and clearly the rider whom is hanging off the most has the most upright bike, by a reasonable margin. Conversely the bike with the rider actually leaning out of the corner clearly has the greatest lean angle.

But you are assuming that lean angle is the be all and end all. It is more complex than that.

Consider a bike going through a corner. Let us assume for simplicity that it is a simple corner, no bumps, unlimited ground clearance, dry road, no gravel, sight lines right through the corner, and that corner speed is not limited by engine power etc. In reality of course, such a perfect state of affairs would be unlikely.

Now, in such a case the limits to the speed the bike can corner at will be determined by two things. (a) the adhesion of the tyres. As the bike goes through the corner, an outward force (I am SO not getting into the centripetal/centrifugal thing - an outward force) will try to push the bike sideways to the outside of the corner. This has to be resisted by the grip of the tyres on the road. At some point, the outward force will be greater than the tyres can resist.

The result we know - the bike will lowside (I know, a skilled rider can control a gentle slide. Let us keep this simple). Or possibly the tyres may slip, then grip again (perhaps they found a bit better patch of road, perhaps the rider panice and backed off, or whatever). The result is a highside. Nasty.

The other limit, (b) is when the bike is leaned over so much that the tyre reaches the edge of its tread. The tread on a sprots bike does not go right round to the rim. There has to be a sidewall. Once the edge of the tread is reache, either the contact patch becomes much reduced, thus reducing the amount of grip resisting the outward force - see (a); or the bike will quite suddenly "fall over" onto the side of the tyre, causing a nasty dumping lowside.

Obviously, we need to delay either event as long as possible.

Now let us consider the effect of leaning, and of shifting centres of gravity. This is the bit where we talk about conic sections. You will have to draw little sketches in your head. I am not going to draw them, because I suck at drawing things. You will have to use your imagination.

A bike, leaned over and going through a corner describes a path determined by the path of travel of a conic section having its base the plane of the centre of gravity of the moving mass. Note that, it is important, it is the moving mass which matters, not the bike itself. The vertical axis of the cone is drawn at a right angle to the mass centre intersecting a line drawn along the ground from the contact centre of the wheel.

Now clearly we see (I said, use your imagination) that if the plane of the centre of mass be moved inward toward the apex (of the conic section, not the corner), then the circumference of the path of travel will be less. In other words the same amount of road (the corner) wil be traversed in less time. Which is another way of saying that for the same angle of lean the speed will be greater . Or conversely for the same speed you need to lean less.

But. there is no such thing as a free lunch. There are two prices you must pay for this (two in terms of physics, others perhaps in terms of practicality). The movement inward of the mass centre increases the speed of traverse of the nominal conic path. That in turn will clearly mean that the outward force will be greater.(think of swinging a bucket on a rope slowly then rapidly - which will be harder to hang on to?). Which is to say, you will be putting more force on your tyres for the same lean angle (but going faster). This does not matter, UNLESS you are near the limits of tyre adhesion.

The second complication is that in practical reality, hanging off will almost always mean that the CoM is not only brought inward, but lowered. Now this is undesireable, since, other things being equal, a higher CoM will mean a steeper cone face, which once again means a higher speed.

In other words, a bike with a high CoM will be able to go through a corner at a certain speed with less lean that a bike with a lower CoM

So the effects of the movement inward of the CoM will conflict with the movement downward of the coM. Ideally we would like to move mass inward, and stay at the same height. That is difficult on a road bike.

And, our inward movement means more stress on the tyre grip.

But, we will lessen the risk of our tyres reaching the edge of the tread, since for a given speed we will be more upright.

Back in the classic days, Mike Hailwood and Joey Dunlop et al did not hang off. This was, in no small part, because the tradeoffs would have been negative to them. Tyres then were narrow (4.5" on a Manx Norton) and did not have today's sticky compounds. The narrow tyres had a more nearly hemispherical shape. Modern tyres are wide section , and low profile. They cannot be as "curved" as the old ones. Mike was not really worried about rolling over the edge of the tread, any more than a present day 50cc racer is. But he was very worried about low siding when his not-very-sticky-at-all tyres ran out of grip. For him, that was the important thing, how long would the tyres hang on. He didn't need to hang off, he could easily lean the bike until he reached the limits of adhesion. Hanging off would just have meant he had to slow down, or lowside.

Modern day racers have super sticky tyres. But they have a wide and relatively (I said, relatively) flat profile. You can reach the edge of the tread, leaned over, before you run out of stick. So it makes sense for a modern day racer to hang off. He increases his speed through the turn, and also delays the point at which he reaches the tread edge.

So, does hanging off also make sense on the road? It depends I guess on how near the conditions are to racing. If you have super sports tyres and you are cornering at the maximum possible speed you will increase your speed by hanging off. The bigger the bike (and thus the bigger the tyres) the more this will be so

But if you are not maxxed out, or if you have more "normal" tyres , you may actualy get into the same negative payback territory as Mike. Especially if you have those "dual compound" tyres with a hard centre section for long wear, and soft outer tread for grip. Because if you hang off when not flat tit round the corner, the resultant lesser lean angle may be such as to put the tyre on the hard not-so-grippy bit. At the same time as the increased outward force (from hanging off) is trying to break that grip.

And there may be practical downsides to hanging off. Doing so on a right hander puts your head further over toward the centre line. Racers do not have to worry about traffic coming the other way, but we do. The cage coming toward you may see your bike and think to allow room. He may not expect your head or leg to be several feet further over the centre line. And if you have to move back from the line, then you probably lose any benefit of the hanging out.

On a left hander , hanging off you markedly reduce your visibility , especially to the all important other-traffic-coming right - you can't see through the bike. Overall being lower will further reduce visibility.

And on the road the unexpected happens. I will argue that you have a much better chance of making a sudden change of direction or braking hard if you are reasonably upright in the seat. Switching from hanging off to the left, to veering right is a slow business.

There is nothing wrong with hanging off (the knee down bit I think largely irrelevant) . And if you have race type tyres and are cornering at the maximum your tyres can go over to, it will certainly increase your speed through the corner. Should you be cornering at those speeds on the public road? That is another question.

But if you do not have wide section race type super sticky tyres, you will probably gain nothing , as compared with simply leaning a bit more. And may even be worse off.

And for all riders, the hanging off position involves dangers on the raod which the racer does not need to take into account.

I do not think that the vast majority of riders who hang off and try to get their knee down do so because they need to in order to get round the corner. I suspect that in the majority of cases it is because they think it looks "cool". Which does not seem a very good reason to do anything let alone somehting that increases risk

[Drew]

The above post makes sense, but goes off topic I think. These are all things a good rider need not know. Simply because, a good rider is in control, irrespective of speed. They travel at speeds they can still control, knowing that limit is just a part of a good rider.

[NighthawkNZ]

They travel at speeds they can still control, knowing that limit is just a part of a good rider.

bingo... a good rider will also know his/her limits... the limits of the road/track and the limits of the bike

[pritch]

Came across this at "smoko" (haven't smoked in over thirty years but...) thought it might be relevant. More to some than others?

[Morcs]

But you are assuming that lean angle is the be all and end all. It is more complex than that.

Consider a bike going through a corner. Let us assume for simplicity that it is a simple corner, no bumps, unlimited ground clearance, dry road, no gravel, sight lines right through the corner, and that corner speed is not limited by engine power etc. In reality of course, such a perfect state of affairs would be unlikely.

Now, in such a case the limits to the speed the bike can corner at will be determined by two things. (a) the adhesion of the tyres. As the bike goes through the corner, an outward force (I am SO not getting into the centripetal/centrifugal thing - an outward force) will try to push the bike sideways to the outside of the corner. This has to be resisted by the grip of the tyres on the road. At some point, the outward force will be greater than the tyres can resist.

The result we know - the bike will lowside (I know, a skilled rider can control a gentle slide. Let us keep this simple). Or possibly the tyres may slip, then grip again (perhaps they found a bit better patch of road, perhaps the rider panice and backed off, or whatever). The result is a highside. Nasty.

The other limit, (b) is when the bike is leaned over so much that the tyre reaches the edge of its tread. The tread on a sprots bike does not go right round to the rim. There has to be a sidewall. Once the edge of the tread is reache, either the contact patch becomes much reduced, thus reducing the amount of grip resisting the outward force - see (a); or the bike will quite suddenly "fall over" onto the side of the tyre, causing a nasty dumping lowside.

Obviously, we need to delay either event as long as possible.

Now let us consider the effect of leaning, and of shifting centres of gravity. This is the bit where we talk about conic sections. You will have to draw little sketches in your head. I am not going to draw them, because I suck at drawing things. You will have to use your imagination.

A bike, leaned over and going through a corner describes a path determined by the path of travel of a conic section having its base the plane of the centre of gravity of the moving mass. Note that, it is important, it is the moving mass which matters, not the bike itself. The vertical axis of the cone is drawn at a right angle to the mass centre intersecting a line drawn along the ground from the contact centre of the wheel.

Now clearly we see (I said, use your imagination) that if the plane of the centre of mass be moved inward toward the apex (of the conic section, not the corner), then the circumference of the path of travel will be less. In other words the same amount of road (the corner) wil be traversed in less time. Which is another way of saying that for the same angle of lean the speed will be greater . Or conversely for the same speed you need to lean less.

But. there is no such thing as a free lunch. There are two prices you must pay for this (two in terms of physics, others perhaps in terms of practicality). The movement inward of the mass centre increases the speed of traverse of the nominal conic path. That in turn will clearly mean that the outward force will be greater.(think of swinging a bucket on a rope slowly then rapidly - which will be harder to hang on to?). Which is to say, you will be putting more force on your tyres for the same lean angle (but going faster). This does not matter, UNLESS you are near the limits of tyre adhesion.

The second complication is that in practical reality, hanging off will almost always mean that the CoM is not only brought inward, but lowered. Now this is undesireable, since, other things being equal, a higher CoM will mean a steeper cone face, which once again means a higher speed.

In other words, a bike with a high CoM will be able to go through a corner at a certain speed with less lean that a bike with a lower CoM

So the effects of the movement inward of the CoM will conflict with the movement downward of the coM. Ideally we would like to move mass inward, and stay at the same height. That is difficult on a road bike.

And, our inward movement means more stress on the tyre grip.

But, we will lessen the risk of our tyres reaching the edge of the tread, since for a given speed we will be more upright.

Back in the classic days, Mike Hailwood and Joey Dunlop et al did not hang off. This was, in no small part, because the tradeoffs would have been negative to them. Tyres then were narrow (4.5" on a Manx Norton) and did not have today's sticky compounds. The narrow tyres had a more nearly hemispherical shape. Modern tyres are wide section , and low profile. They cannot be as "curved" as the old ones. Mike was not really worried about rolling over the edge of the tread, any more than a present day 50cc racer is. But he was very worried about low siding when his not-very-sticky-at-all tyres ran out of grip. For him, that was the important thing, how long would the tyres hang on. He didn't need to hang off, he could easily lean the bike until he reached the limits of adhesion. Hanging off would just have meant he had to slow down, or lowside.

Modern day racers have super sticky tyres. But they have a wide and relatively (I said, relatively) flat profile. You can reach the edge of the tread, leaned over, before you run out of stick. So it makes sense for a modern day racer to hang off. He increases his speed through the turn, and also delays the point at which he reaches the tread edge.

So, does hanging off also make sense on the road? It depends I guess on how near the conditions are to racing. If you have super sports tyres and you are cornering at the maximum possible speed you will increase your speed by hanging off. The bigger the bike (and thus the bigger the tyres) the more this will be so

But if you are not maxxed out, or if you have more "normal" tyres , you may actualy get into the same negative payback territory as Mike. Especially if you have those "dual compound" tyres with a hard centre section for long wear, and soft outer tread for grip. Because if you hang off when not flat tit round the corner, the resultant lesser lean angle may be such as to put the tyre on the hard not-so-grippy bit. At the same time as the increased outward force (from hanging off) is trying to break that grip.

And there may be practical downsides to hanging off. Doing so on a right hander puts your head further over toward the centre line. Racers do not have to worry about traffic coming the other way, but we do. The cage coming toward you may see your bike and think to allow room. He may not expect your head or leg to be several feet further over the centre line. And if you have to move back from the line, then you probably lose any benefit of the hanging out. When hanging off, your arms should be almost straight, head shouldnt sticking out that far if you take a road line.
On a left hander , hanging off you markedly reduce your visibility , especially to the all important other-traffic-coming right - you can't see through the bike. Overall being lower will further reduce visibility.

And on the road the unexpected happens. I will argue that you have a much better chance of making a sudden change of direction or braking hard if you are reasonably upright in the seat. Switching from hanging off to the left, to veering right is a slow business.
Not if you know how to ride. Even at full lean its possible to change direction quickly without changing body position all that much. its control.

There is nothing wrong with hanging off (the knee down bit I think largely irrelevant) . And if you have race type tyres and are cornering at the maximum your tyres can go over to, it will certainly increase your speed through the corner. Should you be cornering at those speeds on the public road? That is another question.

But if you do not have wide section race type super sticky tyres, you will probably gain nothing , as compared with simply leaning a bit more. And may even be worse off.

And for all riders, the hanging off position involves dangers on the raod which the racer does not need to take into account.
I Agree. I hit a 2 inch pothole on a roundabout with knee down..


I do not think that the vast majority of riders who hang off and try to get their knee down do so because they need to in order to get round the corner. I suspect that in the majority of cases it is because they think it looks "cool". Which does not seem a very good reason to do anything let alone somehting that increases risk

Way too much time on ones hands methinks...

Yes I did read it...

Just get yourself on the track.

[Morcs]

So Les, answer me this:

Buell go to huge lengths to get the centre of mass low by many means. But like you said, that a lower centre of mass (CoM) equates to greater lean angle and conversely a higher CoM will mean less lean is required.

So are buells not one of the best handling bikes?

[Kittyhawk]

It dosent matter how you take a corner, weather its leaning off a bike or not...not all bikes are designed to lean off....its weather you do it safely and be in control that matters..

Its easy to throw power on but harder to take it off sometimes.

[The_Dover]

I thought if you rode like a hyperactive spider monkey with hemorrhoids that you were both fast and fucking cool??

[doc]

I thought if you rode like a hyperactive spider monkey with hemorrhoids that you were both fast and fucking cool??
Finn has been giving you advice again aye ?

[James Deuce]

Way too much time on ones hands methinks...

Yes I did read it...

Just get yourself on the track.

Buell don't go for a low CoG.

They go for mass centralisation. The means that the main mass of the bike rotates about the mass centre of the bike, which is in line with the centre of rotation, causing the least disturbance to suspension and tyres possible during direction transitions and braking and acceleration.

[skelstar]

I think if you spend too much time thinking about what you should be doing you'll probably friggin crash.

If theres two schools of thought that don't have hard evidence of whether it works well or not, then probably means that there is not 'right' answer and its going to be down to what works for you.

That works for me :done:

[Morcs]

I thought if you rode like a hyperactive spider monkey with hemorrhoids that you were both fast and fucking cool??

Ive just found a new signature hehe...

i agree too...

[Morcs]

Buell don't go for a low CoG.

They go for mass centralisation. The means that the main mass of the bike rotates about the mass centre of the bike, which is in line with the centre of rotation, causing the least disturbance to suspension and tyres possible during direction transitions and braking and acceleration.

I did say Centre of mass, not Centre of gravity... read carefully :yes:

[The Stranger]

Buell don't go for a low CoG.

They go for mass centralisation. The means that the main mass of the bike rotates about the mass centre of the bike, which is in line with the centre of rotation, causing the least disturbance to suspension and tyres possible during direction transitions and braking and acceleration.

From Buell:

Mass Centralisation: The motorcycle’s centre of mass is located as low as possible and centralised within the chassis. For example, the muffler is located below the engine and between the wheels, rather than the high-and-aft position typical of most sportbikes. Fuel is carried within the hollow spars of the aluminium frame, rather than high on the motorcycle in a traditional fuel tank. For the same reason, the swingarm doubles as the engine oil reservoir. The result is a motorcycle that feels almost intuitively responsive to rider input.

[Ixion]

So Les, answer me this:

Buell go to huge lengths to get the centre of mass low by many means. But like you said, that a lower centre of mass (CoM) equates to greater lean angle and conversely a higher CoM will mean less lean is required.

So are buells not one of the best handling bikes?

What Mr Jim2 said. It's the old story, no free lunches.

If a high CoM were the magic answer to good handling , all we'd need to do would be mount a cannon ball on a long pipe .

High CoM means less lean needed for the same speed. But it also means greater outward force on the tyres (that sticky issue again). And much more pendulum effect when switching direction, or when hitting a bump. Remember our hypothetical scenario was very artificial. No bumps , perfect simple corner etc. In the real world, we don't usually assess a bike as good handling or not by how it behaves in a gentle smooth perfect surface corner. We assess it by how it handles a "bad" corner. And bumps bring a whole RAFT of other things into the picture. We also assumed that the bike had a rigid front and rear end. As soon as you add suspension you've got new issues. That high CoM is going to give the suspension a MUCH harder time than a low centralised mass.

Basic message I was trying to get across was bike design is an art. There's no magic way to design the perfect bike. Otherwise all the manufacturers would do it. Likewise, hanging off, or foot down , may be a perfectly valid way to go round a corner. But its not axiomatically the fastest way round , or the "right" way, or the "big boys'" way. (It may be considered a "cool" way, I don't know anything about that. I don't do cool). So if someone is hanging off, or motarding, they should have a reason for doing it.

[Bonez]

This particular corner Bonez is on about they were giving me a hard time about last night. It was a while ago and a nice fine ride up the managawekas and a corner that I thought was 90 degrees turned out to be 180 degrees and I had a bit of a lockup and took my gsx600f offroading for a bit. They like to bring it up cause I am a tad (is that the correct word) hardish on guys who fall off their bikes.
However on this occasion, Although a bit of off roading and closeup fence inpection I did not fall off or drop the bike................Because the fence held you up..............................And the mighty GB toodled off into the distance ;).

[yod]

Because the fence held you up..............................And the mighty GB toodled off into the distance ;).

a honda was in front AGAIN!??!?!?!

this is getting boring...:laugh:

[Finn]

They go for mass centralisation. The means that the main mass of the bike rotates about the mass centre of the bike

Kinda built like Dover then.

[James Deuce]

Poor bugger. Amazing how they settle down with a lass and a wee bairn and they turn into a beachball. Why just the other day I looked down and couldn't see my feet (Size 13) let alone anything else important. I can't remember if I'm Jewish or not.

[Disco Dan]

Poor bugger. Amazing how they settle down with a lass and a wee bairn and they turn into a beachball. Why just the other day I looked down and couldn't see my feet (Size 13) let alone anything else important. I can't remember if I'm Jewish or not.


ahhhhhh...... :dodge:

[Kittyhawk]

Haha...

What would make him a good rider???:shutup:

[peasea]

Haha...

What would make him a good rider???:shutup:

A Fatboy???

[aff-man]

what makes a good rider.... Well my stunning good looks do help.

listen to the advise of more experienced riders BUT always find a way to ride that makes you feel comfortable, If you try something and it doesn't feel right, it may not be the thing for you.

[coreys]

A good rider IMHO is one that comes home alive.
But seriously...a rider that knows his/her limits as well as those of his/her bike. Also if you can ride a bike and get off with stupid grin on ya face....you're Ok by me
(ps you have to be able to scull a pint)

[Big Dave]

A good rider IMHO is one that comes home alive.
But seriously...a rider that knows his/her limits as well as those of his/her bike. Also if you can ride a bike and get off with stupid grin on ya face....you're Ok by me
(ps you have to be able to scull a pint)

Yeah - I'm with that - 'survival' over a period of time indicates a good rider.

'Smoothness' has a lot going for it too.

I rate 'predictability' highly.
My little mate Rusty won a world proddy bike championship and knows how to steer them. He said, 'The best compliment you can pay a bloke on the road is that you can predict when, where and what they are going to do. They are by far the safest because it's the same as I'm gunna do and I'm not gunna run up their arse.'
Pragmatist our Russ.

[Deadman Walking]

Yeah - I'm with that - 'survival' over a period of time indicates a good rider.

'Smoothness' has a lot going for it too.

I rate 'predictability' highly.
My little mate Rusty won a world proddy bike championship and knows how to steer them. He said, 'The best compliment you can pay a bloke on the road is that you can predict when, where and what they are going to do. They are by far the safest because it's the same as I'm gunna do and I'm not gunna run up their arse.'
Pragmatist our Russ.

personally I rate a rider (particularly those in front of me) from the amount of hesitation they show when faced with a tight situation (in front of them). I do a lot of commuting through Auckland traffic, and the hesitating riders invariably do the dumbest things, causing the most problems for other road users...at the other end of the scale are the young (bulletproof) riders who belt through the traffic at ridiculous speeds, causing (unseen) chaos behind them as car drivers react to their passage...
those are the ones who scare me the most, as I have to deal with the fallout of their passage.
Road Courtesy is my other big thing...if another biker is coming up behind me, threading faster than I am comfortable with, I pull back into the traffic and wave them through...but often I end up behind another rider who hasn't even noticed I am on the road. That can be frustrating, waiting to be seen.

A competent rider, moving through the traffic without leaving 'ripples' behind them, is a pleasure to see, and a joy to follow.

[Big Dog]

I vote for this guy.
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The guy following him appears to be having trouble not tying up whatever he is following on.
In spite of knee down.

[ZeroIndex]

The guy following him appears to be having trouble not tying up whatever he is following on.
In spite of knee down.

listen to the sound of the engine... it's also a Goldwing... you can hear the flat 6... Sounds quite a lot like a Nissan Skyline... I would guess that's the pegs or the rear bodyworkscraping, not knee-sliders

[moko]

Smooth riding and observation are the signs of a good rider.It's not only car drivers who don't look,I've had a couple of near misses when bikes have pulled out to filter without thinking to look and see if anyone's already coming through.Also watched an 800 BMW rider get himself into a potentially very nasty situation last year out in the sticks.He went to overtake the car in front while approaching a blind corner,bad enough but I could see the top of the truck heading our way over the top of the hedges and so should he have,not only was he taking a chance but the hazard was there to see if he'd been looking,wrong place to over-take anyway but with something big and bloody solid approaching if only he'd looked more than straight ahead it was just plain stupid.
Easy enough to read the road,tractor tyre tracks in the road,hey guess what leaves those and he might just be around the corner.Gates on fields are there because people and vehicles use them and that cow crap didn't drop from the sky,just common sense really and a good rider will be observing and thinking all the time,not razzing along imagining he's Valentino at Silverstone while not noticing the signs of a possible hazard.

[Drew]

Holly shit, I cant believe how fast those dudes are riding a pair of fargone GOLDWINGS!!!

Those are some "good riders".

[JayRacer37]

a honda was in front AGAIN!??!?!?!

this is getting boring...:laugh:

You havn't been watching MotoGP have you......

[Riff Raff]

Holly shit, I cant believe how fast those dudes are riding a pair of fargone GOLDWINGS!!!

Ditto. that's pretty darned impressive.

[Cr1MiNaL]

is it a good thing to match da riders lines in front of u ? what if he is a total muppet or is willin to risk binnin his bike n ur not? comments....

[Cr1MiNaL]

those are some scary turns mate ! ffs

[Big Dog]

those are some scary turns mate ! ffs

And your doing it on an R6, not a two wheeled RV.

[cowboyz]

is it a good thing to match da riders lines in front of u ? what if he is a total muppet or is willin to risk binnin his bike n ur not? comments....

That is where trust in those you ride with comes in. There a very few guys who I trust to follow closely or to be following me closly but there are a few.